BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 17 - 09:12 AM

Your UNLINKED report came from unidentified "military experts" whose qualifications are totally unspecified, issued by the Israeli Government and published in 'The Jerusalem Post - neither their neutrality or their background research is identified
They could have been local milkmen and newspaper delivery boys, based on the information given.
Which is, of course, why you have not bothered providing a link
It is basically saying "Wot us - war criminals - not us Guv"
It makes the Kahan Whitewash Report on Sabra Shatla look like a ten year study - it doesn't even try to prove anything
First Richard Kemp - now this farce - you have to ne joking!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 17 - 09:07 AM

What military experts?



I didn't say they used them against civilians. I am saying that they are careless as the likely effects on civilians. Hundreds of civilians, including large numbers of children, have been killed or injured by cluster bomblets in southern Lebanon and continue to be so to this day. Last I heard, Lebanese mums and dads don't let their kids play on runways or airfields. Many of the injuries have occurred on farmland. The Israeli regime didn't give a shit, did they?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 17 - 08:32 AM

Some findings from an assessment of the 2014 Gaza conflict by a panel of MILITARY experts:

We   can   be   categorically   clear   that   Israel's   
conduct in the 2014 Gaza Conflict met and in
some respects exceeded the highest standards
we set for our own nations' militaries.    It is our
view that Israel fought an exemplary campaign,
adequately conceived with appropriately limited
objectives,   and   displaying   both   a   very   high   
level of   operational capability as well as a total
commitment to the Law of Armed Conflict.

It is further our view that in the overall conduct of
its campaign, the IDF not only met its obligations
under the Law of Armed Conflict, but often
exceeded them, both on the battlefield and in
the humanitarian relief efforts that accompanied
its operation.

In many cases where the fighting
was concerned, this came at significant tactical
cost to the IDF. It fought under restrictive Rules
of   Engagement and it is obvious that instances
existed throughout the conflict where the IDF did
not attack lawful military objectives on account
of a deliberate policy of restraint.

It further
used its formidable intelligence capability in an
effort to contain its action as closely as possible to
Hamas's assets and protect the civilian population
amid which these were purposely and unlawfully
embedded. Intelligence is not infallible however,
nor is it possible to preclude completely preclude
civilian casualties through precautions enacted in
compliance with the Law of Armed Conflict

Despite the regrettable loss
of   innocent life and the damage to infrastructure
in Gaza our findings are clear in that the overall
outcome   of    the   campaign   in   Gaza   is   entirely   
consistent with the conduct of a professional armed
forces operating within the parameters of the Law
of Armed Conflict when faced with a scenario such
as Israel did in confronting Hamas.

Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the
Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course
as part of   its terrorist-army hybrid strategic
concept, but rather it abused the very protections
afforded   by   the   law   for   military   advantage,   
putting the civilian population of Gaza at great
risk.      Situating   its   operational   headquarters   
in   Gaza's   main   hospital,   the   entire   military
machinery of   Hamas was embedded in civilian
locations,   private   homes   and   a   plethora   of   
sensitive sites such as medical facilities, mosques
and schools.
These included facilities run by
the United Nations in multiple instances, from
which it must be concluded that the relevant
UN agencies are either compromised in their
relationship with Hamas or have temporarily lost
control of   the security of   their facilities.

Many
of   Hamas's actions clearly amount to serious
violations of the Law of Armed Conflict,
including war crimes identified by the United
Nations such as the summary execution of those
it accused of   collaborating with Israel.    Hamas
further engaged in actions that were designed to
interfere with the humanitarian assistance to its
own population.

Hamas not only indiscriminately targeted Israeli
civilians throughout the conflict with extensive
rocket fire, but willfully sought to draw the
IDF into a prepared stronghold amid Gaza's
civilian population. It is important to note that
Hamas actively sought the death of   its own
civilians as an advantageous reinforcement of its
strategic concept aimed at the erosion of Israel's
legitimacy.

No country would accept the threat against its
civilian population that these rockets present to Israeli
population centres.    Members of   the High Level
Military Group, many of whom had never visited the
country prior to our fact-finding visits were united
in   their   view   that   Israel's   efforts   were   entirely   
justified, appropriately conceived and lawfully carried
out, and necessary in the defence of   that country's
national security.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 17 - 07:47 AM

"Any chance he simply reported what he observed?"
This is a summery of what Kemp "observed"
"I was in Israel for much of the summer 2014 Gaza conflict, specifically from 14 July – 8 August and from 27 August – 5 September. During these periods I met, was briefed by and questioned Israeli political leaders, senior officials and Israel Defence Force (IDF) soldiers from general officer down to private soldier. I spent a considerable amount of this time close to the Gaza border where I also met, was briefed by, questioned and observed many IDF officers and soldiers immediately before and after they had been in combat.

I was in Israel also for much of the Gaza conflict in 2012. I visited IDF units and held meetings with many IDF officers, government officials and political leaders before and since then. I have been acquainted with the IDF and the Israeli intelligence services for many years, both during and after my military service."

Lorra lorra balance and neutrality there, I would say!!!
The Times of Israel described Kemp as "supportive" - he certanly chose his informants carefully
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 17 - 07:21 AM

"I can point to many of yours, "
You keep saying that - none so far
You refuse toi link to anything you say so, on the basis of your track record, it is obvious you make them up as youi go along
You even caimed sniper ammuntion which Britain had supplied to Assad was 'the wrong size" after yo had denied the shipment and in spite of the fact that no ammunition sizes had ever been specified - a spectacular double "makkie up"
We know from Medecins Sans Frontieres reportsthat Israli oficers instructed hospital patients to remain where the were then opened fire of the hospital
We know that felchettes, and other fragment missed, along with white phosphorus, were regularly used on civilians, yet you produce the opinions of a soldier implicated with the Israeli regime to claim there were no atrocities
You ignore the comparisons of deaths and of military capability and continue to argue that Israel is the victim in all this
You ignore the fact that even the Imperial maps that were foisted on Palestine bear no resemblance to today's borders after expansion
Your whole argument is an agenda generated makie up
Now - want to have another try at producing mine?
This time try not to confuse those who disagree with you our as telling lies - it's a sign of your obvious megalomania
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 17 - 06:49 AM

"So you drop a bomb that scatters mines over half a square kilometre, timesing that by the number of bombs you drop"

Now why would you do that Shaw? Where would you do it?

Armed forces use a wide variety of munitions, they all have specific applications, "cluster munitions" have a number of functions

1 - Use against runways and airfields
2 - To deny an area to an enemy
3 - To obstruct or direct an enemy by firing them in front of your enemy's advancing troops

See that neither yourself, Shaw, or Jom have come up with any instances of the IDF using them against civilians.

As to Kemp giving "a soldiers answer"? Any chance he simply reported what he observed?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 17 - 06:20 AM

So you drop a bomb that scatters mines over half a square kilometre, timesing that by the number of bombs you drop, and you "fail to realise that this presents mortal danger to innocent civilians" until one day the light dawns, eh? So the fact that 7000 civilians in Vietnam, mostly in the few years after the war, way before the invasion of Lebanon, were blown to pieces by unexploded cluster munitions (to quote just one example) never alerted the US and Israel that they were a menace to innocent civilians? You really are taking denial and fantasy to new heights, Keith. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 17 - 06:14 AM

What "makie-ups" Jom? I can point to many of yours, and have done so in the past, you, Jom, have yet to identify one of mine and guess what? In this exchange you will remain true to form and fail once again to produce one single example.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 17 - 06:10 AM

Tell me Jom when have the Israelis deliberately targeted civilians with cluster munitions?

But here is something for you military geniuses to consider:

1 - In Gaza after all those thousands of unguided rockets and mortars had been fired indiscriminately at Israeli civilians did the IDF attack Gaza?

2 - Did those attacks involve IDF incursions into Gaza?

As we know the answers to both of those questions is YES then common sense will tell you that you do not litter the area you are about to send your troops into thousands of bomblets - to do that you'd have to be a complete and utter f**kin idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 17 - 06:05 AM

"Another claim with no substantive back up Shaw? God but you are so predictable."
As predictable as your refusal to respond to given and well substantiated facts in defence of your own 'makie-ups'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 17 - 05:57 AM

Steve
This "they stopped using them once they realised the danger" is just about the biggest load of hilarious bollocks I've ever read here, which is saying something.

You are wrong and easily shown to be wrong. Munitions are by definition dangerous, but the specific danger of these to civilians was not at first recognised.
That is why no objection to them was ever made, and no militaries refused them until that danger was made evident.
There was then and only then a campaign against them and decent countries like Britain and Israel stopped using, stockpiling or supplying them.

Jim,
No , because when their danger to civilians was recognised, Israel stopped using and UK stopped selling."
I take it you mean "shelling" -

No. I meant selling.

Gaza remains an untried war crime.

Says who? Only enemies of Israel, gullible one.

They also used chemicals and anti-personnel weapons such as flechette missiles
They used no illegal weapons.

These are serious war criminals comparable to the Assad regime.
Says who? Only enemies of Israel, gullible one, and their record is far worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 17 - 05:51 AM

Silly Billy.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 17 - 04:58 AM

Another claim with no substantive back up Shaw? God but you are so predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 17 - 04:41 AM

I just tell you what I think. Teribus. I don't subscribe to the Keith 'n' Bill Chuckle-free Brothers' game of go-on-quote-me-and-refute-me-if-you-dare. In any case I can leave it to you to get so tied up in your own bombast that you refute yourself without realising it all over the place.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 17 - 03:48 AM

"No, because when their danger to civilians was recognised, Israel stopped using and UK stopped selling."
I take it you mean "shelling" - Israel has a major weapons industry- they profit out of death as well as use them to slaughter civilians
They did not give up using them out of compassionate motives, they continued until to do so until they no longer needed to
Gaza remains an untried war crime and Israel has demanded the closing down of the international courts rather than face justice
They also used chemicals and anti-personnel weapons such as flechette missiles
These are serious war criminals comparable to the Assad regime.
"Colonel Richard Kemp:"
Kemp is a soldier and he gave a soldier's excuse for the killings - that the civilian deaths were a result of mistakes rather than war crimes - an excuse for massacres and needless slaughter that is as old as history.
Hi is a known associate of Mossad and what he said is as dependable as that fact indicates it to be.
Trust me - I'm a soldier - I don't think so.
In orer to be proven innocent Israel has to stand trial - and it would rather see the destruction of the international justice system than submit itself to international examination.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 17 - 03:28 AM

What's the matter Shaw still chaffing at the fact that you cannot refute a single thing I have said?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 17 - 05:29 PM

The danger to innocent civilians from cluster munitions has been glaringly obvious since time immemorial. This "they stopped using them once they realised the danger" is just about the biggest load of hilarious bollocks I've ever read here, which is saying something.

Nice appeal from authority from Teribus. Is that really the best you can dredge up?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 17 - 04:46 PM

Ah nice to see the hyena's, or is it the lapdog has arrived safe and sound.

What bile and venom are you referring to Raggy? Don't think that pointing folks towards facts counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 17 - 04:42 PM

Isn't it wonderful after a week away to find Woodcock still spitting out his bile and venom.

Had you blood pressure checked recently Teriblossom?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 17 - 02:26 PM

Think it was Colonel Richard Kemp:

On October 16, 2009, British Colonel Richard Kemp testified regarding Israel's behaviour in the Gaza Strip during Operation Cast Lead (Israel's invasion of the Gaza Strip in 2008-9 ), as part of the UN's evaluation of the Goldstone Report.  Colonel Kemp, a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, who served with the UN and NATO, commanded British troops in Northern Ireland, led UK forces in Bosnia and Macedonia, participated in Gulf War 1, spent considerable time in Iraq during Gulf War 2,  and served on the UK's joint international commission on terrorism

I would imagine that he does know what he is talking about, certainly more so than Shaw or Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 17 - 02:16 PM

Jim,
A defence of pointing to others is totally mindless to defend Israel by doing so just shows that Israel is as bad as the worst – Saudi and Syria currently

No, because when their danger to civilians was recognised, Israel stopped using and UK stopped selling.

Before the danger was known by anyone, how can you blame Israel, and only Israel, for not knowing it either.

Saudi, Syria and Russia are still using. That makes them much worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 17 - 02:11 PM

Well there you have it! Weasel words without backup! Come on, sonny - who said it? Bibi?? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 17 - 02:07 PM

By whom?

By people who know a fuck of a lot more about warfare than a couple of Jew haters on a folk music forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 01:52 PM

MORE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 01:48 PM

the "principled" army
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 01:40 PM

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
Amnesty

HAARETZ


BRUTALITY


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7949152/Israeli-soldier-puts-photos-of-blindfolded-Palestinians-on-Facebook.html
Shades of Camp Zero

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 01:31 PM

"o this I might add that the IDF, recognized as being the most moral army in the world"
According to Israel
"A new report based on testimonies of Israeli soldiers concludes the massive civilian death toll from last summer's Israeli assault on Gaza resulted from a policy of indiscriminate fire. The Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence released testimonies of more than 60 Israeli officers and soldiers which it says illustrate a "broad ethical failure" that "comes from the top of the chain of command." More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority civilians. On Israel's side, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. During the 50-day operation, more than 20,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed, and hundreds of thousands of people are still displaced. We hear candid video testimonies from the soldiers and speak to former Israeli paratrooper Avner Gvaryahu, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 17 - 01:19 PM

"To this I might add that the IDF, recognized as being the most moral army in the world..."

By whom?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 17 - 01:14 PM

While the IDF act to protect and preserve the lives of the population of Israel.....

To this I might add that the IDF, recognized as being the most moral army in the world, goes far beyond the norms of the rules of warfare, as set out in international humanitarian law, to avoid civilian casualties in war whilst the terrorist group Hamas, who instigate the wars, are committing war crimes by using their populace as human shields and storing and employing weapons and munitions from schools, hospitals and mosques and other civilian locations.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 12:50 PM

"I agree, but back then their threat to innocent civilians was not recognised, so it is unfair to single out Israel."
Do not be stupid Keith
Nobody is singling out Israel
I've just given you an example of Saudi using them and Britainn supplying them
A defence of pointing to others is totally mindless to defend Israel by doing so just shows that Israel is as bad as the worst – Saudi and Syria currently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 17 - 11:39 AM

I believe that the use Cluster Munitions is only prohibited by those countries that have signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions. Their use by countries who are not signatories is not illegal.

Gaza is controlled by a terrorist organisation that brooks no opposition and does not believe in holding elections. By choice the leadership of those 20,000 men deliberately implemented a strategy of indiscriminate attacks that specifically targeted Israeli civilians. To engage in such a campaign and think for one nano-second that it would provoke no reaction from the Government responsible for the safety of those civilians is the height of imbecility. They knew full well that retribution would follow as sure as night follows day.

To engage in war is not a matter of equivalence. Israel has the right and the responsibility to employ every military, intelligence and law enforcement unit at its disposal to safeguard and protect its citizens - That sort of makes your list and your indignation irrelevant Jom. Biggest difference though Jom is this. While the IDF act to protect and preserve the lives of the population of Israel, Hamas acts in such a way as to deliberately put the lives of the population they are supposed to govern at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 17 - 11:35 AM

Jim,
Any State that uses cluster bombs is evil
Any state that SELLS CLUSTER BOMBS is equally evil

I agree, but back then their threat to innocent civilians was not recognised, so it is unfair to single out Israel.

Those who still buy, sell and use them should certainly be singled out for disapprobation.
Can we agree on that too?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 17 - 11:30 AM

Steve,
I have addressed all the points in your inhuman post many times ad nauseam and you should know by now that I don't join in with your hectoring quote-me games.

You have had all those points answered ad nauseam, but you still post them so I still answer them.
Nothing "inhuman" in that.

I did not ask you to quote me on anything.
If I did, quote me.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 07:39 AM

"No, but the danger was recognised by no-one, not just Israel, so why single them out."
This is a list of the forces and armament used in Gaza from a 2012 report

ISRAEL
125,000 armed troops
500,000 armed reservists
11,000 armoured vehicles
4000 battle tanks
700 aircraft incl American F16 bombers
60 ships + 3 nuclear submarines
1000s of prohibited cluster bombs

Any State that uses cluster bombs is evil
Any state that SELLS CLUSTER BOMBS is equally evil

Incidentally
From the above report, this is a list of the forces and armaments used by the Palestinians
GAZA

20,000 armed militants
0 armoured vehicles
0 tanks
0 aircraft
0 ships + 0 submarines
0 cluster bombs
1000s Qassam and Grad rockets

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/4-myths-about-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza/#sthash.ytCytyBK.dpuf
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 17 - 05:53 AM

I have addressed all the points in your inhuman post many times ad nauseam and you should know by now that I don't join in with your hectoring quote-me games. I am not obliged to research every country's use of whatever armaments when we are discussing Israel's use of them, any more than I'm obliged to let little Jimmy off for looking up girls' skirts just because little Johnny stole little Lizzie's sweets. I've addressed the issue of the cluster bombs in this thread. Go and find it. Then find a crowded lift and fart like crazy. It's fine to do that because it isn't illegal, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 17 - 05:02 AM

Steve,
What a trashy post.

Saying that requires know knowledge or wit.
Identifying actual errors does. Presumably more than you possess.

So cluster bombs weren't illegal so that makes it ok to scatter the bomblets all over farmland to blow kids' feet off for decades, does it?

No, but the danger was recognised by no-one, not just Israel, so why single them out.
They are still being used in Syria by Russian forces though.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 17 - 04:46 AM

A lovely, measured defence of bunches of terrorists. Nice one, Teribus! 😂

So cluster bombs weren't illegal so that makes it ok to scatter the bomblets all over farmland to blow kids' feet off for decades, does it? What kind of man are you to defend that? I suppose you go into crowded lifts and fart your arse off. That isn't illegal either so that makes it all right, does it?

And I see we're back defending atrocities on the grounds that other countries do similar. Not very grown-up, that, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 17 - 04:01 AM

"Shaw and Carroll posting more anti-Semitic dribble"
You, in dismissing statements by Jews such as Einstein and Ben Gurion, are the antisimite here Bobad
How about crawling out from behind your anonymous barricade and offering some real arguments instead of the cowardly troll insults you havee become noted for
You want to claim antisemitism by us, have the balls and the decency to prove it
Your spineless behaviour only serves to underline the arrogant Israeli stance that has fucked up The Middle East and the dream of the Jewish Homeland.
You and your arrogantly strutting bully of a mate are a matched pair - both perfect examples of the nightmare that the dream of Israel has become under an administration that echoes the behaviour of those who sent six million Jews to their deaths - arrogant, blustering and cowardly.
Neither of you have shown a shred of decency and understanding of the human consequences of what is happening in Israel - neither of you give an indication that you are particularly interested.
You sneer at Jews who disagree with the regime and pass them off as "self-hating" or antisemitic
You have shown a racist hatred for non-Jews throughout all this, dredging some of the most racist right-wing hate sites for your quotes - sites like Muslim Watch and The White Supremist - the very type of people who instigated the Holocaust.
You sneer at "Lefties", yet it was people with your politics who set up the camps and the extermination chambers - and exterminated "lefties" along with Jews, Gypsies, and anybody who didn't fit in to their/your Reich
German right wing capitalism financed the Nazis and used Jews as slave labour - so feel free to call me a "leftie" any time you like; I'd rather be identified with the victims of Nazism rather than with their modern counterparts.
When my girlfriend's mother, a Holocaut survivor, said to me, "Never again, not to anybody", I didn't believe it could happen again.
Now, watching what is happening in Israel, and reading posts from inhuman twats like you, Teribus and Keith (and you evil bastards dare to refer to us as "a pack") I have come to realise that it looks like it could start all over again - last time it was the Jews, this time it's the Arabs.
I can't stop you trolling your cowardly insults from the safety of anonymity and distance, but I'm happy to make use of it as an example of it as an example of what Israel has become in the hands of your right-wing storm-troopers.
You want to prove any of us "Jew haters" - then do so with evidence - not cowardly insults.
It is not us who call Jews "self hating" or "antisemitic" - it is you, alongside every other right wing fascist piece of work in history, So please feel free to continue to defend the Israeli regime in the way you do - it saves us the trouble of dredging up other examples - why bother when we have a blustering bully, a terminal atrocity denier and their pet cowardly little worm troll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 17 - 03:55 AM

Steve Shaw - 12 May 17 - 11:56 AM

1: Well Shaw as you know of the existence of Haganah you should also know when it was formed and why it was formed - direct result of attacks by the Arabs of Palestine in 1920 and the failure of British Forces to protect the Jewish communities.

" After the Arab riots against Jews in April 1920, the Yishuv's leadership saw the need to create a nationwide underground defense organization, and the Haganah was founded in June of the same year"

Irgun came into being in 1931 as a direct result of the Arab riots in 1929. It was a splinter group that was formed by Haganah members who believed that the best defence is a good offense - Haganah were constrained by the instruction to only defend communities and not initiate counterattacks against Arab gangs or their communities.

Haganah and Irgun assisted British Forces during the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt and formed a Jewish Brigade Group that fought the Nazis during the Second World War (Arafat's Uncle on the other hand sat the war out in Berlin as a guest of Adolf Hitler's and raised a Muslim SS Unit - there are photographs of him inspecting it in the Balkans)

On the declaration of independence Haganah and Irgun units formed the IDF. The experience they had gained during the Arab Revolt and during the Second World War proved invaluable to Israel in the 19948/1949 Arab War, which as previously stated was initiated by the Arabs who rejected the 1947 UN Two State Plan - IDF came about as a direct result of Arab aggression.

Lehi or Stern Gang was an extremely small group that split from Irgun in 1940. The split was caused by the British restricting Jewish immigration after the Arab Revolt. The groups aim was to drive the British out of Palestine by force. During it's operational life it was responsible for 48 assassinations (More than Haganah and Irgun combined). Those assassinated were, for the most part, Jews they considered to be traitors with the remainder being specifically targeted British Army and Police Officers. The ONLY time members of Lehi fought and killed Arabs Shaw was during the 1948 Arab/Israeli War that the Arabs had started.

2: What gratuitous aggression on the part of the IDF with regard to Sabra/Shatila Shaw?

3: As Keith A has stated use of cluster bombs was not illegal at the time and their use by the IDF to deny ground to Palestinian and Hezbollah "fighters" firing into Israel IS in direct response to aggression by an enemy. Funny you seem only to condemn the Israelis yet fail to condemn the Argentinians for recklessly mining the Falklands without recording positions, numbers or type, or the Russians for indiscriminately sowing millions of landmines and using cluster bombs in Afghanistan to deny ground to the Mujahideen.

4: Mordechai Vanunu as far as Israel was concerned was guilty of disseminating State Secrets, a traitor. Tell me Shaw where is your condemnation of the U.S.S.R. for the thousands of traitors they executed?

5: Could you please explain how a state can be held in defiance of a Treaty that it is not a signatory of? Could you please explain how it would be possible for a state who acquired it's nuclear capability in 1966 to be in defiance of a Treaty that did not come into existence until 1970?

6: What villages have been razed by bulldozers? Would they be "unrecognised settlements"? If so then the Israeli government has bulldozed illegal settlements of Jews and Arabs alike. If you decided entirely off your own bat to build a house on land you own down in Cornwall Shaw without proper planning authority, the Council would order you to tear it down, if you refused to do so they would come along and bulldoze it down then send you the bill for it. What's the difference? How does a Helicopter gunship raze a village to the ground and where and when was this done?

7: The schools deliberately targeted in Gaza. Were they the ones being used to fire rockets and mortars from? Or the ones being used to manufacture and store the rockets?

8: No condemnation of Egypt for this supposed deliberate impoverishment by blockade of a million and a half civilians Shaw? The solution is simple and has been on the table for rather a long time. Stop the attacks and recognise the right of the State of Israel and it's population to exist free from attack, or threat of attack. The second that that is done all restrictions are lifted.

9: The only people here nakedly "cleaning up" history Shaw are yourself and Carroll who consistently single out Israel for condemnation while ignoring the actions of others and who steadfastly refuse too accept, mention, or condemn acts of aggression and provocation directed against Israel and it's civilian population.

10: Funny how you can never, ever, manage to disprove, counter or refute any of those historical "facts" that that I keep coming out with to explode the myths, half-truths and clichéd misrepresentations that you and Jom are so fond of reeling out.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 17 - 05:28 PM

Shaw and Carroll posting more anti-Semitic dribble I see, good - more crops to harvest, they are such a dependable resource.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 17 - 01:00 PM

"That's an example of the typical rhetoric of Jew haters.!"
It is antisemitic to associate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish Peole - didn'y you know that?
Mindless racist prick
Can't you find any more evidence on your "White Supremist site?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 17 - 12:43 PM

More Bullshit.
1: You have the figures of how many have died - Palestine if fighting a war for its existence - it is heavily outnumbered - Israel is the aggressor

OK Jom you tell me who the aggressor has been:
This gets mindlessly repetitive
What happened before Israel was establishes is totally irrelevant to what is happening today
The Arabs saw giving into the Empire by allowing them to establish a new Jewish state a threat to their homeland so they opposed it – their fears proved to have some foundation as things turned out – you've had the maps.
You carefully omit the fact of the immediate aggression that took place when the British left
A summary of what took place

"According to Benny Morris, Yishuv (or later Israeli) soldiers killed roughly 800 Arab civilians and prisoners of war.[1] Most of these killings occurred as villages were overrun and captured during the Second phase of the Civil War, Operation Dani, Operation Hiram and Operation Yoav.[1][5]
According to Benny Morris, Jewish forces were responsible for 24 massacres during the war. Aryeh Yizthaki attests to 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each. Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period. Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians took place, where no threat was posed to Yishuv or Israeli soldiers.
The main massacres and attacks against Jewish civilians were the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre where 39 Jews were killed by Arab workers after Irgun members had thrown a bomb into the crowd, and the Kfar Etzion massacre where around 120-150 defenders were killed by Arab irregulars, according to some accounts with the participation of Arab Legion soldiers. With 80 deaths, the Hadassah medical convoy attack is also reported in some sources as a massacre because it included the mass killing of medical personnel by Arabs.
Both Israeli archives and Palestinian testimonies confirm killings occurred in numerous Arab villages. According to Morris, the "worst cases" were the Saliha massacre with 60 to 70 killed, the Deir Yassin massacre with around 112, Lydda massacre with around 250 and the Abu Shusha massacre with 60-70. In Al-Dawayima, accounts of the death toll vary. Saleh Abd al-Jawad reports 100-200 casualties, Morris has estimated "hundreds" and also reports the IDF investigation which concluded 100 villagers had been killed. David Ben-Gurion gave the figure of 70-80. Saleh Abd al-Jawad reports the village's mukhtar account that 455 people were missing following the al-Dawayima massacre, including 170 women and children."

By the end of 1948, the Israelis had established themselves as the main aggressors.
Everything beyond that is related to the ongoing seizure of land by Israel
It is utterly nonsensical to divorce the conflict since then from the predatory nature of the Israeli State
"All of the above were the result of attacks on the Jewish population of Palestine, or attacks or threat of attacks on Israel - and you are peddling the MYTH of Israel being an agressive expansionist State"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement_timeline
Whe have been the aggressors from day one - David Ben Gurion summes it up perfecctly
f I were an Arab leader, I would never sign a contract with Israel. It's normal: We took their land. It's true, that it was promised to us by God, but why should they care? Our God is not their God. There were anti-Semites, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was it their fault? They only see one thing: We came and stole their land. Why should they accept that?
Jewish Albert Einstein was a fairly brainy feller - he put the threat of Israel in a nutshell
"The following is a letter Albert Einstein sent to the New York Times in 1948, protesting the visit of Menachem Begin.

It is clear when reading this personal view of Einstein's, written at the time of Israel's formation, that his remarks about Jewish Zionist Terrorists are more harsh and pointed than anything written by today's journalists.

After seeing the world emerge from the Holocaust, Einstein was sickened by the exact same politics that continue to violate the rights of all non-Jews in the Holy Land. This, Israel has no right to do, yet with endless empowerment from American taxes, their inhumanity rules the day.

Letters to the Editor
New York Times
December 4, 1948

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughoutthe world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants ? 240men, women, and children - and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ
HANNAH ARENDT
ABRAHAM BRICK
RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO
ALBERT EINSTEIN
HERMAN EISEN, M.D.
HAYIM FINEMAN
M. GALLEN, M.D.
H.H. HARRIS
ZELIG S. HARRIS
SIDNEY HOOK
FRED KARUSH
BRURIA KAUFMAN
IRMA L. LINDHEIM
NACHMAN MAISEL
SEYMOUR MELMAN
MYER D. MENDELSON
M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY
SAMUEL PITLICK
FRITZ ROHRLICH
LOUIS P. ROCKER
RUTH SAGIS
ITZHAK SANKOWSKY
I.J. SHOENBERG
SAMUEL SHUMAN
M. SINGER
IRMA WOLFE
STEFAN WOLF.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948"

So far you have offered unlined "facts" and belligerent denial
How about some real evidence to your claims
Your mindless name-calling only serves to underline your ignorance
Are you really too stupid to see that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 17 - 12:43 PM

What a trashy post.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 17 - 12:13 PM

Well Steve, there were "terrorists" and atrocities on both sides before Israel was established.
Israel has never been shown to be directly responsible for Sabra/Shatila.
All militaries used cluster bombs back then before there danger to civilians was recognised.
Israel and decent armies have now stopped using them.
Vanunu was treated better than most countries treat people who release state secrets.
The deliberate targeting of schools in Gaza? Why would they?
The Gaza blockade was not to impoverish anyone, though blockade has always been considered a legitimate tactic in war. It was to prevent war materials getting to a self proclaimed enemy.
What ethnic cleansing in Negev?
The wall was not built to steal land, but as a last resort to stop suicide bombings. It succeeded and without the loss of life a military attempted solution would have.
If settlement land is legally bought and paid for, then "settlers" are just what we would call immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 17 - 11:56 AM

Well, Teribus, your sanitised version of history appears to have forgotten to mention Haganah-Irgun, the Stern Gang and the litany of terrorists they contained who made themselves "respectable" by becoming political leaders in Israel. You might also have mentioned gratuitous aggression such as the Sabra/Shatila massacres of civilians, overseen by the IDF, the scattering of hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets over southern Lebanon, the kidnapping and subsequent mistreatment of Mordechai Vanunu for blowing the whistle on Israel's nuclear weapons industry which is in defiance of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, the razing of villages by bulldozers and helicopter gunships and the deliberate targeting of schools in Gaza, the deliberate impoverishment by blockade of a million and a half civilians, attempts at ethnic cleansing in the Negev, the theft of land by building the apartheid wall and the ongoing misappropriation of the more desirable tracts of land for settlements. You're going to have a very difficult time ascribing those acts of aggression to a response to Arab aggression, aren't you? When I see you nakedly "cleaning up" history in this way it leads me to doubt even more your reliability when it comes to any other of the historical "facts" that you're so fond of reeling out.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 17 - 10:57 AM

you are peddling the MYTH of Israel being an agressive expansionist State

That's an example of the typical rhetoric of Jew haters.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 17 - 10:26 AM

Jim Carroll - 12 May 17 - 02:40 AM

More Bullshit.

1: You have the figures of how many have died - Palestine if fighting a war for its existence - it is heavily outnumbered - Israel is the aggressor

OK Jom you tell me who the aggressor has been:

1920 - Arab Bedouins attack Jewish settlers in farms that those settlers bought from the former Ottoman rulers of the Territory known as Palestine.

1921 - The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Yasser Arafat's Uncle) deliberately spread lies about the Jewish population of Jerusalem that sparked off riots where Jews were murdered, their businesses ruined and their houses ransacked.

1923 - 77% of the Mandated Territory of Palestine is given over for the sole and exclusive settlement by the Arabs of Palestine. The new territory is called Transjordan. The remaining 23% of the territory retains the name of Palestine, an area where anybody can settle without restriction related to race or religion.

1929 - The Grand Mufti gets up to his old tricks again, lies through his teeth to incite riots and attacks on the Jewish population. This time the authorities see through the lies and the Grand Mufti is forced to flee.

1936 - The start of the extravaganza known as the Great Arab Revolt against British administration of Palestine and against Jewish immigration that had been authorised by the League of Nations in 1922. The Jewish population aid the British against the Arab rebellion.

1937 - The Peel Commission examines solutions to the problems of Palestine. They conclude that the Arabs of Palestine and the Jews of Palestine will not agree to peacefully co-exist in a single state. The Peel Commission recommends a two-state solution. The proposal is not pursued by the British Administration, the League of Nations does not endorse the findings of the Peel Commission.

1946 - The League of Nations ceases to exist, having been replaced by the United Nations. The British Mandate for Palestine is due to expire in 1948.

1947 - Britain announces the independence of the State of Jordan, formerly Transjordan and declares that it will quit Palestine by 1st August 1948 at the latest, the date for the expiry of the Mandate is revised to 14th May 1948. The UN propose the former solution of the Peel Commission - A two-state solution which the Jews accept and the Arabs reject.

1948 - At midnight on the 14th May 1948 the State of Israel came into existence. The state was officially recognised by the United Nations immediately, the first state to recognise the existence of Israel was the U.S.S.R., the second was the United States of America. On declaring it's existence the State of Israel was attacked by five neighbouring Arab States. The war lasted until 1949 and the war was won by Israel. The UN brokered a ceasefire agreement that resulted in no peace treaty. The Israelis complied with the ceasefire terms and conditions the Arab states did not.

1956 - Between 1949 and 1956 Israel was subjected to attacks by Fedayeen fighters from Sinai, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon. In 1956 President Nasser of Egypt closed the Suez Canal and the Straits of Tiran entrance to the Gulf of Aqaba to vessels trading with Israel. This was in direct contravention of the 1949 ceasefire agreement. The Israelis expelled the Egyptians from the Gaza Strip and from the Sinai to relieve the Egyptian blockade and open up the Gulf of Aqaba. The UN again brokered a ceasefire. Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Sinai, in return Egypt opened the canal and the Gulf of Aqaba to shipping and demilitarised the Sinai Peninsula allowing a UN monitoring force to be positioned there.

1967 - Egypt orders the UN Monitors out of the Sinai, closes the Straits of Tiran again in contravention of the 1956 ceasefire agreement and positions an Army of 100,000 on Israel's border. In agreement and in concert with Egypt other Arab armies are positioned on Israel's borders with Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon. Under such a blockade Israel can last three weeks. Under a barrage of threats from its Arab enemies Israel launches a pre-emptive strike. The ensuing war results in a humiliating defeat for the Arab forces. Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), Shebaa farms, and the Golan Heights. On this occasion the Israelis hold onto land taken, from now on land will be exchanged in bi-lateral peace treaties with Israel's Arab neighbours. Arab leaders meet in Khartoum where they agree that there should be no recognition, no peace, and no negotiations with the State of Israel.

1973 - Israel is attacked without warning by Egypt and Syria in what became known as the Yom Kippur War. This results in another humiliating defeat for the Arabs.

1978- Israel attacked by Palestinians based in Lebanon results in First South Lebanon conflict.

1979 - Peace Accord signed with Egypt.

1981 - Israel attacks Iraqi nuclear facilities

1982 - First Lebanon War

1985–2000 - Second South Lebanon conflict

1987–1993 - First Intifada

1991 - Israel attacked by Iraq

1994 - Peace Accord with Jordan

2000–2004 - Second Intifada

2006 - Gaza Operation Summer Rains
2006 - Second Lebanon War

2008–2009 - Gaza War

2012 - Gaza Operation Pillar of Defense

2014 - Israel–Gaza conflict

All of the above were the result of attacks on the Jewish population of Palestine, or attacks or threat of attacks on Israel - and you are peddling the MYTH of Israel being an agressive expansionist State

2: Yes Jom let us take a look at some maps. Can you show me the Hamas or PNA Map showing the borders of the two-state solution they claim to be fighting for? No didn't think you could.

Map 1 Mandated Territory of Palestine 24th April 1920

Map 2 Mandated Territory of Palestine 24th July 1922

Map 3 1947 UN Plan Rejected by the Arabs of Palestine

3: Israel is an agressive expansionist State who wishes to turn te area into a Jewish State and eject the Arabs
They haven't managed yet, "numbnuts" because, despite U.S. support, they are bound by International law and by pressure from fellow Jews, who are as much opponents to their behaviour as the rest of us are

So let me see if I have got this right according to your rather idiotic and cockeyed view on things. Despite everything, Israel will never be able to achieve its ambitions because of international law, the views of Jewish opponents to the Israeli Government and because of opposition represented as such as yourself. If that is true Jom what's the problem? No need to take any further action.


4: "Are you seriosly suggesting that the Palestinians are as well armed and well trained as the Israelis and they have nuclear weapons tucked away in their back pockets?

Nope - Never said anything even remotely like that - If you think that I did could you please provide a direct quote? (Don't hold your breath folks - He's not going to produce anything)

"Gross stupidity - even for you Jim"

5: The blockade has blocked essential supplies for building - Yet Hamas is suffering no shortage of building materials to construct concrete lined tunnels and underground command centres, shelters and weapons storage areas. In all of this construction, they have not built one single shelter for their civilian population - why is that Jim? By the way Jim is that the blockade imposed by the Israelis? Or the blockade imposed by the Egyptians?

6: is has slowed down essential medical shipments

Not true.

7: it has never been anything other than an attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission

Why would the Egyptians want to starve the Palestinians into submission Jom? If that was indeed the aim of the Israelis then how have they not succeeded? - numbnuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 17 - 09:36 AM

He's stalking, and not for the first time. Let's ignore him, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 17 - 09:00 AM

"Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Shaw."
No need to explain - we can see what you're doing Bobad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 17 - 07:56 AM

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Shaw.