BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 06:02 AM

Well, if travelogues are now "permissible" my happy hunting ground as a teenager was invariably the Peak District. Train out to Chapel-en-le-Frith or Buxton on a Friday evening, a walk to a YHA, all day Saturday walking and then Sunday walk to a train station and back to Manchester.
A walk of 30-35 miles on a Saturday was quite common.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:57 AM

It was all very peaceful on the day we did the Summer Wine tourist trail, Dave, the only disturbance being the wail of my harmonica outside the caff. By the way, my sister has a letter in today's Grauniad. See if you can spot it!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:53 AM

Not "Sue Fisher." It was Jan Fisher, who, to my knowledge, is still painting beautiful pictures and who has a gallery At Pittenweem in Fife. Good for a google. John, her husband and the then warden of Ratagan hostel, is also an artist. I have two lovely Jan Fisher watercolours on my wall which I bought from her for a few quid in 1976.

Don't go telling akenaton and Keith about your praise for my travelogues, Teribus. They both think I should be hanged, drawn and quartered for hijacking this precious thread. And do you see how I twisted things there?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:42 AM

Forgot to ask, Steve. On your visits to your sister have you ever come across any number of elderly men careering down the road in an uncontrolled manner in or on any sort of unlikely wheeled conveyance? Just realised as well. Remember me mentioning the 1930s hikers coming off Kinder early one morning? It could well have been Foggy and a soulmate. Not that far from Holmfirth :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:29 AM

One would think that only labour voters cast their ballots in some regions.

Another thing we need to understand, although some plainly don't, is that there is difference between Labour Party Members and Labour Party Voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:24 AM

And still your imbecilic "Jom"
"To ignorant to know and too thick to learn", as they say in Lancashire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:22 AM

"I think you have to go to Shaw for corrections on spelling, punctuation and grammar Jom."
"Badly written" and typos was your favourite ploy when you ran out of ideas (wich was and is often) and you know it
Roosters coming home
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:14 AM

I think you have to go to Shaw for corrections on spelling, punctuation and grammar Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 04:18 AM

"font confuse"
There you go Teribus - another typo for you to get your gums into
Should read "Don't confuse", of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 04:11 AM

" then its appeal would be targeted at the solid Labour votes of solid Labour constituencies like Sunderland "
It's appeal was to the people whose lives have been fouled up by the fouled up system Britain now has - that's how populism works
Proof of its bigoted nature lies in the rise in racist incidents follwing the result.
Applying it to 'Labour voters' is just right-wing agenda-driven sloganising.
All shades of politics has been debased and disgraced in Britain - 'lying, self-serving politicians is part of the national; psyche.
You keep throwing up these feeble excuses then thinking up yet more when they crash in flames - a war of attrition, just like WW1 and just as crudely fought.
The fact that you still need your insulting rhetoric to deliver you bon mottes is indicative that you are fully aware of the vacuity of your arguments - it makes you look unpleasant and stupid - like all bullies - it always has.
"Jum? That only leaves Jam and Jem to choose from! "
"Doesn't compute, doesn't compute" font confuse his somewhat limited imagination
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 04:01 AM

Whether we get any more of what you refer to as "moronic anti-Semitism shite" with regard to the Labour Party will depend very much on how members of the Labour Party act and whether or not it is reported Shaw, but please by all means keep up the travelogue it sure as hell is an improvement on your usual ideologically biased tripe.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:21 PM

My sister lives three miles away from the Summer Wine locations. I have a photo of me playing the harmonica theme tune outside Sid's café in Holmfirth. You can see Compo inside.

But never mind that. By the way, my last post was sent prematurely and I had more to say but it stands on its own and I can't be arsed. In the seventies I spent three schoolteachers' long holidays in the north-west highlands, namely in Wester Ross and Sutherland. There is nowhere better on God's earth. I climbed Cul Mhor, Cul Beg, Quinag, Ben Loyal, the Five Sisters, the Saddle and more, and we did the notorious Rock Path from Ullapool to Achiltibuie. Mrs Steve joined me (before she was Mrs Steve) in the hot Easter of 1976 and the long, hot summer of that year. What amazing memories. We stayed in youth hostels, our very favourite being Ratagan when John and Sue Fisher were the wardens, and Achmelvich, when Colin Jolly was at the helm - especially Achmelvich.

I could say more and probably will if we get any more moronic antisemitism shite. Innit!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 05:36 PM

Only bespectacled for driving, Teribus, and DtG is even shorter than Gnome (pun intended yet again)

I quite like the idea of a mix of Last of the Summer Wine and Lord of the Rings as well. I think of ake as an Ian McKellen character too, but much more like Freddie in 'Vicious' :-) Not sure if Teribus or Keith are the Jacobi character though. Maybe neither and more like 'The Odd Couple'?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 05:31 PM

"Nothing to do with racism or anti-Semitism"

Hang on a minute Jom, these are both yours aren't they?

Jim Carroll - 09 Feb 17 - 08:29 AM

"Brexit is living proof that bigotry is still alive and kicking in British politics"

AND

Jim Carroll - 09 Feb 17 - 03:34 PM

"Brexit was won on the old "foreigners stealing our jobs" ticket - instilling insecurity rather than racism - populism"

What form of "bigotry"? And if "foreigners stealing our jobs" is "populist" then its appeal would be targeted at the solid Labour votes of solid Labour constituencies like Sunderland where the vote to LEAVE was over 70%. Appeals to the xenophobic and racist sympathies of the Labour vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:40 PM

I quiet like being thought as one of the cast of Last of the Summer Wine. I have an admiration of old duffers who still believe they are young at heart .......... long may they do so.

Thanks Territowel

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:43 PM

And the Brexit vote was brought home by traditional Labour Party voters voting for the UK to LEAVE.

"Brexit is living proof that bigotry is still alive and kicking in British politics"
Jim Carroll

For once Carroll is telling the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:43 PM

Jum? That only leaves Jam and Jem to choose from!

We should ignore the three idiots in this thread whose agenda is to twist meanings and definitions around in an ideology-led campaign to prove that Labour is somehow the cheerleader for antisemitism in this country. The kindest thing would be to assume that they haven't a clue what antisemitism is (it's a tempting thought as none of them ever tries to think it through for themselves, favouring a definition of very dodgy provenance which has been mindlessly adopted by appeasers of Netanyahu and co). Antisemitism is very easy to spot. It doesn't need complicated definitions full of ifs, buts and other qualifications. Wipe Israel off the map and you're attacking Jews because they are Jews. Accuse Jews of conspiring to control banks and big business etc., antisemitic, no argument. Untrue, so don't say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:34 PM

By the way, you have no idea what brought home the Brexit vote - no survey was done on which voters voted for what
Brexit was won on the old "foreigners stealing our jobs" ticket - instilling insecurity rather than racism - populism
That was the position that right wing parties like you own fought on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM

"And the Brexit vote was brought home by traditional Labour Party voters voting for the UK to LEAVE."
Nothing to do with racism or antisemitism
"I call JOM - JOM because that is how he in the past has referred to himself"
You are as big a liar a Keith
It was a typo which your limited imagination forced you to pick up on
You have had this explained numerous times
Now you use it to cover up your ignorance and insecurity - by your own adittance, that's why people behave as you do

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:06 PM

"Brexit is living proof that bigotry is still alive and kicking in British politics"
Jim Carroll

And the Brexit vote was brought home by traditional Labour Party voters voting for the UK to LEAVE.

By the bye on the name thing:

I call JIM - JOM because that is how he in the past has referred to himself. By the way Jim it was Gnome who tried to prove something by introducing Poll statistics in this thread.

I refer to Raggy as Raggy because he seems to get selectively Huffy when certain posters refer to him as such, but is quite OK with others using it.

I refer to Shaw as Shaw as I have nothing but contempt for the man.

I refer to Dave the Gnome as "Gnome" as it saves me from typing "Dave the" everytime I address him - He is rather "Gnomish" though, being short, bald, bespectacled, and rotund.

I must admit that I have enjoyed the holiday and tourist ramblings and the mental images conjured of Jim, Raggy, Shaw and Dave scrabbling about o'er hill and dale bears marked similarities to a mixture of "Last of the Summer Wine" and "Lord of the Rings".

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 09:22 AM

Waste of time Dave
These people are taking it in turns to keep this stupid thread alive - don't help them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 09:10 AM

Applying statistics is a stupid thing to arrive at a conclusion.

I know, Jum. We seem to be talking at cross purposes today! I was using the same statistics to prove the opposite of what was being said :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 08:47 AM

"it was Jim who brought Ann Coulter into this thread."
It was you who brought Brexit into this discussion on antisemitism
"Oh well, that's it all done and dusted then, Brexit here we come!"
We take what we can when we can - just underlining where you stand
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 08:40 AM

Yes you're correct Raggytash and I apologise, but in my defence it was Jim who brought Ann Coulter into this thread. I thought of ignoring him, but tho' the mind was willing , the flesh was weak :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 08:32 AM

Ha Ha ............ like it Dave.

However IF 25% of the population does hold anti-semetic views it doesn't always follow that 25% of Labour voters hold those views.

It could be higher, it could be lower. Unless peoples voting inclination were also be asked we simply don't know, apart from UKip which was stated.

Of course I don't expect some contributors to be able to comprehend this.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 08:29 AM

Brexit is living proof that bigotry is still alive and kicking in British politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 08:27 AM

No he does not Dave - don't fall into this trap
Applying statistics is a stupid thing to arrive at a conclusion.
The Labour Party was formed to combat inequality, injustice and bigorty - whatever its faults, that has remained an essential part of its work right to the present day - as shown by the number of Jewish members who have swept asiide these cliams based on their own experience.
We know that the Conservative party has consistently campaigned on a bigotry ticket - anti immigration, anti foreigner, Britain for the British..... all part of the make up of that Party
When Labour was accused of antisemitism it immediately took it seriously (hence Keith's "serious problem" claim) and held enquiries.
When the Tories were accused of Islamophobia twelve months ago, rather than holding an inquiry, they appointed a foreign secretary notorious for racist gaffes - confirming their position on racism in their party - it is part of what they are
The Tories have not moved far from their pre-war appeasement to antisemitism and wartime "whingeing Yids" stance during WW2 other than to become more sophisticated on the issue.
Bound to knock any Parliamentary statistics sideways.
It would be stupid to take the percentage statistics of, say, the number of Muslims living in Britain - the percentages in say Bradford would bear no relation to those in Chipping Sodbury.
Same with Teribus's statistics.
These people have failed misreably to prove there is a problem of antisemitism in The Labour Party because of a lack of facts to back up their claims.
Teribus is now trying to disprove the facts with hypothetical statistics - that's what he does.
There is no problem in the Labour party until somebody produces factual evidence that there is - it reall doesn't ever get more complicated than that no matter how many smokescreens these people throw up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:42 AM

No, on reflection Jim, he does have a valid point. If we follow his reasoning as above, IE

Labour had 515,000 members, if your percentages are representative that means that 128,750 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
The SNP had 120,000 members,if your percentages are representative that means that 30,000 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
The Liberal Democrats had 76,000, if your percentages are representative that means that 19,000 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
The Green Party (England and Wales) had 55,500, if your percentages are representative that means that 13,875 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
UKIP had 39,000 members of whom 39% hold some form of view that could be termed anti-Semitic which would produce a number of 15,210.
Plaid Cymru had 8,300, if your percentages are representative that means that 2,075 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

As of December 2013 (latest published figure) the Conservative Party had 149,800 members. If your percentages are representative that means that 37,450 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

And then turn that round to those who are NOT antisemitic we get the following figures.

Number of member who are not antisemitic -

Labour - 386250
Conservative - 110550
SNP - 90000
LibDem - 57000
Green - 41125
UKIP - 23790
Plaid Cymru - 6225

So, Labour has 3 times as many members who are not antisemitic than it's nearest rival, the Conservatives and 60 times more than Plaid Cymru.

So, by Teribus's reckoning, The Labour party have the best record which makes Plaid Cymru look like something from 1930s Germany. And yet Labour are still being castigated for trying to make that number even higher. Very odd.

BTW Teribus, you may note that I am using your chosen name. I note your attempt to belittle me (pun intended) by referring to me as 'Gnome'. It doesn't work. As you don't seem to have worked it out, I think I had probably tell you that I am not really a Gnome :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:39 AM

"If 25% of the population hold some antisemitic views the numbers do not matter. What I and many others have been saying all along is that being a Labour party member does not mean you are more inclined towards antisemitism than anyone else. 1 in 4 of everyone across the political spectrum (apart from that nice Mr Farage's party where it is higher) hold those views. The fact that there are more Labour members is a complete irrelevance." - DtG

IF 1 in 4 of everyone across the political spectrum hold anti-semitic views. The fact that there are more Labour members is far from being a complete irrelevance DtG it means that I am more likely to bump into an anti-Semitic Labour Party member than I am an anti-Semitic member of any other party simply by dint of the fact there a more of the former.

If you ever came up with such a thing as a fact Jim, then I am sure once I'd checked it I'd acknowledge it as being a fact. You unfortunately do not know what is fact and in the midst of your numerous multi-coloured, emotive, spittle-flecked rants you tend to got off into auto and come out with total flights of fancy that are now recognised as "Made-up-shit".

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:37 AM

Dave and Raggytash, Teribus's excursion into figures and percentages is even more ridiculous than his usual ploys. Doesn't seem worth wasting time on.

Do learn to think for yourself instead of appealing to authority, Teribus. The definition you choose to cling to has its roots in illegitimate pressurising by pro-Israeli regime pressure groups and is not a neutral document. That has been flogged to death here, but maybe you didn't notice because you were posting above the line. 😂 Do you honestly think that a document that attempts to inhibit criticism of government policy and actions is legitimate? I don't. But people like Jim and I who have done that here yet never once attacked Jews for being Jews, and never agreed with all those vile conspiracy theories that lump all Jews together, have been called antisemitic or worse and you've never uttered a word. It's safer to cling to somebody else's "words of wisdom" than think things through, innit. It's called Keithism. And if thirty countries, etc., have adopted it, that leaves way over 150 that haven't, doesn't it? You do the percentage math. You seem to like that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:11 AM

This feller's as much a troll as his mates Dave
He doesn't believe in facts - "all made up shit" to him- wouldn't bother if I were you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM

No, I am not confusing percentages and numbers, Teribus. That is you. If 25% of the population hold some antisemitic views the numbers do not matter. What I and many others have been saying all along is that being a Labour party member does not mean you are more inclined towards antisemitism than anyone else. 1 in 4 of everyone across the political spectrum (apart from that nice Mr Farage's party where it is higher) hold those views. The fact that there are more Labour members is a complete irrelevance. What is of relevance is that Labour are doing something to reduce that 25% while no-one else is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM

No doubt you can us tell us the mean average, mode average, median average and the range then.

We all know the distortions that can be achieved by manipulating numbers.

Who was it who mentioned Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics ..........

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 06:12 AM

Dave the Gnome - 09 Feb 17 - 04:25 AM

Ah, Ok, that is fine then Teribus. As England has the highest number of people in the UK they are therefore the most criminal race in the UK with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland being veritable paragons of virtue.

There you go again Gnome confusing percentages and numbers.

Now if your YouGov Poll in the Guianard had stated that 25% of the UK's population were criminals then based on the population figures England having a larger population than any of the UK's other constituent parts would have more criminals. But no poll does say that does it Gnome as you are dealing with three separate and different criminal legal systems.

The numbers and percentages on Crime though, as you brought it up:

For England & Wales recorded crimes 4.3 million for a population of 57.8 million. (7.45%)

For Scotland recorded crimes 246,243 for a population of 5.3 million. (4.64%)

For Northern Ireland recorded crimes 99,575 for a population of 1.8 million. (5.53%)

So it does indeed seem in fact that - how did you put it again Gnome - "As England has the highest number of people in the UK they are therefore the most criminal race in the UK".

If you did lump them all together you'd get a percentage of 7.15% for the total population of the UK which would in actual fact be a slight underestimation for England & Wales, a gross over-exaggeration for Scotland and a slightly lesser over-exaggeration for Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 05:17 AM

Ann Coulter is an extremist right wing fascist piece of scum and you quoted her as a serous journalist - and as a backer of your support for Trump (which is very handy)
You are hoist on yor own petard and yor hatred of liberals has finally found its source
You don't like that, do you
Have a good rally now - d'y hear, y'all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 05:15 AM

Apart from the midges, Raggy! A mutual friend lives in the South West of Scotland overlooking Wigtown bay. Not quite the grandeur of further north but very pretty all the same. Have a word with him if you ever fancy going across the water via Stranraer - He is a very gracious host if you decided to stop over there:-) I am sure you know who I mean. Had a lovely coastal walk with him last year around Monrieth where there are lots of connections to Gavin Maxwell of 'Ring of Bright Water' fame including a statue of the otter. The ruins of Kirkmaiden church, where we started and finished the walk, are lovely too.

Glad we are back to sensible again :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:46 AM

You need to be careful on another front Ake, I'm sure it was you who berated me for not keeping on topic.

Having said that the West coast of Scotland is magnificent.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM

The reason I gave you that link Jim, is that almost every Quote can be viewed in context........you don't like that sort of thing Jim, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM

You've already posted that Jim, but I don't suppose you've heard of irony?

From Wiki in a little more depth.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:25 AM

Ah, Ok, that is fine then Teribus. As England has the highest number of people in the UK they are therefore the most criminal race in the UK with Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland being veritable paragons of virtue.

What errant nonsense you come out with at times.

Keith - If you want to dispute the findings of the poll then come up with a better one. Until that time it is the only reference we have and as such is very relevant to the discussion. You are like a used car salesman. If people talk about price, you change the subject to quality. If they talk about quality, you change the subject to price. It is transparent. It is old hat. It doesn't work.

FYI the link I posted did not only only comment on 4 statements. It also said

The CAA's own survey of the of 2,230 British Jews found that 56% felt that antisemitism in Britain has some echoes of the 1930s, which rose to 64% of Jewish people in the north of England.

Did you not get that far or did you purposely not mention that?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:20 AM

Just been putting up a list of quotes from your favourite journalist, white supremist, Ann Coulter Ake - the woman you describe as "The scourge of media Luvvies"
Just to put your gloating into context - here are a few of them again
Jim Carroll

A few more Bon Mots from Annie Get Your Gun - I can see where you fot your hatred of Liberals
"If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president. It's kind of a pipe dream, "
"If I'm going to say anything about John Edwards (Democratic nominee for Vice Presidency 2004, nominee for President 2008) in the future, I'll just wish he had been killed in a terrorist assassination plot."
""I was going to have a few comments about John Edwards but you have to go into rehab if you use the word faggot." --at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference"
On the 9/11 widows
"These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by griefparrazies. I have never seen people enjoying their husband's deaths so much." -on 9/11 widows who have been critical of the Bush administration"
"We need somebody to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens' creme brulee"
"Liberals love America like O.J. loved Nicole."
"We need to execute people like (John Walker Lindh) in order to physically intimidate liberals."
"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots."
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."
"Liberals are stalwart defenders of civil liberties -- provided we're only talking about criminals."
"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"
"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo."
"Press passes can't be that hard to come by if the White House allows that old Arab Helen Thomas to sit within yards of the President."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:53 AM

Oh well, that's it all done and dusted then, Brexit here we come!
The Remoaners have capitulated....or is it a tactical withdrawal?
The Lords have also been warned that their coats are on "Shoogly Pegs" should they try conclusions. :0)

The only embarrassment as far as I was concerned, was the sight and sound of my fellow Scots singing the European anthem.....most of them so-called Nationalists......I am thinking of becoming an Ex member.

Perhaps Scottish Labour may take up the Saltire? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:44 AM

"Of course I never have or would."
Why wouldn't you - you have now accused the Jewish Parliamentarians of covering up antitemitism because "they all love their Party.
Probably the most antisemitic statement made of this forum.
Labor do not admit their guilt and even if they did, that hguil;t world have to be proved,
You have lied youtr way throughout this campaign
You "gave us the evidence of Labour antisemisism"
Hen there was no evidence because the Jews covered it up
Now Labour has afdmitted it despite the fact that all the enquiries exonerated them from the accusations
You are insanely irrational in all your arguments Keith - you don't even agree with yourself.
"They are still the only Party with any complaints to deal with!"
Stupider and stupider
The Tories were accused of Islamophobia nearly a year ago
The only reason they don't have "any complaints to deal with!" is that they have no interest in dealing with such matters,
Utterly mad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM

Percentages Gnome? I understand perfectly and the 25% one you put up from the YouGov Poll printed in the Guardian article means that (if it is correct) one quarter of the people in the UK are anti-Semitic then within the membership of the political parties in the UK the number of anti-Semites in those parties are as follows in descending order:

Labour - 128,750.

Conservative Party - 37,450.

The SNP - 30,000.

The Liberal Democrats - 19,000.

UKIP - 15,210.

Green Party (England and Wales) - 13,875.

Plaid Cymru - 2,075.

So Gnome the political party in the UK which has the greatest number of anti-Semites IF your Poll is to be believed is? - Labour. Not a question of me not understanding percentages Gnome it is a question of you not understanding percentages as applied to numbers - A percentage of 25% of the population applies to the population as a whole.

"All out of step but our Steve" trying to tell us something again I see.

This time it is "The Shaw" definition of anti-Semitism. Thanks but no thanks, I will stick to the one officially recognised by the UK Government and by 30 other international bodies and Governments.

But perhaps if you believe your definition of anti-Semitism Shaw you can explain to us all why it was that members of the Jewish community in the UK who were members of the Labour Party felt threatened at meetings and intimidated into silence when any subject related to the middle-east was discussed? Tell us what the reason was for one young Labour Party member stating that she would feel safer at a Conservative Party Conference than she did at Labour's conference where she was advised that she would need Police protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:30 AM

Steve,
Of course, as you're a man of the opportunist hard right,

That is just a lying smear Steve.
I am an ex-Labour voter hoping to be able to vote for them again sometime.

The picture you paint of a Party of liars, happy to damage or even to destroy the Party over internal differences of view is of a Party totally unfit for office, even that of Opposition.

Dave, the survey quoted in the Guardian was restricted only to four old anti-Semitic clichés, none of which has any bearing on the complaints coming out of Labour, but not coming out of any other Party.
It is irrelevant to this discussion.

Jim,
And you have told us that the Labiour party Jewish organisations are lying about it,

Of course I never have or would.
Instead of making up lies about what I say, give the actual quotes like I do.
That would be difficult for you though, because you can only lie about me.

Can you describe the antisemitism that is taking place and the numvbers concerned Keith

Only those that have become public. I am only concerned that Labour has a serious problem with anti-Semitism according to the leadership and numerous prominent members. Your denials against all that are laughable!

No - of course you can't - the Jewish members have entered into a pact of silence to hide it.

That is a nasty and anti-Semitic lie Jim.

LABOUR IS GUILTY OF NOTHING UNTIL .....

Err, they admit their guilt Jim!

Dave,

...and Labour are still the only party doing anything about it.

They are still the only Party with any complaints to deal with!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:01 AM

...and Labour are still the only party doing anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 02:40 AM

Teribus - Just one word. Percentages. No point in explaining further if you don't understand it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 09:23 PM

" I am now even more convinced that any Labour Party Member I meet is more likely to be anti-Semitic because there's more of them that I would meet on a day to day basis than I would compared to any other Political Party."

Do read this again. It's quite likely the most ridiculous sentence ever typed on this forum. No, really, go on. Dwell on it. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 08:56 PM

Well, Spooks was superb. Poor Tom has been sidelined tonight in favour of the charmless Adam. Damn.

Now, Keith. Here's the lowdown on antisemitism. Are you listening? Good!

1. Antisemitism is the expressed hatred of or threats towards Jews because they are Jews.

2. Antisemitism has nothing to do with criticism of the policies or activities of the Israeli regime. That includes activities such as ethnic cleansing in the Negev or illegal settlement building in the occupied West Bank, or the blatant discrimination against non-Jews, especially Arabs, in Israel, which I've catalogued on several previous occasions.

3. Antisemitism has nothing to do with BDS, which is an international campaign to put pressure on the right-wing ISRAELI REGIME to try to get it to stop discriminating against non-Jews in Israel, the occupied territories and Gaza.   

4. Antisemitism is a very unfortunate natural phenomenon. It is not subject to unnatural, false definitions favoured by blinkered pro-Israel factions. It's very simple. You are prejudiced against Jewish people purely because they are Jews. Nothing else. Nothing to do with countries or their policies.

5. Antisemitism has nothing to do with disagreeing that the state of Israel should have been founded. It is, however, antisemitic to declare that Israel should be wiped off the map, because, if you do, are calling for the destruction of or enforced mass emigration of millions of innocent Jewish people with family roots in Israel.

6. It is not antisemitic to say that you are anti-Zionist. Zionism is a highly political movement. It is not antisemitic to oppose the notion that Jews are entitled to a separate homeland. I hate to say it, and I'm very mindful of the Holocaust, but there is nothing particularly special about 21st century Jews that puts them on a different footing to 21st century anybody else. That isn't to say that Jews should not be treated with respect and with due regard for their distinct ethnicity, but that applies equally to many other groups as well.

7. There is endemic racism in the Catholic Church (apart from Wagner, quite possibly the most important peddler of antisemism in the last 150 years), the Church of England and the Tory party. Not to speak of overtly racist parties such as UKIP. Shockingly, there may be a small amount even in the Labour Party, but, if so, it is confined to a few people who may need a word in their shell-like to put them on the right path. There is a large faction within Labour who want to see Corbyn go. They have discovered that their best weapon is the trumped-up charge of. antisemitism in their ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:56 PM

"Jim has just told us that he believes some are actually lying about it."
And you have told us that the Labiour party Jewish organisations are lying about it, and Haaretz and all the other Jews who say it is part of the Israeli propaganda campaign against BDS
Who are we to believe - the career politicians who wont tell us what the antisemitism is or the ordinary Jewish members
Whoever tells us what we want to believe, I suppose
Can you describe the antisemitism that is taking place and the numvbers concerned Keith
No - of course you can't - the Jewish members have entered into a pact of silence to hide it.
Game over I think Keith
Do you know how those antisemitic views are expressed Teribus -
No - course you don't - it's about as substantiated as your "Bin Laden wasn't a businessman" claims
I do like your keeping your head down while your mate takes all the flak, then coming back when he's reall in the shit - really comradely
LABOUR IS GUILTY OF NOTHING UNTIL SOMEONE SUBTANTIATES THEIR ACCUSATIONS WITH DESCRIPTIONS OF WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GUILTY OF
Not outside of Donald Trump's idea of democracy anyway
Jim Carroll