BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 08:00 AM

Dunno about that Catherine tale, but I think the squashed lady was Margaret Clitherow. I used to get that story mixed up in my childish head with the one about the princess and the pea for reasons I can't explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 10:58 AM

Did you stay in those railway coaches converted into dormitories at Goathland, Steve? We did when we went on a geography trip to Robin Hood's Bay. I remember marking out a piece of beach a yard square, then logging everything we found in it.

That was when I fell in love with RHB, and out of love with geography trips.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 11:40 AM

This thread has obviously been Hi jacked, by a group of trolls. What are all these posts to do with the Labour Party? Perhaps someone from admin would be kind enough to remove the offending posts, as we are continuously being coached by Joe to KEEP ON TOPIC.

I thought this type of childishness had been banished with the Muskets.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 11:56 AM

My car just past it's MOT needing only 1 new tyre. Not bad for 157000 miles. Just to keep things on topic, I had it serviced as well. Biggest cost will be the labour charge...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:01 PM

I will put the topic back on course with this excerpt of a review of the book The Left's Jewish Problem by Dave Rich. It is reprinted from New Statesman

Note the figure of 20 suspended members later rose to 50 after the review was written.



With Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader last year, this particular leftist world-view entered the heart of the party. In 2008, Corbyn wrote of the Balfour Declaration – the UK government's promise to British Jews of a homeland in Palestine – that it had "led to the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and the expulsion of Palestinians . . . Britain's history of colonial interference . . . leaves it with much to answer for." The description of Israel as a colonialist enterprise, rather than a movement for sovereignty through national independence, and the culpability of an "imperial" Britain, encapsulate the twin impulses that drive Corbyn's beliefs about foreign affairs.

The problem, Rich argues, is that it is just a short step from these beliefs to the ideas that Israel should not exist and that its Western supporters, who include most Jews, are racists. Combined with a resurgence of social media-charged conspiracies about Zionist wealth and power, the left has formed an anti-racist politics that is blind to anti-Semitism. Jews are privileged; they are wealthy; they cannot be victims.

Thus, "Zionist" has become not a term to describe a political position but an insult; thus, Jews, unless they denounce Israel (their "original sin"), are excluded from the left that now dominates the Labour Party. When such ideas become normalised, anything is possible. Jackie Walker, the recently suspended vice-chairwoman of the Corbyn-supporting group Momentum, can claim with sincerity that "many Jews" were the "chief financiers" of the slave trade, a modern myth and piece of bigotry popularised by the Nation of Islam's Louis Farrakhan – a notorious anti-Semite – in a 1991 book.

By the middle of this year, as many as 20 Labour Party members had been suspended or expelled for alleged anti-Semitism. At times, Rich appears bewildered. Though he never articulates it, the question "What has happened to my party?" echoes through these pages. Is it a case of just a few bad ­apples, or is the whole barrelful rotten? The answer, Rich concludes convincingly, in this powerful work that should be read by everyone on the left, is sadly the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:02 PM

Out of interest, ake, the thread was hijacked a long time ago. The original thread started with the post

Subject: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:50 PM

Since the thread about 'Whither the Labour Party" has drifted far from home and turned into a rather unpleasant series of skirmishes about matters of peripheral relevance, I thought I'd start up one where we could talk about the current hurly burly. Preferably without getting into slanging matches. But that might be too much to ask. Coherent and even-tempered slanging matches, at least?
..............................

The latest court finding would apear to mean that the NEC could perfectly properly retrospectively bar from voting everyone who has joined the party after any date it chooses to name. Strange.

One thing that strikes me is that the manoeuvre by which recent members were barred from voting - waitng enough of those who would have opposed it has left the room before tabling the motion - was just the kid of "Trotskyite" ploy that Militant were always being accused of. I rather suspect that all those kind of tricks were very much part of theculture of Labour (and other parties) since they were founded.

So, following your logic, everything to do with antisemitism should be deleted as well, as should your post containing, well, nothing to do with the Labour party and the issue raised at the time - IE the voting rules at the time of the last leadership election.

Not that you ever let anything like logic or facts get in your way.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:06 PM

Nah, this kind of childishness has enhanced the niceness of this thread no end, Mr Po-face!

We stayed in a rather grand-looking guesthouse on Scarborough sea-front, Backwoodsman. It was February, bloody cold and I don't think there was much heating on. As it faced east and the sun wasn't out all weekend, it was exceedingly gloomy. All-in-all a very bleak weekend, but it didn't quite destroy my love of natural things. I remember spending hours staring at 10,000-year-old pollen grains down a microscope in the evenings. I amassed a nice collection of plant fossils from the cliffs (bet you wouldn't be allowed to go hacking at them like that these days). A few weeks after we got back, somebody stole them out of my cupboard in the lab, along with my geological hammer. Bastard!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:15 PM

"I will put the topic back on course..."

Nah, we might not let you. We are fed up of this obsession with "the left's Jewish problem," "Labour's antisemitism," etc. We are all too busy celebrating Bibi's visit to London! Now where was I?

Oh yes! Gotta buy a set of four tyres for Mrs Steve's old MX5 on Wednesday, Dave. And my trusty old Focus is making funny noises underneath, no longer drownable-out by turning the radio up, which is my main diagnostic tool for finding out whether a problem is serious enough for further investigation. Could be an expensive week.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:16 PM

Dave, surely the charges of anti Semitism have quite a lot to do with the Labour Party. it is a considerable issue inside the Party.

I am taking no sides here but to say the discussion on Anti-Semitism does not pertain to the LP in this instance is just daft.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:40 PM

Dave, did I ever tell you about the times on that Malham Tarn field course when we suckered one of our mates into driving himself and four more of us down to the Buck in Malham every night? Enabled us partake freely of the jorum, all except him of course, but the price we had to pay was to all get out, pissed, and push his Morris Minor round that nasty hairpin bend on the road back up. More hazardous than you might think after you've sunk a few. It was very inconsiderate of him, we thought, to show up for a field course with his clutch slipping!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:51 PM

Backwoodsman, My son ( a UK citizen)lives and works in Robin Hoods Bay, you could say he LABOURS down there. It is very beautiful as you say. He also has a PARTY in his house now and then. He also enjoys a good DISCUSSION with intelligent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 12:59 PM

It has absolutely fuck all to do with the original topic of vote gerrymandering. It is an issue and as such deserves to be discussed but on it's own thread rather than one where the opening post specifically said ...turned into a rather unpleasant series of skirmishes about matters of peripheral relevance. I thought I'd start up one where we could talk about the current hurly burly (IE "The latest court finding would apear to mean that the NEC could perfectly properly retrospectively bar from voting everyone who has joined the party after any date it chooses to name.") Preferably without getting into slanging matches. If you want o complain about going off topic you should at least be consistent about it and moan about your heroes as well.

Malham is my nearest famous beauty spot now, Steve. I quite fancy walking there when the weather gets better but it will take at least 2, possibly 3, trips utilising the local buses which are, in that area, spasmodic to say the least.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:08 PM

Dave, the discussion has been about anti-Semitism within Labour and all the accusations came from within the Party.
You make yourself ridiculous by claiming that it is not relevant in a discussion about the Labour Party.

You say you have no group, but you and the same group have used this identical tactic before on threads that you all wanted stopped.

2. People do wander off the subject. I don't have control over that

People did not wander off the subject. Your little group all started talking about travel, all at once and out of the blue.
The first time you used this tactic you all started discussing beer.
The same little group of yours.

Now, the Labour peer appointed by Corbyn to lead one of the enquiries into Labour anti-Semitism has spoken of a "widely held view that we do not take antisemitism seriously." and of her disappointment that the anti-Semites she identified in her report have not been dealt with by the Party.

That is new and entirely relevant to the subject.

Steve, you said you would tell us if you really believe that Watson lies against the Party for the Israeli government.
Do you?
Why do you and Jim have such a problem answering such a simple question?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:16 PM

I will repeat the opening post on the original thread for you Keith, even though I did so only a few posts earlier.

Subject: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:50 PM

Since the thread about 'Whither the Labour Party" has drifted far from home and turned into a rather unpleasant series of skirmishes about matters of peripheral relevance, I thought I'd start up one where we could talk about the current hurly burly. Preferably without getting into slanging matches. But that might be too much to ask. Coherent and even-tempered slanging matches, at least?
..............................

The latest court finding would apear to mean that the NEC could perfectly properly retrospectively bar from voting everyone who has joined the party after any date it chooses to name. Strange.

One thing that strikes me is that the manoeuvre by which recent members were barred from voting - waitng enough of those who would have opposed it has left the room before tabling the motion - was just the kid of "Trotskyite" ploy that Militant were always being accused of. I rather suspect that all those kind of tricks were very much part of theculture of Labour (and other parties) since they were founded.

Absolutely fuck all to do with antisemitism and of particular note the phrase "a rather unpleasant series of skirmishes about matters of peripheral relevance" so before you whinge about going off topic you you should really put your own house in order.

You say you have no group, but you and the same group have used this identical tactic before on threads that you all wanted stopped.


No, I don't have a group. And I don't want the thread closed thank you. I am enjoying it.

I suppose we could start a group. What do you think? Raggy on guitar, Steve on mouth organ, me pretending to play concertina. What do you and ake fancy bringing to the party?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:31 PM

Not a bad idea David, you and I can double up on vocals. We can split that LABOUR between us. I'm sure we could have a great PARTY but we would have to have a DISCUSSION about the material we used.

What says you Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:36 PM

Hope you don't mind mey saying so Dave, but that was a very, very stupid thing to do - you really should have stuck with plating with the Mechano set ypu got for your birthday.
These people don't need evidence to push their extremist right-wing claims, nor do they produce any of their own.
You are arguing with people who believe you don't need to specify charges for the accused to be guilty- they make things up as they see fit.
You might as well try to reason with a rottweiler who is about to bite the arse out of your pants.
Good luck and don't forget your anti-rabies shots
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM

The original thread bore the heading "BS Labour Party Discussion."
OK Dave?
The OP took one particular issue but there was no suggestion that it was the only Labour Party issue that was allowed!

I resisted the drifting of that thread and the previous one onto the subject of Israel.
I only wanted to discuss the subject as identified in the thread title.
That is what I have done on this thread too.

If your little pack do not like it you do not have to open it.
If you want to discuss something entirely unrelated to the subject of the thread, you can start a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:41 PM

Jim,
Can you identify one single "extremist right-wing claim" ?

No you can not.
You are making shit up and lying again.

But please prove me wrong.
Put up an example, why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:42 PM

Don't you realiuse how stupid it is to argue antisemitism with people who accuse the Jewish People for the Crimes of the Israeli regime?
A REMINDER OIF WHAT THESE PEOPLE REJECT
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:49 PM

We can but try, Jim. We could not afford a Mechano set though. Ha dto make do with bits of old machinery from t'mill... :-)

If you want to discuss something entirely unrelated to the subject of the thread, you can start a new one.

Nah. Why should you be the only one to maneuver threads from sensible to senseless. I am sure the moderation team will step in if they feel that any breach of etiquette has occurred.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:52 PM

Hands up all those who would rather talk about beer and holidays than "Labour's antisemitism problem" for the eleventy-fourteenth time! Everyone gets one vote except for Backwoodsman who gets ten!

Malham and surrounds is God's own country, Dave. Plenty of rare plants around the Cove and in the dry valley above it. Jacob's' Ladder, Orpine, Roseroot, Herb Paris, Herb Christopher, Lesser Meadow-rue, Meadow Saxifrage, Bird's-eye Primrose, Green Spleenwort, Shining Cranesbill, loads more. There's a car park made largely on flat areas of wet bare rock at Selside that has Hairy Stonecrop. Ribblehead Quarry has the very rare Coralroot Orchid and Colt Park Wood near Ribblehead is full of lovely flora such as Yellow Star-of-Bethlehem. The latter two may be closed off to protect the habitat. Go up Penyghent in April and the limestone outcrops are covered in Purple Saxifrage. Paradise! Or just unpleasant trivia? Damn, can't decide!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:54 PM

"The original thread bore"


Bwahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 01:58 PM

How do you do a hands up symbol?

Sounds grand Steve - Wish I knew what I was looking at. Half the time I cannot tell if it is an orchid or an oak. But you have been and gone and done it now. Mentioning the yellow star of Bethlehem. Surely that is picked by Labour party members and stuck to certain peoples front doors.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM

The OP took one particular issue but there was no suggestion that it was the only Labour Party issue that was allowed!

By the same logic there was no suggestion that anything else was disallowed.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 02:03 PM

"We can but try, Jim."
Been there, Done that Dave - why bother when there are plenty of saner people to argue with
Here you haave someone who thinks it's ok to force refugees to wear identification armbands and suggests that a mass murdered who has just massacred 777 young people "had something to say worth listening to"; an individual who hysterically screams "Jew HaTer" whenever Israel is criticised and someone who tells lies incessantly when he can't get his way
""I asked if YOU believe that THIS politician lies against his OWN PARTY on behalf of the government of Israel."
You are loading this question by ignoring every other fact concerning this man
He is a right wing opponent of Corbyn who has demanded he resign - he would certainly bend the truth at acheive that, as would very other right winger
He is a career politician who has been discovered fiddling expenses - he, and every other politician of his ilk would lie in their teeth to preserve his job
He is a member of Friends of Israel and has led two sponsored delegations there - nice work, if that's what turns you on.
He is opposed to BDS and has been cited in the Israeli press for his support for the Regime's cause.
He is a politician - lying is a recognised part of the job description
Of course he would lie if it served his agenda and his personal interests – does the Pope wear a frock?"
"Steve, do you agree with Jim that he lies against his own Party to help Israel?"
These people are beyond the pale Dave - for ***** sake, leve them to stew in their own bilious hatred
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 03:23 PM

Dave, I cannot believe that you are being serious, do you realise how crazy that sounds

A labour Party discussion should be about anything to do with the labour Party.
To start up a conversation about some completely different subject just to sabotage the thread is extremely bad forum etiquette.

I don't suppose the mods are interested in this thread, but your antics are still an insult to Mr McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 03:43 PM

Well I think it's "bad forum etiquette" to clutter up the forum with yet another "Labour serious antisemitism issue" thread. I think it's good forum etiquette instead to have pleasant little conflabs about reminiscences, wild flowers and the Dales. Think of it as painting over a soiled, flaking, graffiti-riddled wall with a lovely new layer of paint, or covering it over with a beautiful huge poster of the Birth Of Venus. Or the Rokeby Venus. Any Venus!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 04:02 PM

Just on a point of order, Dave and Jim, it's not 'Mechano', it's 'Meccano'. Apologies for my pedantry! 😉

And thanks for my ten votes, Steve. All ten for beer and holidays! 👍😎

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 04:12 PM

This is a folk and blues music forum. It has a BS section in which anything can be discussed. As far as I remember the term BS stands for Bull Shit. That is what these threads are supposed to be and, more often than not, are. To take them seriously is the crazy bit.

But, if it makes you any happier, I am sure most Labour MPs have holidays. Maybe some of them visit the Yorkshire Dales or Italy. Perhaps one or two of them even have an interest in botany. So, everything discussed here has had relevance to a discussion on the Labour party.

Now, Steve, any chance of getting in touch with Banksy to make a proper job of that paint over?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM

On reflection, a damn sight more Labour MPs and supporters go on holiday, visit the Dales and enjoy wild flowers than indulge in antsemitic activities :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 04:20 PM

Thanks BWM. I guess I have to rename my leggot set as well...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:02 PM

LOL! 😄

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:27 PM

Trolls!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:40 PM

Strolls?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:56 PM

Ask not for whom the Bell Trolls. Or vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 06:14 PM

All ten votes in favour? Plus mine and Dave's and Raggytash's if I may be so presumptuous? Plus Greg's, 'appen? Then it's a wrap! They lose! We are the metaphorical Banksies!

(Well at least we're Bill the painter and decorator from up the road. No job too small, strictly cash. Times are 'ard, you know...)

I'll have to check with Jim about his vote...hope he's not doing a Diane Abbott on us...😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 06:29 PM

I support Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 06:31 PM

Me too. Good bloke. But his days are numbered, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 06:46 PM

Good bloke if that`s the kind of bloke that floats your boat. A lot of people including those in his own party will be happy to see his ass out the door. The party would do well to choose a leader who doesn`t cozy up to terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 06:53 PM

It trolls for thee.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 07:03 PM

Didn't Ronald Reagan cosy up to terrorists? Do we count General Pinochet as a terrorist? It wasn't us lefties who cosied up to them, was it?

You're right, Greg. There's an unidentified irritant afoot!

Did I ever tell you about the time in that caravan near Cleveleys when there was a cat fight on the roof in the middle of the night? Damn near drove us home off our hols, it was so terrifying!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 07:16 PM

Anyway, boobs, enough of this. You are interrupting a very serious discussion of holidays, schoolday reminiscences, the lovely Dales and wild flowers. AND the Forty Martyrs, you heathen you! I've decided to ignore you completely in this thread from now on, and I may not be alone in that either. So rattle on, dear boy, rattle thou on! Shake it up, baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 08:00 PM

No wonder the Labour party is in the toilet when you see shit like this which, by the way, is the same shit we have seen from Mudcat's own Labour supporters :

A newly elected official in a local chapter of the UK Labour Party has accused the "Israel lobby" of controlling the British government, the volunteer-led charity the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism reported on Friday.

According to the report, Rebecca Massey, the Interim Chair of Central Hove, Brunswick and Adelaide, has been using the Twitter handle @beckycheabas not only to attack the Jewish state — calling it "pathological" and "barbaric" — but to libel Jews under the International Definition of Antisemitism, adopted by the British government in December.

The Algemeiner


On another occasion, Massey tweeted an article explaining how the "Israel lobby manufactured the UK Labour Party's antisemitism crisis", as if that crisis were not as a result of British Jews decrying egregious antisemitic statements by senior Labour Party figures. Since these allegations did not come from Israel but were from British Jews, the "Israel lobby" is a misnomer: she means a 'Jewish lobby' again deploying what the International Definition refers to as "the myth…of Jews controlling the…government or other societal institutions."

Campaign Against Antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 08:06 PM

These people have no case - either point that out or leave it there.
Theuy ghave no evidence of antisemitism in the Labour Party - end of story
If they had evidence they would have produced it long ago - nor decent society finds anybody guilty of anything without specifying the Charges.
First Keith blamed Corbyn for suppressing the report - the report is in the mands of the Israelis yet they have nor revealed the nature of the so called "antisemitism"
Asked why the Jewish members of Parliament haven't revealed the nature of the accusations, Keith went on to blame the Jewish members for hushing it up "for the good of the party - a 'Jewish Plot' - does that remind anybody of a period of world history.
Why are you even talking to these people - so called defenders of The Jewish People who refuse to comment on Trump's appointing of an extreme antisemite and the fact that Trump's victory is being used to get France's leading antisemitic family in control of that country - LePen was even photographed at Trump Tower, gert these gallant battlers against antisemitism refuse to say a word.
One memorable phrase Thatcher used during her erign of terror as "The oxygen of publicity" and that is exactly what you are giving this sad shower.
For Christ's sake stop calling each other schoolyard names - you are as bad as one another - they are dragging you down to their level.
"Meccano"
Thanks for the heads-up BWM - I lost the box to my set a long time ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 08:13 PM

Hey Dave, I forgot to mention Gordale Scar, star location of the Dales and the Pennine Way (slightly off-route, as I recall), one of the few strongholds of the common juniper and home to a very rare sedge, just round the corner from Malham Cove. But what a place! And just across the road is Janet's Foss hidden in the trees, one of those little amphitheatre waterfalls where you could imagine fairies dancing around in the sprinkly light. Late May/early June on a sunshiny day is the best time to see nature in all its glory and to remember why you're an atheist!

Anybody here know Upper Teesdale?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 09:22 PM

Couple of months ago, Jim, I picked up a copy of the Jewish News in Radcliffe Asda (or was it the Jewish Telegraph, may have got the name wrong). I take my mum shopping to Prestwich and Whitefield when I'm there, an area with a large Jewish population, and we might go into a caff for a butty and a pot of tea. As far as I can see, people there are down to earth and they get on. Bit of a snapshot I know, but I was brought up round there, as was my mum and all her clan and I did a lot of my supping in the pubs round Heaton Park. Can't deny that a lot of people haven't got much time for anyone who are identifiably not of their own ethnic ilk, or whatever you want to call it, but I don't see much outright animosity. You wouldn't think so, though, reading that paper. It read like a single-minded siege-mentality anti-Labour Party campaign document. That stuff was on nearly every page. It made me bloody fume to think how the real enemies of ordinary working people, the sodding Tories, were being given a bye. Any kind of ethnic or racial intolerance has got to be sharply tackled and never overlooked or indulged, but people can't, and don't, and won't, live their whole lives under siege. I'll discuss antisemitism (as long as it's the real thing and not some pro-Netanyahu confection of the type our two resident carriers of the flame peddle) 'til the cows come home, but never letting go of it so that you can live your life is a baleful and negative way to carry on. That's how I see all these bloody anti-Labour, anti-Israeli regime-criticism threads these days. We've had a lot of it and it's well getting on me tits. I like everybody who likes me, whether they're black, white, pink, brown, Jews, Muslims or the missus.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 09:24 PM

"Anyone who ARE," dammit?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 17 - 10:14 PM

It read like a single-minded siege-mentality anti-Labour Party campaign document.

And rightly so, wot! With all the disgusting spew issuing forth from the mouths of party members one would think we're in Weimar bleedin' Germany or sumphin', eh lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 03:18 AM

There is some stuff in Gordale beck that goes right back to the origins of life on this planet. Tufa? Something like that. Anyway, it is the stuff that they reckon kicked off oxygenation. It was on a Bear Grills documentary.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 03:53 AM

My experience is the opposite Steve
I have never read the Jewish press in my life until recently, when I started taking Harretz on line - I should imagine that, like ny other community, the press seldom reflects the opinions of any other community across the board, just those with access to the media.
I moved from Liverpool to Manchester in 1965 and immediately, through my interests in politics and music, immediately came into contact with Jewish people who shared those interests - all either supporters of either Labour or other left-wing groups and many of them active in community groups or trades unions and virtually all from a refugee background.
They were like any other people - good, bad, intermediate.
I had know Jewish people earlier, but it hadn't registered they were Jewish - I was brought up in a family that regarded people as being people without having to hang a label on them (or sew an identification tag on their arm!).
While those who I knew were very aware of their heritage and their history, because of their recent experiences particularly, they did not cut themselves off from those outside their faith but were friends, comrades or fellow trades unionists.
It was from them I learned a little of Jewish recent history and it was eventually from them that I learned to mistrust and eventually despise those right-wingers who are now running Israel - though it lost me a treasured girl-friend in the process.
When my dad was killed in a road accident, four strangers who had seen the announcement in the Liverpool Echo, turned up for the funeral - they had fought alongside my dad in Spain and one of them had gone to Palestine after the war to fight for a new State -
We spent the afternoon talking of their experiences - an education - these people where giants of human beings compared to this little group of inhuman, extremist hate merchants.
I've never been a member of the Labour Party, but I've known enough people who have to realise that it is totally illogical to suggest, without a single practical example, that a party that was founded on the dream of improving society for the better, should be antisemitic - almost as illogical as finding someone guilty of an accusation without specifying what they re guilty of.
For ***** sake let's move on and leave these people to the comfort of their padded cells
Jim Carroll