BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 11:37 AM

Bugger. So if I'm not drinking it'll be just me. Unconscionable. I shall be having a word. The roast lamb last night was utterly sublime and there's enough cold left to go with a jacket spud and some purple sprouting out of the veg plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 11:24 AM

Today it is dull out here on the Connemara, the same could be said for this thread.

I'm off too buy some soda bread on which to place my smoked salmon this evening. I don't know why but smoked salmon is quite cheap in Ireland and some of it is smoked over peat fires giving it a delightful flavour

Might have a pint ot three as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 11:06 AM

What has she got against Mondays!?!?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM

Just read Keith's 10.11am post again, folks. It's a masterclass in how to contradict yourself all over the place in a few short lines. Go and have a lie down, Keith.

"Passing reference" my arse, Teribus. A blatant fib, made over two threads, that he thought he was going to get away with, having forgotten that some of us actually read papers. He's been doing it again this last few days with his "massive over-representation" tosh apropos of two court cases involving travellers. He did it with his cultural implant nonsense. I thought you were a bit of a history buff, Teribus. Well you haven't learned much from Keith's history, have you! 😂

Might take your advice, Dave, though it could be an uphill struggle as Mrs Steve thinks we shouldn't be drinking on Mondays. Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM

Dave, Israel accepts indirect responsibility, so no argument about that.

Jim, you claimed to have "verified facts."
You have produced not one!
You have produced no evidence to challenge Israel's version of events.
Israel's version fits the known facts much better than anything you have put up.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 10:44 AM

"That is Israel's version of events."
Quite
What a pity the facts don't bear out that claim - any of it
All a load of bollocks Keith
How many guilty criminals have stood up in the dock and said "I didn't do it?
You have no case, you never had a case and while yo act like a megaphone propaganist, you never will have a case
You have had a library's worth of evidence and what do you come up with
"ISRAEL'S ENEMIES"
I think they need another lawyer - don't you
Send for Perry Mason
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 10:26 AM

I think you are on a winner there, Steve. Indirect responsibility is still responsibility. There are many people in prison for being indirectly responsible for something and so they should be.

If the weather there is as good as here I reckon you should chalk today up as one of the better ones. Have something extra special for tea and open another bottle of Morrisons best :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 10:21 AM

Jim,
"No. I raised it as an example of how Israel's enemies lie."
No you didn't - you were caught out in a hilarious porkie which I shall be chuckling about for some time to come

No. I raised it as an example of how Israel's enemies lie, along with the example of the Marmara. The exact figures do not matter, only that there was no deliberate killing of civilians or body hiding. They lied about that in both examples, and undoubtedly about Sabra/Shatila too.

Francis Pym slated Israel for their actions at Sabra Shatila

He did not.
"Francis Pym, the British foreign secretary, cleared Israel of blame for the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, two Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut, where, over two days in September 1982, a Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia killed as many as 3,500 people.
Having invaded Lebanon up to Beirut, Israel allied itself with some Christian militias fighting in the Lebanese civil war. During the massacres, the Israeli army had surrounded the camps and fired flares at night to illuminate the dark at the request of the Phalangists.
But Pym, writing an initial assessment in September 1982, said Israel had been guilty only of "incompetence, miscalculation, overeagerness to clear out the remaining PLO and unwise dependence on undisciplined militia".
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/europe/british-national-archives-releases-classified-government-documents

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 10:11 AM

Steve,
The Israeli regime was responsible.

It was indirectly responsible, because it was the controlling power, but it played no role in the massacre.

Sharon's head rolled and he was the defence minister.

Again, only indirect responsibility.
Wiki,
"Israeli Defense Forces were indirectly responsible for the massacre since IDF troops held the area.[65] The commission determined that the killings carried out by a Phalangist unit acting on its own, but its entry was known to Israel and approved by Sharon."
"The commission also concluded that Sharon bore personal responsibility[65] "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge [and] not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed".

That is Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 10:07 AM

"No. I raised it as an example of how Israel's enemies lie."
No you didn't - you were caught out in a hilarious porkie which I shall be chuckling about for some time to come
Your feeble excuse is nearly as hilarious
"Do not be so gullible."
Do not be so stupid as to believe that nobody other than a moron is going to abandon documented evidence on the basis of propaganda shite like "Israel's Enemies"
You read like a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Right-Wing Dictatorship Party"
You are a propagandist - there really is no room for people like you on a debate forum - go book a ***** hall and make your pitch
"He was not treated as a war criminal."
Not by Israel he wasn't - he was awarded for his efforts by being elected Prime Minister
He was protected from charges of war Crimes by an American veto at the U.N.
Wonder how many "innocent" Nazi war Criminals died in South America because they were never caught!!
As for your "No decent democracy" garbage
It has been revealed from secret British Government papers released into the public domain after thirty years that arch-Thatcherite, Francis Pym slated Israel for their actions at Sabra Shatila (though he did fall short of fully blaming them)
Even with this cowardly ommission in mind, this particular "decent democracy" kept his limp-wristed criticism locked away from public gaze for three decades
That's how decent these "decent democracies" that you are now basing your entire case on are
They won't even let us see the slightest criticism of Israel because "they don't wish to get involved in Israel's domestic policies"
Your mate seems to have returned to the W.W.1 trenches - safest place for him short of a 'Home for the Vulnerable Unthinking', I would have thought.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 09:16 AM

What is totally irrelevant Shaw - is your opinion - on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 09:14 AM

Just in case you'd forgotten Shaw:

shaw's WHEATCROFT Saga

How Steve Shaw "makes up shit" and what an acknowledgement and correction of an error looks like:

On the 10th December, 2014 the following text was faithfully and accurately posted by Keith A of Hertford in a thread titled "WWI was No Mans Land" from an article by Geoffrey Wheatcroft that appeared in the Guardian, 9 Dec 2014

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about "lions led by donkeys", that nevertheless made a mark."

This thread was closed on 18th December but the discussion continued on another WWI thread titled "I am not an historian but ..." in which Keith A made a passing reference to the passage quoted above on the 17th December, 2014

The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as "fraudulent."

Steve Shaw questioned this and within an hour of Steve Shaw posting Keith A of Hertford replied as follows:

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:22 AM

Ok Steve. [The acknowledgement]
The Guardian printed a piece, by a Guardian correspondent, that described Taylor and Clark's work as "vulgar" and "fraudulent." [The correction]

IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED BY:

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:25 AM

The Guardian printed a piece, by a Guardian correspondent, that described Taylor and Clark's work as "vulgar" and "fraudulent" respectively. [Further correction making clear what adjective applied to which author's work]

After the above acknowledgment and correction had been given in the "I am not an historian but ...." thread the complete passage from Wheatcroft's article was posted five times which when you couple that to the speed of Keith A's response and correction blows the Shaw theory of it being deliberate misrepresentation clear out of the water - and yet Shaw to this day still attempts to convey the idea that no acknowledgement and correction was ever made, which of course is a downright LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 09:11 AM

It doesn't mean he wasn't one. Blair and Bush haven't been convicted of war crimes but I know what I think. Neither has Assad. Plenty more. I won't go on. When you're in power it's amazing how easily and quickly the ranks can close round you. Decent democracies my arse. Totally irrelevant, and you can't define what you mean by that vacuous expression. Maybe it means countries that Keith thinks agree with Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM

Stop creating smokescreens - you raised Jenin as a diversion

No. I raised it as an example of how Israel's enemies lie.
You just believe it all without question.
Do not be so gullible.

There is no question that Sabra Shatila took place and Israel did what they did

Of course there is.
No decent democracy holds Israel responsible.

Steve, Sharon could and should have been aware of the risk of a reprisal massacre. He lost his job for that. He was not treated as a war criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 08:54 AM

The bell tolled for Sharon but it was his head wot rolled.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 08:52 AM

Blimey, Teribus. And that from a man who says that Keith declaring that Taylor and Clarke were fraudulent was just making a passing reference. Give over, will you. The Israeli regime was responsible. Sharon's head tolled and he was the defence minister. You have no point to make at all. You are nit-picking for the sake of it. Why don't you have a pot at Keith instead, who has just rewritten history?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM

"Fair enough, but I was making a point about the lying not the exact numbers."
No Keith - not "fair enough" - you lied and you are quick enough to evade facts by accusing me of lying
Here you have been caught red-handed and downright stupidly protesting about someone making up casualty figures -and what do you do - you make up casualty figures
You really couldn't make that one up, it is so stupid
I suppose you were too young to have script-wrote for the Goon Show - that would have been a classic!!
"These people lie about what they have seen and what Israelis do."
The Israeli regime lies about what they do - so do you
"They can not be believed without verification."
Neither can Israel or you be believed without verification - neither have provided any verification that can be trusted - both of you have lied prodigiously
"There was no massacre at Jenin."
Stop creating smokescreens - you raised Jenin as a diversion
There is no question that Sabra Shatila took place and Israel did what they did
Please stop smearing the word of a Jewish nurse that was there - whatever you "refer to" you make a point of distorting to suit your own particular agenda - you have done this far too often to be trusted.
"Facilitated implies that the massacre was intended and there was collusion."
To facilitate can equally mean that it made possible the massacre - which is a fact - without Israeli collusion it could not have happened
Whether they planned it in advance is indicated by the Israeli remark that
''We asked the Phalangists to leave,'' said the colonel. ''We don't need anyone to do the job for us"
I have no inttention of allowing you divert away from the main facts, which are, The Sabra Shatila Massacre was a Falangist/Israel joint enterprise - Both were equally responsible, planned or unplanned.
Every abdication is that the outcome was known in advance - so senior officer could possible have believed that letting loose a bunch of armed notorious fanatics whose leader had recently been assassinated on a mass of unarmed people they believed to be responsible for that assassination could possibly have had any other outcome
What do they have for senior officers in the Israeli Army - Captain Mainwaring clones??
The fact (that you have yet to respond to) that the Falangist witnesses who were due to give evidence mysteriously disappeared while in Israeli custody shortly before they were examined, is indicative that we have only had a slight whiff of this rotten carcass of a massacre.   
"I think that massacring hundreds of civilians in refugee camps is a terrible war crime. "
Haven't really been following this, but if that's all Steve said, he is on the nail -
It is a terrible war crime to massacre hundreds (thousands even), whether you actually get the blood on your own hands or help someone else get the blood on theirs on your behalf
Whoever paid for the hit on Kennedy, Lumumba or Allende is every bit as guilty as the one who pulled the trigger
You have a nasty dose of evasive pedantry - again, in order to wiggle away from the main points - again
It's become as habitual a tactic as Keith's "real historians", or phantom witnesses or "decent democracies"
You are nothing if not predictably unimaginative, in fact, "nothing" is probably enough
For you, the war is over Tommy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 07:52 AM

Jim,
Hat's what I said - you lied - you said three

Fair enough, but I was making a point about the lying not the exact numbers.
It was lied that a massacre was committed and eye witnesses lied that they had witnessed it.
Just like the lies told about bodies dumped off the Marmara and of Israeli involvement in Sabra Shatila.
These people lie about what they have seen and what Israelis do.
They can not be believed without verification.
There was no massacre at Jenin.

And yoiu continue to lie tabout Helen Seigal - what wa a nurse doing not traeting patients during a massacre - polishing her toenails?

I do not lie. I refer to her journal.
She was treating casualties of the fighting. She was not aware of there having been a massacre until she left the hospital on the morning of day three.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 07:38 AM

Steve,
The war crime (which is what it was in my opinion) was facilitated by the Israeli regime.

"Facilitated implies that the massacre was intended and there was collusion.
That has not and can not be proved.
The IDF facilitated the militia to deal with fighters in the camp, a legitimate operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 07:29 AM

" Did I say that Israeli troops actually went in and did the killing? No I did not." - Shaw

The following is yours isn't it Shaw:

"I think that massacring hundreds of civilians in refugee camps is a terrible war crime. I think that leaving hundreds of thousands of unexploded cluster bomblets scattered over fields in someone else's country is a terrible war crime. I've heard people say that the Israeli regime (not "Israel" or "Jews") acted like Nazis when they did those things."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 07:24 AM

Duuno about you Steve, but I only respond to this because I've been brought up to believe sick animals are in need of care and attention.
I think it's time we put them in their baskets and let them get some rest, don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 06:05 AM

" 52 and 54 Palestinian"
Hat's what I said - you lied - you said three
And yoiu continue to lie tabout Helen Seigal - what wa a nurse doing not traeting patients during a massacre - polishing her toenails?
An afterthought to Teribus's sinking ship response.
The fact that the Falangist witnesses disappeared while in Israeli custody indicates that, as bad as the known facts are, we are almost certainly seeing only the tip of a much larger iceberg
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 06:01 AM

Bloody Nora.


The war crime (which is what it was in my opinion) was facilitated by the Israeli regime. Without the IDF holding the area and surrounding the camps there would have been no massacre. Did I say that Israeli troops actually went in and did the killing? No I did not. Did Hitler go into concentration camps personally in order to expedite the Holocaust? No he did not. Was Hitler's regime guilty of a Holocaust war crime? Yes it was. Was the Israeli regime guilty of a war crime over those massacres? Well I think it was. Following the outrage, Ariel Sharon was forced to remove himself from office of defence minister. He was found to bear personal responsibility for what happened and he was defence minister in that Israeli regime. Clear enough for you, Teribus? You can argue all you like as to whether you think it was a war crime but nit-picking over who actually went in and did the killing, a matter about which there is actually no disagreement, is not part of that argument. It's just evasion.

Cue Keith coming in with his "decent democracies" idiocy...😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 05:49 AM

Wiki,
"On April 7, senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat suggested to CNN that some 500 Palestinians had been killed in the camp. Five days later, when the fighting stopped, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman told UPI that the number was in the thousands, hinting, along with other Palestinian figures, that Israel had snatched bodies, buried Palestinians in mass graves and under the rubble of ruined buildings, and otherwise conducted on a scale compatible with genocide."
Stories of hundreds of civilians being killed in their homes as they were demolished spread throughout international media.[8] Subsequent investigations found no evidence to substantiate claims of a massacre, and official totals from Palestinian and Israeli sources confirmed between 52 and 54 Palestinians, mostly gunmen, and 23 IDF soldiers as having been killed in the fighting."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 05:41 AM

Jim,
So Helen Shapiro is "repeating propaganda" that was being spouted by traumatised and wounded patients she was treating in the hospital -

No. She was an early 60s pop singer.
Nurse Ellen Siegel did not treat any such victims in her hospital in the heart of the camp.
On the second day they were visited by a film crew, the Red Cross and an Ambassador. No-one was aware of any massacre then. The first she knew was when she left on the morning of day 3.

are you dismissing the word of a Jewish nurse because you are an antisemite?

I do not dismiss her word. I accept her journal as an accurate account. It supports Israel's version of events. She testified to the Kahan Commission.

The finally agreed figure from Jenin was 53 Palestinian dead, most of whom were civilians

That has been disproved. It was the original lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 05:26 AM

"No member of the IDF carried out any massacre in any refugee camp -"
A bit 'Titanic' - that one Teribus
The fact is the so many lies have been told by those defending this massacre that nobody knows for certain who did the killing
One thing we know for certain is that Israel facilitated and assisted it (many thanks for giving me the opportunity to make that point again - happy to oblige at any time)
"Truck loads of bodies were claimed but only about 3 people died"
Keith, just out of interest - I don't for one minute expect a response to this, but why did you find it necessary to lie so stupidly about Jenin?
You appear to have acquired some sort of a "lying implant" that makes you fo it automatically
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 05:17 AM

No member of the IDF carried out any massacre in any refugee camp - that is the war crime that Steve Shaw stated they were guilty of. To use Shaw's own words what he has claimed is bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 05:02 AM

Keith - whoever lied, Israeli or survivor - it doesn't alter the main documented facts one single iota
It is fairly disgusting to deny witness statements in favour of a regime that lies consistenly about everything and hides behind over one hundred U.S vetoes to protect it from fcinf war crimes, but that's what you do
Nit picking on incidentals is how you and your brain-dead friend avoid accepting the inevitable
Piss of with your diversions - they really make no difference to what happened.
So Helen Shapiro is "repeating propaganda" that was being spouted by traumatised and wounded patients she was treating in the hospital - you are as sick as her patients to suggest such a thing
Survivors of a massacre spouting propaganda - you have a sick view of people you don't like.
Based on your previous accusations - are you dismissing the word of a Jewish nurse because you are an antisemite?
You may stick that sick defence up your atrocity denying hole as far as it will go.
Your whole defence of this ethnic cleansind regime is that it must be true because they said so and everybody else, eye witnesses (Jews included) survivor, rescue teams, human rights groups, researchers, reporters...., are all liar if they condemn Israel in any way, shape or form.
You have "showed" nothing - you have denied everything that doesn't fit your defence of these bastards
You are as sick as your friend in the games you play.
At t thought, when 'Grand Theft Auto' runs its course, perhaps there's room on the market for a new one 'Grand Rape, Disemboweling and Mass Murder'
That is the level you are basing your responses
Like Teribus, you have never produced anything and you have defended this atrocity with nothing but wheedling, inhuman denials.
You are both examples of humanity in its lowest form
SICKOS
"Truck loads of bodies were claimed but only about 3 people died"
The finally agreed figure from Jenin was 53 Palestinian dead, most of whom were civilians - and you come up with 3 - which illustrates my point perfectly.
Everybody lies about combat figures - it takes a certain type of sickness of mind to lie to defend massacres decades after the event
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 04:10 AM

Jim,
"More witnesses that lied."
Shite Keith

Not shite but facts as related by the very nurse you just quoted.
No-one in a hospital was shot. Those "witnesses" lied.

Is she lying - why should a Jewish Nurse who was devoted to The State of Israel lie

She is no supporter of Israel, but I do not say she lies.
Her account changed over the 33 years.
"Israel gave its allies in a right-wing Christian militia known as the Phalange free rein to massacre a large number of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians living in the area. "

She is repeating propaganda. Inside the hospital how would she know what was arranged between IDF and the militia?
She made no such ludicrous claim in her journal of those days.

"Israeli troops even shot flares into the night sky to help the Phalangists find their targets."

That is true. Legitimate targets.

Remind me again how many were exaggerated at Jenin??

Truck loads of bodies were claimed but only about 3 people died, and no bodies at all were removed. Every person in the camp was accounted for.

You accuse eye-witnesses, on the spot immediately after after the massacre om making up seeing bodies being buried in the stadium - you offer no proof - you knee-jerk denials

I showed you that so called eye witnesses do lie against Israel, and the story of the stadium does not stand up to scrutiny.

You are given a statement that Israeli officers colluded with the Falangists - you dismiss it an an anonymous blog

No. I asked who the writer was and what their source was.
Can you tell us?

You are given the same information written by a Jewish writer in The New your Times

I showed that some of the "facts" reported were lies. Credibility destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM

What Jom offers as "evidence"
No - what Robert Fisk (or maybe our self-imposed dyslexicly childish and unimaginative friend thinks that should be "Fosk") thinks, based on his findings.
Fisk researched the massacre, interviewed the survivors and the rescuers and came up with his conclusions based on that
The Israeli bulldozers made sure we'll never know how many are buried where.
Is that the best you can come up with?
You obviouly haven't the beginnings of an idea of this massacre - you probably foined in the fray to help your floundering friend
You attempted to call into doubt the use of the stadium
"1: The Stadium in 1982 was in ruins"
You had to ask why the Falangists had to be transported from the airport
"Tell me Jim why would those militiamen and Lebanese troops need transporting from the airport? Where had they flown in from, their holidays?"
This has been covered a dozen times with documented evidence and you hadn't a ******* clue of the facts of the matter!!
That's how much you know, that's how much you've researched and that's how much you've been paying attention to this argument.
I've presented masses and masses of evidence sine I first introduced this massacre into the equation - YOU HAVE PRESENTED NOTHING - NONE - - ZILCH - NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED OF DOCUMENTED AND VERFIED EVIDENCE.
YOU HAVE FERRETED AND SNIDED AWAY TRYING TO DISMISS,. DISCREDIT AND DESTROY THE FACTS OF THIS MASSACRE BY PRODUCING SWEET FUCK ALL OTHER THAN YOUR OWN BIGOTED, LYING, AGENDA DRIVEN DENIALS - YOU CONTINUE TO ATTEMPT, IN YOUR OWN DISTINCTLY PATHETIC WAY, TO DO SO BY TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE FROM YOUR MENTAL HOLE IN THE GROUND, THINKING THIS WITH FILL IN THE GAPS IN YOUR IGNORANCE, INTELLIGENCE AND HUMANITY
This is the mass murder of up to three thousand five hundred human beings we are talking about, men women and children, all without any way to defend themselves, the men shot out of hand, the children taken by the feet and dashed against walls, the women raped then slaughtered by having their throats cut - those pregnant disemboweled and the unborn children ripped from their wombs and having what life they possessed stamped into the ground.
All you pair come up with is sneery and insulting denials of any evidence that implicates the regime that continues its slaughter of anybody who gets in the way of its ethnic cleansing programme.
Hate to point it out, but that sort of defence represents human behaviour at its most obscenely inhuman
Wonder how you are on former Yugoslavia or Rwanda or the Jewish holocaust!!
It all seems like a game to you pair of sickos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 02:59 AM

What Jim offers as "evidence"

1: Robert Fisk - what MAY lie underneath"

2: Unammed American diplomats - "It is POSSIBLE that some lie under the new stadium built on the ruins of Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium.

Hate to point this out to you - numbnuts - but the words MAY and POSSIBLE indicate unproven conjecture NOT evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 07:56 PM

"More witnesses that lied."
Shite Keith
The only one lying here is you
You are not even telling the truth when you say you are putting Israel's case - you are not
You are making it up as you go along.
Even the Israelis are not claiming what you are saying - you don't reference to anything - you are making excuses as you need to
You drag in Jenin as a smokescreen - every combatant who has ever fought a war exaggerates the figures - Israel invariable comes up with the lowest civilian casualty figures - that is fully accepted propaganda
Every writer puts the dead of Sabra Shatila at well over a thousand - an eye witness on site did a rough count came up with 3,500 "probably more, as the number that had been shipped out or buried by the Israelis and Falangists was unknown."
Eyewitness Jewish nurse, who was there and who has since that time researched the massacre in detail and spoken to the survivors, accepts the possibility of 3,500
This is her description of the massacre
One of Israel's most infamous crimes occurred 33 years ago this week.
In September 1982, the Israeli army surrounded the Sabra neighborhood and adjacent Shatila refugee camp in southern Beirut.Israel gave its allies in a right-wing Christian militia known as the Phalange free rein to massacre a large number of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians living in the area. Israeli troops even shot flares into the night sky to help the Phalangists find their targets.
Is she lying - why should a Jewish Nurse who was devoted to The State of Israel lie - why shold she spend the rest of her life dedicated to exposing Israel's murderous role in the massacre?
Remind me again how many were exaggerated at Jenin??
Israeli lying figures puts them by far ahead in the lying stakes
You accuse eye-witnesses, on the spot immediately after after the massacre om making up seeing bodies being buried in the stadium - you offer no proof - you knee-jerk denials
You are given a statement that Israeli officers colluded with the Falangists - you dismiss it an an anonymous blog
You are given the same information written by a Jewish writer in The New your Times - you pull up some shite about snipers that is not under discussion and ignore the N.Y. Times article
You are full of wind and pee Keith.
Not only are you the most extreme racist on this site - Muslims, Irish, Travellers.... but you are now a serial liar who lies publicly.
Is the New York Times writer lying when he describes the massacre and the collusion - if so why?
Perhaps he is one of your "self loathing Jews"
If you have any proof that the eye-wtnesses or thase who researched the massacres were lying - present the proof and stop making things up or avoiding the facts
You have made up lies about this massacre from day one
Like with the Muslim implants, your anti-Irish racism and now your obscene assault on the Traveller community - this will what you are judged as being for as long as you contribute to this forum - a racist, an atrocity denier and a liar
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 07:10 PM

It's a hard life but someone has to do it !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 06:45 PM

Bloody Nora, Raggytash, you'll burn yerself out at this rate! Can't think of a better way of doing it though!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 04:43 PM

Just been listening to a three piece group, father and two sons, two guitars, one banjo all great musicians and singers. Off to another pub soon where the landlord will be playing guitar and a friend of his playing accordion and/or whistle, we will no doubt to asked to join them and, no doubt, be proferred drinks as is the norm here.

The hospitality here knows no bounds!!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 03:47 PM

Jim, From your link,

At Gaza Hospital, on the other end of the camp, matters were also beginning to unravel Friday morning. Just after dawn a nurse on the eighth floor was shot and killed by a sniper, according to witnesses.

More witnesses that lied. No nurse or anyone else was hurt in the Gaza hospital, never mind killed!

This is just more uncorroborated and blatantly false propaganda.
When will you produce these "verified facts" you refer to?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 01:28 PM

Report by Robert L Friedman in NEW YORK TIMES

"The scene was made all the more frightening, the doctors said, by the illumination flares that were being fired by Israeli troops over the camps and dropped by Israeli aircraft. A Sky Aglow With Flares"
"The throng, showing a white flag, moved from the school up Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum to Corniche Mazraa. As they approached the Israeli checkpoint on the main boulevard, kitty-corner to the Barbir Hospital, they were stopped by an Israeli soldier. The soldier, by all accounts, was clearly surprised and probably frightened to see all of these people coming at him.
The soldier shouted in Arabic to the crowd to stay back, then went into crouch position at the corner of a building and aimed his gun at the people, who immediately started shrieking and turned around. Crowd Chooses a Spokesman
The soldier, members of the crowd recalled, then told them to send one person forward to explain what they wanted. A man was chosen and sent to speak to the Israeli.
According to the people, the spokesman told the soldier that Haddad militiamen were slaughtering civilians in the camps and that they were trying to escape.
The Israeli soldier told the spokesman that there was nothing he could do, and added that if they remained in the area, he would open fire.
People began protesting; women started weeping. The Israeli soldier then reportedly fired two volleys into the air to scatter the crowd. At that point, witnesses say, an Israeli tank rolled from Corniche Mazraa onto Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum and chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps. A Witness Corroborates Account"

"Fortunately for the physician, by about 5 P.M. Friday, an International Red Cross convoy made it to the hospital and evacuated everyone left there. The doctor said that at about 5:30 P.M., as he was leaving the facility for safety, he saw at the southern end of Shatila what he estimated to be 80 to 90 bodies. They had been mixed together with sand and were being pushed by bulldozers."

Israeli co-operation with Falangists
"Whatever the Israelis knew about the massacre by Saturday morning, and however disturbed they were by the events, some of the Palestinians say the Israeli soldiers threatened to turn them over to the Phalangists if they did not cooperate. 'Don't Worry About Anything'
Saleh H., 55, quotes an Israeli soldier as telling him at the stadium: ''You are now under the protection of the Israeli defense forces. Don't worry about anything, just be honest with us. If we find out you are not honest . . . ''
He said the soldier added, ''the Phalangists are here.'' Mr. Saleh said the Israeli soldier then motioned toward the area from where the Phalangists had brought them to the stadium. Finally Ahmed, 27 years old, a teacher at the school of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Sabra camp, was asked by an Israeli if he knew any guerrillas."

"A few miles away, around 9 A.M., the first outsiders were entering Shatila and discovering the bodies. The Israeli officer in charge of the stadium interrogations, Col. Naftali Bahiry, was asked if there was any truth to reports that Phalangists were in the area of the camps.
''We asked the Phalangists to leave,'' said the colonel. ''We don't need anyone to do the job for us.''

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 01:20 PM

Jim,
Rather stupid to lie in public about something so accessible Jim.

From that Indy piece you quoted from,
"Today, a Belgian appeals court will begin a hearing to decide if Prime Minister Sharon should be prosecuted for the massacre of Palestinian civilians at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982. (Belgian laws allow courts to try foreigners for war crimes committed on foreign soil.)"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/another-war-on-terror-another-proxy-army-another-mysterious-massacre-and-now-after-19-years-perhaps-9255784.html

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 12:50 PM

Don't blame you for steering clear of this particular can of worms Bobad

Thanks for bringing me up again - I'll make a note of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 12:49 PM

"It concerned testimony given to a Belgian Court considering whether there was evidence to indict Sharon.
The Court decided there was not."
Rather stupid to lie in public about something so accessible Keith
On 24 September 2003, Belgium's Supreme Court dismissed the war crimes case against Ariel Sharon, since none of the plaintiffs had Belgian nationality at the start of the case
You never learn, do you?
I trust you will not respond to this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 12:35 PM

More denials and nothing of your own - checkmate
No comment of the disappearance of witnesses while in Israeli custody?
Checkmate again
Hertford, Hertford Uber Alles (can't do the musical notes but I'm sure Steve can.
Don't blame you for steering clear of this particular can of worms Bobad - I think even Nick Griffin would have trouble keeping up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 12:15 PM

Steve,
You simply can't argue for any sort of conclusion about anything from such a tiny statistical sample

If four of the five cases involve travellers, then they are over-represented. That is a simple fact. You do not need a statistician to work it out.

Jim, your last quote is again from Facebook. Who wrote it?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 12:07 PM

Jim, your final quoted section seems to come from Facebook.
Any idea who wrote it?

The main section comes from an Indy article by Fisk.
It concerned testimony given to a Belgian Court considering whether there was evidence to indict Sharon.
The Court decided there was not.

In all your huge post there is just one person who claims to have seen bodies being buried. Why should we believe her?
If her story was true there would have been some credible witnesses.

Remember that these people lie against Israel all the time.
Remember those nurses on the Marmara who were eye witnesses to Israelis dumping bodies overboard.
They lied. Everyone was accounted for.

Remember the eye witness at Jenin who saw massacre victim's bodies loaded onto a truck and driven off.
He lied.
Again everyone was accounted for.

Try to be less gullible Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:58 AM

If you stop feeding the trolls your friends are going to be mighty hungry 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM

I think it's time we listened to what the lady said Steve
"Stop feeding the trolls"
Makes sense to me

Direct Israeli complicity
"08:00am - General Amos Yaron observes the remnants of the crowd of most elderly people, women and children, who were gathered at the camp entrance at 06:00am. He announces that the women and children may leave. The men are taken to the nearby Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium for interrogation by the Israelis, who warn them that they must "reveal terrorist hideouts" because, "If you do not tell us the truth, you know that the Phalangists and Sa'ad Haddad's men are here!". Twenty-eight dead prisoners are subsequently found in the sports stadium, their hands tied behind their backs."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:52 AM

You simply can't argue for any sort of conclusion about anything from such a tiny statistical sample. The only conclusion I can draw is that you have it in for travellers and will clutch at any straw to blacken their reputation. You've done it with the Labour Party and you've done it with the British Pakistani community. Disgraceful behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:51 AM

In the words of Tom Lecher "everybody hates the Jews"
The question is degree. Yes there are anti Semitic Jews too.

The difference between the anti folk in the UK and the US appears to be profound. That is because the slaughter of millions of Jews happened in your backyard. Americans feel more insulated.

Guilt, reparations, direct or remote involvement, religious teaching are all factors in your seemingly serious UK squabble that looks alive and well.

The US is free of your apparent active hate and over defensive shouting, except for teenagers. In America the new Jew is also kosher and is called a Muslim.

by all means this is sad...but True, with real and fake reasons.

That all of you can not see a way forward and continue to hate each other over the WWII Jewish Question of Hitler, is also sad.

Find something you like about each other or continue as you are, in darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:38 AM

Steve and Jim,
Ten convictions in just three cases going back years.

Going back just to 2010 when the new laws came in.
I have referenced four cases involving Travellers and one that did not.
I have not found any other comparable cases.
Unless you know of dozens more non-Traveller cases, then it is indisputable that they are over-represented, which is my only claim.

I was right, and your abusive attacks on me are without foundation.
Name calling and abuse is what you always do when your case collapses, and it has.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:18 AM

"Stop feeding the trolls!"
Doesn't stop them using this forum for their racist propaganda Jeri - your choice
"I would imagine that very few "travellers" now actually travel and very few of them are "Born on the road""
You imagine wrong
The majority were born on the road, and those that are able choose to Travel - not easy with people like you and Keith around
Those that have settled have been forced 1: The Stadium in 1982 was in ruins"
The Stadium was used as a holding centre for the victims throughout the massacre - every account states that fact
"The smashed Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium was a natural "holding centre" for prisoners. Only two miles from Beirut airport, it had been an ammunition dump for Yasser Arafat's PLO and repeatedly bombed by Israeli jets during the 1982 siege of Beirut so that its giant, smashed exterior looked like a nightmare denture. The Palestinians had earlier mined its cavernous interior, but its vast, underground storage space and athletics changing-rooms remained intact."
"It was a familiar landmark to all of us who lived in Beirut. At mid-morning on 18 September 1982 - around the time Sana Sersawi says she was brought to the stadium - I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, perhaps well over 1,000 in all, sitting in its gloomy, cavernous interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plainclothes Shin Beth agents and a group of men who I suspected, correctly, were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear."
Long after the war, the ruins of the Cité Sportive were torn down and a brand new marble stadium was built in its place, partly by the British. Pavarotti has sung there. But the testimony of what may lie beneath its foundations - and its frightful implications - will give Ariel Sharon further reason to fear an indictment.
Robert Fisk

"Even before the slaughter inside the camps had ended, Shahira Abu Rudeina says she was taken to the Cité Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit. Her evidence might be rejected were it not for the fact that she also expressed her gratitude for an Israeli soldier – inside the Chatila camp, against all the evidence given by the Israelis – who prevented the murder of her daughters by the Phalange."
"Long after the war, the ruins of the Cité Sportif were torn down and a brand new marble stadium was built in its place, partly by the British. Pavarotti has sung there. But the testimony of what may lie beneath its foundations – and its frightful implications – might give Ariel Sharon further reason to fear an indictment. "
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/another-war-on-terror-another-proxy-army-another-mysterious-massacre-and-now-after-19-years-perhaps-9255784.html

Other bodies were found on the Airport Road. But the majority were never recovered. American diplomats told the NY Times that they were feared massacred in southern Lebanon. (It is possible that some lie under the new stadium built on the ruins of Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium. And, according to the UK's Independent newspaper, some dozens are also buried near the Lebanese town of Jounieh [5])

At the Sports Centre, I saw the Israeli military, as well as tanks, bulldozers and artillery, all Israeli. We also saw groups of Phalangists with the Israelis. The Sports Centre was packed with women and children. We stayed there until sunset. An Israeli came then and he said, "Everyone go to the Cola region, whoever comes back to the camp will die." We left, as they fired shots in our direction".
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2004/09/tainted_by_terr.html
I've given you eye witness accounts - where are yours?
And now for a bit of EVIDENCE TAMPERING
Now - have oyu anything to offer other than denials
No?
THought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 10:39 AM

Jim,
Mummy and Daddy aren't going to step in and protect you from the bad kids in the neighborhood. Stop feeding the trolls!