BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:26 PM

fortunately for [Muslims] the statistics also show that these represent but a fraction of all hate crimes

I'm sure that comforts the dead victims' families no end, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:22 PM

Sorry for your butthurt Shaw, I know it's not easy to accept when your ideology gets destroyed by facts but put your man panties on and man up.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:34 PM

"Statistics do show that..." Weasel words.

"...the statistics also show that..." More weasel words.

Before you bite back I suggest you look up "weasel words" on wiki.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:30 PM

Judging from the lie in the first few words of the diatribe posted: Since 2007, Israel has laid siege to the Gaza Strip, we can rest assured that the entire piece is nothing but the usual anti-Semitic propaganda and anti-Israel hate speech that is Carroll's stock-in-trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM

"As usual Jim, you give up trying to make a case,"
I've made a case Keith - you are now reduced to dishonesty
You deny the facts and have resorted with stupid stonewalling
I hav long stopped posting for your benefit Keith - you are what you are and as far as I am concerned, the oly thing to do is allow you to underline what you are yourself.
"You might as well hoist a white flag."
You really can't get anywhere wityh someone who adopts a "win at all costs" attitude to debate.
Wo else believes your argument here - I'm sure even Bobad wouldn't lower himself to taking up your stupid argument
Teribus has had the sense to keep away
Aker - well - Ake is like Billy Connolly's policeman = you only have to ask him a question to confuse him.
You are an extremist and in order to win something you have lied and disitoted more than has ever happened on this forum
You have come a long way since you were reprimanded for posting under a fake name
A sad, individual
Jim Carroll

I realise that the opinions od decent working people are not your thing, but this is the call for BDS by the Communication workers here support going out in Ireland at present - perhaps they were "brainwashed to hate Israel as you claimed Irish children were the British

Welcome / Activists / Campaigns / Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions for Israel
Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions for Israel

Please note that the CWU's support for the Palestinian-led international Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement is not an "Anti-Israel" or "Anti-Semitic" position; it is an answer to Palestinian civil society's call for solidarity. Furthermore, our condemnation of Israel's military actions within Gaza does not constitute, in any way, support for any Palestinian political or military faction.
The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet; the 360km sq. enclave is home to approximately 1.8 million Palestinians. Its borders are closed on all sides, controlled mostly by Israel, excluding a small border in the south which is controlled by Egypt. Israel also controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, leaving no way out for this besieged people, whether in times of incredible violence or in times of relative calm.

1. WHAT ARE THE ISSUES?

The Siege of Gaza (Israeli Blockade)
Since 2007, Israel has laid siege to the Gaza Strip, blockading the enclave by land, sea and air. The Gaza Strip is now essentially an 'open air prison', with the movement of people and goods severely restricted by the Israeli military. These restrictions are so tight that musical instruments, crayons, canned fruit and fresh meat are among the items banned from entering. This blockade has led to severe hardship and poverty; a situation amounting to collective punishment and which is now considered to be a humanitarian disaster. Richard Falk, the UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories said: "Such a massive form of collective punishment is a crime against humanity, as well as a gross violation of the prohibition on collective punishment in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

Home Demolitions
Since 1967, Israel has demolished more than 38,000 Palestinian homes, aimed at collectively punishing Palestinians or making way for illegal Israeli settlements. This practice has continuously been condemned by the United Nations, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.

Illegal Settlements
Since 1967, Israel has continued to build illegal settlements in Palestinian territories it occupies, despite constant condemnation by the United Nations, including the United States, Israel's main supporter. Israelis are encouraged, through generous state compensation schemes, to settle in these colonies. The aim of the Israeli state is to increasingly colonise the West Bank thus making a viable Palestinian state impossible. These settlements are linked up by segregated roads, which Palestinians are forbidden from using.

Separation Wall
In April 2002, Israel began constructing an enormous wall around the occupied West Bank, ostensibly to prevent potential suicide bombers entering Israel. As a result, more than 10% of the West Bank has been annexed, with families and neighbourhoods divided by the concrete barrier. Widely known as the 'Apartheid Wall', the structure stands 8 metres (25ft) high and will span more than 700km once completed. In 2004, the International Court of Justice (Advisory Opinion 131) found the wall to be illegal because it vastly encroached upon Palestinian land and recommended Israel dismantle it. Despite the finding, Israel has refused to comply. The Red Cross, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have also spoken out against the wall.

War Crimes
Israel's war crimes have been widely documented by human rights monitors, civil society organisations within Palestine, Israel and the wider international community, and the United Nations. For example, in 2009 an UN-backed mission of inquiry found that Israel committed "serious war crimes and breaches of humanitarian law, which may amount to crimes against humanity" (Source: Goldstone Report, 2009). Yet Israel is granted impunity as the United States, its closest ally and largest military aid provider, shields it from any decisive action for such crimes and the EU continues trade, research and civil cooperation projects.


                                                                                                            

2. WHY IS THIS APARTHEID?

The 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court defines apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them". The acts which fall within the domain of apartheid include the following: (1) murder; (2) torture; (3) inhuman treatment and arbitrary arrest of members of a racial group; (4) deliberate imposition on a racial group of living conditions calculated to cause it physical destruction; (5) legislative measures that discriminate in the political, social, economic and cultural fields; (6) measures that divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate residential areas for racial groups; (7) the prohibition of interracial marriages; and (8) the persecution of persons opposed to apartheid (Source: Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, Prof. John Dugard).

The acts prescribed to the crime of apartheid read like a catalogue of Israeli practices and policies in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, to wit:

(1) Murder

8,900+ Palestinians killed by Israeli military since 2000 (vast majority were civilians);

(2) Torture

At least 72 Palestinians tortured to death in Israeli prisons since 1967;

(3) Arbitrary Arrest

Israel allows for the arbitrary detention of any Palestinian civilian for up to 6 months without trial and detention orders can be extended indefinitely for additional 6-month periods. In practice, however, many have been detained for much longer periods, some up to or over 7 years. There are now roughly 6,000 Palestinians – including at least 200 children, 17 women and 11 elected Palestinian officials – being held in Israeli prisons or detention centres;

(4) Physical Destruction

The Israeli military made precise calculations of the daily calorie needs of Palestinians in 2008 and restricted the type and amount of food allowed to enter Gaza as a form of collective punishment. This action was taken after Hamas won elections and went on to take control of Gaza in 2007, with Israel subsequently deeming the region a 'hostile territory';

(5) Discrimination

The call to recognise Israel as a 'Jewish State' entrenches the policy of preserving institutionalised Jewish privilege in the majority of the Palestine-Israel region, through ethnic separation and exclusion; Israel operates separate legal systems for Palestinians and Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories and within Israel, Palestinian citizens face a raft of legal discrimination;

(6) Separate Residential Areas

Illegal Jewish settlements – connected by segregated roads – in the occupied West Bank have more than doubled since 2000, exceeding 500,000 settlers living on land beyond the pre-1967 borders. This is in contravention of numerous UN Security Council resolutions deeming these settlements illegal and demanding a halt to construction;

(7) Interracial Marriage

There is no civil marriage in Israel, marriages are only allowed on a confessional basis meaning that without conversion people of different religions cannot marry;

(8) Persecution

The persecution of the Palestinian people has been ongoing since 1947. What was recently witnessed in Gaza was only the latest in a long line of Israeli crimes perpetrated against the Palestinian people.

[Top]

                                                                                                            

3. MYTHBUSTER

(1) Israel does not occupy the Gaza Strip

14% of Gaza's total land and at least 48% of total arable land are taken up by Israel-imposed buffer zones. While 85% of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords is taken up by such buffer zones, reducing fishing areas from twenty nautical miles to three (Source: Boston Globe). Furthermore, Israel controls the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, despite withdrawing its ground forces and settlements from the enclave in 2005 (Source: Human Rights Watch).

(2) Hamas doesn't want a ceasefire but Israel does

A Hamas spokesperson said the group wants the "aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations". The spokesperson went on to say: "we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme" (Source: Al Jazeera). Hamas proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, the day after an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, which had been accepted by Israel but rejected by Hamas (Source: Jerusalem Post, emphasis added). It was also reported that Israel's security cabinet rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry "as it stands" (Source: BBC).

(3) Israel doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian newspaper reported that a second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, with those firing apparently adjusting their aim to target fleeing survivors. Journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: "They are only children" – regarding the murder of four Palestinian boys playing on the beach in July 2014 (Source: The Guardian). The tactics used by the Israeli military in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. A UN Fact Finding Mission concluded from a review of the facts on the ground that it appears to have been precisely what was put into practice (Source: UN Fact Finding Mission on Gaza Conflict, 2009).

(4) Israel is not guilty of war crimes

The Israeli military may have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians – such as young boys and civilian structures, including a hospital – laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes (Source: Human Rights Watch). Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws-of-war (Source: Amnesty International).

(5) Hamas uses civilians as 'human shields'

"I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields" (Source: Jeremy Bowen, BBC). It was reported by The Guardian newspaper that it has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay (Source: The Guardian). In 2013 a United Nations human rights body accused the Israeli military of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields (Source: Reuters).

(6) Hamas constantly fires rockets into Israel

The Times of Israel reported that Hamas launched a series of rockets into Israel, the first time in years the group had directly challenged the Israeli state. The Israeli security forces assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier, killing one person and injuring three. Hamas had not fired any rockets into Israel since 'Operation Pillar of Defense' ended in November 2012 (Source: Times of Israel, emphasis added).

(7) Hamas kidnapped and killed three Israeli teenagers to provoke Israel

It was reported that the Israeli government knew from the beginning that the three Israeli teenagers were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers, from a Hamas-linked Hebron family, acted without the knowledge of Hamas leadership (Source: Jewish Daily Forward).

(8) Israel's blockade is not to blame for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

Israel confirmed to US Embassy officials on multiple occasions that it intends to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis. Israeli officials have confirmed on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge (Source: US State Department).

(9) The Israeli government wants a two-state solution

Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, made explicitly clear that he could never countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan" (Source: Times of Israel).

[Top]

                                                                                                            

4. THE BDS MOVEMENT: BOYCOTT, DIVESTMENT, SANCTIONS

On the 9th July 2005, 170 Palestinian civil society organisations, including trade unions, refugee rights associations, charitable organisations, academics and cultural groups, called for an international movement to impose boycotts, divestment and sanctions on the state of Israel. This nonviolent tactic was inspired by a similar boycott campaign that was used against Apartheid South Africa to isolate the then white supremacist government. Similarly, this boycott campaign is aimed at forcing Israel to guarantee Palestinians their inalienable human rights.

The key demands of the BDS Movement are for Israel to:

(1) End its occupation and colonisation of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantle the Wall

(2) Recognise the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality

(3) Respect, protect and promote the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194

The BDS Movement has been growing rapidly in recent years, with a number of high-profile individuals lending their support, including Pink Floyd's Roger Waters, renowned scientist Stephen Hawking and Ireland's own Damien Dempsey. In 2009, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions reaffirmed its support for the BDS campaign in response to ongoing Israeli human rights violations.

PUT MY NAME DOWN BROTHER
WHERE DO I SIGN

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:04 PM

Unfortunately in Israeli (and lately USA) political discourse there is a great deal of Islamophobia.

Statistics do show that Muslims are victims of Islamophobic hate crimes, fortunately for them the statistics also show that these represent but a fraction of all hate crimes directed against people because of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:48 PM

There are some people around here with big balls and nothing else!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:17 PM

We'll have less of that exposing if you don't mind. There was enough trouble calming the old ladies in Blackpool down after the incident on the tower. Luckily they were the same ones that were at the bingo game with missing balls and photocopied cards. They forgot all about missing balls after that sight...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:04 PM

As usual Jim, you give up trying to make a case, and start making up lies about me personally instead.
You do it every time!
You might as well hoist a white flag.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:37 PM

Jim,
You have the evidence of the massive series of human rights abuses carried out by the Israelis and you have h
ve denied every single one without fail

I have denied none. I just exposed the lack of evidence for any of them.

I hope you enjoy your inhumanity as much as I have enjoyed exposing it.

You are yet to expose any such thing. How could you? It is just another of your lies.
If you are not lying, quote one single inhumane post.
Just one will do. Make it the very worst one.
Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:09 PM

Keith - you are truely one of the most evilly dishonest people I have ever come across
You have the evidence of the massive series of human rights abuses carried out by the Israelis and you have h
ve denied every single one without fail
I hope you enjoy your inhumanity as much as I have enjoyed exposing it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:00 PM

Unfortunately in Arabic political discourse there is a great deal of anti-Semitism.

Unfortunately in Israeli (and lately USA) political discourse there is a great deal of Islamophobia.

Moving right along.......

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 11:34 AM

"My lovely horse" from father Ted would work :-)

'ere. you know I was finishing off reading 'Wyrd Sisters' yesterday? Well, I did and I had fogotten how significant it could be to some of these 'discussions' (Not quotes in an ake sort of way - Just because I am not at all sure they are discussions). The premise in part is that words have a magic all of their own. They can change things for better or worse and in the book someone tries to perform a play to show the witches in a bad light. The plot fails of course and the witches and common sense win through. Shame it doesn't happen like that here :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:55 AM

Blimey, Fields of Athenry is such a dirge. He should have stopped after two verses. If not Delaney's Donkey, Dave, how about Saddle The Pony? That would keep the going-upmarket animal theme alive, goat to donkey to pony! Is there a tune name with "thoroughbred" in it? But don't even THINK about "Ride On." Aargh!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:45 AM

Im not a "fan" of Al Jazeera. I treat all news outlets with the same degree of scepticism, as I've said here several times. Your piece from the Jewish News Online shows the very worst traits of the kind of tabloidism that I always rail against: it poses as a news item, yet it is full of opinion and polemic. Utterly dishonest and dishonourable journalism. Even the Daily Mail manages to be more subtle than that. It's all very well criticising al Jazeera when that's the sort of thing you come up with in response!


That bloody hole in my drive is staring sullenly at me...

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:32 AM

Cor, talk about selective! Bobad's selected chunk from his Thought Co link went on to say, just after where he snipped it:

Nisbet hastens to add that the channel also frequently features representatives from the U.S. and Israeli governments, and that it is widely watched in Israel.

Even given the network's problems, Nisbet, like Baum, believes Al Jazeera, at least in its English-speaking incarnation, should be aired more widely on U.S. television.

"We as a country need to know what other people think of us," he says. "If we really want to make informed decisions about foreign policy and about the opportunities and challenges we face overseas, we need to hear that perspective. Al Jazeera provides a very non-American window on the world that we need to be looking through."

Now I wonder why you didn't us about THAT bit, boobs! 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:30 AM

Easy to see why Shaw is a fan of Al Jazeera:

Al-Jazeera has failed to remove a barrage of anti-Semitism and even online incitement to violence that followed its investigation into London's Israeli Embassy.

The broadcaster was yesterday alerted by Jewish News to the racist postings that includes conspiracy theories about Israel and 9/11, vile references to the Holocaust and claims Israel controls US and UK politics. The comments – which contravene the broadcaster's own rules – were were among 230 posts under an online article about the six-month sting in which an Israeli Embassy employee was filmed talking about 'taking down' foreign minister Alan Duncan.

One user said the 'British turn to warm up the gas chambers again", while another wrote "a good K yke is a gassed K yke". A further reader added: "And your point, Jew boy? I remember my gran pappy telling me how he used to cut the noses off K ykes before kicking them into the ovens. I love my gran pappy very much."

"Israel knew about 9/11," offered another user of the site. "But Jews own america and have brainwashed America."

There was even an example of incitement to violence in the string. "Kill and burn any Israeli or Israeli supporter along with their families. Any Israeli pig left should be sent back to his/her pig farm in Europe."

Jewish News Online

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:25 AM

Were supposedly discussing valid sources and boobs comes up with "Variety," a showbiz mag! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:20 AM

Eric Nisbet, a communications professor at Ohio State University who has studied Arab media and anti-Americanism, says it's important to distinguish between the English and Arabic channels of Al Jazeera.

The English channel has a very cosmopolitan perspective and is staffed largely by former corespondents from the BBC and U.S. networks, he says.

The Arabic channel, not surprisingly, is aimed squarely at an Arab audience and prides itself on giving voice to a wide range of perspectives from throughout the region.

The result? At times it airs the views of extremists, "sometimes without challenging them as much as they should," Nisbet says. "There are definitely some biases in that they are an Arabic channel for Arab audiences."

And yes, there is anti-Semitism, Nisbet adds. "Unfortunately in Arabic political discourse there is a great deal of anti-Semitism. The conversation there about Israel and American foreign policy is very different from our discourse in the U.S."

Thought Co.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:16 AM

Yeah, Keith, and the Daily Telegraph, the Mail and Fox News are all paragons!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:15 AM

...or maybe even 7/4?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:13 AM

Mohamed Fahmy: NY Times

in 2013, Egypt moved to ban Al Jazeera's Arabic service in the country, known as Mubasher Misr, because it was perceived as a Qatari-sponsored propaganda mouthpiece for the Brotherhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:58 AM

Your "BelgiumSwitzerland" link is over eight years old, and your Britain link just tells us that Britain opposes the settlements. So does every country Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:51 AM

You could add 'Delaney's Donkey' to your list, Steve. Anything but Fields of f***ing Athenry (The extra phrasing requires time signature change to 9/8)

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:50 AM

The first hit that comes up from Google:

A former Al Jazeera America employee has sued the news cabler for wrongful termination, claiming he was fired after complaining about anti-Semitic and sexist behavior by a senior executive.

Matthew Luke filed suit Tuesday in New York Supreme Court, claiming that Al Jazeera America exec Osman Mahmud has expressed anti-Semitic statementsand taken discriminatory actions against female employees. Luke's suit claims that after he complained about Mahmud's behavior to human resources in February, he was fired 10 days later.

Luke had served as AJA's supervisor of media and archive management since May 2013, before the news channel formally launched on what had been Current TV.

The suit seeks $5 million in compensatory damages and another $10 million in punitive damages. Mahmud is named as a defendant along with AJA.

AJA said it would not comment on pending litigation. But in a statement it added: "The company takes these matters seriously and will respond in the appropriate forum. Al Jazeera America's commitment to diversity and inclusion is fundamental to its mission, and is boldly reflected throughout the company: in its staff, its leadership and its programming."

The complaint claims that Mahmud, who was recently promoted to senior VP of broadcast operations and technology, went out of his way to exclude women from key meetings and to replace female employees with men in key roles.

Most explosively, the suit claims that Mahmud made anti-Semitic remarks including the statement "whoever supports Israel should die a fiery death in hell."

The suit also claims that AJA executives exhibited an "anti-American" bias in recent months as key executives recruited for the U.S. operation were replaced with Middle Eastern execs from the parent Al Jazeera org, which is based in Qatar and funded by an offshoot of the state government.

The picture of anti-American activity painted in the complaint is sure to be fodder for AJA critics who have blasted the channel from the start as being connected to terrorist and Islamist fundamentalist orgs in the Middle East. Al Jazeera has long maintained that its goal was to build a credible and objective newsgathering operation in the U.S. as a linchpin of its global news network.

Variety

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:50 AM

Jim, your Denmark link is highly critical of the Danish Ambassador who advocated that Israel should be held to different standards than other countries.
Concluding sentences,

"EU still knowingly and purposefully provides substantial direct financial assistance to settlements in occupied territory – in Turkish-occupied Northern Cyprus, that is. So the EU funds the occupation of an EU member state. Turkey's invasion and occupation of Cyprus in 1974 was condemned by the UN Security Council, and the EU's official policy is that the Turkish occupation is illegitimate, and Turkey must completely withdraw. The EU does not recognize the Turkish government in Northern Cyprus. Nonetheless, the EU maintains an entire separate program to direct funds to Northern Cyprus."[4]
It is a clear example of how the EU discriminates against Israel by demanding higher standards from Israel than it demands from itself. The Danish ambassador's statements ambassador's statements serve as a good example of where Ugly Europe (the UE) and the European Union overlap.
How the Danes greatly embellish their wartime past by not mentioning the Danish mass murders of Jews in Eastern Europe is yet another story."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:33 AM

Steve, from Wiki
"An example(of anti-Semitism) cited from earlier years was a report in Al Jazeera that Jews had been informed in advance not to go to work on the day of the September 11 attacks, which was criticized by an October 2001 editorial in The New York Times. An often-repeated example involves an on-air birthday party organized by Al Jazeera's Beirut bureau chief for a Lebanese militant convicted of killing four Israelis, including a four-year-old girl. Al Jazeera greeted Samir Kuntar, released in a July 2008 prisoner swap, as a hero. A more recent example given by the article is the weekly show "Sharia and Life" by Yusuf Qaradawi, an Egyptian cleric who, according to a February 2011 article in The Atlantic, "argues clearly and consistently that hatred of Israel and Jews is Islamically sanctioned."[7][8]"

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:17 AM

Well, boobs, a quick Google betrays the fact that your remark about al Jazeera is not exactly your original thought (I've caught you doing that before 😂). In fact, Al Jazeera is nothing of the sort, as anyone who watches any of their broadcasts (me, for example, when Spooks repeats are not on late at night) can attest. Don't let your blind ideology bite!

That hole in my drive isn't going to patch itself...

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:01 AM

Your Norway link is to a very pro-Israel piece.
Title, "Another Year of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israelism in Norway"

Sadly it is 8 years old so out of date.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:59 AM

Press TV = propaganda mouthpiece of anti-Semitic Iranian regime.

Al Jazeera = propaganda mouthpiece of anti-Semitic government of Qatar.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:54 AM

You might as well say that about any source at all, Keith. Have you got a particular thing about Iranian sources? Or Al Jazeera maybe? Do apprise us as to how you assess objectivity. Not on racial grounds, surely? How about the Mail? The Telegraph? The Jewish Chronicle? I'd say that your total lack of objectivity in these discussions speaks volumes about the weakness of your assessing skills, not to speak of your excellent skills when it comes to biased selectivity.

Bit nippy today in the breeze. Thinking of patching a hole in my gravel drive. May just think about it for another hour or three before I get started....

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:41 AM

One at a time Jim.
I have just used your Sweden link.
"Press TV has interviewed Anthony Hall, professor of globalization at Lethbridge University,"
Not much to do with Sweden then!
Press TV is an Iranian channel, so not much objectivity either!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:31 AM

U.N.
U.N. AGAIN

Want any more evidence Keith
Where's yours?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:23 AM

NORWAY
DENMARK
FRANCE
BELGIUMSWITZERLAND
BRITAIN
BRITAIN PROFITS FROM GAZA

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:54 AM

As it's more of a waltz, you're not wrong there, Dave! You could always try the Paddy McGinty's Goat tune. I dare you!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:48 AM

I'll play Planxty Irwin at Morris Dance practice. That should make a bugger of any Cotswold jigs...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:16 AM

Never mind all that. As it's St Patrick's Day, Mrs Steve's dug out a couple of ould Oirish songs to play at Bude Memory Cafe this afternoon. You probably won't approve, Jim, but one of 'em is Val Doonican singing Paddy McGinty's Goat. Haven't heard it for yonks, but it's surprisingly jolly and has a good jig in it!

The others she's using are M**ly M***ne and D***y B*y (what else!). Managed to persuade her not to play anything sung by Daniel O'Donnell, so that's something at least!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:12 AM

"I listed all the liberal democracies Jim."
My list includes virtually every civil rights and ant-war crime organisation in the world including those of those "decent countries" on your list
They have a word for people who prefer to take the word of the establishment over that of the voices of the groups who protect our rights and freedoms from abuses by the various establishments.
We know where you stand on that one.
Even if we didn't have them, we have the evidence of the daily reports we were getting out of Gaza - the chemicals and anti personel weapons, the hospitals being bombed with patients in them, the mass destruction and the massacres of civilians, the Israeli death squads mopping up the survivors
We've seen film of Palestinians being driven out of their homes because the settlers fancied living there
We've had reports of Bedouins being driven onto toxic sites and having their farms sprayed with chemicals
There is no dispute about what is happening to the Palestinian people - we've seen it
Only a fanatical sadist could possibly defend what is happeing with the silence of politicians
WHERE IS THE ACTUAL SUPPORT FROM THESE "DECENT COUNTRIES"AND IF IT ISN'T FORTHCOMING, WHY NOT? - YOU CAN HARDLY CLAIM THAT ISRAEL DOESN'T NEED IT
Even OBAMA'S America decided not to veto in favour of Israel - now it has a fascist President it has reversed that decision
That says everything that needs to be said.
The silence of politicians is no defence
Pathetic
SWEDEN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:27 AM

I listed all the liberal democracies Jim.
Who is on your list?
Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, non-democratic Arab states (i.e. all of them), ......

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:08 AM

Well, I suppose it has as much to do with the UK Labour Party as do wild flowers, beautiful scenery and good food. Not as interesting though.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:06 AM

It seems everybody who recognises Israel's criminal behaviour is an anti-Semite

In terms of nation states, that does seem to be true.
Do Scandinavian states "recognise Israel's criminal behaviour?"
No they do not.
EU states?
No.
USA or Canada?
No.
Australia or New Zealand?
No.
India?
No.

What do the regimes that do have in common?
They are nasty, undemocratic regimes with human rights records far worse than Israel's.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:50 AM

"Jim, my point was that your posts are becoming more and more incoherent"
If they are, your failure to respond with statements of your own which contradict what I have put up, or at the very least, have the good manners to point out what you don't understand, otherwise your hit-and-run interventions in this discussion are no more than trollish spoilers without the courage to back up what you are criticising.
You do this all the time Ake - you pronounce your support fotr the most ourageously right wing causes and, when challenged, you refuse to offer any substantial argument whatever, using as a feeble excuse that you will not respond to being insulted
Nobody is asking you to - you are being asked to put up an argument for your beliefs - the insulting comes when you refuse to do so
Put your money where your mouth is.
Now - you have masses of information on the charges laid against Israel - all backed up by previous evidence going back years, showing that Israel is in the process of ethnically cleansing the area of Palestinians
These charges have been made by Israeli Jews as well as respectable Human Rights Groups.
You have claimed in te past that you have never taken sides ofver Israel, yet here you8 are
What is it I have put up that is incoherent, or what is difficult for you to understand?
Otherwise, stop making feeble accusations without the courage to substantiate them.
Any moron can respond to argument with insult - let's see how you go here!
I'll take your refusal to respond as confirmation that you have no case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:53 AM

Jim, my point was that your posts are becoming more and more incoherent.
Screaming and shouting insults does not help your cause.

There is no reason why this issue cannot be discussed without "losing the heid".

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 09:18 PM

What Falk actually said about 9/11 which was deliberately misreported by the extremist press
Others who questioned the handling of 9/11 can be found HERE
Jim Carroll

WHY THE FUSS? THE CALL TO ARMS AGAINST UN RAPPORTEUR RICHARD FALK FOR ALLUDING TO GAPS IN THE 9/11 OFFICIAL STORY
A former Princeton international law professor has been condemned by the UN Secretary General and the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations for alluding to "an apparent cover-up" of the events of September 11th, 2001.
On January 11, 2011, UN Special Envoy to Palestine Richard Falk posted on his personal blog an article entitled "Interrogating the Arizona Killings from a Safe Distance."
Dr. Falk made a tangential point in his blog-post that governments too often abuse their authority by treating "awkward knowledge as a matter of state secrets".
To illustrate the point, he referred to gaps and contradictions in the official account of the 9/11 attacks, which have been documented in the scholarly works of Dr. David Ray Griffin, a professor emeritus of philosophy of religion and theology.
"What seems most disturbing about the 9/11 controversy is the widespread aversion by government and media to the evidence that suggests, at the very least, the need for an independent investigation that proceeds with no holds barred," wrote Falk.
On January 20th, executive director Hillel Neuer of UN Watch, a European NGO, called upon UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to condemn the remarks made by Falk, and to fire him, claiming that Falk had "endorsed the conspiracy theory that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were orchestrated by the U.S. government and not Al Qaeda terrorists."
On January 24th, in a reply to Hillel Neuer, Vijay Nambiar, Ban Ki-moon's Chief of Staff, responded that the Secretary-General "condemns these remarks. He has repeatedly stated his view that any such suggestion is preposterous — and an affront to the memory of the more than 3,000 people who died in the attack."
The US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, called for Falk's removal, stating that "Mr. Falk's comments are despicable and deeply offensive, and I condemn them in the strongest terms."
Surely, in light of what Falk actually said, these indignant cries on behalf of the victims seem more than a little apoplectic.
If Falk's suggestions were so "preposterous" and "offensive", they might have been dismissed as the ravings of a madman.
So why did officials bring out their cannons to shoot at a sparrow?
Well, turning to the work of Professor Griffin we find that there were 115 omissions and distortions in the 9/11 Commission Report, though Falk did not, in his brief remarks, provide details.
A search of the Internet reveals 12 professional organizations calling for a new investigation, including Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (with over 1,400 professional members), Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, Intelligence Officers for 9/11 Truth, Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, Medical Professionals for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth, Military Officers for 9/11 Truth, and Scientists for 9/11 Truth.
In August, 2005, the New York Times printed the oral testimonies of 118 firefighters and emergency workers who reported stunning, graphic evidence of enormous explosions, including mysterious blasts in the deep sub-basements of the buildings long before the towers fell.
More recently, a nine-author peer-reviewed study, which showed that the World Trade Center dust appeared to contain residue of explosive material (nanothermite), made headlines for the first week of February 2010 in major Danish newspapers.
This news never reached the North American media.
A December 2010 poll by the prestigious Emnid Institute showed that 89.5% of Germans doubt the US official story about the September 11th attacks.
The 9/11 commissioners themselves, in a 2008 op-ed piece to the New York Times, bemoaned the withholding of witness evidence to the 9/11 Commission by the CIA: "What we do know is that government officials decided not to inform a lawfully constituted body, created by Congress and the president, to investigate one the greatest tragedies to confront this country. We call that obstruction."
Perhaps this sparrow is worth a cannon or two.
In other words, was Falk attacked so strongly to try to make people fear suggesting in public even the possibility that the official story is problematic?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 08:55 PM

"Going by these two recent "contributions" from Jim, I fear you are correct Bobad."
I take it you have become one of the Trolls fan club
I don't suppose you would like to put up an argument to what I produced
No?
Thought not Not you style.!!
It seems everybody who recognises Israel's criminal behaviour is an antisemite
Just as some people who are happy to wallow in their Islamophobia are happy to see the ethnic cleansing of Arabs and are incapable of recognising the fact that the world has seen it before
Bet the Wilders result was a real let-down for you Ake
Never mind - there's always hope in LePen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 08:01 PM

Best to come here without fear! Most of the people who come here who would like us to "fear" them are actually laughing stocks! You included! Nothing personal, Rob Roy! Och the bleedin' noo!   😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 07:53 PM

From Jim Carroll
"What you pair of Arab Haters extremists appear to be saying is that Arabs have no right to comment on what is happening to their fellow Arabs
Now why am I not surprised?
The report was written by Jewish RICHARD FALK
Is he a Nazi too, or is he just a "Self Hating Jew"?
What a shower of racist shit you pare"
Jim Carroll"

2...""Sadly I have no control over what you talk about,"
What do you mean "sadly" - do you mean you wish you7 had, you nasty little Stalinist?European antisemitism has sweet fuck all to do with The Larbour party, but you are quite keen to talk about that.
You and you fick mate weer quite happy to discuss Ireland until your ignorance (and sectarianism) dropped you in a hole, than you cried "foul"
Stop attempting to control discussions, you little fascist
Jim Carroll"

Going by these two recent "contributions" from Jim, I fear you are correct Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 07:25 PM

From wiki:

A snipe is any of about 25 wading bird species in three genera in the family Scolopacidae. They are characterized by a very long, slender bill and crypsis, or camouflage, plumage. The Gallinago snipes have a nearly worldwide distribution, the Lymnocryptes snipe is restricted to Asia and Europe and the Coenocorypha snipes are found only in the Outlying Islands of New Zealand. The three species of painted snipe are not closely related to the typical snipes, and are placed in their own family, the Rostratulidae. There is also a different species of snipe, found only on the Mudcat website. This species, uniquely, displays phenotypic plasticity in that it exists not only in its normal manifestation (known as "bobad"), which lives up perfectly to its name in that it spends its whole existence just "sniping," but also as a disguised entity which effects to be a different species in order to indulge in deception (as distinct from camouflage) but which is in fact identical to "bobad." Fortunately, it has been successfully identified as a mere bottom-feeder with no real role in its ecosystem, and is well on its way to extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 06:57 PM

U.N. chief Antonió Guterres rejected a report published by ECSWA, a Beirut-based agency of the world body— ECSWA—comprised entirely of 18 Arab states, which accuses Israel of "apartheid."

The report's chief author is Richard Falk, a former U.N. official who was condemned repeatedly by the UK and other governments for antisemitism.

In 2011, Falk was also denounced by his own boss, former U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon, for espousing 9/11 conspiracy theories which accused the U.S. government, instead of Al Qaeda, of perpetrating the 9/11 terror attacks.

The new report, said Guterres' spokesman, "does not reflect the views of the Secretary‑General."

UN Watch

Yep, Richard Falk, champion of nut jobs, conspiracy theorists and anti-Semites everywhere. Carroll is in good company.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 06:52 PM

Eyup, flippin' 'eck! Just seen Mount Etna on the news blowing its top! People being bombarded by lumps of red-hot rock! Thing is, just 21 months ago I was standing in that self-same spot!!! Shit! Etna was fuming in a good-tempered kind of way when we were up it, but we lamented the lack of a real good show. But this is a bit much! Been up Vesuvius (twice), Mount Teide on Tenerife, Vulcano in be Aeolian islands, on one of which Il Postino was filmed (me favourite), and we spent a couple of smelly, exciting hours in the crater at La Solfatara at Pozzuoli, near Naples. Also had a boat trip round Stromboli (which is utterly beautiful) and had a couple hours in the town there. Full of tourist shops selling lumps of volcano fashioned into all sorts of cute objects, but who cares? I LOVE volcanoes!