BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:25 AM

Steve, I first came across the bar in 1995. Mary Murphy was the landlady then. I believe she is the daughter of Nora, after whom the bar in still named.

We had a tremendous day there that year and when I got back to the UK I dropped her a line to say Thank-You. That was at Easter. That Christmas, and every Christmas since, I have had a card from her. We've visited on numerous occasions in the intervening years and always enjoyed wonderful hospitality and it must be the best location of any bar I have ever been in.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:42 AM

I am not posting random opinions Rag.
These are the statements of well placed, high ranking Labour officials on their own experience of Labour anti-Semitism.

Reliable witnesses. Their statements would be considered hard evidence in any court, and put together any intelligent jury would accept them as proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Do you imagine yourself better informed than Sadiq Khan and Labour's National Executive Committee Rag?
Really?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:49 AM

You could cite the Queen of Sheba, without evidence it is meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:50 AM

I still do not know if it is any worse in the Labour party than elsewhere. No one can seem to or is willing to put a figure on this 'serious problem'. To quote from the survey I linked before

It also found that one in four (25%) Britons believed that Jews chase money more than other British people, a figure which rose to 39% of those participants who identified themselves as Ukip voters.

What is the percentage of Labour voters in this scenario. Is worse than 39% or worse than 25%? Unless the people making the claim that the antisemitism is worse in the Labour party than elsewhere then their case is not proven.

Seemples.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:55 AM

Rag, the Queen of Sheba is not a high ranking Labour insider.
Are you claimimg that Khan, the NEC and all the others are wrong, as Steve does, or lying as Jim does?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:05 AM

No professor, I am not saying they are wrong. I do not have the information to do that.

I am saying they have only offered opinion.

The reasons for their opinions could vary from a dislike for Corbyn to their having a bit on the side with May.

I do not know .......... and more to the point neither do you.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:24 AM

For Christ's sake Keith - when will you get it into your head that you will never convict anybody of anything unless you specify what you are accusing them of
Doesn't it occur to you as strange that you, nor anybody else is totally incapable of describing the antisemitism that is supposed to be taking place or give a figure to it?
Absolute insanity, by anybody's reckoning.
We really have been here over and over again
Sadiq Khan made his remards at the time of the mayoral election
He believed Corbyn to be a barrier to his winning and he is an opponent of his policy - of course he is goint to use an tactic to win votes at such a time
He does not specify either the type of antisemitism he is referring to nor does he give numbers - he simply refers to its existence - NOBODY ARGUES THAT THERE ARE NO ANTISEMITES IN THE LABOUR PARTY _ OF COURSE THERE ***** ARE
"Badge of shame is a bit of a soundbite with Khan - he used the term to condemn the that the fact that London only took 34 refugees is "London's Badge of Shame", but I very much doubt if he is your hero on that one, knowing your attitude to Muslims.
You have lied, you have twisted what people have said, you have repeated yourself over and over again BUT UNTIL YOU PUT A FACE AND A NUMBER TO THE ANTISEMITISM YOU ARE OBSESSIVELY ACCUSING LABOUR OF HAVING YOU HAVE NO CASE - NOT A SHRED OF ONE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:28 AM

"or lying as Jim does?"
Don't you dare take what I am saying out of context again, you despicably dishonest wretch
You have exactly what I say about politicians and the reasons they do what they do
I am saying that you are deliberately taking what these people say and taking it out of context - you have always adopted the same tactic when you are in a corner - it has become part of your standard dishonesty
Now ******* stop it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 01:43 PM

Rag,
I am saying they have only offered opinion.

No. They are reporting their experiences, not offering opinions.

Jim,
We really have been here over and over again

I know. Why did you ask for it all over again?

you will never convict anybody of anything unless you specify what you are accusing them of

I am not convicting anyone of anything.
I am just reporting that Labour has a problem with anti-Semistism according to Labour itself.

If "The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse" then you make yourself ridiculous by denying there were any.

Note Rag, they are stating facts not offering opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 01:47 PM

Jim,
You have exactly what I say about politicians and the reasons they do what they do

No we have not.
You ducked the question and refused to answer.

I will ask you again.
When they report anti-Semitism in their Party are they lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:09 PM

No one has ever argued that there is no antisemitism in the Labour party. Just that it is no worse than anywhere else and a damn sight less than in some parties. Saying that people are denying there is any at all is classic straw man.

Jim, Raggy, Steve. Have you ever denied that there is any antisemitism? I am pretty sure you have not and I certainly haven't.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:27 PM

"You ducked the question and refused to answer."
I've answered it four times - stop telling lies
"When they report anti-Semitism in their Party are they lying?"
Some are - as I have said, the ones who are attempting to remove Corbyn by any method.
I have no doubt that some have lied - it has been proved beyond a doubt that foremost among those who have made claims are connected directly with Israel and have expressed their opposition to B.D.S.
Whether they are lying or whether they accept the Israeli line that opposition to Israeli policy is immaterial really - both end up in the same place - a distortion of the term "antisemitic".
Israel is mentioned 42 times in Parliamentary report on antisemitism - criticism of Israel is not antisemitic - on the contrary, to suggest it is is antisemitic by definition.   
"I know. Why did you ask for it all over again?"
I didn't ask you to rais Saiq Khan again, which was what I was referring to - I covered that particular situation months ago yet you are still raising it as if it's a new piece of evidence.
You have accused the Jewish members of Parliament of dishonesty - you said they refused to describe the antisemitism because they put the interests of the party first - how ******* dishonest if that?
Personally, I believe that is just a sign of your own antisemitism.
I have no doubt whatever that some members of the Labour Party accept the Israeli line that criticism of Israel is antisemitic - not dishonest, just agenda driven politicking.
This argument of your is pointless Keith.
You have been given acess to a long article by a large member of ordinary Jewish Labour Party Members saying that there is no problem of antisemitism and that the whole thing has been conjured up by supporters of the Israeli regime and right wing opponents of Corbyn ARE THEY ALL LYING?
You have been given statements by several life-long Jewish activists in the Labour Party saying exactly the same thing ARE THEY LYING?
The suggestion that the propaganda campaign which is spending billions attempting to offset B.D.S. manufactured the charges against Labour, first appeared publicly in a long article carried by Haaretz WERE THEY LYING?
Jewish academics and activists throughout the world have made exactly the same suggestion ARE THEY ALL LYING?
There is once certain way to find out who is lying and who is telling the truth QUALIFY AND QUANTIFY YOUR CLAIM OF A PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE MADE YOUR CASE - UNTIL YOU DO, YOU ARE MAKING AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF - BRITISH LAW CLEARLY STATES THAT A PERSON IS INNOCENT UNTIL THEY ARE PROVED GUILTY - ACCUSATIONS ARE NOT PROOF
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:31 PM

Large number of ordinary Jewish Labour Party Members - "large member" doesn't bear thinking about!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:40 PM

Al Jazeera uncovers the "Israeli" plot to undermine the Labour party with accusations of anti-Semitism:

The Lobby

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:42 PM

There's that midge again, gol-dang it!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:44 PM

Arabs always lie don't they Bobad?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:59 PM

No one has ever argued that there is no antisemitism in the Labour party.

No Dave but they have denied that it is a serious problem even though all those senior people say it is.

Jim has just told us that he believes some are actually lying about it.
He has suggested they lie to damage their own Party, and they do it for the Government of Israel!

I would value your opinion of those views Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:11 PM

There is a considerable body of opinion on this forum that believe that you are a complete pain in the arse professor.

Using your own logic they must be correct.

I presume I am correct to come to that conclusion ...........

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:16 PM

Incidentally that body of opinion also includes most of the Moderators.

Now I have no evidence of this, but as I have stated that as my opinion I trust you will accept it as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:51 PM

We should turn this on it's head. Yes, we know that antisemitism is a serious problem. According to the survey I linked nearly half the people of this country hold some antisemitic sentiments. 25% of the people asked thought that Jews chase money more than other people. The survey includes people from all walks of life and political persuasions. Amongst UKIP members the figure is 39%. So what are the Conservatives doing about it when there must be as many of their members that are antisemitic? Nothing. What are the LibDems doing? Nothing. What is UKIP and that nice Mr Farage doing when it is known that their members are more antisemitic than most? Nothing.

In fact, the only party with the integrity to admit that it is a problem and do something about it is Labour. Yet you are telling us this is a bad thing. Like I have said before. Different morality. Different language. Different planer.

Day trip to Bangor anyone?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:54 PM

Raggy, you forgot something. You know there is a serious problem but you are not willing to provide any examples of that serious problem nor will you tell us what it actually is. But you have said it is a serious problem and I have agreed, as have many other people who we will not name. So it must be true

;D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:55 PM

As of July 2016:

Labour had 515,000 members, if your percentages are representative that means that 128,750 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

The SNP had 120,000 members,if your percentages are representative that means that 30,000 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

The Liberal Democrats had 76,000, if your percentages are representative that means that 19,000 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

The Green Party (England and Wales) had 55,500, if your percentages are representative that means that 13,875 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

UKIP had 39,000 members of whom 39% hold some form of view that could be termed anti-Semitic which would produce a number of 15,210.

Plaid Cymru had 8,300, if your percentages are representative that means that 2,075 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

As of December 2013 (latest published figure) the Conservative Party had 149,800 members. If your percentages are representative that means that 37,450 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

Which UK Political Party has the largest number of people who hold some sort of view that would be considered anti-Semitic?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:24 PM

It is therefore remarkable that there are so few alledged antisemitics within the Labour Party, the organisation should, according to your "theory" be riddled with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:30 PM

Well Keith, let me tell you why Sadiq Khan is wrong. Are you listening? Sadiq Khan, like most of the disaffected Labour two-time loser Blairite/Brownite right, is not an honest man. That's why he is wrong. His mission, echoed by your silly campaign here (that approximately three people here are taking any notice of because all the rest are totally pissed off with your tedious right-wing bigotry), is intent on perpetuating the anti-Corbyn split in my party. The bogus antisemitism debacle is the main grist to his mill. Of course, as you're a man of the opportunist hard right, I can't expect you to understand that. I haven't finished with you yet, but I'm about to watch a Spooks repeat on the Drama channel so you can bugger off for a little while.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:39 PM

Arabs always lie don't they Bobad?

You're the one who would know that, lying is your specialty after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:46 PM

Well Raggy, I am not the person responsible for the Poll that states that 25% of the people in the UK are anti-Semitic - DtG introduced the Poll which asked roughly 3,400 people four questions which were loaded.

DtG originally asked the question:

"Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?"

To support the view that the UK harbours a large number of anti-semites he introduced the YouGov Poll to illustrate that anti-semitism is the same in all parties - but that only holds good if all parties were equal, which of course they are not.

Taking the Poll figures at face value I am now even more convinced that any Labour Party Member I meet is more likely to be anti-Semitic because there's more of them that I would meet on a day to day basis than I would compared to any other Political Party.

Elsewhere, oh dear, we find that everybody is out of step except our Steve. As to Corbyn as "Leader", and I hope you are listening Shaw. Jeremy Corbyn has been a total disaster for Labour as a electable political force, under his leadership they provide no opposition in Parliament and they are completely out of touch with their traditional voter base.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:56 PM

"Jim has just told us that he believes some are actually lying about it."
And you have told us that the Labiour party Jewish organisations are lying about it, and Haaretz and all the other Jews who say it is part of the Israeli propaganda campaign against BDS
Who are we to believe - the career politicians who wont tell us what the antisemitism is or the ordinary Jewish members
Whoever tells us what we want to believe, I suppose
Can you describe the antisemitism that is taking place and the numvbers concerned Keith
No - of course you can't - the Jewish members have entered into a pact of silence to hide it.
Game over I think Keith
Do you know how those antisemitic views are expressed Teribus -
No - course you don't - it's about as substantiated as your "Bin Laden wasn't a businessman" claims
I do like your keeping your head down while your mate takes all the flak, then coming back when he's reall in the shit - really comradely
LABOUR IS GUILTY OF NOTHING UNTIL SOMEONE SUBTANTIATES THEIR ACCUSATIONS WITH DESCRIPTIONS OF WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GUILTY OF
Not outside of Donald Trump's idea of democracy anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 08:56 PM

Well, Spooks was superb. Poor Tom has been sidelined tonight in favour of the charmless Adam. Damn.

Now, Keith. Here's the lowdown on antisemitism. Are you listening? Good!

1. Antisemitism is the expressed hatred of or threats towards Jews because they are Jews.

2. Antisemitism has nothing to do with criticism of the policies or activities of the Israeli regime. That includes activities such as ethnic cleansing in the Negev or illegal settlement building in the occupied West Bank, or the blatant discrimination against non-Jews, especially Arabs, in Israel, which I've catalogued on several previous occasions.

3. Antisemitism has nothing to do with BDS, which is an international campaign to put pressure on the right-wing ISRAELI REGIME to try to get it to stop discriminating against non-Jews in Israel, the occupied territories and Gaza.   

4. Antisemitism is a very unfortunate natural phenomenon. It is not subject to unnatural, false definitions favoured by blinkered pro-Israel factions. It's very simple. You are prejudiced against Jewish people purely because they are Jews. Nothing else. Nothing to do with countries or their policies.

5. Antisemitism has nothing to do with disagreeing that the state of Israel should have been founded. It is, however, antisemitic to declare that Israel should be wiped off the map, because, if you do, are calling for the destruction of or enforced mass emigration of millions of innocent Jewish people with family roots in Israel.

6. It is not antisemitic to say that you are anti-Zionist. Zionism is a highly political movement. It is not antisemitic to oppose the notion that Jews are entitled to a separate homeland. I hate to say it, and I'm very mindful of the Holocaust, but there is nothing particularly special about 21st century Jews that puts them on a different footing to 21st century anybody else. That isn't to say that Jews should not be treated with respect and with due regard for their distinct ethnicity, but that applies equally to many other groups as well.

7. There is endemic racism in the Catholic Church (apart from Wagner, quite possibly the most important peddler of antisemism in the last 150 years), the Church of England and the Tory party. Not to speak of overtly racist parties such as UKIP. Shockingly, there may be a small amount even in the Labour Party, but, if so, it is confined to a few people who may need a word in their shell-like to put them on the right path. There is a large faction within Labour who want to see Corbyn go. They have discovered that their best weapon is the trumped-up charge of. antisemitism in their ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 09:23 PM

" I am now even more convinced that any Labour Party Member I meet is more likely to be anti-Semitic because there's more of them that I would meet on a day to day basis than I would compared to any other Political Party."

Do read this again. It's quite likely the most ridiculous sentence ever typed on this forum. No, really, go on. Dwell on it. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 02:40 AM

Teribus - Just one word. Percentages. No point in explaining further if you don't understand it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:01 AM

...and Labour are still the only party doing anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:30 AM

Steve,
Of course, as you're a man of the opportunist hard right,

That is just a lying smear Steve.
I am an ex-Labour voter hoping to be able to vote for them again sometime.

The picture you paint of a Party of liars, happy to damage or even to destroy the Party over internal differences of view is of a Party totally unfit for office, even that of Opposition.

Dave, the survey quoted in the Guardian was restricted only to four old anti-Semitic clichés, none of which has any bearing on the complaints coming out of Labour, but not coming out of any other Party.
It is irrelevant to this discussion.

Jim,
And you have told us that the Labiour party Jewish organisations are lying about it,

Of course I never have or would.
Instead of making up lies about what I say, give the actual quotes like I do.
That would be difficult for you though, because you can only lie about me.

Can you describe the antisemitism that is taking place and the numvbers concerned Keith

Only those that have become public. I am only concerned that Labour has a serious problem with anti-Semitism according to the leadership and numerous prominent members. Your denials against all that are laughable!

No - of course you can't - the Jewish members have entered into a pact of silence to hide it.

That is a nasty and anti-Semitic lie Jim.

LABOUR IS GUILTY OF NOTHING UNTIL .....

Err, they admit their guilt Jim!

Dave,

...and Labour are still the only party doing anything about it.

They are still the only Party with any complaints to deal with!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM

Percentages Gnome? I understand perfectly and the 25% one you put up from the YouGov Poll printed in the Guardian article means that (if it is correct) one quarter of the people in the UK are anti-Semitic then within the membership of the political parties in the UK the number of anti-Semites in those parties are as follows in descending order:

Labour - 128,750.

Conservative Party - 37,450.

The SNP - 30,000.

The Liberal Democrats - 19,000.

UKIP - 15,210.

Green Party (England and Wales) - 13,875.

Plaid Cymru - 2,075.

So Gnome the political party in the UK which has the greatest number of anti-Semites IF your Poll is to be believed is? - Labour. Not a question of me not understanding percentages Gnome it is a question of you not understanding percentages as applied to numbers - A percentage of 25% of the population applies to the population as a whole.

"All out of step but our Steve" trying to tell us something again I see.

This time it is "The Shaw" definition of anti-Semitism. Thanks but no thanks, I will stick to the one officially recognised by the UK Government and by 30 other international bodies and Governments.

But perhaps if you believe your definition of anti-Semitism Shaw you can explain to us all why it was that members of the Jewish community in the UK who were members of the Labour Party felt threatened at meetings and intimidated into silence when any subject related to the middle-east was discussed? Tell us what the reason was for one young Labour Party member stating that she would feel safer at a Conservative Party Conference than she did at Labour's conference where she was advised that she would need Police protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:44 AM

"Of course I never have or would."
Why wouldn't you - you have now accused the Jewish Parliamentarians of covering up antitemitism because "they all love their Party.
Probably the most antisemitic statement made of this forum.
Labor do not admit their guilt and even if they did, that hguil;t world have to be proved,
You have lied youtr way throughout this campaign
You "gave us the evidence of Labour antisemisism"
Hen there was no evidence because the Jews covered it up
Now Labour has afdmitted it despite the fact that all the enquiries exonerated them from the accusations
You are insanely irrational in all your arguments Keith - you don't even agree with yourself.
"They are still the only Party with any complaints to deal with!"
Stupider and stupider
The Tories were accused of Islamophobia nearly a year ago
The only reason they don't have "any complaints to deal with!" is that they have no interest in dealing with such matters,
Utterly mad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:53 AM

Oh well, that's it all done and dusted then, Brexit here we come!
The Remoaners have capitulated....or is it a tactical withdrawal?
The Lords have also been warned that their coats are on "Shoogly Pegs" should they try conclusions. :0)

The only embarrassment as far as I was concerned, was the sight and sound of my fellow Scots singing the European anthem.....most of them so-called Nationalists......I am thinking of becoming an Ex member.

Perhaps Scottish Labour may take up the Saltire? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:20 AM

Just been putting up a list of quotes from your favourite journalist, white supremist, Ann Coulter Ake - the woman you describe as "The scourge of media Luvvies"
Just to put your gloating into context - here are a few of them again
Jim Carroll

A few more Bon Mots from Annie Get Your Gun - I can see where you fot your hatred of Liberals
"If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president. It's kind of a pipe dream, "
"If I'm going to say anything about John Edwards (Democratic nominee for Vice Presidency 2004, nominee for President 2008) in the future, I'll just wish he had been killed in a terrorist assassination plot."
""I was going to have a few comments about John Edwards but you have to go into rehab if you use the word faggot." --at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference"
On the 9/11 widows
"These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by griefparrazies. I have never seen people enjoying their husband's deaths so much." -on 9/11 widows who have been critical of the Bush administration"
"We need somebody to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens' creme brulee"
"Liberals love America like O.J. loved Nicole."
"We need to execute people like (John Walker Lindh) in order to physically intimidate liberals."
"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots."
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."
"Liberals are stalwart defenders of civil liberties -- provided we're only talking about criminals."
"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"
"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo."
"Press passes can't be that hard to come by if the White House allows that old Arab Helen Thomas to sit within yards of the President."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:25 AM

Ah, Ok, that is fine then Teribus. As England has the highest number of people in the UK they are therefore the most criminal race in the UK with Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland being veritable paragons of virtue.

What errant nonsense you come out with at times.

Keith - If you want to dispute the findings of the poll then come up with a better one. Until that time it is the only reference we have and as such is very relevant to the discussion. You are like a used car salesman. If people talk about price, you change the subject to quality. If they talk about quality, you change the subject to price. It is transparent. It is old hat. It doesn't work.

FYI the link I posted did not only only comment on 4 statements. It also said

The CAA's own survey of the of 2,230 British Jews found that 56% felt that antisemitism in Britain has some echoes of the 1930s, which rose to 64% of Jewish people in the north of England.

Did you not get that far or did you purposely not mention that?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM

You've already posted that Jim, but I don't suppose you've heard of irony?

From Wiki in a little more depth.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM

The reason I gave you that link Jim, is that almost every Quote can be viewed in context........you don't like that sort of thing Jim, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 04:46 AM

You need to be careful on another front Ake, I'm sure it was you who berated me for not keeping on topic.

Having said that the West coast of Scotland is magnificent.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 05:15 AM

Apart from the midges, Raggy! A mutual friend lives in the South West of Scotland overlooking Wigtown bay. Not quite the grandeur of further north but very pretty all the same. Have a word with him if you ever fancy going across the water via Stranraer - He is a very gracious host if you decided to stop over there:-) I am sure you know who I mean. Had a lovely coastal walk with him last year around Monrieth where there are lots of connections to Gavin Maxwell of 'Ring of Bright Water' fame including a statue of the otter. The ruins of Kirkmaiden church, where we started and finished the walk, are lovely too.

Glad we are back to sensible again :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 05:17 AM

Ann Coulter is an extremist right wing fascist piece of scum and you quoted her as a serous journalist - and as a backer of your support for Trump (which is very handy)
You are hoist on yor own petard and yor hatred of liberals has finally found its source
You don't like that, do you
Have a good rally now - d'y hear, y'all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 06:12 AM

Dave the Gnome - 09 Feb 17 - 04:25 AM

Ah, Ok, that is fine then Teribus. As England has the highest number of people in the UK they are therefore the most criminal race in the UK with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland being veritable paragons of virtue.

There you go again Gnome confusing percentages and numbers.

Now if your YouGov Poll in the Guianard had stated that 25% of the UK's population were criminals then based on the population figures England having a larger population than any of the UK's other constituent parts would have more criminals. But no poll does say that does it Gnome as you are dealing with three separate and different criminal legal systems.

The numbers and percentages on Crime though, as you brought it up:

For England & Wales recorded crimes 4.3 million for a population of 57.8 million. (7.45%)

For Scotland recorded crimes 246,243 for a population of 5.3 million. (4.64%)

For Northern Ireland recorded crimes 99,575 for a population of 1.8 million. (5.53%)

So it does indeed seem in fact that - how did you put it again Gnome - "As England has the highest number of people in the UK they are therefore the most criminal race in the UK".

If you did lump them all together you'd get a percentage of 7.15% for the total population of the UK which would in actual fact be a slight underestimation for England & Wales, a gross over-exaggeration for Scotland and a slightly lesser over-exaggeration for Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM

No doubt you can us tell us the mean average, mode average, median average and the range then.

We all know the distortions that can be achieved by manipulating numbers.

Who was it who mentioned Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics ..........

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM

No, I am not confusing percentages and numbers, Teribus. That is you. If 25% of the population hold some antisemitic views the numbers do not matter. What I and many others have been saying all along is that being a Labour party member does not mean you are more inclined towards antisemitism than anyone else. 1 in 4 of everyone across the political spectrum (apart from that nice Mr Farage's party where it is higher) hold those views. The fact that there are more Labour members is a complete irrelevance. What is of relevance is that Labour are doing something to reduce that 25% while no-one else is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:11 AM

This feller's as much a troll as his mates Dave
He doesn't believe in facts - "all made up shit" to him- wouldn't bother if I were you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:37 AM

Dave and Raggytash, Teribus's excursion into figures and percentages is even more ridiculous than his usual ploys. Doesn't seem worth wasting time on.

Do learn to think for yourself instead of appealing to authority, Teribus. The definition you choose to cling to has its roots in illegitimate pressurising by pro-Israeli regime pressure groups and is not a neutral document. That has been flogged to death here, but maybe you didn't notice because you were posting above the line. 😂 Do you honestly think that a document that attempts to inhibit criticism of government policy and actions is legitimate? I don't. But people like Jim and I who have done that here yet never once attacked Jews for being Jews, and never agreed with all those vile conspiracy theories that lump all Jews together, have been called antisemitic or worse and you've never uttered a word. It's safer to cling to somebody else's "words of wisdom" than think things through, innit. It's called Keithism. And if thirty countries, etc., have adopted it, that leaves way over 150 that haven't, doesn't it? You do the percentage math. You seem to like that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:39 AM

"If 25% of the population hold some antisemitic views the numbers do not matter. What I and many others have been saying all along is that being a Labour party member does not mean you are more inclined towards antisemitism than anyone else. 1 in 4 of everyone across the political spectrum (apart from that nice Mr Farage's party where it is higher) hold those views. The fact that there are more Labour members is a complete irrelevance." - DtG

IF 1 in 4 of everyone across the political spectrum hold anti-semitic views. The fact that there are more Labour members is far from being a complete irrelevance DtG it means that I am more likely to bump into an anti-Semitic Labour Party member than I am an anti-Semitic member of any other party simply by dint of the fact there a more of the former.

If you ever came up with such a thing as a fact Jim, then I am sure once I'd checked it I'd acknowledge it as being a fact. You unfortunately do not know what is fact and in the midst of your numerous multi-coloured, emotive, spittle-flecked rants you tend to got off into auto and come out with total flights of fancy that are now recognised as "Made-up-shit".

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 07:42 AM

No, on reflection Jim, he does have a valid point. If we follow his reasoning as above, IE

Labour had 515,000 members, if your percentages are representative that means that 128,750 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
The SNP had 120,000 members,if your percentages are representative that means that 30,000 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
The Liberal Democrats had 76,000, if your percentages are representative that means that 19,000 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
The Green Party (England and Wales) had 55,500, if your percentages are representative that means that 13,875 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.
UKIP had 39,000 members of whom 39% hold some form of view that could be termed anti-Semitic which would produce a number of 15,210.
Plaid Cymru had 8,300, if your percentages are representative that means that 2,075 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

As of December 2013 (latest published figure) the Conservative Party had 149,800 members. If your percentages are representative that means that 37,450 of them hold some anti-Semitic view.

And then turn that round to those who are NOT antisemitic we get the following figures.

Number of member who are not antisemitic -

Labour - 386250
Conservative - 110550
SNP - 90000
LibDem - 57000
Green - 41125
UKIP - 23790
Plaid Cymru - 6225

So, Labour has 3 times as many members who are not antisemitic than it's nearest rival, the Conservatives and 60 times more than Plaid Cymru.

So, by Teribus's reckoning, The Labour party have the best record which makes Plaid Cymru look like something from 1930s Germany. And yet Labour are still being castigated for trying to make that number even higher. Very odd.

BTW Teribus, you may note that I am using your chosen name. I note your attempt to belittle me (pun intended) by referring to me as 'Gnome'. It doesn't work. As you don't seem to have worked it out, I think I had probably tell you that I am not really a Gnome :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 08:27 AM

No he does not Dave - don't fall into this trap
Applying statistics is a stupid thing to arrive at a conclusion.
The Labour Party was formed to combat inequality, injustice and bigorty - whatever its faults, that has remained an essential part of its work right to the present day - as shown by the number of Jewish members who have swept asiide these cliams based on their own experience.
We know that the Conservative party has consistently campaigned on a bigotry ticket - anti immigration, anti foreigner, Britain for the British..... all part of the make up of that Party
When Labour was accused of antisemitism it immediately took it seriously (hence Keith's "serious problem" claim) and held enquiries.
When the Tories were accused of Islamophobia twelve months ago, rather than holding an inquiry, they appointed a foreign secretary notorious for racist gaffes - confirming their position on racism in their party - it is part of what they are
The Tories have not moved far from their pre-war appeasement to antisemitism and wartime "whingeing Yids" stance during WW2 other than to become more sophisticated on the issue.
Bound to knock any Parliamentary statistics sideways.
It would be stupid to take the percentage statistics of, say, the number of Muslims living in Britain - the percentages in say Bradford would bear no relation to those in Chipping Sodbury.
Same with Teribus's statistics.
These people have failed misreably to prove there is a problem of antisemitism in The Labour Party because of a lack of facts to back up their claims.
Teribus is now trying to disprove the facts with hypothetical statistics - that's what he does.
There is no problem in the Labour party until somebody produces factual evidence that there is - it reall doesn't ever get more complicated than that no matter how many smokescreens these people throw up
Jim Carroll