BS: The Alternative Facts Thread

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:41 AM

they gleefully applaud leaks from the security services against the Trump administration, yet screamed to high heaven when Wikileaks released the information on Democratic Party corruption and Mrs Clintons indiscretions

I have steered fairly clear of this thread, but there is quite a good 'alternative fact' in that sentence, because you have swapped the time order. Let's correct the time order first:

[Democrats] screamed to high heaven when Wikileaks released the information on Democratic Party corruption and Mrs Clintons indiscretions, yet they gleefully applaud leaks from the security services against the Trump administration

And now let's change the viewpoint of that exact scene:

[Republicans] gleefully applaud leaks when Wikileaks released the information on Democratic Party corruption and Mrs Clintons indiscretions, yet they scream to high heaven leaks from the security services against the Trump administration

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:15 AM

More alternative facts from you, Teribus. Now I acknowledge that I'm guilty of breaching the intended spirit of this thread so that's my lot on that theme with you here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:23 AM

The difference is in the tenses "D", I made it clear by using the past tense which set of leaks came first. A bit clumsy I suppose, but amounting to the same thing at the end of the day.
Additionally. leaks from the security services against the President or his administration is a serious crime, I believe?

Looking again, the time line does matter, it is hypocrisy for the protesters to condemn leaks from an unverified source(hackers) yet applaud what they must know as a serious crime?

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:32 AM

Language can be terribly subtle, and word order is just as important as tense in terms of the framing the idea. But the reason it is important to emphasise the time order is that it clarifies who, if anyone is being hypocritical. The Democrat approach can be read as "We will treat you exactly as you treated us", where as the Trump order - I apologise for implying it was all Republicans - is "We insist on being treated better than we treated you".

Each individual leak is illegal, or it is not. I don't think we have any evidence which of the various leaks were ok, dubious or outright against the law, but I am confident there were a mix on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM

"Donald Trump Loves Leaks. Except When He Doesn't"

To quote the Everly Brothers, or their songwriter, "So Sad to Watch Good Love Go Bad"

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:52 AM

Perhaps one of our US friends can explain if it is illegal for the security services to leak against the sitting President's administration?

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 08:09 AM

"Perhaps one of our US friends can explain if it is illegal for the security services to leak against the sitting President's administration?"
Moot point
If the subject of those leaks is disclosure of illegal, undemocratic and unconstitutional information, surely it is the duty of the security forces to pass on that information.
The President is not above the law nor the interests of the American people
Unverifies and uninformed leakers are not comparable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:02 AM

I think it has to do with leaking classified information Jim.

But I'm not certain about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:08 AM

We have an interesting situation here in Ireland at present
The actions of an honest policeman in blowing the whistle on corrupt practices in Ireland's Guarda Siocorna has led to an unprecedented smear campaign by the force (involving untrue accusations of sexual assault), which has now to the setting up of an enquiry, the demands for the commissioner to stand aside, a call for a general election and the possible resignation of the Taoiseach, (Prime Minister)
Let's hope America has the courage to produce more whistleblowers
Give me whistle blowers over a secret society anytime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:14 AM

Et tu Jim????   how can you defend the activities of the US security services after a lifetime of speaking against them?
Oh how soon they forget.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:50 AM

how can you defend the activities of the US security services

Because, this time, they're defending the Constitution. Full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 11:28 AM

Ake, like Trump, does it hurt your little feelings that whistle blowers are outing crimes so early in his administration? Good.

As federal employees they swore allegiance to The CONSTITUTION, not to the president. That gives them the moral high ground when it comes to bringing down a petty president who wants to play king.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:09 AM

"how can you defend the activities of the US security services after a lifetime of speaking against them?"
I'm not defending them, I am praising their actions here in relation to Trump, where you are choosing to use one of the few good things that have done to defend a dangerous monster.
How about explaining the unconstitutional and illegal actions of 'The Man Who Would Be King' instead?
Trump's actions are ruled illegal and unconstitutional by the court so, like the 'Angry Bird' that he is, he vents his tweeting fury on the "so-called" judges.
Is that your take on democracy?
Trump's team enlists the aid of an extremely aggressive foreign power which is engaged in a bloody, genocidal war, to win the Presidency
Is that your take on democracy?
Are we likely to see you using the term "democracy" as you do "liberal" to denigrate progressive people and ideas?
It's the logical path you are on to openly declaring your right-wing extremism.
I don't expect an honest response to any of these, but as I've said in the past - your silence speaks volumes.
Now - let's hear it for whistle-blowers who tell us what we have a right to know
Gawd bless 'em, every one, as Tom Cratchit was heard to remark!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Stu
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:42 AM

Trump fires up the crowd by lying to them in Florida, this time about a non-existent terrorist attack in Sweden.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Fossil
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:24 PM

The terrorist attack in Sweden was not exactly "non-existent". What it has turned out to be, in fact was a right-wing neo-Nazi attack by some skinheads - who have all now been arrested - on an immigrant centre. In referring to this one incident which happened several months ago, SCROTUS hasn't really made his case against immigration, except indirectly that the presence of immigrant centres tends to provoke backlashes from insecure white male idiots. Sweden remains unmoved otherwise and some economists are crediting the immigrant intake with the excellent economic results achieved by the country in recent weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:39 PM

Sorry, fossil, but he specifically referred to 'last night in Sweden'. That can't be an attack several months ago. Then on the news tonight the case was being proposed that it referred to a general increase in crime level. That doesn't fit with "last night" either. The theory that he mixed up an attack in Pakistan seems most plausible but that would require admitting to making a mistake. It seems unlikely we will hear that from the White House. I'd put higher odds on a claim that the footage of him saying it is fabricated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Fossil
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:46 PM

Last night? Months ago? All same in Trump's mind. Have heard the Pakistan theory as well and it makes about as much sense! Time, space, distance, countries, all meaning-free. In the world of alt. reality, anything is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Fossil
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 11:04 PM

"Last night in Sweden" now seems to be related to a discussion SCROTUS had seen on Fox News (where else?) in which a journalist Ami Horowitz, who had visited Sweden, claimed a link between rising crime and refugee admissions. But not related to any specific incident.

You couldn't make it up, could you?

Well, if you are DT, you could!

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Stu
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:18 AM

Now Trump supporters are saying there's a huge media cover-up in Sweden. The swallow Trump's line on the media hook, line and sinker and now simply invent a world to be outraged by and which enables their hate even more.

Shine on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM

"Now Trump supporters are saying there's a huge media cover-up in Sweden. "
Yeah - 'course it has
And nobody tweets there, do they!!
This man is sick, sick, sick - and the silence from his supporters is just as sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 06:22 PM

Sweden? Pakistan?

What's the difference, they're both foreign. This is just typical nitpicking.

I can see him getting Iran and Ireland mixed up before he's done.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 06:25 PM

Yeah, ya seen one foreign country, ya seen 'em all. Kinda like trees - ain't that right, Gipper?

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:07 AM

😂 Haha!

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:20 AM

Make America Sick Again (a WaPo article)
Is there any discredited, crackpot theory this nincompoop won't buy into. I suppose we should have expected this from the guy who kick started his political career as prime mover behind the "Birther" movement.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 07:18 AM

terrorism in sweden

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM

Completely irrelevant to the matter in hand. If you have a point to make in defence of Trump's Sweden gaffe let's be having it. Links with no supporting comments are a waste of time and that one is particularly irritating.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 07:42 AM

How do Trump's people explain what he said?

They say he referred to a documentary about Sweden's problems with immigrants.
There was such a documentary shown that night.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 08:00 AM

They say he referred to a documentary about Sweden's problems with immigrants."
Nope
He said he was referring to criminal activity bu carefully placed it between two examples of terrorism
His supporters have subsequent;y claimed there has been a cover up by the Swedish authorities
He is a racist liar, as are the supporters who back him up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 08:03 AM

Sory, should have included Ake in that last comment as he has just produced a link to terrorism in Sweden, as if it has something to do with Trump's false claim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 08:41 AM

Norway of course has had a much, much more serious terrorist attack recently than any in Sweden. One that mysteriously did not make it onto Trump's list.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 09:19 AM

They say he referred to a documentary about Sweden's problems with immigrants.

Who exactly are "They"?? Whoever they are, they're WRONG - he excused his lie by refering to a fake news story that was on Fox "News"[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:00 AM

The real fact is that the whole world is under attack from Islamic Fundamentalist terror....It is a situation that we have never faced before, these people are mad they actually want to die...to be a   martyr...they despise anyone who is not of their religion...they commit the most cruel and vile acts. We must be aware and be prepared, for the worst is yet to come, before long we will be facing biological and chemical warfare perpetrated by a handful of lunatics.
How long do you think it would be before Western economies crumble if three or four people infected with some deadly infectious disease were set loose in London or New York......How many such teams could the caliphate muster?

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:34 AM

the whole world is under attack from Islamic Fundamentalist terror

LIE. Ooops --- I meant "Alternative Fact".

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Stu
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:24 AM

"The real fact is that the whole world is under attack from Islamic Fundamentalist terror."

Then go and start a thread on it. This one is for recording Trump's lies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:30 AM

The point is that President Trump is not lying, he is right to be very careful about who is entering your country....The West have yet to take this issue seriously......The Russians have done so and cleared the terrorists out of most of Syria.....but in reality no one is safe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:37 AM

Ake you have a point, and if there is a country from which terrorists have come who have killed a few thousand of your citizens, then you want to be pretty careful about letting people in from there. But that one isn't on the list is it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:41 AM

Greg,
Who exactly are "They"?? Whoever they are, they're WRONG - he excused his lie by refering to a fake news story that was on Fox "News"[sic].

I made clear I was referring to Trump's people.
They say he was referring to a documentary about Sweden's problem's with some immigrants which was on Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Stu
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:47 AM

Take it elsewhere Ake, you understand the premise of the thread and if you don't agree that's your prerogative, but this thread is about Trump et al and their alternative truths.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:56 AM

At a press conference a man was chosen by Trup to ask a question. The journalist wore a Yakima and had short facial hair, he asked " I have a simple question. With the 46 bomb threats to Synagogues and cemeteries in the US recently will you admonish these acts of anti-Semitism ?
Trump; "That is not a simple question, you did not ask a simple question. You are a liar. Sit down."


WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The journalist was being a straight man for Trump to hit a home run but instead Tromp made white nationalist Jew haters proud.

To hate all but the right folks is as American as apple pie but the Trump answer is permission to hate and unambiguous.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 12:23 PM

The point is that President Trump is not lying

The point is thet Trump liea each and every time he opens his mouth. Kinda like Dick Nixon on steroids and meth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:35 PM

"he is right to be very careful about who is entering your country."
Trumps ban on Muslim countries has noting to do with security, otherwise he would have included Saudi Arabia on the list - that was the source of the finance for 9/11 and the majority of the participants.
He is playint to the crowds and it is an extremely dangerous game he is playing.
The world in not at risk because of Islamic Fundamentalist Terror - it is at risk if the problem of fundamentalism is not handled properly
The West's inaction of the Assad massacres, it's failure to assist ordinary Arabs to win better conditions for themselves through Arab Spring and our permanent lust for cheap oil, managed to turn a small, virtually unknown sect of religious nutters into a major threat - it would have no influence if we had played our cards like human beings rather than post Empire predators.
We let the Genii out of the bottle.
The greatest threat to our future now lies in the fact that The Wanker in the White House is treating Isis as a carrier move by pretending that he alone stands between Isis and annihilation.
If anything, he is a damn sight more dangerous than Isis if he is allowed to continue with his thuggery
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:36 PM

"Career move" of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:56 PM

Pope Francis got it right in a letter he sent to campaigners in the USA a few days ago:

"I feel is important to say it again: no people is criminal and no religion is terrorist. Christian terrorism does not exist, Jewish terrorism does not exist, and Muslim terrorism does not exist. They do not exist. No people is criminal or drug-trafficking or violent.

"The poor and the poorer peoples are accused of violence yet, without equal opportunities, the different forms of aggression and conflict will find a fertile terrain for growth and will eventually explode." There are fundamentalist and violent individuals in all peoples and religions—and with intolerant generalizations they become stronger because they feed on hate and xenophobia."

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 02:04 PM

I appreciate the Pope's efforts, Kevin, but speaking truth to idiots is at best a losing proposition.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 02:17 PM

What the Pope says Kevin is perfectly true. But that does not mean that when presented with a perceived threat you do not take steps to introduce measures to protect yourself.

There was no blanket ban on immigration proposed - what was proposed was a 90 - 120 day moratorium on processing visa applications until procedures could be reviewed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Stu
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM

The Anne Frank Centre US has issued a statement on the anti-semitism of the current administration:

@realDonaldTrump do not make us Jews settle for crumbs of condescension.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 02:51 PM

20,000 to 40,000 new jobs may be available as ICE doubles or triples its workforce. Age is not a problem, they will take students as long as they will work full time for the administration and old people can become special informer agents. There is discussion that the largest investigative agency ICE under DHS will expand their public relations with public events like parades and marches to delight children and parents alike with patriotic martial music. To show solidarity with ICE the public is encouraged to wear armbands and show the ICE salute.
The salute is a upwards thumbs up, like a get outta here gesture. The exclamation of Thank Trump is optional at this time.

If you are a legal citizen and have a warm body you have a job with ICE.

https://www.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/RSSFeed/111525

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 04:40 PM

Seing the bar as a response to a terrist threat doesn't make much sense. There have been no terrorist incidents in the US involving anyone from the countries Trump picked to put the bar on. The 911 terrorists were almost all from Saudi Arabia.

Today there is a story about a young teacher from Wales accompanying a school party to the USA, who yesterday was pulled off an airliner on its way to the States, by US Security., at Reykjavik. No connection with any of the places Trump had tried to bar, but his family was from Bangla Desh, and he is Muslim, which was evidently enough.

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 05:30 PM

David....Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe President Trump put a temporary hold on immigrants from the seven countries picked out by President Obama as areas of concern regarding terrorism.

Saudi Arabia was not mentioned by President Obama in his list?

Subject: RE: BS: The Alternative Facts Thread
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 05:46 PM

The countries named and subject to the temporary ban were not selected by the President on a whim. The countries named would have come from US Government Security Agencies and the US Department of State.

"The 911 terrorists were almost all from Saudi Arabia."

What on earth has that got to do with anything? Where were they recruited? Where were they trained? Who selected them? Who were Osama bin Laden's first choice candidates and where did they come from? Needs must when the devil drives applies to terrorist organisations just as much as any other venture working to a timetable and Al-Qaeda on 9/11 were about 12 months behind schedule.