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Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations

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Subject: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 04:19 AM

Shirley Collins up for Folk Singer of the Year and Best Album for Lodestar:

BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 Nominations:

Folk Singer of the Year

Daoiri Farrell
Jim Causley
Kris Drever
Shirley Collins

Best Duo

Josienne Clarke and Ben Walker
Megson
O'Hooley and Tidow
Ross Ainslie and Ali Hutton

Best Group

9Bach
Breabach
The Furrow Collective
The Gloaming

Best Album

Jarlath Henderson - Hearts Broken, Heads Turned
Jim Moray - Upcetera
Martin Green - Flit
Shirley Collins - Lodestar
Songs of Separation - Songs of Separation

Horizon Award

Daoiri Farrell
Fara
Ninebarrow
Talisk

Musician of the Year

John McCusker
John McSherry
Mohsen Amini
Rachel Newton

Best Original Track

Fragile Water by Nancy Kerr
If Wishes Were Horses by Kris Drever
Roll Away by Martin Green feat. Adam Holmes
Sounds of Earth by Jim Moray

Best Traditional Track
Courting Is a Pleasure by Jarlath Henderson
Echo Mocks The Corncrake by Songs of Separation
Van Diemen's Land by Daoiri Farrell
Willie Taylor by Julie Murphy

BBC Radio 2 Young Folk Award

Amelia Coburn
Charlie Grey and Joseph Peach
Eryn Rae
Josie Duncan and Pablo Lafuente

Folk Awards

LFF


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:05 AM

This is really window dressing for British folk scene.

It's difficult - if not impossible - to say that one performer/CD is better than another.

The awards should be shared more widely. If you win something this year, someone else should get it next year.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:30 AM

The awards show on Wednesday 5th April will also include the presentation of the Lifetime Achievement Award to Al Stewart.

This year's inductee into the Radio 2 Folk Awards Hall of Fame will be the legendary Woody Guthrie.

And 10 celebs you didn't know were folk fans;
Steven Mangan
Martin Freeman
Bruce Dickinson
Stephen Fry
Sir Terry Pratchett
Sir David Attenborough
Graham Coxon
David Gray
Ruth Jones
Charles Dance

To be honest, I haven't spotted many at our local folk club. Let's see which are chosen to present the prizes this year.

I can agree with the choice of Woody Guthrie. And I grew up strumming along to Al Stewart and Jimmy Page.

But I recently bought an Al Stewart compilation CD to play in the car. It was the longest journey in my life.

And surely there must be an award for Jo Cox.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:31 AM

That was me again.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 05:52 AM

Al Stewart plays acoustic guitar so he certainly deserves the award. His songs are pretty long as well from what I remember lol.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 11:57 AM

Personally, I don't like folk music being turned into a 'competition'.
Why? Because it's against it's very ethos, IMO.
I think it's fine to recognise exceptional cases with a 'lifetime achievement award' at some sort of ceremony however, pitching one artist against another is plastic showbiz straight out of Hollywood.
Bin it please.

(Tin hat firmly on)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 12:29 PM

Shirley Collins will win both categories she is in not least because she has done nothing for 30 years and is still alive, has produced a subtle return to almost unproduced sound, but also because old school, imho, is often better than new skool...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 12:42 PM

Guest DTM - "Personally, I don't like folk music being turned into a 'competition'".

But competition has ALWAYS been and continues to be a vital part of a lot of folk music culture. Singing competitions, fiddle competitions, piping competitions, etc at festivals...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 12:52 PM

what a stupid idea, this sort of ridiculous nonsense smacks of the pop world and should be stopped immediately.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:05 PM

I have no problems with competitions and awards. Guest RA is quite right , there have always been awards and competitions in folk music I listen to a lot of pop. much of it is very good. I don't understand why some people feel they need to demonize it.
   In any case, I do hope Shirley Collins wins.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:11 PM

"But competition has ALWAYS been and continues to be a vital part of a lot of folk music culture. Singing competitions, fiddle competitions, piping competitions, etc at festivals.."
   no. it is not vital in any way. dictionary definition of vital..absolutely necessary; essential.
These awards have nothing to do with maintaining a high standard at grass roots level, and are utterly meaningless.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:28 PM

Many people in small "grass roots" communities tale the annual fiddling, singing and dancing contests very seriously indeed. Some look forward to these evens with great anticipation and both children and adults practise for months in order to compete. I would say that that that sort of event is vital to many grassroots communities.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:29 PM

Meaningless, Because it has no relevance to folk music,and should have no relevance to the UKfolk scene folk music is not pop music, it is not about the cult of personalities, it is about people being creative, and producing home made music for pleasure,whilst trying to maintain a good standard, it should not be about a star system that is dreamed up and perpetuated by promoters and agents and the media. this sort of nosense where performerspart of a folk circus and take their turns like performing monkeys is reminiscent of celebrity tv talent shows


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:41 PM

I don't think you get it at all Good Soldier. Pop is not totally about the cult of personalities, many pop musicians are very talented musicians. These contests and competitions certainly have great relevance to many of the people who participate in them.Try not to be so dogmatic Good Soldier, there is a great world of music to be enjoyed.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:45 PM

It has every relevance to the increasing popularity of folk music, which is, to some extent, about the cult of personality insofar as it is promoted to gain a wider audience.

You don't like it? Fair enough.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:56 PM

These are your opinions not facts, my opinion is that it has no relevance to folk music. I am not being dogmatic what dogmas am i following here?I certainly get whats going on and I disapprove. I am not going to stand on one side and see the music [which i have been involved in for over 40 years, become a cross between tin pan alley and a performing circus].
I am not alone guest DTM appears to share the same view.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 02:00 PM

They are observed facts, thus they form my opinion. We shall not agree on this, so no point talking further.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 02:21 PM

Dick, Percy Grainger met Joseph Taylor in 1905 when Mr Taylor won first prize (10 shillins and six pence) in the folk song competition at Brigg Lincolnshire.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 02:23 PM

so what?how does that make the bbc awards of any use,or necessary


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 02:32 PM

Cecil Sharp collected his first song from his gardener, and started on a massively important road to collecting avast volume of songs, no competition was needed.
how does that make these silly awards necessary.
the fact Grainger met joseph taylor, because he was singing in a competition does niot in any way justify this pantomime of an award ceremony, these awrds are nothing but a pantomime of tomfoolery


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 04:07 PM

Good Soldier Schweik - allow me to clarify. There is actually a secondary dictionary definition of the word 'vital', along the lines of 'full of life; energetic' (it says here). That's the kind of meaning of the word which I was aiming for, not 'vital' as in 'essential'.

Whether competition culture is 'vital' in the sense of 'essential' is difficult to say because it's impossible to know how the music(s) would have developed without it.

My own opinion, for what it's worth (which may or may not be very much) is that competition is only worthwhile if it's promoting valuable aspects of the music. Of course, what is 'valuable' about music is highly subjective, but for my part I'd rather competition encouraged things such as innovation rather than merely bolstering conservatism and enshrining orthodoxies - and whether the BBC Folk Awards is valuable in that regard is open for debate.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 06:33 PM

GSS

My opinion is not fact, except it is a fact that it is my opinion. Your opinion is not fact, except it is a fact that it is your opinion.

Beyond that Folk Awards exist, like it or not.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 08:58 PM

Poor old Dick ploughing a lone furrow as he so often does.

Why? I suppose it is because he is almost the only one either brave enough or with enough energy to defend what he believes to be true.

We sometimes have our differences but I am totally with Dick on this one.

I also know lots of people with a real interest in traditional music who would also agree with him but can't be bothered to get involved in the senseless diatribes that are invariably generated on such issues.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 04:14 AM

I would think that the one thing the BBC awards do give the music and musicians in question is a measure of exposure to a wider audience! Don't see that as a bad thing in itself. Re on the ground level at least here in the Scottish Borders competition is a part of the folk music world. For instance there are open competitions at both the Denholm Folk Festival and at the Border Gaitherin in Coldstream.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 04:19 AM

I'm kind of with Dick on this, but these "awards" - and we have similar events in Scotland - exist, and they seem to be enjoyed by some [ many ? ] people. They are not in the least bit important to me, but I do allow others to have a different opinion.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 04:54 AM

I've said it many times before, whenever the question of the folk awards comes up - which it does regularly - but I may as well say it again.

I think they're a waste of space. And, let's be clear - the awards are not "competitions", in the sense that the participants compete directly against each other and are judged on that performance. The awards prove nothing and have no significance, apart from being just another showbiz bash.

Just my opinion, of course...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: banjoman
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 05:19 AM

I have been involved in "Folk Music for over 60 years always at grass roots level. Aside from Shirley Collins, I have never heard of any of those nominees listed and I agree totally with Dick. These awards mean little or nothing to the folk scene. I would rather see someone like her named in the next honours list for services to traditional music. I suppose there are many more who would qualify in that respect, but certainly not those nominated.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 05:23 AM

I have to say that I disagree with the prevailing opinion here.

Whilst it's obviously true that they "prove nothing", they have a significance to me in that they introduce me to performers that I may not hear otherwise.

How can that be a bad thing?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 05:28 AM

So banjoman,

So you've never heard of any of them, but have already concluded that they don't deserve an honour.

What commendable open mindedness.... Try using your ears for a bit.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 06:07 AM

I've heard of most of them although they wouldn't necessarily all be my choice although some might be at a different time or in another category.

As Kenny says, we have them up here too. I used to get irritated by them but no more. As far as I'm concerned, I don't take such things that seriously and prefer to base my own likes and dislikes on what I've actually heard and experienced myself. Yes, pointers can also be useful especially for discovering new artists, music, material etc. However, these can come from a variety of sources. I don't have to be directed by "award nominations.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 06:10 AM

One writer says that he's never heard of any of the nominees. Ergo: Folk Awards a waste of time.

Another writer says that the Folk Awards introduce him to performers he's never heard of either. Ergo: Folk Awards are significant for introducing him to new performers.

What fun - make of it what you will. What I find interesting is that some seasoned posters here have never heard of all or some of the nominees. How did those performers get to the "eminence" of being nominated for a Folk Award if that's the case?

Hey - here's a thought: How about an award for all those giants of the folk scene - the people who keep the clubs and sessions going, year in, year out, often for lifetimes, with little compensation other than the sheer joy of doing it?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 06:23 AM

introduction to performers can be obtained by clicking on you tube.or going to see them PLAYING MUSIC live.
"Whether competition culture is 'vital' in the sense of 'essential' is difficult to say because it's impossible to know how the music(s) would have developed without it".
let us take CCE and their competitions, their competitions are not essential[ where is Jim Carroll when we need him].The music is being played by people in ireland, and regional styles stillexist despite CCE AND THEIR EFFORTS TO PRODUCE A HOMEGEONISED STYLE.
CCE have, with their system of marking altered the tradition and discouraged regional styles.
these nominations do nothing to help improve standards at grass roots level, they merely provide certain performers[ who are generally non political and commercial the opportunity to furth their own careers or use the opportunity to use it as a launching pad into the pop or the rock music world, so they can earn more money]
Commercialisation is a double edged sword, whilst it might introduce people to a comercialised form of folk music or occasionally a less commercuialised version it takes the music further from its roots, reducing its strength and vitality.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 06:29 AM

One highly commendable aspect of the BBC Folk Awards is that of a good guide to whom one doesn't want to listen to!!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 06:36 AM

Oh Bonzo - you Naughty Boy!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 06:50 AM

THE uk folk revival should have as a priority, the improvement and maintenance of standards at grass root level
the provision of workshops is in my opinion a step in the right direction, Lewes folk club have been doing this for years, THIS IN MY OPINION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE RADIO 2 FOLK WARDS.
These awrds perpetuate a star syStem, in my opoinion this is not a priority.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 07:31 AM

Keep going Dick - at least after my previous post some like minds have surfaced.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 07:36 AM

1] "this sort of ridiculous nonsense smacks of the pop world and should be stopped immediately. "
2] "These awards have nothing to do with maintaining a high standard at grass roots level, and are utterly meaningless.
3] " it has no relevance to folk music,and should have no relevance to the UKfolk scene folk music is not pop music, it is not about the cult of personalities, it is about people being creative, and producing home made music for pleasure,whilst trying to maintain a good standard, it should not be about a star system that is dreamed up and perpetuated by promoters and agents and the media.
4] "Commercialisation is a double edged sword, whilst it might introduce people to a comercialised form of folk music or occasionally a less commercuialised version it takes the music further from its roots, reducing its strength and vitality.
5] "THE uk folk revival should have as a priority, the improvement and maintenance of standards at grass root level."
6] "These awrds perpetuate a star syStem, in my opoinion this is not a priority."

SHOCK! HORROR! Vic Smith agrees with SIX (6) statements made by Dick Miles in the same thread! He also agrees with Malcolm Storey but that is altogether less surprising.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 07:57 AM

What is a horror is the prehistoric attitudes of old men who won't understand the modern world and cling to some rose-tinted view of how folk used to be. The UK folk scene is vibrant despite the old and curmudgeonly and it is the old geezers who are out of touch with the scene today.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:04 AM

Sorry, Morris-ey - simply not true.

I suppose you might call me an 'old geezer' as I'm 73 this year. I spent Monday evening MC'ing a folk night at the Brighton Acousic Session - with guests in their early 20s playing and singing and generally performing incredibly well.

One of the young performers is a regular at the monthly session in the White Horse in Ditchling - a very talented squeezer - and there are other vibrant sessions in the area which are populated with young musicians with whom it is a pleasure and a privilege to play.

No stereotyping, please. And, for your information - should you care - I have no truck with any awards system on any topic, or indeed the Honours system generally. Once again - just my viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:06 AM

I've been involved even longer than the Good Soldier and agree with his views on the direction the music is taking. Folk music and dance has nothing to do with expertise, it has become all about marketing the product......I was attracted to the music for the emotional content especially audience participation .....the historical aspect was also very important, today it has become a search for a commercial sound which can be produced by "folk" instruments or singing in a faux accent to a reggae beat.

Disqualify the lot of them!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:10 AM

I have no problem with people performing whatever and however they want to perform - in any genre of music. People will either listen or they won't - I just don't think the awards business matters in the slightest.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:24 AM

Interesting to discuss on mudcat but I wonder if any of the people involved are regulars here?

The Track Panel 2017 are:
Lynette Fay – Presenter, Folk Club (BBC Radio Ulster)
Alex Gallacher – Editor-in-Chief, Folk Radio UK
Frank Hennessy – Presenter, Celtic Heartbeat (BBC Radio Wales)
Jon Lewis – Producer, The Folk Show with Mark Radcliffe (BBC Radio 2)
Bella Hardy – Musician and songwriter

The Young Folk Award judges 2017 are:
Andy Bell – Record producer and sound engineer
James Fagan – Musician
Steve Heap – Director, Towersey Festival and General Secretary, Association of Festival Organisers
Nancy Kerr - Musician
Kellie While – Producer, BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards

The Folk Awards Committee 2017 are:
John Leonard – Group Editorial Director, 7digital Creative (Chair)
Kellie While – Head of 7digital Creative
Al Booth – Editor Specialist Music, BBC Radio 2Mark Simpson – Producer, Bob Harris Show (BBC Radio 2)
Colin Irwin – Journalist and author



"The Voting Panel are asked to nominate up to 3 artists in each category. Nomination forms are sent out on 12th January 2017. The panel need to return their nominations by Tuesday 31st January 2017 to Smooth Operations. To avoid any possible conflict of interest, panellists are not permitted to nominate artists in whom they have a close professional interest. Managers, agents, publicists or record company members of staff are not allowed to vote for any artist(s) that they represent. The returned nominations are collated and the top four receiving the most nominations in each category are then listed on the voting form in Round Two."

One way of getting involved, next year? :
"The main Voting Panel is made up of 150 people. Panellists must have a professional or semi-professional connection to folk music and be reliably exposed to a wide range of folk, roots and acoustic music. This may include journalists, broadcasters, promoters, publishers, musicians, festival and folk club organisers, members of arts organisations, academics, publicists, agents and label and distribution company personnel. Membership of the Voting Panel is determined by the BBC & Smooth Operations and is reviewed every three years. You can apply to be on the panel by emailing your name, position and credentials to folkawardspanel@smoothoperations.com "

~~~~~
The programme is produced by Smooth Operations (7digital) ..."7digital fosters industry growth and innovation by simplifying access to music for clients such as Onkyo, Guvera, OpenLIVE, and The Overflow. From years of being the largest independent producer of programming for the BBC, launching Radioplayer in multiple territories, and powering services for partners like HMV, Panasonic and ROK Mobile, 7digital is perfectly positioned to lead innovation at the intersection of digital music and next-generation radio services."
Ok, this page makes them look a bit more cuddly "Our greatest strength is devising formats with enduring appeal, ranging from Radcliffe and Maconie's daily show on BBC Radio 6 Music, to our long-running associations with the Cambridge Folk Festival and industry-facing events such as the Radio Festival and the Radio Academy's prestigious award ceremony."
http://about.7digital.com/company/smooth-operations
~~~~~~~~~~~~
About Nick Barraclough & John Leonard - Smooth Operations , 2007
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/ubc-smooths-in-for-radio-deal-1118230


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:41 AM

Will Fly wrote:-
"I spent Monday evening MC'ing a folk night at the Brighton Acousic Session - with guests in their early 20s playing and singing and generally performing incredibly well."


I was there.
It was a great evening with a really wide range of ages there - twenties to eighties to my knowledge - and just as it should be in my opinion. This wide ranging capacity audience were attentive and enthusiastic. The talented young guests were a local duo in one half and a visitor from Hampshire in the other. The "prehistoric old man" who was compere was lively and amusing in his introductions and performed his song well. Two other relics from the Stone Age, my wife Tina and I, sang a song in both halves of the evening. at the end of the evening, I was cornered by one guest and Tina by another. They wanted to know the source of the (different) songs that we had sung as they wanted to consider learning it. Both old relics were amused discussing it afterwards by the young singers' enthusiasm and the fact that they were entering the song details on notepads on their phones.
It was a happy, rewarding occasion and I could detect nothing of the sad, ageist nonsense that Morris-ey displays in his post


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:49 AM

I `ad that Stuart McPoney in my cab the other day. `e was carrying loads of "Melody Maker" back numbers `ed borrowed from the Fleet Street library. I could see the tell tale signs of best bitter on `em.
I said, " Morning Stew, you looking to find out where all the good old folk clubs were then?"
`e said "Nah Jim, we`re trying to widen the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards with more categories and I`m just looking anywhere for some ideas."
I said, "Oh yeah. What you got in mind then?"
`e said, "Well so far we`re thinking of `oo can play the most notes in three`n`arf minutes, `oo can play in the most keys in one set, which bloke can sound most like a girl, which girl can sound most like a bloke, `oo can play loudest and my latest idea, `oo can take a folk song and completely spoil it with too many instrumentalists!!"


Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 09:19 AM

The BBC could just as easy give more exposure to folk artists by having more programmes featuring them. My point is that there is no reason to make artists competitive. That's not what folk music is about IN MY OPINION.
Please leave all this 'Awards' stuff to the movie makers and pop charts, etc. It's cringeworthy.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 09:42 AM

"Whaddam I Like??".......someone who's bang on the button and funny with it!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 04:11 PM

Can we have some comments on the nominations please.
They have done their best - produced music for us, and all we can do is ignore them and argue about the awards.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 05:53 PM

It surprised me that someone soaked in British folk music would never have heard of the likes of Kris Drever who is a long, well established and one of the better known folk artist on the Scottish scene or for that matter the likes of John McCusker who again is a weel kent figure. Breabach are a pretty well known group here too though maybe not as well known as Drever. Likewise the Songs Of Separation album has been pretty high profile and features the likes of Karine Polwart, Eliza Carthy and Mary Macmaster. So these are not obscure figures. Plus I'd say that if you don't know Daoiri Farrell's work then it is maybe at least worth giving the Irishman a listen before he's dismissed as being not worthy of a listen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPI_tHNjS78


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:00 PM

Mo the caller, go on comment,no one is stopping you, why do you expect everyone else to comment.
my opinion is this, Commenting on other professionals is not compulsory, but in my opinion it is not professional to do so, now you comment away, but please dont start ordering others to comment.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 03:30 PM

Al Stewart, lifetime award. About time. He's been producing since mid sixties. I wish him well. I used to watch him in Les Cousins when I was a yoof. He inspired me ( along with many others)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 03:46 PM

Well my expertise is dance, not song. I do listen to the Folk Programme, and the nominations are a recommendation to someone who knows little.
I opened this thread hoping to learn a little more about the nominees and why they deserved it.
A local duo won a well deserved Young Folk Award a few years back - was pleased for them (and glad that they got time off school to collect it!)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 05:10 PM

its a bit like being a lesbian - it gives some people pleasure.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 06:48 PM

Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 05:10 PM

"its a bit like being a lesbian - it gives some people pleasure."
but no good if you are a man, lesbianism is exclusive, its no fun if you are a man.
"I opened this thread hoping to learn a little more about the nominees and why they deserved it"
then you must be naive, do you expect to learn about gardening when you pick up the bible?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 07:07 PM

Does anyone know where the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards are being presented this year? I contacted various people last year to make a case for the awards being made here in Hull to fit in with our being the UK's City of year of Culture for 2017. I got a positive initial response from the EFDSS and from the Hull-based organizers of the 2017 events, but I have heard nothing for a long time. I was hoping that having the awards made here in Hull might provide a platform for the city to celebrate the achievements of the Waterson family and some of the other great singers who lived in Hull in the 60's and 70's.But I guess the awards are to come from somewhere else?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:33 AM

"its a bit like being a lesbian - it gives some people pleasure."
but no good if you are a man, lesbianism is exclusive, its no fun if you are a man.

if the last forty odd years have taught me anything - its that i've been excluded from the folk scene.

fuck   'em! i'm still alive, still make music, made a living most of my life from it. still working at my guitar playing and songwriting, still appreciated in most places as a skillful performer most times when i pick up my guitar.


so they exclude people. so what! its their call. its their football - they choose to put the goal posts where they want . live with it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:39 AM

BBC AND SMOOTH OPERATIONS PRESENT BBC RADIO 2 FOLK AWARDS

Royal Albert Hall, London Wednesday 5 April 2017, Doors: 6:30pm Starts: 7:15pm

Radio 2's Folk Awards is one of the jewels in the network's musical calendar, and is now in its 18th year. Alongside the announcement of the winners by an array of guest presenters, there will also be live performances from new and established artists including Al Stewart, Afro Celt Sound System and Billy Bragg.

The event will be broadcast live on BBC Radio 2 and will be available online via the Radio 2 website. It will also be available to watch afterwards on the BBC iPlayer and the Red Button service.

Expect very special collaborations, and magical musical moments, from some of the most exciting artists in the folk world.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:09 AM

"I contacted various people last year to make a case for the awards being made here in Hull to fit in with our being the UK's City of year of Culture for 2017."

Considering how far in advance the RAH would need to be booked I suspect that you were already a year late in making the suggestion.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 09:30 AM

I agree with Allan that some of the nominees are far from obscure, in addition to his list John McSherry, is well known and well respected in many circles. Maybe its because he does other, innovative things in addition to playing traditional music that some on here are not keen.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:37 AM

I cannot see that anyone even on the fringes of the folk world would not have heard most of the people on there.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:10 PM

Well we've all heard of them, but that doesn't stop them being bland and boring.....I have a huge collection of vinyl LPs from the heyday of this music, Bothy Ballads, Irish,Scottish and English Trad, Some of the better writers from the 80's and 90's, but I honestly cant get enthusiastic about any of the new generation. The guts has gone out of the music it now seems to be controlled by an elite....you've all heard them, talking shit.....they are as far away from "the people" as you can get......they haven't a fucking clue about what makes the music so special.
It just makes me sad that the "beige" is enveloping everything.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:26 PM

I don't believe the young people now carrying on the tradition really give a fuck about what old farts think - not least because the old farts will be dead and forgotten soon enough.

It is sour grapes really, is it not? Well, I was never nominated for any award so it must be crap? Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:51 PM

Picking up on Mo the Callers post,I`m missing something, I see no nominations for ceilidh bands, step/clog dancers or Morris sides who all are vital to the "Folk" world!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:53 PM

I'm afraid, Morris-ey, that I regard your summing up of the scene as very silly and superficial.

If you think that age is an indicator of vitality, vigour, enthusiasm, professionalism, skill, modernity, etc., etc., you're beating a path to nowhere.

As for your sour grapes theory - my arse! It's not a question of whether these awards and their ceremonies, or any other awards, are crap or not - it's that, however "worthy" they aim to be, I genuinely think such things just don't count for much in the end.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 01:06 PM

in the end....who can tell. even with Trump in charge ....the end may not be insight!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 02:17 PM

Is the folk world not big and inclusive enough to house both the down to earth weekly folk club with their residents and jobbing singers as well as the glitz of the awards and famous names? Does anyone on here really think that the rock and pop world is all big names and fame? I reckon for every big name in any genre there are thousands who are just like the floor singers at your local club. It is only the famous who get noticed and purely on that score it has to be a good thing to give the folk world the kind of platform that everyone sees. In my opinion of course.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:36 PM

This music whether trad or contemporary is supposed to be about emotion, it is supposed to instil emotion in the audience, be it a house of hundreds or person to person......I have seen performers bring a rowdy hall to absolute silence just by striking their guitar strings for an intro.....these people were legends adored by the folk public yet thought nothing of sitting in the bar chatting or going on bender with the locals. They loved to get the audience involved, I know its a cliché, but the hair really did stand up on the back of your neck.......The produce of the folk academies and the awards circuit couldn't provoke emotion in a nursing mother, it's just a sound an interminable drone fast or slow......they haven't lived it.
You've got to have lived it or lived among it to really understand it. The highlight of my young life was the weekly village concert under the oil lamps, all that could sing or play contributed, we were all half starved and worn out by back breaking work, but the music was the glue that bonded us together.    Gone forever!

Now folk music is the preserve of the urban elite they are getting the music they deserve.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:04 PM

"I don't believe the young people now carrying on the tradition really give a fuck about what old farts think - not least because the old farts will be dead and forgotten soon enough."

An ideal place to start .... if the plan is to re-invent the wheel. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:05 PM

To Morris-ey I would say that the songs and tunes that fuelled the revival incorporated to a large extent the lives and deeds of men and women long dead but not forgotten ....there has to be an historical dimension to folk music or it becomes only another branch of the entertainment industry.

I'm well over 70 but the stuff being produced today under the guise of folk music will be forgotten before I finally lay down my tools.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:09 PM

Now folk music is the preserve of the urban elite

I think you've missed 'neoliberal' from your stereotypical characterisation. Try doing some further listening, eh?

As for "the highlight of my young life" that you mention, you simply remind me of Tony Capstick

We'd lots o' things in them days they 'aven't got today - rickets, diptheria, Hitler...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:56 PM

i can't see that it matters.

its obviously creating a degree of ill feeling. i really can't see irs worth getting worked up about. its horses for courses.

some horses aren't welcome on this course. it still leaves us the world to gambol in - and that's pretty good.

why would you want to go where you're not welcome?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 06:59 PM

Seems to me that there is plenty of younger performers out there but there seems to be a real rift between younger performers and the folk clubs as such. Which is maybe not surprising considering some of the negative attitudes on here. Had a quick look and for instance The Furrow Collective had 15 gigs coming up in the months ahead but none are at folk clubs as such. Three are at folk festivals and the rest are at other venue types. Alasdair Roberts has 17 gigs coming up with only one (Bodmin Folk Club) which is actually at a folk club. Daori Farrell has 17 gigs coming up and again only one (Roots Music Club Doncaster) is at a club. Kris Drever has 7 gigs coming up and only one (Milngavie Folk Club) is at a club. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe a mixture of clubs not wanting these upstarts or maybe the performers maybe not wanting to play to what they may perceive as a predominantly old audience. Or more likely it is just the way things have panned out. Things change.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Capo da Monty
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:13 PM

Great to see Ninebarrow in the nominations for the Horizon Award.
They have been bringing their music to folk clubs and other venues around the UK and seem genuinely excited to be included.
I wish them well.
CdM


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:26 PM

I have had nothing but respect and thanks from the younger singers I have met. One or two have taken songs from me (and credited me) and one has won a folk award with three songs from my early vinyl recordings on his Cd's.
I would like to think I have a good relationship with all of them.
I had a very special (to me) moment when Martyn Wyndham Read invited me on guitar and Cohen (Granny's Attic)on concertina on stage with him at the Grove Folk Club Leeds. Martyn Sang the Banks of Claudy. All three generations playing together! How special was that?
I really feel the music is safe in their hands, and I am genuinely excited for the future, and if this old voice of mine gives out in the next decade or so, I will hand over the flag with a good heart.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 03:18 AM

Allan...."Things change"   I agree, these young performers have come up with a new genre......certainly not "folk music".

It is a genre without depth based on a search for a marketable sound.

I heard one modern darling saying how her music contains "filmic tones".......a new level in pretentiousness?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 03:46 AM

Strange how this thread has morphed from being about the folk awards, and their value or otherwise, into an argument about age and young and old performers. What on earth has the age of a performer got to do with any of this?

I would have thought it was clear from my and Vic's description of a recent Brighton session that it is not an issue - and to make it so is just creating a false battleground.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM

Will you stated that you just didn't believe in awards which is fair enough and a valid point to make. But others have actually criticised the recipients of the awards. Too obscure. College elites. And now they seemingly aren't even really folk artists at all. I think all these points are unfair!
I listed the gig stats because it does seem that these acts don't tend to play folk clubs that often. That maybe explains why some have never heard of them and it does suggest that there is a bit of a generational shift.
They are not all music college graduates – but even if they are it does not mean they weren't already immersed in their local folk scene.
And here is a few vids of some of the acts I have mentioned and are recipients. They may not be to everyone's liking but can anyone suitably explain why it is not folk music??




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjRwzEolrCc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05-ZoPfhrDQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-UwyyuMFEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq0htznRMMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkERtyGnOtA


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:37 AM

All good stuff there, Allan - very good music indeed. I particularly liked Kris Drever and Boo Hewerdine. Nothing whatsoever to fault or dislike.

One of the problems that some conventional folk clubs - as opposed to festivals - might have in booking some good contemporary acts is the actual cost of paying the artists. I don't know what fees full-time musicians charge these days - knowing that they have to pay the rent, etc. When I was on the road full-time for a spell - back in the early '80s (playing in a 3-piece band) - we earned enough playing 3 or 4 nights a week to get by. But that wasn't in folk clubs, it was in Trades & Labour Clubs, Legions, WMCs, etc. Playing to anything from 50 to 200 people at a time. The most lucrative stuff I do these days is weddings, birthdays and other functions in a ceilidh band - but I would have to be playing 5 nights a week to earn a living from it. Luckily, I don't have to do that.

Most pubs and clubs pay me and my guitar partner around £100 for an evening's entertainment - sometimes less, sometimes more, depending on how the gig is financed - and we do something like two 40-minute spots or equivalent. Can artists gigging full-time subsist on that? Probably not without other sources of income.

Festivals are on a bigger stage, attract crowds of people and can bring in more cash and publicity. I personally don't care for festivals, but they're immensely popular.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 07:30 AM

Will Fly wrote:-
"I would have thought it was clear from my and Vic's description of a recent Brighton session that it is not an issue - and to make it so is just creating a false battleground. "


I would have thought that the point is self evident but let's spell it out:-

* There are some excellent performers on the folk scene and elsewhere, others who are fairly ordinary and some who are pretty dire and always will be. Age does not come into who falls into each category.

* There are some performers inside the folk scene who put a great deal into their performances and delight in what both they and those they admire achieve. There are others who are only concerned with themselves and they become embittered because they think they have not been given the recognition that they feel they deserve. Age does not come into who falls into each category.

* There are some older performers and enthusiasts who think that the young performers lack soul and are too concerned with presentation etc. and miss the point of the music. There are younger performers and others who want to tell those who have been performing for several decades that they know nothing and dismiss them as "old farts" - see above. Both these groups are wrong in their outlook.


I first started going to folk clubs I was still at school. Soon after leaving school I started my own folk club. I met and booked the likes of Packie Byrne, Belle Stewart, Jane Turriff, Bob Copper. I got to know all these people as friends even though they were old enough to be my grandparents. Now I am in my mid-seventies and have watched the likes of Jim Causley, Matt Quinn, the Askews grow up and develop as performers. They are young enough to be my grandchildren yet we always make time to chat to one another when we meet; I have even done quite a number of gigs with Matt.

I could go on but other points would be of a similar nature and would want to emphasise all POSITIVITY in people and regret all NEGATIVITY.
I am not one for quoting sayings or aphorisms but one that I frequently trot out is one that I have heard attributed to John Brunner, William Ralph or as I first heard it attributed to Jean-Jacques Rousseau

There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, " This is new, and therefore better."


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 01:28 PM

None of the above alters my opinion that Folk Awards are a mistake, regardless of who gets an award.
I have heard some good young performers, the way to improve and maintain standards is at grass root level, through workshops,or lessons.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 01:57 PM

from reading the thread, i don't think the situation bears much analyses.

there are some people happy as sandboys with the present situation.

there are some who aren't.

i couldn't pretend to know which lot are right.

i suppose i straddle the two points of view.

i'm glad for the people on the happy chappies list that they've a scene going.

i sympathise with those on the outside and think the folk tradition is weaker for their exclusion.

of course what both parties forget is that the tradition will adapt and survive and the demotic music of England will develop inspite of their efforts to affect its progress.

the folk music scene is a tiny determinant on how the common people express themselves musically.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 01:19 AM

"i sympathise with those on the outside and think the folk tradition is weaker for their exclusion.

of course what both parties forget is that the tradition will adapt and survive and the demotic music of England will develop inspite of their efforts to affect its progress."
   no no non, we have a responsibilty to try and make sure the music is kept strong and survives and is of a good standard the way to do that is at grass roots level through workshops and tuition, it is not through having awards.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 01:39 AM

Like it or not, the future of folk music is in the hands of young people.

Unless we encourage them, it will slowly disappear.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 04:06 AM

IMO,
Performance Encouragement for anyone of any age is best done through tuition and workshops.
how do awards encourage people and encourage higher standards for those who want to play music as an amateur? how do awards encourage people who do it either for a living or on a semi pro basis?,most pros and particularly semi pros carry on getting gigs regardless, these awards are not relevant for the majority of semi pro or pro performers.it is possible they may impress some people who are not performers.
how useful is that? will it help raise the overall standard of performance in this genre? what is the purpose of these awards?. do they provide income for the organisers?
What are the reasons for these awards?
do these awards encourage MANY PERFORMERS?
or do they just encourage those that win the awards[ who are of course a tiny proportion of the overall performers working on the uk folk scene].
I think more amateur performers and semi pros and even pros are encouraged in their playing by videos on you tube .
WILL FLY, channel is a good example, of how to raise competence levels.
I have found other videos and particularly PETE SEEGERS rainbow quest ILLUMINATING INTERESTING AND HELPFUL.
   One of the more useful things imo "as regards raising competence levels" the BBC ever did for folk music was Hold Down A Chord.
    now of course the BBC are less concerned about musical education but more about viewing numbers, none of which imo has anything to do with maintaining musical standards in the folk genre.
It uses the idea of a star system, which in my opinion is unhealthy, and belongs in the pop music world.
So the organisers of The BBC Folk Awards wish to make money, promote themselves and promote a few performers, BBC wish to increase their viewing audience, that is what these awards are about, Commercialising Folk Music and making money.
it is necessary IMO be Honest about this.   
These awards will promote avery snall proportion of artists, they will help BBC viewing, and provide money for the promoters, on the plus side they might introduce a few new people to the GENRE., but at the same time how many of those new people will become performers?
more likely IMO they WILL think that this music is NOT about home grown music, but about Folk Stars., about promotion and many of the things we see in the Pop Music Industry
However it is my honest opinion that this is not the best approach to introducing new people to the genre, in my opinion it is more important to help EVERYONE to keep the music to high standards in the other ways I suggested earlier.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 04:09 AM

The future of folk music is in the hands of everyone regardless of age.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 06:52 AM

Dick has said in one line what it took me three paragraphs to say.
(So no change there then!)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Mike Daniels
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

GSSchweik's view seems unnecessarily prescriptive/restrictive. There are many ways in which to enthuse/encourage/assist participants/performers of all ages re making music.

Workshops/Tuition is fine but may not necessarily be the preferred route for all.

It's probably best to see the R2 Awards as a celebration of the scene and its performers. I don't see them as a competition per se and they perform a valuable service in encouraging performers and bringing Folk music to a wider audience.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:20 AM

I still don't see why we cannot have workshops, tuition, folk clubs. floor singers, mega stars, concerts, awards and everything in between. None of them are mutually exclusive.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:24 AM

" I don't see them as a competition per se and they perform a valuable service in encouraging performers and bringing Folk music to a wider audience.
can you give me of examples of performers they have encouraged other than past winners?
There are MANY other ways of bringing Folk Music to a wider audience, In Ireland it is done by inclusion of traditional music on mainstream national radio and television programmes ON A WEEKLY AND DAILY BASIS., without the showbiz element of awards.
Morris dancing is a way that folk music is brought to a wider audiences in the past, Maritime festivals have also acheived this by appealing to people who are involved in maritime hobbies or who may work at sea and who then develop an interest in associated Music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:33 AM

Again, why not just have everything? As I said, it is not a question of Awards OR something. It is Awards AND something. Surely the maxim must be the more the merrier?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:48 AM

In Ireland they have music awards too though. Whether you believe in awards or not it is simply incorrect to somehow suggest that British Folk music having awards is unusual. It would be more unusual not to have them. The Irish have traditional music awards broadcast just in a few days time on 19th Feb. See link below.

Don't most forms of art have them? Not just popular music but classical music too; and film and TV; and theatre; and literature both prose and poetry; and of course art itself; and away from the arts in general even science etc has awards.

And I think we would all agree that it would be better if folk music was given more general coverage - but I can't see how getting rid of the one thing that does give it a bit coverage would help with that! In every field of art the awards are newsworthy stories to at least some degree. Whether it is the Oscars, the Booker Price, the Turner Prize etc etc.

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/the-best-of-traditional-music-2016-tg4-gradam-ceoil-award-winners-announced-1.2898009


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 11:00 AM

Spot on, Allan.

Thanks

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 11:44 AM

can you answer my question,thankyou?
my point is that There are better ways to give folk music coverage and that giving it that sort of coverage is not as important as improving standards at grass root level.
If I took your argument and extrapolated it to an extreme, that any coverage is necessary,it could be argued why not give folk music as coverage between tooth paste advertisements.
John Manifold, Australian Folk song collector said and I quote "Folk song does not belong between toothpaste advertisements".
If you think it does,or you think these Radio awards are necessary we must agree to disagree.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 01:03 PM

What is your question, Dick? There were a number a couple of posts ago and I don't propose to answer them all.

To come back on your last point above, folk song has been used in many adverts including a concertina playing fisherman. For Youngs fish products I think. I do not know if it ever appeared before or after an advert for Colgate but chances are it did at one time. I for one have never said the awards,(be they Radio or TV) were necessary but I cannot think of a reason not to hold them. Can you?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 01:04 PM

Thanks to Freddy Headey for spelling out how the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards work: different system in Scotland for the MG ALBA Trad Awards, where ANYONE with any interest in folk music (and the various other categories) can submit nominations so long as they do it on the correct form, which is easily obtainable from the Hands Up for Trad website.
And Mo, we DO have a category for "Best dance band" - as well as other for "Best Pipe band", "Best tutor", "Biggest contribution to Folk/Trad in the media", "Up and coming", "Best venue", "Folk Club of the Year", "Best Festival" and of course, "Best Gaelic Singer".
As I understand a panel sorts through all the nominations, then issues a voting form with 4 people/bands to choose from, which again can be filled in by anyone: but at that point the hard CANVASSING of votes starts, so this is where I do start to have doubts about the validity of the awards: i.e. how many friends do you have? And no doubt some people will submit more than one voting form from different computers!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 01:34 PM

One of the best known example of a folk performer's song getting its first real airing to a wide public by way of an advert. I'm sure Dougie wasn't somplaining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX9h558Tz1E


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 01:49 PM

Dave, since you cannot be bothered to look back a short way
"can you give me of examples of performers they have encouraged other than past winners? "adressed to allan conn.
Dougie, as i understand it fed up with incessant requests for it, much as McTELL is fed up with requests for streets of london, understandably they enjoy the financial security, but they have both written better songs and artistically as i understand would wish that some of their other songs were given as much recognition.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 02:28 PM

You asked a lot of questions, Dick. I did look back but did not spot any addressed directly to Allan. Sorry but unless you are specific in who you address your questions to we can only assume they were to anyone in general. I am unsure why you would say I cannot be bothered about something when I thought I had made a perfectly civil point. Each to his own I suppose.

Now, can you answer the question I asked? IE - Is there any good reason not to hold the folk awards? Addressed to Dick specifically but anyone can feel free to answer.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 02:53 PM

Iasked for an answer from Allan Conn, I am still waiting
"can you give me of examples of performers they have encouraged other than past winners?
yes, I have answered that question, Dave, go back, think, and look.
if you do not understand everything I have said, then you do not understand that this is the music of people, it is not the music of tin pan alley.
I will leave you with a quote from Ewan MacColl
My function is not to reassure people. I want to make them uncomfortable. To send them out of the place arguing and talking.
Ewan MacColl


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 03:16 PM

But that is no reason not to hold awards.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 03:52 PM

GSS - to turn your totally pointless question around :
Can you give us examples of performers who have been discouraged after watching the Radio 2 Folk Awards ?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 05:19 PM

[gss & dtg
It looks like the "... they perform a valuable service in encouraging performers ..." comment was from Mike Daniels but he's not been back since.
thread.cfm?threadid=161498&messages=101#3839098 ]



.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:54 AM

I thought so too, Freddy, but I didn't like to say!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:27 AM

still waiting for an answer., whoever the comment was from. Ido not know anyone who has been encouraged to perfoprm other than the tiny proprtion of winners.
the majority 0f perfoprmers are encouraged to perform because they love this genre of music and they get a good reception when they perform.
competitions and awards can on occasions be a double edged sword, they encourage the winners and can on occasions discourage those who do not win.the bbc would be better off spending money on folk workshops, or propgrammes like "hold down a chord" , but they wont because this is not about education or improving standards for the bbc it is about viewing figures


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:44 AM

vjewing figures.....!

who the hell watches that!
the only times i've watched it are when mates were on it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:26 AM

"Iasked for an answer from Allan Conn, I am still waiting
"can you give me of examples of performers they have encouraged other than past winners?"

I saw your initial post which said you were waiting on an answer to your question but I did not know who that was actually addressed to or what question it referred to. And I have no need to answer that as I never claimed that awards encouraged people to take up the music. It was someone else!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:35 AM

my point is that these awards are elitist, if you think elitism is a good thing to encourage, do not expect me to agree with you.still waiting for an answer from "someone else" which rather proves my point. the sooner these awards aere stopPed The .Better
the BBC WOULD BE USING LICENCE PAYERS MONEY IN A MORE USEFUL WAY[IMO] ,IF THEY PROMOTED FOLK MUSIC IN A NON ELITIST WAY.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 08:33 AM

This is what Karine Polwart, nominee and winner of previous Folk Awards, wrote in her latest newsletter:

"I'm also acutely aware of my own personal luck in being a multiple winner and nominee at high-profile events such as the annual BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards. Whatever your take on the fairness or breadth or consumer-packaging of them, they make an impact, make no mistake. I credit those awards with lifting my music to a platform that has enabled me to make a sustainable life these past dozen years (so far, so good) as a writer and musician.

Others are less fortunate, and not because their music has any less meaning or merit. Anyone who already has visibility in their chosen world has an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't."


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:13 AM

It is just your opinion, Dick. Many agree. Many disagree. What is the point of arguing?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 12:32 PM

"my point is that these awards are elitist, if you think elitism is a good thing to encourage, do not expect me to agree with you.still waiting for an answer from "someone else" which rather proves my point. the sooner these awards aere stopPed The .Better
the BBC WOULD BE USING LICENCE PAYERS MONEY IN A MORE USEFUL WAY[IMO] ,IF THEY PROMOTED FOLK MUSIC IN A NON ELITIST WAY."

Dick, three things: firstly you encouraged another poster to read the thread to find out who your question was aimed at - why don't you read the thread to find out who you asked the question of?

Secondly, have you never come across the concept of aspiration whereby awards encourage others to improve? Probably a foreign concept because you are already a legend in your own mind.

Thirdly, do you pay a BBC TV licence?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:09 PM

Karine Polwart's assessment(quoted a few posts above)is spot on.
She is also being very modest (totally in character, if I may say) as I am certain her outstanding talent would still have taken her to where she is now whether she had won those awards or not. They probably sped up the process, I'll grant you that.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:16 PM

I live in Ireland,Why would I pay BBC licence, I cannot receive it here
However,Whether I pay a BBC licence is not relevant, I am still entitled to say how I think BBC licence money should be used., or do you believe because i live in ireland Iam not entitled to have an opinion on BBC output.
Morriss_ey,one thing, you have aimed a personal attack on me earlier on this thread, which a MOD removed, this unpleasant personal attack not only showed you to be a coward, hiding your identity, it did not show your character in a pleasant light.
Morriss ey, what is your real name,my name is Dick Miles, I have run a folk festival for 6 years, I have run folk clubs and I have been a full time musician for 40 years, who are you what is your name. I assume you are not Steven Patrick Morrissey (born 22 May 1959), professionally known as Morrissey, an English singer, songwriter and author.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:21 PM

"can on occasions discourage those who do not win" Names, please.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:26 PM

..... and also if you live in Ireland, and make no financial contribution to the BBC through the licencing fee, no, you do not have any right to tell them what they should and shouldn't make programmes about. I don't recall anyone here ever telling RTE what they should be programming.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:35 PM

We don't seem to mind having "elite, athletes or soldiers. nothing wrong wrong with the concept of "elite", in those areas.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:41 PM

Dick,

Given that you don't pay anything towards them, I'd suggest that you have very little right to demand that "the sooner these awards aere stopPed The .Better"

Also, are you aware that the audience have to pay a considerable amount, as much as £33 plus booking fee for tickets? Given the size of the Albert Hall, I'd suggest that this would cover most, if not all, of the expense of hosting the evening. So perhaps it doesn't have any impact on the licence fee, at all.

Ans as for Ido not know anyone who has been encouraged to perfoprm other than the tiny proprtion of winners., then you clearly haven't listened to the views of many of those who enter the 'Young Folk Award', a integral part of the event? Many, not just the winners, are thrilled about it. And these virtual unknowns are in no way 'the elite'.

Sorry, but your arguments really hold no water at all.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:30 PM

if it has no impact on the licensing fee, then it is not relevant where i live or whether i pay a licensing fee.
you shot yourself in the foot there.
anonymous guest hiding your identity, you can think what you like.
you attempt to smear my character, whilst hiding behind an anonymous name.
IT DOES NOT ALTER THE FACT THAT I AM ENTITLED TO STATE MY OPINION THAT I THINK THESE AWARDS ARE ELITIST.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:35 PM

"My function is not to reassure people. I want to make them uncomfortable. To send them out of the place arguing and talking."
Ewan MacColl
HOWEVER SOME HERE ARE UNABLE TO DISCUSS WITHOUT SMEARING OR INSULTING. YOU COWARDS.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:53 PM

Dick

If you don't live in the UK, don't receive BBC programming and don't pay the Licence fee then you have no say and your opinion on BBC programming is nugatory.

You are not actually discussing anything here you telling people how it should be and getting hysterical when people don't agree.

AS to my name, if I said it was Alexander Cavanagh would that advance the argument in any way?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 03:19 PM

Wow, Dick!

I pointed out two reasons why the cost of the awards shouldn't concern you. A) You don't live here or pay anything towards it and B) It probably pays for itself.

Your response: you shot yourself in the foot there. Yeah right, OK...

Quite why you're saying: UNABLE TO DISCUSS WITHOUT SMEARING OR INSULTING. YOU COWARDS. is beyond me too. I don't think any one has.

To use contemporary vernacular: 'Take a Chill Pill'

One interesting point is where Morris-ey got his name from. I'd always, this being a folk site, assumed 'Morrissey & The Russian Sailor' but being a huge Smiths fan since '83 myself, I can understand Stephen being the inspiration.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 03:31 PM

I used to be a Morris dancer, is all.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 03:36 PM

:) love it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Morris-ey. The thought had just crossed my mind!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM

I can think of a whole generation of young singers that should have been nurtured by the folk scene, but weren't.

And the folk establishment is SO bloody smarmy, middle class and offensive.. at major festivals you see them smarming over some young puppy, whose parent played the third yoyo on the 60's folkscene. Totally forgiving their lack of talent, stage presence, instrumental ability, preparedness to perform....and generally pissing away the creative opportunity that should have gone to someone far more dedicated.

If you haven't noticed this. You're blind.

Its the misfortune of the BBC Folk Awards that it represents this unfortunate aspect of the folkscene in many peoples minds.

You can't bring it to court for any of the above....but if you want a brief explanation of why people resent it, perhaps unfairly...there you have it.

Personally I think...thats how things are. that's how it always has been. live with it. a gang of would be toffs. leave 'em to it. theres plenty of the rest of the world for us to live in.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:15 AM

I am concerned SOLELY about the direction the UK FOLK SCENE has gone over the last 50 years.
I think number one priority is improving standards at grass roots level.
Over the last 40 years, i have seen the uk folk scene change and go in a direction musically which I believe was a mistake.
I am not prepared to remain silent any more,
If we can discuss the topic and not make insinuations about the motives of posters this could be a discussion which HOPEFULLY makes people think about the priorities of the UKfolk scene


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:55 AM

You have been very clear in stating your concerns Good Soldier. Some agree, some don't..lots of room for both points of view. But you seem to want to go on saying the same thing over and over, we get it, really we do but it appears that some of us disagree, let it go at that, no need to keep repeating yourself.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 12:28 PM

OK Dick, so how do you suggest the UK folk scene improves standards at grass roots level?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM

I agree GSS, but I'm afraid the fault lies in society. People have changed dramatically since the sixties......There is definitely something lacking in the youth. Proper work and the music that it created, no longer exists, the communities broken up to be replaced by mobile phones and "social media", the cult of celebrity rules....me..me... mee!
We are losing something very precious, but perhaps a new way of life is just around the corner, necessity may cause us to develop a bit of interdependence again, then we could try the Irish model of small competitions for young people to encourage real study of the tradition.....and most important a return to festivals and street music.....the jewel in the crown of traditional folk music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 01:15 PM

What planet do you live on? People have changed since the sixties? Why does that surprise you, given that was over 50 years ago? Festivals are more common and more attended than folk clubs.
Face it, you are the past - and there is much to celebrate about the past not least that is where folk comes from - but times and attitudes change. Like it or not you cannot change it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 01:24 PM

I don't think you have any understanding at all about the ethos of traditional music Sir.

It is not about contorting the music into a saleable item, but what one puts into it without radically changing the music.....the emotional content, the element of audience participation, cherishing the music, polishing it till it shines.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:03 PM

Music can shine, be beautiful, be rooted in tradition and still be saleable. Being saleable or popular is not a sin. The arts have always been part of the fabric of society. they should not be hermetically sealed in some romanticised past. If that happens, they die.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:50 PM

No, music can evolve without it being commercialised or as you "spin" it saleable,and has done for centuries without the help of commercialisation.
Bach is a case in point, Bach did not want to explore equal temperament for commercial reasons, He wished to use modulation which was not possible using the existing temperaments., for artistic reasons
CCE are another case in point, they were formed because some musicians thought the music was being contaminated so they set out to preserve it,
Ironically, through their competetion system they have caused it to evolve in a manner directed by them, they have discouraged regional styles and encouraged through their marking system a CCE style,but their motives were not commercial.
music will evolve, regardless of commercialisation and does not need commercialisation to help it evolve, that does not mean that commercialisation does not change it, what it means is that commercialisation is not the only thing that causes change in the music.
your argument is a weak one because the way you have expressed yourself suggests that music will only evolve through commercialisation, this is complete poppycock balderdash and nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:46 PM

my point is that music will evolve without the assistance of commercialisation, and i have provided examples, so putting forward an argument that commercialisation is good because it causes the music to evolve is a false argument.
music has evolved and continues to evolve for other reasons apart from money making.
JAZZ is another genre where styles have evolved for reasons other than commercialisation, the idea that Bird Parker developed be bop to make money is a joke
In the late 1930s Parker began to practice diligently. During this period he mastered improvisation and developed some of the ideas that led to bebop. In an interview with Paul Desmond, he said that he spent three to four years practicing up to 15 hours a day.[7]

Bands led by Count Basie and Bennie Moten certainly influenced Parker. He played with local bands in jazz clubs around Kansas City, Missouri, where he perfected his technique, with the assistance of Buster Smith, whose dynamic transitions to double and triple time influenced Parker's developing style.

In 1937, Parker played at a jam session at the Reno Club in Kansas City. His attempt to improvise failed when he lost track of the chord changes. This prompted Jo Jones, the drummer for Count Basie's Orchestra, to contemptuously throw a cymbal at his feet as a signal to leave the stage. However, rather than discouraging Parker, the incident caused him to vow to practice harder, and turned out to be a seminal moment in the young musician's career when he returned as a new man a year later.Parker was a highly influential jazz soloist and a leading figure in the development of bebop,[2] a form of jazz characterized by fast tempos, virtuosic technique and advanced harmonies. Parker was a blazingly fast virtuoso, and he introduced revolutionary harmonic ideas including rapid passing chords, new variants of altered chords, and chord substitutions. His tone ranged from clean and penetrating to sweet and somber. Parker acquired the nickname "Yardbird" early in his career.[3] This, and the shortened form "Bird", continued to be used for the rest of his life, inspiring the titles of a number of Parker compositions, such as "Yardbird Suite", "Ornithology", "Bird Gets the Worm", and "Bird of Paradise". Parker was an icon for the hipster subculture and later the Beat Generation, personifying the jazz musician as an uncompromising artist and intellectual rather than just an entertainer.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:58 PM

You really shouldn't copy and paste from Wikipedia without attributing it, Dick. Not good form.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:10 PM

Dick: Music evolves in all sorts of ways. Your way seems to stifle evolution, to try to fix it in the time you think it was "best", the way you have performed it for decades. The Folk Revival was hugely successful in breaking down such antediluvian attitudes and the result was a growth in folk music never seen before.

Other ways promote evolution in a way that is accessible to, dare I say, the younger generation who enjoy folk music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:13 PM

you can't blame the folk awards for the whole direction the folk world moved in.

agreed, its symptomatic of what went wrong and why a generation of pro performers didn't emerge that nowadays cause us to down telly remote and head off to the folk club to be entertained, in the way we did.

but perhaps the lacklustre reflection reflects a lacklustre reality.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:11 AM

Remembering that by its very nature professional musicians are trying to make a living out of playing music; and remembering that this thread is about the Folk Awards; I am left wondering which of the nominees for either best singer or best band are being accused of being too commercialised? As far as the bands go we have Alasdair Roberts' band The Furrow Collection playing things like Hind Horn or The Demon Lover etc; we have Breabach who are a fairly straightforward modern Scottish trad band; we have The Gloaming who I don't know well but seem to be an Irish band fusing trad with elements of modern jazz; and 9Bach who bring in middle eastern influences and sing in Welsh!! Some people may not like some of the arrangements (and surely we've always had people dictating how people should play things?) but in all fairness none of these bands seem to be chasing the pop pound and who is anyone to say that they do not take their music seriously and are only playing it for commercial reasons?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:50 AM

i don't think anybody is being accused of being too commercialised.

just perhaps not really inspirational, when more inspirational models are/have been available.

as my old English teacher used to say of various writers....he doesn't really set the mind on fire.
put it another way - Alan Bennet said of Louis MacNeice, ....he never went overboard and made a fool of himself about boys, politics or whatever: so he didn't make much of a splash.

i didn't used to come home from the folk club, thinking that's a good working musician. i used to think i have shared in magic that i wouldn't have seen sat at home watching the val doonican show.

that's what's gone wrong. and you can't put it right following a tradition or arranging university courses for middle class kids who want to take the risk out of joining the circus.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:58 AM

i didn't used to come home from the folk club, thinking that's a good working musician. i used to think i have shared in magic

Maybe you've just got older, Al?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:18 AM

Oops! I seemed to have opened up a can of worms here.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Awards shouldn't be set up as competative on the night. Instead of having the obnoxtious "..and the winner is!" why can't they just give an award to someone for something well done without all the pseudo-Holywood barff?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM

"Your way seems to stifle evolution,"
my way, i have not advocated anything other than I think it is a good thing for the uk folk scene to have more workshops to improve standards at grass roots level how does that stifle evolution?.
I also suggested that these awards be stopped, how does that stifle evolution, music evolves regardless of commercialisation and i have given examples.
musicians wish to explore and break boundaries for artistic reasons, not commercial reasons, again examples have been provided, commercialism by its nature takes music away from its roots,
its quite true I would like to stop that, however I am not in charge.
i dont wish to stifle music evolution, I wish folk music to be given the right sort of financial and musical support and send it in a direction that helps to raise standards, with higher standards more members of the public will treat the music with better respect
.       Classical music is given a lot of financial support and is subsidised to maintain standards, why should folk music be treated differently,
let us look at Ireland, traditional music is heavily subsidised and included in the mainstream media[ without the music being compromised artistically]it is not necessary for the evolvement and encouragement of music for it to be commercialised.
if you use trad music to promote toothpaste, it promotes the music but artistically it lowers its merit, a beautiful song becomes associated with tooth paste, the image is ruined.
there are lots of ways folk music can evolve, the influence of jazz improvisation for example,Commercialisation is not going to do that job music improvisation workshops will do that.
let us look at the jazz world, my relative Nat Peck played with Glenn Miller,Dizzy Gillespie etc, like many jazz musicians he had to   play as a session man for people like Petula Clark, and satisfy his artistic and musical boundaries playing jazz in non commercial bands like francy boland, he talks about how Glenn Miller band improved artistically and musically after Miller died, in this clip.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FxGVtTdxAo


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:32 AM

2Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM - PM
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:18 AM

Oops! I seemed to have opened up a can of worms here.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Awards shouldn't be set up as competative on the night. Instead of having the obnoxtious "..and the winner is!" why can't they just give an award to someone for something well done without all the pseudo-Holywood barff?"
   
because the BBC has lost the plot, it used to have a remit to some extent to educate, now it is about being commercial about viewing numbers.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:42 AM

they do that shit for people who make cakes.

Ian Anderson of hotVultures/Froots fame just posted his 1968 guest list for his Bristol folk club on FB

Al Stewart. Ralph Mctell, Clive Palmer, Mike Cooper...some others also legendary!


I did get old, but also the acts got worse.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:00 AM

Musically, UK trad music is stifled, by people sticking to certain musicial modes, mathematically there becomes a limit to new tunes being composed, this has nothing to do with commercialisation, but with audiences and paying people have come to equate as a uk/irish, scots welsh trad sound,
use of other modes, and other instruments like sitars which use quarter tones, would help the music to evolve artistically,
again commercialisation,plays very little part in this, mainstream music does not appear[ at this point in time] intersted in turkish or indian music, or the use of the hijaz scale
It is common in Arabic and Egyptian music, in which it is known as Hijaz-Nahawand or Bayati maqam, and used in Hebrew prayers and Klezmer music, where it is known as Ahava Rabbah, Freygish or just the "Jewish scale", and is called Dastgāh-e Homāyoun in Iran
how many hits in the top ten [which is commercial music] use anything but the western major scale, do they use the hijaz scale NO DO they use quarter tones, NO because they play safe they stifle artistic explOration, because they know that turning out and marketing the same old bland unitersting variations on the familiar western music scales will make money, they know that there are a proportion of racists in England who will not buy anything that has a turkish or indian sound, commercialisation in these cases stifles evolution of music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:06 AM

I sing quarter tones, now and again, GSS
Totally unintentially though. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:15 AM

DADGAD, a major evolution on the UKFOLK SCENE. Was it the result of Commercialisation, no no non.
Davy Graham visited Morrocco, he did not go there for commercial reasons, he came across a tradtional instrument called the UD.
He noted the tuning and adapted it for guitar.
if Commercialisation encourages the evolution of music, how come there was no one using the ud on top of the ,plops before Davy Graham went to Morrocco, why ?because the promoters of top of the poops did not think it would be commercial.
this is superbhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UYxS9rAIxg


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:35 AM

Al,

All that I was trying to point out was the fact that as we get older, we probably don't feel the wow factor as much. I'm 50 this year, and love hearing new music both live and recorded in many genres. However, it never gives me quite the same buzz as it might have done as a teenager. I think unfortunately, that's just life...

I did get old, but also the acts got worse.

I really don't think that's fair. There's loads of excellent stuff if you bother to look.

1968 guest list for his Bristol folk club on FB

Al Stewart. Ralph Mctell, Clive Palmer, Mike Cooper...some others also legendary!


If I may make an obvious point? The young artists of today have only just started! How the hell are they supposed to be legendary yet?

Dick,

What the fuck are you on about? Since when has the Phrygian dominant scale been any major part of English folk? I don't know if you try and use your Wikipedia copy and paste approach to make yourself look intellegent or not. BTW, it doesn't...

how many hits...use the hijaz scale NO DO they use quarter tones, NO because they know that familiar western music scales will make money, they know that there are a proportion of racists in England who will not buy anything that has a turkish or indian sound

Wow!!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:35 AM

Al puts it best.....the magic has gone.   and I'm not JUST an old fart, love to listen to people like Brendan Power who has shaped traditional music in a GOOD way, he has found a new way of presenting trad without bleaching it or twisting it out of recognition. Everything he plays has a magical content. Archie Fisher is one of the old brigade, but still can give his songs the breath of life
Windward Away can actually bring tears to my old dimming eyes.

The old performances do not fail with time, go back and listen to what we heard in the sixties, with the exception of a few which did become hackneyed the magic is still there in the life and performance.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:56 AM

Al puts it best.....the magic has gone.

Your view saddens me, akenaton. All things must pass, and everything evolves.

This summer, there will be many thousands of young people watching, playing and dancing to folk music at festivals and having the time of their lives!

Do not begrudge them that...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:04 AM

Just because the phrygian dominant scale has not been used before, why should uk folk music be restricted to its present modes

Fair enough. Come up with some pieces in that mode, and see what the rest of us think of them...

Bet they won't make the charts!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:07 AM

Discovered yesterday, at suggestion of the owner of "The CD Shop" in Sevenoaks, Rose Cousins and Eilen Jewell, what a delight they both are. How lucky they are at not needing recognition from the Muscat folk police!!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:34 AM

The magic has gone? Balls to that. Every month I go to public sessions or singarounds or sessions with mates or concerts and hear wonderful stuff - new tunes that grip me and make me want to go out and find the music on record or on paper or on the web and grab it and play it.

I mentioned in a more recent thread a concert I attended on Friday in Shoreham - three "Celtic" fiddlers and a Breton guitarist. It was a magic evening. Granted, one two of the tunes were a bit old-hat - crowd pleasers, if you like, but there was a substantial selection of great airs. I came away with a book and CD of Breton tunes, written by Christian Lemaitre, the Breton fiddler, and am just working my way through it. A totally new experience for me. I've played the odd Breton tune at a session (an old friend and ex-band member now lives in Brittany and was a devotee of the music) but have never explored its complexities in depth. There'll be hours of pleasure and instruction for me here.

There's always something new and exciting out there if you just get your brain in gear and your ears open.

Just one more point: I do a bit of teaching, some in person and some online (private, personalised videos on my website) and nothing gives me greater pleasure than when someone I've been teaching says, "That was great - I got it!" And the people I give help to are all ages - some in their early twenties, some older than me, i.e. in their mid-70s and older.

This, for me, is what it's all about. Learning music, making music and passing it on. All magic.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Feb 17, 2:03
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:45 AM

GS, you have totally misread or misunderstood what I said. I am beginning to think that you may be here for the sake of argument as you seem not to want to hear other points of view. There is nothing wrong with things being elite, there is nothing wrong with music be popular and commercial.
You just seem to be going in circles, at the grass roots level, that is.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 06:21 PM

you think what you like.you re entitled to your opinions. i disagree, Ithink there is a lot wrong with elitism in music, you think there is nothing wrong with music being popular or commercial, that is an opinion, i have a different opinion, most folk music when it bnecomes commercialised moves further from its roots , i dont like that. that is my opinion, so we will agree to disagree


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 06:23 PM

"This, for me, is what it's all about. Learning music, making music and passing it on. All magic"
I AGREE, ONE OF MY PROUDEST ACHEIVEMENTS IS THAT I TAUGHT GUITAR SUCCESSFULLY TO SOMEONE WITH AUTISM.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM

Thats no big deal Dick, people with autism are as capable as anyone when it comes to learning new skills, they are not disabled in any way they just have a different mindset to most other people.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM

Autism is a blanket phrase covering many levels and varieties of disability. If Dick felt like he'd achieved something - he probably did. You can't say whether it was big deal or not without knowing the person. perhaps to that person it was a very big deal.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 08:49 AM

I'm so glad you wrote that one Guest, cos it highlights quite why so many people are pissed off with the folk awards and the folkocracy.

If Martin carthy or Bob Dylan or Ralph McTell had taught someone with a disability to play the guitar, they would mint an extra award and be going on as though they were Albert Schweitzer. choruses of for h's a jolly good fellow and shouts of can we all kiss your bum please would fill the air.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:06 AM

We can surely debate without digging at people anyway? By that I mean not only the digs there has been at the recipients of the awards but also the dig at Dick! If he feels proud of what he views is an achievement then why should it be dismissed or belittled by someone else who doesn't know the facts? As Al pointed out!

I like a debate with the best of them and I can be a stubborn so and so but try and keep off the personal stuff!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:22 AM

But it clearly is personal. Dick, akenaton, and Big Al clearly have a view that anything they do not like is of no value. Big Al even knows the minds and motivations of Carthy, Dylan and McTell.

All I can say is that, until I came across this forum, I had never heard of Dick Miles or akenaton as performers and have never heard them perform even now.

I have been involved in folk music (and life generally) enough to know that some people get embittered as they get older because youngsters get the recognition they never had because the means of such recognition did not exist.

Modern media makes everything more accessible. It is called progress - embrace or reject it but don't whine about it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:21 PM

"... some people get embittered as they get older because youngsters get the recognition they never had because the means of such recognition did not exist."

That's a cracker :-)
Seconds out - ding! ding!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Pencil of Death
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:25 PM

You don't half talk some shite "Big" Al. Would you listen to yourself?

"You can't put it right following a tradition or arranging university courses for middle class kids who want to take the risk out of joining the circus.

I know you don't particularly like young traditional singers - there's plenty around I find pretty bland myself - but this blanket assumption that they are all middle class kids with a folk degree is as tedious as it is false. But, hey - don't let facts get in the way of the opportunity for another bilious whinge, eh? The truth is, most young people playing folk music of one sort or another have come about as close as you to a folk music degree.

I did get old, but also the acts got worse.

Then you're clearly looking in all the wrong places. If you want to hear excellent young performers playing folk music - in all senses of the word - the last place you'll find most of them is the folk club. As it ever was - including, no doubt, in your day, when folk clubs filled this role in way they can't any more because of their aging demographic - most young people are attracted to places that other young people go to. Quite apart from the music, the sex and drugs are better. That's not to say there aren't all-ages tunes sessions like Will's - we have one near us that's rammed every week with people of all ages - but the old style folk club is generally more Darby and Joan than down with the kids.

"I can think of a whole generation of young singers that should have been nurtured by the folk scene, but weren't."

Name names, then. And did you check with them whether the actually wanted to be "nurtured by the folk scene"?

"And the folk establishment is SO bloody smarmy, middle class and offensive.. at major festivals you see them smarming over some young puppy, whose parent played the third yoyo on the 60's folkscene. Totally forgiving their lack of talent, stage presence, instrumental ability, preparedness to perform....and generally pissing away the creative opportunity that should have gone to someone far more dedicated. If you haven't noticed this, you're blind."

You really like to present yourself to the world as if you were a prize turd, don't you? Once again, if there is any truth in your generalisations, name bloody names.

Ok, this is thread about the Folk Awards, supposedly, so I'll give you Alasdair Roberts from the Furrow Collective, who are nominated for an award. This is man who has been at it since he was a teenager, clocking up numerous albums - both in his own right and as collaborations, both original material and traditional. He's a brilliant fingerstyle guitarist who uses multiple tunings and has his own unique way of presenting traditional material and writes beautiful, totally original songs. He's clocked up hundreds of gigs - very few on the folk scene. He's easily the equal of the Stewarts and McTells of this world - in my view he's far more inventive that either of them - though he'd probably see himself more in the tradition of Clive Palmer or Robin Williamson or Bert Jansch than either of those. If you think he's someone you can sneer at as a middle class folk degree type, you really do have your head up your backside. Or you're twisting facts to fit your jaundiced worldview. Oh, and as this seems to be important to you, he's an excellent between-song raconteur, too, though you may be disappointed he doesn't go in for the sort of dodgy jokes some of the folk singer comedians from the so-called golden age were overly fond of (this is by-the-by, but I've heard live tapes of various of the 1970s folk club performers and some of the material wouldn't sound out of place at an EDL social. I won't name names because they might have grown up a bit since then, and if so I wouldn't want to embarrass them, but, jeez, it was sad).

Alasdair Roberts - I Went Hunting
.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:34 PM

I've stated quite clearly and categorically that I'm not in favour of awards - and I can see the viewpoints of those people who are in favour of them. I've also made it clear, I hope, that I have no prejudice either way regarding musicians because of age. I'm also up in the modern media and technological world - teaching online, a fairly substantial YouTube presence (nearly 13,000 subscribers to my channel and over 8,000,000 views of my videos), up-to-date websites, etc. - so I'm fully aware of the power of modern media.

What I haven't done is clearly explain my antipathy towards awards systems, an antipathy which is not based on jealousy, reverse ageism (youthism?), resentment or an old-fashioned view of the "tradition". Not being a traditional singer, but mainly a player of tunes and a singer in other genres, the tradition doesn't bother me. So, my reasoning, particularly in the context of music awards, goes:

Music, and what constitutes good, bad or indifferent styles and performances, is a completely personal, subjective and immeasurable art in many respects. One has only to look at the threads on opera and other likes and dislikes in this forum, for example, to see a range of subjective, and perfectly acceptable opinions on all sorts of music and musicians. The nominees for the current crop of BBC folk awards all seem to be fine musicians to me - I wouldn't care to pick a "winner", so what makes them different - any worse or any better or any more striking - than many others working in the field? We can all present our own reasons why X or Y or Z should be the recipient of some award or other, but even the collected reasoning of many people does not necessarily imply the actual superiority of X or Y or Z. It is still a set of personal and subjective likes and dislikes on the part of the judges, about whose own prejudices we know very little.

There are many , many people in this world who do good things without thought of awards and without receiving awards - and many who get awards for what I think are tenuous reasons - the KCMGs, CMGs, etc., handed out as a matter of course to Civil Servants (parodied nicely in "Yes Minister"). While the awards systems in music may bring brief publicity, they mean very little in the ongoing stream of performances and performers by the unsung heroes who also provide excellent music. (If you want some real controversy, look at the current rage and anger over the "white" bias in the Grammy Awards).

One last thought. I also wonder whether - as some have said - that the publicity over the BBC Folk Awards will actually increase the number of people who listen into the music. I see no evidence either way.

So, you may not agree with my thoughts - no reason you should - but I hope they're clear.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:50 PM

Mooriss-ey, you have not heard me perform, that is easily rectifiedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_yjf4nSeWc
I have been performing professionally IN uk Folk clubs and festivals since 1976, this is not opinion, but fact.Ihave been consitently booked since 1976, 40 years
I am not sure why Miorriss_ey has to state that he has never heard me perform,I am not sure of the relevance of it to the discussion.
my performing abilty is surely not relevant to whether i am entitled to an opinion.
are all the other contributors to this thread performers?
"One last thought. I also wonder whether - as some have said - that the publicity over the BBC Folk Awards will actually increase the number of people who listen into the music. I see no evidence either way."
I agree with this statement.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 01:20 PM

"One last thought. I also wonder whether - as some have said - that the publicity over the BBC Folk Awards will actually increase the number of people who listen into the music. I see no evidence either way."
Since I too see no evidence, so I cannot see their point.
I believe that if something has no point it might as well be stopped. I have stated logically. my view point above.
I do see a point in holding workshops to improve performance at grass root level.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 01:57 PM

When if all things with no point stopped, that would be it for football...just a thought, and it really is elitist.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM

the point of foot ball is for 22 people to get exercise while one team attempts to win ,why is that pointless?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:32 PM

well all that remains is to wish you joy of the ever expanding number of performers and ever diminishing audience of the folkscene.

basically POD - you deserve each other. if you won't own up to the fact that something is rotten in state of Denmark - don't blame the soothsayer when the stage is full of dead bodies and lifeless music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:39 PM

Don't worry, Al. When you're dead the music will keep flowing...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Pencil of Death
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:09 PM

The point is, Al, that it's all out there, the stuff you think no longer exists (well, maybe not the singing comedians with between-songs racist, sexist and homophobic jokes, but that's no great loss). It's just that it's not taking place on the folk scene. The musicians are doing their own thing, without needing the validation of the last remnants of a 60s/70s throwback scene. There are people out there who look to Michael Chapman and the ISB and Bert & John and Nic Jones and Martin Carthy and the Watersons and Shelagh McDonald and Bonnie Dobson and so on as inspiration, but who you'll never see in a circa 2017 folk club, because it's not their scene. Open your ears - you might enjoy yourself.

No dead bodies and lifeless music at the gigs I go to. Well, there might be the odd dead body in the lyrics.

Meg Baird in session


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 08:24 PM

lifeless music is opinion, Iam sure you hear plenty of good music, so do I SOME ARE YOUNG PEOPLE SOME ARE OLD, FOR EXAMPLE ONE 86 YEAR OLD ACCORDIONIST AND ONE 26 YEAR OLD.
there is good folk music being played by people of all ages some of it in folk clubs some of it elsewhere


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:48 PM

hmmmmm......hard to explain what was so potent about the early folk revival.

i will try - not in unfriendly way. nor in a misty eyed way, but i will try to be analytical, which isn't my style, but it perhaps would explain my fascination with the music, and i think will explain why it worked then, and frankly why the audiences for all these admittedly great instrumentalists are missing.

first of all. it was intelligent music, and it involved rejection of our parents values - which maybe sounds weird for traditional music. but you left your parents at home watching dixon of dock green.

secondly and most important - most people are scaredy cats/ most of us   - if you're bright enough to love this music - get the o levels, go to college, follow a safe career trajectory that ones parents approve of.

think of john lennon going to hamburg against the strictures of aunt mimi. the people who became folksingers weren't like the rest of us. they were extraordinary people with attitude and charisma to burn. there was this air about them of a the gunfighter come to town - and if they couldn't fulfil this, the audience would pick it up in a heartbeat.

i can't explain how strange and other worldly a group like the watersons sounded with their tales of ancient magic - looking like a band of wandering gypsies. how bohemian Jansch seemed with his inexplicable guitar skill and the air of smokey soho jazz cellars seemed to cling to him.

i suppose what i am saying , that even when they were very young - these people seemed to have an intriguing back story, they were different to most of us. they were exotics.

i dunno how they did it, but they did.

todays singers remind me a bit of when the comic lenny bruce was invited for an evening to the home of the jazz critic Nat Hentoff. lenny said, nat and his wife are nice people - but they're old. they keep asking you if you've had enough to eat.

they make me feel like nat hentoff.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Pencil of Death
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 04:22 AM

Got to hand it to you, Al. In all my years of lurking around Mudcat, that's the best post I've ever read from you.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:43 AM

I haven't heard of any of these people, how strange.

Aside from Jim Moray that is, but that bloke lost me when he put electronic drums in "Lord Franklin"

Electronic house music sounding bass drum... Why Jim... Why oh why would you do that?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:06 AM

It is good that so many people have strong opinions on the way the folk scene has developed,how it has changed and what it needs and have taken the effort to post their ideas here.
It made me wonder if any of those taking part here make efforts to see things happen in the way they would like by organising events themselves. I know that Dick organises a festival in his part of south-east Ireland and I know from long personal experience how much effort is involved in that. I also know that Mike (Will Fly) runs sessions and comperes a folk club.
Anyone else?
It's just that I would take more notice of the posts from those who have the hands on experience of being organisers to make things happen in the way that they would approve of.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:21 AM

Vic

99% of people who enjoy folk have no experience of organising folk events. Why should that make the opinions of those that do any more valid?

I have never composed a symphony, does that mean I can have no valid opinion as to which symphonies I prefer to listen to?

This is nothing to do with organising folk events - some here have an antipathy to "awards" and programmes about awards. No one is asking them to organise such an event.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:21 PM

"99% of people who enjoy folk have no experience of organising folk event"
What statistics do you have to back up your statement?
I reckon that there are more people than you think who enjoy folk music who have organised a folk event, but what would I know I have only been going to clubs and festivals since 1967? and of course during that period, 50 years, I have met a lot of organisers, one thing i have noticed is that a significant number of people who are interested in folk music, have also organised folk events. VicSmith has been involved even longer than me, he too is involved in running a festival and ran a folk club for over 40 years possibly longer, it might be nearer 50.one phenomenon I have noticed is that this genre of music attracts a lot of people who get active in promoting or organising.
The people who organise these awards, one of them, Robin Garside was a WELL KNOWN performer.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 02:31 PM

Dick, if there is point to be missed you will miss it.

It really is waste of time dealing with you.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 02:42 PM

well the thing is Morris-ey, if you haven't organised a folk event....you can sort of indulge your opinions. however if you have to think in terms of who is capable of doing what - its a bit of a cold splash of reality.

you really do have to think of who is capable and experienced at dealing with your available venues. who will put bums on seats. who can be trusted with a family audience. who needs a PA system. who will insist on you supplying them with facilities you haven't got. and a hundred other things that can give you a more critical view of an artist than someone who happens to have their cd.

well....you did ask.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 04:23 PM

And the folk establishment is SO bloody smarmy, middle class and offensive.. at major festivals you see them smarming over some young puppy, whose parent played the third yoyo on the 60's folkscene. Totally forgiving their lack of talent, stage presence, instrumental ability, preparedness to perform....and generally pissing away the creative opportunity that should have gone to someone far more dedicated.

If you haven't noticed this. You're blind.


I can't even remember who said that now but it smacks of someone who has been disregarded by those that he or she sees as the 'folk establishment'. It denigrates the thousands of people who put their heart and soul into running folk clubs and festivals, for no reward only get this type of comment in return. Whoever you are, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Or. to put it more succinctly, fuck off and look to why your so called 'talents' have not got you more air tome at festivals and folk clubs.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM

Big Al
You answered a question I most certainly did not ask.

If you can show how organising a folk club, in the context of this thread, which is about award ceremonies and the value of award ceremonies, gives anyone insight or expertise then I would love to hear it.

I have been to some truly awful folk clubs run by people who think they know folk music and/or are good performers themselves.

Why are folk clubs dying? Look to the old farts who run them - badly.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:09 PM

Morriss_ey, you have not or cannot answer my question, it really is a waste of time dealing with you.
hilaroius.."Why are folk clubs dying? Look to the old farts who run them - badly."
some of those organisers have been running them for many years, if they had been running them badly for 40/50 years how come they ran for so long? your comment doesnt make sense
your comment is simplistic and insulting, people who resort to insulting others demonstrate the weakness of their argument
"Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong"Rousseau


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:34 PM

no Dave - nothing to do with me. i firmly believe nobody got to hear the best songwriters of my generation, which unfortunately i do not number myself among.

i know what i saw and what i see, at loads of festivals. as usual. you crawl up the arse of those you see as ....the prevalent view. carry on crawling...

maybe they'll let you buy them a drink.

i've spent most of my life organising folk clubs, helping out at festivals, etc. i very much doubt if you have tenth of my experience, as anybody who knows me personally could tell you.

Morris-et (how ironic!), I apologise if i have misunderstood what you are saying,,,sorry! expertise or insight into what?
i'm actually quite happy for the bbc folk lot to carry on as per. they don't do much for me. but as you can see from above there will always be someone to kiss the bums of the high and mighty.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DEATH
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:39 PM

Not much wonder the UK folk clubs are dying these days, to judge by the opinions above - thankfully the music will survive despite them.
And at worst, the "Folk Awards" will do no harm whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:40 PM

ps
'I have been to some truly awful folk clubs run by people who think they know folk music and/or are good performers themselves.'

tell me about it! my wife won't go out to folk clubs with me any more!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 07:22 PM

well i would have said theres a pretty wide spread of opinions in the thread.

what most of us have in common is that we have goodwill towards folkclubs, and would like to see them doing better.

what the answer is i really don't know.

you see celtic bands go down a storm at festivals, but its uneconomic for them to play folk clubs.

the young singer songwriters start recording at seventeen or less. its not unusual to meet people who have made three or four albums without writing a memorable song. but then again...who thought Nick Drake's songs were memorable in his lifetime.

as someone said ...there are good songwriters like Gaz Brookfield who never play folk clubs. i can only think of Steve Hicks as a guitarist of jaw dropping ability who plays folk venues. since the rather synthetic imposition of a 'tradition' - we have lost a great trenche of talent to other places, venues and countries.

its a conundrum, but if it is ever to come right - that sort of argy bargy where we scream down each others opinions has no place.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 09:23 AM

MEAN WHILE,
Organisers of festivals and folk clubs such as Vic Smith[ over 50 years running a club and presnt involvement organising a festival] are providing venues for performers and helping them to make a living.
the radio 2 folk awards do a much smaller amount in comparison to all the organisers to provide musicians with a living.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 07:09 AM

Link to another 2017 award at
Folking.com

thread.cfm?threadid=161807


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 11:06 AM

The second post which mentions 'celebs you didn't know were folkies' raised a hollow laugh. As he/she said "not seen any of them at the local folk club". I can't watch this BBC programme because of this display of desperate need to be on camera. I had personal evidence of this years back when one comedian I booked and hosted regularly was scathing in his loathing for folk music, when the subject came up in conversation. Then, there he was at this awards event, presented as a 'folk fan' getting on the telly when his regular home now seems to be radio (News Quiz etc). Where's the evidence? Stephen Fry for instance seems to prefer to make music programmes about Wagner.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 10:47 PM

i don't think we should revive this thread.
there's obviously a rift in opinion. a divergence.
absolutely nothing will sort it out.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 03:05 AM

Winners:

Folk Singer of the Year: Kris Drever
Best Duo: Ross Ainslie & Ali Hutton
Best Group: The Furrow Collective
Best Album: Songs of Separation - Songs of Separation
Horizon Award: Daoirí Farrell
Musician of the Year: Rachel Newton
Young Folk Award: Josie Duncan & Pablo Lafuente
Best Original Song: If Wishes Were Horses - Kris Drever
Best Traditional Track: Van Diemen's Land - Daoirí Farrell
Lifetime Achievement Award: Al Stewart and Ry Cooder
Hall Of Fame inductee: Woody Guthrie

LFF


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 03:51 AM

Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Long Firm Freddie - PM
"Date: 06 Apr 17 - 03:05 AM

Winners:

Folk Singer of the Year: Kris Drever
Best Duo: Ross Ainslie & Ali Hutton
Best Group: The Furrow Collective
Best Album: Songs of Separation - Songs of Separation
Horizon Award: Daoirí Farrell
Musician of the Year: Rachel Newton
Young Folk Award: Josie Duncan & Pablo Lafuente
Best Original Song: If Wishes Were Horses - Kris Drever
Best Traditional Track: Van Diemen's Land - Daoirí Farrell
Lifetime Achievement Award: Al Stewart and Ry Cooder
Hall Of Fame inductee: Woody Guthrie"
with the exception of Woody[ who is no longer with us]
I wish them success, and may they go on to make lots of money, and all have hits in the top ten pop charts


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM

I was gutted that Jim Moray didn't win anything as I consider that his new CD 'Upcetera' is one of the best releases this century - up there with Jon Boden's 'Songs From The Floodplain'

Congratulations to all winners


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 04:13 AM

Isn't it about time that Pete Coe qualified for the lifetime award? Or is he too young?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 04:16 AM

"I wish them success, and may they go on to make lots of money, and all have hits in the top ten pop charts".

Hear, hear.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 05:33 AM

Jo Cox - did I miss a mention of her name?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM

And Pete Coe - he is far too lively.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 06:20 AM

"Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Joe G - PM
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM

I was gutted that Jim Moray didn't win anything as I consider that his new CD 'Upcetera' is one of the best releases this century - up there with Jon Boden's 'Songs From The Floodplain'

Congratulations to all winners"
I daresay your subjective opinion is as good as the judges, which just exposes the meaningless no sense of these awards, completely the antithesis of why I got involved in this music, it should not be about competitions that further peoples careers, or the whims of a few judges.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 06:23 AM

If i had the misfortune to have been awarded an MBE, i would return it, i would also refuse one of these awards, i would refuse the cecil sharp awards, i dont agree with any of this carry on.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 06:38 AM

There seems to be a very strong Scottish contingent among the winners this year.

I'm especially pleased for Rachael Newton.

Over the years, there has always been complaints from the Scottish "panel" that their nominations, votes etc were always ignored. Not so this time, it seems, unless the procedure has been changed.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 08:14 AM

Let me say that Fay Hield is the Queen of folk!!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM

twould be nice if they'd consider a special posthumous one for Derek Brimstone, whom I believe, meant a lot to a lot of people on the folk scene.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 06:15 AM

Al .
Derek will be rememberd by many, he was an outstanding raconteur and performer he will be rembered for his perfomances.
Voting[edit]
"The nominees in most categories are chosen by a panel of 150 representatives from the British folk world, including broadcasters, journalists, record producers, festival organisers, venue bookers, record company directors, agents and promoters. The panelists can vary slightly from year to year, with new panelists being invited (or self-applying) each year. The final panel is selected by the Folk Awards committee, which includes staff from the BBC, the production company 7digital Creative, and representatives from outside those organisations.[4]

The 'Best Original Track' and 'Best Traditional Track' categories are chosen by smaller specialist panels of judges, and the BBC Radio 2 Young Folk Award - presented as part of the Folk Awards - is decided by a standalone contest.[4]

The 'Best Album' category is decided by a public vote, hosted on the BBC website."
That says it all, A COMPETITION DECIDED BY A GROUP OF PEOPLE WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN COMMERCIALISM [some of whom have a vested intrest in promoting their own performers] even the "Best Album" only reflects the subjective opinions of those who can be bothered to vote.
it is a commercial charade, and nothing more than a musical circus


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 09:41 AM

But it raises the profile of the genre and provides an opportunity to bring many people together to celebrate the amazing music being made across the UK - that to me is a good thing

I do find it sad though that the role of the folk club in supporting artists is now ignored in the awards

There is room for the awards just as there is room for clubs, singarounds, dance teams and other aspects of the music


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 10:35 AM

even the "Best Album" only reflects subjective opinions

Wow! Thank you for that, Dick. I wouldn't ever have realised that if not for your insightful observation.

How would you like your undoubted brilliance to be rewarded?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 12:32 PM

guest ed, Sarcasm is the refuge of a shallow mind.so fuck off


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM

But on occasion it highlights somewhat ridiculous views. But given how entrenched your stance is, there really isn't much point...

Have a nice evening.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 12:52 PM

in your opinion my views are ridiculous?yet you cannot explain why you think they are ridiculous.
Joe Grint on the other hand says there is room for these rewards, why is there room for rewards that end up discouraging the majority of young performers?and only encourage a small minority of people.
no, these awards are elitist.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 01:01 PM

in your opinion my views are ridiculous?yet you cannot explain why you think they are ridiculous

Well I could have if you'd bothered to ask me. But you didn't...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 01:19 PM

How do you know they discourage people Dick? Do the Young Folk awards also discourage people - or indeed the BBC Young (Classical) Musician Awards?

I know we are not likely to agree on this - and I do have some reservations about awards but on balance feel they are an ok thing given the attention they get from the wider media (and thus potentially from new audiences who may go on to discover more about grassroots folk)

I am involved in the Yorkshire Gig Guide Grassroots Awards (multi genre) - like the BBC Folk Awards our Awards are not perfect but they provide a great opportunity for many in the live music scene to come together to celebrate the diversity and wealth of music in Yorkshire


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 12:13 PM

Sunday 9th April - BBC Four, 10.00pm :
"For the first time The Radio 2 Folk Awards are being televised with an hour long highlights package, a sign of the increased popularity of the once-maligned genre"
Enjoy !


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 02:15 PM

i'm sure its been maligned more than once....


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 03:44 PM

bump - might be interesting to see how it comes across on TV as opposed to radio.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:30 AM

Piece of ridiculous, self congratulary shite. Elitist nonsense which has no connection to music of the people.

I watched as much as I could stomach on TV.   
I was just an expensive gig for luvvies!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 04:35 AM

Mmm, there was very little focus on the actual award winners themselves or samples of their work.

Plenty of attention given to the "luvvies" who announced them though. So, I'm almost in agreement with Akenaton here.

Of course, the programme was edited for TV and they decided to to mainly feature the live performances but these were not, mainly, the winning acts.

The Scots Trad Awards is arguably more balanced on TV even although BBC Alba edit and produce it to appear like a Gaelic Awards programme even although it's not.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM

Ah yes, "no connection to the music of the people". Quite true, there was no sign at all of Daniel O'Donnell.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 06:38 AM

The highlights were squeezed in with some winners (ie Furrow Collection for best band) getting no more than a couple of seconds clip. The whole thing though was on the red button for a while. I am not sure why only the highlights were shown and why the highlights only are on I-Player. Considering how many repeats etc are on there you'd think they could just show the entire event!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 01:25 PM

"Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:30 AM

Piece of ridiculous, self congratulary shite. Elitist nonsense which has no connection to music of the people.

I watched as much as I could stomach on TV.   
I was just an expensive gig for luvvies!"
Spot ON


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 04:46 AM

Tracks from the nominated musicians, on Spotify
BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017
http://open.spotify.com/album/4tpQBeGUHdNoEBUqPQJ4J5

& others not on that album
Josienne Clarke and Ben Walker
http://open.spotify.com/album/7wkd8uGGBjwGsxcV9LXeyz (2016)

Martin Green - Flit
http://open.spotify.com/album/7piZV2f8ZoAzIbKy7Kokjk 

Mohsen Amini --------

If Wishes Were Horses by Kris Drever
http://open.spotify.com/track/6ASiyqGXvbOr7MqAE8DsVc

Roll Away by Martin Green feat. Adam Holmes
http://open.spotify.com/track/1GRayKhbqAqTIjt6c4Bk9k

Van Diemen's Land by Daoiri Farrell
http://open.spotify.com/track/5IO2WqbAmjAf2cvt4ThRgJ 


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 08:28 AM

whoever was responsible for editing the highlights show needs to rethink his/her career...

piss poor shoddy work...

school kids doing education video projects would hand in a better finished production..


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