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Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations

Big Al Whittle 20 Feb 17 - 11:48 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 20 Feb 17 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Pencil of Death 20 Feb 17 - 03:09 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 17 - 02:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Feb 17 - 02:32 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 17 - 01:57 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 20 Feb 17 - 01:20 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 20 Feb 17 - 12:50 PM
Will Fly 20 Feb 17 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Pencil of Death 20 Feb 17 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,DTM 20 Feb 17 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 20 Feb 17 - 11:22 AM
Allan Conn 20 Feb 17 - 11:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Feb 17 - 08:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 19 Feb 17 - 06:23 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 19 Feb 17 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,Feb 17, 2:03 19 Feb 17 - 10:45 AM
Will Fly 19 Feb 17 - 10:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 19 Feb 17 - 10:07 AM
GUEST 19 Feb 17 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Ed 19 Feb 17 - 09:56 AM
akenaton 19 Feb 17 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Ed 19 Feb 17 - 08:35 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 19 Feb 17 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,DTM 19 Feb 17 - 08:06 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 19 Feb 17 - 08:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Feb 17 - 07:42 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 19 Feb 17 - 07:32 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 19 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,DTM 19 Feb 17 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Ed 19 Feb 17 - 04:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Feb 17 - 04:50 AM
Allan Conn 19 Feb 17 - 04:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Feb 17 - 09:13 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 18 Feb 17 - 06:10 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 17 - 05:58 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 18 Feb 17 - 05:46 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 18 Feb 17 - 04:50 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 17 - 02:03 PM
akenaton 18 Feb 17 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 18 Feb 17 - 01:15 PM
akenaton 18 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 18 Feb 17 - 12:28 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 17 - 09:55 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 18 Feb 17 - 07:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Ed 16 Feb 17 - 03:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:48 PM

hmmmmm......hard to explain what was so potent about the early folk revival.

i will try - not in unfriendly way. nor in a misty eyed way, but i will try to be analytical, which isn't my style, but it perhaps would explain my fascination with the music, and i think will explain why it worked then, and frankly why the audiences for all these admittedly great instrumentalists are missing.

first of all. it was intelligent music, and it involved rejection of our parents values - which maybe sounds weird for traditional music. but you left your parents at home watching dixon of dock green.

secondly and most important - most people are scaredy cats/ most of us   - if you're bright enough to love this music - get the o levels, go to college, follow a safe career trajectory that ones parents approve of.

think of john lennon going to hamburg against the strictures of aunt mimi. the people who became folksingers weren't like the rest of us. they were extraordinary people with attitude and charisma to burn. there was this air about them of a the gunfighter come to town - and if they couldn't fulfil this, the audience would pick it up in a heartbeat.

i can't explain how strange and other worldly a group like the watersons sounded with their tales of ancient magic - looking like a band of wandering gypsies. how bohemian Jansch seemed with his inexplicable guitar skill and the air of smokey soho jazz cellars seemed to cling to him.

i suppose what i am saying , that even when they were very young - these people seemed to have an intriguing back story, they were different to most of us. they were exotics.

i dunno how they did it, but they did.

todays singers remind me a bit of when the comic lenny bruce was invited for an evening to the home of the jazz critic Nat Hentoff. lenny said, nat and his wife are nice people - but they're old. they keep asking you if you've had enough to eat.

they make me feel like nat hentoff.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 08:24 PM

lifeless music is opinion, Iam sure you hear plenty of good music, so do I SOME ARE YOUNG PEOPLE SOME ARE OLD, FOR EXAMPLE ONE 86 YEAR OLD ACCORDIONIST AND ONE 26 YEAR OLD.
there is good folk music being played by people of all ages some of it in folk clubs some of it elsewhere


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Pencil of Death
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:09 PM

The point is, Al, that it's all out there, the stuff you think no longer exists (well, maybe not the singing comedians with between-songs racist, sexist and homophobic jokes, but that's no great loss). It's just that it's not taking place on the folk scene. The musicians are doing their own thing, without needing the validation of the last remnants of a 60s/70s throwback scene. There are people out there who look to Michael Chapman and the ISB and Bert & John and Nic Jones and Martin Carthy and the Watersons and Shelagh McDonald and Bonnie Dobson and so on as inspiration, but who you'll never see in a circa 2017 folk club, because it's not their scene. Open your ears - you might enjoy yourself.

No dead bodies and lifeless music at the gigs I go to. Well, there might be the odd dead body in the lyrics.

Meg Baird in session


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:39 PM

Don't worry, Al. When you're dead the music will keep flowing...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:32 PM

well all that remains is to wish you joy of the ever expanding number of performers and ever diminishing audience of the folkscene.

basically POD - you deserve each other. if you won't own up to the fact that something is rotten in state of Denmark - don't blame the soothsayer when the stage is full of dead bodies and lifeless music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM

the point of foot ball is for 22 people to get exercise while one team attempts to win ,why is that pointless?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 01:57 PM

When if all things with no point stopped, that would be it for football...just a thought, and it really is elitist.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 01:20 PM

"One last thought. I also wonder whether - as some have said - that the publicity over the BBC Folk Awards will actually increase the number of people who listen into the music. I see no evidence either way."
Since I too see no evidence, so I cannot see their point.
I believe that if something has no point it might as well be stopped. I have stated logically. my view point above.
I do see a point in holding workshops to improve performance at grass root level.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:50 PM

Mooriss-ey, you have not heard me perform, that is easily rectifiedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_yjf4nSeWc
I have been performing professionally IN uk Folk clubs and festivals since 1976, this is not opinion, but fact.Ihave been consitently booked since 1976, 40 years
I am not sure why Miorriss_ey has to state that he has never heard me perform,I am not sure of the relevance of it to the discussion.
my performing abilty is surely not relevant to whether i am entitled to an opinion.
are all the other contributors to this thread performers?
"One last thought. I also wonder whether - as some have said - that the publicity over the BBC Folk Awards will actually increase the number of people who listen into the music. I see no evidence either way."
I agree with this statement.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:34 PM

I've stated quite clearly and categorically that I'm not in favour of awards - and I can see the viewpoints of those people who are in favour of them. I've also made it clear, I hope, that I have no prejudice either way regarding musicians because of age. I'm also up in the modern media and technological world - teaching online, a fairly substantial YouTube presence (nearly 13,000 subscribers to my channel and over 8,000,000 views of my videos), up-to-date websites, etc. - so I'm fully aware of the power of modern media.

What I haven't done is clearly explain my antipathy towards awards systems, an antipathy which is not based on jealousy, reverse ageism (youthism?), resentment or an old-fashioned view of the "tradition". Not being a traditional singer, but mainly a player of tunes and a singer in other genres, the tradition doesn't bother me. So, my reasoning, particularly in the context of music awards, goes:

Music, and what constitutes good, bad or indifferent styles and performances, is a completely personal, subjective and immeasurable art in many respects. One has only to look at the threads on opera and other likes and dislikes in this forum, for example, to see a range of subjective, and perfectly acceptable opinions on all sorts of music and musicians. The nominees for the current crop of BBC folk awards all seem to be fine musicians to me - I wouldn't care to pick a "winner", so what makes them different - any worse or any better or any more striking - than many others working in the field? We can all present our own reasons why X or Y or Z should be the recipient of some award or other, but even the collected reasoning of many people does not necessarily imply the actual superiority of X or Y or Z. It is still a set of personal and subjective likes and dislikes on the part of the judges, about whose own prejudices we know very little.

There are many , many people in this world who do good things without thought of awards and without receiving awards - and many who get awards for what I think are tenuous reasons - the KCMGs, CMGs, etc., handed out as a matter of course to Civil Servants (parodied nicely in "Yes Minister"). While the awards systems in music may bring brief publicity, they mean very little in the ongoing stream of performances and performers by the unsung heroes who also provide excellent music. (If you want some real controversy, look at the current rage and anger over the "white" bias in the Grammy Awards).

One last thought. I also wonder whether - as some have said - that the publicity over the BBC Folk Awards will actually increase the number of people who listen into the music. I see no evidence either way.

So, you may not agree with my thoughts - no reason you should - but I hope they're clear.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Pencil of Death
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:25 PM

You don't half talk some shite "Big" Al. Would you listen to yourself?

"You can't put it right following a tradition or arranging university courses for middle class kids who want to take the risk out of joining the circus.

I know you don't particularly like young traditional singers - there's plenty around I find pretty bland myself - but this blanket assumption that they are all middle class kids with a folk degree is as tedious as it is false. But, hey - don't let facts get in the way of the opportunity for another bilious whinge, eh? The truth is, most young people playing folk music of one sort or another have come about as close as you to a folk music degree.

I did get old, but also the acts got worse.

Then you're clearly looking in all the wrong places. If you want to hear excellent young performers playing folk music - in all senses of the word - the last place you'll find most of them is the folk club. As it ever was - including, no doubt, in your day, when folk clubs filled this role in way they can't any more because of their aging demographic - most young people are attracted to places that other young people go to. Quite apart from the music, the sex and drugs are better. That's not to say there aren't all-ages tunes sessions like Will's - we have one near us that's rammed every week with people of all ages - but the old style folk club is generally more Darby and Joan than down with the kids.

"I can think of a whole generation of young singers that should have been nurtured by the folk scene, but weren't."

Name names, then. And did you check with them whether the actually wanted to be "nurtured by the folk scene"?

"And the folk establishment is SO bloody smarmy, middle class and offensive.. at major festivals you see them smarming over some young puppy, whose parent played the third yoyo on the 60's folkscene. Totally forgiving their lack of talent, stage presence, instrumental ability, preparedness to perform....and generally pissing away the creative opportunity that should have gone to someone far more dedicated. If you haven't noticed this, you're blind."

You really like to present yourself to the world as if you were a prize turd, don't you? Once again, if there is any truth in your generalisations, name bloody names.

Ok, this is thread about the Folk Awards, supposedly, so I'll give you Alasdair Roberts from the Furrow Collective, who are nominated for an award. This is man who has been at it since he was a teenager, clocking up numerous albums - both in his own right and as collaborations, both original material and traditional. He's a brilliant fingerstyle guitarist who uses multiple tunings and has his own unique way of presenting traditional material and writes beautiful, totally original songs. He's clocked up hundreds of gigs - very few on the folk scene. He's easily the equal of the Stewarts and McTells of this world - in my view he's far more inventive that either of them - though he'd probably see himself more in the tradition of Clive Palmer or Robin Williamson or Bert Jansch than either of those. If you think he's someone you can sneer at as a middle class folk degree type, you really do have your head up your backside. Or you're twisting facts to fit your jaundiced worldview. Oh, and as this seems to be important to you, he's an excellent between-song raconteur, too, though you may be disappointed he doesn't go in for the sort of dodgy jokes some of the folk singer comedians from the so-called golden age were overly fond of (this is by-the-by, but I've heard live tapes of various of the 1970s folk club performers and some of the material wouldn't sound out of place at an EDL social. I won't name names because they might have grown up a bit since then, and if so I wouldn't want to embarrass them, but, jeez, it was sad).

Alasdair Roberts - I Went Hunting
.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 12:21 PM

"... some people get embittered as they get older because youngsters get the recognition they never had because the means of such recognition did not exist."

That's a cracker :-)
Seconds out - ding! ding!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:22 AM

But it clearly is personal. Dick, akenaton, and Big Al clearly have a view that anything they do not like is of no value. Big Al even knows the minds and motivations of Carthy, Dylan and McTell.

All I can say is that, until I came across this forum, I had never heard of Dick Miles or akenaton as performers and have never heard them perform even now.

I have been involved in folk music (and life generally) enough to know that some people get embittered as they get older because youngsters get the recognition they never had because the means of such recognition did not exist.

Modern media makes everything more accessible. It is called progress - embrace or reject it but don't whine about it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:06 AM

We can surely debate without digging at people anyway? By that I mean not only the digs there has been at the recipients of the awards but also the dig at Dick! If he feels proud of what he views is an achievement then why should it be dismissed or belittled by someone else who doesn't know the facts? As Al pointed out!

I like a debate with the best of them and I can be a stubborn so and so but try and keep off the personal stuff!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 08:49 AM

I'm so glad you wrote that one Guest, cos it highlights quite why so many people are pissed off with the folk awards and the folkocracy.

If Martin carthy or Bob Dylan or Ralph McTell had taught someone with a disability to play the guitar, they would mint an extra award and be going on as though they were Albert Schweitzer. choruses of for h's a jolly good fellow and shouts of can we all kiss your bum please would fill the air.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM

Autism is a blanket phrase covering many levels and varieties of disability. If Dick felt like he'd achieved something - he probably did. You can't say whether it was big deal or not without knowing the person. perhaps to that person it was a very big deal.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM

Thats no big deal Dick, people with autism are as capable as anyone when it comes to learning new skills, they are not disabled in any way they just have a different mindset to most other people.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 06:23 PM

"This, for me, is what it's all about. Learning music, making music and passing it on. All magic"
I AGREE, ONE OF MY PROUDEST ACHEIVEMENTS IS THAT I TAUGHT GUITAR SUCCESSFULLY TO SOMEONE WITH AUTISM.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 06:21 PM

you think what you like.you re entitled to your opinions. i disagree, Ithink there is a lot wrong with elitism in music, you think there is nothing wrong with music being popular or commercial, that is an opinion, i have a different opinion, most folk music when it bnecomes commercialised moves further from its roots , i dont like that. that is my opinion, so we will agree to disagree


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Feb 17, 2:03
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:45 AM

GS, you have totally misread or misunderstood what I said. I am beginning to think that you may be here for the sake of argument as you seem not to want to hear other points of view. There is nothing wrong with things being elite, there is nothing wrong with music be popular and commercial.
You just seem to be going in circles, at the grass roots level, that is.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:34 AM

The magic has gone? Balls to that. Every month I go to public sessions or singarounds or sessions with mates or concerts and hear wonderful stuff - new tunes that grip me and make me want to go out and find the music on record or on paper or on the web and grab it and play it.

I mentioned in a more recent thread a concert I attended on Friday in Shoreham - three "Celtic" fiddlers and a Breton guitarist. It was a magic evening. Granted, one two of the tunes were a bit old-hat - crowd pleasers, if you like, but there was a substantial selection of great airs. I came away with a book and CD of Breton tunes, written by Christian Lemaitre, the Breton fiddler, and am just working my way through it. A totally new experience for me. I've played the odd Breton tune at a session (an old friend and ex-band member now lives in Brittany and was a devotee of the music) but have never explored its complexities in depth. There'll be hours of pleasure and instruction for me here.

There's always something new and exciting out there if you just get your brain in gear and your ears open.

Just one more point: I do a bit of teaching, some in person and some online (private, personalised videos on my website) and nothing gives me greater pleasure than when someone I've been teaching says, "That was great - I got it!" And the people I give help to are all ages - some in their early twenties, some older than me, i.e. in their mid-70s and older.

This, for me, is what it's all about. Learning music, making music and passing it on. All magic.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:07 AM

Discovered yesterday, at suggestion of the owner of "The CD Shop" in Sevenoaks, Rose Cousins and Eilen Jewell, what a delight they both are. How lucky they are at not needing recognition from the Muscat folk police!!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:04 AM

Just because the phrygian dominant scale has not been used before, why should uk folk music be restricted to its present modes

Fair enough. Come up with some pieces in that mode, and see what the rest of us think of them...

Bet they won't make the charts!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:56 AM

Al puts it best.....the magic has gone.

Your view saddens me, akenaton. All things must pass, and everything evolves.

This summer, there will be many thousands of young people watching, playing and dancing to folk music at festivals and having the time of their lives!

Do not begrudge them that...


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:35 AM

Al puts it best.....the magic has gone.   and I'm not JUST an old fart, love to listen to people like Brendan Power who has shaped traditional music in a GOOD way, he has found a new way of presenting trad without bleaching it or twisting it out of recognition. Everything he plays has a magical content. Archie Fisher is one of the old brigade, but still can give his songs the breath of life
Windward Away can actually bring tears to my old dimming eyes.

The old performances do not fail with time, go back and listen to what we heard in the sixties, with the exception of a few which did become hackneyed the magic is still there in the life and performance.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:35 AM

Al,

All that I was trying to point out was the fact that as we get older, we probably don't feel the wow factor as much. I'm 50 this year, and love hearing new music both live and recorded in many genres. However, it never gives me quite the same buzz as it might have done as a teenager. I think unfortunately, that's just life...

I did get old, but also the acts got worse.

I really don't think that's fair. There's loads of excellent stuff if you bother to look.

1968 guest list for his Bristol folk club on FB

Al Stewart. Ralph Mctell, Clive Palmer, Mike Cooper...some others also legendary!


If I may make an obvious point? The young artists of today have only just started! How the hell are they supposed to be legendary yet?

Dick,

What the fuck are you on about? Since when has the Phrygian dominant scale been any major part of English folk? I don't know if you try and use your Wikipedia copy and paste approach to make yourself look intellegent or not. BTW, it doesn't...

how many hits...use the hijaz scale NO DO they use quarter tones, NO because they know that familiar western music scales will make money, they know that there are a proportion of racists in England who will not buy anything that has a turkish or indian sound

Wow!!!


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:15 AM

DADGAD, a major evolution on the UKFOLK SCENE. Was it the result of Commercialisation, no no non.
Davy Graham visited Morrocco, he did not go there for commercial reasons, he came across a tradtional instrument called the UD.
He noted the tuning and adapted it for guitar.
if Commercialisation encourages the evolution of music, how come there was no one using the ud on top of the ,plops before Davy Graham went to Morrocco, why ?because the promoters of top of the poops did not think it would be commercial.
this is superbhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UYxS9rAIxg


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:06 AM

I sing quarter tones, now and again, GSS
Totally unintentially though. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 08:00 AM

Musically, UK trad music is stifled, by people sticking to certain musicial modes, mathematically there becomes a limit to new tunes being composed, this has nothing to do with commercialisation, but with audiences and paying people have come to equate as a uk/irish, scots welsh trad sound,
use of other modes, and other instruments like sitars which use quarter tones, would help the music to evolve artistically,
again commercialisation,plays very little part in this, mainstream music does not appear[ at this point in time] intersted in turkish or indian music, or the use of the hijaz scale
It is common in Arabic and Egyptian music, in which it is known as Hijaz-Nahawand or Bayati maqam, and used in Hebrew prayers and Klezmer music, where it is known as Ahava Rabbah, Freygish or just the "Jewish scale", and is called Dastgāh-e Homāyoun in Iran
how many hits in the top ten [which is commercial music] use anything but the western major scale, do they use the hijaz scale NO DO they use quarter tones, NO because they play safe they stifle artistic explOration, because they know that turning out and marketing the same old bland unitersting variations on the familiar western music scales will make money, they know that there are a proportion of racists in England who will not buy anything that has a turkish or indian sound, commercialisation in these cases stifles evolution of music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:42 AM

they do that shit for people who make cakes.

Ian Anderson of hotVultures/Froots fame just posted his 1968 guest list for his Bristol folk club on FB

Al Stewart. Ralph Mctell, Clive Palmer, Mike Cooper...some others also legendary!


I did get old, but also the acts got worse.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:32 AM

2Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM - PM
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:18 AM

Oops! I seemed to have opened up a can of worms here.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Awards shouldn't be set up as competative on the night. Instead of having the obnoxtious "..and the winner is!" why can't they just give an award to someone for something well done without all the pseudo-Holywood barff?"
   
because the BBC has lost the plot, it used to have a remit to some extent to educate, now it is about being commercial about viewing numbers.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM

"Your way seems to stifle evolution,"
my way, i have not advocated anything other than I think it is a good thing for the uk folk scene to have more workshops to improve standards at grass roots level how does that stifle evolution?.
I also suggested that these awards be stopped, how does that stifle evolution, music evolves regardless of commercialisation and i have given examples.
musicians wish to explore and break boundaries for artistic reasons, not commercial reasons, again examples have been provided, commercialism by its nature takes music away from its roots,
its quite true I would like to stop that, however I am not in charge.
i dont wish to stifle music evolution, I wish folk music to be given the right sort of financial and musical support and send it in a direction that helps to raise standards, with higher standards more members of the public will treat the music with better respect
.       Classical music is given a lot of financial support and is subsidised to maintain standards, why should folk music be treated differently,
let us look at Ireland, traditional music is heavily subsidised and included in the mainstream media[ without the music being compromised artistically]it is not necessary for the evolvement and encouragement of music for it to be commercialised.
if you use trad music to promote toothpaste, it promotes the music but artistically it lowers its merit, a beautiful song becomes associated with tooth paste, the image is ruined.
there are lots of ways folk music can evolve, the influence of jazz improvisation for example,Commercialisation is not going to do that job music improvisation workshops will do that.
let us look at the jazz world, my relative Nat Peck played with Glenn Miller,Dizzy Gillespie etc, like many jazz musicians he had to   play as a session man for people like Petula Clark, and satisfy his artistic and musical boundaries playing jazz in non commercial bands like francy boland, he talks about how Glenn Miller band improved artistically and musically after Miller died, in this clip.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FxGVtTdxAo


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:18 AM

Oops! I seemed to have opened up a can of worms here.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Awards shouldn't be set up as competative on the night. Instead of having the obnoxtious "..and the winner is!" why can't they just give an award to someone for something well done without all the pseudo-Holywood barff?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:58 AM

i didn't used to come home from the folk club, thinking that's a good working musician. i used to think i have shared in magic

Maybe you've just got older, Al?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:50 AM

i don't think anybody is being accused of being too commercialised.

just perhaps not really inspirational, when more inspirational models are/have been available.

as my old English teacher used to say of various writers....he doesn't really set the mind on fire.
put it another way - Alan Bennet said of Louis MacNeice, ....he never went overboard and made a fool of himself about boys, politics or whatever: so he didn't make much of a splash.

i didn't used to come home from the folk club, thinking that's a good working musician. i used to think i have shared in magic that i wouldn't have seen sat at home watching the val doonican show.

that's what's gone wrong. and you can't put it right following a tradition or arranging university courses for middle class kids who want to take the risk out of joining the circus.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:11 AM

Remembering that by its very nature professional musicians are trying to make a living out of playing music; and remembering that this thread is about the Folk Awards; I am left wondering which of the nominees for either best singer or best band are being accused of being too commercialised? As far as the bands go we have Alasdair Roberts' band The Furrow Collection playing things like Hind Horn or The Demon Lover etc; we have Breabach who are a fairly straightforward modern Scottish trad band; we have The Gloaming who I don't know well but seem to be an Irish band fusing trad with elements of modern jazz; and 9Bach who bring in middle eastern influences and sing in Welsh!! Some people may not like some of the arrangements (and surely we've always had people dictating how people should play things?) but in all fairness none of these bands seem to be chasing the pop pound and who is anyone to say that they do not take their music seriously and are only playing it for commercial reasons?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:13 PM

you can't blame the folk awards for the whole direction the folk world moved in.

agreed, its symptomatic of what went wrong and why a generation of pro performers didn't emerge that nowadays cause us to down telly remote and head off to the folk club to be entertained, in the way we did.

but perhaps the lacklustre reflection reflects a lacklustre reality.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:10 PM

Dick: Music evolves in all sorts of ways. Your way seems to stifle evolution, to try to fix it in the time you think it was "best", the way you have performed it for decades. The Folk Revival was hugely successful in breaking down such antediluvian attitudes and the result was a growth in folk music never seen before.

Other ways promote evolution in a way that is accessible to, dare I say, the younger generation who enjoy folk music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:58 PM

You really shouldn't copy and paste from Wikipedia without attributing it, Dick. Not good form.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:46 PM

my point is that music will evolve without the assistance of commercialisation, and i have provided examples, so putting forward an argument that commercialisation is good because it causes the music to evolve is a false argument.
music has evolved and continues to evolve for other reasons apart from money making.
JAZZ is another genre where styles have evolved for reasons other than commercialisation, the idea that Bird Parker developed be bop to make money is a joke
In the late 1930s Parker began to practice diligently. During this period he mastered improvisation and developed some of the ideas that led to bebop. In an interview with Paul Desmond, he said that he spent three to four years practicing up to 15 hours a day.[7]

Bands led by Count Basie and Bennie Moten certainly influenced Parker. He played with local bands in jazz clubs around Kansas City, Missouri, where he perfected his technique, with the assistance of Buster Smith, whose dynamic transitions to double and triple time influenced Parker's developing style.

In 1937, Parker played at a jam session at the Reno Club in Kansas City. His attempt to improvise failed when he lost track of the chord changes. This prompted Jo Jones, the drummer for Count Basie's Orchestra, to contemptuously throw a cymbal at his feet as a signal to leave the stage. However, rather than discouraging Parker, the incident caused him to vow to practice harder, and turned out to be a seminal moment in the young musician's career when he returned as a new man a year later.Parker was a highly influential jazz soloist and a leading figure in the development of bebop,[2] a form of jazz characterized by fast tempos, virtuosic technique and advanced harmonies. Parker was a blazingly fast virtuoso, and he introduced revolutionary harmonic ideas including rapid passing chords, new variants of altered chords, and chord substitutions. His tone ranged from clean and penetrating to sweet and somber. Parker acquired the nickname "Yardbird" early in his career.[3] This, and the shortened form "Bird", continued to be used for the rest of his life, inspiring the titles of a number of Parker compositions, such as "Yardbird Suite", "Ornithology", "Bird Gets the Worm", and "Bird of Paradise". Parker was an icon for the hipster subculture and later the Beat Generation, personifying the jazz musician as an uncompromising artist and intellectual rather than just an entertainer.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:50 PM

No, music can evolve without it being commercialised or as you "spin" it saleable,and has done for centuries without the help of commercialisation.
Bach is a case in point, Bach did not want to explore equal temperament for commercial reasons, He wished to use modulation which was not possible using the existing temperaments., for artistic reasons
CCE are another case in point, they were formed because some musicians thought the music was being contaminated so they set out to preserve it,
Ironically, through their competetion system they have caused it to evolve in a manner directed by them, they have discouraged regional styles and encouraged through their marking system a CCE style,but their motives were not commercial.
music will evolve, regardless of commercialisation and does not need commercialisation to help it evolve, that does not mean that commercialisation does not change it, what it means is that commercialisation is not the only thing that causes change in the music.
your argument is a weak one because the way you have expressed yourself suggests that music will only evolve through commercialisation, this is complete poppycock balderdash and nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:03 PM

Music can shine, be beautiful, be rooted in tradition and still be saleable. Being saleable or popular is not a sin. The arts have always been part of the fabric of society. they should not be hermetically sealed in some romanticised past. If that happens, they die.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 01:24 PM

I don't think you have any understanding at all about the ethos of traditional music Sir.

It is not about contorting the music into a saleable item, but what one puts into it without radically changing the music.....the emotional content, the element of audience participation, cherishing the music, polishing it till it shines.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 01:15 PM

What planet do you live on? People have changed since the sixties? Why does that surprise you, given that was over 50 years ago? Festivals are more common and more attended than folk clubs.
Face it, you are the past - and there is much to celebrate about the past not least that is where folk comes from - but times and attitudes change. Like it or not you cannot change it.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM

I agree GSS, but I'm afraid the fault lies in society. People have changed dramatically since the sixties......There is definitely something lacking in the youth. Proper work and the music that it created, no longer exists, the communities broken up to be replaced by mobile phones and "social media", the cult of celebrity rules....me..me... mee!
We are losing something very precious, but perhaps a new way of life is just around the corner, necessity may cause us to develop a bit of interdependence again, then we could try the Irish model of small competitions for young people to encourage real study of the tradition.....and most important a return to festivals and street music.....the jewel in the crown of traditional folk music.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 12:28 PM

OK Dick, so how do you suggest the UK folk scene improves standards at grass roots level?


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:55 AM

You have been very clear in stating your concerns Good Soldier. Some agree, some don't..lots of room for both points of view. But you seem to want to go on saying the same thing over and over, we get it, really we do but it appears that some of us disagree, let it go at that, no need to keep repeating yourself.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:15 AM

I am concerned SOLELY about the direction the UK FOLK SCENE has gone over the last 50 years.
I think number one priority is improving standards at grass roots level.
Over the last 40 years, i have seen the uk folk scene change and go in a direction musically which I believe was a mistake.
I am not prepared to remain silent any more,
If we can discuss the topic and not make insinuations about the motives of posters this could be a discussion which HOPEFULLY makes people think about the priorities of the UKfolk scene


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM

I can think of a whole generation of young singers that should have been nurtured by the folk scene, but weren't.

And the folk establishment is SO bloody smarmy, middle class and offensive.. at major festivals you see them smarming over some young puppy, whose parent played the third yoyo on the 60's folkscene. Totally forgiving their lack of talent, stage presence, instrumental ability, preparedness to perform....and generally pissing away the creative opportunity that should have gone to someone far more dedicated.

If you haven't noticed this. You're blind.

Its the misfortune of the BBC Folk Awards that it represents this unfortunate aspect of the folkscene in many peoples minds.

You can't bring it to court for any of the above....but if you want a brief explanation of why people resent it, perhaps unfairly...there you have it.

Personally I think...thats how things are. that's how it always has been. live with it. a gang of would be toffs. leave 'em to it. theres plenty of the rest of the world for us to live in.


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Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Morris-ey. The thought had just crossed my mind!


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