Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 10:20 PM

Hi,

TY Steve.

I'm convinced that Jersey (Jersey City) has nothing to do with the state "New Jersey" although it's not necessarily the Isle of Jersey but that makes more sense. I've been swapped with teaching, playing, my crazy girlfriend, fishing, writing other articles, rental properties and such.

I'm still plugging away at the US versions (hundreds) and I'll start posting a few. The first is from Vermont. Two stanzas are clearly from the UK (not usually in Butcher Boy): the last two lines of stanza 1 is from Brisk Young Sailor and the last stanza is I Wish I Wish modified. It seems likely that "Butcher Boy" at least originated in the UK but disappeared and only a half dozen UK versions have surfaced. Once it made it to the US/Canada it became popular. That's the direction I'm heading- enough versions in the UK have the suicide that are not The Cruel Father or Rambling Boy to make this presumption. I'm still at it- nothing certain yet.

Butcher Boy- from The Flanders Collection online as sung by Amos Eaton at S. Royalton (Vermont) on August, 12, 1945. Complete transcription R. Matteson 2017.

In New York Jersey there did dwell
A butcher boy and I knew him well
He courted me with his own free will
Where e'er he goes I love him still.

There was a girl in that same town,
My true love goes and he sits him down
He takes her too upon his knee
And he tells to her what he once told me.

Oh mother oh mother you do not know,
What pain and grief and sorrow, woe,
She took a chair and she set her down,
With pen and ink to write it down.

With every word she said, "Oh dear,"
With every line she dropped a tear,
She went upstairs to make her bed
And nothing to her mother said.

Her tender father came home at noon,
Inquired for his daughter soon,
He went upstairs and he burst the door
And he found her hanging to the floor.

He took his knife and he took her down
And in her bosom these words he found:
You'll dig my grave both wide and deep,
Lay a marble stone at my head and feet,
And on my bosom a turtle dove,
To show to the world that I died of love.

I wish I wish but I wish in vain,
I wish she were alive again,
But alive again she ne'er will be,
Till an orange grows on an apple tree.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 01:01 PM

I think we already posed the possibility that a Scottish version of the family gave rise to Butcher Boy. If that is plausible then it might be worth identifying which Scottish versions might have been involved. I still think at least some of the English versions collected since WWII derive from the American.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 17 - 07:08 PM

Hi,

Steve, one of the important Scottish versions is sung by Sam Davidson 1863–1951 of Auchedly, Tarves Aberdeen; a farmer of North Seat Farm and well known singer who learned ballads from his farm hands. This dates 1907 when Greig collected it but is probably from the late 1800s.

1. A brisk young sailor came courting me,
He stole frae me my liberty;
He stole it with my ain free goodwill,
And I canna deny but I love him still.

2. Such a foolish young girl was I
To lay my love on a sailor boy;
A sailor boy altho' that he be,
He aye pro'ved true when he courted me.

3. As lang as my apron was to my toe
He followed me thro' frost and snow;
But now my apron's to my knee
He cares nae mair for my company.

4. There's an alehouse in yonder town
My love gangs and he sets himself down,
He takes another fair maid on his knee,
And he tells her what he has done to me?

5. There's a blackbird on yonder tree,
Some says it's blind and canna see,
I wish it had been the case with me,
When first I fell in his company.

6. I wish, I wish but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be
Till an apple grows on an orange tree.

6. I wish my baby it was born,
And set upon its nurse's knee,
And I myself were dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

7. I saw her love come in last night[1]
To search for his own heart's delight,
He ran upstairs, the doors he broke,
He found his love hanging on the rope.

8. He's ta'en his knife and he's cut her down,
And in her breast this note it was found:
"I promised to be this young man's wife,
And for his sake hae ta'en my life."

9. "You'll go dig my grave both long, wide and deep,
Put a marble stone at my head and my feet,
And in the midst a turtle-dove,
To let all the world know that I died in love."

1. dialogue abruptly shifts to 3rd person

What's clear here is the suicide is part of the UK tradition, and there are other versions. "Butcher Boy" is not used in the Scottish versions with the suicide.

* * * *

I'm looking at the New England versions now and they are very similar to many of the UK versions. Davidson's version (posted above) has the "Brisk Young Sailor" stanza not found in the US as such. The Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection has several versions that sound like UK versions. This corresponds fairly closely to I Wish, I Wish.

Butcher Boy - voice performance by Mrs. John Fairbanks at N. Springfield, Vermont. Dated 10-05-1939.

I Wish I wish I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til an orange grows on an apple tree.

When I wore my dresses low
He followed me through frost and snow,
Now I wear them to my chin,
He'll pass the door, and won't stop in.

Here's another example (first four stanzas given) from Flanders with the Davidson's "Blackbird" stanza. The informant is Irish:

Butcher Boy - voice performance by William Webster at Wakefield (Rhode Island). Classification #: LAP24. Dated 11-13-1952.

In Jersey City where I dwelled,
A butcher boy I loved so well,
He courted me my heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

There is a house right in this town,
Where my love goes she sits him down,
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he once tells to me.

Oh grief, oh grief I will tell you why,
Because she has more gold than I
Her gold will melt and silver fly,
She'll see the day she'll be as poor as I.

There is a bird, right in this tree,
Some say she's blind and she cannot see she
I wish to the Lord it's the same with me,
Before I fell into his company.

These are transcriptions I've made that are unavailable online and are not listed in Roud index. The titles were given by Flanders and may not be local titles.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 17 - 03:16 AM

The classification is compounded by the fact that there were very likely many hybrids, some that have occurred relatively recently (early 20th century). Some of this is likely due to sharing tunes. The long Scots version here shows some evidence of being a hybrid of TBYS and TRB.

My shorthand system of study/comparison involves designating each stanza in the group a letter and then listing them side by side. With most ballads this throws up interesting patterns, but the laments are much more difficult and patterns are few and far between. Much closer analysis is needed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 11:48 AM

Hi,

Here's an archaic version from Storytellers: Folktales & Legends from the South edited by John A. Burrison; 1991. This was sung by Lem Griffis of Fargo in south Georgia, born about 1896 and died in 1968. He was Georgia's best-known traditional storyteller. By his recollection it is dated back to the early 1800s:

Lem Griffis: Well, I know another one, but I declare. My great-grandparents brought it from across the ocean, when they came over hyer. An' I think I still remember that song, all of it. But I know, my grandmother useta sing it years an' years ago.

Surprisingly, Lem's grandfather Samuel B Griffis, Jr was born way back in 1794 in Montgomery County, Georgia. So it dates back to the early 1800s from his grandmother alone. His great-great-grandfather John Griffis served in the Revolutionary War with the "Swamp Fox" Francis Marion in the backwaters of South Carolina (see: Mel Gibson's portrayal of Marion) and was killed in action about 1781 by Cornwallis' soldiers-- so Lem's recollection that his great-grandparents brought it "from across the ocean" wasn't accurate. John Griffis' father came to South Carolina about 1735.

Butcher Boy- sung by Lem Griffis of Fargo, Georgia (on the edge of the Okefenokee Swamp) collected about 1966 and dates back to the early 1800s from his grandmother.

In London City where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved so well;
He's courted me my heart away
An' along with me he will not stay.

He goes downtown an' he sets 'isself down,
He takes a stranger upon his knee.
He tells to them things he won't tell me,
An' don't you know that it's grief to see.

He courts them shy, I can tell you why,
Because they have more gold than I.
But gold will melt and silver will fly,
But conscious love can never die.

It was late one night when her father came home,
Inquiring where his daughter had gone
She's gone away her life to destroy;
She's hung herself for the butcher boy.

He ran upstairs and the door he broke,
And found her hanging on a rope
He taken his knife and he cut her down,
And in her bosom this note was found:

I love you Johnny, I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell.
I love my father an' mother too,
But I don't love them like I do you.

I wish an' I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was made [a maid?] over again.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 17 - 11:40 PM

Hi,

The mystery of "There is a Tavern in the Town," begins with an African-American Creole song called "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" [hereafter "Radoo"]. In a letter to Rosa Campbell Praed(1851-1935) dated July 1885, Justin McCarthy(1830-1912) refers to Bessie O'Connor who: created a sensation at Mrs. Jeune's the other night. . .I close with some words of the refrain of a song I used to hear long ago in the Southern States of America sung by negroes and of which I am reminded by one of Mrs. O'Connor's songs--"And May the World go well with you!"

Irish writer and Nationalist Justin McCarthy must have heard "Radoo" during a lecturing tour in the United States, c. 1869 and it was also known by American Bessie O'Connor, who independently wrote the music. The words and music appeared in The Right Honourable (1886) written by both Justin McCarthy and Rosa Campbell Praed.

In an article the next year that appeared in the Pall Mall Budget: Being a Weekly Collection of Articles, Volume 35, 1887-- it states, "We have received from Messrs. Francis Brothers and Day [London publisher] a copy of a well known old negro song called "Radoo; or, May this world go well with you." The words are said to be from a Creole song, and the music is arranged by Bessie O'Connor, with accompaniments for the piano and banjo. As Mr. Justin McCarthy says of it," Nothing could be more sweet, simple, and pathetic," and any one who sings to the accompaniment of his or her banjo, or who desires a characteristic and very pleasing simple negro song, cannot do better than procure Mrs. T. P. O'Connor's.

"Radoo" was also published in London (see in Bodleian collection) in Marsh's collection of songs about 1883.

It is clear by this information that "Radoo" predates William H. Hills, c.1883 "There is a Tavern in the Town" by many years and was used by Hills to make his arrangement.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:13 PM

Do any of the pre-Hills versions contain stanzas from the 'Died for Love' family? How many pre-Hills versions have we got access to, if any? And where does all this leave the several contemporary assertions that the song derives from a Cornish folksong, i.e., a version of 'Died for Love'. Is it likely that Hills married the 2 songs together to form 'There is a Tavern'? Does the word 'radoo' derive from 'adieu' as we previously thought, or is the 'adieu' a rationalisation of a nonsense word? When I get your opinions on this I will check all of the early versions I have.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:17 AM

Hi,

Another song incorporated into the 2nd part of Chorus of William Hills "There is a Tavern in the Town" is "Fare Thee Well" which was written c.1835 by Robert Gilfillan, who was born in Dunfermline, Fifeshire, on the 7th of July, 1798, and was the second of three sons. It begins:

Fare thee well for I must leave thee,
But O! let not our parting grieve thee;
Happier days may yet be mine,
At least I wish them thine- believe me!

While the first part of the Chorus of Tavern is the first stanza of Radoo:

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radoo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

The "Adieu/Radoo" stanza itself also appears in a different setting in tradition and was collected by John Stone in Virginia in 1916. This variant includes the floating stanzas of Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts). It was published in Traditional Ballads of Virginia as an appendix of Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal." Here's what Davis says in TBva:

"In other variants of the same combination song (see below)- this "Adieu" stanza appears after the "shoe my foot" stanzas or - and more generally- as a chorus." It seem unlikely that "Tavern" had any influence on the text which appears:

[Adieu] collected by Mr. John Stone. Sung by Mrs. Nathaniel Stone, of Culpeper, Va. Culpeper County Nov. 15, 1916. With music.

1. "Adieu, kind friend, adieu, adieu,
I cannot linger long with you;
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land.
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:10 AM

Hi Steve,

I assume the only documented pre-Hills version would be "Radoo" by Bessie O'Connor that was heard independently by Justin McCarthy in the US about 1869 and according to them it is a Southern US "plantation Song" of African-American "Creole" origin.

Two of the three stanzas are commonly found in the Butcher Boy:

Shall I be bound, shall I be free, free, free,
And many is de girl dat don't love me, me, me,
Or shall I act a foolish part,
And die for de girl dat broke my heart, heart, heart.

Give me a chair and I'll sit down, down, down,
Give me a pen, I'll write it down, down, down,
And every word that I shall write,
A tear will trickle from my eye, eye, eye.

In the Butcher Boy the "Shall I Be Bound" stanza is common the last two line are changed. The "Give Me A Chair" stanza is the writing of the suicide note.

There are several traditional versions with the "Adieu" stanza that probably pre-date Hills and are independent of "There's a Tavern." In the Davis version of Adieu collected in Virginia it has one stanza:

2 "Must I go bond and you go free?
Must I go bond and you go free?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?"

Other traditional stanzas include: 'Blue-eyed Boy.' Secured in 1909 by Miss Hamilton from Julia Rickman of the West Plains High School.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a fellow when he don't love me ?
Or must I act the childish part
And love a fellow when he broke my heart?

Adieu, adieu, kind friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang myself on a green willow tree
Unless he consents to marry me.

and:

"Adieu." Communicated to Miss Hamilton in 1911 by Shirley Hunt of the
Kirksville Teachers College. Note the 'eavesdropping' introductory stanza, a favorite opening for the pastourelle type of street ballad.

As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

Chorus: Adieu, adieu, my friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang my harp upon the willow
And bid this lonesome world adieu.

Go bring me back that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
Go bring me back the one I love
And happy I shall always be.

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one that don't love me?
Or must I act a childish part
And stay with one that broke my heart?

Sometimes you think you have a friend
And one you always can depend;
But when you think that you have got,
When tried will prove that you will not.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM

Hi,

As in the UK several versions Butcher Boy/Died for Love are hybrid with "Constant Lady" a 1686 broadside. Here's one from LOC recording AFS 00871 B01 (AFS Number) sung by Mrs. Emma Dusenbury 1899-1990 and Laurence Powell. Recorded by John Lomax. Published in Midwest Folklore - Volume 9 - Page 23; 1959.

The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire (Roxburghe Ballads I, 260-2 and VIII 635-6)- also titled "Oxfordshire Tragedy" by Chappell, c. 1686. "Constant Lady is also the antecedent of "Love Has Brought Me To Despair." Dusenberry's version does not have stanza 4-- the "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" stanza. Instead it is a hybrid of Butcher Boy and Constant Lady with text resembling Constant lady beginning in stanza 12:

12. The Lady round the meadow run,
"And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
Until she got her apron full.

Through the Meadow She Ran- Sung by Mrs. Emma Dusenbury (1899-1990) of Mena, AR and Laurence Powell in August, 1936.

In yonders grove I made my way,
Some handsome country to survey,
I heared a damsel sigh and say,
The man I love is far away.

"There is a house in yonders town,
My love he goes and there he set down.
He takes another girl all on his knee,
O, isn't he unkind to me.

"He courts her and I know why;
Because she has more gold than I.
Gold will melt and silver will fly,
But constant love will never die.

Through the meadow she ran,
A-pickin' every flower that sprung
She picked; she pulled of ev'ry hue
She picked; she pulled red, white and blue.

"Down on the flowers I make my bed;
The heavens above my coverlid.
I wish to God my task was done
And set beneath the rising sun.

Go dig my grave on yonders hill;
Place a marble stone at my head and feet
And on my breast a turtle dove
To show the world I died of love.

"And at my feet a lollar lea[1],
To show the world he don't love me.
And at my feet a lollar lea,
To show the world he don't love me.

1. laurel leaf

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:12 PM

Wow! Curiouser and curiouser!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:09 PM

Hi,

Be out of town for a few days. Here's another version with a "Constant Lady stanza:

[From Max Hunter Collection; Cat. #1473 (MFH #37)

This is a rare US version with a stanza from the c. 1686 white-letter broadside titled "The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire." Published by Broadwood as:

There is a flower, I've heard them say,
Would ease my heart both night and day;
I would, to God, that flower I could find,
That could ease my heart and my troubling mind!]


Butcher Boy- As sung by Bill Ping, Santa Rosa, California on September 20, 1972.

VERSE 1
There is a flower I heard say,
It's called heart ease, both night an' day
And if that flower I could find
Would ease my heart an' please my mind.

VERSE 2
In Jersey City where I did dwell
Lived a butcher boy that I loved quite well
He courted me, my heart away
And then with me, he would not stay

VERSE 3
There is a tavern in this town
Where he goes in an' sits him down
He'll take a strange girl on his knee
An' tell to her, what he once told me.

VERSE 4
O grief, O grief, I'll tell you why
Because she has more gold than I
The gold will melt, the silver'll fly
In time of need she's as poor as I

VERSE 5
She went upstairs to make her bed
Not one word to her Mother said
Her Mother said, your acting queer
What's troubling you, my daughter dear?

VERSE 6
O, Mother dear, you need to know
My fate an' sorrow, grief an' woe
But give me a chair an' set me down
With pen and ink to write more down.

VERSE 7
An' when her Father, first came home
Where is my daughter, where's she gone
He went upstairs an' the door he broke
An' he found her hanging by a rope

VERSE 8
He took his knife an' he cut her down
An' in her bosom, these lines he found
O, what a foolish girl am I
To hang myself for a butcher boy

VERSE 9
Go dig my grave, both wide an' deep
Place a marble slab, at my head an' feet
An' o'er my gave place a turtle dove
To show this world that I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:23 PM

Hi,

This version is from: Korson, Pennsylvania Songs & Legends pp.48-49. One of several rare versions that include text (two stanzas) from The Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire, a broadside of 1686. Compare to Dusenbury's version above.

I Wish in Vain- Sung by F.P. Provance of Fayette County, Pennsylvania in 1943. Collected by Samuel P. Bayard, with music.

1. I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish't I was a maiden again,
A maid I ain't nor I never will be,
Through all this world and eternity.

2. There is a tav'ren in yon town;
He rides up and he sits himself down,
He takes the strange girl on his knee,
Oh, don't you think it's a grief to me?

3. A grief, a grief, I'll tell you why:
Because she has more gold than I.
But gold may sink, and silver may fly,
But constant love will never die.

4. I would to God my babe was born,
Sat smiling in his papa's arms,
And I was dead and in my grave,
And green grass growing over me.

5. Through the meadow this fair maid ran,
Gathering flowers as they sprang.
She plucked and pulled of every kind
Until she got her apron full.

6. Then these garden flowers was her bed,
The heavens was her coverlid;
And there she lies no more to say,
Till wakened at the Judgment Day.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 10:13 PM

Hi,

Here's a US example from: Ballads and Songs from Utah; Hubbard, 1961. His notes follow. This was collected from the author's mother the year before she died. Since she was born in 1861 it surely dates well before 1800.

This seems to be from an Irish immigrant. This is typical of UK standard versions of the early 1900s and since this version has no suicide and the apron verses-- it shows the similarity of many US versions which seem to have been brought over untouched in the early 1800s. The important used of "butcher boy" should be noted.

THE BUTCHER BOY

For a discussion of the history of this ballad widely known in England and America, its popularity and the variations in the story, see the headnote in Belden, pp.201- 207.

Butcher Boy- sung by Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Jan. 4, 1947.

In Dublin Town, where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved him well.
He courted me full many a day;
He stole from me, my heart away.

And when I wore my aprons low
He courted me through rain and snow,
But now I wear them to my chin
He passes by and never calls in.

There is a house all in this town
Where my true lover sets him down,
And takes another girl on his knee.
And don't you think it's grief to me?

A grief to me and I'll tell you why,
Poor girl has got more grief than I;
But her gold will melt and her beauty fly,
And in time she'll be no more than I.

I wish to God my babe was born
And prattling on his father's knee,
And I, poor soul, was dead and gone,
And the green grass growing over me.

Go dig my grave both wide and deep,
And place two round shots at my feet,
And on my breast put a turtle dove,
That the world may know I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

Hi,

This thread is running long and I'm going to start one last thread for this study which will be:

Origins: Died for Love sources: Part IV

Part IV will wrap it probably up. I'm finishing up the North American versions of Died for Love/Butcher and will start presenting some conclusions. I'm still working on various Appendices as well.

Thanks Steve Gardham for sticking with theses threads and providing comments and suggestions. Thanks also to those who have provided versions and comments.

Please make posts to the new thread as Joe will close this one soon,

TY

Richie