Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

Hi,

This thread is running long and I'm going to start one last thread for this study which will be:

Origins: Died for Love sources: Part IV

Part IV will wrap it probably up. I'm finishing up the North American versions of Died for Love/Butcher and will start presenting some conclusions. I'm still working on various Appendices as well.

Thanks Steve Gardham for sticking with theses threads and providing comments and suggestions. Thanks also to those who have provided versions and comments.

Please make posts to the new thread as Joe will close this one soon,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 10:13 PM

Hi,

Here's a US example from: Ballads and Songs from Utah; Hubbard, 1961. His notes follow. This was collected from the author's mother the year before she died. Since she was born in 1861 it surely dates well before 1800.

This seems to be from an Irish immigrant. This is typical of UK standard versions of the early 1900s and since this version has no suicide and the apron verses-- it shows the similarity of many US versions which seem to have been brought over untouched in the early 1800s. The important used of "butcher boy" should be noted.

THE BUTCHER BOY

For a discussion of the history of this ballad widely known in England and America, its popularity and the variations in the story, see the headnote in Belden, pp.201- 207.

Butcher Boy- sung by Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Jan. 4, 1947.

In Dublin Town, where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved him well.
He courted me full many a day;
He stole from me, my heart away.

And when I wore my aprons low
He courted me through rain and snow,
But now I wear them to my chin
He passes by and never calls in.

There is a house all in this town
Where my true lover sets him down,
And takes another girl on his knee.
And don't you think it's grief to me?

A grief to me and I'll tell you why,
Poor girl has got more grief than I;
But her gold will melt and her beauty fly,
And in time she'll be no more than I.

I wish to God my babe was born
And prattling on his father's knee,
And I, poor soul, was dead and gone,
And the green grass growing over me.

Go dig my grave both wide and deep,
And place two round shots at my feet,
And on my breast put a turtle dove,
That the world may know I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:23 PM

Hi,

This version is from: Korson, Pennsylvania Songs & Legends pp.48-49. One of several rare versions that include text (two stanzas) from The Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire, a broadside of 1686. Compare to Dusenbury's version above.

I Wish in Vain- Sung by F.P. Provance of Fayette County, Pennsylvania in 1943. Collected by Samuel P. Bayard, with music.

1. I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish't I was a maiden again,
A maid I ain't nor I never will be,
Through all this world and eternity.

2. There is a tav'ren in yon town;
He rides up and he sits himself down,
He takes the strange girl on his knee,
Oh, don't you think it's a grief to me?

3. A grief, a grief, I'll tell you why:
Because she has more gold than I.
But gold may sink, and silver may fly,
But constant love will never die.

4. I would to God my babe was born,
Sat smiling in his papa's arms,
And I was dead and in my grave,
And green grass growing over me.

5. Through the meadow this fair maid ran,
Gathering flowers as they sprang.
She plucked and pulled of every kind
Until she got her apron full.

6. Then these garden flowers was her bed,
The heavens was her coverlid;
And there she lies no more to say,
Till wakened at the Judgment Day.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:09 PM

Hi,

Be out of town for a few days. Here's another version with a "Constant Lady stanza:

[From Max Hunter Collection; Cat. #1473 (MFH #37)

This is a rare US version with a stanza from the c. 1686 white-letter broadside titled "The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire." Published by Broadwood as:

There is a flower, I've heard them say,
Would ease my heart both night and day;
I would, to God, that flower I could find,
That could ease my heart and my troubling mind!]


Butcher Boy- As sung by Bill Ping, Santa Rosa, California on September 20, 1972.

VERSE 1
There is a flower I heard say,
It's called heart ease, both night an' day
And if that flower I could find
Would ease my heart an' please my mind.

VERSE 2
In Jersey City where I did dwell
Lived a butcher boy that I loved quite well
He courted me, my heart away
And then with me, he would not stay

VERSE 3
There is a tavern in this town
Where he goes in an' sits him down
He'll take a strange girl on his knee
An' tell to her, what he once told me.

VERSE 4
O grief, O grief, I'll tell you why
Because she has more gold than I
The gold will melt, the silver'll fly
In time of need she's as poor as I

VERSE 5
She went upstairs to make her bed
Not one word to her Mother said
Her Mother said, your acting queer
What's troubling you, my daughter dear?

VERSE 6
O, Mother dear, you need to know
My fate an' sorrow, grief an' woe
But give me a chair an' set me down
With pen and ink to write more down.

VERSE 7
An' when her Father, first came home
Where is my daughter, where's she gone
He went upstairs an' the door he broke
An' he found her hanging by a rope

VERSE 8
He took his knife an' he cut her down
An' in her bosom, these lines he found
O, what a foolish girl am I
To hang myself for a butcher boy

VERSE 9
Go dig my grave, both wide an' deep
Place a marble slab, at my head an' feet
An' o'er my gave place a turtle dove
To show this world that I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:12 PM

Wow! Curiouser and curiouser!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM

Hi,

As in the UK several versions Butcher Boy/Died for Love are hybrid with "Constant Lady" a 1686 broadside. Here's one from LOC recording AFS 00871 B01 (AFS Number) sung by Mrs. Emma Dusenbury 1899-1990 and Laurence Powell. Recorded by John Lomax. Published in Midwest Folklore - Volume 9 - Page 23; 1959.

The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire (Roxburghe Ballads I, 260-2 and VIII 635-6)- also titled "Oxfordshire Tragedy" by Chappell, c. 1686. "Constant Lady is also the antecedent of "Love Has Brought Me To Despair." Dusenberry's version does not have stanza 4-- the "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" stanza. Instead it is a hybrid of Butcher Boy and Constant Lady with text resembling Constant lady beginning in stanza 12:

12. The Lady round the meadow run,
"And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
Until she got her apron full.

Through the Meadow She Ran- Sung by Mrs. Emma Dusenbury (1899-1990) of Mena, AR and Laurence Powell in August, 1936.

In yonders grove I made my way,
Some handsome country to survey,
I heared a damsel sigh and say,
The man I love is far away.

"There is a house in yonders town,
My love he goes and there he set down.
He takes another girl all on his knee,
O, isn't he unkind to me.

"He courts her and I know why;
Because she has more gold than I.
Gold will melt and silver will fly,
But constant love will never die.

Through the meadow she ran,
A-pickin' every flower that sprung
She picked; she pulled of ev'ry hue
She picked; she pulled red, white and blue.

"Down on the flowers I make my bed;
The heavens above my coverlid.
I wish to God my task was done
And set beneath the rising sun.

Go dig my grave on yonders hill;
Place a marble stone at my head and feet
And on my breast a turtle dove
To show the world I died of love.

"And at my feet a lollar lea[1],
To show the world he don't love me.
And at my feet a lollar lea,
To show the world he don't love me.

1. laurel leaf

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:10 AM

Hi Steve,

I assume the only documented pre-Hills version would be "Radoo" by Bessie O'Connor that was heard independently by Justin McCarthy in the US about 1869 and according to them it is a Southern US "plantation Song" of African-American "Creole" origin.

Two of the three stanzas are commonly found in the Butcher Boy:

Shall I be bound, shall I be free, free, free,
And many is de girl dat don't love me, me, me,
Or shall I act a foolish part,
And die for de girl dat broke my heart, heart, heart.

Give me a chair and I'll sit down, down, down,
Give me a pen, I'll write it down, down, down,
And every word that I shall write,
A tear will trickle from my eye, eye, eye.

In the Butcher Boy the "Shall I Be Bound" stanza is common the last two line are changed. The "Give Me A Chair" stanza is the writing of the suicide note.

There are several traditional versions with the "Adieu" stanza that probably pre-date Hills and are independent of "There's a Tavern." In the Davis version of Adieu collected in Virginia it has one stanza:

2 "Must I go bond and you go free?
Must I go bond and you go free?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?"

Other traditional stanzas include: 'Blue-eyed Boy.' Secured in 1909 by Miss Hamilton from Julia Rickman of the West Plains High School.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a fellow when he don't love me ?
Or must I act the childish part
And love a fellow when he broke my heart?

Adieu, adieu, kind friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang myself on a green willow tree
Unless he consents to marry me.

and:

"Adieu." Communicated to Miss Hamilton in 1911 by Shirley Hunt of the
Kirksville Teachers College. Note the 'eavesdropping' introductory stanza, a favorite opening for the pastourelle type of street ballad.

As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

Chorus: Adieu, adieu, my friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang my harp upon the willow
And bid this lonesome world adieu.

Go bring me back that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
Go bring me back the one I love
And happy I shall always be.

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one that don't love me?
Or must I act a childish part
And stay with one that broke my heart?

Sometimes you think you have a friend
And one you always can depend;
But when you think that you have got,
When tried will prove that you will not.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:17 AM

Hi,

Another song incorporated into the 2nd part of Chorus of William Hills "There is a Tavern in the Town" is "Fare Thee Well" which was written c.1835 by Robert Gilfillan, who was born in Dunfermline, Fifeshire, on the 7th of July, 1798, and was the second of three sons. It begins:

Fare thee well for I must leave thee,
But O! let not our parting grieve thee;
Happier days may yet be mine,
At least I wish them thine- believe me!

While the first part of the Chorus of Tavern is the first stanza of Radoo:

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radoo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

The "Adieu/Radoo" stanza itself also appears in a different setting in tradition and was collected by John Stone in Virginia in 1916. This variant includes the floating stanzas of Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts). It was published in Traditional Ballads of Virginia as an appendix of Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal." Here's what Davis says in TBva:

"In other variants of the same combination song (see below)- this "Adieu" stanza appears after the "shoe my foot" stanzas or - and more generally- as a chorus." It seem unlikely that "Tavern" had any influence on the text which appears:

[Adieu] collected by Mr. John Stone. Sung by Mrs. Nathaniel Stone, of Culpeper, Va. Culpeper County Nov. 15, 1916. With music.

1. "Adieu, kind friend, adieu, adieu,
I cannot linger long with you;
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land.
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:13 PM

Do any of the pre-Hills versions contain stanzas from the 'Died for Love' family? How many pre-Hills versions have we got access to, if any? And where does all this leave the several contemporary assertions that the song derives from a Cornish folksong, i.e., a version of 'Died for Love'. Is it likely that Hills married the 2 songs together to form 'There is a Tavern'? Does the word 'radoo' derive from 'adieu' as we previously thought, or is the 'adieu' a rationalisation of a nonsense word? When I get your opinions on this I will check all of the early versions I have.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 17 - 11:40 PM

Hi,

The mystery of "There is a Tavern in the Town," begins with an African-American Creole song called "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" [hereafter "Radoo"]. In a letter to Rosa Campbell Praed(1851-1935) dated July 1885, Justin McCarthy(1830-1912) refers to Bessie O'Connor who: created a sensation at Mrs. Jeune's the other night. . .I close with some words of the refrain of a song I used to hear long ago in the Southern States of America sung by negroes and of which I am reminded by one of Mrs. O'Connor's songs--"And May the World go well with you!"

Irish writer and Nationalist Justin McCarthy must have heard "Radoo" during a lecturing tour in the United States, c. 1869 and it was also known by American Bessie O'Connor, who independently wrote the music. The words and music appeared in The Right Honourable (1886) written by both Justin McCarthy and Rosa Campbell Praed.

In an article the next year that appeared in the Pall Mall Budget: Being a Weekly Collection of Articles, Volume 35, 1887-- it states, "We have received from Messrs. Francis Brothers and Day [London publisher] a copy of a well known old negro song called "Radoo; or, May this world go well with you." The words are said to be from a Creole song, and the music is arranged by Bessie O'Connor, with accompaniments for the piano and banjo. As Mr. Justin McCarthy says of it," Nothing could be more sweet, simple, and pathetic," and any one who sings to the accompaniment of his or her banjo, or who desires a characteristic and very pleasing simple negro song, cannot do better than procure Mrs. T. P. O'Connor's.

"Radoo" was also published in London (see in Bodleian collection) in Marsh's collection of songs about 1883.

It is clear by this information that "Radoo" predates William H. Hills, c.1883 "There is a Tavern in the Town" by many years and was used by Hills to make his arrangement.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 11:48 AM

Hi,

Here's an archaic version from Storytellers: Folktales & Legends from the South edited by John A. Burrison; 1991. This was sung by Lem Griffis of Fargo in south Georgia, born about 1896 and died in 1968. He was Georgia's best-known traditional storyteller. By his recollection it is dated back to the early 1800s:

Lem Griffis: Well, I know another one, but I declare. My great-grandparents brought it from across the ocean, when they came over hyer. An' I think I still remember that song, all of it. But I know, my grandmother useta sing it years an' years ago.

Surprisingly, Lem's grandfather Samuel B Griffis, Jr was born way back in 1794 in Montgomery County, Georgia. So it dates back to the early 1800s from his grandmother alone. His great-great-grandfather John Griffis served in the Revolutionary War with the "Swamp Fox" Francis Marion in the backwaters of South Carolina (see: Mel Gibson's portrayal of Marion) and was killed in action about 1781 by Cornwallis' soldiers-- so Lem's recollection that his great-grandparents brought it "from across the ocean" wasn't accurate. John Griffis' father came to South Carolina about 1735.

Butcher Boy- sung by Lem Griffis of Fargo, Georgia (on the edge of the Okefenokee Swamp) collected about 1966 and dates back to the early 1800s from his grandmother.

In London City where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved so well;
He's courted me my heart away
An' along with me he will not stay.

He goes downtown an' he sets 'isself down,
He takes a stranger upon his knee.
He tells to them things he won't tell me,
An' don't you know that it's grief to see.

He courts them shy, I can tell you why,
Because they have more gold than I.
But gold will melt and silver will fly,
But conscious love can never die.

It was late one night when her father came home,
Inquiring where his daughter had gone
She's gone away her life to destroy;
She's hung herself for the butcher boy.

He ran upstairs and the door he broke,
And found her hanging on a rope
He taken his knife and he cut her down,
And in her bosom this note was found:

I love you Johnny, I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell.
I love my father an' mother too,
But I don't love them like I do you.

I wish an' I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was made [a maid?] over again.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 17 - 03:16 AM

The classification is compounded by the fact that there were very likely many hybrids, some that have occurred relatively recently (early 20th century). Some of this is likely due to sharing tunes. The long Scots version here shows some evidence of being a hybrid of TBYS and TRB.

My shorthand system of study/comparison involves designating each stanza in the group a letter and then listing them side by side. With most ballads this throws up interesting patterns, but the laments are much more difficult and patterns are few and far between. Much closer analysis is needed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 17 - 07:08 PM

Hi,

Steve, one of the important Scottish versions is sung by Sam Davidson 1863–1951 of Auchedly, Tarves Aberdeen; a farmer of North Seat Farm and well known singer who learned ballads from his farm hands. This dates 1907 when Greig collected it but is probably from the late 1800s.

1. A brisk young sailor came courting me,
He stole frae me my liberty;
He stole it with my ain free goodwill,
And I canna deny but I love him still.

2. Such a foolish young girl was I
To lay my love on a sailor boy;
A sailor boy altho' that he be,
He aye pro'ved true when he courted me.

3. As lang as my apron was to my toe
He followed me thro' frost and snow;
But now my apron's to my knee
He cares nae mair for my company.

4. There's an alehouse in yonder town
My love gangs and he sets himself down,
He takes another fair maid on his knee,
And he tells her what he has done to me?

5. There's a blackbird on yonder tree,
Some says it's blind and canna see,
I wish it had been the case with me,
When first I fell in his company.

6. I wish, I wish but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be
Till an apple grows on an orange tree.

6. I wish my baby it was born,
And set upon its nurse's knee,
And I myself were dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

7. I saw her love come in last night[1]
To search for his own heart's delight,
He ran upstairs, the doors he broke,
He found his love hanging on the rope.

8. He's ta'en his knife and he's cut her down,
And in her breast this note it was found:
"I promised to be this young man's wife,
And for his sake hae ta'en my life."

9. "You'll go dig my grave both long, wide and deep,
Put a marble stone at my head and my feet,
And in the midst a turtle-dove,
To let all the world know that I died in love."

1. dialogue abruptly shifts to 3rd person

What's clear here is the suicide is part of the UK tradition, and there are other versions. "Butcher Boy" is not used in the Scottish versions with the suicide.

* * * *

I'm looking at the New England versions now and they are very similar to many of the UK versions. Davidson's version (posted above) has the "Brisk Young Sailor" stanza not found in the US as such. The Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection has several versions that sound like UK versions. This corresponds fairly closely to I Wish, I Wish.

Butcher Boy - voice performance by Mrs. John Fairbanks at N. Springfield, Vermont. Dated 10-05-1939.

I Wish I wish I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til an orange grows on an apple tree.

When I wore my dresses low
He followed me through frost and snow,
Now I wear them to my chin,
He'll pass the door, and won't stop in.

Here's another example (first four stanzas given) from Flanders with the Davidson's "Blackbird" stanza. The informant is Irish:

Butcher Boy - voice performance by William Webster at Wakefield (Rhode Island). Classification #: LAP24. Dated 11-13-1952.

In Jersey City where I dwelled,
A butcher boy I loved so well,
He courted me my heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

There is a house right in this town,
Where my love goes she sits him down,
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he once tells to me.

Oh grief, oh grief I will tell you why,
Because she has more gold than I
Her gold will melt and silver fly,
She'll see the day she'll be as poor as I.

There is a bird, right in this tree,
Some say she's blind and she cannot see she
I wish to the Lord it's the same with me,
Before I fell into his company.

These are transcriptions I've made that are unavailable online and are not listed in Roud index. The titles were given by Flanders and may not be local titles.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 01:01 PM

I think we already posed the possibility that a Scottish version of the family gave rise to Butcher Boy. If that is plausible then it might be worth identifying which Scottish versions might have been involved. I still think at least some of the English versions collected since WWII derive from the American.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 10:20 PM

Hi,

TY Steve.

I'm convinced that Jersey (Jersey City) has nothing to do with the state "New Jersey" although it's not necessarily the Isle of Jersey but that makes more sense. I've been swapped with teaching, playing, my crazy girlfriend, fishing, writing other articles, rental properties and such.

I'm still plugging away at the US versions (hundreds) and I'll start posting a few. The first is from Vermont. Two stanzas are clearly from the UK (not usually in Butcher Boy): the last two lines of stanza 1 is from Brisk Young Sailor and the last stanza is I Wish I Wish modified. It seems likely that "Butcher Boy" at least originated in the UK but disappeared and only a half dozen UK versions have surfaced. Once it made it to the US/Canada it became popular. That's the direction I'm heading- enough versions in the UK have the suicide that are not The Cruel Father or Rambling Boy to make this presumption. I'm still at it- nothing certain yet.

Butcher Boy- from The Flanders Collection online as sung by Amos Eaton at S. Royalton (Vermont) on August, 12, 1945. Complete transcription R. Matteson 2017.

In New York Jersey there did dwell
A butcher boy and I knew him well
He courted me with his own free will
Where e'er he goes I love him still.

There was a girl in that same town,
My true love goes and he sits him down
He takes her too upon his knee
And he tells to her what he once told me.

Oh mother oh mother you do not know,
What pain and grief and sorrow, woe,
She took a chair and she set her down,
With pen and ink to write it down.

With every word she said, "Oh dear,"
With every line she dropped a tear,
She went upstairs to make her bed
And nothing to her mother said.

Her tender father came home at noon,
Inquired for his daughter soon,
He went upstairs and he burst the door
And he found her hanging to the floor.

He took his knife and he took her down
And in her bosom these words he found:
You'll dig my grave both wide and deep,
Lay a marble stone at my head and feet,
And on my bosom a turtle dove,
To show to the world that I died of love.

I wish I wish but I wish in vain,
I wish she were alive again,
But alive again she ne'er will be,
Till an orange grows on an apple tree.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 04:49 AM

Interesting points, Richie, The answer may lie in those British versions thta have a similar first stanza. 100

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 17 - 08:44 PM

Hi.

I'm working on US/Canada versions of Butcher Boy. The mystery is how the Butcher Boy originated since it has the suicide and few UK versions of Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover have the suicide.   

A single stanza from New York Folklore Quarterly - Volume 3, 1947 that appeared in an article, The Ballad of the Butcher Boy in the Rampano Mountains (by Anne Lutz), may prove to be a significant piece of the puzzle forming the origin of the popular "Butcher Boy" variant. The notes and stanza by Lutz follow:

    ONCE THERE was in London a butcher boy who made love to a girl and left her, and she hanged herself. At least there is an English version of "The Butcher Boy" that begins:

            In London town where I did dwell,
            A butcher boy whom I knew well
            He courted all my life away,
            And now with me he will not stay.

    That was sung for me by an old lady, now over ninety, who learned it as a child in Birmingham, England.

Even though this is just a standard single stanza, the fact that even one stanza of Butcher Boy was sung in Birmingham, England in the early 1860s is very important. It predates the US "Butcher Boy" broadsides c.1861 and seems to prove that "Butcher Boy" originated in England and was brought to the US. The standard belief is that the Butcher Boy originated in the US from an English variant of Died for Love/Brisk Young Sailor. Therefore versions of the Butcher Boy found in the UK originated in the US and crossed back over. Since Lutz's informant was in her 90s- say 94- and Lutz collected it in c.1946 - the informant would have learned it in Birmingham about 1860 when she was 8 years old. The odds of her being influenced by the c. 1860 broadsides are slim.

Lutz's simple explanation for the origin of the ballad makes sense-- that "once there was in London a butcher boy who made love to a girl and left her, and she hanged herself." These questions about the origin remain: Why haven't more early traditional or print versions with "Butcher Boy" surfaced in the UK? And- why is the suicide not present in versions of Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover, the obvious predecessors of Butcher Boy in the UK?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 05:55 PM

Hi,

I finished the short study of "Ripest Apple" and am posting it below. The stanza is found in several songs from the Died for Love family. It's importance is incidental and only in a few versions of Love is Teasing does it show any importance; even then only two lines of the stanza are used. It is regularly found as a stanza found in Roud 542 (Madam, I Have Come to Court You). Somehow the Traditional Ballad Index has titled Roud 542 -- Wheel of Fortune (Dublin City, Spanish Lady)-- which is mind boggling, if you consider that Wheel of Fortune has nothing to do with it. Here's the study online: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7v-the-ripest-apple-ripest-of-apples.aspx As always comments are welcome-- Richie

* * * *

7V. The Ripest Apple (Ripest of Apples)

A. "The Ripest of Apples," from Mr. H. C. Mercer, of Philadelphia, and he describes it as a 'Down East' coast song from the neighborhood of Portland, Maine. JFSS 1900.
Ba. "The Ripest of Apples" from Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London - Volumes 1-10 - Page 28, 1904; collected and arranged by A. Corbett-Smith. [no source given]
b. "The Ripest of Apples," from Sam Henry, March 7, 1936 as published in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, p. 383 by Gale Huntington, ‎Lani Herrmann - 2010 [No source given]

* * * *

[At the outer limits of the Died for Love family of songs is the stanza "Ripest Apple" or "Ripest of Apples" which has been found as:

1. A floating stanza in various Died for Love songs including "Love is Teasing" (Roud 1049), "Young Ladies" (Roud 451) and other relatives.
2. The first stanza of a short song titled "Ripest of Apples" made up of a few related stanzas. The related stanzas are associated with Roud 146 which has the "Water is Wide" or "Waly, Waly" (jolly boatsman) stanza found originally in the broadside "I'm Always Drunk." There is no Roud number for this rare version.
3. A stanza usually found in "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" which is Roud 542 and is known under a variety of names and variants. Two antecedent broadsides of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" were found by Steve Gardham which date 1760 and 1776.[1] The "Ripest Apple" stanza appears in the 1776 broadside under the title "A New Song" (Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature). The stanza usually comes near the end of all the variants of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You", although it has come first and been used as a title[2]-- causing confusion. No attempt will be made to explore the variants of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" in any great depth-- only the use of the floating stanza "Ripest Apple" as attached to that ballad will be pertinent to this study.
4. A floating stanza in other songs. Here are three examples: 1) "The Ripest Apple" in the Brown Collection of NC Folklore; 2) the print version, "The Jolly Sailor's Wedding;" and 3) "I Drew my Ship into the Harbour," a hybrid song with opening stanzas from the Drowsy Sleeper family.

Every appearance of the Ripest Apple stanza in not given in this study and only a few are used as examples of how the stanza has been varied. Since "Ripest Apple" appears as "Ripest of Apples," "Ripest Apples" and with a variety of other minor differences, only "Ripest Apple" will be used as a general term for the stanza or song. Suggesting that the short fragment of a song, "Ripest of Apples" (see number 2 above), my A and B, is the only use of "Ripest of Apples" would be incorrect since various stanzas use a variety of "Ripest Apple" words. The first extant use of the stanza is in a 1776 chapbook under the title "A New Song" (Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature). Here it is the 5th stanza and appears:

Ripest apples are the soonest rotten
Hottest love is the soonest cold
Young men's love is soonest forgotten
Maids take care be not too bold.

"A New Song" (Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature) is the first example of Roud 542 a group of songs known under a variety of titles-- as "The Quaker's Wooing," as "Twenty Eighteen" the first words of the chorus, as "The Handsome Woman," as "Oh No, John," as "No Sir," as "Spanish Lady" and a variety of other titles. A stanza from "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" dates this song to the late 1700s in the US. In 1822 John Randolph of Virginia wrote his niece and asked if she had heard a ballad with the following verse that he had heard as a child[3]:

What care I for your golden treasures?
What care I for your house and land?
What care I for your costly pleasures?
So as I get but a handsome man.

The song is about an unattractive young man who who sees a beautiful maiden in a garden and tries to court her by offering her gold, house and land but all she wants is a handsome man. Other examples of its use in this large song family will be presented later.

* * * *

Even though the "Ripest Apple" stanza dates back to 1776 in "Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature" it's unknown if there are other early sources of this stanza associated with the "jolly boatman" stanza which follows:

The seas they are deep, and I cannot wade them,
Nor have I, nor ever, the wings for to fly.
I would that my love were a jolly boatman
To ferry me over, my love and I.

Here's the stanza from "I'm Always Drunk and Seldom Sober," a song-sheet printed by John Pitts in London (Johnson Ballads 868) around 1820s:

The seas are deep and I cannot wade them,
Neither have I wings to fly,
I wish I had some little boat,
To carry over my love and I.

With modification this stanza became the "water is wide" stanza published by Sharp[4] under the title "Waly, Waly,' in the early 1900s. These two stanza form the fragment, Ripest of Apples found in Portland, Maine in the late 1800s[5] and also in Ireland about the same time[6]. The Maine version is a three stanza fragment that was collected from Miss Bichel by Mr. H. C. Mercer, of Philadelphia who called it a " 'Down East' coast song, from the neighbourhood of Portland, Maine[7]." Mercer added:

The adage seems to be used in many different ways, but there is little doubt that these three verses which Miss Bichel is going to sing to you are but a fragment of some longer ballad; as they stand, however, they make a very pretty song.

Here is the very pretty song, my A version:

The Ripest of Apples.

O the ripest of apples, they must soon grow rotten,
And the warmest of love, it must soon grow cold;
And young men's vows they must soon be forgotten,
Look out, pretty maiden, that you don't get controlled.

The seas they are deep and I cannot wade them,
Neither nor have I, the wings to fly.
But I wish I could find, some jolly, jolly boatsman,
To ferry me over, my love and I.

Oh I wish that me and my love was a sailin',
As far as the eye, could discern from the shore.
A sailin' so far, across the blue ocean,
Where no cares nor troubles, wouldn't bother us no more.

The last line of the "Ripest Apple" stanza is different. In the popular courting song the last line is standard, "Maids take care be not too bold." Now let's compare the "Ripest Apple" stanza found in "The Jolly Sailor's Wedding[8]," a print ballad dating back to the early 1800s:

Ripest apples, soonest rotten,
Hottest love, soonest cold;
Too fond maids are easy counselled
Though they're slighted when they're old.

The author of "The Jolly Sailor's Wedding" does not rhyme the third line and the last is also different. Let's look at the Ripest Apple stanza in a version of Love is Teasing by the Dubliners' text as sung by Ronnie Drew and recorded in 1963:

I Wish (Till Apples Grow)- by the Dubliners 1964, sung solo by Ronnie Drew. Transcription R. Matteson 2017.

I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish, I wish, I was a youth again
But a youth again I can never be
Till the apples grow on an ivy tree.

I left me father, I left me mother
I left all me sisters and brothers too
I left all me friends and me own relations
I left them all for to follow you.

But the sweetest apple is the soonest rotten
And the hottest love is the soonest cold
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

Oh love is pleasin' and love is teasin'
And love is a pleasure when first it's new
But as it grows older sure the love grows colder
And it fades away like the morning dew.

And love and porter makes a young man bolder
And love and whiskey makes him old and grey
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

In this case the first two lines of Ripest Apple have been joined with a line from "What Can't Be Cured" and a different ending line. This version has been covered by Marianne Faithfull and the Chieftains was popular in Irish Pubs in the late 1950s and 1960s[9]. This has also been titled, Love is Teasing, a song related to "I'm Always Drunk" (see Newfoundland version Love is Easin' and Keg of Brandy). The recent Irish versions of "Keg of Brandy," originating from an arrangement by Robbie O'Connell[10], have the "Ripest Apple" stanza.

In Cecil Sharp's MSS[11] there is a Ripest Apple stanza in I Wish I were Some Little Sparrow (False True Lover). It was sung by two girls, December 26, 1907 in Knott County, Kentucky and was supplied to Sharp by Olive Dame Campbell. Here's the stanza:

The ripest apple soon are rotten,
The truest love is soonest cold;
A young man's vows are soon forgotten,
Pray my pretty little miss don't be too bold!

This is the same stanza found in "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" songs and is the best known "Ripest Apple" stanza. The same stanza opens a song collected by I.G. Greer that was published in Brown Collection[12]. There notes and text follow:

The title line of this occurs in a song of the general character of 'Waly waly, but love is bonny' reported from Maine (JFSS 145); otherwise it has not been traced.

'The Ripest Apple.' Reported by I. G. Greer, Boone, Watauga county, probably in 1915.

1 The ripest apple the soonest rotten.
The purest love the soonest cold.
A young man's words are soon forgotten;
Oh, my love, don't be so bold.

2 Let my name be kindly spoken
When I'm far away from you;
And, although the vows be broken,
I will fondly speak of you.

3 In the past we loved each other,
Loved each other fond and true,
And I know that I shall never
Love another as I loved you,

4 Though I wander on forever
Seeking lands beyond the sea.
Well I know that I shall never,
Never find the like of thee.

In this case Greer's "Ripest Apple" stanza has been attached as the first stanza to a 1877 song, "Let My Name be Kindly Spoken," by S. C. Upham. In the 1882 book, "Northumbrian Minstrelsy" edited by John Collingwood Bruce, John Stokoe, the Ripest Apple stanza is given as part of the ballad " I Drew my Ship into the Harbour" which opens with stanzas from the Drowsy Sleeper family. Then comes a stanza of the Ripest Apple:

The ripest apple is soonest rotten,
The hottest love is soonest cold;
Seldom seen, is soon forgotten,
True love is timid, so be not bold.

Again, this is the stanza as found in the "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" songs. It is followed by a stanza unrelated to either song.

* * * *

My B version, a two stanza fragment of A, was collected in Ireland in the late 1800s and was published in the Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London, in 1904. Here is my B version with notes:

"The Ripest of Apples."
Folk Song, Arranged by A. Corbett-Smith

I HAVE had this little song in my collection for some considerable time, and I regret that I have no note as to where it was collected. It is, I feel sure, of Irish origin, and so far as I remember it is one of those noted in America. In rendering Folk Songs such as this in which the opening verse is repeated at the end I have found it most effective to sing the last verse mezza voce and without accompaniment, merely striking the tonic chord pp at the close.

"Oh, the ripest of apples they must soon grow rotten,
And the warmest of love it must soon grow cold,
And young men's vows they must soon be forgotten;
Look out, pretty maiden, that you don't get controlled.

The seas they are deep, and I cannot wade them,
Nor have I, nor ever, the wings for to fly.
I would that my love were a jolly boatman
To ferry me over, my love and I.

(Third verse, repeat verse 1)

This version shows that A is probably Irish and descended from an earlier unknown print version in Ireland or the UK. Additionally another Irish version Bb, was reported by Sam Henry on March 7, 1936. It was published in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, p. 383 by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann, 2010. Henry's version is identical to B and no source was provided.

As a final example, here is a version of titled Ripest Apples collected from Copper family[13]:

   Ripest Apples

Ripest apples soon gets rotten,
Hottest love it soon gets cold.
Young man's love is soon forgotten.
Since the girls have been so bold.

Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen.
Twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none.
Nineteen, seventeen, fifteen, thirteen.
Eleven, nine, seven, five, three and one.

Though I never went to college, but I heard the poet say:
Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen, twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none.

This is another variant of a "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" song. It only has the "Ripest Apple" stanza and the Chorus. There are a large number of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" songs-- most have the "Ripest Apple" stanza.

This study has covered the short "Ripest of Apple" songs, the relationships with Waly Waly/I'm Always Drunk, appearances of the stanza in the Died for Love extended family of songs and other some other stanzas found randomly in other ballads and songs.

R. Matteson 2017]

______________________________________________

Footnotes:

1. Found last in a group of three songs dated 1776 which are: 1) Montrose Lines, or, I'll ever love thee more; 2) Woo'd and Married and A' 3) A New Song. The 'A New Song' is from British Library, item 1346 m 7, Broadsides 1 to 42, this being item 29, 3 songs of which this is the third. Here's Steve Gardham's description of the volume: Large sheet music-size volume containing unusual broadsides, some set out as mid-18th century broadsheets, others as in the Brereton style of several slips together on one sheet. Most take a double page up and look as if they are enlarged copies of originals or else specially printed matter for collectors as most are very well finished and printed. Nearly all are fully dated with day/month/year 1775/6. No imprint though although the dating is very useful.
An earlier version without the Ripest Apple stanza is "The Lovely Creature" printed at Aldermary Churchyard by one of the Dicey/Marshall dynasty and is probably about 1760. It comes from British Library 11621 e 6, items 1 to 26, a variety of songsters mostly material sung at the various London pleasure gardens such as Vauxhall. Most of the songsters are the latest offerings and have about 20 songs in each songster. This one is from item 11 The Tom Tit Part 1, of 17 songs and this is the 4th song. 'The Lovely Creature'.
2. The Copper Family version is titled, "Ripest Apple" (see text immediately above). The recording is on VT115 (see last footnote).
3. "John Randolph of Roanoke, 1773-1833: A Biography" by William Cabell Bruce - 1922.
4. "Oh Waly, Waly", from Cecil Sharp, Folk Songs From Somerset. Third Series, 1906, p. 32/33.
5. "The Ripest Of Apples," from JFSS by Fuller Maitland 1900, p. 45, note, p. 29; contributed by H. C. Mercer of Philadelphia sometime is the late 1800s-- no date given.
6. Corbett-Smith's version, published in Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London, in 1904, was "in my collection for some considerable time"-- dating it back to the late 1800s.
7. From JFSS article by Fuller Maitland 1900, p. 45, note, p. 29.
8. The Jolly Sailor's Wedding is found online in "Real Sailor-songs" edited by John Ashton. It appears in a chapbook published in Newcastle upon Tyne, about 1800 which it titled: Drowned mariner; or, the Low-lands of Holland hath twin'd my love and me. To which are added, the jolly sailor's wedding. The sporting hay-makers. Absent Jockey.
9. Roy Palmer (Everyman's Book Of British Ballads; London: Dent, 1980) gives a tune that he says was "popular in folk clubs which is where he first heard it." Steve Gardham also said he first heard the song sung in pubs in England in the 1960s.
10. Reported by WTV Zone and other online sources as arranged from tradition by Robbie O'Connell, Liam Clancy's nephew, and recorded on his 1987 album Love Of The Land, on Green Linnet Records, Danbury, Connecticut.
11. The MS version is at Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at VWML) (CJS1/11/88) at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library online.
12. From Brown Collection of NC Folklore III, about 1956 (online at Internet Archive).
13. From Veteran Recording VT115, where the notes report: In 'The Copper Family Song Book - A Living Tradition' (1995) Bob Copper, while relating to his family's version of this song, says that this was the shortest song Jim (Copper) knew and he had developed a terrific speed in the chorus '…Twenty, eighteen, etc.', and thereby frequently qualified for the free pint of beer offered by the landlord of the local inn to be first man to sing a song." See also Mabs Hall recording collected by Mike Yates.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 06:44 PM

Hi,

This is what I have "Ripest Apple" is found in Love is Pleasing (several instances), as below in the related broadside "I'm Always drunk/Water is wide" here's the main example:

* * * *

Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London - Volumes 1-10 - Page 28, 1904

"The Ripest of Apples."

Folk Song, Arranged by A. CORBETT-SMITH.

I HAVE had this little song in my collection for some considerable time, and I regret that I have no note as to where it was collected. It is, I feel sure, of Irish origin, and so far as I remember it is one of those noted in America. In rendering Folk Songs such as this in which the opening verse is repeated at the end I have found it most effective to sing the last verse mezza voce and without accompaniment, merely striking the tonic chord pp at the close.

"Oh, the ripest of apples they must soon grow rotten,
And the warmest of love it must soon grow cold,
And young men's vows they must soon be forgotten;
Look out, pretty maiden, that you don't get controlled.

The seas they are deep, and I cannot wade them,
Nor have I, nor ever, the wings for to fly.
I would that my love were a jolly boatman
To ferry me over, my love and I.

(Third verse, repeat verse 1)

* * * *

I have it floating to the Greer collection in NC. i have it related to Died for Love end of "I drew my ship into the harbour"

"Come back, come back, my only true love,
   Come back, my aim one, and ease my pain;
Your voice I knew not, your face I saw not,
   Oh John my heart will break in twain."

The ripest apple is soonest rotten,
The hottest love is soonest cold;
Seldom seen, is soon forgotten,
True love is timid, so be not bold.

A brisk and braw stanza is found in Died for Love.

* * * *

It's found in courting songs of Roud 146, as a floater.

Not enough to give Ripest Apple any identity. There are a couple more instances I haven't checked on,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM

Hi,

The Robertson is the only other version where her sweetheart finds her and cuts her down. However, the rest of Killarney Tragedy is different that the Robertson and the Robertson has nothing to do with Cruel Father which the Killarney clearly does. There are at least two other Rambling Boy broadsides I don't have the complete text, one is Irish, the Goggin broadside. Perhaps they may have a similar stanza.

I'm ready for a slice of the Ripest Apple, not too ripe please.

By the way I just got my copy of--
Southern Harvest: English Folk Songs from the Hammond and Gardiner Manuscripts
Originally selected and edited by Frank Purslow
Revised by Steve Gardham
Foreword by Martin Carthy MBE
330 pages
ISBN 978 0 995747 30 2
Including the words and music for nearly 300 songs

I like the woodcut on the cover too. Great job Steve!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 04:11 PM

Robertson's 'Rambling Boy would appear to be the source.

My love he came late in the night
Seeking for his sweetheart's delight
He ran up stairs the door he broke
And he found her hanging by a rope.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:19 PM

Hi,

Steve- Let's do Ripest Apple. It has about as much to do with the Died for Love theme as "Love is Teasing" - love gone bad or rotten as it may be. It floats with other Died for Love stanzas.

If you could ck the date on this broadside, I've guessed c. 1850.

From the Trinity College broadside collection comes this Irish version of Cruel Father titled, The Killarney Tragedy which was issued by John F. Nugent Printer, 35 Cook St. Dublin c. 1850s. Here's the text in full:

The Killarney Tragedy

1. Come all you men and Maiden's fair,
Unto these lines now lend an ear,
There's not a word of this you'll hear,
But each couple courting will shed a tear.

2. Down by the lakes of Killarney side,
It was there young Sally she did reside,
She was courted by her young Johnny dear,
But soon her father he came to hear.

3. Now when her father he came to know,
Like a man distracted straightway did go,
Unto his desk where his pistols lay,
And swore her Johnny he'd shoot next day.

4. Young Sally hearing her father say,
He would kill Johnny upon the next day,
Straightway she went and made no delay,
Until she came where her true lover lay.

5. Oh rise up My Johnny, and go away,
To some Lonesome Valley-- Make no delay,
For my father stamped and he bitter swore,
That he'd have you bleeding, all in your gore.

6. Oh Johnny, Johnny, I love you well
I love you better than tongue can tell,
I Love you well, but I dare not show it
Since my cruel father he came to know it.

7. Houses and Lands Johnny father has for me,
All of them you'll gain if you come with me,
At your request Love, that never shall be,
Until apples grow on an ivy tree.

8. Like a Maid distracted straightway she went
And spent that night in great discontent,
And every tear that fell from her eyes,
For my Johnny Green I will surely die.

9. Her father he being out late one night,
Johnny inquired for his heart's delight,
Upstairs he went and the door he broke,
And found her hanging with her own bed-rope.

10. He called for a knife to cut her down,
And then in her bosom a note was found,
That the whole world may plainly see,
I loved this Man but he did not love me.

11. Now since young Sally did end her life
Johnny stamped and he took a knife,
He pierced his heart and the blood did pour,
And embraced young Sally all in his gore.

12. Come dig our grave both Long and deep,
With a marble stone then to cover it,
Place in the middle a white turtle dove,
To let the world know we died for love.

13. So all young Men and Maidens fair,
I pray take warning by this sad pair,
It was sly Cupid that did pierce his heart,
Which this couple their lives to part.

This has many elements from Died for Love songs from "Till an apple grows on an ivy tree" to "Come dig our grave both long and deep." The first two stanzas are an introduction, the third is typical "Cruel Father" stanza while 4 and 5 develop the plot. Stanzas 6-10 are Cruel Father/Rambling Boy with a twist. Johnny finds her body (instead of her father) and stabs himself (similar to Silver Dagger) so the broadside ends with a double suicide. This version is unique and it adds possibilities to what is known. The plot, although developed, loses credibility when she offers him houses and land if he'll just go away with her but he rejects her (typical of Died for Love) then kills himself after she's dead (not typical of Died for Love). If he really cared so much why wouldn't he just go away with her?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:09 PM

Stanzas move freely between these types of songs but I don't think Ripest Apples has anything in common with the theme here other than the odd borrowing of widely used commonplaces.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:32 AM

Got it now thanks (Bunting). I note online that only parts of the book are available. I have the full book if you need anything from it.

Ripest Apples is one of my Master Titles with lots of variants (Roud 542). I have broadside antecedents from the middle of the 18th century which I'll check out later.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 11:22 PM

Steve,

OK, Killarney Tragedy- 311 Irish broadsides- Trinity College- got it. Good find!! Cruel Father and Rambling Boy mixed!! I also found "Early Early by the Break of day" there, a second version- slightly different.

I'll post tomorrow,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 09:43 PM

Hi Steve,

Here's the link to the Bunting 1840 text:
https://books.google.com/books?id=OSFUBb9PrjAC&pg=PA100&dq=%22I+would+I+were+a+little+swallow%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8-t7wsNz It's in his song notes.

You need to keep giving me the antecedents you're sitting on- but I like to finish what I start-- at least get it to a point where it's reasonable. So there are 30 different ballads and songs so far in the related Died for Love family (a number of them under Died for Love)- but the end is in sight. I'm just trying to get everything roughed in.

Just look at each version and see if you've left anything off. The study can be improved later.

Did you look at the 311 Irish broadsides? I sent you the link a week ago. Thanks for sending the Greig and Tunney. Look at the Bunting-- it seems unlikely that Tunney's version would be exactly Bunting's. I know it's only three lines but Little Swallow is not well known. I'm accepting it as a version but it seems like Tunney took Bunting's text and finished it- that was my first impression.

I'll look at the 'The Killarney Tragedy'.

Do you think "The Ripest Apple" is a distant "died for love" variant? In Sam Henry it seems that way. It's really just a stanza but it's used with died for love stanzas and in the courting song "Twenty -Eighteen" see Broadwood's English Carols (Barry calls it the Quaker's Courtship)- just a stanza tho. That's probably the last associated stanza/song (not much of a song and obscure).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 03:25 AM

You are correct in assuming I'm sitting on this stuff. Nobody else is interested. The problem is you move far to fast for me. I have other commitments and you don't give me time to check out all my sources. Unlike some people I can't keep them all in my head. Not a criticism, just an observation.

You pointed me at Trinity College broadsides. Have a look at 105 'The Killarney Tragedy'. That should get your mouth watering. Either it's a reprint of an earlier piece or more likely a later rewrite trying to rationalise and tidy up the story!!!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 03:20 AM

Tunney got a lot of his songs from his mother. Whilst he did embellish some of his songs it may well still be totally oral.

The first 2 lines of the second stanza are absolutely typical of Irish broadsides/eighteenth century pleasure garden material/ Gaelic translation.

Where did you get the text (which page) in Bunting? In my copy all I can see is a tune and I can't sightread anyway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 10:22 PM

Hi,

TY Steve for sending this.

Here's an Irish version collected by Paddy Tunney which appears in his 1991 book, "Where Songs Do Thunder: Travels in Traditional Song":

Little Swallow

I would I were a little swallow,
I would rise into the air and fly,
Away to that inconstant rover,
And on his bosom I'd live and die.

But feathered warblers I cannot follow,
All pale in pining in woe I lie,
Far away from the arms of my darling,
In love and longing alone to die.

For joy and pleasure we seldom treasure,
When out of measure we love anew,
But love grows colder when we grow older,
Then fades away like the morning dew.

Bunting published the first three lines in 1840 under that title and wrote &c after that-- showing the text continued-- but the rest we may never know.

Although there's a chance this is authentic (Tunney claims to have gotten this from a female singer, no name, place or date known), it seems to be rewritten by Tunney and is suspicious. Here's why:

1. Tunney knows part of this was published by Bunting and his version is exactly the three line Bunting gave- highly unlikely considering the 150 years time difference.

2. Tunney's second stanza is far from traditional- anything is possible but at best it's rewritten. Someone doesn't sing swallow and then "feathered warblers."

3. The last stanza sounds traditional- fits - and is beautiful. It's doubtful that it has been altered much.

So this is possibly the third UK text. It's accepted with reservation.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 07:32 PM

Hi Steve,

You're right, even though they concluded "Come All Ye Fair and Tender Ladies" was of American origin, they didn't know everything but they did list Wheel of Fortune as a related broadside and from that alone it's easy to conclude that "Young Ladies" is British. I'm also confused of the two listings by Roud when clearly these are one ballad - yes the ballad almost disappeared in the UK in the 1800s- and except for Bunting's 1840 Irish fragment, I find no record of it. Greig's two versions (really one, since one is a fragment) are also clearly based on "Lady's Address" and most US versions have three stanzas directly from it.

I hope you don't have any more primary antecedents you're sitting on because that was an important find on your part- and who knows how long you've known that :) At least the info is out now and it can be used- which is all I care about- sharing info to improve understanding.

I'm done with the US headnotes for now: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-7ua-young-ladies-.aspx

Sharp collected over 30 versions of "Young Ladies" (many in his MSS) but the most interesting version, Sharp B, he edited out two stanzas (see his MS). It's going to take some time to put all the versions on my site :)

Thanks Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 04:08 PM

Don't be too hard on the Traditional Ballad Index. If they haven't got access to the Madden Collection and recently posted online versions they wouldn't know of the earlier versions.

Tunney to follow.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 11:23 AM

Hi,

It would be good to have another copy to compare the text since the title is slightly different (it has "all" in it)- see my last post.

I've roughed in the main "Young Ladies" headnotes here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7ua-young-ladies-little-sparrow.aspx

I'm looking for a version possibly titled "Little Sparrow" by Paddy Tunney of Ireland. It's in his early 1990s book and there's a recording. Anyone?

The American versions are different. The traditional ballad index confusingly doesn't call it a British ballad when it clearly is. Here are my US headnotes so far: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-7ua-young-ladies-.aspx I'm including the US rough draft below since it is short:

* * * *

[The American versions differ from their British counterparts. "Swallow" in most cases has become "sparrow." Although the two core stanzas[1] (the identifying stanza, "Come all ye fair" and the "swallow/sparrow" stanza) are the same, the secondary stanzas are different: in North America some of the secondary stanzas are borrowed from the Wheel of Fortune broadside, other British broadsides and the traditional Love is Teasing and Died for Love songs. Other secondary stanzas are homemade adaptations of the "maid abandoned by a false lover" type which resemble their British counterparts but are different. The US "sparrow" stanzas, instead of the once British "swallow" stanzas, feature a dialogue: the first sparrow stanza begins: "If I were a little sparrow" while the second stanza answers, "But I'm not a little sparrow." This dialogue is not found in the second sparrow stanza of the British antecedent[2] which begins:

Whene'er he talk'd then I would flutter,
All on his Breast with my tender Wings,

This British love song had almost completely disappeared from the UK by the 1900s with only two traditional variants found in Scotland by Gavin Grieg about 1908. Since it was very popular in Appalachia at that time[3] it may be assumed that in the 1700s and early 1800s it was brought over to the Virginia Colony[4] and disseminated westward into the Southern Mountains from Virginia by the early English, Irish and Scottish settlers.

The primary British antecedent is "The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens" a broadside printed in Newcastle, London and probably Scotland[5] in the later part of the 1700s. The earliest record is c. 1760 where it is found in "The Marybone concert: Being a choice collection of songs" which was "Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London." Here are the core stanzas from "The Lady's Address":

1. Come hither, all you pretty maidens,
Take Warning how you love a Man,
Like a bright star in a Summer's Morning
When day appears they are gone.

7. I wish I was a pretty swallow,
That nimbly in the Air could fly,
Then my false-hearted love I'd follow,
Whene'er he talk'd I would lie by.

Stanza 1 is the identifying stanza or "warning" stanza- the maiden who has been abandoned by a false love is warning other maidens about the capricious nature of men. In some versions only the swallow/sparrow stanzas are given and stanza 7 is the second identifying stanza. The whole broadside is given below in the Appendix, Item 1. Besides the two core stanzas are these two secondary stanzas:

2. They'll talk and tell you pretty stories,
They'll vow and swear they love you true,
But it is all to blast your Glory
That's all the love they have for you.

8. Whene'er he talk'd then I would flutter,
All on his Breast with my tender Wings,
And ask him who it was that flatter'd,
And told so many deluding Things.

Stanzas two and eight are occasionally found but reworded. Other stanzas come from the second antecedent, The Wheel of Fortune a British broadside dating c. 1830 but probably much older.

Here are the relevant stanzas from "Wheel" sometimes found in "Young Ladies"-- the entire text is found in Appendix, Item 2.

3. I did not think he was going to leave me,
Till the next morning when he came in;
Then he sat down and began a-talking,
Then all my sorrows did begin.

6 But turn you round, you wheel of fortune,
It's turn you round and smile on me;
For young men's words they are quite uncertain,
Which sad experience teaches me.

7. If I had known before I had courted,
That love had been so ill to win,
I wad locked my heart in a chest of gold,
And pon'd it with a silver pin.

10. But time will soon put an end to all things,
And love will soon put an end to me;
But surely there is a place of torment,
To punish my lover for slighting me.

Several American versions of Young Ladies have as many as two stanzas borrowed from "Wheel of Fortune." Mellinger Henry collected a version of "Young Ladies," his E version, that clearly shows "Wheel" as the secondary antecedent. Here's the text:

"Come, Roll 'round the Wheel of Fortune." The song was recorded near Cumberland Gap, Tennessee, by Glada Gully, a student in Lincoln Memorial University.
   
1. Come, roll 'round your wheel of fortune,
Come, roll around once more for me;
A young man's love is quite uncertain,
My own experience teaches me.

2. Once I had a gay, young lover,
He was my joy; he was my pride;
But now he's going with another,
He's sitting by another's side.

3. 1 must confess I dearly love him;
I kept the secret in my breast;
I never knew an ill about him
Until I learned to love him best.

4. I never knew he was going to leave me
Until one night when he came in;
He sat down by me and told me,
'Twas when my trouble first began.

5. Had I the wings of a little sparrow,
I wouldn't pine nor would I die,
But I would follow my false-hearted lover
And tell him where he told a lie.

6. Had I the wings of a little swallow,
Or had I the wings of a turtle dove,
I'd fly away from this world of sorrow
Into some land of light and love.

7. Now, all you girls, take warning;
Be careful how you love young men,
For they are like the stars of morning,
As soon as daylight they are gone

Henry's version begins with the "Wheel" identifying stanza, rarely found in tradition. Henry's stanza 4 is also directly from "Wheel" showing it is the secondary antecedent of "Young Ladies. The core stanzas 5 and 8 are from the main antecedent, ""The Lady's Address." Henry's second "sparrow" stanza (which curiously is "swallow") is the secondary swallow stanza found in the British broadside The Silver Pin[6]:

I wish I was a little swallow;
And my true love a turtle dove;
Then I would fly from this land of sorrow;
And rest upon some land of love.

This demonstrates the the nature of 'Young Ladies," a love song assembled with floating stanzas from various British broadsides and floating traditional song stanzas from the related "Love is Teasing" (the Waly,Waly family[7]) also with the warning stanza and from the Died for Love songs with the theme of the "maid of sorrow abandoned by her false lover."

_______________________________________________

Footnotes:

1. In this case the core stanzas and identifying stanza are the same. The "sparrow" stanza is the secondary identifying stanza.
2. The primary British antecedent is "The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens" a broadside printed in Newcastle and London.
3. I haven't counted the number of versions Sharp collected in Appalachia between 1916 and 1918 but it look like there are over 30 versions published and in his MSS.
4. Although the Virginia Colony refers to pre-Revolutionary War Virginia (before 1776), the same area of the James River basin continued to be an area of British immigration after the War.
5. Since two traditional versions were collected in Scotland around 1907 a Scottish print of "The Lady's Address" is likely.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 11:11 AM

I've actually seen and noted a copy of the 'Advice' version at the BL
but didn't have time to note it down other than the reference.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:31 PM

Hi,

Just a quick up-date or down-date as the case may be. The Lady's Advice to All Fair Maidens is dated as early as c. 1760 in a collection "Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London." Other printings are c.1780 or c.1790.

So it's a down-date :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:24 PM

Hi,

I've been working on "Fair and Tender Maidens" and today, after my query, Steve Gardham discovered the main antecedent, "The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens," in his collection. The song, once thought to be of US origin, is now derived from a broadside printed by Angus of Newcastle c.1800. Not only does it have the identifying stanza but stanza 7 has the "sparrow" (swallow) stanza followed by a different "sparrow" (swallow) stanza to conclude the broadside. Here's the text, capitalization and spelling kept as the original:

"The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens"

1. Come hither, all you pretty maidens,
Take Warning how you love a Man,
Like a bright star in a Summer's Morning
When day appears they are gone.

2. They'll talk and tell you pretty stories,
They'll vow and swear they love you true,
But it is all to blast your Glory
That's all the love they have for you.

3. It's I myself had once a Sweetheart,
He swore he lov'd me as his Life;
But that was only his false intention,
Ne'er to make me his lawful wife.

4. I was in his Eye a precious Jewel,
so tender was his love for me,
He swore his heart did burn like fuel
Whenever he my face did see.

5. But now, alas! that is all over,
He little thinks of what us past;
In Cupid's chains we were bound together,
There to remain while life did last.

6. May the heaven's bless that happy woman,
Who does enjoy my jewel bright;
His Wit and Beauty are more than common,
On him I place my chief Delight.

7. I wish I was a pretty swallow,
That nimbly in the Air could fly,
Then my false-hearted love I'd follow,
Whene'er he talk'd I would lie by.

8. Whene'er he talk'd then I would flutter,
All on his Breast with my tender Wings,
And ask him who it was that flatter'd,
And told so many deluding Things.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:51 AM

Hi,

I've nearly finished "Wheel of Fortune (When I Was Young)" here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7u-wheel-of-fortune.aspx

Here are my versions:

Aa. "Wheel of Fortune," broadside Firth c.18(132) from Bodelian Library online [no imprint, no date] 9 stanzas; probably printed by Hoggett (Durham).
b. "Wheel of Fortune," broadside called a "street ballad" in possession of Richard Ford, a London bookseller, dated c. 1840.
c. "Wheel of Fortune- A Fine New Song" broadside from Charles Harding Firth Collection at Sheffield University Library printed by W. & T. Fordyce, 48 Dean St. Newcastle, c. 1840.
d. "Wheel of Fortune," Poet's Box, 6 St. Andrew's Lane Glasgow, dated March 3, 1855. Air- All Around My Hat.
B. Wheel of Fortune- William Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 1 (1876) from the singing of an old woman in Buckie, (Enzie, Banffshire) before 1866. Christie added text from a broadside.
C. "When I Was Young I Was Well Belov-ed," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) of Glasgow who is Rev. J. B. Duncan's sister, c. 1890.
D. "The False Lover." Sung by William Watson of New Byth, collected by Greig. 1908.
E. "When I Was Young," sung by Mrs. Duncan of Aberdeenshire c. 1908.
F. "When I Was Young," sung by David Parrot of Befordshire.
G. "Come, Roll 'round the Wheel of Fortune." The song was recorded near Cumberland Gap, Tennessee, by Glada Gully, a student in Lincoln Memorial University, circa 1932.
Ha. "I Little Thocht My Love Wid Leave Me" sung by Norman Kennedy at a concert in Watertown near Boston on October 23, 1999 that was released in 2004 on his Autumn Harvest CD. About 1963 he learned from Isla Cameron (1927-1980).
b. "I Never Thought My Love Would Leave Me" recorded by June Tabor on "Abyssinians" (1983); her source was Isabel Sutherland who collected this song from one of the Stewarts at Blairgowrie.
I. "The Wheel of Fortune," sung by Tom Anderson, from IMTA site recording: http://www.itma.ie/gd/inishowen/song/wheel_of_fortune_tom_anderson/

If anyone knows about any other versions please post text or the version. "Wheel" is the source of stanzas of "Love is Teasing" and the US versions of "Young Ladies/Little Sparrow". There are several "Died for Love" stanzas mixed in some varaiants.

Comments welcome.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 05:32 PM

Hi,

TY Steve.

I do have a system for these but some versions are exceptions.

Isla referred to her source as one of the Fetterangus Stewarts from whom I have two versions already. It seems likely it's traditional but still it's not a specific source. There are two versions based on Isla's version.

Now I have three songs with a first verse from Wheel of Fortune-- two have the Love is Teasin' stanza.

Then I have the revival versions of Love is Teasin', a few of which I'm including but noting that "no informant or source has been named." Usually I don't do it. In this case the origin for several are pubs or folk clubs. The Dubliners, Alex Campbell, Jean Redpath, Dolly MacMahon are a few.

* * * *

I have two versions of this variant that have the Love is Teasin' opening stanza- they are another song but I'm not sure of its antecedent:

Oh Johnnie, Johnnie- From the recitation of Mary O'Donnell, Toberdoney, Dervock, Co. Antrim. Published in 1897.

1. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but love is bonnie,
A wee while just when it is new;
But when it's old, love, it then grows cold, love
And fades away like the morning dew.      

2. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but you are nice, love,
You are the first love that ere I had;
You are the first love that ere I had,      
So come kiss me, Johnnie, before ye gang.      

3. One kiss of my lips you ne'er shall get, love,      
Nor in my arms you ne'er shall lie,      
Until you grant me that one request, love,
That oftentime you did me deny.      

4. All for to grant you that one request, love,      
I might as well on you my heart bestow;
For as good a lover as you may come,
And who can hinder your love to go.      

5. It's love doth come, yes, and love doth go,
Like the wee sma' birds intill their nests;
If it's to tell you all that I know,
The lad's naw here that I love best.      

6. If he was here that's to be my dear
I'd cast those angry frowns away;
If he was here that's to be my dear,      
I'd scarce have power to say him nay,      

7. It's ower the moss, love, ye needna cross, love,
Nor through the mire ye needna ride;      
For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, love,
And you may to choose your ain self a bride.      

8. It's had I known, the first time I kissed you,      
Young woman's heart's love were so hard to win.
I would have locked it all in a chest, love,
And screwed it tight with a silver pin.      

Stanzas 1, 5, 8 are related to the Love is Teasin' songs. Otherwise, it's a different song. She tells Johnnie goodbye because she has a new sweetheart- not the standard "love forlorn" or "Died for Love" theme. A very similar version was collected by Sam Henry.

Any info on this? Not sure what to do with the two songs. Motherwell collected a version of Jamie Douglas in 1825 that has the same 1st stanza.

Anyone know more about this Irish ballad?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:22 AM

Richie,
There are several possible approaches to collections of commonplaces.

1. If they are a complete mixture it's best to treat them as an unique composition.

2. If they have a majority from a recognised autonomous song then classify them with that song noting the additions.

3. For study purposes it is usual to include a mixture as a version of all the songs that contributed to it.

I realise though with songs like this such decisions are far from simple.

When dealing with versions recorded by revival singers like Isla you need to be aware they often mix and match themselves which is why we always try to go back to their sources. Personally I don't include versions by revival singers in my main study index. This is not a qualitative decision as often the redactions of revival singers make superb songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:14 PM

Hi,

This version is from Isla Cameron (1927-1980) which was recorded by June tabor and Norman Kennedy under the title "I Little Thocht My Love Wid Leave Me." I don't have Norman's text (Anyone?) which I assume is the same only using Scotch dialect. Cameron said she got it from on of the Fetterangus Stewarts.

I Never Thought My Love Would Leave Me- June Tabor

I never thought that my love would leave me
Until that morning when he came in.
He sat down and I sat beside him;
'Twas then our troubles they did begin.

Oh love is pleasing and love is teasing
And love is a pleasure when first it's new.
But love grows older and grows quite colder
And fades away like the morning dew.

There is a tavern in yon town
And there my love goes and he sits down.
He takes a dark girl on his knee
And tells her what he once told me.

There is a blackbird sits on yon tree;
Some say he's blind and cannot see.
Some say he's blind and cannot see
And so is my false love to me.

I wish my father had never whistled,
I wish my mother had never sung;
I wish the cradle had never rocked me,
I wish I'd died, love, when I was young.

Mainly Norfolk lists it as version of "Love is Pleasing". It's all floating stanzas and I assume "Love is Pleasing" is not the chorus.

Lucy Stewart's version of I Wish has the last three stanzas but not the first two. The first stanza is from Wheel of Fortune. The first two stanzas are usually found in "Love is Pleasing".

How should this be classified? Died for Love? Love is Pleasing? I Never Thought My Love Would Leave Me?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 11:20 AM

Hi,

Here's my favorite oikotype of Love is Teasin':

Love it am a killin' thing,
Beauty am a blossom;
Ef yuh want tuh get yuh finger bit,
Poke it at a 'possum. [Perrow, VA 1912]

Perhaps it could be renamed "oink"type to include "Pig in a Pen":

Got a pig in a pen,
and corn to feed him on,
and a pretty little girl at home,
to feed him when I'm gone.

As for the Butcher Boy, I'm having trouble tracing its antecedent. There are a half dozen UK versions and a number of early US versions not influence by print. Working on it.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM

Glad to hear it's coming together. Do you use the term 'oecotypes/oikotypes'? This is usually where a new song made up from another or others has its own autonomy and has spread orally in the new recognisable form. The obvious example is 'Streets of Laredo' and also I suppose 'The Butcher Boy'. They are much more common your side of the pond but they can be identified over here as well. There are plenty of examples in Greig-Duncan as much rewriting went on in Scotland in the period between 1780 and 1820.

I keep meaning to be helpful but what with other distractions (projects and family) and the fact that you move so fast it's hard to keep up with you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 03:57 PM

Hi Steve,

No, I'm not sure the Wheel of Fortune that Leverage sang is the same song- and I should point that out- ty, that a song of that title was sung. I have found a few versions of it and I asked you about Wheel of Fortune in an email when I first started gathering notes and only had the one broadside. You never responded but do you have more info? When I asked you back in January I had over 200 pages of notes all jumbled on one page and over 100 pages on another. I could never go through that whole 200 pages of notes without stopping, fixing and arranging!!! I had to try and work my way out by separating the various versions. Here's a version of Young Ladies from Some Songs Traditional in the United States; Tolman, 1916:

I. I wish I was a little sparrow;
   I'd fly away from grief and sorrow;
   I'd fly away like a turtle dove;
   I'd fly away to my own true love.

2. 'Twas but last night he said to me:
   "I'll take you o'er the dark blue sea."
But now he's gone, and left me alone,
A single maid without a home.

3. Oh grief, oh grief! I'll tell you why:
   Because she has more gold than I;
He takes that other girl on his knee,
And tells her what he don't tell me.

4. I wish, I wish, but all in vain,
That my true love would come back again.
But then I know that will never be,
    Till the green, green grass grows over me.

So there is a good deal of mixing which involves going in different songs. So far I have 20. I'm also helping with other threads to which these songs are related: Peggy Gordon and the already mentioned "Young Ladies/Little Swallow" thread.

It's getting better :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:50 PM

My god, you cast your net wide, Richie! Just back from London seeing grandson no.2 arriving.

Once you decide which stanzas are definitely commonplaces you can start rigidly separating the different songs

Are you sure the 'Wheel of Fortune' sung by Leveridge is the same song? There are several songs with this title.

Will start looking at posting your books this week.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:36 PM

Hi,

I wanted to also point out that the US/Canada ballad, Peggy Gordon (Maggie Gordon) that dates back to the early 1800s also has the "Water is Wide" stanza and is also based on "I'm Always Drunk but Seldom Sober." Peggy Gordon does not have Love is Teasin' stanza or the other stanzas from Unfortunate Swain that are part of the the UK "Water is Wide."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 01:32 PM

Hi,

I finished the rough draft headnotes (for now) for Love is Teasin-- wow, it involves a number of songs and ballads:

Waly, Waly,
Jamie Douglas,
Arthur's Seat,
Wheel of Fortune,
Love is Pleasing,
I'm Often Drunk
Water is Wide
What Can't Be Cured
Youth and Folly,
Love is Lovely
Keg of Brandy
O'Reilly From The County Kerry
When First I Came to the County Limerick
(see also: Young Reilly)
Little Sparrow/Young Ladies
Oh What Needs I Go Busk and Braw

Here are my headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7k-love-is-teasing-love-is-pleasing.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 01:08 PM

Hi,

I had a break through on one of the related ballads: "Love is teasing", to read online: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7k-love-is-teasing-love-is-pleasing.aspx

What has been known is the identifying stanza "Love is teasing, love is pleasing" has been found in the 1500s- translated:

[Hey trollie lollie, love is jolly,
A while, (a) while it is new,
When it is old, it grows full cold,
Woe befalls the love untrue.]

Also it's found in Waly, Waly and Jamie Douglas (Motherwell- Child J). Stanzas are found in Waly, Waly, and early related broadsides "Arthur's Seat," circa 1700 and the second, "The Unfortunate Swain," circa 1750. Stanzas are also borrowed from Died for Love (see Lucy Stewart's version).

What isn't know is: the standard UK versions also collected by Jean Ritchie from an Irish woman in the US are based on the broadside Wheel of Fortune.

Here are the four stanzas from Wheel of Fortune:

Wheel of Fortune

When I was young I was much beloved
By all the young men in the country;
When I was blooming all in my blossom,
A false young lover deceived me.

I did not think he was going to leave me,
Till the next morning when he came in;
Then he sat down and began a-talking,
Then all my sorrows did begin.

I left my father, I left my mother;
I left my sister and brothers too;
And all my friends and old aquaintance,
I left them all to go with you.

If I had known before I had courted,
That love had been so ill to win,
I wad locked my heart in a chest of gold,
And pon'd it with a silver pin.

To view online: http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/static/images/sheets/20000/19042.gif The last stanza is found similarly in Waly, Waly, and Arthur's Seat.
Wheel of Fortune (see also Christie) dates back to at least the early 1700s (1714-1740) when it was sung by bassist Richard Leveridge (1670-1758) at the Theatre Royal In Lincolns Inn Fields. Not all versions uses the stanzas but the ones collected in the early 1900s in the UK do (see also Jean Ritchie's Irish version).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:43 PM

Hi,

I'm posting two related broadsides and a US print version:

THE WILLOW TREE

1 O take me to your arms, love,
For keen the wind does blow,
O take me to your arms, love,
For bitter is my woe;
She hears me not, she cares not,
Nor will she list to me,
Whilst here I lie alone to die,
Beneath the willow tree.

2 My love has wealth and beauty-
The rich attend her door;
My love has wealth and beauty,
And I, alas, am poor!
The ribband fair, that bound her hair,
Is all that's left to me;
While here I lie, alone to die,
Beneath the willow tree!

3 I once had gold and silver
I thought them without end;
I once had gold and silver,
And I thought I had a friend.
My wealth is lost- my friend is false-
My love he stole from me;
And here I lie, in misery,
Beneath the willow tree!

Ballads Catalogue 2806 c 18(337), Bodleian Ballads, c. 1815-1855, J. Pollock, North Shields.
____________________

THE WILLOW TREE

1 Don't you remember the vows so tender,
You fondly pledged to me,
When the stars & moon so sweetly shone
'Twas under the willow tree.
You vow'd you'd ne'er deceive me,
And fondly I believed thee,
When the moon shone so sweetly,
Over the willow tree.

2 Why did you say my lips were red
And made the scarlet pale,
And why did I, poor silly maid,
Believe the flattering tale.
I thought you ne'er deceived me,
So fondly I believed thee,
When you vow'd so sweetly,
You'd love no other but me.

3 Did you but know the silent tear
I've fondly shed for thee,
I never close my languid eyes
Unless to dream of thee,
And of joys that are departed,
I think quite broken-hearted,
And your world when last we parted
I love no other but thee.

4 Would I could tear you from my heart,
But that will never be,
Till I lie in the silent grave
Under some willow tree.
Then should you this way wander
You'd heave a sigh and ponder,
In her cold grave lies yonder,
The girl that died for me.

Harding B11 (3284), c. 1813-1838, J. Catnach, London, Bodleian Collection.
____________________________

BENEATH THE WILLOW TREE
"Words Thomas Dibdin" Music Dr. J. B. Herbert

1 Oh! take me to your arms my love,
For keen the wind doth blow,
Oh! take me to your arms my love,
For bitter is my woe.
She hears me not, she cares not,
Nor will she list to me.
She hears me not, she cares not,
Nor will she list to me.
And here I lie in misery,
Beneath the willow, the willow tree.

2 I once had gold and silver,
I thought them without end,
I once had gold and silver,
I thought I had a friend;
My wealth is lost, my friend is false,
My love is stolen from me,
My wealth is lost, my friend is false,
My love is stolen from me,
And here I lie in misery,
Beneath the willow, the willow tree.

Thomas Dibdin. Sheet music, 4/4, for bass solo; 1884, Balmer & Weber, St. Louis
__________________

None of these is the right antecedent but they are close. The unknown print source for "Bury Me Beneath the Willow" may be in the US about 1850 so searching in Bodleian may not help.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 04:30 PM

Hi,

The last related version I am doing a brief study of is "Bury Me Beneath The Willow (Weeping Willow Tree), found in the US, Roud 410.

There are some related English broadsides "Willow Tree" but they seem to not be the direct source and it may be an unknown print version from the US from the mid-1800s possibly based on a British broadside. Here's the study on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7t-bury-me-beneath-the-willow.aspx

There is a thread on this but maybe some new light may be shed. For now its origin is unknown.

Here are some of my headnotes with one text:

The origin of Bury Me Beneath The Willow is currently unknown. It's presumably fashioned after an unknown print version of some ancestor of Died for Love possibly of English origin[1]. The song dates back in the 1800s in the US and has been recorded by a number of early country artists including the Carter Family, who recorded it three times[2]. There are a number of possible antecedents but none are close enough to the popular US song to demonstrate a traceable lineage. What is known is that the ballad has the standard Died for Love theme with, in some variants, the Died for Love ending stanza. It is also associated with two other members of the Died for Love family: The "There is a Tavern/Radoo, Radoo" songs with the line, "I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree" and the "My Blue Eyed Boy" songs which have similar lyrics in the US while one UK variant is titled "The Willow." For these reason I'm including Bury Me Beneath The Willow (Weeping Willow Tree) as Appendix 7T.

This is the plot of the song as told by a woman singer: A maid's lover has abandoned her. Tomorrow was to be their wedding day, but now he is courting another girl. An angel softly whispers that he has been untrue and he no longer cares for her. The singer asks her friends to "bury me beneath the willow... And when he knows that I am sleeping, maybe then he'll think of me."

The identifying stanza, which is sometimes used as a chorus or repeated, is a variation on the "Go dig my grave" ending. One stanza which the Burnett-Rutherford version added at the end, but which the Carters did not use, was:

Upon my grave you'll plant a rosie,
Below my tomb a turtle dove,
To show the world I died to save him,
But I could not win in love.

A standard text was printed in The American Songbag by Carl Sandburg 1927 from Jake Zeitlin, with additional text from verses from R. W. Gordon.

O BURY ME BENEATH THE WILLOW

1 O bury me beneath the willow,
Beneath the weeping willow tree,
And when he comes he'll find me sleeping
And perhaps he'll weep for me.

2 Tomorrow was our wedding day,
But God only knows where he is.
He's gone, he's gone to seek another
He no longer cares for me.

3 My heart's in sorrow, I'm in trouble,
Grieving for the one I love
For oh, I know I'll never see him
Till we meet in Heaven above.

4 They told me that he did not love me,
But how could I believe them true
Until an angel whispered softly,
"He will prove untrue to you."

5 Place on my grave a snow-white lily
For to prove my love was true;
To show the world I died to save him
But his love I could not win.

6 So bury me beneath the willow,
Beneath the weeping willow tree,
And when he comes he'll find me sleeping
And perhaps he'll think of me.

Any texts of versions are welcomed. I'd like to find a direct antecedent, one standard stanza includes a visit by and angel who tells her that her lover is false.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 01 Mar 17 - 05:39 PM

Hi,

TY Steve. It's interesting that it has the false young man on yon green valley who leaves her-- [same as Yon Green Valley] then she follows him to London- different ballad.

I'll ck it out and see if there's any connection,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 17 - 04:03 PM

I have several broadside copies but none before c1850.