What Good Is Mudcat?

Subject: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM

It is immense good. It is incumbent among comedians and musicians to speak truth to power.
Then there is the historic data to preserve correctness.

As fractious as opinion may be, it is only opinion and we take it or leave it.

Then there are the national and international treasure of people we may meet here.
Golden ages of Mudcat come and go with those who pass on, but what they have passed on stays with us.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:16 PM

Subject: Us and Them
From: Jerry Rasmussen - PM
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:36 AM

Given a choice, would you rather be one of "us," or one of "them?" If you're one of us, you reinforce everything we believe in. You agree with us. That's very comforting. It's good to know that you're right. If you're one of them, you're misguided at best. More likely, you're looked upon as insensitive (in contrast to how sensitive we are,) selfish and downright delusional. You aren't logical. Given a choice, I'll take neither of the above. I've never been much for group-think.

It really doesn't make much difference what the criteria are for being one of "us." It can be being a Christian, being a Liberal (which is code for Democrat, as we all know Republicans can never have a liberal thought in their head.) gay or straight. The important thing is that you are not one of "them." I find all of this extremely stifling. When I am on a Christian web site and someone starts ranting about homosexuals, I quietly exit stage left.
When people seem to be talking to hear themselves talk rather than to carry on a respectful conversation, I make for the nearest exit, left or right.
When people on here talk as if you have to be a Democrat and be in lock step with every Liberal position to like folk music, I think of the wonderful friends I have who are thoughtful, generous, loving and socially responsible who are Republican, including some who used to frequent Mudcat. Just when did folk music become the property of Democrats?

People bemoan the fact that folk music isn't as popular as it was in the 60's (or claim that it is.) For the brief moment that folk music had national popularity in the fifties and sixties, it was folk music, not Democrat music. Sure, there were important political songs that fueled great movements in helping to forge alliances for social change. But if you look at the body of folk music, only a small percentage of it is political. When you have to be a card-carrying Democrat to be welcomed into the folk community you immediately eliminate half the folk.

Many years ago when I was running a folk concert series I noticed when I booked a bluegrass group, I got a completely different audience. At the end of a bluegrass concert, I asked the audience to tell to me on the way out why they never came to the folk concerts. The most common complaint I received was, "I don't want to sit around all evening listening to someone complain." I protested strongly that folk music is not primarily protest music, but to no avail. Like most perceptions about the difference between "us" and "them," "Them" was stereotyped in the most negative, simplistic way. I wrote an article titled Rednecks versus Protest Singers with tongue in cheek that was a collection of quotes of cliches and judgments I'd heard from the folk and non-folk communities. They sounded as simplistic and inflexible as those I hear about gays and non-gays, Christians and non-Christians, Liberals and non-liberals.
The minute you define yourself as not being someone else, you get intellectually lazy. So, do you want to be an intellectual, or a non-intellectual.

And the game goes on.

There's a much better choice than "us" or "them." It's called "we."
This country has gotten into the mess we have in large part because
"us" and them" has become "us" versus "them."

I bet Bascom Lamar Lunsford was a Republican. He was a lawyer, for God's sake! The only work he ever did with his hands was sticking them in someone else's pockets. Sounds stupid, don't it. And it is.
But no more foolish than the endless quest to divide people into warring factions.

What do you think?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:17 PM

Folk music should rightfully be a vehicle for bringing people together in harmony. There are tribal divisions in folk music and the "us" and "them" are exacerbated by
those who have a "dog in that hunt". There are those who want folk music to be their private little sinecure and exclude "outsiders".
There are those like the BNP or some factions of the bluegrass scene who use the music to further their political and ethnic prejudices.
Then there are folk snobs. (Oh yes there are!)

Music ideally is the language of healing as Tommy Sands says so beautifully in his song. There are those who have been at the forefront of this ideal such as Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Judy Collins and others who are lesser known. I think Jerry that this is what has connected us to folk music, that it is the music of the human condition, that we can accept emotionally, psychologically and in other ways. It's about people and those who really get it have a reverence for human life.

Frank Hamilton

http://mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=2691363

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:20 PM

It is important to be reminded of the obvious, the fundamentals of why WE are here.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 02:23 PM

Over the years I have been posting, above the line has been helpful, informative, generous, a wonderful means of disseminating and gathering information.

Sad to say that below the line it has degenerated in some part into a slanging match .............. before anyone castigates me, I know, I too am guilty, Mea Culpa.

Even taking that into consideration it is a vehicle for good.

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 02:44 PM

"I bet Bascom Lamar Lunsford was a Republican. He was a lawyer, for God's sake!"
He objected to benefit concert for Woodie Guthrie in his home town - an indication of his politics, I would have thought.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: JHW
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 03:49 PM

Somewhere when I joined I think there was a condition saying you were not permitted to discuss Mudcat on Mudcat

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 06:34 PM

Hi, JHW. The prohibition is against thread discussion of Mudcat editing policy. Common sense dictates that we moderators not discuss or defend our editorial actions in a public forum, so it's not fair to allow attacks on what cannot be defended. Questions about moderation policy should go to Max, to me, or to any moderator you might know.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 06:40 PM

Who needs mods! We will fix it, Raggytash! See Labour thread!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 07:20 PM

mudcat above the line is really the only meeting place for those of us in folk music without delusions of innate superiority. when i die, i don't want a funeral but i'd like it announced on the cat.

there is such diversity.

i think most of us have managed (even idiots like me) to internalise the Dylan line - you're right from your side - i'm eight from mine.

down belowthe line....well basically the baddies have won.

there is just no acceptance that the other guy might be a law abiding decent chap, who just happens to have lived a life that gives him a different viewpoint to you. no respect. just abuse.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 07:43 PM

Too dismal, Al. We are working on a non-mod solution. Just you wait and see!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 08:09 PM

If I had the innate talent to sing AND play I would be above the line more than below but I do not, so I am mostly a below the line kind of guy. Playing Irish fiddle is every bit as hard as Bach, if not harder. I can do only one thing at a time. There are a few exceptions like chewing gum and walking.

An unattractive voice with heart is certainly effective but I am too embarrassed to go there. Dylan had neither an effective or heartfelt voice but wrote damn good songs.

Would I trade a so called 6th sense for full musical skills? There are days I would. You could say I am stupid but there are other things that redeem my existence.

I could, like some others, grow my ear hair, pull my pants up to my armpits and complain about the government full time in Florida.
Guys like that seem surprised that there are people different from them. I have an answer for them - the gift of tolerance amidst the work that needs to be done to evolve world culture.

The simple reason why some people are continually combative is not because they are bullies, It is because they were once VICTIMS with great suffering. Coming to terms with that is something we would all wish they successfully do.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 09:33 PM

Yeah great.. mudcat a hippy love fest..

Donny.. use your superior intelligence to investigate why imdb has just burned/ deleted years of user forum data base.

the worst crime of library burning since aLEXANDRIA..

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 09:41 PM

WE ARE BORN ARSEHO.ES.. WE TALK SHIT

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 09:45 PM

keyboard went a bit wonky..
mudcat is a nexus for arseholes who think they are more intelligent than they are..

but we do like good music

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: ollaimh
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 10:58 PM

without mudcat i wouldn't have understood how deeply and profoundly engrained racism and class bigotry are in anglo culture

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 11:14 PM

mudcat is non stop death...

obit after obit...


this is not a happy place to attract new young people....

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 11:44 PM

yes i suppose we are racists and class bigots, and that unfortunately is our culture.

and the thing about those strands in our culture - they have a million different manifestations.

that's why its such a giveaway when you find people on mudcat pronouncing themselves untainted by predjudice and qualified to denounce others.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 11:50 PM

nearly 5.00 am .. you still up big Al..??

I'm in a life is shit mood..

but you are one of the few mudcatters I respect... warts and all...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:29 AM

Subtle as a brick BigAl but well put !

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:33 AM

I think I said elsewhere that it can be considered a care in the community program.

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:48 AM

I doubt if anyone is untainted by prejudice. Some people just better at seeing it for what it is and trying their best to make sure it does not affect their everyday dealings with other people.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 04:12 AM

"yes i suppose we are racists and class bigots, and that unfortunately is our culture."
No it isn't Al
My generation was brought up to regard foreigners as inferior and dependent - a mixture of our history of foreign wars and an Empire that depended on exploiting weaker countries - that had nothing to do with 'culture' - it was political (and to some degree, religious) manipulation from the top.
British people, while often holding racist views, are naturally tolerant when it comes down to one-to-one contact (my experience anyway).
Come an economic or political crisis and out come the flag-waggers putting the blame on THOSE BLOODY.... WHOEVER - TAKING OUR JOBS AND HOUSES AND LUSTING AFTER OUR WOMEN - Mosley, Powell, The National Front, The British National Party, Ukip..........
They are the racists, or they have a vested interest in our blaming others for their cock-ups.
I have no intention in making a feature of this - not here anyway, but as you have brought this up before, I though it needed getting out of the way.
Ideally, Mudcat is a place to discuss this, but - too many personal agendas
Ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:50 AM

"without mudcat i wouldn't have understood how deeply and profoundly engrained racism and class bigotry are in anglo culture"

Ye gods, he's even having a pot at concertina players now! Mind you, I once knew a bigoted dobro player...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:59 AM

yes! play a melodeon or Wheatstone and you'll be as tolerant as Jim.

not in our culture!...half the architechtural glories of England were built with slave money, the national anthem is racist....we even cling to the DEF as the monarch's title, all the crown jewels weren't picked up on Bargain Hunt...we looted them from everywhere that was unwise enough not to kill the first settlers.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 08:48 AM

Exactly, Al. What most people are trying to do is replace that mindset but there are some who would have us back there in the blink of an imperialist eye. Which is why we must guard against seeing those from different cultures as being somehow inferior. Casting a group of people as being criminals or anything else because of where they were born is simply wrong.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 08:53 AM

Casting them as Catholics or Muslims (other brands are avaiable) because of where they were born is just as wrong. There is no such thing as a Catholic child or a Muslim child.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 08:59 AM

There are a few exceptions like chewing gum and walking.

I think the original quote was "fart & chew gum". Which makes more sense as an insult. IMNSHO

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:16 AM

Learning.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:36 AM

"I bet Bascom Lamar Lunsford was a Republican. He was a lawyer, for God's sake! The only work he ever did with his hands was sticking them in someone else's pockets. Sounds stupid, don't it. And it is.
"too simplistic and unfair and untyrue", he worked as a teacher, and did a lot of useful folklore collecting
Bascom Lamar Lunsford was born at Mars Hill, Madison County, North Carolina in 1882, into the world of traditional Appalachian folk music. At an early age, his father, a teacher, gave him a fiddle, and his mother sang religious songs and traditional ballads. Lunsford also learned banjo and began to perform at weddings and square dances.

After qualifying as a teacher at Rutherford College, Lunsford taught at schools in Madison County. In 1913, Lunsford qualified in law at Trinity College, later to become Duke University. He began to travel and collect material at the start of the 20th century, often meeting singers on isolated farms. Lunsford has been quoted as saying he spent "nights in more homes from Harpers Ferry to Iron Mountain than God".
Bascom was involved in the politics of the Democratic Party. He managed the campaign for Congressman Zebulon Weaver for North Carolina. From 1931 to 1934 he was a reading clerk of the North Carolina House of Representatives. Charles Seeger employed him in the mid-30s to promote singers in "Skyline Farms", as part of the "New Deal". Lunsford was invited to the White House by President Roosevelt in 1939, when he performed his music for King George VI.[ Lunsford died on 4 September 1973.
Donuel,get your facts right, he was a democrat, a fine banjo player, he had also worked as a teacher, he did a fine job of collecting appalachian songs and tunes.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 11:13 AM

It is children that teach us more about tolerance than anyobe else, Steve. When I go on our local park I see children of all colours playing happily together. They have no idea what religion or culture their playmates come from and any fights that happen occur because of what someone has done, not because of what they are. We could all learn a lot from them.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM

Dave I saw what i saw. stop trying to label it as racist. They were crooks. They were eastern european.

The guy who promised to cut my trees down and run off with £70 having done nothing was a gypsy. It doesn't mean all gypsies are bad eggs. However when its pointless to tell the police force of Boston when your store is being robbed - this is not a situation that has obtained until recently ,believe me.

okay don't believe me, but i think its you who've got the skewed view of things. Obviously the police chief is going a bit Jim Callaghan - crisis, what crisis? That way you don't have to do anything but it ends with nearly eighty percent of the town voting for Brexit.

You would have us live in an Ostrichocracy, dave.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 11:22 AM

jIM,I will clarify Lunsford was an aCtive supporter of the democrat party in the USA

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 12:03 PM

yeh the democrat /republican thing isn't a 2 legs good/4 legs bad dichotony.

In history lincoln was a republican of course.

The Earps were republicans. The outlaws were democrats.

In the Kennedy/ Nixon election - the first one I remember. Nixon seemed the more plausible. Kennedy just came across as a really good haircut.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 12:29 PM

As long as you carry on bringing it up Al, I am happy to repeat it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 01:42 PM

There are so many different kinds of smart I often wondered what a totally actualized pan smart human could be. Some one cruelly said I will never know. They are probably right but the question still begs an answer.

Tom Farmer, a civil rights activist taught me we are all racists.
Some in protest to the animosity directed at them and some for taking advantage of the status their color affords them and a million kinds of bigotry in between.

When different educational backgrounds interact, expectations will conflict. Get over it and keep learning

Schweik, Jerry Rasmussen wrote about Lamar not me. I did not know who he was till now.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 01:53 PM

I think the Tom Farmer quote is partially true, Donuel. I am not sure if it is race related though or just difference related. We all fear the different in one way or another. Some are better at controlling that fear and part of the process is recognising it.

Keep learning is the right way forward and I hope that I can do that until my dying day.

And this is the type of good that can come out of Mudcat :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 02:50 PM

Unfortunately my Dad's dying day was 9-11. It kinda took the hope out of his sails.

Sort of like a rule in life;
Expect the huge disappointment and celebrate the miniscule progress.

I really thought the Obama years heralded a new age of enlightenment only to be dashed by backlash.

If this thread does not inspire a great new song I will be disappointed. Its all grist for the mill.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:18 PM

If this thread does, in fact, inspire a new song -- great, or otherwise -- it will then give the lie to one opinion posted earlier, that what is political is not cultural. I can picture Martin Carthy shooting that one down, point blank! Without batting an eye! Mind you, I never had the privilege of meeting Carthy although I heard him sing in person. But Carthy's interviews and essays are most eloquent about the subversive characteristic of the English in their wordsmithing, and he would include more-or-less-political verbalizing in there. Emphasis on "include."

That's the heartening point agreed to by a majority, that Mudcat is inclusive.
Of course that means you have to agree to disagree with others, and sometimes you have to make yourself stop and think before you give in to the temptation to take offense.

Member Ollaimh is a good example for me. The post to this thread commented on something Ollaimh had observed at this forum. I think you'll find, though, should you do a search for it, that on this same forum, the same member more precisely volunteered that this same something "used to be" prevalent here. Regardless, in my time here I have learned that when Ollaimh has something to say, it will be worth listening to, even should I disagree.

I know that I have given offense on other threads to other members and moderators alike. I remember to watch my big mouth, metaphorically speaking, when I log in here lately.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:36 PM

I have learned that when Ollaimh has something to say, it will be worth listening to, even should I disagree.

What can you learn from someone who purports to be against racism yet is prejudice against a whole race? Irony maybe?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:16 PM

Donuel, Jerry Rasmussen was wrong.
KEBEROXU, I have had the privilege of meeting Carthy quite a lot. I have great respect for him as a person singer and musician, but I do not always agree with him.
Political songs can be cultural, non political songs can also be cultural,
" what is political is not cultural" well that can occasionally be true, how about the horst wessel song?is that cultural?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM

what good is Mudcat?

THREAD DRIFT

that's what!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:47 PM

Nixon seemed the more plausible.

Yeah, and we all know how that one worked out-----

In history lincoln was a republican

Oh pleaswe, not that old line of BS. Presented with the current Republican party in the U.S. Lincoln would throw up at the very least.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:04 PM

Greg all that was fake news. ;^) Didn't Lincoln hire Gen. John Galt to deport the Indians, Mexicans and Blacks but the General's ship went down on the first voyage. It hit an underwater wall.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:40 PM

We all think of our culture is normal. It is just one culture of millions over 70,000 years. If you were an Aztec you would have thought some pretty weird shit was normal.

Culture is always crazy depending on your POV

Hell, we all shit in our drinking water and think that is normal every time we flush.

We know what is up with Democrats and Republicans but Technocrats believe that technology will save us all. With new energy sources, population control and advanced vehicles in a couple hundred to a thousand years we should get a handle on the climate.
Think how cars changed culture
In the future, kids will ask Dad&Mom to borrow the flying saucer for a date.

Now how is that for thread drift.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:32 PM

Technocrats believe that technology will save us all.

Yup. Just like Twitter - that one worked a treat didn't it?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 03:08 AM

and Farcebook

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM

well i didn't say i was upset Dave. I just reported what numerous people said to me and was reflected in the Brexit poll. I'm bloody sorry if the world does not conform to your strict standards, but I do not see that me distorting the truth is helpful to anyone except the ostrichocracy.

Of course we can pretend the world revolves round your vision of harmony and light.

Perhaps you missed your calling in life working for Tass telling everyone about how bloody fantastic the five years plan is. Or maybe Dr Goebells could have found use for your talents as a finger pointer.

However I'm not going to start lying about what I experienced at my time of life. And frankly I'm pissed off that you should feel you have the right to apply that pressure to make me, just because what i say is 'off message'.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 04:27 AM

You have still not answered the question, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 05:59 AM

I suppose its a bit like the Pope being denial about priest paedophiles - my gang, right or wrong.

bless you my son.