Question for UK Folk Club organisers.

Subject: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 07:00 AM

Can I ask what your policy is regarding performers' guest lists ?

We are trying to formulate a policy at our club and would like to get feedback regarding what is normal practice at other clubs.

It has been suggested to us that two free entries per band member is common ... which obviously would be impractical in the case of a seven piece band, as will be appearing at our club (Edinburgh) in two weeks time.

Do you make the guest list conditions known to your performers in advance, at time of booking ?

Feedback from gigging performers also welcomed, of course.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 07:07 AM

Murray, going back to when I ran a club I didn't give any free tickets out. If the partner of a guest turned up I wouldn't charge them had the guest brought more than one I have would charged.

Having said that it didn't occur at all during 4 years of running clubs.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 08:00 AM

Being involved in a Ceilidh Series - not sure how many complimentary tickets we give, but it is common to have mothers and sisters looking after kiddos, even if they dance. We muck in and help with packing up equipment, though there may be an assistant of the band.

And overnight accommodation (pretty much essential for non-drivers), is usually with organisers and willing attendees. It does make fees more reasonable and speaking personally it makes for a more rounded event. And safer for the bands.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 08:24 AM

i think you just have to do what suits you, and doesn't bankrupt you. one thing is sure - you won't suit everybody.

it depends to a large extent on the size of your club, the scope of your guest list, the financial support from the venue etc.

best of luck...you are working for the power of enlightenment and great virtue.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Gozz
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 08:38 AM

Like Mr Red, I cannot claim to have run folk clubs, but I have been around them for almost all my life.

I don't think ceilidh series are a fair comparison though, because many folk clubs are in smaller venues, often with maximum capacities of about 30/40 people, so Murray's point about a seven piece band becomes quite critical. However, Mr Red does acknowledge that some performers turn up with a "helper" and I do agree that this person has to be let in for free. Beyond that, if the venue is small it would seem reasonable to restrict the performers "guest list" to two persons only (not each), then if the band have any particular friends/family in your area, you can let them in, but beyond this and you could be turning away regular audience and/or cutting seriously into your takings for that night. This could effect the viability of the club in the longer term.

I make this last point on the back of discussions we were having at a regular session I attend. How it seems to have changed in folk clubs now when artists are asking for a Travel Lodge or similar booking for the night. Gone are the days when artists were put up by a club member for the night and a late night session was always on the cards at that persons house. More the pity from many angles, not least clubs folding because they can't balance the books.

I think we must differentiate between an intimate "club" booking and a "concert venue" booking on this one. The figures have to balance, I agree with Big Al on that one.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 09:20 AM

i still get performers who are happy to kip on the sofa or in the spare room. i think it depends what their budget is, the state of their career, what they think of your company, etc.

i was never keen on the travel lodge business as you had to get out and wander the streets in some place where you didn't know anybody.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 09:48 AM

You get all shades of things happening, from bands whose friends turn up in their hordes ALL claiming to be on the guest list and expecting free entry, to others who are known professional musicians and friends of the band, but still kindly offer to pay.
I would have thought that 2 free tickets (total)for a small band, soloist or duo would be reasonable, but maybe extend it to 4 for a larger band: in practice, not everyone in the band is necessarily going to want to invite someone.
In practice, it may be good to ask in advance just WHO might want to be a guest and then keep a "named person" list at the entry point, which the ticket-checkers can refer to. (This is what happens in the pop/indie world if I go to see my son's band!)

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 09:48 AM

Why not have a guest list but take the cost of artist's guest(s) admission off the artist's fee? That would be fair, wouldn't it? Why should the club pay twice?

Calm down, I'm trolling ;-)

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 10:12 AM

25+ years of running a club which paid artists what was taken on the door. If their friends did not pay, their fee was less. Seemples :-)

Seriously though - I know this would not suit everyone but we never had an issue.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 10:35 AM

In the years when I ran a club I don't think that this was ever an issue. If the performer arrived with spouse or a driver then they got in.

When I became involved with larger venues people putting up the guest got freebies otherwise it would be 2 guests per person max. The guest list is ALWAYS agreed before the gig, if your name isn't on the door then you pay. (There may be a refund when an apoligetic band member comes round in the interval but that is another matter)

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 01:58 PM

Murray,

For many years, I was on the committee of a club which you will know very well.

The original constitution stated that all the audience including the committee paid to get in with the exception of whoever was working on the door. It is much more relaxed these days but, as far as I'm aware, this club never quite got round to writing a new constitution.

Generally, we used to allow one guest per artist or band member. 2 per member would have been considered excessive. Sometimes, we would stipulate that guest tickets would be deducted from the total before we calculated their fee..If they exceeded the guarantee and we're due a percentage. This helped to concentrate the artists/bands' minds no end. ;-))

There was always a bit of "come and go" especially if an artist's friend was providing transport and/or accommodation as this saved the club money.

In recent years, reviewers also have been given free entry at this particular club and the committee members too.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 06:18 PM

i always insist on paying for my ticket. even if i'm providing transport/accommodation. the point is - do i want the folk club that is supplying my friend with a gig to prosper, or not?

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 01:29 PM

I've seen that policy tried at the odd club with predictable bad results. It's a bad idea even for Due's as it always brings calls of favouritism and the unfairness is compounded by ridicule when you get group of more than two. Duos and bands choose to be in groups, they sont suddenly become any more worthy of extra songs than solo artists. I'd give any club with such a policy a very wide berth!

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 02:11 PM

I'm thinking you might be confusing the issue under discussion, Desi.

The question is not about whether friends of the band get to sing but whether they should get free entry into the gig.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 03:32 PM

If you cannot give free entry for band members dont bother running a club.
your guests should be able to fill the club, if they bring extra members, if you let them in for free they will undoubtedly spend money over the bar or on raffle tickets.
we have an example here of saving pennies and losing pounds, if people have got in for free that fills the club room, people do not like going in to half empty rooms., but they are desperate to get into a place that is packed.
when the spinners started, their first concert they gave away all the tickets free, next time they gave away half the tickets next time the gave away a quarter , that is the way to do it, pack the place out.
murray mcleod is a scotsman.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 03:50 PM

Dick you are talking nonsense

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 05:14 PM

That would have been The Spinners decision as opposed to the venue or club, surely?

By that logic, the guest artists and bands should offer to perform free first time and then for half their fee next time and so on.

Murray's concern is quite reasonable. 14 free tickets for a small club would be excessive although it probably wouldn't come to that. In many venues, it might even mean that some paying punters could be turned away.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 05:19 PM

As for spending money over the bar, many of these "guests" will certainly do that and quite probably talk all the way through the performance. :-((

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 06:23 PM

the point is that publicans only want to have venues where people are buyiong their drink [alcoholic or non alcoholic]. the more people spending money in the club the happier the piub;ican is to allow the club to be there.Why do you assume that people are going to tak because they havent paid or remain silent because they have paid,that is nonsense.
well if the venue is full it hardly matters if there is some complimentaries, the guest have done their job in drawing a lot of people. anyway the question is stupid anyway, this should all be sorted out individually by contract with each different group, and with consideration dependent on their fee.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 06:40 PM

Why do you assume that every club is a model of the many successful clubs you have run - however many that is?

I don't see why hangers-on should get any freebies.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 07:11 PM

I repeat, it depends upon each individual situation, if the group is performing on the basis of door takings, then it makes little difference to the organiser, if they expect a guaranteed fee then all that should be sorted before hand in a contract.
if for example somebody had acted as a driver for the artist or is sound man for the group, i would think it reasonable to allow them in for nothing.
in my experience it is very rare for a group to expect to allow in 14 friends, if however they were not performing for a guaranteed fee ,the whole scenario changes.
Morrisey,you are entitled to your opinion,but are you a performer or an organiser? and are you consierring the question in depth, can you not see, that the answer could be dependent on varying situations ,and that a hard and fast rule might need to be flexible

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 07:23 PM

to anonymous guest.
it is not nonsense that people gravitate to packed venues and avoid empty ones, neither is it nonsense to say that the more bar takings and more people are in the club the happier the publican is., neither is it nonsense to say that folk clubs are there at the good will of the pub management.
it is a mistake to have a hard and fast rule that is not flexible, most important is that it is all sorted before a contract is signed or agreed to.
HAS ANYONE EVER EXPERIENCED A BOOKED BAND WANTING TO ALLOW IN 14 PEOPLE?I have never heard of it and i have been involved in folk music since 1966.
as i said, if the band were playing for door takings, if they insist on it they are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 04:46 AM

I agree about the "flexibility" argument and also doubt if the 14 guests scenario would actually arise but it does no harm to consider the possibility.

Not all folk clubs are held in pubs. EFC is presently based in an Arts Centre with very limited bar facilities although drink can be purchased from another part of the building if one is prepared to walk there. So, drink sales are not particularly important as regards the club being allowed to use the venue.

Folk clubs come in all shapes and sizes and visiting artists should take this into account if they have the wish or need to perform there. They shouldn't expect all the extra privet eggs the may receive at a larger concert. Of course, if a club actively seeks out a particular performer or band, that's a slightly different matter. They may need to make concessions then.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 04:52 AM

" Extra privileges they may receive" I meant to say. :-)

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 04:55 AM

well that's that problem solved.....now back to thinking about the meaning of life....!

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 05:45 AM

It has to be entirely down to the individual club in discussion with the guest(s)

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 05:57 AM

Most of the clubs in which I play, and one one that I help to run, there's no admission fee. There's a collection at half time with a jug, sometimes with a recommended donation. So - free to get in, costly to get out!

In that situation it's not always possible to tell who's a guest's friend, who's a friend of a friend, etc. People just put money in the pot or they don't. Our guests understand the payment basis before they agree to perform, as I do as a performer.

The Question, in that case, doesn't reallt arise - it's an honour system.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 06:05 AM

I take it Good Soldier S. knows Murray McLeod well enough to be able to describe him as a Scotsman with stereo-type traits?
An uncalled for cheap shot imo and totally off the mark to boot.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 08:24 AM

"I take it Good Soldier S. knows Murray McLeod well enough to be able to describe him as a Scotsman with stereo-type traits?"
I called him a scotsman which he is, as for streo tye traits where did i say that?
guest dtm you are a troll, another fact

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 09:17 AM

Not trolling at all. I read your post again and to me there was no reason to include the Scotsman reference other than to infer he was mean. If that wasn't the case, I apologise.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 10:58 AM

Hi Murray,
I am still reeling from the bad news about Paddy Bort. Edinburgh is a brilliant club. Are you taking up the reins, if so can I wish you all the luck in the world.
kind regards
Nick

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 12:38 PM

I am a Scotsman, if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 01:03 PM

I am a mixture if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Question for UK Folk Club organisers.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 01:17 PM

yeh the cloven feet gave you away really