The dreaded dance syndrome

Subject: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Auxiris
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 04:45 AM

Hello, everyone. Spent some time this morning reading the comments about which songs are banned in various clubs. In my part of the world (eastern France), there are no folk clubs to go to. We started one in Nancy a few years back that stumbled through its first year then faded away miserably, mostly because no one sings and even instrumental music is not highly regarded, at least as something to listen to. There is a large yearly gathering in March known as the " Giboulées de mars ", but that is devoted to " dance " music and thus dancers only and, though there might be a token concert, it is inevitably followed by a " bal folk " with a local dance band. I know that this may sound as if I were spitting in the soup, since we could be totally deprived of any kind of folk music, after all, but it is too bad that people here seem to think that traditional music(s) are only intended to be danced to. Any

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Jacob Bloom
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 09:51 AM

If people there accept traditional dance music, look at it as an opportunity to be grabbed.

How about starting a monthly dance with traditional music? That would get the music played, help develop your local musicians, and give people the opportunity to come and listen to it, whether they wanted to dance or not.

All of our local dances have a break in the middle. You could have one featured performer do a short set in the middle of the dance (or at the beginning, or end.) That would give people a chance to hear the songs, and start developing an audience for them.

Bon chance.

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Auxiris
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 10:04 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, but the problem is not a lack of monthly or even weekly dances (in some areas), but that the music is regarded as ONLY fit to be danced to, certainly not listened to.

Impossible to get folks to sit down long enough to LISTEN to anything, let alone SONGS, for crying out loud. When we were trying to run the folk club I spoke of, I heard people say that they thought it was boring to listen to someone play and/or sing and then they'd get up and leave.

I've also noticed that there is a disturbing trend amongst the local dance bands: they all have repertoires that they regard as theirs and theirs alone. Heaven help the dance band that dares to play a tune played by another band!

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From:
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 10:56 AM

A dance of course is a different sort of experience than a concert--for us, the States, it is much regretted that there is no longer a custom of dancing.

I would suggest that you begin by having singers perform a few songs with the dance band--the people interested only in dance will not leave and you will offer something for people who enjoy the singing for its own sake--

Then, you may begin to plan small get-togethers with the people who like songs--the key to this is that you have to find your audience and build it up, a little bit at a time-

You cannot expect that, because there is a large audience for dance, that you can automatically expect them to sit down and listen to folksinging--but, if there is an audience for dancing, it is quite likely that, with a little work and little time, you can build up an audience for singing and other music, as well--

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Bert
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 11:20 AM

I think that the States has some of the most active folk dance communities in the world. With several traditional, and derived forms of dance.

In most cities one can find modern square dancing and often traditional square dancing, contra dancing and clogging. With modern square dancing alone, there are many more clubs than there are folk song clubs. Then there's a lot of other dancing which is not generally thought of as folk, such as country dancing, tap, ballet, ballroom and so on.

There are also groups that do 'borrowed' dancing such as morris, balkan, and other international dancing. And that's apart from the ethnic communities which do dances from their respective countries of origin.

Bert.

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Jacob Bloom
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 11:41 AM

Another possibility is to have your music session before the start of the dance. You may or may not want to offer discounted admission to the dance to the people who come to the music session as well. Either way, the person whose name is missing above was right in saying that it takes a long time to develop an audience.

You can also try to start a regular session in your living room. Start by inviting the people who used to come to the folk club, and encourage them to bring friends. Expect that you will need to make a lot of phone calls before each session, to remind people that it is happening and to encourage them to come.

I don't know what to do about the bands that claim ownership of tunes. If it's the local custom, it might be pointless to fight it.

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 11:47 AM

I see from today's press that Welsh schools are introducing traditional clog dancing as an alternative exercise to usual sports.
In a few years time no doubt there will be touring companies of Afondance!
:o)
RtS

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:35 PM

Auxiris: From my experience of French type dances, at festivals in England, I can't see singing in the intervals as fitting in too well.

I'd have thought that an alternative way would be to have a singing room away from the dance hall. That's the way singing finds a space in the Fleadh Ceoil, upstairs from the wild music people singing Sean Nos in a separate bar.

In France I'd have thought you might do that, opening it both to traditional folk singing and the chansonnier tradition.

The other thing that occurs is, do people in France ever have Cajun dances? Because of course all the cajun bands I've seen use songs with the dancing. Enormous fun, but also it might help people think of singing as something that they might try some time.

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 07:08 PM

Auxiris, I'm also in France, in the cultural desert known as Normandy! The traditional music of this area is widely regarded as just history, and gets dragged out at mechouis and the like, where the dancers shuffle around in circles for half an hour then disappear...Not the case in Brittany, where there is a lively and continuing tradition. Bit too far away to nip down for a Saturday night though. However, the other 'dreaded syndrome', the Irish Pub, rears its head here and there is great regard and enthusiasm for Irish music, audiences rarely noticing if you slip in Scottish, English or whatever as well. Sometimes, at our far and few sessions, our Norman members will start to play the Norman tunes - and everyone, young and old, rise as one, link little fingers and shuffle around in circles - after all that's what you do to those tunes!! Norman songs (rather monotonous and interminable), on the other hand are guaranteed to bring the session to a grinding halt and cause the juke box to be switched on.
Everyone else - France is a large country and what applies to one region doesn't necessarily hold in another - regional differences are maybe more pronounced here than in many other countries. Here, in rural Normandy, everyone goes to bed at 9pm so they can be up to milk the cows. Not a joke - we have tried to start sessions in towns around us, saying we'll bring at least 20 or so people, and the bar proprietors answer 'but we close at 8.30'. There are many wonderful things about this country, but many very frustrating elements, too!
Re. Cajun, not a lot of takers here. People won't go to an event unless they know what to expect; non-folkies I've spoken to here have said (if they've heard of it) that's it's old-fashioned, &/or American. Which seems to be an OK thing if it's rock music or McDonald's, but...
There are, around here, several bands doing French Canadian stuff, which is currently very popular, but it takes a while for the word to spread. Meanwhile... no bands playing Irish, great demand, so that's what we're doing (the new band-without-a-name, see previous thread!). Which will be primarily a listening band, though we'll be delighted if dancing happens too. Fiddler's gone to Japan to tour, she's released a CD with a Japanese chap there so work will continue when she returns. Sorry for rambling!
Jo

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Auxiris
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 06:34 AM

Just to clear things up a little: when I said we were trying to run a folk club a few years ago and that it faded away miserably, perhaps I should have come right out and said it no longer exists for several reasons. First off, the local we had (a room in an MJC, Maison des Jeunes et de la Culture/Youth and Culture Centre) got burned out and then torn down for what is euphemistically known as "urban renewal". We moved the club to a local bar, but it only survived there for a few months due to the ambiant noise, even though the people running the bar tried to help us keep the noise level down. The organisation Giboulées (who put on the yearly do) were even willing to help fund us a little bit so we could have space in another MJC and keep going, but the "professional" musicians belonging to Giboulées raised such a fuss on the grounds that a folk club would keep people from attending their concerts that the idea got dropped. I should add that someone who was running an Irish music session in Nancy at the time did a pretty good job of badmouthing us as well. We stuck it out for a year, but as they say, push came to shove.

I should also point out that we have nothing to do with organising any local dances and thus do not have a say about what happens at them. We have in fact suggested some of the very things spoken of above, only to be met by blank stares and remarks like: "No, we can't do that; people won't like it".

Jo, thanks for your comments. Looks like rural Normandy isn't lots of fun either and is much like rural Lorraine. Interestingly enough, there is also a huge demand for Irish music over this way as well, so I guess you could say there's hope. Unfortunately, there are several persons and/or groups who seem to think that Irish music is their private little oyster as well. Sigh.

At the present time, we've teamed up with a couple of storytellers and play a bit of music in between stories to give them a breather. . . and at least the people who come to listen to stories also listen to music. It ain't a folk club and we don't play a lot, but it's certainly better than nuthin'.

cheers, Auxiris

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: MTed
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 12:45 PM

Auxiris,

I love your story about the folk club--folk music is supposed to have a universality about it, but instead, it brings out petty jealousies, territorialism, and becomes totally political--

I do not know how the law works in France, but here in the States it is possible sue for libel and slander--I would have gotten two great big constables and served papers on your Irish music person in Nancy, right in the middle of a the session, and perhaps right in the middle of a solo--and made a few calls to the local TV news people ahead of time to let them know what was happening--

After that, your "professional musicians" would, most likely, have raised no further objections to your activities--and of course, you would have let many people know about your club--

Of course, this sort of activity is not for everyone, but I believe that if something is important to you, you should not let others slight you--

I believe that you do have an audience for your music, furthermore, I believe that your detractors do too, or they wouldn't be giving you such a hard time--

By the way, my advice is not just an idle suggestion, I have made my entrance, brandishing legal papers, and accompanied by constables and the press, on several occasions when it became necessary--you do not always win, of course, but you do always get your message across--

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 01:23 PM

Hmm.Feuds and rows and gossip are built into any human activity. Bringing the law into folkie ructions seems about as sensible as if we started taking out injunctions against each other on Mudcat because we tread on each others toes from time to time.

Folk clubs and especially sessions spring up and die down for all kinds of reasons. Auxiris's story doesn't sound anyway out of line with the kind of things that happens north of the channel. You just hunt around till you find another bar or whatsoever.

As for the "professionals" - I don't know about France, but over in England the Musicians Union now has a section for folk musicians, with a policy that stands up for amateurs and semi-amateurs. The real battle isn't between amateurs and professionals, it's between live musicians and canned music.

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: selby
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 01:30 PM

What a wonderful thread I myself have been involved in running a folk club and a morris side. It facinates me to think that wherever you may be in the world as far as "folk music/dance" is concerned there is a difficulty in getting the two to meet. I have no answers apart from what you do enjoy and there will be a kindred spirit somwhere the difficulty is finding them. Keith

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From:
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 04:33 PM

McGrath,

Gossip, rows, and feuds and the reason that laws exist in the first place--not that they often provide the protection that is intended-

I will allow as I seem a bit litigious--and perhaps a bit of a hothead--I like to play and teach music, and I don't even mind that from time to time, I have to produce my own concerts or start my own classes--I do mind when people go out of there way to prevent my stuff from happening--

I have recently moved away from nearly twenty years residence what is laughingly referred to as a major American city, where the artistic/cultural community (including folklore/folklife academics, artists, dance companies, theater groups, and public broadcasting outlets, and funders) were in continuous turf wars--

I created a class for blues guitarists at the performing arts school where I was teaching, and my executive director called me one day to tell me that someone from the Folklore Department at nearby prestigious University had called to demand that I be immediately replaced with one of their graduate students, because I was not "entitled" to teach blues guitar--

I stayed on, but all of our school's special events announcements were suddenly dropped from the University community radio station, never to re-appear--

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 05:06 PM

I'd just LOVE to have known what "graduate student" was qualified to teach "blues guitar". DON'T GET ME STARTED, OH WISE ANON. ONE!
Rick, who can be as snotty as hell when degrees are more valuable than experience!

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Cleoma
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 05:17 PM

This is an interesting thread, I haven't followed it from the beginning, so someone else may have already said this, but -- I think that one reason why singing gets short shrift when there is a dance going on may harken back to the days when the dance bands performed without the benefit of a sound system. It's hard enough to be heard playing the fiddle in a room full of dancers, but try singing!! Some traditions (Cajun is on) have a vocal style that's designed to be heard in such conditions, but even in Cajun music there are unaccompanied ballads which would never be sung in the context of a dance. Also, my own experience as a dance musician has been that people listen in an entirely different way when they are dancing (vs. listening and not dancing). Dancers pay attention to the music differently and I just don't think that singing is a big part of it. This may be because the dancers are moving and hopefully looking at each other, but therefore NOT looking at the musicians. Personally, when I hear good singing, I want to watch the singer, or just close my eyes and let the song take me somewhere else. Can't do that for very long when dancing, otherwise there's a pile-up on the dance floor!

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: MTed
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 11:31 PM

Rick,

I am afraid the "wise anon one" was not-so-wise me, still having cookie problems with my Netscape--

As to who the graduate student, and their would-be sponsor were, I will not say, as the concerned parties are still living, and still sucking up to "Folk music informants" at being obsequious and condescending while introducing them in places like the Smithsonian Festival or in academically proper Folklife Centers--(What Fred Blassie has been known to call "Pencil-Necked Geeks")--

At the risk of sounding my own horn, I will mention that representatives of the African-American community that surrounded the university community came to my class one day to informally express appreciation for class--no one seemed to care that I was a white guy, and no one commented about the fact that there was no Folklore degree on the wall--

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Auxiris
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 05:07 AM

Lots of very interesting comments from eveyone. The thought of taking some kind of legal or very "public" revenge had never crossed our minds, the series of events having saddened us to the point where we were completely immobilised for a time. Yes, there are plenty of slander and libel laws here in France, but we couldn't prove that the person running Irish music sessions was badmouthing us, even though we knew very well it was them, what they were saying, etc., etc. Forgot to mention the other insidious thing that he did: waited until the sessions were really popular, then suddenly took his friends elsewhere and badmouthed the bar owner! So, we weren't the only ones. . .

All we wanted to do when we started the folk club was to provide an alternative for people who like folk music but weren't interested in dancing, were more of a "listening" audience and who might have been attracted to the idea of trying out performing and/or improving their skills on stage. We didn't have the intention of competing with anyone else's events, but that was the way it was interpreted, unfortunately.

The professional musician whom we ran up against at the Giboulées meeting came right out and said we were trying to steal their audience. He was under the impression that we were professional musicians (which we are not) and as soon as the question of allowing us a bit of money to keep the club going until it could stand on its own and break even, he hit the roof because he assumed other professionals were getting money that he wasn't getting. The saddest thing about that whole business is that his son, who is a talented uilleann piper, has picked up his father's attitude, though he certainly never hesitated to drop by---not to play, but to leave fliers about their next gig (elsewhere of course) on folk club nights.

Keith, I think we have pretty much done as you suggested in finding kindred spirits in our storyteller friends and the people who come to listen to them. I guess all we have to do now is develop the idea. . . By the way, I hope you are well and your job is still secure.

cheers,

Auxiris

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: MTed
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 11:09 AM

Auxiris,

I feel like coming over there and bouncing a few heads around!! If the musician was such a fool as to speak out like that, I would have simply said that people listen to what they like best, and that he had no right to force people to listen to him when they really wanted to listen to something else--as for his son, you can probably guess where I would have put the fliers that he dropped off--

When you say that you were saddened and immobilized, it doesn't suprise me, these sort of people wanted nothing more that to immobilize you because it kept the stage for them--and they didn't believe that they could keep their audience any other way than to eliminate anyone else that wanted to perform--

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: Auxiris
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 11:25 AM

We did say what we thought at the time, something very close to what you say as a matter of fact and then walked out of the meeting. Yes, it is quite sad when people waste their precious time harrasing others when we could all be making music of various kinds and for different reasons without throwing up roadblocks in front of each other. There's more than enough room for all of us, I think.

Maybe someday there will be another adventurous person who will try to start a folk club in Nancy. If so, we'll certainly participate. In the meantime, we'll help out our storyteller friends and play out when we can.

Subject: RE: The dreaded dance syndrome
From: stupidbdhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybetter
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 05:49 PM

At the ceilis where I alternately play and dance,the waltzes are often sung. This brings a nice touch, and at least allows for a few songs at the end of the night. Also, a good number of people come to listen anyways. There are lots of ways one art slips into another. If you've ever seen Arlo Guthrie, Utah Phillips os Rosalie Sorrels, you know that they are more storytellers than singers. But hhow many people would cram into clubs to see them if they were advertised as such? On the subject of musicians fighting over tunes, be warned: there are some recent storries going around about ASCAP going around harassing sessions and even campfires at festivals! Be careful before you call that next Liz Caroll tune at your local pub. I don't know how much they could do in a situation like that, but at least it could be a real nuisance. Rich