Handling different versions of a tune

Subject: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 10:52 AM

Having learned to play the Adderbury version of 'Constant Billy' I now find myself in a position of having to play the Headington version. Try as I may I cannot get my fingers to behave any differently than what they have learned on accordion but I find I can play the new version on concertina.

Anyone else experience anything like this or is it just me?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 10:56 AM

Take it slow - note by note - until each note is in the right place and stays in the right place. Then your fingers will start to remember it.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 02:09 PM

That's the trouble, Will. They remember Adderbury and will not go to Headington :-) Condertina fingers must be less set in their ways!

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 02:13 PM

I recommend a brain transplant. had one a few years ago and it fkefb;efbejkn;jn;jnef

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 03:03 PM

:-D

Remember Joe 90? A pair of them glasses would come in very handy!

DtG

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Marje
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 04:22 PM

It's the unlearning that's the problem. You have to unlearn the original version before you can play it on the same instrument; playing a different version on a different instrument is just like learning a new tune, which is often easier.

It's the same if you try to learn a different version of the words of a song, perhaps so in order to sing it with a partner or an ensemble. The original version has to be deleted from your memory, otherwise it keeps interrupting and confusing you.

Marje

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 04:51 PM

That's spot on for me, Marje! I can use that as an excuse from now on - I am a good at learning but a bad unlearner :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 05:21 PM

One way round it may be to use a different key for each variant, so your fingers have two completely different sequences to remember. Our chief musician swears by it: eg Princess Royal

G Bidford
Dm Adderbury
Gm Bampton double jig

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 07:11 PM

I just looked these up, as I haven't got either in my head.

For me the Headington one looks intrinsically more musically logical - I'd find the Adderbury one a right pig to remember. BUT it's got words. Maybe the Headington one does too? If so, having those in your head will be an ENORMOUS help.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: RTim
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 07:47 PM

The notes don't really matter to the dancers - as long as there are not too many for the steps danced.
Confidence in the tune is more important than the notes - and the gaps between the notes........they can be very importnat.

Tim Radford - Adderbury Squire & Foreman 1974 to 1996...........

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 08:03 PM

They have different repeat structures. It's common for that to be the way tunes vary (I can think of four often-played session tunes in the Edinburgh area that do it), and it's really hard for a player to cope with. Dancers might not notice the odd bum note but they WILL notice if the band is playing two different sections of a tune simultaneously.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: mg
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 08:52 PM

do what i do..stomp your feet and say no..it goes this way..you have it all wrong...

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: RTim
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 08:57 PM

Yes - In Adderbury it is two A Music but only One B Music - in Headington the Chorus - B Music - is repeated..........

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 09:32 PM

Do you have any online links to the Adderbury and the Headington versions? Incidentally, what are they? Are they regional versions or from different books?

I play the tune in G and learned it from an old concertina player whose name escapes me now.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: RTim
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 09:42 PM

They are both "villages" in Oxfordshire that happen to use similar versions of a tune for dances........The styles of the dance, although similar are different Choreographically....following patterns that define those styles.
That is a complex mouthful.
The tune Constant Billy was used by many "villages" in the Morris traditions that existed in the English South Midlands area - and they differed because of the style and format of the dance performed in the villages.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 01:31 AM

I have the music in Mally's Cotswold Morris tune book but to hear them and see the dance I find the best resource is YouTube. I am sure the dots must be about somewhere on t'interweb if anyone wants them.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 04:58 AM

Here you, tidied up a bit from Morris Ring versions found through the ABC tunefinder...

X:1
T:Constant Billy, Headington 2
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=120
S:RKS
A:Headington
P:A(AB)4
K:G
P:A
D|G>Bd B>GB|c>Bc A>FD|B>AG E>DC|D>EF G2:|
P:B
D|B>cd e>cB|A>Bc d>BG|B>cd e>cB|A>Bc d2
D|G>Bd B>GB|c>Bc A>FD|B>AG E>DC|D>EF G2:|

X:2
T:Constant Billy, Adderbury
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=120
S:CJS
A:Adderbury
P:A(AB)6
K:G %Transposed from A
P:A
  D     |G2d B<GB|c2A F2D|B>AG E2D|DEF G2:|
P:B
  z     |Bcd e3  |ABc d3 |Bcd  e3 |ABc d2
(3d/e/f/|g2d B>GB|c2A F2D|B>AG E2D|DEF G2||

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 04:58 AM

Try here The Morris Ring

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 05:23 AM

Don't think I've ever played the same version of a tune twice. 😉

Seriously, playing in sessions and learning tunes that way forces you to be flexible. I've never used a tune book to learn a tune, and even copying what you hear on a CD can be restrictive. If the two versions have fundamental differences in structure, there's nothing for it but to treat them as two tunes and give your memory a good stern talking to so that you'll always play the right one for your gig. If it's just phrases in the tune, or a different ending (repeating the first bars of the tune rather than a take on a phrase in the B part for example), listen to what's going on and go with the flow!

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Johnny J
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 06:10 AM

Agree with Steve, basically.

You just have to be able to adapt in these situations. No point in getting grumpy and complaining "they're doing it wrong" even although sometimes that's obviously the case...I can usually spot a different setting from obviously incorrect playing where it has just been picked up wrongly (We're all guilty of that, by the way).

Sometimes, it is a good idea to think of different settings as different tunes as Steve says. Often they may have different titles , in any case, even although the tune is bascially the same.

Different versions and settings can throw you, of course, as Jack says but if you play with certain people fairly regularly, you can usually anticipate what is going to happen. For instance, "The Barren Rocks of Aden" as I play it has four parts...I believe it was the Bobby Macleod setting.... although many people only play parts One and Two. However, in some sessions, they'll play Part one and then a hybrid of parts two and three... Very strange.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 06:31 AM

I've had exactly that experience with exactly that tune, Johnny! 😂

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 06:39 AM

Fully agree with all that and to be honest I can play the Addebury version while the other musician plays the Headington version anyway :-) It was just one of those things I wondered about while contemplating the cosmic conciousness of all things one night oh yea man...

:D tG

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 09:17 AM

I play recorders and flute (occasionally), starting with recorders, which come in C or F. Flutes come in G and D. Eventually I realized that although I was unaware of it, the weight of the instrument was telling my brain how to finger it.

My brain was thinking, "This instrument is heavy, therefore it's an alto in F." But no, it was actually a flute in D.

Therefore, Dave, I think you are doing the right and logical thing. Accordion and concertina feel different and weigh different amounts, and it's a good idea to assign different versions to different instruments.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 01:06 PM

Jack Campin and Snuffy. thanks for the links. I've put the two versions into Musescore files. If anyone wants a copy send me a PM with an email address and I will attach copies to a reply. I've also got a solo finger style guitar version in notation and tab as a Musescore file if anyone wants a copy of that.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 01:34 PM

Not so much unlearning as remembering who you are with and what way they play a certain tune. I can think of several tunes where different people have different versions: sometimes it only amounts to one or 2 notes but if you play the "other" version, there can be a horrible discord! (I'll mention Margaret's Waltz, Stronsay Waltz and Inisheer for starters.)

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 01:54 PM

I try to play with my brain rather than my fingers, and there are only a few tunes that I keep to just one instrument in one size/key.

I tried to teach a tune earlier this week using an instrument I'd never played it on before - it was the klezmer "Moldavian Hora" as played by Belf on C clarinet in a recording from 1908. Normally I use an Italian ocarina for it - aggressive tone that matches the clarinet quite well. But what I had was a tenor recorder. I found myself using virtually identical tricks - in this situation, not a good idea, since I was trying to teach it to a fiddler and I couldn't work out how to scale down the twiddly mordents and Rhapsody-in-Blue-like slides (easy on any woodwind) to something she could play.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 31 Mar 17 - 05:16 PM

Another difference, minor if you're quick to notice, in Princess Royal et al is whether it's half time in the middle. In my experience strict english sessions usually do, but mixed sessions don't. But I'm not a Morris person, being of the two left feet and wonky knees persuasion, so perhaps someone can elaborate on whether this practice varies between the various local Dance traditions?

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 04:01 AM

Often a "generic" version of the tune (rather than from a particular tradition) will be played in a session, but the person who is leading the tune may call "Slows" at the appropriate time if they are desired.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 04:39 AM

Similar issue: I have never yet heard anyone do the original five-part version of The Athol Highlanders in a session (the extra part comes third and is half the length of the others). You could probably get away with it if you had a set of Highland pipes and everybody else was using guitars and fiddles, but otherwise getting everyone to listen and follow would be impossible.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 11:28 AM

The 'half time' bit (Slows) bit depends whether it is a hankie dance or a stick dance. And I think some tunes are used for both (but I'm not a Morrisman either.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: RTim
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 12:39 PM

I know of no Stick Dance that uses "Slowed" music - it is only used in Hanky dances.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 02:40 PM

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Am I right in thinking that some tunes are used for both?

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 04:13 PM

"I have never yet heard anyone do the original five-part version of The Athol Highlanders in a session "

Perhaps that's Darwinism- the extra half part doesn't work for most musicians. Originality isn't really a recommendation.

Subject: RE: Handling different versions of a tune
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 06:38 PM

Depends on what you want to do with it. It wasn't written as a jig but as a gathering tune. Breaking into a very different interlude works well for that.