BS: Trump Korean War II

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 06:02 PM

Anyone have the remotest idea WTF he is on about?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:09 PM

Oh dear ............ another old soldier lying through his arse.

It must be something to do with them ex military.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 03:55 PM

Fascinasting, but somewhat irrelevant, Col. Blimp.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:41 PM

Pity your reasoned analysis by the 94 year old veteran didn't twig on to the following glaring errors in his little missive:

1: Since the Iraq War (2003 - which a Labour Government took us into) we have had:

Labour in power from 2003 until 2010 - 7 years
A Coalition Government from 2010 to 2015 - 5 years
A Conservative Government from 2015 to present - 2 years

2: The UK has no formal alliance or defence agreement with the Philippines.

3: The UK, France and the USA tried extremely hard in the Security Council of the UN to curb and restrain what was happening in Syria on each and every occasion it was Russia and China that vetoed any resolution being tabled and voted on.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM

What do we take notice of I wonder? An eloquent and well reasoned analysis from an intelligent 94 year old author / WW2 RAF veteran or the meaningless rantings of a known bigot who tells us he is a socialist and then votes Tory?

Tough choice.

Not.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:00 PM

Chilling stuff indeed, Dave. We're fortunate to have an eloquent old vet like that still around to tell his story.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:44 PM

Drivel, in the unlikely event of a coming war it is many times more likely to be a civil war than an attempt at world domination.

Calm down, go for a walk, all will be well. Another ten years will see most of us "oot"......the human race must learn to grow up....FAST.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 10:07 AM

Chilling stuff.

I have never wanted someone to be wrong as much as this.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:47 AM

Yesterdays papers, telling yesterdays news.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:25 AM

NK has backed down from its threat to launch missiles towards Guam.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM

Please don't nuke us North Korea
A song by Weird Al

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 02:32 PM

You have yet to give an example of my supporting terrorism - you invented it and included it here
I asked for a substantiation of your claim that I supportd terrorim to bring about change - still waiting on that one
The longer you keep this up the more you confirm your support for fascists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 02:21 PM

I don't hate people just because they are rich Don.....I know some very nice people who are extremely rich.

You have me confused with Jim who sees being rich as the root of all evil......mostly envy I'm afraid, if we were honest we would all like to be rich, that is why capitalism has survived so long, someday, someway our numbers are gonna come up........we deceive ourselves, but Jim's brand of socialists are blameless, whiter than the driven snow :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM

Greg Ake knows that Trump is the most wealthy magnanimous man in the world.

btw Trump is asking courts for millions of IP addresses of those who organize protests against Trump. Lets give him Ake's IP.

The DOJ may give him all he wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:47 PM

As far as I know [Trump] has never given any indication that he is a racist.

Jesus wept.

Well, Ache, you apparently know jack shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:35 PM

I suppose, like Stu, you are too gutless to apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:34 PM

It wasn't hard to find.

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:40 AM

Most sane people are against colour prejudice Jim, why should you think that President Donal-John should be any different? As far as I know he has never given any indication that he is a racist.
In another thread you attempt to excuse violence and terrorism in the cause of systemic change....well you and I are about the only people on this forum who seem to want systemic change, but we have very different views on how it should be achieved.

Violence is self defeating, I would never excuse terrorism in the pursuit of change as you do. It would be immoral and ineffective.

Systemic Change can only be achieved by unity and evolution driven by necessity. It will NOT be a "choice".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:31 PM

I was referring to YOUR support for terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:26 PM

"Jim, I did not equate the skirmish in Charlottesville with terrorism,"
Yes you did - what has your reference to "terrorism" got to do with this discussion if that is not what you were referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 12:45 PM

Jim, I did not equate the skirmish in Charlottesville with terrorism, I was referring to your support of IRA terrorism and lately you have become an apologist for Jihadi terrorism.


This forum seems to contain an over representation of people who require spectacles or a literacy course.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM

"If they shoot at us that's called war, then its game on"
General Grievous Gravy. aka Secretary Gen. Mattis

Do unarmed missiles hitting 20 miles from Guam qualify?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:19 AM

<>I>that should suffice for any rational person

Precisely. [emphasis mine]

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:35 AM

Incidentally Ake
Your equating the demonstrations in Charlottesville with "terrorism" is outrageous, but it is handy as an indication of whose side you are on
Would you describe those who took to the streets to oppose The Blackshirts as "terrorists" - if not, why not?
I don't really expect an answer to this, but your silence will suffice as one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:22 AM

I still find it extremely rude to change someone's name because of some infantile idea you have about his half Scottish heritage.

He was named Donald John by his parents that should suffice for any rational person, especially by someone who obviously supports him and his politics.

(If Scotland want to claim him as their own however, they are welcome to him)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:16 AM

"why should you think that President Donal-John should be any different? "
Paerhaps because he is not sane?
Like it or not (most sane people do not - you, apparently do) - he is President of the United States)
It is his job as President to condemn racism outright, particularly when it takes to the streets - he has prevaricated and twisted and finally, has been embarrassed into making a still half-arsed statement
The people he has been forced into condemning form a large section of support for his populism and extremist rhetoric - that's why he has hesitated in condemning them
"Violence is self defeating,"
What an insane statement - of course it isn't otherwise we would be living in a world without war
Violence is an inevitable part of the world we live in and until we change that world, it will remain the case.
I have never at any time condoned terrorism, I point out that it is inevitable in certain circumstances - America uses terrorism in peacetime and at war, Britain has used and supported terrorism in wartime and has backed terrorism when they deemed necessary in situations like those in Northern Ireland - waterboarding and other forms of torture, for instance.
As a pacifist (sort of), I abhor all forms of violence, but that doesn't mean I don't recognise its inevitability and am prepared to accept it as the lesser of two evils
Terrorism (aka "resistance") helped defeat Nazism in Eorope - it hapled end Apartheid in South Africa - it brought about the downfall of Empires and won independence for many countries
Your last sentence is utter gibberish unless you are prepared to lay out in detailed terms who social terms is to be brought about
To work for the betterment of humanity is to provoke a violent response from those who wish to maintain their dominance of society - the eternal dilemma of all pacifists (sort of or otherwise)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:03 AM

And I see he's acquired a hyphen now. "Donal-John." Bwahahahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:56 AM

Donald Trump's Long History of Racism-Vox

From the Article:

"1989: In a controversial case that's been characterized as a modern-day lynching, four black teenagers and one Latino teenager — the "Central Park Five" — were accused of attacking and raping a jogger in New York City. Trump immediately took charge in the case, running an ad in local papers demanding, "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY. BRING BACK OUR POLICE!" The teens' convictions were later vacated after they spent seven to 13 years in prison, and the city paid $41 million in a settlement to the teens. But Trump in October said he still believes they're guilty, despite the DNA evidence to the contrary."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:40 AM

Most sane people are against colour prejudice Jim, why should you think that President Donal-John should be any different? As far as I know he has never given any indication that he is a racist.
In another thread you attempt to excuse violence and terrorism in the cause of systemic change....well you and I are about the only people on this forum who seem to want systemic change, but we have very different views on how it should be achieved.

Violence is self defeating, I would never excuse terrorism in the pursuit of change as you do. It would be immoral and ineffective.

Systemic Change can only be achieved by unity and evolution driven by necessity. It will NOT be a "choice".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:05 AM

Trump has backed down and condemned Nazism, the White Supremists and the KKK - who says demonstrations don't work
As far as I understand, he has not associated his comments with the events in Charlotteville
"Racism is evil and those who cause vilolence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, noo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans"
He refuses to describe the truck attack as an act of terrorism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 03:33 AM

"The only case I wanted to make is that, whatever else he may be guilty of, Trump's views on NK nukes are in line with all his predecessors"
You don't have to "prove" this Keith - nobody has ever argued that any administration has ever opposed nuclear weapons, on the contrary, they have all supported them and Britain has always followed that line slavishly
That's what the Aldermaston marches and CND were about - the rejection of nuclear weapons.
The advent of Trump and his megalomaniac approach to leadership has turned the spotlight back on the necessity to abandon reliance on this form of defence and replace it with diplomacy - Trump has proven himself totally incapable of doing that.
Your 'Dr Strangelove' type arguments are helpful as an example of Trump's non-thinking approach to a serious situation - even down to nuclear weapons in suitcases in order to bomb London - science fiction at its most crass (I know - I was a devotee once).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 02:38 PM

Its not just that Trump's views on NK nukes are in line with all his predecessors and with his rival for the Presidency, its inconfuckingcievably convenient just when he needs an ultimate distraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM

Stu,
You're using the idea some bloke's going to check a thermonuclear warhead into a lorry, drive it half way around the work undetected, cross the channel and detonate it to support an argument for a pre-emptive nuclear strike?

No. Certainly not a thermonuclear device.
A basic device could be fitted into a suitcase. They were fitted into 155mm shells.

It is quite feasible to smuggle such a device into a country.
NK recently smuggled VX, the most deadly of all nerve agents, into Indonesia.
NK has ICBM missiles to deliver its warheads.

Jim,
You keep claiming to have proved something so far you have "proved" nothing.

The only case I wanted to make is that, whatever else he may be guilty of, Trump's views on NK nukes are in line with all his predecessors and with his rival for the Presidency.
I have shown that to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:04 AM

Reporter: What would Armageddon look like in Korea?

General McMasterace: Well it would not be the holocaust people imagine. 10 or 20 million in collateral damage tops. There would be no Armageddon.
It would be more like a kitty cataclysm.



Remember if you want any WWIII jokes you better write them now.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 07:09 AM

The smallest suitcase nuke is under 75 lbs. For the largest you would have to talk to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 06:48 AM

I'd check the wife's packing if I were you professor, you never know, reds under the bed and all that. If you see her hitching a artillery piece onto the back of the car you might be in trouble.

Ha ha ha, thanks for the giggle !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 06:31 AM

"UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile."

You're using the idea some bloke's going to check a thermonuclear warhead into a lorry, drive it half way around the work undetected, cross the channel and detonate it to support an argument for a pre-emptive nuclear strike?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:58 AM

I agree, but NK is a special case.
Their possession of such weapons makes millions of people hostage to an irrational dictator"
At the risk of.....
Israel has had the bomb for some time now - it is religion driven and is ruled by an extremist right-wing regime of the type that has only been kept out of the International law courts by US vetoes (pretty well as Syria is being kept out of the courts by Chinese and Russian vetoes)
It has a history of human rights abuses, including massacres of unarmed civilians
It has shown itself willing to put nuclear weapons in the hands of a fascist state as proved by its attempts to arm the South African Regime
It is permanently under accusation of ethnic cleansing
And to top it all - its Head of State is under investigation for corruption.
As I said - it has the bomb
America has a bomb, has a long history of both security and actual military interference in the affairs of other states - its security forces have a long history of espionage, sabotage and murder.
It has used similar weapons on two sizeable cities, causing death and deformation to generations of children
As unstable as North Korea might be, it couldn't begin to compete with the records of these two beauties
It is the existence of the bomb that is the problem - not who possesses it.
If we continue to support its existence we will be sealing the fate of the future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:40 AM

Get this in your suitcase !!


Ha ha ha, love it !!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:33 AM

Rag,
Correct me if I am wrong but Hilary Clinton has never been the president.

She was Obama's Secretary of State and Trump's rival for president.

According to your NY Times piece, Clinton "warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms. "

So all previous administrations have considered a nuclear NK unacceptable, and so would Hillary if she had won.

Rag, do you believe that smuggling does not happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:21 AM

"UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile"

Oh yes I can see it now, right start the truck lads, drive across China, Kazakhstan, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Netherlands.

If you get any trouble at customs nuke 'em !!

Brilliant !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:19 AM

David, London is actually closer to Korea than LA.
Thank you for pointing that out.
I think they would attack US cities first.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:14 AM

"The North Korean Government accused President Clinton today of provoking it with threats of war after he warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms"

Correct me if I am wrong but Hilary Clinton has never been the president.

Other than that please note the use of the word "retaliate"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:08 AM

Rag, opening sentence of your NY Times link.

"The North Korean Government accused President Clinton today of provoking it with threats of war after he warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms. "

What did Hillary Clinton say?

"North Korea's decision to conduct another nuclear test is outrageous and unacceptable.  I strongly condemn this reckless action, which – coupled with its recent series of missile launches – makes clear Pyongyang's determination to develop a deliverable nuclear weapon.  This constitutes a direct threat to the United States, and we cannot and will never accept this."
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/statements/2016/09/09/statement-from-hillary-clinton-on-north-koreas-nuclear-test/

So, not just Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:04 AM

"an" should read "all". Can't you edit posts any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM

San Francisco, London and Sydney are all pretty much the same distance from North Korea.

That should in no way be seen as an endorsement by me of Trump's rhetoric, or indeed Kim Jong Un's.

In my view an existing nuclear powers should be disarming as indicated by Article VI of the NNPT.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:55 AM

while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

I agree, but NK is a special case.
Their possession of such weapons makes millions of people hostage to an irrational dictator in probably the most cruel and repressive regime in the world.

UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile.
If I had family on West Coast USA or Japan I would be worried.

That is not just my view, or just Trump's.
All previous administrations including Obama and Clinton have considered a nuclear NK unacceptable.
All wrong? All uninformed? All hypocrites?

Jeri, I understand I can not make Dave jump through hoops, or apparently even ask him to, but may I be allowed to point out when his assertions are based on no actual knowledge or any evidence?
That they are just a vacuous whim with no basis in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:40 AM

"Jim, Are you really proposing a preemptive strike? KAOH "Clinton did Jim"

Just for clarity Clinton did NOT say the US would use a preemptive strike, he said the US would retaliate.

Everyone can read the report below:

What Clinton Said

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:51 PM

February 9, 1993: The IAEA demands special inspections of two sites that are believed to store nuclear waste. The request is based on strong evidence that North Korea has been cheating on its commitments under the NPT. North Korea refuses the IAEA's request.

March 12, 1993: Amid demands for special inspections, North Korea announces its intention to withdraw from the NPT in three months, citing Article X provisions that allow withdrawal for supreme national security considerations.

April 1, 1993: The IAEA declares that North Korea is not adhering to its safeguards agreement and that it cannot guarantee that North Korean nuclear material is not being diverted for nonpeaceful uses.

June 11, 1993: Following talks with the United States in New York, North Korea suspends its decision to pull out of the NPT just before the withdrawal would have become legally effective. North Korea also agrees to the full and impartial application of IAEA safeguards.

For its part, the United States grants assurances against the threat and use of force, including nuclear weapons. Washington also promises not to interfere with North Korea's internal affairs.

July 19, 1993: After a second round of talks with the United States, North Korea announces in a joint statement that it is "prepared to begin consultations with the IAEA on outstanding safeguards and other issues" and that it is ready to negotiate IAEA inspections of its nuclear facilities. The joint statement also indicates that Pyongyang might consider a deal with the United States to replace its graphite nuclear reactors with light-water reactors (LWRs), which are proliferation resistant.

Late 1993: The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency estimate that North Korea had separated about 12 kilograms of plutonium. This amount is enough for at least one or two nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM

Dave and Backwoodsman, disarming NK is no fantasy. How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?"

No, stop trying to obfuscate and deflect by replying to a question with a question. Answer the question you were asked. Put up, or shut up.

Bet you can't, you wind-bag.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:56 PM

while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

Exactly, Dave. Got it in one.