BS: Trump Korean War II

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM

Perhaps they could take up MINING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM

You DO know the war never officially ended? There was a cease-fire agreement.

In the US, we have this thing called "trash talking" I don't know that N. Koreans understand what that is. If Kim Jong Un does, it's possibly because his buddy is Dennis Rodman, and there's a lot of trash talking in B-Ball.

Also, culturally, there's the whole "saving face" thing. Trump is all about bullying, including ridicule and threats. This pretty much guarantees verbal retaliation by Kim. I'm thinking the bullying is not going to have the desired effect, unless Trump wants Kim to knock that chip off his shoulder... with a nuke. Somebody needs to be the adult and shut up. We expect Trump to? And when we start pulling some people out of S. Korea, and sending others, we can all forget about diplomacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 01:53 PM

"Happy with that?"

No.

You keep reiterating the extent of the problems and asking everyone else what the answers are - obviously so that you can indulge in your standard schoolyard tactic of ad nauseam nit-picking and hole-poking.

For once, let's hear your proposals for a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 03:06 PM

But what about the extraordinary American people?

And what about the asshole American people - like the ones who elected Trump? -

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: meself
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 03:27 PM

I thought 'trash talking' was what low-life thugs do - and low-life thugs who become rich athletes - and tin-pot dictators of tin-pot dictatorships. It's shocking to hear cheap 'trash talk' coming from the most powerful statesman of our ... civilization.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 03:51 PM

What passes for discussion and solution seeking in the halls of power is surprising similar to your own except the dissenting voice is usually unrewarded or absent and the most bold powerful suggestions are praised with words of; strong, powerful, excellent.

CYA yes men and sycophants got where they are by sucking up.
It was less this way in he Obama years but you could still see same f the CYA method.

Gone are the historians save for military input. Gone are the psych experts and replaced with propagandists.
Now we have 100% pure suckupism !*

We have a concentration of white supremacists at the top. This gives rise to the hooded bottom feeders as we are seeing in America this week.

I suggested unification of Chinese, US and Korean interests. Its hard but easier than the unthinkable. What would Jesus do, what would Einstein do, what would Larry the President guy do?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM

I know it's tempting, John, but just ignore him. He's a waste of space for the very reasons you've pinpointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:18 PM

Earlier Akenaton posted "The rational course would be to agree with Keith's analysis and discuss a way forward"

I replied at 07.43 "Perhaps you could elucidate on the analysis, I seem to have missed any analysis"

So I will post a second request Akenaton, please provide a substance to your post of over 8 hours ago, tell us all about the analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:57 PM

Sorry Raggytash, just arrived home from a hospital visit.

Keith has analysed the situation which exists at present rather well, he realises that the problem predates President Donal John by several decades, he also notes that previous presidents have been ineffective in stopping NK producing WMDs including work on the Nuclear option.

NK obviously believes that acquiring these weapons is important for its National security, after the Western actions in Iraq and Libya, but the regime is dangerous and volatile and not to be trusted to safeguard these weapons or their use.
I see a Good cop/Bad cop scenario over NK evolving in Washington which may produce results

Keith has asked for views on the way forward.....an interesting subject for discussion, only to be pissed on by would be satirists like Stevie boy, who's "satire" excludes the main ingredient....wit.

Still, I suppose a man must work with the tools at his disposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:57 PM

Do a search of Charlottesville VA today.

Trump denounced the events in a bored voice with a tepid remark.

You will see our KKK, alt right and Nazis.

None of my passionate remarks are hypothetical anymore.
This is the beginning of my warnings come true. This is not even the end of the beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: more war lyrics
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 11:24 PM

Good times end times
as events turn worse
its too late to learn
if you worship the curse
still the war was golden for some
like the man with the hearse
that followed the drum
Fighting was futile
Our country turned feudal
we suffered Immortal crimes
that killed the globe and time
At first family kingdoms were few
but descended To tribes
Maybe its lazy
To think we're all free
Our leader hadn't a clue
you won't believe what you see
Until it happens to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:24 AM

Every time I see that "Donal John" nonsense I want to puke. Let's hope that is what turns up soon on his headstone.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 02:03 AM

"Keith has analysed the situation which exists at present rather well,
Keith has done nothing of the sort
He has asked a series of vacuous questions and ignored the answers he got - he does that a lot - he has no interest in what others have to say - on anything - he's here to win prizes.
It's interesting to see how the few Trumpeters such as yourself, who welcomed his election because of the inevitibility of war under a Clinton administration, have fallen (not so) strangely silent over the fact that this belligerent and talentless moron has brought the world to the verge of nuclear war less than seven months into his Presidency, during which time he has also turned the the American leadership into an episode of 'The Apprentice' and substituted tweeting for international diplomacy
Talk about and enemy at home as well as enemies abroad.
I've never been a fan of "strong leadership" -it always reminds me of concentration camps in order to make "the trains run on time", but a little diplomacy and serious negotiation rather than gungo-ho John Wayneism wouldn't go amiss here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:49 AM

"Every time I see that "Donal John" nonsense I want to puke. Let's hope that is what turns up soon on his headstone. "

Given the history of US politics, I am amazed that post has been allowed to stand.

Some people would have had a hay day advertising Oswald's links to "The Russians"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:56 AM

"Given the history of US politics, I am amazed that post has been allowed to stand."
Given the complexion of the present American administration, I am amazed that Acme hasn't had his door kicked in by armed U.S. Marines
Is that the type of censorship we can expect in your Brave New World
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:04 AM

Jim,
Precisely - starting a nuclear conflagration fits into this how exactly?
When will you morons get your head around the fact that nobody can possibly "win" a nuclear shooting match?

No-one is suggesting a US nuclear attack.
NK is suggesting an NK nuclear attack, and the only way to save the world from it is to remove NK's nukes.

Backwoodsman, my solution is to disarm NK, as Clinton vowed to do but did not.

The human cost now would be much greater, but less than if we put it off again and much less than if NK does what it says it intends to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:53 AM

How would disarming North Korea be achieved and with what justification? As the biggest nuclear power on earth is led by a nutcase I don't think that argument can be used on anyone else. Seeing as we are talking fantasy solutions here, a better alternative would be complete global disarmament would it not?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:01 AM

"Happy with that?"

Not really, I found your reply vacuous and lacking in critical analysis. Your reductionist assessment* of the situation oversimplifies the complexities of the real world..

"NK does not want to talk.

But it does. Talking is EXCATLY what NK wants as it wants sanctions to be lifted and to be seen as a major world power. Kim isn't so stupid to think he will bomb his way to the negotiating table; he's close to China and they will not favour a conflagration. NK's tactics of trying rag up the US are designed to elicit a response and the reason why ALL previous presidents have stayed their hand and not used overly provocative playground rhetoric. Trump lacks the ability to understand nuance and this is bad news. You need some degree of intellectual ability too be a world leader; that both Trump** and Kim lack any at all is a concern to a lot of people around the world.



* For example, this: "The war stopped over 60 years ago. There have been no hostile acts against NK in all that time." The second world war finished over 70 years ago but it's consequences are felt by us all on a daily basis and many people alive today remember it vividly and virtually all of us have family that were involved that makes it very personal. So the distance in time from the events doesn't stop the influence of those events. The political ramifications of WWII are with us every day. It's not different for the North Koreans, and it's erroneous to believe it is.

**Google the transcript of Trump's call to the governor of Guam. Incredible: incoherent and inarticulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:29 AM

@Stu - excellent post. I agree completely.

@KAoH - a glib, one sentence answer won't do at all. It's a bit like answering the question, "How can we get a man to the moon?" with, "Put him in a rocket and shoot him off". So...in detail, what are your proposals for the means to disarm North Korea. And it will take more than one glib sentence for me to be 'happy with that'.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:40 AM

Sorry Stu, I don't agree with that assessment I think the East have views on adopting the place occupied by the US in the last couple of centuries.....It is unlikely that China will want to disarm NK, unless it becomes a hindrance or an embarrassment.

Disarmament of NK is all but impossible without huge loss of life.
I don't think it is President Trump's intention to provoke war but to set up a dialogue....The Goodcop/Bad cop scenario always assists in achieving that goal.
The great powers need to understand that world domination by one nation or one side is no longer an option and China, US and Russia need to move closer in prevention of terrorism, controlling rogue states and other matters of INTERNATIONAL importance

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:54 AM

"No-one is suggesting a US nuclear attack."
Any attack is likely to provoke a nuclear reaction
This is a time for diplomacy and negotiation not the only response Trump is capable of - belligerence
Do you think North Korea is likely to stand for being disarmed?
You were the one who described interference in another country's affairs as "fascism" - what's the difference between the North Korean leadership and Assad.
Whewn it comes to who is suitabe to possess Nuclear Weapons - I would reckon NK and the US are neck-and-neck
Both have unstable leaders and the US has shown itself willing to use this shit on human beings.
Time to catch up with Bertrand Russell and Canon Collins I think - if it's not TOO LATE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:39 AM

" I think the East have views on adopting the place occupied by the US in the last couple of centuries."

China certainly might have, but I think they understand economic dominance will be the key to achieving this and their military and economic policies are formulated with this dominance in mind. This is also why they want to keep NK on a tight leash, as the very idea of a conflict on their border, especially involving the US which would be economically disastrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:39 AM

"Every time I see that 'Donal John' nonsense I want to puke. Let's hope that is what turns up soon on his headstone."

Ha. I can't resist. There's that great joke about a missing letter on a headstone, but, in deference to the grave nature of this topic, I've posted it in the joke thread, q.v.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:26 AM

the biggest nuclear power on earth is led by a nutcase

Totally agree with your assessment of Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:58 AM

Point taken, bobad. I shall rephrase

The first and second biggest nuclear powers on earth are led by nutcases.

BTW - At last count Russia had 7000 to The US's 6800. Both have enough to blow the world to oblivion many times over so it is a little trite to be discussing 200. In my opinion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM

"No-one is suggesting a US nuclear attack."
Any attack is likely to provoke a nuclear reaction

USA is committed to no first use of nukes.
NK is threatening just that.

Dave and Backwoodsman, disarming NK is no fantasy. How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?

The human cost will be much greater now, but greater still if put off any longer, or if a device is exploded over Seoul or Tokyo or Los Angeles.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:29 AM

disarming NK is no fantasy.

Yes it is. Until the rest of the world disarms.

How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?

No idea. You tell us.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:32 AM

"USA is committed to no first use of nukes."
Donald Trump id President - what's your point?
"but greater still if put off any longer, "
Why - perhaps we've got more empty coalmines now!!
Are you really proposing a preemptive strike?
Who needs a Trump when we have one of our own?
I knew your vacuous questions weere all rhetorical and you already had a "cunning plan"
Jay-sus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:45 AM

Dave,
disarming NK is no fantasy.
Yes it is. Until the rest of the world disarms.

Can you substantiate that assertion with any actual facts Dave?
No.
Of course it is possible. The current Kim could be persuaded to relinquish his nuclear weapons in negotiations, or his nuclear facilities could be destroyed.

No idea. You tell us.

By force Dave.

Jim,
Are you really proposing a preemptive strike?

Clinton did Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:51 AM

now Trump is stumping for a military solution to Venezuela

How about a military solution to Trump

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:05 AM

Clinton and Obama are no longer in office and bringing either of them into the argument is irrelevant at this stage, even though invoking their names seems to be a soothing balm for enthusiastic Trump apologists. We have an individual in the Oval Office who is mentally unbalanced (I'm running out of ways to say it) and he's already fanned the flames of this dilemma with his video game rhetoric and I, for one, don't want him making decisions that could affect the safety and well-being and lives of a million or more people (all people, not just Americans). As I said earlier, the best thing he can do is back off and let the grownups take care of this. He's already demonstrated an astonishing inability to govern on the domestic front why, should we expect anything better in foreign affairs.
The prospect of invoking the 25th amendment is looking more appealing but is probably not going to happen as he's loaded up his cabinet with corporate bloodsuckers and sycophants with mindsets similar to his own. It would also leave us with a far right ideologue in charge but it's relatively certain Pence would act in a much more responsible manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:11 AM

For some if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


And I'm proud to support all of our Trumps cause they need us to obey.
And I won't forget the votes suppressed that brought us to this day.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend Donald today.
'Cause it ain't fake fact that we got hacked, God bless the Bannon way

From the camps in Vladivostok to nuke plants of Tennessee,
From the red white and black sea to shining sea
From Norlands to the North pole and Moscow to LA,
There's pride in all our oligarchs who we won't betray,

So it's time to stand up and salute: God bless the Nazi way!

I'm proud to be a Russian Asset cause I learned to hate all gays.
And I won't forget the men who lied and took our rights away.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend Putin today.
'Cause it ain't fake fact that Russia hacked! But we hail the USA.

And I'm proud to support all of our Trumps cause I love to hate all day.
And I won't forget the men who lied and took our rights away.
And I'd gladly stand up... next to you and defend them still today.
'Cause it ain't fake fact that we got hacked We heil the USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:16 AM

"Clinton did Jim."
So ******* what?
It appears you are now
Nutters all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:57 AM

Ake's affection for calling President Trump "Donal John" is just another way of avoiding saying the guy's name. It's funny enough, if you think about it. (It's way easier to write "HWMNBN")





When this thread gets to "you said/he said/gimme citations" and back-and-forth bickering, and when the personalities doing the fighting become more important than the supposed subject, it will be closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:27 AM

Well said, Jeri. We already have

Can you substantiate that assertion with any actual facts

I, for one, not going to be drawn into that spiral again. As far as I am concerned you can shut it now.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:31 AM

Incidentally I have just seen the best adaptation of the presidents name so far

Troubled Dump.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:20 PM

Dave, what is wrong in asking that an assertion be backed?
The problem is that you can't.
I showed that your assertion was wrong anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:34 PM

Keith, you are presenting him with a hoop to jump through. He doesn't want to. Nobody needs to prove an opinion, and if you don't agree with him, there's nothing he can provide that will make you change your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:47 PM

it's relatively certain Pence would act in a much more responsible manner.

I'm not so sure of that - Pence is unstable, too, if to a lesser degree than Trump. And he'd still have to deal with Trump's cabinet of corporate bloodsuckers, sycophants and unqualified plutocrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:55 PM

It's a shit deal either way, Greg, I'll give you that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:28 PM

Thanks Jeri. Much appreciated.

Keith, you really need to take notice.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:34 PM

Apologies all. I should stick to the topic rather than let myself be sidetracked. Mea culpa :-(

It is my opinion that while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:56 PM

while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

Exactly, Dave. Got it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM

Dave and Backwoodsman, disarming NK is no fantasy. How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?"

No, stop trying to obfuscate and deflect by replying to a question with a question. Answer the question you were asked. Put up, or shut up.

Bet you can't, you wind-bag.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:51 PM

February 9, 1993: The IAEA demands special inspections of two sites that are believed to store nuclear waste. The request is based on strong evidence that North Korea has been cheating on its commitments under the NPT. North Korea refuses the IAEA's request.

March 12, 1993: Amid demands for special inspections, North Korea announces its intention to withdraw from the NPT in three months, citing Article X provisions that allow withdrawal for supreme national security considerations.

April 1, 1993: The IAEA declares that North Korea is not adhering to its safeguards agreement and that it cannot guarantee that North Korean nuclear material is not being diverted for nonpeaceful uses.

June 11, 1993: Following talks with the United States in New York, North Korea suspends its decision to pull out of the NPT just before the withdrawal would have become legally effective. North Korea also agrees to the full and impartial application of IAEA safeguards.

For its part, the United States grants assurances against the threat and use of force, including nuclear weapons. Washington also promises not to interfere with North Korea's internal affairs.

July 19, 1993: After a second round of talks with the United States, North Korea announces in a joint statement that it is "prepared to begin consultations with the IAEA on outstanding safeguards and other issues" and that it is ready to negotiate IAEA inspections of its nuclear facilities. The joint statement also indicates that Pyongyang might consider a deal with the United States to replace its graphite nuclear reactors with light-water reactors (LWRs), which are proliferation resistant.

Late 1993: The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency estimate that North Korea had separated about 12 kilograms of plutonium. This amount is enough for at least one or two nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:40 AM

"Jim, Are you really proposing a preemptive strike? KAOH "Clinton did Jim"

Just for clarity Clinton did NOT say the US would use a preemptive strike, he said the US would retaliate.

Everyone can read the report below:

What Clinton Said

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:55 AM

while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

I agree, but NK is a special case.
Their possession of such weapons makes millions of people hostage to an irrational dictator in probably the most cruel and repressive regime in the world.

UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile.
If I had family on West Coast USA or Japan I would be worried.

That is not just my view, or just Trump's.
All previous administrations including Obama and Clinton have considered a nuclear NK unacceptable.
All wrong? All uninformed? All hypocrites?

Jeri, I understand I can not make Dave jump through hoops, or apparently even ask him to, but may I be allowed to point out when his assertions are based on no actual knowledge or any evidence?
That they are just a vacuous whim with no basis in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM

San Francisco, London and Sydney are all pretty much the same distance from North Korea.

That should in no way be seen as an endorsement by me of Trump's rhetoric, or indeed Kim Jong Un's.

In my view an existing nuclear powers should be disarming as indicated by Article VI of the NNPT.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:04 AM

"an" should read "all". Can't you edit posts any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:08 AM

Rag, opening sentence of your NY Times link.

"The North Korean Government accused President Clinton today of provoking it with threats of war after he warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms. "

What did Hillary Clinton say?

"North Korea's decision to conduct another nuclear test is outrageous and unacceptable.  I strongly condemn this reckless action, which – coupled with its recent series of missile launches – makes clear Pyongyang's determination to develop a deliverable nuclear weapon.  This constitutes a direct threat to the United States, and we cannot and will never accept this."
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/statements/2016/09/09/statement-from-hillary-clinton-on-north-koreas-nuclear-test/

So, not just Trump.