BS: Trump Korean War II

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 17 - 06:19 AM

"Donald Trump?"
George W Bush, Ronald Regan, Richard Nixon..... how far do you wanna go back?
Maybe instaif of looking at "fail safe systems" it's time the validity of these Weapons of Mass Destruction are questioned.
It's more than a little ludicrous that invasions can be launched against those suspected of possessing the wherewithal to manufacture such weapons by countries who have proved they cannot be trusted with them but, in one particular case, have actually used them on civilians.
Memo - must buy a new battery for my DOOMSDAY CLOCK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 17 - 06:03 AM

Instead of mocking those that supposedly have their fingers on the trigger for nuclear war, perhaps the deficiencies of the fail safe systems should be looked at.
I wonder how many times we have been at the brink of nuclear war.
Was there not a wargames tape played for realtime once upon a time?
You can be sure many incidents have been buried.

https://futureoflife.org/background/nuclear-close-calls-a-timeline/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Aug 17 - 05:38 AM

If anything serious does arise from the present situation it will at least put to rest the comment by Rear Admiral Gene R Larocque (ret) regarding the major location of WW3

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 17 - 05:09 AM

An insane dictator has been given free rein to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to deliver them.

Donald Trump?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 17 - 04:40 AM

gillymore,
U.S. presidents have been keeping this situation in check for 60 years through diplomacy,

No they have not.
The situation has not been "in check." An insane dictator has been given free rein to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to deliver them.
Clinton considered striking his nuclear sites back when they were still vulnerable, but chose not to.

Backwoodsman,
As you find a perfectly sane and responsible suggestion from an experienced statesman so amusing,

No. It is indeed a sane and responsible suggestion to hope for and work towards the current Kim being deposed, but as I said that is long term and we are now faced with an imminent and urgent crisis.
I am sure that has been the strategy in recent years anyway, but so far it has failed miserably.

So now it falls to Trump to do something, and it has to be something different.
He may fuck up completely, but his predecessors all failed and so here we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 09:43 PM

Somebody else is watching Rachael! (I've actually been in the DIA building.)

No, I didn't mean a nuclear war was inevitable. NK dicks around on the DMZ all the time. I didn't think anything would improve there unless it got bad enough for people to try to make it better.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 09:15 PM

The more people who believe nuclear war is inevitable the more likely it will become.
I have met people so downtrodden/victimized that a vengeful desire to blow it all up is a normal blind impulse.
This however is not what Jeri was saying.


If Trump had a different war to pursue with better profitability he would. Any war will do to cement his authority/dictatorship to supersede investigations.

Unconfirmed, unsubstantiated claims that NPRK has miniaturized nukes is by just one agency on their own, is what this brouhaha is based on.
This intel desk got this wrong before.

The master of lies and fake news simply may be having a go at our expense.

Since when has Trump given full credibility and respect to any single intel agency???

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 06:17 PM

You can't have "another shooting war" when the first hasn't ended.
#1 is still, technically, going on. This escalation was, IMO, bound to happen eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

that's the spirit Al

I too think Kim loves playing the bad little boy for real and by pretending.

He warned of surrounding Guam with fire but not Guam itself.
If we respond with full wrath after a 'near but not at Guam' attack Korea will have played the US like we played the Japanese diplomats before Pearl Harbor. Korea would say the US did a first surprise attack on Korea.

Bad little boys love to complain "but I didn't do anything" The missiles were not even loaded and were in International waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 05:20 PM

Bobad, the situation I was referring to was another shooting war on the peninsula but your point is well taken, the stakes have risen. All the more reason to leave it to experienced professionals and not some egomaniacal, dick-wagging tweeter.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 05:04 PM

Poem

Kim Yong Un
Was fond of a bun.
He bloody nearly
Weighed a ton.
Poor Kim ! his life was tedious circuits
Of eating buns and silly haircuts.
he said, i've built a bomb
i've built a rocket
And its been fun, i wouldn't knock it.
but what would be enormous fun
would be meeting a really special someone
just like me - a great bullshitter!
I wonder if there's one on Twitter.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 05:01 PM

U.S. presidents have been keeping this situation in check for 60 years through diplomacy

Er, not exactly.........in 2003 North Korea withdrew from the NPT, which it had acceded to in 1985, when they were discovered to be illegally enriching uranium. Since then they have developed nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles in defiance of UN Security Council resolutions 1718, 1874, 2087, 2094, 2270, 2321 and 2371 which brings us to the present situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 04:14 PM

"The only suggestion so far was in Backwoodsman's link, which was to hope that there might be a coup in NK some time soon!
Anyone holding their breath for that happening?"

As you find a perfectly sane and responsible suggestion from an experienced statesman so amusing, instead of trying to provoke others into making suggestions which you can then peck away at them over ad nauseam, how about enlightening us all with your recommendation for a solution to the problem of NK v. Everybody Else?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 02:56 PM

But catch your breath, we are not there.

Yet. All we are saying, is give Trump a chance.

But no problam anyway - just duck under your desk & cover your head with your hands. Easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM

Kinda like West Texas in August but not as bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 02:29 PM

The damage from the H bomb comes from the immense pressures and heat.
But its a dry heat :^/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 12:55 PM

The climate of the Cuban missile crisis was much more intense since most people knew of military units called to action. I remember walking around the block on a warm early evening and hearing the news from a few TV's but there were many people watching Mr. Ed as well.

I had a dream of WWIII that is still crystal clear in my mind. The four minute warning consisted of people looking out their front door and blaming each other until everything went white.

But catch your breath, we are not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 12:16 PM

We had the films and the drills in the US, too, although they stopped a long time ago. If you've been keeping up with the news, you know that N Korea does have missiles capable of reaching the US. I don't know why we wouldn't have enough warning to shoot them down before they get here.

I do believe that if N Korea launched a missile armed with a nuke warhead at us, it would likely be the last one. It would be a gesture of defiance, because they don't have a lot of them, and because the crazy man in the White House would likely obliterate them, regardless of who else would be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 11:54 AM

"It's very easy for those in the UK and all those who are out of range of DPRK missiles, to bandy charges and statements back and forth."

Rap, here in the UK we lived under the dark shadow of nuclear war through the 70s and 80s, pretty much up to the fall of the Berlin Wall. The threat from the USSR was very, very real and very close to us. We had frequent testing of the air raid sirens (chilling, never got used to them) and there were public safety films that told us what to do in the even of an attack. Does the 'Four Minute Warning' mean anything too you?

Most of your country isn't in range of these missiles, there are no nuclear warheads yet and even then strikes would be very limited as NK doesn't have the capacity to mount a large-scale nuclear attack. On the other hand, if the USSR had attacked us during the cold war us and Europe would have been utterly devastated and rendered uninhabitable. Why do you think so many people in Europe were alarmed when Regan got into power? It wasn't the US that would be subject to pre-emptive strikes had the tanks rolled across the border... it would have been us.

Scary times we hoped we'd seen the last of. Big cultural impact too.

The Fun Boy Three tell it as was.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 10:43 AM

Successful Brinkmanship is not determined by intelligence. It relies on luck. imho

btw fallout is the least of the problems with nuclear war.

N Korea does not have H bombs so their devices will be dirty.

America has three different kinds of bombs, fission, fusion and neutron. A fourth kind is theoretical.

H bombs can destroy some bunkers while neutron bombs only kill life and leaves structures intact but aged.

Which dogs of war would Trump release?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 10:27 AM

Keith, instead of playing the Grand Inquisitor do your own research. U.S. presidents have been keeping this situation in check for 60 years through diplomacy, the orange buffoon has chosen to vitiate the American diplomatic corp, apparently with no resistance from his SoS and this policy has brought us to crisis stage in a very short time. We have a dangerously incompetent lunatic in the White House whose being advised by 2 dangerous extremists in Bannon and Miller. Figure it our for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 10:22 AM

What am I supposed to be trying Greg, and what are you not thanking me for?
Does anyone know what Greg is saying?

Any statement in my post that you challenge Greg?
Any answers to the questions I posed?
Anything actually relevant to say at all Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 10:17 AM

Nice try, Prof- but no thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 10:14 AM

So what should the "ginger twat" do about a mad dictator with nuclear armed ICBMs that can reach US and who keeps saying he is going to use them?

The only suggestion so far was in Backwoodsman's link, which was to hope that there might be a coup in NK some time soon!
Anyone holding their breath for that happening?

Trump only inherited this long standing problem a few months ago.
What did previous administrations do about it?
Any lessons from them?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM

Not quite, Rap - during the Cuban Missile Crisis we had an intelligent human being in the White House and and a cabinet of qualified individuals instead of a deranged five-year-old and a gang of unqualified plutocrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 09:35 AM

It's very easy for those in the UK and all those who are out of range of DPRK missiles, to bandy charges and statements back and forth.

I'm not, and I get the feelings I had during the '50s and '60s, during the Cuban Missile Crisis and an overwhelming feeling of deja vu.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 09:31 AM

There is no more State Department. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-state-department-positions_us_58e3e8bee4b0f4a923b2ba5e At least not much of it is left.

We do not even have an ambassador in Pyongyang

Who will win the race; Mueller to impeachment or Trump to war?

Where is the CIA pristine bullet strategy when we need one?

The US is downwind from a Korean Nuclear war.
The deadly fallout would effect the Bering Sea to Hawaii, unless neutron bomb air bursts are used. Fallout from Fusion bombs would be measurable world wide. Across America the 'milk people' would not be happy with their Strontium 90 milk.

One good thing could be the drop in the price in property values all along the west coast cities

The new immigrants, refugees and aliens will be Trump voters unless they built their bunker, just until the radiation blows over.

But we can all sleep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 08:41 AM

We'd be much better served by a S.o.S with some diplomatic experience. This is no time for on the job training, plus Tillerson is being handcuffed by President Bannon/Trump who is trying to gut the State Department by underfunding it and understaffing it so, presumably, they can handle foreign affairs from the White House (via tweets and nasty rhetoric). Old hands from the Department will tell you that most of the critical diplomatic work is done by officials below the cabinet level but President B/T hasn't seen fit to fill many of those posts. This crisis is of Trump's making and the only solution is for him to back off (or ideally resign), throw out Bannon and get a competent Secretary of State and create a healthy and vigorous diplomatic corp. Of course, not much chance of all that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 07:58 AM

People of Earth have narrowly avoided the accidental release of nuclear weapons dozens of times, excluding the intentional test detonations under water, below and above ground, above the Stratosphere and the two deliberately dropped on Japan. In all its over 300 detonations.

When it comes to reasons for using nukes, verbal insults would be a first.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 06:39 AM

It seems to me that Rex Tillerson is doing a reasonably good job of counterbalancing the rash statements coming from Trump. There are some decent people in the Trump Adminstration, despite their conservativsm. But what they're doing most of the time, is damage control after their boss spews his tweets.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 06:24 AM

"I know the average people have no control over him, but they don't seem to want any"

Huh? So it's OK is they die in a US strike then? Do you understand the conditions these people live under? They are victims of an extremely brutal totalitarian regime, and they don't have a choice. You think they choose to live like that? Jesus.

"Something new and different has to be tried."

Perhaps, but shouting your mouth off like a drunken idiot man-baby isn't the way forward; this moron doesn't know that real life isn't like his telly show. All Trump is doing is playing into Kim's hands and creating an atmosphere of fear and tension around the world in which simple mistakes, misunderstandings and misinterpretations could become the trigger for a nuclear war.

If Kim fires his missiles at the seas around Guam and the US acts with force then all bets are off, and the world has a two fat cock-waving narcissist imbeciles intent on showing the world which one is the biggest poltroon whilst millions die and suffer. Trump is too much of a sad alpha male NOT to react with force, one can but hope his hand is stayed by saner voices advising him.

Containment isn't ideal, but keeping the peace is paramount and this week the whole of the UN voted in new sanctions including China and Russia, no small feat in that talking shop. China is the key to keeping Pyongyang in line and they must be encouraged to help in this matter, using peaceful methods such as political pressure. Of course this sort of understanding is beyond the Pussy-Grabber-in-Chief and he's spent part of his incumbency pissing off the Chinese; not a bad thing in some ways, but Trump's lack of subtlety and total gobshiteness leaves little room for manoeuvre when trouble occurs and a different approach is needed.

Trump thinks that the US waving it's huge bollocks and a semi-automatic at the world whilst chanting "USA! USA! USA! look at our huge balls and despair" is the answer to any disagreement with an enemy... as we know, that hasn't worked out so well in the past and it won't again.

Especially for the ordinary folk. It's they who will die horribly, and they don't deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 06:01 AM

"If NK regime are "utter twats" they were utter twats under previous administrations, "
The deformed nature of North Korean society is a direct result of a genocidal war carried out by the west which left that part of the world a smouldering ruin and many of its people reduced to living in caves.
The American and British administrations were directly responsible for that war.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 04:58 AM

From Backwoodsman's link, concluding sentence.

" The central aim of our strategy should be to foster conditions that enable this natural, internal process to move faster, while preparing ourselves, our allies and the North Korean people for the challenges we will face when change comes. "

We do not have the luxury of a long term strategy.
It could kick off next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 04:53 AM

Another fine mess they all got us into.

"They" did not create the regime in NK.
If NK regime are "utter twats" they were utter twats under previous administrations, but not dealt with by them.
The can was just kicked down the road, and here we are.

NK developed ICBMs and nuclear warheads faster than anyone believed possible, under the previous US administration.

You may disagree with Trump's methods but his predecessors got us into this mess not him.

Something new and different has to be tried.

Trump and Obama responded very differently to Assad's use of chemical weapons. Obama's response failed to stop them doing it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 17 - 03:07 AM

If The Ginger Tosser can actually read, he might like to study This article and learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 07:33 PM

"The US President threatened to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders on TV last night. That is how fucked the world has become."

I should like to commend this as Mudcat Sentence (or two) Of The Month. Even though I never swear like that here!

I see a massive country rattling its high-tech nuclear sabres at another country rattling it's totally low-tech ramshackle sabres. And in the wings we have a rather stern massive China, staring fiercely at both, (nuclear) arms akimbo. Standoffs look so dramatic and they make really good Hollywood. But the whole bloody thing is so puerile. Most wars, hot or cold, are fought between good guys and bad guys. This one is utter twats vs utter twats. One side may well be more utter than the other, but that's up to you to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 12:39 PM

Earlier I had a profound foreboding before Trump opened his bellicose mouth and I posted "I have an inscrutable fear of the next ism. I do not think it will come from the people but instead promoted as the next snake oil cure."

I only vaguely pick up on what enormous numbers of people are thinking simultaneously even if it is the near future. I do not believe that is psychic but rather just sensing the human wavelength in the flexibility of time.

My next great prediction... The Earth will get hotter :^?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM

spot on Backwoodsman

This is why I said back in May, "this is not a good time to buy a Hyundai".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 12:08 PM

"I asked the question, "what should they be doing."
Perhaps removing their noses from Trump's arse might be a good start
I seem to remember that it was the late (politically) Theresa Mayfly who was the first to skate across the Pond to kiss the newly elected fundament, quickly joined by all the other self-serving suck-holes
Another fine mess they all got us into.
I'm sure that's not the answer you were seeking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu - PM
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM

The US President threatened to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders on TV last night. That is how fucked the world has become.

That a person could be so idiotic, flippant and matter-of-fact about visiting such unimaginable suffering on people is beyond comprehension. Two fat bastards shouting at each other like spoilt, attention-seeking children in the school playground. They are both contemptible, Trump the more so because his lack of intelligence and nuance means he's little more than a corporate bully that is way out of his depth, unfit and unable even to comprehend his awesome responsibilities. It's only ever been about him, as it is with Kim.

Remember: The host of a reality game show just threatened to burn the children of North Korea in a thermonuclear strike of "fire and fury". The capitalist lunatics have taken over the asylum."

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 11:45 AM

get Trump to shut the hell up.

Not a snowball's chance....

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 11:37 AM

I was stationed in S Korea twice. The saber-rattling is something that happened all the time. The missiles & nukes are new.
IF they fire on someone, we ought to unload every conventional weapon we have on them, preferably military targets. I know the average people have no control over him, but they don't seem to want any, and Kim is a threat to other countries.

Whatever happens, it's going to affect S. Korea and to some extent, China. It would be good to end the Korean war, but it would be better to do it by wielding diplomats and not weapons.
...and the way to start is to get Trump to shut the hell up.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 10:47 AM

not a great deal about what our own Governments will or should be doing

I asked the question, "what should they be doing."
Any suggestions?
Obviously not the same as they have been doing because that has just made the situation worse.
They need to try a new approach, but what?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 10:39 AM

There's a great deal of what Cina or North Korea Korea will or won't do - not a great deal about what our own Governments will or should be doing
They are the ones supposedly answerable to us and, when push comes to shove, we are the ones committed to demanding what they should be doing in our name
The problem with "wars of words" where self-serving nutters are concerned is getting them to distinguish between the words and the real thing
Must dig up that copy of Dr STRANGELOVE ' again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 09:48 AM

China will not bite unless it suffers injury of ANY kind. $ or ruin.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 09:44 AM

China will not stand by if the DPRK is attacked or if another country is attacked by the DPRK. China is into making money and if the ROK is attacked, well, the ROK was good for USD $90.1B imports from China in 2015, and the ROK exported USD $131B to China that year.

On the other hand, the DPRK imported USD $2.34B from China and exported USD $2.95B to China in 2015. (My source is http://atlas.media.mit.edu.)

Fraternal Marxist bonds be damned, China isn't going to lose a USD $88B market because of some lunatic kid...and that kid only remains in power because China wants the DPRK as a buffer state. Should that kid become too much of an international nuisance or start a war (fergawdsake!), well, there are more tractable people available.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM

NOKO is the bark of the Chinese dog.

In this war of words China will measure carefully what they will or will not say for themselves. The Trump admin will not.

China will not bite unless they suffer injury of any kind.

Prease excuse my Asian voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 08:42 AM

It's only a "war of words" chaps, in the hope of effecting some dialogue.

Remember what happened to Saddam and Col Gaddafi when they rolled over for the West, their respective countries are now lawless wastelands, their people leaving in droves.....if they can afford to leave at all.

Jaw Jaw   is better than cold war.....or hot war.

The problems of the political world need addressing, Islamic terrorism, rogue states, détente between the new economies and the old, Donal John seems to be willing to address these problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 08:30 AM

Is NK a serious threat to the inhabitants of SK, Japan and US, or not?
Should we take seriously NK's threat to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders?

What should Trump do to best protect the people of SK Japan and US?
Nothing tried so far has succeeded in reining in NK's threats or their increasing capability to carry them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 07:06 AM

"I just hope there's a substantial buffer between our nutbag, megalomaniacal president and the nuclear codes, with or without stiletto heels."
I believe he's committed to tweeting a four minute warning before he presses the button
Jim Carroll