Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:13 PM

Thank you! It worked for several weeks on the new Win11 OS. File system shouldn't be an issue.

Was your adapter a free standing device, or was it a box to plug the guts of the old hard drive into?

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:16 PM

I assume this drive is USB. If it doesn't work with your box there's little to lose by opening it up. Inside there's probably a 2½" HDD. I have a couple of those USB to SATA adapters - about $5-10: they work. Buy a USB 3.n where n is as high as possible, for future compatibility. If the drive is bigger you'll have to plug it in to a SATA socket on the mobo and a power supply.

If the drive has failed that's probably the end of it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 02:18 PM

An adapter is an adapter. USB plug at one end, and SATA etc. on the other one to plug into the "raw" disk. As Dave writes, you have to take the disk out of its "case" – which essentially is another such adapter or converter that might be the cause of the problem.

The idea of trying with another computer is not to be dismissed entirely; miracles did happen in the past.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM

I'll look into what other device the drive inside the case can be dropped into - but as you say, we'll try a different computer first. There's no going back to using that device as a drive after this, we just want the data before it is recycled as e-waste.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 08:27 PM

I've got maybe ten old disk drives from long dead computers. I can access them using USB adapters. 2.5" drives don't need a power supply but 3.5" drives do. I've got both kinds somewhere but it's ages since I used them. Of course if the drive itself is dead the adapter is useless.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 03:05 AM

Even if it's a 2½" drive you don't of course need a a USB-SATA adapter if you're prepared to poke about inside your computer and find a power plug and you have a spare SATA socket - or borrow these from another drive.

One thing I discovered recently when I updated my RaspberryPi (it's a music player) is that USB adapters usually cannot pass the full range of SATA commands to the drive. I remember reading that SMART commands may not work. So diagnostic software can discover more about a directly-connected drive than a USB-connected one.

OTOH I wouldn't just connect up a random drive inside a Windows machine. What I do is fire up a gparted live disk. If that can see the disk, but says it has no partition table (maybe it's corrupt) then an expert might be able to recover the data.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM

As for "a spare SATA socket", I vaguely remember using that ages ago, with a lot of fuss about "master and slave" – that was in an era when "PC" was short for "personal computer". I think I had to replug my boot disk to the other socket of a flimsy "bus", and make sure all the 100 needles or so were pushed tightly and none was bent. Best ask an expert in case you consider it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 10:57 AM

Perhaps I should explain the PC topic: some time ago, some people complained that the notions of "master" and "slave", applied to devices, were racist, so that other names are now used.

A problem with racism is that those who diagnose it in others often reveal their own latent racism ex negativo.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 11:09 AM

Back in the early oughts I had external drives in drive enclosures and have had one or two of those (or other devices) that used SATA or eSATA cables to plug to the motherboard. I still have cables somewhere.

That whole "master and slave" terminology was in other technology as well. Did anyone else drive a standard transmission car or truck with a master and a slave cylinder for the transmission fluid? It was an appalling set of terms even back then.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 11:47 AM

I ought to warn that the connectors to a SATA drive are pretty flimsy. It's not so bad if you're using a USB adapter because it's one wide plug, covering both power (7 connectors) and data (15). SATA drive connectors

But the power plug particularly is very easy to break when it's on a too-short cable from the PSU and you can't see what you're doing. I've broken one and it was hard to get it to maintain contact once the plastic bit was missing.

The mobo end is fairly robust. I've seen two types - one just pushes in and the other has a squeeze-lock mechanism.

My 2006 spare desktop recently failed, so I no longer have any of the old IDE ribbon cable drives. They could be difficult to plug together, let alone the master/slave/jumpers malarky, but at least they stayed plugged!

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 01:49 PM

The only reason for setting up the SATA etc system would be transfer the data and then be done with it. I agree - they weren't very stable as far as being bumped, even running through one of the slots on the back of the computer.

The old ribbon cables - I have struggled with those over the years also, but once in place there's usually no problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Oct 23 - 09:56 PM

Western Digital - an original HD corp ... just plunged, an incredible 10% over night.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I expect we will all wake to a whole new world Monday morning

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Oct 23 - 03:32 PM

SRS' advice about getting the data off a suspect storage device ASAP is spot on.

I have quite a few HDs of various sizes and provenances. I was going to post a HD question regarding 'shingle' technology but I'm holding off in order to do something less useful. Give advice.

I usually purchase new drives in pairs and then plug 'em in and let 'em heat up and use them for strictly temporary stuff. Once they've been in use for a couple of weeks I may load them down with stuff I care about.

In one case with some Seagate portables they worked for a few years and then they quit relatively close in time in the same way. This meant to me that the same thing went wrong inside both of them, probably component wise. I could hear the disks spin up, but the computer would not recognize them.

With me, electrical and electronic items are very 'fungible' so if you have two of the same thing, what you do to one if repeated will do the same thing to the other. In this case, both drives were the same age, used for the same thing, treated well and stored the same way.

That's where the situation has stopped. I thought of composing a nice letter to Seagate, because I'm fairly certain it's a known failure to them or somebody like them. But although they may repond out of pride it's clearly beyond warranty.

My advice is not much better: Search the internet for your specific problem with your specific HD.

Yeah, you read this far for not much. More later!

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:09 PM

Did it work formerly with the very same computer and OS that now fails to recognize it? If not, it may be an issue of the OS and the file system support.
Trying with a different computer is certainly worth the effort.
I bought an adapter ages ago for about $/€/£40 that connects "raw" HDs of various interfaces to USB; it works, if the HD is intact. If the fault is with the USB adapter in the drive case (– very rare!), this is the remedy. You can ask around if someone in your vicinity owns such a device; the main use case is to save data from old computers.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 02:18 PM

An adapter is an adapter. USB plug at one end, and SATA etc. on the other one to plug into the "raw" disk. As Dave writes, you have to take the disk out of its "case" – which essentially is another such adapter or converter that might be the cause of the problem.

The idea of trying with another computer is not to be dismissed entirely; miracles did happen in the past.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM

As for "a spare SATA socket", I vaguely remember using that ages ago, with a lot of fuss about "master and slave" – that was in an era when "PC" was short for "personal computer". I think I had to replug my boot disk to the other socket of a flimsy "bus", and make sure all the 100 needles or so were pushed tightly and none was bent. Best ask an expert in case you consider it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 10:57 AM

Perhaps I should explain the PC topic: some time ago, some people complained that the notions of "master" and "slave", applied to devices, were racist, so that other names are now used.

A problem with racism is that those who diagnose it in others often reveal their own latent racism ex negativo.

Subject: Tech: Computer backup Win10/11 external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 11:01 AM

I'm tagging on this existing thread to ask a question for a friend who recently took his external data drive that he'd used with an ancient Win10 system and started using it with a new Dell Win11 system. I was there to set up the new computer and told him he should move that data into the new one ASAP now that he has an extra drive. On the old computer he kept it on the external drive for the extra space and so he wouldn't have programs and data on the C: drive. Now he has a D: HDD with a SSD C: drive.

It seems that the new computer has stopped recognizing the external drive. And it seems increasingly likely that the external drive may have failed. Several of us discussed this privately in a group thread on Facebook - mapping to the old drive, etc. but in this plug and play world, his drive should be visible.

SO - if we assume at this point that the external drive has failed (a regular Seagate drive, not a bare drive inserted into a drive box), how do get the data out of the drive? I see ads periodically for a device to attach to drives to get their data - do those work? And will we have to disassemble the external drive case to attach a device like that? A local computer business is suggesting they would charge him $2000 to transfer his data. I think we can do better.

I am considering first having him bring the drive over here and attaching it to my old Win10 computer that is no longer online; if I can see the contents I'll transfer them to something else that he can take home and use to move data into the new computer. I give that less than a 50/50 chance of working, but it's worth a try.

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:13 PM

Thank you! It worked for several weeks on the new Win11 OS. File system shouldn't be an issue.

Was your adapter a free standing device, or was it a box to plug the guts of the old hard drive into?

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM

I'll look into what other device the drive inside the case can be dropped into - but as you say, we'll try a different computer first. There's no going back to using that device as a drive after this, we just want the data before it is recycled as e-waste.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 11:09 AM

Back in the early oughts I had external drives in drive enclosures and have had one or two of those (or other devices) that used SATA or eSATA cables to plug to the motherboard. I still have cables somewhere.

That whole "master and slave" terminology was in other technology as well. Did anyone else drive a standard transmission car or truck with a master and a slave cylinder for the transmission fluid? It was an appalling set of terms even back then.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 01:49 PM

The only reason for setting up the SATA etc system would be transfer the data and then be done with it. I agree - they weren't very stable as far as being bumped, even running through one of the slots on the back of the computer.

The old ribbon cables - I have struggled with those over the years also, but once in place there's usually no problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 08:27 PM

I've got maybe ten old disk drives from long dead computers. I can access them using USB adapters. 2.5" drives don't need a power supply but 3.5" drives do. I've got both kinds somewhere but it's ages since I used them. Of course if the drive itself is dead the adapter is useless.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 01:16 PM

I assume this drive is USB. If it doesn't work with your box there's little to lose by opening it up. Inside there's probably a 2½" HDD. I have a couple of those USB to SATA adapters - about $5-10: they work. Buy a USB 3.n where n is as high as possible, for future compatibility. If the drive is bigger you'll have to plug it in to a SATA socket on the mobo and a power supply.

If the drive has failed that's probably the end of it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 03:05 AM

Even if it's a 2½" drive you don't of course need a a USB-SATA adapter if you're prepared to poke about inside your computer and find a power plug and you have a spare SATA socket - or borrow these from another drive.

One thing I discovered recently when I updated my RaspberryPi (it's a music player) is that USB adapters usually cannot pass the full range of SATA commands to the drive. I remember reading that SMART commands may not work. So diagnostic software can discover more about a directly-connected drive than a USB-connected one.

OTOH I wouldn't just connect up a random drive inside a Windows machine. What I do is fire up a gparted live disk. If that can see the disk, but says it has no partition table (maybe it's corrupt) then an expert might be able to recover the data.

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Oct 23 - 11:47 AM

I ought to warn that the connectors to a SATA drive are pretty flimsy. It's not so bad if you're using a USB adapter because it's one wide plug, covering both power (7 connectors) and data (15). SATA drive connectors

But the power plug particularly is very easy to break when it's on a too-short cable from the PSU and you can't see what you're doing. I've broken one and it was hard to get it to maintain contact once the plastic bit was missing.

The mobo end is fairly robust. I've seen two types - one just pushes in and the other has a squeeze-lock mechanism.

My 2006 spare desktop recently failed, so I no longer have any of the old IDE ribbon cable drives. They could be difficult to plug together, let alone the master/slave/jumpers malarky, but at least they stayed plugged!

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Oct 23 - 09:56 PM

Western Digital - an original HD corp ... just plunged, an incredible 10% over night.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I expect we will all wake to a whole new world Monday morning

Subject: RE: Tech: Computer backup: Win10/11, external HDD fail
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Oct 23 - 03:32 PM

SRS' advice about getting the data off a suspect storage device ASAP is spot on.

I have quite a few HDs of various sizes and provenances. I was going to post a HD question regarding 'shingle' technology but I'm holding off in order to do something less useful. Give advice.

I usually purchase new drives in pairs and then plug 'em in and let 'em heat up and use them for strictly temporary stuff. Once they've been in use for a couple of weeks I may load them down with stuff I care about.

In one case with some Seagate portables they worked for a few years and then they quit relatively close in time in the same way. This meant to me that the same thing went wrong inside both of them, probably component wise. I could hear the disks spin up, but the computer would not recognize them.

With me, electrical and electronic items are very 'fungible' so if you have two of the same thing, what you do to one if repeated will do the same thing to the other. In this case, both drives were the same age, used for the same thing, treated well and stored the same way.

That's where the situation has stopped. I thought of composing a nice letter to Seagate, because I'm fairly certain it's a known failure to them or somebody like them. But although they may repond out of pride it's clearly beyond warranty.

My advice is not much better: Search the internet for your specific problem with your specific HD.

Yeah, you read this far for not much. More later!