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BS: Choice of education

Jim Carroll 23 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 17 - 06:00 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM
Teribus 23 Apr 17 - 04:24 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 01:23 PM
Raggytash 22 Apr 17 - 09:52 AM
Teribus 22 Apr 17 - 09:48 AM
Raggytash 22 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM
Teribus 22 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 17 - 07:52 AM
Senoufou 22 Apr 17 - 05:26 AM
Teribus 22 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 17 - 04:27 AM
Raggytash 22 Apr 17 - 04:04 AM
Teribus 22 Apr 17 - 03:52 AM
Senoufou 22 Apr 17 - 03:20 AM
Raggytash 22 Apr 17 - 03:10 AM
Teribus 22 Apr 17 - 01:47 AM
Donuel 21 Apr 17 - 04:37 PM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 04:31 PM
Senoufou 21 Apr 17 - 03:21 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 17 - 12:47 PM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 11:36 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 11:29 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Apr 17 - 11:19 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 11:09 AM
Greg F. 21 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 11:00 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 10:54 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 10:27 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM
Senoufou 21 Apr 17 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 17 - 04:10 AM
Raggytash 21 Apr 17 - 03:35 AM
Teribus 21 Apr 17 - 02:39 AM
Greg F. 20 Apr 17 - 05:50 PM
Stu 20 Apr 17 - 08:34 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 17 - 08:07 AM
Teribus 20 Apr 17 - 07:45 AM
Senoufou 20 Apr 17 - 07:42 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 17 - 06:54 AM
Senoufou 20 Apr 17 - 06:22 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 17 - 05:54 AM
Stu 20 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM
Teribus 20 Apr 17 - 02:43 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 17 - 06:06 PM
Stu 19 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM

"surely I am allowed to do that?"
Perhaps if you didn't abuse people and try to talk down to them you might have something to say
You hector everybody and we all know what happened to him - he got dragged by his heels behind a chariot (get sombody to look it up for you)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

Why I'm asking - a reminder:

"Another idiotic belief is that everybody has to go to University. WTF for? Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources." (Teribus, 20 April)

All I want to know is which degrees are the bullshit ones!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:00 AM

So which are the bullshit ones? Do you perhaps believe in training only and not in education? How evasive can you get!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

It was senofou herself who described your words as a tirade not I.

I agree with her that your reaction was way over the top, but then again I'm used to your bullying, hectoring style, it doesn't bother me one iota, but a little decorum may be in order with other posters.


Ever thought of taking an Anger Management course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:24 AM

A list of "bullshit Degrees" that have no useful or practical application - if you don't mind Shaw.

Tirade Shaggy? I was responding to Senoufou's accusation - surely I am allowed to do that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:23 PM

As yiu're hectoring Raggytash about the nature of your educational qualifications, allow me to re-hector you. The list of bullshit degrees, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:52 AM

"What tirade Senoufou?? You are the one making broadbrush general statements to support typically left-wing stereotypes that have little or no bearing on what is being discussed. The fact that you appear unable to argue your case when challenged has got nothing to do with me. As "Teribus" has no connection whatsoever to Latin I fail to see the point in noting the Latin vocative case of the word"
(Teribus 22.04.17 08.15 AM)

I suppose I must have made up this outrageous shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:48 AM

What's up Raggy still cannot quite steel yourself to having to openly admit that you have got no idea whatsoever as to where I was educated or the level to which I was educated, which of course would make your "fact" nothing of the sort.

Who by the way is "having at go at" who?

Mind you it would appear that your sort of discussion revolves around you making a whole load of shit up, no matter how outrageous, and then have all your gormless pals agree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM

Typical response from Mr Angry.

Senoufou is possibly the most gentle person on this site, judging by her posts, but even that doesn't stop the hectoring, blustering bully having a go at her.

Appalling behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM

You'd win your bet Raggy, but then I am not the complete and utter stranger claiming to know for a fact what education anybody had - That you eejit is you.

So what facts about me do you know Raggy, I am dying to hear (By the way if you are relying on anything said by your pal Jom - you will be well off the mark).

What tirade Senoufou?? You are the one making broadbrush general statements to support typically left-wing stereotypes that have little or no bearing on what is being discussed. The fact that you appear unable to argue your case when challenged has got nothing to do with me. As "Teribus" has no connection whatsoever to Latin I fail to see the point in noting the Latin vocative case of the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:52 AM

"Victoria and David Beckham"
Are unlikely to ever be running the country - that's not to say they wouldn't make a beter job of it though !!
"WHAT have they been handed on a platter?"
The privileges that society awards the wealthy on the basis that they have more of I right to them than those who actually do the work
As dodgy an your unqualified claims are on inherited wealth, it is only a side-issue anyway
The real point is that rights like health, security and position are bought and exclude those who are not wealthy.
The fact that someone can buy themselves to the top of the tree doesn't mean they are fittest for the position in society they purchase - the world is learning that at present by hoping with the most dangerous world leader ever to occupy that position.
Is there a difference between spending your youth listening to Beatles records and getting pissed up and throwing your knickers in the air at Debs coming out parties ?
The outcome is VERY DIFFERENT for those involved
THE GREAT AND THE GOOD
Your cap-doffing becomes more and more entertaining
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 05:26 AM

O teribe (please note the Latin vocative case), I'm not even going to respond to your tirade. We each have our opinions, and that's quite all right.

Haha Steve, yes, I'm a closet Conservative! :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

"the rich and privileged HAVE been handed stuff on a platter haven't they?"

WHAT have they been handed on a platter?

WHO is it you define as being "the rich and privelged"? If you are talking of the "aristocracy" Senoufou I think that the fact of the matter is that they are a dying breed and have been for some considerable time now

The Rich - well let me see now Victoria and David Beckham are undoubtedly rich - So please Senoufou tell us all what they as individuals were handed on a platter. My understanding is that they both individually worked extremely hard to get to where they are today, and they continue to do so.

The list of the 10 richest people in the UK contains only two people who inherited their wealth and because of that they have never had to "work" so have never robbed anybody of any opportunity, the remaining eight have all been "self-made-men" (Some of remarkably little education Raggy) who were successful entirely through their own efforts - who were handed nothing on a platter.

"I wonder if you have ever met young people from very poor districts, with bad housing and with parent/s on an extremely low income or Benefits? Can you imagine being talented or gifted, with a high intelligence, trying to study in such an environment?"

Grew up with them, went to school with them, worked with them. Generally we all had two parents, and they instilled in us the importance, value and worth of a good education - we experienced no particular hardship in studying, apart, in my case, from my younger sister incessantly playing Beatles records that affected me in as much as I grew to absolutely detest and hate them but yet by some process of osmosis I am still word perfect in most of them. Pity you heeded your father's take on Benenden - he was wrong - when once in a lifetime opportunities arise they should be seen for what they are and should be taken. You would have thrived there and thoroughly enjoyed yourself - if not you could have gone home - nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM

Speaking of ducking, Teribus, I'm still waiting for your list of bullshit degrees.

I'm surprised, Senoufou. I can't recall your ever making a Tory-sounding comment! Voting other than Tory doesn't necessarily make you a socialist, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:27 AM

Education in Britain at present makes the title of this thread a misnomer - there is no choice
One of the missing ingredients is incentive - education for what - the stacking of shelves in Sainsburys people are now forced into because there is nothing else?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:04 AM

Bet you don't enlighten us as to your vast all conquering educational achievements.

Just keep arguing petty semantics terikins, don't worry though, we know you for what you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:52 AM

Awwwww c'mon Raggy, why not share "your facts" with us?

Good reason he doesn't folks - they don't exist. Raggy assumed and presented his assumptions as fact. Once more Raggy opens his mouth and shoves both feet in - talking and making statements from a standpoint of pure ignorance - 100% "Made-Up-Shit".

"The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf."

Your words NUMBNUTS - now back 'em up - WHAT FACT? (Bet he ducks it again)


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:20 AM

But Teribus, the rich and privileged HAVE been handed stuff on a platter haven't they? I agree one has to work for one's success, but things are made much more difficult (and require far more input and determination) if one is starting from relative poverty and deprivation.

I am not 'typical' particularly. (In fact, I'd say I was quite unusual in several ways!) I'm not actually a Socialist, I vote Conservative. And I hope I don't 'whine'.

I wonder if you have ever met young people from very poor districts, with bad housing and with parent/s on an extremely low income or Benefits? Can you imagine being talented or gifted, with a high intelligence, trying to study in such an environment?
My father did so, and it was admirable. But he was exceptionally determined and ferociously strong-minded. Most youngsters would bow to the ethos of their home and district. They're not all Billy Elliots!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:10 AM

Yet more evasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:47 AM

"My youngest is in a special program to help him ......"

Different thing entirely Donuel - please accept my sincere hopes and wishes that that programme is beneficial to him.

"Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged." - Senoufou

Is a typical UK "socialist" whining myth - for them anything wrong in their lives always has to be someone else's fault. As stated in my previous post - There are far, far too many examples of people making a success of their lives from humble and disadvantaged beginnings for your case to hold water, but the message must be that the individual has to work for it - no-one is ever going to hand it to you on a platter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:37 PM

Your shoulders sound fine Senofou. A teacher Teribus may have been referring to, could have been a screamer from his past.
My youngest is in a special program to help him find his identity and confidence that includes professionals dedicated to individual support. We are hoping this opportunity proves beneficial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:31 PM

What evasion Raggy?

You stated facts and you were asked to produce them - now what are they? Or don't you know? If that is the case then you coming out with the following - "The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf." - making statements of such astounding certainty and wittering on about things that you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever, makes you out to be the biggest prat in creation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:21 PM

I wasn't aware that I had an 'inherited chip on my shoulder' Teribus.

I was perfectly capable as a teacher of ensuring that all the pupils in my class were profiting from their lessons. In any class, there is always a selection of different abilities, behaviours, language competence, special needs and so on. I loved all these challenges and I don't think any individuals suffered from my spending time with the ESL students, or with any other group. Believe me, all my pupils were kept hard at it with meaningful work!

I do see your point about it being the students' responsibility to take full advantage of the educational opportunities on offer. But you can't deny that there is a huge difference in standards and a disparity between schools. And one can actually buy a better education for your children if you have the money. That just isn't fair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:47 PM

"Very true people are different and generally they do have equal opportunities and rights. "
Absolute nonsense
A decent education depends entirely on where you live, what kind of schools are in the locality, the financial situation of those schools and - as far as further education is concerned - your family's income.
What world are you living in?
The introduction of University fees has put higher education out of reach of most working families
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:36 AM

Evasion as I expected


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:29 AM

Ehmmm you did write this didn't you Raggy - "The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf."

You referred to "The fact" - so it is up to you to tell us what "The facts" are with regard to my education.

Just dying to see how much of this that you get wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:19 AM

The Victorians imposed arbitrary school subject boundaries and they've stuck largely because universities have dictated from above what they expect schools to churn out. There's a lot more to a well-rounded education than simply a thorough grounding in a "subject." Any subject taken at school or university, given good teaching, will equip students with study skills (i.e., acquiring a lust for knowledge, knowing how to gather, evaluate and interpret information and developing critical thinking) that will serve well across artificial subject lines. Over and above that, we need specialisms, hopefully achieved by getting students enthusiastic about particular fields of endeavour.

When I took Latin at school I thought it was a bullshit subject. Not so. It was the savour in my schooling right up to the time I finished teacher training. Have I "used" Latin? Of course I have. I "use" it all the time. It informs the way I write and understand my own language for a start (helps with those pesky plant names too). I spent weeks doing a palaeobotany course. We studied pollen deposits right from the end of the last glaciation in order to glean the flora of the time and we collected Jurassic fossil gymnosperms, horsetails and ginkgos from the cliffs between Scarborough and Whitby. Have I used that? Well I don't talk about it much, but at the time it fired my imagination for many other aspects of biological science. We did have an amazing teacher. I spent a week studying red campion variability at Malham Tarn. I was never going to turn the deserts green doing that but the real science in that study was incalculable. A woman who was in my university class in 1969 still works at Malham Tarn Field Centre, running courses on various environmental matters. There are no bullshit subjects and no bullshit degrees. There's good education, which means using your skills to go out and grab knowledge for yourself rather than sit there waiting for someone to pour it over you, like that chemistry "teacher" I mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:09 AM

oh go on then ............ just for you ...... sweet Fanny Adams


Now, go on terikins, tell us all about your higher education.


What odds that terikins comes back with S.F.A


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

Rubbisth, T - total rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:00 AM

"The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf." - Raggy

OK then Raggy tell us what the FACTS are in relation to my education.

To my certain knowledge they will prove to be incorrect assumptions on your part - not facts at all - and you have got the brass-neck to witter on about "blinkered, arrogant, blustering"!!!

What odds Raggy comes back with S.F.A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:54 AM

People may differ, but are equal in value and should have equal opportunities and rights.

Very true people are different and generally they do have equal opportunities and rights. Take myself and Kevin Keegan for example I had equal opportunities and rights to become a professional footballer. Only thing was you see Senoufou Kev and I were different - he had the talent and interest required I did not. I could apply the same differential to create a massive list where I had equal opportunity and equal rights but lacked the skill, application and dedication to carry it through. What I did end up doing, I did well and was suitably financially rewarded for doing something that had immense job satisfaction, but not everyone could have done it (7 out of 10 fail at the first hurdle - but all had the exact same opportunity and right to try)

"Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged."

That inherited chip on your shoulder is showing again. Life is not fair Senoufou purely through circumstance - nothing whatsoever to do with "indifference", "arrogance" or any "privileged elite". No-one but no-one had humbler or a more disadvantaged childhood and upbringing than Andrew Carnegie. In personal endeavour and success he outshone any "privileged elite" in the USA and he started with NOTHING. Another Scot who did the same in an entirely different field was Robert Burns. There are far, far too many examples of people making a success of their lives from humble and disadvantaged beginnings for your case to hold water, but the message must be that the individual has to work for it - no-one is ever going to hand it to you on a platter.

I have taught many pupils who had very little English at first. Most of them proved to be extremely attentive, hard-working and quick to learn. They valued the education they were given, and profited by it enormously. They were never a problem to me as their teacher. I enjoyed finding materials and strategies to help them learn English.

Demonstrates the point I was making admirably - how much further would your pupils have got had you not first had to overcome their lack of English? They also probably were encouraged by their parents and it is no doubt from them that they were taught their respect for education and how vitally important it was for them. While you were enjoying finding materials and strategies to help them learn English, what were the pupils in your class who already had a good command of the English language doing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:27 AM

I still think my statement was correct, you do know more about WW1 than SOME on this forum.

The fact you are also blinkered, arrogant, blustering and a bully makes you an oaf.

The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf.

Simples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

I take it that your last was aimed at me Raggy. What does it feel like to have been constantly hammered in discussion by, as you put it - "an uneducated oaf." with "No knowledge or understanding of education"

"An uneducated oaf.", who on the subject of WWI you said this of:

"You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum."

As someone who openly boasts of their total irresponsibility, you are the last person I would take any notice of on any subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM

I asked you to tell me which degrees are the bullshit ones but you've evaded the question. Please also let me have your solution to the issue of teaching children whose first language is other than English. And, since time immemorial, universities and prospective employers have moaned and groaned about the standards of literacy and numeracy of children not only coming from "basic education" but also from sixth forms and even, in the case of some employers, from universities. 'Twas ever thus, and, once again, you appear to be harking back to a golden age when such complaints weren't made. If you have a point to make about what you perceive to be falling levels of literacy and numeracy, I suggest you resort to solid facts and figures, not to Daily Mail-tinged vague whinings from "it was never like this in my day" Mike Ashley types who haven't a clue what they're talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:32 AM

'...life is not fair and people are not equal...'

People may differ, but are equal in value and should have equal opportunities and rights.

Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged.

I have taught many pupils who had very little English at first. Most of them proved to be extremely attentive, hard-working and quick to learn. They valued the education they were given, and profited by it enormously. They were never a problem to me as their teacher. I enjoyed finding materials and strategies to help them learn English.

Where I lived as a child in West London there were huge numbers of Pakistani folk, and their children came to school with us all. So it's not a new thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:10 AM

"The reality is that life is not fair and people are not equal, "
No
The reality is that that is written into the system we live under and while people like you are around, that will never change
The underlying an open arrogance in virtually everything you post only serves to act as an illustration of that fact
If you had actually achieved anything with your own life and had any talents or achievements worth boasting about, I have little doubt you would have trumpeted them from the rooftops before now
As you haven't you are apparently no more than a cap-doffer to your "betters" m'lud (exits right)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:35 AM

And there you have it ..........the "wisdom" of an uneducated oaf.

No knowledge or understanding of education and a touch of racism to boot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 02:39 AM

OK Stu, thanks for the additional information. So from your post that prompted mine, we now see that the following is complete and utter bullshit:

1: "the rest of us were condemned from that point onwards."

2: "the rest of us never got a chance to prove whether we were or not."

3: "folk are denied a chance to achieve their potential whilst being kids; it's all over for them before they're 11 years old."

You yourself have proved that none of the above is actually true, but there again you have omitted to tell us all that you yourself started the process. You provided the motivation.

"Bullshit Degrees" - Degree courses that offer no real worth either to society in general or to the person who holds them. The advantage that people have who have approached higher education once they have started working tend to do so with them having a much more focused aim than someone who has never worked just leaving school, what they intend to do is normally linked to a specific work or career move.

As to how good our education system is today Shaw? Having experienced much the same as yourself at school, back in those days there were no widespread complaints by universities and prospective employers of children coming out of basic education who cannot read, cannot write, cannot communicate and who are on top of that lot innumerate. One thing that teachers are faced with today, that they weren't faced with when I was at school - they did not have to teach their subjects to children whose second language was English.

The reality is that life is not fair and people are not equal, we are all individuals with varying skills and talents, some more marketable than others - one size does not fit all and it never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:50 PM

T-Bird sounds very much like Betsy DeVos. Are they related, do you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:34 AM

"First take a look at the system you have, study it and find the bits of it that work"

My niece and nephew attend an excellent comprehensive which recognises and nurtures the talent of all it's pupils, and many parents choose to send their kids there rather than the posh private place up the road. This really is a good school, it's inclusive, the staff listen to the kids and they are encouraged to pursue their interests and chose careers. One of my friends left there and went on to study medicine and become a doctor. So comprehensive education DOES work. Oh, but the bastard tories have just cut the school's budget by £150,000 a year so as actions speak louder than words, best ignore their bullshit.


"...the only person who could possibly have condemned you from that point onwards you whining mug would be yourself"

Nice. I understand you lack any empathy or compassion Mr T, but not everyone has your boundless self-regard and confidence in their own infallibility. Some folk need to be nurtured not bullied, ignored or ridiculed. It's horrible when it's happening to you and those around you.

I've pursued my own education at my own expense to the point where up to last year I was doing a PhD (before my supervisor was sacked and no replacement found; I had just finished gathering the bulk of my data too) and will continue to do so. I've got three CSEs and a couple of art qualifications so this hasn't been easy (wonderful in many ways though) but I have NEVER given up or accepted the condemnation that I and others were subjected to in school.


"Again I now many who took advantage of these schemes to improve their education and career prospects and job opportunities"

You know one more now then, don't you love?


"Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources."

Inverted snobbery. Lovely. Who are you to judge? Higher education teaches a person many skills apart from expertise in the subject matter under study, as any fule know. Well, not ANY fule obviously.


"but I see that what you have inherited are the self same chips they carried perfectly balanced on each of their shoulders"

As that is utterly unknowable to you, this comment is intended to insult and enrage rather than discuss. What makes you so nasty sometimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:07 AM

Plenty of bullshit philistinism there, Teribus. Tell us more about bullshit degrees why don't you. Which ones? Do you know enough about the differentiation that is required in schools to ensure that all pupils are pushed to the best of their abilities? Doesn't sound like it. Hold bright pupils back and you are instantly shat upon by Ofsted. As for weeding out teachers, I wondered when that was going to come up. In my grammar school we had a general science teacher for three years who sat at the front every lesson while we copied chapters out of a book. He never took us into a lab, not once. My chemistry teacher did nothing except stand at the front dictating notes to us. My English Lit teacher's idea of teaching us Kipps by HG Wells was to read it to us. His idea of teaching us Wordsworth was to force us to learn vast tracts of mind-numbing text under threat of punishment. He called everyone flower or blossom, never by their names. My geography teacher made us copy maps for the whole lesson and expected us to churn them out the next day from memory. The music teacher thought he was Beethoven and he had a temper to match. A classroom terrorist. Another aficionado of vast tracts of copying. Some of my university teachers were even worse, and feedback in lectures was never permitted. A few poor teachers get through the net, admittedly, but the general standard of what is expected of teachers today has never been higher. Most of them these days deserve medals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:45 AM

To all our supposed educationalists - if you want a "comprehensive" system that works.

First take a look at the system you have, study it and find the bits of it that work - that then becomes the model that the bits that don't have to aspire to and be brought up to. That means weeding out poor teachers and replacing them where necessary

Second accept the FACT that life is and people are NOT EQUAL - THEY NEVER HAVE BEEN. People can be given equal opportunity it is then up to them what they wish to do with it.

"Grammar schools promote inequality, end of." All you've missed out there Stu is the Innit? at the end. If you want to encourage excellence, if you want to be at the forefront of technological innovation then you have to identify talent and ability as early as possible then push, encourage and reward them as rapidly as possible.

"the rest of us were condemned from that point onwards." Another bullshit whine and a complete and utter myth - The number of people who succeeded in life who went to Secondary Modern schools is astounding - people do vary enormously, they mature and come into their own at varying times in their lives - the only person who could possibly have condemned you from that point onwards you whining mug would be yourself!

"This idea that kids don't feel discriminated against is condescending and a lie. We were well aware that we were considered second class to the folk in the posh schools and pondered this difference. I've no doubt the kids who went to these schools were bright, but the rest of us never got a chance to prove whether we were or not."

More bullshit - ever heard of Night School? Student Release schemes? Student Apprenticeships? Again I now many who took advantage of these schemes to improve their education and career prospects and job opportunities. Later came the Open University and both employers and trades unions sponsored university places.

Another idiotic belief is that everybody has to go to University. WTF for? Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources.

"By filtering off the brightest children to grammar schools you leave behind those children who would benefit from association with brighter children (as musicians we all know we play 'up' when a skilled player is in the session) and those children who might flower later in school and would otherwise be hampered by being in a school with less vigorous academic standards."

No by filtering off the brightest you keep them interested and engaged. Hold them back and they end up bored and disinterested, they then become disruptive. Your lesser able pupils can also be disruptive through frustration if they are failing to pick things up. All that happens when your quoted suggestion is adopted is a standard dumbing down process across the entire system.

Not really sure how you counter exceptionally poor advice from one's parents, but I see that what you have inherited are the self same chips they carried perfectly balanced on each of their shoulders and their stereotypical myths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:42 AM

I'm not advocating grammar schools per se, only saying that the excellent standard of education I was lucky enough to be able to access in mine should be available to all.

In my day, the very new Comprehensive nearby (one of the first in our area) was 'not bad' but there was still, as you say Steve, the concept of 'failures' applied to its pupils, in the same way that the Secondary Modern in our area was looked upon. Some students were transferred to our grammar school from the other two, if it was felt they'd been wrongly selected as 'failures'. But mostly we were, I'm sure, regarded as academically elite, which is quite wrong.

Our local secondary Comprehensive here in Norfolk is now an 'Academy', and from what I can gather is absolutely excellent. Its intake is unselected, courses are fluidly accessible and all abilities catered for. I don't know the proportion of University places taken up, but there is a sixth-form college attached to the school, all beautifully equipped, and the whole establishment is well-managed by the Headmaster.
If all secondary education could be like this (which I bet it's not in other places, from what one sees and hears, sadly) I would feel things were pretty fair and equal. But it could never compete with the Eton/Oxbridge wealthy upper class lot, who end up in top positions, and effectively comprise 'The Ruling Class'. It's a social matter as well as an educational one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:54 AM

I went to a grammar school in Bolton. It had a sixth form, hardly anyone left at the end of the fourth year (at the age of 15), we took O Levels then, two years later if we stayed on, A Levels. Half of those who stayed on went on to university and we had a good handful every year who made it to Oxbridge. The secondary modern schools, attended by more than 80% of pupils (the eleven-plus failures who were CALLED failures), kept you until the age of 15, routinely. They did not offer O Levels. Now this school-apartheid is the golden-age system that the rose-coloured specs brigade love to hark back to. When they talk about upward mobility, they are talking about that chance for one in five and little chance for four in five. In those secondary moderns there were classes variously called "remove" or "remedial." There were no classroom assistants or individual help for children with learning difficulties and the teacher had little option but to impose tedium with a firm hand. Oh yes, it was a great system all right. When it was swept away it was not replaced with a fairer two-tier system, as it was recognised that such a thing wasn't possible. So I want to know from the grammar school advocates how they know that comprehensive education was such a disaster compared to what we had before. The answer? They don't, because standards actually rose across the board. Go on, look it up. There's been plenty of meddling and underfunding and reorganising and the imposition of repressive bureaucracy on state schools, but, in spite of that, they generally do a pretty good job. Hard to measure standards, of course (and you can't do it easily by looking at exam results - I was an A Level examiner for 12 years and an assistant chief examiner for three, and I saw the exam transformed into a very can-do experience over that time), but start by looking at the explosion in numbers of students now in higher education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:22 AM

I don't think there has been much discussion here about class differences and perceptions (ie Snobbery!)

The parents of my 12 yr olds (Middle School) spoke to me about their ideas for secondary schools for their children. Many used phrases such as "In that school the pupils look scruffy, swear and chew gum!" or, "That school has 'naice' students from a 'better class of family'."
Some intended to choose private education, as "They didn't want their children mixing with the dregs of society." I was often hard put to keep my mouth shut. The subjects/courses available seemed less important than the social ethos of a secondary school, and a wish to avoid certain types of people.
In UK, the 'class system' is still alive and well, and judgements are made the moment someone opens their mouth to speak. Accent, clothing, hairstyle, home address, even origins/parents' family are recognised at lightning speed and the person classified. I find this deplorable and while people say it's slowly changing, I still think it currently pertains.
Of course, it happens in reverse. The reason my father rejected the idea of my going as a scholarship boarder to Benenden (Princess Anne was later one of their pupils) was that he could see that my Cockney accent and working-class origins would probably have caused me to be ostracised.
Most of the MPs in Westminster are what my Norfolk friends would call "Roit posh!" and have never mixed with any class below their own. I suspect that some of them view the rest of us with contempt and as inferior. They've been to exclusive, expensive private schools (Eton etc) and probably Oxbridge, where they continue to cultivate their 'we are the Upper Crust' view of themselves.
Until this class system it completely outdated and obsolete, I don't reckon 'equality of opportunity' can ever be achieved, either in education or anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:54 AM

What evidence do you have that the introduction of comprehensives has lowered overall standards? Or stifled upward mobility? How come that when I was at grammar school (the only choice for parents of eleven-plus passers at the time being which one) about one in twenty kids went on to university, whereas today it's pushing fifty percent?   Easy to say that the education system was "destroyed." Not so easy to come up with the evidence, though, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM

Grammar schools promote inequality, end of. In our school we didn't sit the 11 plus and only a select few in the whole year were allowed to try for a scholarship; the rest of us were condemned from that point onwards.

This idea that kids don't feel discriminated against is condescending and a lie. We were well aware that we were considered second class to the folk in the posh schools and pondered this difference. I've no doubt the kids who went to these schools were bright, but the rest of us never got a chance to prove whether we were or not.

By filtering off the brightest children to grammar schools you leave behind those children who would benefit from association with brighter children (as musicians we all know we play 'up' when a skilled player is in the session) and those children who might flower later in school and would otherwise be hampered by being in a school with less vigorous academic standards.

These issues, combined with the ever-rising cost of tuition fees for higher education mean folk are denied a chance to achieve their potential whilst being kids; it's all over for them before they're 11 years old.

Grammars will not stop this happening, only an integrated and progressive education system with resources distributed fairly and facilities for schools raised to a level befitting one of the countries that leads the world in so many disciplines and industries.

The toffs will still go to their elite schools and won't be sullied by association with the great unwashed, but at least the rest of us might stand a chance to get a good education to be able to compete with them and hold our own in the wider world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:43 AM

Stu, the person who destroyed the education system in England - Tony Crosland:

"If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."

In stating that intent he would rob hundreds of thousands of an excellent avenue for upward mobility. Doubt that? Then look at the number of Labour MPs who had had just such an education yet who wished to see it denied others. Scrapping Grammar Schools and reducing to the lowest common denominator does not benefit the country. Talent, intelligence and ability MUST be encouraged, nurtured and fed - you do not do that by slowing the learning process down to the speed at which the less capable feel comfortable.

Tony Crosland on Private education at the time he wanted to "destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland.":

"I am sure that a definite limit exists to the degree of equality which is desirable. We do not want complete equality of incomes, since extra responsibility and exceptional talent require and deserve a differential reward. We are not hostile, as our opponents sometimes foolishly suggest, to 'detached residences in Bournemouth where some elderly woman has obviously more than a thousand a year'. I do not myself want to see all private education disappear; nor the Prime Minister denied an official car, as in one Scandinavian country; nor the Queen riding a bicycle; nor the House of Lords instantly abolished; nor the manufacture of Rolls-Royces banned; nor the Brigade of Guards, nor Oxford and Cambridge, nor Boodle's nor (more doubtfully) the Royal Yacht Squadron, nor even, on a rather lower level, the Milroy Room, lose their present distinctive character; nor anything so dull and colourless as this."

Charles Anthony Raven Crosland educated at one of the "poshest" Grammar Schools in the country and at Trinity College, Oxford (Two whacks at that, first time he read Classics and the second stint after the war reading Philosophy, Politics and Economics. Became an Oxford Don before entering politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 06:06 PM

Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM

Let me explain that last, rather boorish and vulgar reaction to Teribus' comment. For those of us who come for a certain type of background and who didn't have the access to any education beyond our local comprehensive you can be sure we get fed up with our governments consisting of the PPP grads, endlessly privately educated and privileged people seemingly groomed to rule and earnestly believing they have an almost divine right to do so.

Trotting out the tired trope that everyone criticising the Bullingdon club and their wealthy pals is a lefty is way wide of the mark; the fact is many of us went to shit schools where our careers advice was to get a job in a factory in the city. Our aspirations were ignored at best, ridiculed at worst and those of us that didn't fit or had other issues were treated like shit, the lowest of the low.

These people ARE toffs and they ARE lucky to get the education they have and they don't understand the struggles many of have, often for a lifetime, in trying to get the education that all children and adults should have access to regardless of income or postcode.

This isn't being a lefty, it's about building a better world for us all and education is the key to that aspiration. Defending the likes of people like Cameron to trash the education of others is sickening and insulting to so many who deserve and equally excellent education and will never get one.


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