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BS: Choice of education

Jim Carroll 01 May 17 - 03:35 AM
Senoufou 01 May 17 - 03:24 AM
Teribus 01 May 17 - 02:52 AM
Senoufou 30 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM
Bonzo3legs 30 Apr 17 - 11:31 AM
Senoufou 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM
Bonzo3legs 29 Apr 17 - 09:46 AM
Stu 29 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM
Senoufou 29 Apr 17 - 06:58 AM
Senoufou 29 Apr 17 - 06:51 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Apr 17 - 05:29 AM
Bonzo3legs 28 Apr 17 - 03:12 PM
Stu 27 Apr 17 - 03:04 AM
Greg F. 26 Apr 17 - 08:55 PM
Greg F. 26 Apr 17 - 05:39 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM
Stu 26 Apr 17 - 09:19 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 17 - 09:04 AM
Stu 26 Apr 17 - 07:47 AM
Senoufou 25 Apr 17 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 17 - 01:26 PM
Senoufou 25 Apr 17 - 08:58 AM
Iains 25 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM
Stu 25 Apr 17 - 07:05 AM
Senoufou 25 Apr 17 - 06:12 AM
Jon Freeman 25 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 17 - 05:35 AM
Jon Freeman 24 Apr 17 - 06:56 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 17 - 06:47 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 03:19 PM
Stu 24 Apr 17 - 02:57 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 Apr 17 - 02:42 PM
Stu 24 Apr 17 - 02:35 PM
Iains 24 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 17 - 12:34 PM
saulgoldie 24 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM
Raggytash 24 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM
Raggytash 24 Apr 17 - 08:39 AM
Bonzo3legs 24 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM
Stu 24 Apr 17 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 17 - 02:24 PM
Senoufou 23 Apr 17 - 02:15 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Apr 17 - 01:56 PM
Raggytash 23 Apr 17 - 01:09 PM
Senoufou 23 Apr 17 - 12:41 PM
Raggytash 23 Apr 17 - 12:37 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 17 - 10:52 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:35 AM

"Believe me Mrs Mopp"
Somewhat pompously patronising addressed to somebody with initiative enough to find work to see herself through education.
It appears to be based on the assumption that anybody taking such an initiative is not trustworthy enough to have sought work beyond her abilities
Cleaning and domestic work, alongside the catering industry are notoriously among the most poorly paid and demanding in hours that there are - they always have been - that is why they are sought by students and employers who on't wish to pay too much.
It should be obvious that any employer would very soon be intelligent enough to terminate any such employment, should be bright enough to give somebody a try without making any applicant leap over your particular hurdles
When employers start paying wages that demand a high level of skill and dedication, then they may be in a position to start demanding such qualifications.
As things stand, people are now forced to seek employment for what wages are on offer without choice, whatever their personal inclinations and qualifications
That is the greatest disincentive to a high standard of education in Britain today.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:24 AM

If a private individual engages a cleaner, they of course have every right to inspect the work afterwards and to ensure it meets their standards. In all the little jobs like this I've had, I'm sure the person employing me had a look, and they were obviously satisfied as I never had any complaints, in fact the friends of the clients wanted me to 'do' for them as well. But there was nothing 'official' about it, and no forms to fill in etc. or any pressure, except to get the job done in the time allotted.

The holiday barn job was for a friend, and the 'feedback' was from the guests who stayed in it. Their reviews were always positive about the cleanliness. The friend was very pleased with our work. My husband and I make a great team. :)

The only officialdom was the blinking Tax form for the self-employed. This has to be done in addition to one's Tax affairs as an employee, and it's extremely complicated due to HMRC's dreadful website. Most of it wasn't applicable to us, but the wretched page wouldn't move on unless one entered something in every box. But the box wouldn't accept zero. I had to phone for help. (Nice lady, very kind and helpful,luckily) One gets fined £100 if one doesn't submit the form on time. Thank the Lord we've finished with all that! (I'm too decrepit to work nowadays)


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:52 AM

Senoufou - 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM

I think I would have been perfectly happy and stress-free if I could have earned the same salary cleaning for a living. I've had little cleaning jobs all my life (up until three years ago, cleaning a holiday barn with my husband) One just - well- cleans. No stress, a good physical workout, satisfaction seeing the results (I love a nice clean loo, fridge and oven for example!) No forms or accountability. No Inspections. Perfect. Just call me Mrs Mopp!


Believe me Mrs Mopp if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected and you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard - you being paid would depend upon it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM

My school cleaner husband has regular Appraisals. He brings home the same long form to fill in, with questions such as:-

"Are there any adjustments or changes which could enable you to perform your work more efficiently?"

As it is I who writes the answers for him, I'm tempted to put:-

"Yes. Tell the children not to wee all over the floor in the school toilets. And to stop sticking chewing gum under their desks. Thank you."
Honestly, for just over £7 an hour, he should tell them where to stick their Appraisal!
But the cleaning jobs I did were for private individuals on a self-employed basis. No supervision, complete freedom to complete the work to my own satisfaction. And I always charged £10 per hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 11:31 AM

Funny thing accountability - UK businesses are accountable to HM Revenue & Customs for VAT matters, more so than a layman wooul imagine. Following an undercover visit to one of our clients, HMRC demanded to take away and inspect records for a certain period. The "Inspector" who came to our office looked no more than 15 and was a complete idiot - so accountability can work in your favour!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM

I think I would have been perfectly happy and stress-free if I could have earned the same salary cleaning for a living. I've had little cleaning jobs all my life (up until three years ago, cleaning a holiday barn with my husband) One just - well- cleans. No stress, a good physical workout, satisfaction seeing the results (I love a nice clean loo, fridge and oven for example!) No forms or accountability. No Inspections. Perfect. Just call me Mrs Mopp!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 09:46 AM

Well he's young and he'll have only a few minutes travel from home. In any case most jobs come with stress of some sort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM

Teaching is one of the noblest professions. A society should value it's teachers greatly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 06:58 AM

Forgot to add, I was once offered a Deputy Headship in a huge Primary school, but for reasons stated above, I declined swiftly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 06:51 AM

Three generations of teachers Bonzo! Good for him. But I hope he has nerves of steel! Being a deputy head can be extremely stressful. One is in the firing line from all angles (the Head, pupils, parents and other colleagues) In all the schools where I worked, the poor Deputy had a class in addition to the managerial role. And was always the 'bad cop' tough disciplinarian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 05:29 AM

And he's only 35!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 03:12 PM

I'm pleased to say that my eldest nephew has been appointed as a deputy headmaster - following in his father's and grandfather's footsteps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 03:04 AM

"Never happened in my Grammar School days."

That's because you posh kids were brought up proper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 08:55 PM

And the hits just keep coming!

Politics | Wed Apr 26, 2017 | REUTERS

Trump seeks to shrink federal role in education with new executive order.

President Donald Trump on Wednesday ordered Education Secretary Betsy DeVos to review the U.S. government's role in school policy, which supporters cheered as the first step in creating more local control in education and critics worried could lead to lower quality schools in poorer neighborhoods.

The head of the American Federation of Teachers union, Randi Weingarten, said the current education law already reduces federal power over schools.

"What the new law doesn't do is abandon the requirement for the federal government to protect the civil rights of our students, even if those rights run counter to what states and districts want to do."


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 05:39 PM

The more you know, the better informed your opinion is.

Informed opinion is passé.

I give you Twitler, who "love[s] the poorly educated' and vice versa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM

That is a very great shame. Never happened in my Grammar School days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 09:19 AM

It's odd that these days trying to get an education is frowned upon, and if you aspire to academia when you come from a very non-academic background some seem to think you are stuck up, when in reality people just love to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 09:04 AM

He was Sen, but I don't think my Grandfather was unique; his generation becaame educated becuse of their politics
MacColl used to describe how, during the depression, unemployed workers would shelter in the Libraries and work their way through the most unlikely literature - he chose Engles because of his Salford connection (Condition of the Working Class in England sourced most of its information from there)
Walter Pardon had worked his way through all of Dickens and Hardy at least half a dozen times (Except Tess - he couldn't bear the idea of her being hanged)
He once told us, "The two greatest crimes in English literature was the hanging of Tess and the drowning of Maggie Tulliver (Mill on the Floss"
My father once asked me shortly after I left school whether I had read 'The Grapes of Wrath'
When I said I hadn't, he said, "You're lucky - you've got that in front of you".
He was right
Jim Carroll".


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 07:47 AM

The more you know, the better informed your opinion is. Higher education is a struggle for potless old thicko's like me but there's no doubt it's changed my life for the better, even though it's floundered through no fault of my own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 03:02 PM

wow Jim! What a wonderful man your grandfather was!
I admire anyone who has had very little in the way of educational opportunities, but who doggedly pursues knowledge through sheer determination and a burning interest. He must have been a most interesting person.

I know I harp on about my Ivorian husband, but I'm so proud of him. He had a terribly poor 'education' and was half-starved for most of his childhood. On coming to UK he learned English (he'd already had to learn French, although Malinke is his native language) Then Life In The UK test, which is extremely difficult; even Brits would find it hard. He took his driving test and passed the second time. Now he spends hours online learning about Politics, Astronomy, Science, Geography and Political History. I feel so sad that he never had the chance to get a really good education. I'm almost sure he could have succeeded at University, he's very intelligent.
He's a school cleaner on minimum wage, and sees the wonderful equipment and facilities in the school where he works. It's rather poignant for him. He often says how lucky young students are here in the West.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 01:26 PM

As a young man my Grandfather became obsessed with education, believing it to be the way working people could change the world for the better - as a merchant seaman he helped set up the first seaman's branch of The Workers Education Association
Throughout his life he loved Shakespeare, and for his own interest he filled notebooks full of his personal analysis of the plays, using down-to-earth language written in his native Liverpool vernacular
When my grandmother died he remarried and moved to Stoke on Trent where a couple of local students learned of his interest and arranged for him to visit the college regularly to talk of his interest (insisting he didn't attempt to 'poshify' his accent - he couldn't have done so if he had wanted to.
His talks became legendary and were reported in the local newspaper.
I still have a couple of his notebooks
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 08:58 AM

You're quite right of course, Iains. Very specialised jobs such as doctors, teachers. nurses, plumbers, electricians and so on will always require specialist training and knowledge. But a lot of this can be polished up and acquired by experience during the Probationary period after the degree. In my case, I was a Probationer Teacher for two years (in Scotland) My sister did a year's clinical experience (being on call in a hospital for over 100 hours a week sometimes!) Apprentices are usually attached to a time-served 'master' until they have enough working knowledge to go it alone. All this counts as 'education' in my view.

I think the secret is never to stop learning. When my elderly father died, he had been studying French and bridge, and going to several evening classes. He was also learning about car mechanics.
After retirement, I decided to learn British Sign Language, and Mandarin Chinese, and attended several short courses about Geology of the Hebrides, Medieval Cathedrals of Europe, The Life and Times of Charles Dickens for example. I even gave three lectures myself to our Ladies'Group:- 'Travels In West Africa', 'Prison Visiting' and 'Edinburgh Royal Infirmary'.
If one can keep on being incurably curious, one will naturally seek knowledge and one way or another keep on learning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM

All degrees provide education, in addition some provide vocational training. I would be hesitant to use a doctor with a qualification in mathematics rather than medicine. Such a qualification would be useful in numerous other areas however. A qualification in Runic Studies would be poor preparation for a career in plumbing.
It must be obvious that certain career paths require focused studies, irregardless as to whether it is brain surgery or being a sparkie. They are not places for amateurs, no matter how well meaning. Other careers tolerate a more generalist education. Rightly or wrongly that is the system we have. What is tacitly accepted but never discussed is where education(ie pursuit of knowledge, analytical thinking etc. etc.) separates from vocational training.In reality it breaks along the lines of Arts versus sciences. As was said previously, all education is beneficial but for certain professions it is required to be specific. The only way to change this would be to regard schooling up to degree level as education to be followed by perhaps another period of vocational training. This would be good for masking the high unemployment rate among the young and also create debt slaves with a yet greater burden.
    The present system also overlooks the fact that some young people run through the secondary education system and achieve zero in the way of qualifications. Is this an area that should be brushed out of site? the creation of an alienated underclass of increasingly unemployable youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:05 AM

...but all types of learning are never wasted"

THIS. Most intelligent thing written on MudCat for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 06:12 AM

I agree Steve. There was/is a bit of a stigma about 'Vocational Courses', which there shouldn't be of course.

My feisty sister tackled the Head at our Grammar School to allow her to do Woodwork & Metalwork alongside her more academic subjects. She's much brighter than I, was obviously going to University, and the Head was astonished. She reckoned they would be very useful things to learn (they were!) He gave in and she was brilliant, much to the disgust of the boys. (Sexism was alive and well in those days)

I wanted to change my Uni course to Nursing Studies (a degree course) but my Director of Studies was equally astonished, and my traditional father forbade it. I had to do a Post Grad teaching qualification for a year after graduation. I still think a 3yr Teachers' Training College vocational course would have been more useful to me. (or entry as an SRN student in a hospital!)

I really think Studies should be just that, not separated into 'academic' or 'vocational', and not necessarily leading to anything in particular. What one does after receiving the qualification is up to oneself. People change their minds, circumstances alter, other opportunities arise, but all types of learning are never wasted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

A very reasonable argument Steve. Thanks for that one. On reflection, one of my brothers (the only one who had to go through the I think it was called the Kent test - a sort of 11 plus - I, the eldest and next one down went Welsh comp first and moved with the "A stream qualification" and we were back in Wales when youngest brother started secondary) might have been written off by the system. I am aware that on a parents day my mother asked about science in the secondary modern to get a sort of "kid's here can't do it/aren't interested" type response.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 05:35 AM

"Vocational" sometimes has a ring of "also-ran" about it. Not so much a sense of my following a calling, more a sense of I can only use my hands, not my brain. Can't do the hard subjects. At my school, if you weren't much good at Latin you had to do tech drawing instead. If you were hopeless at French (or badly-taught, you decide) you did woodwork. Too weak for physics and chemistry? "Applied science" for you! Great if you're following a course of action that you're very enthusiastic about. Not so good if you're steered down it simply because you can't keep up with the swots!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:56 PM

One view seems to me some of of us may be more suited to one line or other, Steve. Me, I was certainly capable of playing the school system (in my case actually 2 years comp in Llandudo followed by a Grammar in Tunbridge Wells) until dropping out after the start of A level in science subjects but I think would have preferred to be more hands on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:47 PM

Why does there need to be a vocational/academic line, Jon? Just asking...


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

OK I (as a non academic) will bite.

I'd guess that the most commonly questioned degree is "media studies" (whatever that really involves) and I certainly do wonder why a relation got a degree in something essentially woodworking with a bit of design.

My (perhaps faulty) memory seems to suggest that there was a push towards more degrees with Blair but I do wonder whether there are things better treated as purely vocational.

I'm not going to argue that there isn't a place for say both a computer scientist and an "engineer" who has come up from a different route; and will state that someone I particular enjoy chatting to was a research scientist who has even talked to me about his work on strains of yeast for the brewing industry.

I'm not out to dismiss anyone in this thread but am enquiring (particularly from the academics) where they see the sort of vocational/academic line for qualifications,


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 03:19 PM

"That is a bit of a broad brush statement. It leaves out the vital component of any person's education, namely motivation"
That is my point Iains
Education has retreated to a position of training for looking for (largely non-existent) jobs, much as it was around the time I was leaving school
Nearly ten years later, when my youngest sisters were at school, the comprehensive system had broadened education to encompass the arts,certainly far more than it did in my experience.
Now it seems to have gone back to its old ways.
Discipline is immaterial really- all part of the 'teaching by ote' method.
Teachers are getting better - or certainly more dedicated in a broader sense - I know many of them though my involvement in music, but talking to them and reading threads about 'despairing teachers leaving' give the impression of an uphill battle.
The various attempts to curb teachers down the years really haven't helped.
I went to a secondary mod school that thought it was a grammer school due to the make up of its pupils - part failed middleish class from Speke village and the vast bulk from the overspill housing estate where I lived.
I probably got more encouragement to find out about Shakespere and Dickens from the 'failures' than I did from most of the teachers (with notable exceptions)
I could quote huge chunks of Shakespere off the top of my head because I'd been taught to learn it parrot-fashion.
It took a lovely girl from the village to get me to enjoy it (and her!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:57 PM

Nowt to do with me sir! I'm used to inverted snobbery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:42 PM

"source, sort and interpret interpretation is primary level at best"

I'm so sorry but I choose to spend my time on infinitely less anorakic activities - if it's all the same to you!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:35 PM

"but then I have long experience rather than some utterly useless degree and no experience!!!!!"

True, but your ability to source, sort and interpret interpretation is primary level at best and this leaves you sounding like a ranting old man falling back on old Daily Mail bile-filled tropes rather than fact. Shame you missed out on the degree, you might have been a fine debater.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM

Jim
"The internet seems to have helped create the strange contradiction of access to vastly far more information but far less incentive to use it."

That is a bit of a broad brush statement. It leaves out the vital component of any person's education, namely motivation. Sufficient motivation can overcome many educational disadvantages. This is not ideal obviously, but if all had the same opportunities there would still be winners and losers. Some thrive in an educational environment some detest it. Our present system(UK) provides elitist secondary education in the private sector, underfunding in the public sector and very little to help those not academically inclined. Is funding the real problem though? The secondary school I attended had one extension built in 60 years. The swimming pool was still suffering bomb damage from ww2 in the mid sixties. The main school was a victorian gothic monstrosity. Investment in facilities and equipment was minimal yet exam results were entirely reasonable. Also I can remember no school inspections and behaviour in the classroom was exemplary. To answer back was simply not done as the outcome of such a deed would be too painful. Could it be that in the 50's and 60's most male teachers of an age had been in the military and expected discipline. Today there is far more money, lax discipline and pass rates for a levels and degrees are ever higher and grades reach the stratosphere. Are teachers getting better, kids more intelligent, or are standards slipping?


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 12:34 PM

Spot on Saul. Here we cut funding for state comprehensive schools, set up ideologically-conceived "free schools" that don't have to follow any of the rules, get all enthusiastic about setting up selective grammar schools for the brightest elite and allow fee-paying schools charitable status.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

Apologies for coming in to this thread later; 'puter has been acting up, yada, yada, yada. (And also, in my scanning, I have seen quite a bit of the "heat" of name-calling" rather than the "light" of intelligent discourse.) But...

Here in the states, "choice" is the "spin" reference to "getting the public subsidize (mostly white) families for sending their children to private religious schools where, most likely, 'creationism' and other 'subjects' are taught and allows these families to leave the 'more difficult' students to the public schools who have to take all comers, thereby allowing public officials to try to further defund public schools because they now have fewer students who cost more per student than they used to."

So, yeah, "freedom to choose," that wonderfully false and deceptive "free market" goto notion that really isn't.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM

That's just you getting old Jim :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM

Ideally, education should go far beyond training for work
Pope had it just about right when he wrote:
"'Tis education forms the common mind; just as the twig is bent the tree's inclined."
I remember envying my 9-year younger sisters when they attended the local Comprehensive school - far more wide-reaching than my own Secondary Modern drilling.
I can't pronounce with any authority nowadays, but I'm left with the distinct impression that all that is a thing of the past for most kids today.
The internet seems to have helped create the strange contradiction of access to vastly far more information but far less incentive to use it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 08:39 AM

Envy is such an ugly trait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM

"Don't judge others as you judge yourself. Not everyone is on the scrounge, some folk fall on hard times through no fault of their own."

As I did on each of the 3 times I was made reduntant - each time I sent out 500 + letters - remember them?? I found work by my own effort, but then I have long experience rather than some utterly useless degree and no experience!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 07:02 AM

"I'm very glad I took up accountancy, so never been on the benefits scrounge!"

Don't judge others as you judge yourself. Not everyone is on the scrounge, some folk fall on hard times through no fault of their own.



"Now you tell me of what benefit a degree in such a subject would be and whether, or not, the holder of such a degree would ever recoup the investment made in obtaining it"

I suspect you might struggle to understand an answer to this, but I'll try. Higher education is about far more than the subject that you are studying. You learn a huge number of skills that otherwise you might not ever be able to, and through the process of learning and research you challenge your own opinions and change the way you view the world.

When I did my first undergrad course in geology (in my 30's), it changed the way I looked at the world, literally. A car journey became more than getting from A to B, but became a journey through time, biology, topography and the processes that create the landscape and influences what lives in it, from a blade of grass to a city.

You might not see the relevance of a degree in Urban Dance, but this is due to your ignorance of the subject and what motivates people to study it, and your ignorance doesn't render it less relevant to our society. Recuperating the cost of the degree shouldn't be an issue for the student, by having people educated to a high standard our economy is stronger and we can lead the world in science and culture. That's all the reason anyone needs, and to make the students pay for it is idiotic, counter-productive and ignorant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:24 PM

I didn't ask you for "an example." I asked you for a list. You said that "most study bullshit degrees." Well urban dance might just account for a very few hundred at most, if that, out of an annual student intake of half a million per annum. My maths isn't what it used to be, but that isn't "most."

Are you floundering??


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:15 PM

Ha Bonzo, has your wife managed to get those ...er...knickers off yet?
(For those puzzled by this remark, please see the leg ulcers thread!)

Hope she's getting along well and the ulcers are healing nicely.
My mother had a leg ulcer, and it was actually quite painful. She was given some special powder to dry it up (no idea what it was) and luckily it soon healed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 01:56 PM

"Knowledge isn't a dog biscuit for which one has to jump obligingly to receive" - both my wife & I think that's a wonderful saying, definitely filed away for use at the right time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 01:09 PM

On the contrary Senofou, if anyone should apologise it should be the unmitigated, aggressive, hectoring Terikins.

FULL STOP

I doubt he will, he perceives such as a sign of weakness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 12:41 PM

Have a look at the UEL (University of East London) syllabus of Urban Dance. It's brilliant. And the last section outlines possible career choices, of which there are many. They mention several of their graduates' successes in the world of dance.
To be honest, I would have loved such a study opportunity (I adore dance) and this course is now extremely popular.

My degree is a Master of Arts in French Language and English Literature, with Linguistics and Phonetics thrown in. I became a Primary School teacher, and this was in no way related to my degree, but was always what I wanted to do (that or nursing!)

One shouldn't bar students from access to any kind of education or study merely because they won't get a job at the end of it. Knowledge isn't a dog biscuit for which one has to jump obligingly to receive.

Teribus, I know your username is derived from 'Teribus ye teri Odin', which was the battlecry of the men of Hawick at Flodden. I apologise for my lighthearted attempt at humour in treating it as a Latin word. I expect I was just showing off (a tendency in me my sister has often tried to quash!) I'm sorry if it offended you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 12:37 PM

Your comment merely serves to demonstrate how little you know or understand about higher education.

No surprise at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:52 AM

Sorry Shaggy but your pal Shaw asked me for an example of a "Bullshit Degree" course that was of neither use nor ornament - I think a Degree in Urban Dancing fits the bill fairly well.

The Urban Dictionary has two definitions for the term Urban Dancing:

1: "to move with unhindered grace around an area with the presence of another enjoying the same activity."

2: "Humping someone in public"

Now you tell me of what benefit a degree in such a subject would be and whether, or not, the holder of such a degree would ever recoup the investment made in obtaining it - As a practitioner of 1, I'd say with difficulty, applying the knowledge obtained studying 2, you'd probably be debt free inside of six months.

People were conned into believing that a university degree - ANY university degree would increase your earning potential - IT DOESN'T, but hundreds of thousands swallowed the lie and have ended up in debt because of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM

I will raggetytashety!!


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