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BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians

Jack Campin 17 Apr 17 - 07:23 PM
Joe Offer 17 Apr 17 - 09:13 PM
Rapparee 17 Apr 17 - 10:02 PM
Joe Offer 17 Apr 17 - 10:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Apr 17 - 01:02 AM
Teribus 18 Apr 17 - 02:10 AM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 17 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 04:23 AM
Stu 18 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 17 - 08:40 AM
Donuel 18 Apr 17 - 09:26 AM
Teribus 18 Apr 17 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM
Stu 18 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 11:28 AM
robomatic 18 Apr 17 - 03:02 PM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 17 - 03:09 PM
Greg F. 18 Apr 17 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 17 - 04:36 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 17 - 05:55 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 17 - 06:02 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 17 - 06:12 PM
Donuel 18 Apr 17 - 06:38 PM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 17 - 06:40 PM
Greg F. 18 Apr 17 - 06:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 17 - 07:34 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 17 - 08:01 PM
robomatic 18 Apr 17 - 08:36 PM
Donuel 18 Apr 17 - 08:40 PM
robomatic 18 Apr 17 - 09:08 PM
Teribus 19 Apr 17 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 17 - 04:11 AM
robomatic 19 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM
robomatic 19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM
Donuel 19 Apr 17 - 08:58 PM
robomatic 19 Apr 17 - 11:36 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 05:41 AM
Stu 20 Apr 17 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM
Donuel 20 Apr 17 - 08:57 AM
Stu 20 Apr 17 - 10:50 AM
robomatic 20 Apr 17 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 12:12 PM
robomatic 20 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 01:59 PM
ollaimh 21 Apr 17 - 12:49 AM
robomatic 21 Apr 17 - 09:53 AM
robomatic 15 Jun 17 - 08:03 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM
robomatic 16 Jun 17 - 02:30 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 17 - 03:23 PM
robomatic 16 Jun 17 - 11:23 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 17 - 04:09 AM
bobad 17 Jun 17 - 09:03 AM
Greg F. 17 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 17 - 11:49 AM
bobad 17 Jun 17 - 04:41 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 17 - 05:09 PM
bobad 17 Jun 17 - 07:13 PM
robomatic 17 Jun 17 - 10:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 17 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 17 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 17 - 08:30 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 17 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 17 - 10:37 AM
robomatic 18 Jun 17 - 07:41 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 17 - 02:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 17 - 06:16 AM
robomatic 19 Jun 17 - 06:15 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 17 - 03:18 AM
robomatic 20 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 17 - 12:22 PM
Donuel 20 Jun 17 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 17 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM
Teribus 20 Jun 17 - 03:08 PM
robomatic 21 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 17 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 17 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 17 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 17 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 17 - 05:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 17 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 17 - 07:18 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 17 - 09:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM
Donuel 21 Jun 17 - 11:59 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 17 - 01:05 PM
robomatic 21 Jun 17 - 06:23 PM
Donuel 21 Jun 17 - 09:27 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 17 - 06:18 AM
Donuel 22 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 17 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 17 - 09:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 17 - 11:22 AM
robomatic 22 Jun 17 - 01:43 PM
Teribus 22 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 17 - 03:28 PM
Teribus 22 Jun 17 - 03:42 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 17 - 02:12 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 17 - 03:16 AM
Teribus 23 Jun 17 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 17 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 17 - 09:53 AM
robomatic 23 Jun 17 - 02:57 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 17 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 17 - 06:38 AM
Teribus 24 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM
robomatic 24 Jun 17 - 07:26 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM
robomatic 25 Jun 17 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM
Teribus 26 Jun 17 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 04:50 AM
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Subject: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:23 PM

From the UN's archives. Telegram from North Korea describing the American atrocities of January 1951:

PDF of translation from Russian

Makes everything Assad has been accused of look pretty small time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:13 PM

I gotta say, Jack, that posts from you and from Jim Carroll often seem to have the word "agitprop" written all over them. For those of you who haven't read Jack's PDF, it's a cable from the Korean People's Republic about the bombing of Pyongyang on 3 January 1951 by 82 B-17 Flying Fortresses of the US Air Force. And yes, it is profuse with the adjectives of propaganda - but it tells the truth.

Still (as always), Jack has a good point. In March 2015, the Washington Post ran an article titled, "The U.S. war crime North Korea won't forget":
    By Blaine Harden March 24, 2015
    Blaine Harden, a former Post reporter, is the author of the book "The Great Leader and the Fighter Pilot."

    North Korea cheered this month when a man with a knife and a history of violent behavior slashed the face of Mark Lippert, the U.S. ambassador to South Korea. The attack in Seoul was "a knife shower of justice," North Korea said, praising it as "deserved punishment for warmonger United States."

    If that sounds mean-spirited, consider this: For years, North Korea has taught schoolchildren to bayonet effigies of U.S. soldiers. Under its young dictator, Kim Jong Un, the government has suggested it was prepared to nuke Washington, Austin and Southern California. More than 40 years ago, Kim Il Sung, the "Great Leader" who founded the family dictatorship that rules North Korea, said there was "no secret" about his country's behavior: "What is most important in our preparations [for war] is to educate all the people to hate U.S. imperialism."

    Where does the hate come from?

    Much of it is cooked up daily in Pyongyang. Like all dictatorial regimes, the Kim family dynasty needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. Such a threat rationalizes massive military spending and excuses decades of privation, while keeping dissenting mouths shut and political prisons open.

    The hate, though, is not all manufactured. It is rooted in a fact-based narrative, one that North Korea obsessively remembers and the United States blithely forgets.

    The story dates to the early 1950s, when the U.S. Air Force, in response to the North Korean invasion that started the Korean War, bombed and napalmed cities, towns and villages across the North. It was mostly easy pickings for the Air Force, whose B-29s faced little or no opposition on many missions.

    The bombing was long, leisurely and merciless, even by the assessment of America's own leaders. "Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — 20 percent of the population," Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed "everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another." After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops.

    Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home. U.S. press coverage of the air war focused, instead, on "MiG alley," a narrow patch of North Korea near the Chinese border. There, in the world's first jet-powered aerial war, American fighter pilots competed against each other to shoot down five or more Soviet-made fighters and become "aces." War reporters rarely mentioned civilian casualties from U.S. carpet-bombing. It is perhaps the most forgotten part of a forgotten war.

    The Kims, though, have kept memories of the war and the bombing terrifyingly fresh. North Korean state media dress up the historical record in a Big Lie, claiming that Americans and South Korea sneakily started the Korean War and that Kim Il Sung brilliantly won it against overwhelming odds. (The Chinese don't get much credit for fighting the United States to a draw.) State media warn that, sooner or later, the Americans will strike again.

    "It is still the 1950s in North Korea and the conflict with South Korea and the United States is still going on," says Kathryn Weathersby, a scholar of the Korean War. "People in the North feel backed into a corner and threatened."

    There is real value in understanding this paranoid mind-set. It puts the calculated belligerence of the Kim family into context. It also undermines the notion that North Korea is merely a nut-case state.

    Since World War II, the United States has engaged in an almost unbroken chain of major and minor wars in distant and poorly understood countries. Yet for a meddlesome superpower that claims the democratic high ground, it can sometimes be shockingly incurious and self-absorbed. In the case of the bombing of North Korea, its people never really became conscious of a major war crime committed in their name.

    Paying attention in a democracy is a moral obligation. It is also a way to avoid repeating immoral mistakes.

    And if North Korea ever does change, if the Kim family were overthrown or were to voluntarily loosen its chokehold on information, a U.S. apology for the bombing could help dispel 65 years of hate.


It's easy to scapegoat North Korea, because the Kim family dynasty has certainly not made North Korea into a model citizen of the world. As the Post article says, "Much of it is cooked up daily in Pyongyang. Like all dictatorial regimes, the Kim family dynasty needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. Such a threat rationalizes massive military spending and excuses decades of privation, while keeping dissenting mouths shut and political prisons open."

But there is good reason for most third-world nations to view the United States as villain. The "Ugly American" still exists.

As a pacifist, I view any bombing of any city as barbaric. Total-destruction bombing of cities became matter-of-course during World War II, and it's easy to think nowadays of such bombings as commonplace inconveniences of war.

But the total destruction of any city is still barbaric, no matter if it's done by the "good guys" or the "bad guys."

So, although I question the agitprop tone of Jack's thread and post, I have to agree with him - although I'd say it more gently.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:02 PM

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP10.HTM

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/02/10/Analyst-North-Korea-executed-purged-thousands-after-Jang-Song-Thaek-killed/6921486736858/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/preventing-a-massacre-in-north-koreas-gulags/2014/07/25/b9d6a3fe-1284-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html?utm_term=.776f902166d6

https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/KW-atrocities-Report.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:04 PM

And so, Rap, do you have an opinion on this, or are you just showing off your ability to copy-paste URLs?

It's easy to counter URLs with URLs, but where's the truth, and why do you think it's true?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 01:02 AM

I don't think anyone is in favour of killing defenceless civilians.

However once the genie is out of the bottle and war is declared, such things happen. Only a fool or liar would pretend otherwise.

In the post war period , it did seem that all a country 's leader had to do was prove they were a big enough bastard to attract major military back up from Russia or America.

You paid your money you took your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 02:10 AM

Joe, those who chose war over peace have to accept that that decision can attract certain consequences. The North set out with a deliberate plan to attack and invade the South and they did that with the full knowledge and support of both PRC & the USSR. The war, the chosen action of the North and it's supporters resulted in ~2.5 million deaths. Up until the arrival of "volunteer" units of the Chinese Army in the war the bombing policy had been strictly military targets only, after their intervention it changed - things do in time of war - large centres of population also happen to contain main transport hubs and central administrative infrastructure vital for the mass movement of troops and the supplies that they need. Was it the correct decision? Ask the people of South Korea, it was after all they who would have been coerced into the joys of rule by the Kim dynasty had the UN failed to protect them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:49 AM

Teribus, remember that Korea was conquered and cruelly occupied by Japan, then divided after the war by the US and the Soviets. They fought to contest a division of their own country that was brought about by external powers. And yet you claim that North Korea got what they deserved by opposing that division.
I don't think so.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:23 AM

Draw a line down the middle of a country and you need to set up a body-bag industry that will last for generations - that is the lesson of history the post Empire world has never taken in
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM

"Joe, those who chose war over peace have to accept that that decision can attract certain consequences"

Especially for innocent people who have very little or no control over what their leaders so. Leaders who don't care about the death and suffering they inflict on others or others inflict on their populations. There is a moral issue here that being at war does not render irrelevant, but rather should guide how a nation approaches conflict.

In this case, we all have a duty to oppose the mass murder of civilians and not to blame the victims for the actions of the few. Is killing 20% of a civilian population because of the actions of a political and military elite justifiable? For my part, nothing justifies the wilful murder of innocents in war or otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:40 AM

However once the genie is out of the bottle and war is declared, such things happen. Only a fool or liar would pretend otherwise.

Of course these days nobody seems to bother about actually declaring war, they just attack without any warning, like the Japanese did at Pearl Harbour.

It should never be forgotten that in the undeclared and illegal war against Vietnam the Americans killed far more civilians than have died in Syria, and used chemical weapons that caused horibble damage to generations of Vietnamese, which is continuing to this day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:26 AM

Is there really anything new about the mass murder of defenseless civilians?

Is there science that provides answers for this recurring phenomenon?
Yes there is.

Until this knowledge is understood by the majority of the world and used as a tool/weapon against senseless holocaust, we are all prey to the next lie, rumor and hate scare.

This knowledge is not the detailed understanding of a holocaust event. It is far more simple than that.

I will not scold a soul for what they know. Knowledge is still the key.

Congratulations all for taking the first step by asking the questions.

Sincerely Don
-warning pre-emptively against the next fake "Pueblo" incident-


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:45 AM

Number of points here folks that you seem to have missed:

"those who chose war over peace have to accept that that decision can attract certain consequences"

Obviously Joe & Stu think that in stating "Those who chose war over peace" I was referring to innocent people - I WAS NOT - it is plain enough in English I was referring to Those who chose war over peace - In the case of the Korean War those people were Kim Il-sung, Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin - They after all prepared and planned for the damn thing for the best part of three years.

The Kim dynasty does not give a fig for the people of Korea - North or South of the DMZ so Joe IF you think it would have been right to allow Kim Il-sung's aggression to stand then all I can say is that you are a complete and utterly heartless and inhumane fuckin' idiot considering the degree of totally needless privations and horrendous suffering that have been endured by the people of North Korea under their rule.

Only the people of North Korea can rid themselves of the regime that has enslaved them in their "workers paradise" - note no communists or socialists will criticise the regime - now why is that? Is that the sort of "equality" you seek?

Similarly the "Palestinian" Leaders do not give a hoot about the "Palestinians" as long as the game stays where it is now THEY get to share out the billions in aid without having to do anything - money for old rope. Perhaps one of our pro-Palestinian forum members can explain to us all why President Mahmoud Abbas personally should receive a tax on every single packet of cigarettes and tobacco sold in the West Bank instead of that tax being paid into their Treasury? I also think he gets some sort of rake-off from every bag of cement as well.

Unfortunately, once you have gone to war, your first concern is to protect your own population and your own troops, you do that by making the war as short as possible and by defeating and expelling enemy forces from your territory. To do that you have to attack, degrade and destroy your enemies means of waging war - in doing all that people die, that is the reality of war. Alternatively, if attacked you could just immediately surrender then live with the consequences no matter how horrific.

Tell me Stu in what war were 20% of the civilian population killed? Certainly not the Korean War (Population of the Korean Peninsula in 1951 was something in the order of 29.6 million people) Where total casualties reached 2.5 million. I think that the closest to your 20% would be the total deaths military and civilian suffered by the Poles during the Second World War which was somewhere around 17%, the Soviets suffered around 13.7% military and civilian deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM

"The Kim dynasty does not give a fig for the people of Korea
Neither do you, or any other people, from your racist rant
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM

Terbius:

Read the original post for the 20% of population killed ref, if you can be arsed.


"Unfortunately, once you have gone to war, your first concern is to protect your own population and your own troops"

This isn't the case though, as we know. The leaders of N. Korea couldn't give a stuff about the suffering of their population, so the moral imperative is with the opposing side to ensure as few innocents are killed as possible. Otherwise, what distinguishes our leaders from theirs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:28 AM

We now live in a world totally dependent on our getting on with our neghbours, both for peace and for trade, so "our own population" has to be humanity as a whole if we are to survive as a species.
However Mao and Stalin regarded their people, those who they replaced cared even less
The "Soviet Gulags" were long in existence before the Bolsheviks took power.
Russia was a number of semi-feudal States run by a family who regarded their subjects with less interest than they did their animals - a peasant was replaceable, a good horse was not.
The Russian people had two alternatives, stay in a war that was slaughtering millions or take another road
Whatever the mistakes and betrayals - those countries moved from feudal repressive states to world leaders, despite a civil war and another world war
China was the same - go read William Hinton's, 'Fan Shen' to see how well off the peasants were under feudalism
Much of what went wrong can be traced back to outside interference - as Churchill and others put it so eloquently "New Germany (under Hitler) will serve as a barrier to the threat of Bolshevism"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:02 PM

Communism in the Soviet Union and Mao's China added a new misery hitherto impossible for the feudal states they supposedly improved upon. The phenomenon of mind control.
Check out "Darkness at Noon" by Koestler. Or the to-the-point comment of Reinaldo Arenas:"although both give you a kick in the ass, in the communist system you have to applaud, while in the capitalist system you can scream."
Don't forget that the Communists under the name of Bolsheviks or People's Army took over by force from actual Democratic / Socialist revolutionaries, and under them misery and death was far greater than under the feudal societies that came from the Nineteenth Century. Think of the body counts from the mass starvation imposed Under Stalin, Mao, and Kim. They run easily into the double digits of millions.
It is incredibly diversionary to put the dead under warfare as anything close to the incredible waste of one's own population as occurred under Communism purely for its own continuance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:09 PM

Teribus, you say, "The Kim dynasty does not give a fig for the people of Korea." Nonetheless, according to your logic, the US was justified in killing hundreds of thousands of those Korean people that the Kim dynasty doesn't care about, either.

I don't buy that. The destruction of a city of civilians by bombing, is a crime against humanity.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:10 PM

"Crime against humanity"?

Unless, of course, its the untold thousands of civilians killed by the U.S. in Iraq under the auspices of Geo. W. Bush.

Or, unless its the thousands of Palestinians killed by the Israeli government.

Or, unless...............oh, never mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:36 PM

Unfortunately, once you have gone to war, your first concern is to protect your own population and your own troops, you do that by making the war as short as possible and by defeating and expelling enemy forces from your territory.

This must always be carried out in a way that minimises death and injury to non-combatants. Failure to attempt to observe that is a war crime, recognised as such by law, though rarely dealt with as such in the case of those on the winning side.

Incidentally I'm not sure when the UK has in the course of its existence been engaged in a war that involved "expelling enemy forces from your territory", apart arguably from the Falklands. As for the USA the last time would have been in the American Revolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:55 PM

"This isn't the case though"????

Are you kidding Stu?

"what distinguishes our leaders from theirs?"

A little thing called exercising the inalienable right of self-defence Stu.

North Korean plotted and planned their aggressive invasion of South Korea with the PRC & the USSR for three years. It was the United Nations that responded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:02 PM

"This must always be carried out in a way that minimises death and injury to non-combatants."

Really Kevin? All sounds very nice but could you perhaps explain how this is realistically achieved in time of war?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:12 PM

Joe in time of war to protect your own civilians (In the case of the Korean War the citizens of South Korea) the UN were perfectly justified in December 1951 shifting the focus of their strategic bombing policy to reflect hitting targets inside North Korea that would reduce the ability of the North to move hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops through their country and down into South Korea. That meant hitting airfields, transport hubs, storage facilities, etc, all of which were to be found in Pyongyang. In fact Joe have a good look at a map of North Korea and see what a strategically important hub it is, then you might see why the UN decided to attack it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:38 PM

It takes wisdom to ignore the advice of obsessive arm chair generals.
Fortunately even the dim won't fall for the General act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:40 PM

Nonetheless, Teribus, I think that if the people of Pyongyang had been of European descent, the U.S. would have been far more reluctant to bomb it with such devastation.

And yes, Greg_F, it was a crime against humanity, even though the victims were Asian and the criminals were American. I don't think you disagree with me, but you may have been confused by something because it looks like you're posting disagreement with what I said.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:49 PM

Nothing to do with anything YOU said, Joe, but there are others....


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:34 PM

how this is realistically achieved in time of war?

For a start you don't carpet bomb residential areas in cities, and you don't use chemical weapons like Agent Orange or Sarin. And maybe you even refrain from targetting wedding celebrations and funerals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:01 PM

" The phenomenon of mind control."
a conjured up Western dream
How do you "mind control" countries the size of Russia and China, especially when the first thing their new leaders was was to intruduce univrsl education where none had been before
The Russian Revolution came about at the time of, and probably because of of World War One, where entire generations were forced to sacrifice their lives for the sake of "God, KIng and country" - "mind control in he extreme.
I visited six communist countries as a young man
I found the people I met were well-educated and articulate men and women who, for all their criticisms, which they expressed openly to a couple of strangers, were dedicated to their country and believed that the changes that had been brought about would continue - that included Czechoslovakia following the Troubles there in 1969.
The mind control of nations is the stuff of Science Fiction - the nearest to reality it has ever attained it two world Wars, four Thatcher Governments, Brexit and Trump -though I do find it somewhat reminiscent of the classic, 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' when I constantly have to jump aside t avoud people staring into mobile phones - creepy or what!!!
Sorry Robo (a strange cchoice of name for someone fantasising about mind control) - you appear to have overdosed on Star Trek
Spare us the Cold War sloganising.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:36 PM

Ahh Jim: I got to visit the Soviet Union when it was the Soviet Union. Their two main newspapers were Izvestia and Pravda which mean respectively 'News' and 'Truth'. A common Russian saying was that in the News there was no truth and in the Truth there was no news.
I have gotten in trouble in forums much different from this from merely observing that considering the horrible economic losses sustained in the Wars, I was impressed by the high literacy rate and that everyone's teeth had been fixed, even if the artificial teeth were stainless steel.
But you have swallowed the philosophical alternative facts that were the Soviet Ideology, and the artificial philosophy that underlay their State actions of invasion and occupation of their neighbors. And you apparently are willing to overlook the Gulag Archipelago, Show Trials, the mass starvation of Collectivization.
And it would be nice to mention that after WWI American aid organized by Herbert Hoover saved millions of Russians from starving.
I too met many of the people who grew up under Communism, but a funny thing, when you live in a country with very limited information, all of it State controlled, you know you're being lied to, but you still exist on a diet of lies. You have to know more about that kind of world then what a visitor sees and knows in a short time and people are willing to tell him or her when they don't know who they are talking with.
The Books "Darkness at Noon" and "1984" were written by people who had been believers but evolved (hope the word 'evolution' is not on YOUR forbidden list, JC) because they asked questions, and questions in that environment are dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:40 PM

45 years ago part of the cold war included psychic warfare with Russia, conjured up by the Russians. The US somehow figured we must not have a psychic war gap. There are parodies of that era later on like Men who Stare at Goats. Remember the Remote Viewers program? I do, to the point of remote involvement because I refused their invitation. (Navy dept of Intel)

In short this stuff is not just an American concoction.

Russia has streamlined mind control down to its primary parts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:08 PM

Yeah, you MIND or you DIE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:44 AM

"Teribus, I think that if the people of Pyongyang had been of European descent, the U.S. would have been far more reluctant to bomb it with such devastation."

You have got to be joking haven't you!!

In January 1951 when these raids took place most of Germany was still a massive bomb site.

In Jack's link a statement is made that before the raid the population was around 500,000 and that after the raid the population that remained in the city was around 50,000. That infers casualties of 450,000 which of course is nonsense - Germany was bombed for at least five years on an almost continual basis by thousands of aircraft and the resulting death toll was ~600,000. Are you really trying to tell me that 82 aircraft killed 450,000 people in three raids? In the newspaper article that you posted Curtis LeMay's figure of 3 million North Koreans dying (20% of the population) is incorrect highest estimate for casualties North and South is 2.5 million with a population in the North of 9.5 million and a population in the South of 25.9 million in 1951.

As to your statement about US reluctance had the targets been in Europe - New York Times, 22nd October, 1981:

Mr. Reagan was questioned about these European concerns. He was asked if he thought there could be a limited exchange of nuclear weapons in Europe or whether it would inevitably grow into a war directly involving the United States and the Soviet Union.

''I don't honestly know,'' Mr. Reagan said. He added that with each side having equal forces, ''I could see where you could have the exchange of tactical weapons against troops in the field without it bringing either one of the major powers to pushing the button.''


See any sign of reluctance there Joe? I can't, and throughout the time I served in the armed forces during the Cold War it was taken as read that IF Soviet or Warsaw Pact forces deployed and used their Chemical or Bacteriological weapons NATO's response would be tactical nuclear attacks on Soviet formations and the Soviets were made aware of that in no uncertain terms.

By the way Kevin I asked you how you could achieve what you suggested in time of war, I see by your response that you haven't got the foggiest notion, your suggestion is nothing more than meaningless waffle that in time of war would result in your troops dying.

Three quotes from Curtis Lemay:

1: "We're at war with ....... We were attacked by ........... Do you want to kill the ........, or would you rather have Americans killed?"

2: "Apply whatever force it is necessary to employ, to stop things quickly. The main thing is stop it. The quicker you stop it, the more lives you save."

3: "it's more immoral to use less force than necessary, than it is to use more. if you use less force, you kill off more of humanity in the long run, because you are merely protracting the struggle."


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:11 AM

2Ahh Jim: I got to visit the Soviet Union when it was the Soviet Union. "
Me too, and Hungary, and Czechoslovakia, and Bulgaria, and Poland, and Czechosovakia, and Yugoslavia.......
Never once saw people carrying pods which they carefully put in their cellars until they burst open and became replacements for their hosts,
I've read all of Koestler's books and a lot mote - so what?
What's the difference between a press like the Soviet Union's and and one owned by a handful of billionaires?
In my lifetime one of the main daily papers, still going strong, was owned by a fascist who openly supported the rise of Herr Hitler and extolled the virtue of Mosley and his Blackshirts
As for education - we sang hymns telling us that foreigners were inferior and needed our guidance and lined up in the pissing rain when the Queen Mother drove past or school......
Every State promoting every system 'brainwashes' in one form or the other with whatever method it can lay its hands to.
In the end, it depends how people are able to develop under any system and what the objectives of that system are.
The Soviet Union, China, Cuba, East Germany.... and others placed a large emphasis on developing people's minds socially and culturally, as do Left organisations in Britain - my grandfather helped found The Workers Education Association among his fellow merchant seamen.
Far from being mindless zombies, I found Eastern Europeans highly educated, articulate, cultural and interested to a far greater extent than was the situation back home.
The dream of the left died in these countries for all sorts of reasons, the main one being that the main objective was watered down and lost, and because of outside pressures, not because there was anything basically wrong with that dream.
It provided solutions our own system isn't even looking for - yet, though it is extremely worrying to see where we are heading, with political thugs like Trump and wannabe leaders like LePen looming up on the horizon.
I suggest you read what Terribus is writing if you want a glimpse of Capitalism's 'Brave New World', the necessity of slaughtering civilians, 'them and and us' wars in which anything goes, a system where weapons of mass destruction are no longer for defence, but are essential to the stabilisation of economies - and a source of profit, to be sold to anybody who is prepared to buy them, whatever use they will be put to.
One thing is certain - as far as 'brainwashing' is concerned - when and if it is made possible (it is still the dream of the Assimovs and the Frank Herberts) the idea of education those you wish to enslave will have to go.
Do you honestly think that Putin's Russia, or former Yugoslavia, or the Eastern States encompassing racism and fascism.... is an improvement on what went before, whatever its flaws?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM

Jim:
Do you honestly think that the incredible death rate of those who politically opposed those in power in a myriad of work/ death camps is worth ignoring no matter how many fine intellectuals you met (who obviously could discuss things of no interest to the State while being spied on by that State)?

Let's say you had been misheard and arrested after one of those fine conversations. You'd have been subjected to a kangaroo court and your case decided by your usefulness to the authorities.

As for the sorry state of the current descendants of the Soviet Union, their state mafia devolved to a privatized mafia. This is a kind of reverse commentary on what used to be the Communist theory that capitalism would naturally progress to a higher form of organization culminating in Communism.

"The dream of the left" died in those slave states long before your visit. Another book in addition to the ones you've ignored in my previous posts is "The God that failed."

The actual "dream of the left" is alive and well in the West. You are yourself one of its exponents, as am I. The fact that we are at intellectual loggerheads in a venue of free speakers is one of its salient features.

When I visited the Soviet Union I saw the inevitable huge placards and streamers under bridges proclaiming the greatness of Lenin and the Party. Nothing like people constantly being told what and how to think. (This state organization now is on display in North Korea). You are completely ignoring or denying this main feature of Eastern Europe.

I'll also never forget a visitor to Communist China in late 60s early 70s visiting a bookstore. They only sold ONE BOOK, the 'thoughts' of Chairman Mao.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, none so deaf as those who will not hear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM

"Do you honestly think that the incredible death rate of those who politically opposed those in power in a myriad of work/ "
Don't know if you have any particular back-door to the truth, but having had an interest in politics for half-a century, I
have a little difficulty in separating it from the Cold-War rhetorical claims of how many died
By the time Stalin got his toe in, anything resembling socialism had long disappeared and the left were as likely to be victims as were the right - nothing to do with the system that was being aimed for.
Hitler was a product of German industrial capitalism - would you use that fact to denigrate the capitalist system?
Democracy is a very moveable feast in the West
My father panicked when he say the rise of Hitler, went off to fight in Spain and was wounded and imprisoned there.
When he returned, he was awarded an MI5 record as a "premature anti-fascist", excommunicated from his church, and blacklisted from his work - my mother and sister hardly saw him until I was aged 9 because he was forced to become a navvy
Now I am ten years older than he was when he died, there isn't a day passes when I don't think of him with pride - I still share his dream.
I doubt it.
The aims of The Soviet Union were being distorted by outside interference, such as the 14 countries which sent troops to support the Civil War brought about by an attempt top return to the old system and another world war in which the USSR lost 26,600,000 people, 13.7% of the population
The state was leveled to the ground and, rather than being allowed to rebuild peacefully, along came The Cold War.
Despite that fact, what had been a backward semi feudalist gathering of backward states, it developed into an industrial world leader
Stalin was a political thug working in a situation that encouraged such extremism - up to the end of the war he was "Good old Uncle Joe", the man who helped beat the Nazis (still have a photograph somewhere of me standing with my mothers arms at a street party in Liverpool, with posters of Stalin plastered all over the street.
"slave states" is one of those convenient terms - we fill our shops with goods created by virtual slave labour, and we sell arms to the dictators that create the conditions, because they are regarded as "a safe pair of hands"
When mass-murderer Pinochet was under house-arrest in Britain our Prime Minister worked her socks off to see he didn't come to trial for the many thousand young people he had slaughtered
She described those who wanted him tried as "running a police state" and, at a rally in Westminster on a platform draped witr crossed British and Chilean flags, she described him as "a hero of democracy"
Don't get me wrote - I despise Stalin for what he did to 'the dream", but he was a product of extreme circumstances which allowed him to do his worst.
Britain was quite happy to let "Herr Hitler" do his worst until they had no alternative,
Never been to China, but the Communist countries I did visit had no such restrictions on literature and those I talked to knew far more about my country's history than I did at the time - and most of them spoke several languages, English being the most common.
Lenin - so what
Don't we have statues to Nelson and Wellington - aren't our public buildings draped with flags, don't we still celebrate centuries old battles (mostly those which enabled us to enslave an entire Empire)
Lenin was a national hero who assisted Russia to walk away from the bloodbath that was WW1 and save many millions of Russian lives
I'd buy him a drink if he walked into our local.
I suggest you come back and tell me about Stalin when we don't live under a system that doesn't sanction the pouring of burning jellied petrol on third world farmers, or sanction wars with third world nations in order to run our cars on cheap petrol - or fill our shops with goods manufactured in factories that regularly crush workers who are paid less than enough to feed themselves and their families
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM

Jim you very capably express a POV I can sympathize with - in spots. No one is saying that any nations have clean hands in a filthy world. BUT, I think you will not be surprised to find that my opinion is that you are cherry picking your nasties. I say Gulags, you avow that Hitler's Concentration Camps were Capitalism Made Manifest. I find that unbelievable on its face because you are completely ignoring the racism racialism that was bedrock to the Nazi philosophy. Hitler found companies that made his munitions and the furnaces of Auschwitz. Likewise Stalin found whatever he needed to establish his gulags, very often the work of the prisoners themselves. I don't think economic structure is a valid demarcation point...
Lenin was no peacenik. He backed away from war with Germany because the Germans had helped put him in power. Stalin made 'peace' with Hitler so both could divide up Poland and prepare for major war with each-other (and in the meantime he raped Finland).
But as for national structure of government and legal system over one's own citizens, the difference is as night and day - for me. Freedom of speech under one side, prohibited on the other. Access to legal means for the accused under one side, unavailable on the other. Ability to publish independently under one side, unknown on the other. Food distribution independent under one side, dependent on the State under the other.
These are the concrete and discrete difference between societies that you are seeking to muddle together in your pot stirring perambulations.

Let's boil it down to one question, Jim- Is there at the present time a net qualitative difference between life in South Korea and life in North Korea? And which side if any has the plus column?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM

"my opinion is that you are cherry picking your nasties."
So are you
"you are completely ignoring the racism racialism that was bedrock to the Nazi philosophy"
Just as the British leaders (including a King) did when they kissed Hitler's backside
Nazi racism was well underway when Britain was appeasing Hitler - go find a copy of The Daily Mail.
"Likewise Stalin found whatever he needed to establish his gulag,"
I have pointed out that the Gulags were around long before the Bolsheviks were a twinkle in anybody's eye - Tolstoy based one of his finest novels around them - Trotsky escaped from them on two occasions - Stalin took them over ready-made.
"He backed away from war with Germany because the Germans had helped put him in power. "
Sorry Robo - you really have swallowed Cold War propaganda hook, line and sinker.
The revolution took place because the soldiers turned and walked away from the front, refusing to fight - they were joined by starving workers and peasants.
Russia was well out of the war before six months before the Bolsheviks too control
Germany brought Lenin back from Russia as a move to ensure that they stayed out - no deal, no negotiations - the walk-out occurred in May.- the Bolsheviks didn't gain control till October.
"Stalin made 'peace' with Hitler so both could divide up Poland"
An arguable point
Some historians claim that Stalin made peace with Germany because they were in no position to do anything else - they had nowhere near enough arms to oppose the German army, but they shortly became capable
Depends on who you believe, I suppose.
Freedom of speech was never "opposed" as such
Stalin turned on his political enemies and by and large, the Russian people fell for it hook, line and sinker, believing the opponents were "ultra-lefts" working with Germany
The left was as much a victim of Stalin as anybody
It was a massive con job engineered by Stalin, not a suppression of free speech.
Stalin was idolized by the people, it was not until three years after his death, when Kruschev exposed Stalin's crimes at the The twentieth congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1956, that the truth gradually began to emerge.   
As Lincoln said, "you can fool some of the people some of the time..."
Sorry, Robo your "suppression of free speech" is as dodgy a claim as your brainwashing one.
Masses of human beings are just not like that.
Stalin was idolised by the people, he still is in his native Georgia - it was encouraging that idolotry that was the main point of Kruschev's speech - not thought control or suppression of the masses
The people were the ones he had to convince and he had a pretty uphill struggle to do do it.
You mention Koestler - a very moving author but an extremely dodgy individual ( a rapist, among other things)
Can I suggest a far superior work that, in my opinion, shows how Stalin managed to weave his web
Try the chillingly readable, 'Case of Comrade Tulyev', by Victor Serge, , from an author who was there and experienced what was happening first hand
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:58 PM

Death by Russian Polonium is a most horrible way to die.

Our US neutron bombs are more efficient, humane and HUGE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:36 PM

JC:
I'm aware of Koestler's dodginess. I've had a high time with him in other forums regarding other books he wrote. But I think "Darkness at Noon" was a great work in which he tried to understand what went through Party-Members' minds when they themselves got put on trial for 'crimes' they could not themselves dream of, yet to which they confessed. Mind-rape indeed. I think Stalin being idolized by many of his citizens is as chilling an example of mind-rape as has ever occurred. I suppose it has applied to Chairman Mao and is being applied to Kim even now.
Meanwhile are you going to consider the simple question I asked you regarding S.Korea vs N.Korea?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM

"I think Stalin being idolized by many of his citizens is as chilling an example of mind-rape as has ever occurred"
Over-dramatic nonsense that could be applied to anyone in history
The idolatry of Stalin had nothing to do with the individual - he was in the right place at the right time
The world had come through a massive and totally unprecedented blood bath in which entire generations had been slaughtered for the sake of Empire
Following this, the Germany entered a revolutionary period to overthrow the system that caused the massive slaughter - it failed, and Fascism gained a toe hold there.
Soviet Russia seemed to offer a solution and was heading for being the first worker's state - a guarantee that these bloodbaths would never happen again
THat's where adulation of Stalin came from - not some weird mind "mind-raping" process - it was a reaction to a failing Imperial system that had raped the planet and divided it up for centuries - a centuries old gang rape of the poorest nations by the wealthiest.
It has always been ignored that one of the excuses used for entering the obscene slaughter that was WW1 was the treatment of "gallant little Belgium" who had caused the deaths of up to ten million Congolese in the pursuit of rubber.
Why doesn't that count as one of your "chilling examples".
Stalin was adored, not just by the Russian people, but by the left, the liberal left and many more as a way out of a system that had become rabid - read clergyman Hewlett Johnson's 'Socialist Sixth of the world' or the Webb's 'Soviet Communism' to see the admiration for a new system to end all wars
That fact that Stalin's idol had clay feet didn't in any way alter the fact that the world needed changing - and still does.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:41 AM

Sorry
Not in ignoring your Korean query - will respond later
I don't believe the analogy you suggest has anyting to do with the main points of this - North Korea is a badly run deformed workers state - a travesty of a socialist country - The south is a wealthy country massively subsidised by by the US and Japan that doesn't have the sucurity problems of their northern counterpart
Would you compare Capitalist Germany with capitalist India as proof of anything
Hope not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:37 AM

Jim, you write you posts in a most unusual style. They almost look like poems rather than polemic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM

Is that a criticism or a complement Stu?
I have to say, I would like it to be the latter
I write off the top of my head as I feel (that's why I never post after a few pints)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:57 AM

Twitler is stallin plans for Korean war 4.

The Donald is ruing by decree, executive orders, appointmrnts and waivers only.
If he can get his waiver to do his 500 billion dollar oil deal with Russia, his mission is don since he plans to gain several trillion dollars. I do not see him as a 4 year President. He may not pull a Palin and quit.

After all Donald is invested in South Korea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:50 AM

It's neither really Jim, but more of complement than a criticism ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:03 PM

Jim:

Your writing is a kind of blank verse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:12 PM

I'm not sure I like blank verse
Are you saying it is "blank" verse ot that what I am saying is nothing?
As we used to rhyme in Liverpool in my young days
"I am a poet and didn't know it
I **** on my shirt and I didn't show it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM

Actually, Jim, I'm going to take you at your word, if I understood it correctly, that you would "respond later" to my N.Korea S.Korea inquiry as asked in detail on 19 April at 4:00 PM and go on to what I think of everytime I see the thread title: 'Mass murder of defenceless civilians'.

North of Mosul there is a large sink-hole. Reports have come in that uncounted civilians have been tossed in by ISIS. The Iraqi military with American support is trying to recover this city of a million residents after its rapid and well-nigh unaccountable loss to the rapid ISIS onslaught of 2014. ISIS has administered the city since and made the citizens their fodder. They are preyed upon in every way imaginable and now, under the current attempt to re-take the city by the Iraqi government, they are hostages and also an escape route (as ISIS masquerade as civilians if necessary). ISIS has no limits on what they can or will do people under their control. ISIS lives and fights among them so there is no way to attack ISIS fighters without likewise endangering civilians.

This is not unlike what happened during the Korean War. Only it's happening as I type this message. Our leaders are making decisions on what happens to these peoples' lives right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 01:59 PM

I'm really not ure what there is to say about Korea
The war caused massive damage to both sides, the North suffered much more than the South
I remember stories of some people in the North reduced to living in caves
After the war, America poured in money into the South as reparation - later Japan assisted through trade – the North was left to make its own way.
Despite this, The North did well right into the 1990; an indication that they were doing the right things for nearly forty years.
The downturn in the economy appears to be a bad leadership, rather than a failure of the political system.
What's your point?
You talk about brainwshing
Personally, I regard WW1 as the worst example of brainwashing in history.
Millions of young men being sacrificed (willingly, it is argued) in a war of attrition conducted by obtaining as many, first volunteers, later conscripts as could be got, and sending them to their certain deaths, wave after wave, no tactics, no strategy, jus slog it out to they were all dead or wounded and go get some more and continue for five years until one or other side had had enough.
And for what - a squabble between two sides of the same family as to who should own most of the planet
H G Wells, eat your heart out - you couldn't have come up with anything like that in a million years!!
We'll go on about atrocity and oppresion and compare all the different brands, if you like
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:49 AM

gee i thought you were all talking about bloody sunday


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:53 AM

"Nonetheless, Teribus, I think that if the people of Pyongyang had been of European descent, the U.S. would have been far more reluctant to bomb it with such devastation."



"Yet many of Dresden's residents had come to believe
that their city would be spared an air attack. A rumor circulated that Winston Churchill had an aunt who lived in Dresden. The city called itself Elbflorenz- Florence on the Elbe- and it had once been a required stop for young Englishmen on the grand tour. Saxon kings had brought Italian stonmasons north to build in Dresden, and the city's features were softer and warmer than those of other German cities. The Baroque churches and neoclassical art museums, the opera that rivalled Vienna's, the factories that made Meissen china-these were Dresden's air defenses. The city was too beautiful to be bombed."

and:

Kyoto

More on Kyoto


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:03 PM

Jim Carroll:

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic

I posed the question: "Let's boil it down to one question, Jim- Is there at the present time a net qualitative difference between life in South Korea and life in North Korea? And which side if any has the plus column?"

Your answer was incredibly shallow and diversionary. It displayed the alienation between Communism and individual human rights. The result of which is the alienation between Communism and human rights en masse.

Right now we have a single human tragedy, that of Otto Warmbier A single American who committed a harmless act of aggressive tourism, and has been mistreated to the point where he is worse off than if he simply died.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM

My answer was not shallow, your question was based on a false premise - that North Korea is a Communist country and that South Korea got to be what is was by its own efforts.
Neither is the case, as my answer attempted to point out.
Whatever North Korea set out to be, it has long left that path
Communism has never been more than a dream - the end of a long, hard road
I know nothing of what Mr Warmbier did, but his punishment is no worse nor better that that meted out so, say, opponents of Assad over the decades, or those who stood up to the Greek Colonels - or nearer to home - those who stood up to Augusto Pinochet, who was hailed as a hero of democracy by our Prime Minister, who went on to describe the seeking to bring him to trial for mass murder, rape and torture of many thousands of young people as "running a police state".
Would you hold Papadopoulos or Pinochet or Assad (or even Trump) as shining examples of the system you seem so keen on supporting - I doubt it?
Then why produce a country that was never given a chance to even start to recover from a genocidal war imposed on it by "the democratic nations" aa an example of a goal that was never even embarked on?
The same, incidentally, goes for states like Cuba who survived outside intervention and embargo instated by the worlds most powerful nation (90 miles from its doorstep) for over sixty years.
Rather like tying someone to a tree and jeering at them because they won't fight
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:30 PM

Jim:
You are utterly fascinating. You ascribe to my posts positions I have not taken, and things I have not written. And you play that old trick I ran into in my youth. Communist country does evil things, therefore it can't really be Communist! Now Communism is an unrealizable ideal! (Reminds me of an old Kishon quote: Communism is "great in theory, the only problem is it CAN be realized!"

But even more remarkable is your attempt to bring in other dictators and other travesties of justice as your version of deflection. This is the very tactic you descry when you are bashing Israel and your opposition tries to bring out the even worse conditions/ behaviors of every other country in the region.

Most anti-Semites are hypocrites. Here we have two countries, two societies (N.Korea, S.Korea) which are racially and religiously similar but separated by clear ideological differences which has rendered one politically and economically rich and varied, and the other a depressed, oppressed hellhole by comparison. You are squirming as no worm has ever wriggled, to avoid facing up to the contrast. This has exposed you as never before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:23 PM

"You ascribe to my posts positions I have not taken,
How?
You compare the development of North and south Korea - chalk and bananas
North and South Korea differ basically in the fact that The North was devestated to the level of people living in caves, while the South was nowhere near as badly damaged yet baled out by vast amounts of Western money
Simple as that
"evil things, therefore it can't really be Communist!
This is really basic stuff no country ever tried to change oe system to another - they all aimed to - basic Marxism
The programme of the British Communist Party was 'The British Road to Socialism' not 'The British Road to Communism'.
Communism was to be the end result, not something you put on like a new coat
There are loads of reasons why the experiment failed - not all of them internal, but that aside
Russia was a conglomerate of colonies from poorly industrialised Capitalism in the West to primitive feudalism - occasionally nomadism in the east
It could never adopt communism as a system without industrialising and widespread education, which is what happened
Russia should ner have had a revolution when it did - it wasn't ready, but it had no alternative.
Germany would have made a better job of it and it very nearly succeedded
Despite this, within a few decades, despite a crippling war that had left the country in ruins and slaughtered millions of its youth, a Civil war participated in by 14 hostile countries and another world war made the greatest sacrifce of all the particpants, Russia was throwing up Sputniks by the 1950s, wa fully industrialised and was a world contender.
China achieved the same some thirty years later.   
Both could have been well on the road to Socialism (not Communism) if it hadn't been for appalling leadership and constant outside intervention.
I never described communism as "unrealisable" nor would I
The present situation of a widening gap between rich and poor cannot sustain itself and will eventually go the way of the Roman Empire, -
whatever tortuous path it takes the world has to end in a more equitable society otherwise it will just end.
"Most anti-Semites are hypocrites"
I hope this spiteful aside is not aimed at me
I heve never at any time in my life denigrated the Jewish people and i have offered a prize of a generous donation to any named charity to anybody who can quote me doinf so
My quarrel is with the Israeli regime and it is antisemitic by definition to claim that criticism of Israel is antisemitic (as the Israelis are guilty of doing constantly)
What are you people on, whith your antisemitic, underhand smears?
If you are accusing me of being antisemitic because I criticise Israel, it is you who is the Jew-hater - not me.
Go read a book and come back with some real arguments we can discuss - this is Joe McCarthy stuff
You might throw in some real arguments about Britain and the West dealing with, propping up and even installing dictators, while you're at it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:23 PM

Throwing all the old spaghetti against the wall and seeing if anything sticks, while carefully avoiding actual responses- very trendy, i.e. Trumpian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:09 AM

"throwing all the old spaghetti against the wall and seeing if anything sticks, "
And avoiding points made is an age-old way of avoiding facts
I have answered every point you have made as best I can - you have responded to nothing
I'm happy to discuss this as long as your wish - even the dodge-the-question game you people seem to favour, but I would like to clear up one point before I do
You alluded to my being an antisemite despite my having never made a single attack on the Jewish people in my life and despite the fact that the little bunch of squalids on this forum who have accused me of being such have never attempted to tale up my offer - a generous donation for proof of my antisemitism
I would like you to clarify your accusation so we can progress any further, otherwise I'm off
I really can't be arsed with dishonest, cowardly people who use such argument as stones to avoid intelligent discussion on topics I regard important and use antisemitic arguments to do so (Israel is not the Jewish People and has long ceased to represent them by dividing them into supporters of their policies and "self-hating Jews"
So please either clarify your accusation or apologise and withdraw it, otherwise, I'll leave you to wallow in your own swill
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 09:03 AM

a generous donation for proof of my antisemitism

Time to pay up Carroll and we want to see receipts.


User Name         Thread Name         Subject         Posted
[PM] Jim Carroll         BS: Palestine (657* d)         RE: BS: Palestine         23 Oct 11

I have claimed that there are comparisons ("echoes" is the word I used) to be drawn between the behaviour of the Nazis towards the Jews, and that of the Israelis towards the Palestinians



Examples of the definition of anti-Semitism as adopted by 31 democratic countries including Ireland and the UK, it's police force and the UK Labour Party, ten Observer Countries, and seven international partner organisations to whit: the United Nations, UNESCO, OSCE/ODIHR, International Tracing Service (ITS), European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), Council of Europe, and the Claims Conference:

-Legitimate criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

-Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions is anti-Semitic.

-Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor is anti-Semitic.

-Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation is anti-Semitic.

-Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

Or is it simply a case of the abused becomming the abuser? Pretty common, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 11:49 AM

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic" - must be true, the Minister of Justice said so
THe next clause in the definition states clearly:
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
and the next
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
The fact that you and Israel constantly call critics of Israel antisemitic makes that definition totally invalid and leaves us with "the denigration of the Jewish People" as the only workable one
A Jewish Antisemite
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/uk-jewish-mp-israel-acting-like-the-nazis-who-forced-my-family-to-flee-from-poland-28478952.html
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER

Thanks to people like you and the Isreali regime, the only workable definition of antisemitism is the traditional one - attacks on the Jewish people
People like you of the extreme right have no interests in the welfare of the Jewish people - your interest is in defending the extreme right in Israel
My offer sttill stands
Where have I ever attacked the Jewish people?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:41 PM

That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis

Another anti-Semitic statement. You really should quit digging yourself deeper into your hole and admit what you are and cough up like a man. But I guess that is too much to expect from a worm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 05:09 PM

Tired old rubbish, bobad. You must be a very sad man. Find another hobby. Would you like me to send you some recommendations for classical music listening? Mind you, I won't have any music by Wagner in the house (a horrid antisemite), and I won't listen to any music conducted by Karajan (a Nazi Party member). Mendelssohn (a Jew) is one of my favourite composers and on YouTube I listen to the piano playing of Daniel Barenboim (a Jew) more than everyone else put together. Try his performances of the Beethoven sonatas Op 78 and Op 53. Deep down inside you know very well that your chosen adversaries here are not antisemitic. So go and tend your garden and enjoy the sunshine. One day you'll find that your hatred is shortening your life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:13 PM

Ah yes, they do tend to congregate don't they.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 10:42 PM

Steve:
You are making bobad's case. You just can't help yourself.

I recall Jim Carroll posting song lyrics from an anti-Semitic song with no provocation that I could see in another thread. Also, he compared Israel to Nazi Germany which I find anti-Semitic on its face. I also concur with bobad's recent post above.

There is a tactic which our friends are practicing. That is, purposely drawing out partisan responses by the phenomenon of Jew baiting.

Jim Carroll also seems to be a Communist apologist. This is in keeping with anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism because the Party took such positions at various times, and good Communists fell into line with no reflection on objective truth. Refer to the attempt of Jewish authors to capture the Holocaust experience post WWII with The Black Book and its treatment by the Communist dictatorship, which it did not suit. Communists hold history to be a malleable phenomenon to be put at the service of the Party.

This is not an attractive subject. I feel it is appropriate to call attention to it, but I do not feel compelled to jump to its tune.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:51 AM

Jim,
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic"


Can you support that assertion, or did you just make it up?
Israel had no role in formulating the definitions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM

"I recall Jim Carroll posting song lyrics from an anti-Semitic song with no provocation that I could see in another thread. "
The only Antisemitic song I have posted was written by a man named Scottish Unionist MP Archibald Ramsay.
Inless you have forgotten why it was posted, it is extremely dishonest of you to claim it was "unprovoked"
I had raised the question of antisemitism in Wartime Britain and related the story of the Members of Parliament who, when the news of the Holocaust began trickling into Britain, put the repots down to "ies invented by whingeing Yids"
Keith leapt to the defence of these gallant gentlemen and in his inimitable manner, claimed no such comment had been made - he persisted (as he does) and I produced information on 'THE RIGHT CLUB , made up of British politicians, businessmen and dignitaries and their publication, 'The Red Book' which included vitriolic anti-semitic poems poems written by one of Britain's great and good, Ramsey - the poem I produced "unprovoked!!!" was one of these.
Keith' also in his inimitable way, continued to defend these people and claim the remark I had raised was never made - his antisemitism is palpable
In recent arguments on the Labour Party's so-called antisemitism, he claimed that the reason we didn't know the nature of the "antisemitism" supposedly displayed widely by Labour \party members was that Jewish politicians ahad entered into a pact of silence to protect "th party they loved" - a 'Jewish plot', no less.
Keith and Bobad are bosom buddies.
You people make me sick
I have never uttered a word of abuse against the Jewish people, my family were part of the pre-war anti fascist fight against the rise of antisemitism in Britain (to the point of being arrested and jailed), my father went to Spain and when he was wounded and imprisoned, shared cells with Jewish fighters who had joined the fight against Franco (I men some of them at his funeral)
I worked alongside Jewish left-wingers in Manchester and became friendly with holocaust survivors (this was 20 yers after the war)
You you shower of extremeist right-wingers call me an antisemite because I am appalled (as is a large slice of the world) at the manner in which various Israeli regimes have destroyed the dream we all had of a Jewish homeland and turned it into an ethnic cleansing nightmare
Your world is one of "self hating Jews" (one of the most antisemitic terms I have ever encountered) who oppose this appalling regime and a regime which rgards any opposition to their actions as a betrayal of the Jewish people (that is classically fascist by definition, by the way - making the will of the people subservient to the interests of the state).   
You interests are in defending the extremist right-wing politics of the regime - you have not a shred of concern for the welfare of Jews as a whole.
You are extremist in your views and totally intolerant and dishonest in your behaviour
I am neither an antisemite, nor am I a "Communist apologist"
I have an interest in 20th century politics and have spent most of my life pursuing it
I am happy to discuss those interests with most people - you you squalid crowd have just been stuck off that list
Bobad is a cowardly troll who hysterically screams "Jew Hater" whenever a word of criticism is uttered against his favourite right-wing regime and now we seem to have a new kid on the block in Robo
I repeat my offer - if you can produce one single example of my attacking the Jewish People I will make a generous donation to the charity of your choice
The right wing mob who rule Israel at present no longer represent the Jewish People, they have denigrated the Jewish Dream of a Homeland by turning it into a monotheisic state and gradually evicted those who do not
live up to their ideal, burdering and destroying in order to do so.
THe world has been here before -m we fought a world war to prevent it happening in Europe
Criticising the Israeli regime is not antisemitic - it says so in all the definitions
Live with it
I leave you with your appallingly dishonest world divided into supporters of modern Israeli politics and "self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 08:02 AM

Jim,
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic"


If that is not just made up shit, produce something, anything, to support it.

Good luck with that, liar!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 08:30 AM

"If that is not just made up shit, produce something, anything, to support it."
Welcome to the Klavern of apologists Keith - I knew you couldn't resist for long
Why should any definition include such an exclusive clause dfending a specific country?
Any country is capable of adopting Nazi policies, as Islael has proved
You have been given the list of Jews and their organisations who have made those accusations against the Israeli regime - all falling under the Israeli epithet of "self-hating Jews)
Are you antisemitic enough to refuse to acknowledge or even refer to their claims (rhetorical question again)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:11 AM

There can be no possible reason to include such a totally illogical clause
What if they did start behaving like the Nazis?
They have created ghettos whose checkpoints are reminiscent of those in Warsaw and Wilno
THey have driven Bedouins off their land using high pressure hoses and chemicals and forced them onto toxic rubbish dumps
They have now opewrated a decade old ban to foirce Arabs to submit to their land being confiscated
They are at least half-way there already, yet be can't compare them with their fore-runners
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 10:37 AM

That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic"

If that is not just made up shit, produce something, anything, to support it.

Good luck with that, liar!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 07:41 PM

Jim:

You can't declare yourself 'not an antisemite'. That is to be determined by others (I'm sure some of your best friends are joos).

As for 'Communist apologist' there was a thread above the line about songs praising Stalin to which I contributed "The Stalin Epigram" by a Soviet era poet who was transported because of his work. I also contributed a song by a Soviet folksinger which was a lot better and more to the point than the absurd song praising good ol' Joe by that American folksinger. You had to contribute one of your longish posts defending the pro-Stalin stance without contributing anything musical. It came off as a party apparatchik defending the faithful proles from the hoary bourgeois.

I keep coming back to one of the most useful quotes I've read about Communist versus Capitalist societies: "The difference between the Communist system and the capitalist system is that when they give you a kick in the ass, in the Communist system you have to applaud, in the capitalist system, you can scream."

You should appreciate that, Jim. You scream pretty much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 02:26 AM

I have never praised Stalin Keith - not ever
I was the first an only person on this forum to point out that Stalin killed and persecuted as many left opponents as his di right ones.
I certainly pointed out your crass misuse and ignorance of history regarding the Soviet Union, but that was for accuracy's sake.
Feel free to prove otherwise - I look forward to it.
As for the Joos (an antisemitic term in itself) - it is you people who implicate the Jewish people with the crimes and atrocities of the regime who is acting in teh same manner as the people who sent six million of them to their deaths - not me
Unless you have anything new to add beyong denial and the silence of politicians..........!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:16 AM

Huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:15 PM

Comes now news that Otto Warmbier, the American student who was arrested and sentenced in N. Korea for taking a poster (or banner) off a wall, has passed away.

Considering his age I believe that his condition resulted from deliberate mistreatment in custody. It would have been kinder to simply execute him.

Obviously this is not mass murder. It stands in for an attitude toward humanity as not composed of individuals, but of pawns, that enables the carrying out of mass murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

"Obviously this is not mass murder. It stands in for an attitude toward humanity as not composed of individuals, but of pawns, "
Rather like building tinder boxes of houses and refusing to hose the survivors in vacant property
Or even supporting mass murderers by selling them arms because we need their oil to keep our SUVs on the road.
I can still remember seven years of the US slaughtering Vietnemese Peasants by showering them with BURNING PETROL and carcinogenic sprays
Inhumanity and greed knows no boundaries and doesn't march under any particular flag
It's somewhat hypocritical to casitgate one side and ignore the other
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:18 AM

By the way Robo
Before you suggest it, I do not put the facts of one set of atrocities to try and excuse another - both are acts of inhumanity.
You choose to use this as an argument against changing the system you obviously support
I merely point out that your system is just as corrupt and predatory as any other at present
JimCarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM

Jim:

"Inhumanity and greed knows no boundaries and doesn't march under any particular flag"
So What? I suspect that is not an individual discovery on your part!

Nothing is easier than picking the low hanging fruit of a particular event or set of events and using it to offset another set of events. The problem is in relating one to the other. I do not see how the use of napalm in Vietnam in 1971 relates to the death of Otto Warmbier yesterday.

You can either justify ANYthing or excuse ANYthing with your mode of argument. The devil can quote scripture, too.

The question is "What is to be done, and who is going to do it?"

Lenin's answer was insufficient and unsatisfactory. And he died and left Stalin in charge which resulted in a soviet holocaust which Russia is still living with. And N. Korea is part of that holocaust. And Otto Warmbier is an INDIVIDUAL reminder of the kind of thinking that got them to the present.

Never mind, Jim, they look so pretty when they wave their colorful squares in their stadium
games !


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:22 PM

" how the use of napalm in Vietnam in 1971 relates to the death of Otto Warmbier yesterday."
They come out of the same stable
You cannot point to the behaviour of North Korea as an example of inhumanity and ignore the fact that The West has done and continues to do the same, the only difference being that one parcels up their inhumanity as "democratic" while the other doesn't
As I said state terrorism and mass murder has nothing to do with systems - none of these events relate in any way to the behavior of the philosophies of the countries that are responsible - Communist or Capitalist - they are the acts of statesmen and politicians of all persuasions.
What is going to be done?
The way our statesmen seems to be out of all our controls whatever system they operate under.
You chose to blame "communists" I believe not to be communists.
I choose to try and change the world by saying what I believe to be the case, as feeble as that may sound.
"Never mind, Jim, they look so pretty when they wave their colorful squares in their stadium "
And the armies that are blasting their way through the Middle East to protect their oil flow look quite pretty in their uniforms look equally pretty
ANYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER
TENDS TO PUT YOUR MAN IN NORTH KOREA IN THE SHADE, DON'CHA THINK?
These discussions are pointless unless they are put into context of what is done by our governments in our name
I take it we've finished with the "antisemitic" bit?
Don't bother apologising, I've got used to that not happening when discussing with a certain type of person
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:08 PM

Stimulating conversation. Normally Joe deletes 2 person conversations.
I'm glad there is some flexibility.

Stalin's holocaust is of interest to me.
I have one question however, Is there really such a thing as a humane lethal weapon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:29 PM

"humane lethal weapon?"
Not yet - they're working on it
"Stalin's holocaust is of interest to me."
Worth looking out Vinagradov's, Isaac Deuscher's or Trotsky's biographies of Stalin - all from different directions but all with something interesting to say


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM

Anybody interested in how Stalin worked should get hold of the easily available and very readable 'The Case of Comrade Tulayev' by Victor Serege
It's a work of fiction written by a revollionary who was a winss to what happnd - has 'Darkness at Noon' beaten into a cocked hat in my opinion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:08 PM

Might have known that you prefer fiction to fact Jom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM

Jim:

Thank you for keeping up with your replies. I really disagree with you which makes you important to me!

In general, I find your amalgamation of phrases to not put together a coherent argument to my way of thinking. Starting with your last post, I'm going to go through it line by line, which I would term "untangling the spaghetti"

" how the use of napalm in Vietnam in 1971 relates to the death of Otto Warmbier yesterday."
They come out of the same stable

I disagree. Different countries, different times. Using the blandishment 'same stable' to me is lazy and quite inaccurate.

You cannot point to the behaviour of North Korea as an example of inhumanity and ignore the fact that The West has done and continues to do the same, the only difference being that one parcels up their inhumanity as "democratic" while the other doesn't

But I don't do that. I return, once more, to one of my favorite quotes about Communist versus Capitalist societies: "The difference between the Communist system and the capitalist system is that when they give you a kick in the ass, in the Communist system you have to applaud, in the capitalist system, you can scream."


As I said state terrorism and mass murder has nothing to do with systems - none of these events relate in any way to the behavior of the philosophies of the countries that are responsible - Communist or Capitalist - they are the acts of statesmen and politicians of all persuasions.

Once again, I disagree. The Nazis built Concentration camps on ethnic and religious grounds which killed millions. They had show trials. The Communists built concentration camps (Gulags) on class and political orthodoxy which killed millions. They had masses of show trials, and in the satellites countries as well, which did not have freely electd governments but were subservient to Moscow. The Communists under Stalin also moved masses of people on ethnic grounds. The Communists under Stalin also starved millions of people under forced collectivization. Mao starved millions of people as part of the Great Leap Forward. These were all leaders under whom there was no recourse. You had to applaud (Literally , in Stalin's case).

Even the Tsars didn't come close in damage and brutality to their own people. And the Tsars were no picnic.


What is going to be done?
The way our statesmen seems to be out of all our controls whatever system they operate under.
You chose to blame "communists" I believe not to be communists.
I choose to try and change the world by saying what I believe to be the case, as feeble as that may sound.


In all honesty, to me, you sound pretty feeble. You have swallowed dialectical materialism, the ersatz philosophy of Marxism. This involved the equivalent of Orwell's Newspeak along with Doublethink. In Orwell's 1984 he uses Newspeak as translating a passage of the American Declaration of Independence into the single word: "Crimethink." Dialectical Materialism was similar in that it defined the Capitalist term "profit" as "exploitation." Why argue with a concept when you can define it out of existence?


And the armies that are blasting their way through the Middle East to protect their oil flow look quite pretty in their uniforms look equally pretty
ANYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER
TENDS TO PUT YOUR MAN IN NORTH KOREA IN THE SHADE, DON'CHA THINK?
These discussions are pointless unless they are put into context of what is done by our governments in our name


I am not saying that Western governments are pure as the driven snow, and without vile self interest, poorly and lethally applied. I AM saying that as bad as they are, we are allowed to scream, and you and i are PROOF of that!

I take it we've finished with the "antisemitic" bit?
Don't bother apologising, I've got used to that not happening when discussing with a certain type of person


Actually I meant to add to my last post that your comparing napalm in Vietnam in 1971 to Otto Warmbier in N. Korea this past year was as inappropriate and inaccurate as comparing Israel with Nazi Germany. You brought out references to other folks on the web, presumably Jewish and/or Israeli, making similar comparisons. I think you are not being discriminating. When those folks make the comparison, they are sounding a warning bell, that to their minds things are happening, things are being said, by Jewish Israelis that are reminiscent of Nazi Germany on its way to developing the means that resulted in "The Final Solution". But my understanding of your wording is that you claim Israel is there, basically gassing Arabs wholesale. I think this is extremist and not helpful to the discussion. Also, Israel is full of art and literature that involves multiple cultures and includes everything from hagiography to the most scathing of governmental criticism. Israel is working on a multicultural civilization. The dictatoraial governments of Gaza and the West Bank are mired in doctrine and despair. Self criticism of either Islam or the Palestinian government is punishable up to and including death, and usually does not involve trials.

For Example: It is not anti-semitic to go into a fair and open dialogue on what is meant by what the Old Testament calls, (with some justification), a "stiff-necked people". It IS antisemitic to make that your only arguing point and claim it is a racial indictment from God. (That preceding sentence is an example only and is NOT aimed at you personally, Jim).

"Stiff necked people" applies to many (if not all) peoples, and some people even take pride in the appellation.

Meanwhile, thanks for the book references. At this time I'm not promising to look them up as I've got a long reading list, but I will probably see if they are in the local library. Are YOU aware that "1984" and probably "Darkness at Noon" owe a lot to Zamyatin's "We"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:08 AM

Robert Conquest's biography of Stalin has superseded those mentioned by Jim, with much more information than was available to the earlier writers he is able to demolish many of the myths they helped to promote.
I certainly would not dismiss "Darkness at Noon" as Jim does either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:41 AM

Robo
Just posted a long response but it didn't take
Will do it again when I have time
Keith
You have nor read any of the biographies you claim have been superseded by Conquest - you proved that by your dishonest claim of having read Deuscher yet being totally unable to anser a basic question on his approach
I very much doubt (knowing you being limited to cut-'n-paste lenght passages and your constant complaints of my posted information being "too long") if you have read Conqust - much "too long" and far too many big words.
I do not "dismiss" 'Darkness at Noon' - I hold it in deep respect, but I think there are far superior and less limited books on the subject
If you can't bother to be honest, perhaps you should go and play in the garden with the rest of the children while the adults are talking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:20 AM

claim of having read Deuscher yet being totally unable to anser a basic question on his approach

If that is true Jim, QUOTE ME.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:34 AM

Perhaps you mean this exchange,
Jim, "I too have Deutsher's book on hand - perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what your copy says about the famine."

Me, "Jim, it is years since I read those two biographies and they were good in their time but long out of date (1967 and 1966)and superseded by information uncovered since then.
Deutscher dedicates his book thus, "I dedicate this book a link in our friendship to TAMARA.
Do you still doubt I have it? "

Jim, "I too have Deutsher's book on hand - perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what your copy says about the famine."

"famine" is not in the index.
under "Ukraine collectivisation" p333 is referenced.
"Nadia Alliluyeva (his wife) spoke about the famine and discontent in the country and about the moral ravages which the terror had wrought on the party........
The same evening she committed suicide."

My copy was originally prices 63s.net.
Yours the same? "


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:57 AM

We really have been here Keith
Anybody can pick up an unread copy and quote from the convenient line - a totally pointless exercise which I have no intention in taking part in.
Deuscher to a unique approach to the famine which you have ben unable to identify, despite your claims of "having read both"
We went throuhght this interminably, to my eternam shame - why the **** did I bother arguing with someone who as such a crass grasp of hitory as a whole as to write
"Robert Conquest's biography of Stalin has superseded those mentioned by Jim"
History isn't like remakes of movies - historians are seldom, if ever, "superseded" by later ones.
In this case, I mentioned three authors, each bringing unique experiences to the sunbject - Trotsy was a victim of Stalin, Deuscher was a contemporary of the period in question and made a profound of all all the leaders of the Revolution, Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin, and Vinagradov was a Soviet military man turned historian who had full access to the Soviet archives
To suggest that these writers we superseded by anybody is a crass misundertsnding of how history works
You have quoted grabbed hastily-sought pieces to back up an argument on a subject you have proved you knk SFA about
Go away and swat flies or something
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:12 AM

History isn't like remakes of movies - historians are seldom, if ever, "superseded" by later ones.

They are when vast amounts of new information is released.

Re that superseded biography. Remember this post of mine?

Re Deutscher, you asked for stuff about the famine, and I gave you a quote.
Stalin's young wife killed herself because she could not live with the guilt and horror of what he was doing.
you don't intend to bother reading even the section on the Ukraine

There is no such section.
Have YOU read the book?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:18 AM

"Re Deutscher, you asked for stuff about the famine, and I gave you a quote."
If you think that the quote you gave sums up what Deuscher said about the famine , I should scramble through the index again ans see exactly what he wrote
Deuscher examined the whole question of the Ukrain in context of Stalin's life - he didn't isolate the Ukraine, it was part of the e
ntire picture
For Zhrist's sake, make an effoert and read the ***** thing through.
Your cut-'n-paste approach to history has got you into enough trouble
There is around a third of a clumn of reference to the Ukrain in Deuscher's biograpy which is spread over at least twenty pages - and that is the tip of the iceberg - the subject of the famine spread much further than that.
THere were no new revelations - the archives on Stalinism were opened when Khrushchev denounced Stalin and Conquest (CMG, OBE, FBA, FAAAS, FRSL, FBISE), a member of the British establishment, based his work on previous ones, bringing his own Cold War agenda to it.
That might make for good propaganda, but it certainly doesn't make for good history
Having read several of his books, including The Great Terror', I have no arguments with most of his facts, just the conclusion he draws from them, but not having read them, how would you know that.
Game over Keith - I'm not falling into another of your black holes and fucking up another thread with your agenda-based ignorance - go read these books in full - all of them, if you want to discuss them.
I ask again, what is the basic point on which Deuscher and Conquest differs - it leaps out of the pages if you care to read thaem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 09:18 AM

Back to sanity
Robo
It is a more than a little stupid to attempt to assess the worth of various philosophies and systems using examples like the one you have chosen considering the track record of all of them
Your Otto Wambier example is far outweighed by continuing atrocities carried out by Western 'Democracies' or their support of extremist regimes which range from Papa Doc through to selling equipment to the Saudis and propping up Assad – that period takes in support for the torturing Greek Colonels and Thatcher's confession that the policies of the mass murdering Pinochet regime was 'her idea of democracy'
Our Prime Minister attended the funeral of the Patriarch of the present Saudi regime at the same time as a journalist was being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn by that regime – hardly a thing for a Government leader to "pay his respects to".
"Different countries, different times" doesn't hack it as an excuse when things haven't basically changed over the decades.
We are now stuck in the middle of an oil war that is leading to the "mass murder of defenceless civilians" and our measured inaction on and support for monsters like Assad is filling body bags daily and has le to the rise of a formidable terrorist army.
We call our brand of state terrorism, defence of democracy, elsewhere (like Israel/Gaza) it his described as "defence"
Our economies have now taken in the selling of arms to some of the worst regimes on the planet, some of which have even made their way into the hands of Isis.
Atrocities and the slaughter of innocent civilians has now become a way of life and sanitised by our language – "friendly fire", "collateral damage", "extraordinary rendition – they've even managed to make it sound like an aqua –sport with "water-boarding".
All systems can be accused of excesses and atrocities in pursuit of their goals, some justified, some not – the Cold War produced a great deal of distorted information from both sides.
It is facile to simple put these things down to political and economic systems – maybe they are, but you can only know that by examining the raison d'etre of each system – that is not "throwing spaghetti" it's lifting the stones to see what's underneath
That's a reduced version of what I tried to post earlier – will try to filling the gaps alter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM

Jim,
claim of having read Deuscher yet being totally unable to anser a basic question on his approach

If you make false accusations against me, do not be surprised to have your lies exposed for what they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:59 AM

All three of you are possibly building a super structure to exhibit many facts ,ideas and philosophies and allow, no not allow...force new thinking.

What certainly will cloud exploration is a belief in patriotism.
To see clearly from a higher perspective I believe we must divest ourselves of obedience to a mind set of 'my side'. Creating a blank slate may be impossible due to our upbringing but could be intellectually important. I know I am biased toward democracy.

Professors,

At the risk of being called a moron and deemed facile without a full command of an expansive bibliography - I would look to Psychology and Math to point a way forward from historic mistakes because a single leader model is just evil. Evil as a single super computer to govern the release of a nuclear holocaust. Simply said divided power and guesses are always more dependable even when guessing the number of beans in a jar by by many individuals. Yes any cave man moron would agree bully dictators-bad, democracy-good, unless they are paid to believe otherwise. Do you believe the US Constitution can defend against a potential elected dictator?

What are your ideas concerning alternative leadership models assuming we have better paths to choose ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:05 PM

"If you make false accusations against me, "
?????
You are not threatening to read a book are yiu - heaven forfend
"Do you believe the US Constitution can defend against a potential elected dictator?"
I think the increased use of populism as an election ploy in what has increasingly become a divided society makes it not only possible but quite likely
Germany became an elected fascist state following a war, a demoralised working class thanks to the defeat of a revolution, several economic crises and a scapegoat in the form of The Jews.
Several of those requirements are now in place in the West - a moot point whether the oil adventures and the rise of Isis constitute a war
Look at the close shaves with extremist right contenders in France and Austria, with others waiting in the wings - where next?
"Professors"
.... speaking as a retired electrician with a lifelong interest in traditional music, of course.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:23 PM

Jim:

I feel for what it is to lose a post. I started my last longish post a couple days ago in a posh Anchorage Starbucks, swatted a mosquito as big as my knuckle then found I'd lost my post. For some reason when I type up a long paragraph, the computer will select a large patch of it and if I hit one other key it evaporates. The hazards of using an old laptop with an off-center touchpad.
Anyhow, while I think there are definite differences between societies, as I have already posted, I could add that from my point of view many supposed democracies, hence Democracy, are under severe challenge right now. Zimbabwe has long been a depressive regime under the over-long lifespan of Mugabe. South Africa is underachieving under the corrupt ANC. North Africa is full of frightful killer regimes. Venezuela has been ruined by Chavez and his heir. The Phillipines have elected, literally, a mass killer who is imprisoning his political opponents, and in Turkey the secular legacy of Kemal Atatuk is being corrupted and is falling to the dictatorial Erdogan.
In Russia the ex-KGB agent running the show is perpetrating a rule by mafia, and of the once Socialist Republics many have gone under the sway of strongmen.
China is sort of in a netherworld, by form maintaining a Communist vener, but in reality woshipping the almighty dollar and going through the motions of fighting corrupt officialdom. Is Vietnam doing the same?
Funny how the countries once colonized or occupied by the English have maintained or strengthened their modicums of constitutional government. Does Ireland count?

Other interesting books of or for these times:

All the King's Men by the poet Robert Penn Warren. (Very) loosely based on the career of Huey Long of Louisiana.
Dark Horse by Doug Richardson. Story of a political race in Texas where one of the candidates has no behaviorial boundries. Kind of a guilty pleasure novel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 09:27 PM

I agreed with every single point in robomatic's most recent post.
Could all these facts I agree with be a product of exposure to the same propaganda, party line and the same news machinery or is the ideology and information that perfectly aligned?

Perhaps in this crazy era of fake news I am becoming too suspicious.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


Jim unlike you, my reading a book is a very serious associative and strenuous exercise. Thank you for your recommendations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM

Sorry
No progress with this - just repetitive stonewalling
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 06:18 AM

"Jim unlike you, my reading a book is a very serious associative and strenuous exercise. "
Sorry Don
I didn't realise you were so familiar with my readings habits
I started to read regularly around the age of 12 and since then I cannot remember when I haven't had a book on the go.
I confess I tend to take less time over John Grisham or J G Sansom than I do over Dickens or Hardy, but I take all books I wish to retain very seriously - I am in the habit of taking notes from those that spill over into my personal interests, like traditional music or politics.
A little arrogant and disparaging, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM

Reading is a humbling experience for me but I don't want to go down that boring dyslexic road again. If anything I am lucky.

In sheer numbers of victims killed by Stalin's Gulags, Salt Mines and Siberian work camps, is it true he surpassed the holocaust by Germany?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:37 AM

Yes Don, by a considerable margin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:35 AM

The Gulags, Salt Mines and Siberian work camps were not his - they were an established Russian form of punishment and suppressing offten - fine when the Tsar was running them apparently but condemned under Soviet control
There is no record of how many were sent there because that opposed Stalin or how many were criminals or opponents of the state wishing to bring back the old system... or whatever
Stalin may have used them to dispose of opponents, but to say those opponents surpassed the numbers of the Holocaust was nonsense.
The greatest number of fatalities under Stalin were though incompetence and the mishandling of national crises - certainly not deliberate suppression of opposition.
Stalin regarded the left as much as an enemy as he did the right - he destroyed Socialism, he in no way represented it.
The numbers game is nonsense anyway - the Ukraine famine was no different than the Irish one - both were mismanaged - but even that is a complex issue.
The "democratic nations"
There is evidence that the Irish famine was deliberately mismanaged to solve "The Irish Problem" - the same cannot be said about the Soviet one - no proof exists that it was anything other than a bungled job under extraordinarily difficult circumstances.
I have no doubt that the usual suspect with claim this to be a defence of Stalin - it is not
I detest Stalin for his destruction of teh Socialist dream, but the 14 countries who provided support for those who would re-establish the old order (coincidentally!! the same people who regarded "New Germany as a bulwark against Communism") must share part of the blame for what happened etween the Wars in the Soviet Union
The whole period is incredibly complex and cennot be dealt with by out of context cut-'n-pastes and soundbites)   
Read Deuscher (in context of all his books) or Trotsy (history of teh revolution and biography of Stalin, or Vinagradov's biographies of the manin leader and his "Empire")
A lorra, lorra reading, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:22 AM

"Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that (Stalin's) period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin. In "Europe A History," British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties."


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 01:43 PM

Jim:

Wow- Just. Wow.

So the Ukraine famine was due to potato blight? Just the same? And Ukrainians were able to migrate to America to save a portion of their number?

Jim. You need some time for reflection. No argument from me can save you. You are way down the looking glass. Way Way Down.

I remember being on a Soviet train listening to a story about Stalin being interviewed about the cost of collectivization. Stalin held up ten fingers. Each finger was a million dead. Sure that's just a story. But the casual cruelty of the Soviet system over generations is not undocumented. Your post above is not materially different than denying the Holocaust.

In an earlier post in the thread above the line about Stalin folksongs I believe you referred to Khruschev's revelation of Stalin's crimes. Are you denying that in this thread?

You seem to think that declaring Stalin an enemy of the left will somehow balance things. Stalin had ANYONE who he felt was a threat done away with by one means or another.

Until you make room in your historical closet for monsters, you cannot capture the Kremlin mountaineer nor what he did to his country and his people, and a lot of other countries and their people, including ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM

"the Ukraine famine was no different than the Irish one - both were mismanaged - but even that is a complex issue.
The "democratic nations"
There is evidence that the Irish famine was deliberately mismanaged to solve "The Irish Problem" - the same cannot be said about the Soviet one - no proof exists that it was anything other than a bungled job under extraordinarily difficult circumstances."


1: There is no such "evidence"

2: Differences between the "Holodomor" and the "Great Hunger" were as follows:

Irish Famine - Aid was sent to Ireland
Holodomor - Aid was forbidden

Irish Famine - People from the worst affected areas were encouraged to move
Holodomor - People were not allowed to move

Irish Famine - Lasted from 1845 until 1852 during which 1.5 million people emigrated, 1 million died from diseases that at the time had no known cure and 0.5 million died of starvation.

Holodomor - Lasted from 1932 until 1933 during which somewhere between 2.5 million and 12 million people died of starvation or execution (These numbers do not include the extermination of 1,252,093 "Kulaks" that occurred between 1929 and 1931 whose deaths were a major contributing factor in ensuring the horrific scale of death in the Holodomor)

Yet for some reason Jom doesn't make any mention of the "Kulaks" - wonder why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 03:28 PM

"Aid was sent to Ireland"
And sold at unaffordable market prices while the homegrown food already there was locked in warehouses and guarded by armed soldiers (four times the amount required to feed the starving)
The Russell Government closed all the relief centres and workhouses his previous Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel had opened
Those who couldn't afford to pay their rents were evicted and left to starve on the roadside and the survivors were given the choice "emigrate or die"
This was a deliberate act of genocide.
Stalin couldn't have had that written into his government's policy - too many Communists left
As I said, Stalin's policy was directed by incompetence and the fact that he had an Empire to feed, not a small Island.
There is no comparison whatever with the deliberate act of genocide the Famine was manipulated to be.
By the way - one million died of starvation in Ireland - the number who were forced to emigrate due to the famine continued to rise right through the 19th century and up to independence - the aftershocks were still being felt up to the Celtic Tiger in the mid 1990s when the economy began to pick up thanks to the EU
"So the Ukraine famine was due to potato blight?"
Who said it was"?
It was the result of an attempt to collectivise in order to feed the whole Soviert Union - not artificially created - the scheme failed
Estimates of teh dead trange fro 2 million to 12 depending on your political persuasion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 03:42 PM

"the 14 countries who provided support for those who would re-establish the old order (coincidentally!! the same people who regarded "New Germany as a bulwark against Communism") must share part of the blame for what happened etween the Wars in the Soviet Union

WTF are you wittering on about Jom?

Here is the time line for you:

Russian Civil War 1918 to 1921

Kulak Pogrom 1929 to 1931 - Where Stalin deliberately wiped out the only people in Russia with the knowledge to farm the land efficiently 1.25 million of them. (The USSR never did manage to feed itself)

Holodomor 1932 to 1933

Now then Jom I make that 8 years that Lenin and then Stalin had an entirely free hand to put things right - Why didn't they? Rhetorical question my little scouse tooth-sucker - they didn't because they were ideologically driven fuckwits interested only in themselves and in power, the people of "mother Russia", as far as they were concerned, were just incidental, insignificant pawns on the board that were there to be exploited, abused and disposed off as they saw fit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:12 AM

"WTF are you wittering on about Jom?"
Before we go any further perhaps it's time to sort things out once and for all
Some time ago we were asked to grow up and stop calling each other childish names - all of us more or less took on that suggestion except you, who, in your defence has little to offer other that your contemptuous bullying aggression.
I find this subject interesting, but I'm fucked if I have any intention participating in it with an arrogant twat who can't be arsed to conduct himself in a half-decent adult manner.
Learn to behave as if those who disagree with you aren't no nothing morons to be talked down to and insulted and you might have a smidgen of an idea of the subject in hand and you might have a place here, otherwise, kindly go fuck yourself.
My chosen name on this forum is Jim Carroll - your pathetic attempts to talk be down with bullying and bluster has fucked up far to many threads and it stands to fuck up another one here
Grow up and act like an adult or go away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:16 AM

Incidentally
The Kulaks were better off peasants who, when the people needed food the most, slaughtered their livestock rather than share it with those who needed it.
Go look it up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:19 AM

1: Relief corn was not sold

2: "The Russell Government closed all the relief centres and workhouses his previous Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel had opened"

Taking that statement at face value is extremely difficult when confronted with the evidence in the form of recorded fact that there were more relief centres/workhouses in Ireland at the end of the famine than there was at the beginning. But then there were no such places in Ireland at all before the Act of Union, the poor and the destitute simply had to fend for themselves as best they could.

The deliberate starvation of the population of the Ukraine under Stalin is documented fact


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 09:01 AM

We've been here a hundred times
"To distribute the corn meal, a practical, business-like plan was developed in which the Relief Commission sold the meal at cost to local relief committees which in turn sold it at cost to the Irish at justTurbulent opening of the store in Cork selling Peel's Indian Corn. one penny per pound. But peasants soon ran out of money and most landowners failed to contribute any money to maintain the relief effort.
Laissez-Faire
In deciding their course of action during the Famine, British government officials and administrators rigidly adhered to the popular theory of the day, known as laissez-faire (meaning let it be), which advocated a hands-off policy in the belief that all problems would eventually be solved on their own through 'natural means.'
Great efforts were thus made to sidestep social problems and avoid any interference with private enterprise or the rights of property owners. Throughout the entire Famine period, the British government would never provide massive food aid to Ireland under the assumption that English landowners and private businesses would have been unfairly harmed by resulting food price fluctuations.
In adhering to laissez-faire, the British government also did not interfere with the English-controlled export business in Irish-grown grains. Throughout the Famine years, large quantities of native-grown wheat, barley, oats and oatmeal sailed out of places such as Limerick and Waterford for England, even though local Irish were dying of starvation. Irish farmers, desperate for cash, routinely sold the grain to the British in order to pay the rent on their farms and thus avoid eviction.
In the first year of the Famine, deaths from starvation were kept down due to the imports of Indian corn and survival of about half the original potato crop. Poor Irish survived the first year by selling off their livestock and pawning their meager possessions whenever necessary to buy food. Some borrowed money at high interest from petty money-lenders, known as gombeen men. They also fell behind on their rents."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 09:53 AM

Didn't see this earlier Robo - the bullshit got in the way
In an earlier post in the thread above the line about Stalin folksongs I believe you referred to Khruschev's revelation of Stalin's crimes. Are you denying that in this thread?"
Denying what - that Stalin committed crimes?
Of course I am not - thought I had made that clear.
I am saying that what happened in the Ukraine was more about dogmatic stupidity than criminality, based on his "You have to break eggs make an ommlette
Plenty of crimes elsewhere
That is why I contrasted it with the outcome of the Irish Famine which I believe was deliberate, based on Sir Charles Trevellion's belief that the Famine was God's punishment on the "evil" Irish
"The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
Charles Trevelyan, head of administration for famine relief, 1840s"

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:57 PM

Jim:
Your post of 22 June kinda broke our disagreements into the open, as I think I made clear in my "Wow" post. I currently understand you as a practiser of major doublethink. You remind me of a coworker of mine, very good at engineering, politically a major climate-change denier and Trump supporter of hugely dogmatic proportions, in other words, you can't even have a conversation about it. On the other hand, he can be funny and the source of good quotes. We go out for coffee and can have a good time only we simply cannot discuss some things because his voice will go strident, his eyes will glaze, and his phrases will be pre-programmed.

I find the Irish famine of the 1850s and the Holodomor of the 1930s to be entirely different events. I don't know much actual history about either one to make intelligent studious conversation in this forum. But I don't think I need to. I understood that the Ukrainians felt so 'hard done by' the Soviets that their WWII German invaders were welcomed as liberators. The Nazis unfortunately were embedded in their racist ideology that Slavs were a lower class of human and their lands were to be forgeit; eventually disabused the Ukrainians that they had been liberated in any way.

There are strong Ukrainian populations in The United States and Canada, and back East I knew some of 'em. In the U.S. there is more concentration on a celebration of Slavic culture and I've seen more Russian/ Ukrainian fellowship than contention because it is based on music and choreography. There is alos a lot of intermarriage. In that sense they have an English/Irish type relationship thing going.

But no one forgets where the axe is buried.

Earlier on you mentioned books by Deuscher. Your postings have many typos and I think you meant to refer to the historian Isaac Deutscher. My mother had a copy of "The Prophet Armed" which I think I inherited, but I've not read his works. Therefore I can't speak with knowledge about him.

When my father courted my mother, he met many of her co-students, and there were many Communists among them. He never forgot the various sects: Stalinists, Trotskyites, and various hyphenated Socialists. They were founts of various sorts of dogma, more concerned with being true to some 'theory' than real issues of human needs and behaviors. And they all hated each other with mortal venom, and did not hesitate to say so.

It is not the "Communism" per se that I have grown up rejecting, but evil CERTAINTY that has no problem crucifying the innocent on the cross of ideology. I think, judging by your posts and what you choose to hang your hat on versus reject, that you have more than your fair share. To quote somebody you probably do not admire (with reason): "I beseech you, by the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM

Sorry Robo - your posting adds nothing substantial to what has been said - all the first sentence does is set up an aggressive barrier.
I apologise for the typos - can't be bothered to get Deutscher's works down from the shelf to check and my memory isn't what it is
My typos are down to the speed I type - my fingers move faster than my brain nowadays - somewhat ungracious of you to mention it, but there you go.
I read a lot and tend to rely on what I have read rather than anecdotal evidence, though I accept both are important.
I hold no brief for Stalin and what he did, but I think that what the Soviet Union was attempting in the early days was important enough to try and understand.
I was in Czechoslovakia on the morning that the Russians opened the barriers after the invasion and I spent several weeks with people who had taken part in the protests - Velvet Revolutionaries all - I didn't meet one who would wish to swap their system for that in the West - though many envied the material gains.
You choose to use the flaws to attack the system - I would rather understand the flaws so they can be avoided in future
As for Ireland (also a major interest of mine)
The only difference of what happened in their famine and the one we are discussing is that ours was probably deliberately manipulated to solve political problems - I don't believe this was the case with Stalin.
A failure to even consider that makes you a denier of what they refer to here as 'The Irish Holocaust' (which is, quite rightly, illegal when applied to the Jewish one)
If you wish to continue with this, I suggest you do so with the psychoanalyses (or the side use of typos) - we are not good enough friends for you to be accurate.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:39 AM

How did prosperous, oil rich Venezuela become a starving basket case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:38 AM

Speaking of typos
"coworker"
Without the hyphen this appears to refer to someone who does unspeakable things to cows!
Just a thought
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM

As for Ireland (also a major interest of mine)
The only difference of what happened in their famine and the one we are discussing is that ours was probably deliberately manipulated to solve political problems - I don't believe this was the case with Stalin."


Even considering the different ages and the technological advances made in the 87 years that separated the two events I would have thought that if what Carroll states is true the British would have succeeded in killing far, far more of the population of Ireland during the seven years of this "supposed" genocide for a great deal less expenditure. I mean Carroll does keep harping on about how deliberate everything was. The facts of the matter are that the whole thing was mismanaged and as much as Carroll might like to go on about it the facts also show that excluding "Trevelyan's Corn" four times as much grain was exported from the UK TO Ireland during the famine years than was imported into England FROM Ireland. The issue which no historian who has written about the event has ever considered or addressed in their works is the problem of distribution and storage. Carroll and others on this forum in the past have been asked about it and they merely ignore the question and the problem in the hope that it just goes away.

The three factors identified in causing the drop in Ireland's population between 1845 and 1851 are as follows:

1: Emigration
2: Death from disease
3: Death from Starvation

Which tallied together number somewhere between 2.5 and 3 million people according to 1841 and 1851 Census figures.

On the emigration side of things, the British organised free passage to Canada, to sail to the USA you had to pay and you had to have goods, tools or cash equivalent of £10 and been in good health (According to Cecil Woodham-Smyth's book). Carroll mentioned "Coffin Ships" yet the vast majority of them did successfully cross the Atlantic, I would have thought that had the aim of the British Government been genocide as Carroll claims then the British would have ensured that none of them did. Similarly had "genocide" been the aim no aid at all, let alone over £10 millions worth, would have been sent to Ireland.

Stalin on the other hand using all the modern means at his disposal did engage in a campaign of genocide and deliberate slaughter and succeeded in killing anything up to eight times the number of people in just one single year.

Sorry Jom the evidence simply does not stack up to support your theory. By all means keep on dredging it up and I will keep hitting you with cold, hard, historical, recorded facts that disprove your myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:26 PM

Jim:

Your 'ungracious' comment reminded me of an episode of The Simpsons (years ago) where Homer quits his job at the nuclear power plant and learns he has to return and beg for it back because he's going to have a third child (Maggie). Mr. Burns and Smithers make him enter their office through a tiny door marked 'Supplicants' which Homer has to get on the floor to get through: "So you've come crawling back" says Mr. Burns. Homer, all innocence, looks up from the floor and says "Seems the classy thing would be not to draw attention to it!"

Anyhow, I want you to know that I've experienced more than one instance of not knowing for sure what you were trying to say and I have not gone to any trouble to call attention to it 'til now. I understand the phenomenon of beating out a riposte with busy fingers but I've learned to take some time, even frame the post offline in Microsoft Word so no internet spasm will kill off my precious thoughts without backup. I also have the additional time of pre-push-send reflection to meditate on whether or not I really want to post my words.

I feel you have paid not enough attention to several of my posts but I accuse you of nothing other than maybe being more concerned with personal invective than thoughtful arguments. You and I seem to have moderated the personal remarks, and I am going to see if I can learn from that for my future correspondence online.

You and I have, I think, found our points of demarcation, where we are not going to agree. I am with Orwell. I am with Reynaldo Arenas. The systems which exert mind control are the worst. What the Nazis and Communists did to their entire populations, is anathema. They made Europe hell on earth and we should learn those lessons and never repeat those sad evil experiences.

As Heine said, "where books are burnt, men also will be burnt".

Among the problems with my position is that we reasonable people live in a world left to us by fanatics, who are willing to sacrifice more for extremist positions.

You mentioned being in Czechoslovakia when the Soviets were invading. But I don't understand your point. I'm sure the Czechs didn't want their country dominated by force from the Soviets, and it was their very seeking of political/ intellectual freedoms that led to their invasions (and the much bloodier invasion of Hungary in '56). I don't care if it is called 'democratic' or 'western' or 'velvet revolution', it is the seeking of freedom from despotism. What's not to like? It is breaking down the Berlin Wall and letting people live and breathe and think and speak what they want It is not necessary to like it.

Let's look at what happened to Czechoslovakia after the fall of Communism. What was Czechoslovakia is now two separate relatively free countries (the velvet divorce). Go back there and see if they want to go back to where they were.

"we are not good enough friends for you to be accurate" sounds classy but I don't have a clue as to what it means. (Maybe the classy thing is not to draw attention to it).


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

"As Heine said, "where books are burnt, men also will be burnt"."
I don't remember any Communist books being burned - I remember the (right wing) Nazis actually burning book
On the other hand, restricting access to certain books has been a feature of all societies of all political hues - even the Catholic Church in "Holy Ireland" had (and still has) its somewhat arbitrarily chosen "Index of forbidden books"
"You mentioned being in Czechoslovakia when the Soviets were invading. "
Muy point is exactly what it has been all along - you need to distinguish between the objectives of any system and any anomalies that occur while those objectives are being pursued.
Yes - rightly the Czechs didn't want their 'socialism' imposed on them from outside, but they still wished to continue on that road.
Stalin was the anomaly who went a long way to destroying that objective just as (dare I mention it) various Israeli administrations have destroyed the dream of Israel.
The Soviet Union adopted exactly the same policies as the west is doing and has always done - if the policies of those you have influence over doesn't suit you it has to be controlled,
They interfered in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, we are up tpo our arses in interfering in the policies of countries that don't suit us.... Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan...... (not mentioning the clandestine interference that is very much a part of the foreign policy of the west)
We also interfere by proxy by supporting, financing and arming some of the world's most oppressive dictators.
How is this in any way different to what the Soviet Union was doing?
Let's look at what happened top what happened to Czechoslovakia after communism, and all the other newly "free" states.
Chechoslovakia divided peacefully and is now ties into European capitalism, which has allowed it to avoid many of the excesses of a declining system
Yugoslavia entered into a bloody ethnic cleansing war between the separate constituent groups which will remain in our memories for some time to come
Tito did much to keep those groups apart for the whole o his leadership
When I was in Yugoslavia there was no sign of what was to come.
Hungary and Rumania have swung, or are in the process of swinging to the extreme right - European fascism is on the march again.
Need one mention Putin?
China is interesting in that it still clings to aspects of the old system while adopting many of the traits of capitalism - and doing quite well out of it.
Nobody can claim that what has replaced the old system in many of these countries has improved the lot of the people as a whole - Rumania and Poland have become nations of migrants dependent on working abroad, life in Russia is as controlled as it ever was and it's leaders have become a threat to world security.
Prague has become the place to go for child sex.
When I visited these countries I left with a feeling that the people I met believed they were working for a brighter future - now I am left with the impression that the future is totally beyond their control
I bet the people of today's Russia wouldn't refer to a war todat as 'The Patriotic War' as they did in the sixties.
You talk of the Nazis and Soviets in the one sentence as if they were comparable - they are not
Nazism was a built in objective - what happened there was decreed to happen
What happened in the Soviet Union under Stalin, happened despite the objectives of communism, not because of them
Nazism was a natural development of Capitalism in crisis and was fully supported and financed by the German industrial Capitalism in the form of Krupps, Essen and Volksagen, who used the Jewish People as slave labour and sent them to their deaths when they were no longer fit to work
"sounds classy but I don't have a clue as to what it means"
Simples - my wife gets to correct my errors - you, a stranger, don't
Drawing attention to typos is all too often a way of avoiding awkward bits of argument on this forum
Teribus
We really have been over this ad nauseum
The fact of the Irish Famine is that there was enough food available to feed the Irish people four times over yet a million people starved and immigration was forced on millions of others - all this was adopted as a deliberate policy to solve a political problem.
I have no intention of taking this any further with you - you have proved yourself ignorant and intransigent as far as Irish history is concerned and racist in your attitude to the Irish people as a whole.
Four "Carrolls" and a "Jom" is indicative enough that you intend to continue with your defensive loutishness - so why should anybody be arsed with someone who tries to overcome their ignorance by talking down and bullying
Go and get some manners and learn to behave like an adult and we might just have something to say to each other
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:50 PM

Jim:

First things first, thanks for your dense response and for 'splaining your comment about who gets to correct what.

Next: Communists didn't have to burn books. In the case of the Soviet Union, they literally shot letters out of their alphabet! (Would that the Irish would now do the same!)

But seriously, the Communists controlled what could be published in the first place. I'll never forget a Western reporter in a Chinese bookstore in the era of Mao. There was only ONE BOOK for sale! I'll bet N. Korea is similar right this very minute.

Nazis and the Soviet Union were VERY COMPARABLE, top-down political control in the solid grip of a despot, practicing major Cult Of Personality. The Nazis based their society on the false science of race. The Communists on the false science of Marxism/ Dialectical materialism. Oh, and the personalities of Hitler and Stalin, respectively. Reality was made subservient to the needs of the state, so that Darwin's survival of the fittest was extended by the Nazis to enable them to select that the fittest must be people who looked like themselves. The Communists actually denied Darwinism because is indicated that humans were not able to perfect themselves, and Stalin advanced an ignoramus named Lysenko who put Soviet biology in the dustbin for years.

Both societies reeked of hubris.

Your comment about Israel is neither here nor there (plenty of Israelis say the same things). But the irony is major: Early Israeli settlements from the days before independence into the 1970s made use of socialist societies, openly proudly and successfully, while only intermittently successful elsewhere in the West. Perhaps because it was small scale, administered from the bottom up, and not disastrously from the top town as was administered by Chavez in Venezuela, which resulted in a kleptocracy and the current disaster.


A lot of your comments about where today's countries are going are similar to my doubts. But they are made worse by false ideology. Take for example Yugoslavia. Tito as strongman kept it together by force, not rule of law. When his grip ended, all the poison in the mud hatched out, to quote Robert Graves. That is not Nazism, not Coummunism, not Democracy. That is the human condition. I think Clinton was right to lead NATO in limiting Serbia's grip on the region, but it took violence. Something that Clinton chose not to do in Africa, and hundreds of thousands of Rwandans and Somalis and Sudanese have perished. (And we're back to the thread topic Movie References: Hotel Rwanda; Beasts of No Nation)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM

We can do this forever and not get anywhere Robo - throwing Communist-Capitalist atrocities at each other like the 'hand' game - I put my hand down, you put yours on top, then I put my other hand down on yours..... and so ad infinitum
There really doesn't seem much point
As far as I'm concerned, the discussion needs to concentrate on systems, not random flaws.
In 1917, the Russian soldiers walked away from the first and greatest atrocity of the 20th century - WWI - 'The Great Imperial War' as it was then known.
After five months of party-haggling the Bolsheviks took control with their policy of "Bread, Peace and Land" as opposed to the Menshevik's "Go back to the killing fields and we'll sort it out when/if you come home".
Every single problem that the Soviet Union had stems from the fact that Russia was not prepared for a revolution that was thrust on her by the circumstances of a rebellious military refusing to fight, a starving population who was fully prepared to back the soldiers and an Empire ranging from undeveloped Capitalism in the West to Feudalism verging on Nomadism in the East
This was insurmountable enough but was compounded by a hostile Western World which reacted violently to the idea that any major country should adopt a policy based on the philosophy of giving equality of opportunity to all of its people
That was Marx's "Spectre of Communism" exorcised to life.
In my opinion, Russia shouldn't have been the first - it should have been Germany and very nearly was.
Rather than the "your atrocity is bigger than my atrocity" approach we have indulged in so far, that's where I feel we should be going if we are going to get anywhere
As it is so far, you hold up what happened to an American who pulled down a flag - I trump you with seven years of pouring burning petrol on Vietnamese farmers
You put up a bookshop that sold only one book - easily trumpable with centuries of education which taught generation after generation of children that foreigners were inferior, Britannia Ruled the Waves and we should be prepared to roll over and die for the Monarch (who was often believed to have been chosen by God) just like trained dogs - they called it "King and Country".
I'm happy to take this in any direction you wish - all good mental aerobics
It's up to you
Another book for your list if you ever get time 'The Kings Depart' by Richard M Watts - an extremely readable and agenda-less summing up of Europe between the wars
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 04:45 AM

"The fact of the Irish Famine is that there was enough food available to feed the Irish people four times over yet a million people starved and immigration was forced on millions of others - all this was adopted as a deliberate policy to solve a political problem."

Yes Jom, my little Anglophobic scouser, we have been over this ad nauseam, and we will continue to bash on with it every single time you dredge up your favourite myths, misrepresentations and half-truths.

Fact: "There was enough food available to feed the Irish people four times over" - very true but that was coupled with a couple of other facts that you and many others have completely and deliberately failed to hoist in.

1 - There was no means of storing that food
2 - There was no means of distributing it

Back in 1845 to 1851 produce was harvested, sold, transported and resold at market. Livestock was reared, sold on the hoof, transported, slaughtered and sold at market. The time it could hang about was extremely limited otherwise it spoiled. Ireland had to sell it's produce otherwise the "famine" would have been all encompassing.

You and others taking the same view point as yourself have never been able to answer the one question I have asked - How could all this food in Ireland have been transported to the places of greatest and most urgent need? You had no roads, no railways, few large ports, no storage facilities, insufficient draught animals and carts (Besides which you hadn't the grain to feed those draught animals)

Non-Fact: "a million people starved"

Simply put they didn't the estimated death toll was roughly 1.5 million the vast majority of which died from disease not starvation. The min killers were diseases that would not know any cure for another forty years.

Fact: "Immigration was forced on millions"

Even sheep will not stay on hillsides that have no grazing Jom. The people had to move or die, they chose to move and it was migration that accounted for the largest percentage of the drop in population not starvation.

Non-Fact: "All this was adopted as a deliberate policy to solve a political problem."

WHAT POLITICAL PROBLEM?? There was no political problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 04:50 AM

"Yes Jom, my little Anglophobic scouser"
Fuck off until yoiu learn to behave like an adult - but thanks for the vivid wexample of what an insecure little twot you are
Jim Carroll


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