BS: UK General Election

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:04 AM

"I've already stated that I'm not anywhere near what could be considered 'wealthy'. "
Doesn't matter Nigel - it's become a knee-jerk defence against a glaring social anomaly
Your own position is immaterial - that's what you are defending and that's what I'm criticising
It's not as if we haven't been here a thousand times.
Criticism of inequality is not, and never has been envy politics - it is simply a description of what is increasingly wrong with our society.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:02 AM

Welll.. thanks to brexit we will be paying vat on musical instruments and equipment
that are at the moment vat free from affordable European Music gear discount warehouse shops...

Of course... all this means SFA to millionair/investment vintage guitar collectors
like that ex pat Brit spiv git living in Monaco who bought Mick Ronson's Les Paul... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:51 AM

Agreed, but the producer, distributor, shopkeeper all pay other taxes. In order to make a profit, those costs are passed onto the consumer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:43 AM

This may need a little simplification.
VAT is 'Value Added Tax'. Each business in the chain accounts for tax on the value they have added to the transaction.
This is done by reclaiming the VAT they have been charged by their suppliers (from HMRC), and paying the VAT that they charge to their customers (to HMRC).
Where the supply they eventually make is zero-rated (basic foodstuffs, children's clothes, books etc.) they have no VAT to pay across to HMRC, but this does not prevent them reclaiming the VAT they have been charged by their suppliers. As such, there is no VAT included in the sale, even in the costs of making that sale.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:21 AM

Nigel I am aware that most food is not taxed, however the company that produce the food pay tax, they pass on that cost to the consumer, the transportation of that food uses diesel, that diesel is taxed and the cost passed onto the consumer, all the on-costs of producer and distributor, even the shops own costs are passed onto the consumer.etc etc.

VAT is non variable in terms that we ALL pay the same amount for any given item. Simples.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:57 AM

We all need food, part of the cost of that food is the cost of transportation, fuel costs. That fuel is taxed and we as individuals all pay for that cost. If someone earns £100 a week or £10,000 a week we are all taxed the same.

VAT on items is non variable for instance, many other examples could be given.

Not strictly true, nor accurate.
VAT is not non-variable. It can be (in UK) at rates of 20%, 5%, or Zero%. (Exempt VAT is another matter)
To a great extent VAT replaced purchase tax, or luxury tax. As such basic foodstuffs are zero-rated for VAT, so you don't pay VAT on them. Nor do you pay VAT on the transportation costs on that food.
Luxuries still attract VAT, and one would expect the poorest paid to be spending a higher percentage of their disposable income on necessities, rather than luxuries. So even the impact of VAT will be greater on the 'better off'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM

the top 1% already pay more than 1/4 of the nation's income tax.

That really does sum up what I am on about. Just consider how much they have left after paying their taxes. Do you really think and extra few pence on their tax will make a difference to their lives? Will they not be able to afford to buy food or medicine or heat their home? If they are contributing 25% of the total tax revenue, just how much do you think they are earning?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:35 AM

We must also realise that income tax is a direct taxation.

We are taxed irrespective of our income on all manner of other things, by indirect taxation.

We all need food, part of the cost of that food is the cost of transportation, fuel costs. That fuel is taxed and we as individuals all pay for that cost. If someone earns £100 a week or £10,000 a week we are all taxed the same.

VAT on items is non variable for instance, many other examples could be given.

The taxation system is not entirely fair or equal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM

Then just try and imagine how large their income must be ..........

............... poor little darlings.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:20 AM

Sorry - Should make myself clearer. All I am saying is that instead of telling the 95% of us that own 5% of the wealth we should tighten our belts and give up our social care the government should be concentrating on the 5% who can well afford to give up a portion of what they have to maintain a good system. The theory of wealth 'filtering down' just does not work.
Yes, but there is only so much that can be done. Never mind the top 5%, the top 1% already pay more than 1/4 of the nation's income tax.


As for Jim Carroll's "Ding ding, I'm on the bus". I've already stated that I'm not anywhere near what could be considered 'wealthy'. so his comments can't be meant for me. (I'm part of the '95%' too)
But he does seem to respond (at length) without caring to read what he's responding to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 09:16 AM

A ton!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:43 AM

"but the politics of envy don't help."
Neither does such crass comments as that Nigel
The problem with Tories is they can't see the difference between asking that wealth and privilege be divided fairly (if not equally)
There's nothing fair about this (sorry - you can't blue clickie The Independent)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-divided-decade-the-rich-are-64-richer-than-before-the-recession-while-the-poor-are-57-10097038.html
NOR THIS
THere's nothing "envious about wanrting to put that right, but there's a hell of a lot of smugness in describing wishing to do so "envious"
Somewhat, "ding, ding, I'm on the bus", in my opinionion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM

"In the future it is entirely possible that some people will have several different jobs, especially those involved in seasonal industries."

Tell me Ake, will you be one of these people?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:53 AM

And the effect of a CEO is more limited than you might imagine, according to Harvard Business Review

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:57 AM

Sorry - Should make myself clearer. All I am saying is that instead of telling the 95% of us that own 5% of the wealth we should tighten our belts and give up our social care the government should be concentrating on the 5% who can well afford to give up a portion of what they have to maintain a good system. The theory of wealth 'filtering down' just does not work.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:52 AM

Yes, there is some middle ground, Nigel. Unregulated capitalism has been shown to be a disaster as was the communist model of east Europe. As to This is very much the same position the Conservative Party find themselves in I am afraid that has proven to be completely untrue with the present administration. They have shown themselves to be the lapdogs of rich media moguls and powerful corporations over and over again.

I doubt we will get much better after the election and I have fears for the education and health care of my grandchildren. If the wealth was distributed so just a tiny fraction of that 95% of wealth went into education and health care those fears may be allayed.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM

Plenty of Tories around who DON'T know that we should leave the EU, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:40 AM

Duplicated some of your points there, Dave. I posted before I read yours. Your straw man is my Aunt Sally, I see! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address
So what position between the above, and equal distribution of wealth do you advocate?

You clearly disagree with the current distribution, but also appear to agree that equal distribution is not viable. Presumably there is some point in the middle that would suit you, but what is it?

This is very much the same position the Conservative Party find themselves in, but they are howled down for knowing that we should leave the EU even though there is no definite aim for exactly where they should position the country in its future relations with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:36 AM

Ah, how easy it is to get sucked Into this "politics of envy" thing. Advocating more fairness than we have now is not envy, Nigel. I've had that thrown at me this week for suggesting that fee-paying schools shouldn't exist. As a matter of fact we could quite easily have afforded to send our two to fee-paying schools had we chosen to organise our finances a bit differently. We didn't do so because we wanted them to mix with the whole spectrum of children and learn how to motivate themselves without pushy parents chasing up their big "financial investment" in them (though we could be pretty pushy for other reasons). Your more pay for more responsibility argument falls down badly in two ways. First, a CEO who pays himself a hundred times more than the lady who cleans the toilets in his office suite is not working a hundred times harder. Ah, you say, but his job carries far more responsibility. Really? So, second point, how easy it is to throw around that word "responsibility." I take it that you're referring to responsibility for maintaining the profits so that the shareholders' dividends won't collapse, or responsibility for setting up a business model that pays producers as little as possible but which charges as high a price for the goods as possible. I suppose the Barclay brothers' accountants are extremely highly-paid, as they are responsible for shielding the brothers' massive wealth from the taxman. Well I'm not prepared, and neither should you be, to put that alongside the responsibility that comes with the job of a care home worker who has to attend to the physical and mental wellbeing of old, sick people, often through the night, often involving very unpleasant tasks, or the responsibility that comes with healthcare workers in hospitals who are responsible for ensuring that deadly infections don't spread through the wards. They're pretty low-paid, aren't they? Is that fair, d'you think?

And I don't think anyone here is advocating absolutely equal pay for everyone. That's your Aunt Sally I'm afraid. Even the most ardent socialist accepts the need for incentives for people to better themselves, believe it or not. It's a matter of proportion though, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM

Unfortunately cloud-cuckoo land.
Complete redistribution of the wealth would make everyone equal

Who said anything about complete and equal distribution of Wealth, Nigel? Certainly not me. I have long advocated responsible capitalism as part of the way forward. You have set up a straw man to be, quite rightly, knocked down but no one has suggested equal distribution of wealth. Just a fairer share. That can never be achieved by a party that panders to the richest few while ignoring the needs of the rest. If you think it is right that 5% of the people on this planet own 95% of wealth it is you who are living in the land of the cloud cuckoo. Whatever one of those is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:54 AM

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address and you have already shown your colours on where you stand on that by stating you will vote Tory. Come out of the 1930s mentality and wake up to the fact that things have moved on since you were a lad. Thankfully.

Unfortunately cloud-cuckoo land.
Complete redistribution of the wealth would make everyone equal (very briefly)but if all jobs paid equally, who would want to be a manager or entrepreneur. There's no increased pay to go with the increased responsibility. Our current society has reached this stage because people strove to "better" themselves. This is the result of centuries of striving. People can still improve their situation by striving, but the politics of envy don't help.

And no, I'm not rich. I'm a government employee, but a realist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:20 AM

'We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed.'

quite right. lets get rid of the sewage system - go back to dumping shit in the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM

when will people realise that we may not always depend on getting "what we want"

Had you asked that question of the top 5% that own 95% of all the wealth it would make sense. But you seem to be asking it of the 95% that own 5% of the wealth. When will you realise that it is not wealth that is the issue. It is the distribution of it that you need to address and you have already shown your colours on where you stand on that by stating you will vote Tory. Come out of the 1930s mentality and wake up to the fact that things have moved on since you were a lad. Thankfully.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM

"We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed"

Meanwhile the rich get richer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:50 AM

"
We're not incapable but we may not want to. Ask the farmers. "

I see the points I have been making have been completely ignored, when will people realise that we may not always depend on getting "what we want".

In the future it is entirely possible that some people will have several different jobs, especially those involved in seasonal industries.

We have been living well beyond our means for decades, time for a reality check.
Regardless of the Independence question, the whole of the UK needs to re-evaluate "work" and status within society.

The days when everything was about money are behind us and that means examining the role that money has afforded a minority of our citizens.
We cant afford the lifestyle to which many of us have become accustomed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:31 AM

And a good article here - Think Jeremy Corbyn is a loser? Oh dear, you've been brainwashed…

Enjoy

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM

Interesting analysis here - How to vote to beat the Tories

Someone has done their homework. Hope it is useful.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:23 AM

The Brexit vote is the huge spanner in this election. True, ake, the decision to leave has been made, but no party has sorted out even a vision of the relationship afterwards. So the leavers have every reason to vote in the way they think strengthens their view, even if they are traditionally aligned to another party. Equally, the remainers.

So I would not want to assume Mrs May will end up with an increased majority. She might, of course. But she might not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 09:29 PM

That kind of seasonal harvesting has for centuries been dependant on migrant workers, whether from far corners of Britain or Ireland, or from elsewhere. Modern transport and other factors make it more practical for such people to stick around - after all different crops, typically in different areas, need harvesting at different times of year.

That's not the kind of lifestyle the settled English choose to go in for generally. That's not laziness, it's just not suited to most people's family life. But such migrants aren't in fact generally taking jobs that the locals would be working in. The shortage of those kind of jobs in such areas is down to other factors.

There'll still be a need for just as many immigrants of various sorts when Brexit finally kicks in, and our comfy fall ends on the hard pavement, but a lot of them won't choose to come to this country - that's already being demonstrated in the NUS, with the exodus of tens of thousands of EU nurses, doctors and other staff.

As has been said already, even if Mrs May cons voters into giving her a victory this time, in 2022 the election will be traumatic for her. But that's a big "if" - remember, no one dreamed Churchill would lose, and lose badly, in 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:50 PM

the thing is Steve.property has always been a lot cheaper in these areas. you probably stand a better chance of owning property picking peas in Lincolnshire than being a primary school teacher in LOndon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:17 PM

We're not incapable but we may not want to. Ask the farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 07:27 PM

i come from Lincolnshire. WE used to pick the flowers and vegetables. And no - it wasn't paid very well.A lot of Irish people used to come over in harvest time. Students. and strangely enough badly paid English people.

Strange that you think we are incapable of working in our own fields.

Rather like the hosiery and clothes manufacturing - we were rather good at it. Many people thought there was a massive dropping off in quality in stores like Marks and Spencer after they started manufacturing abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 06:28 PM

Ake the point for me is self determination. What relationship Scotland then has with the EU is secondary to that and up to Scots voters. I see the logic of people who want to remain in the UK but personally I struggle to see the logic in someone wanting independence but putting their vote for a party which is blocking the Scottish people's right to decide if they want independence or not!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:49 PM

Try googling the name, aken.
.......
Remember, there are, as always been the case, only a minority of the population who vote Tory. If those who dislike them vote, and vote intelligently so as to get rid of them, they'll be swept away. It's only our shabby electoral system that gives them a majority in Parliament.

The same goes for Labour - the natural "party" of government in the UK (while it exists) is a left of centre coalition, reflecting the actual wishes of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:41 PM

Vote Labour anyway, Bonzo. They will lose this election big time and Jeremy will have to go. There is blood to be shed. I hate to say all that and I desperately want to be wrong.

Akenaton's main confusion is that he thinks his arse is his brain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

The reality is that the Prime Minister can call a snap election whenever and for whatever, subject to approval by MPs under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. If it is thought that the ruling party can become more dominant or lance some internal boils by calling an election then this is the route they will follow. It does require supreme confidence in the outcome however. With dodgy dave's referendum fiasco I would say calling an election early could give rise to totally unexpected results. All we need now is for the Prime Minister to resign her seat andd we will know that brexit is doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:04 PM

Brexit is no longer up for debate that debate was won months ago.

All Mrs May needs is to be able to fight without her arms being held by sore "liberals", self serving MPs and most of the contents of "another place"........no not the shithouse, but you're close.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:38 PM

Don't know what you're getting at Mr McGrath, but sorry for the typo anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:35 PM

If Corbyn had only said "We are ready to allow you to have an election - but on condition that you agree to take part in a face-to face TV debate with your rivals", I wonder what she'd have done?

She's clearly scared of going into a face-to-face debate, but I can't think how she could have got out of that one. I imagine she'd have said "Of course I am eager to have a debate". Even if she changed her mind the next day, which would be consistent on her part, it would have been embarassing. And in a proper debate Corbyn's strengths and Theresa's weaknesses could have shown up in a way that the knockabout nonsense of PMQs doesn't permit so well. That's why she's running scared of risking such a debate.

It's all right being honest and decent, but a bit of low cunning is also helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:13 PM

I think Corbyn is fine but the media have done an excellent hatchet job on him. Sadly, half the population seem to believe what the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere tell them so he will face an uphill struggle no matter how good he may be. Too late to do anything now but if he does not improve the parties profile during and after the election it may be curtains for him. I see Starmer being a much better leader than Benn.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM

You could not be more wrong......tho' I hesitate to call you an idiot.


Well Ake - in your case in light of recent your posts, in your case I wouldn't hesitate one whit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:22 PM

Vacuum-assisted closure is more the topic of discussion in our house, or currently in my wife's hospital room, where I'm currently spending all non sleeping/working time!

May is little more than a "founders' day hat lady", and corbyn is little more than a facebook joke!!! If Labour saw sense and replaced corbyn with Hilary Benn, then I would surely vote labour!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:00 PM

You seem to confuse "Socialist" with "liberal".

And you, ake, seem to be confusing being a socialist with voting for the complete polar opposite.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 01:54 PM

Ake, if they are socialists they are internationalists. What you are describing are right wing trade unionists.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 01:41 PM

This Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa...

Of course if you intend to vote for Teresa May (as opposed to Theresa May) that puts a rather different complexion on it. The two ladies exhibit a strikingly different image.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:59 PM

Dave, this election will be about Brexit. I know many socialists who want the UK out of the EU.

You seem to confuse "Socialist" with "liberal". You could not be more wrong......tho' I hesitate to call you an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:51 PM

Raggytash...or course we will require "unskilled labour" a misnomer if ever I saw one.
In this part of Scotland, most work used to be centred round small farming and whole generations grew up learning the skills of horticulture and animal husbandry.

There are plenty of people who would rather perform work to such purpose rather than exist in one of Scotlands drug infested, poverty ridden, soul destroying sinks.

A life on benefits must not be an option and work of any description must be given status and value if it is in the interests of the new economy. As I said before, with Independence must come a new thought process and a sense of worth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:48 PM

I am a social conservative, and a socialist politically.

This Scottish Socialist will be voting for Teresa and the Conservative Party

Is it me or does anyone else think that anyone who says they are a socialist yet will vote conservative is either a liar or an idiot?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 12:31 PM

I am pretty sure we just said the same thing, Nigel. The referendum was a result of the Tories panicking and getting their knickers in twist over the popular view that those damned furriners were taking over our little island. Verhofstadt had the right idea although his words may not have been spot on. Then again his English is a lot better than my Flemish.

DtG