BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?

Subject: Theresa May on fox hunting
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 May 17 - 06:11 PM

So, if Theresa May were re-elected, she would put fox-hunting on the ballot, even though it is banned?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 17 - 06:15 PM

Parliament can change any of the laws set by previous Parliaments. So there is no technical reason why not.

That is not to say I think it sensible, desirable or a good use of Parliaments time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:13 AM

If you saw lambs ripped apart by foxes you would not care what method is used to keep fox numbers under control, even the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:21 AM

So, if Theresa May were re-elected, she would put fox-hunting on the ballot, even though it is banned?
Just as labour put it to the ballot to get it banned even though it was legal!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: gillymor
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:54 AM

Civilization marches on...backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:04 AM

Well Iains, I know what rips lambs apart near where we live, and it isn't foxes, it is uncontrolled or inadequately controlled dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:06 AM

"If you saw lambs ripped apart by foxes you would not care what method is used to keep fox numbers under control"

So you realise that's not the fault of the indigenous wildlife, right?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:26 AM

I understand fully the problems with foxes. Here in Norfolk, the poultry farmers of free-range stock are often troubled by them.
But there are other, more humane ways of controlling the fox population than hunting with hounds.
I've always thought that the goal of the Fox Hunts isn't the control of foxes at all, but to have a jolly good day out in the winter months, giving one's prize hunter some exercise and to hobnob with like-minded folk. It's more a social event than a vermin-control sortie.
And it's unspeakably cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 07:30 AM

David Carter you may know what happens in your neck of the woods. I know what happens in mine. It ain't dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 07:42 AM

"And it's unspeakably cruel."
Be fair Sen - it might be Theresa May's solution for solving unemployment and the hospital crisis.
Put the sick and idle to work providing their betters with a little entertainment!!
Otherwise - you are quite right - killing for pleasure can never be jusified.
As a young apprentice, I was taken by a tradesman to see a coursing match at Waterloo (Merseyside)
I witnessed 'a string' - two dogs fighting over a live hare intul they had torn in in half, while the crowd stood around betting on which dog would end up with the head end.
I don't know which was more upsetting to experience - the two dogs doing what came naturally to them or the howls of the punters
I've never lost the sound of the tortured animal's shrieks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:09 AM

Ugh Jim, how barbaric.
I must add, I'm not a squeamish person. One of my colleagues, when I was teaching, went shooting every weekend, and on Mondays handed me his game bag with some goodies in. (His wife had no more room in the freezer!) It was free as long as I was prepared to pluck, skin and gut the game.
These were pigeons and rabbits, which my colleague's father had problems with on his arable farm, shot cleanly and instantly.
I knew how to deal with them (my mother had taught me) so I skinned the rabbits, plucked the pigeons then jointed and casseroled them.
Our cats enjoyed crunching the bits, and the casseroles were delicious.
Not one of the other members of staff (twenty or so) could face doing this, but as I said, I didn't mind at all.
But if the poor creatures had been tortured in any way, I'd have had no part in it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 17 - 09:24 AM

If you saw lambs ripped apart by foxes

Then there's foxes ripped apart by dogs...... but tht's OK ain't it Iains?

About that degree in Engineering?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: gillymor
Date: 23 May 17 - 09:34 AM

There's got be a far more humane and efficient way of dealing with foxes than chasing down a single fox with a bunch of horses and a pack of dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:09 AM

Greg F. Then there's foxes ripped apart by dogs...... but tht's OK ain't it Iains? Yup. tht's perfectly ok

I do not have a problem with foxes torn apart by dogs, they are not part of my food chain, although there are probably more efficient ways of culling, as has already been stated.
Why the fixation on engineering? You must think it adds a certain je ne sais quoi to a post.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:48 AM

I do not have a problem with foxes torn apart by dogs

So you're one of those "there are good animals(domestic) and there are bad animals(wild)" throwbacks to the 19th Century? Also, you might add dogs to your food chain; many cultures find them delicious.

RE:possible Engineering degree, just a point of interest;you seem to exhibit the symptoms many enginners present from the disease they acquire through their intensive arrogance and infallibility training.

There's got be a far more humane and efficient ways of dealing with foxes

There assuredly are, but what fun would they be?? Studies also demonstrate that fox hunting with hounds does jack squat to control the fox population.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 11:09 AM

Greg F "So you're one of those "there are good animals(domestic) and there are bad animals(wild)" throwbacks to the 19th Century?"

How quaint! Certain domestic annimals are raised to become part of the food chain. Annimals that act to destroy them such as foxes are generally culled whenever possible. Simple economics. Do you plant corn in order to burn it prior to harvest?
What a unique mindset you have. I trust it is nothing catching.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:00 PM

Foxes torn apart by dogs (with which Iains has 'no problem') is wicked, cruel and unnecessary. There are other ways of controlling vermin.

I wonder if people like Iains have any imagination at all. The fox is absolutely terrified, runs until it can run no more, gasping for breath (for hours sometimes) and then faces the teeth of an entire pack of dogs. No living creature of any species deserves this.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with 'culling'. It's the manner in which it's carried out that disgusts.

And a bunch of horse-riders chasing one single fox can (as said by Greg and gillymor) hardly do much to address the situation.
They're doing it for 'fun', let's be honest, not vermin control.

And before anyone says I know nothing about it, I was a good rider many years ago, and took part in drag hunts (no live prey, just a scent trail) It is exhilarating and I quite understand that part.

Fox-hunting is on a level with bear-baiting, cock-fighting and hare-coursing.
One hopes we have progressed a bit from those barbaric days.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:34 PM

" I trust it is nothing catching."

THere'll be nothing to catch one the dickhead farmers* have extirpated all the wildlife on these islands. The so-called guardians of the land aren't as wise in the ways of the natural world as they like to think they are. IF they had a clue about ecology, they'd never act the way most of them do.** Fox hunting is just a pleasure for those who get their yah-yah's by watching cruelty and suffering. Twats.



*Grousehooters and gamekeepers, industrial trawlers, badger baiters, scallop dredgers, drift netters, cock fighters, dog fighters, donkey shaggers etc etc


**Notice I said most. There are some farmers who DO understand that modern farming practices are trashing the natural diversity and abundance of our Isles. However, most seem to be riding high on the tractor of subsidy whilst drenching the land in nitrates and injecting our meat with all sorts of crap whilst killing as much wildlife as they can. See also: Bees, hares, lapwings, wildflower meadows, ANY bird of prey, birds in general, ancient hedgerows, archaeological remains ("plough those barrows boys!"), dormice, bats, ancient woodland, overgrazed uplands, etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:53 PM

You're right Stu, and it's a very gloomy picture of financial gain at the expense of natural diversity of species.
Our Norfolk Wildlife Trust strives to educate and intervene wherever possible. Some farmers do, as you say, understand the precariousness of our wildlife. But most are in it for profit and nothing else.

However, when a livestock farmer finds his lambs massacred or his chickens slaughtered, his dairy cows failing their TB tests due (perhaps) to badgers transferring the disease, his crops gobbled up by crows and so on, he/she must feel beleaguered.

I have no answers to all that. But if some wildlife has to be controlled, let it be done humanely.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:25 PM

Stu, I think you will find that EU subsidies put quite severe constraints on what farmers can and cannot do with their land.Many of the practises you accuse farmers of are illegal in any EU juristriction, and increasingly non standard agricultural practises are becoming subject to planning permission. Bats are a protected species as are many other species of wildlife. Overgrazed uplands are a matter of opinion. In Ireland the opposite has become the case on many commonages. As the vegetation ages it's nutritional value and palatability diminishes and thus diminishes the value of the grazing.In reality the vegetational types on the uplands are a result of anthropogenic influences rather than a natural plant progression. I do not agree with many farming practisies especially arable, but unfortunately we have developed a system requiring high mechanisation with high inputs for high outputs. Thus is the way to cheap food. It is a rare person can act on the moral high ground and accept the consequent massacre of income. To change the present system will take far far more than just vilifying farmers.

On a happier note I refer you to the Irish GLAS scheme
There are many positives as well.
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmerschemespayments/glas/

and the Hen Harrier habitat mapping:
https://www.npws.ie/news/hen-harrier-spa-habitat-map-viewer-published

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:32 PM

you see a lot of foxes coming home after a gig. the most i ever used to see was on that road out of Manchester through Stockport, going from pizza house, halal kfc's, fish and chip shops......

of course you couldn't take the hunt though the back streets of Stockport

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:58 PM

I wonder if people like Iains have any imagination at all.

Whilst I wonder if people like Iains -e.g. "facts are irrelevant" - have any intelligence at all, based on what he/she has posted here.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:15 PM

In our last village, there was a beautiful bright orange fox who would stroll past our patio doors mid-morning (he obviously wasn't nocturnal!) nearly every day, gaze into our sitting room and stroll off again. (Our large garden was surrounded by fields, with no fences) He truly was magnificent, and very big.
I grew to love the sight of him, and the thought of his being torn to pieces in terror and agony breaks my heart.

There are also 'urban foxes' nearer to Norwich (I've seen them often in Catton for example) rooting through bins and hunting rats etc. They have young cubs trotting beside them at this time of year. And they get killed on the roads. But I presume it's instantaneous.

I wouldn't say I was overly sentimental, but wildlife has always been a great joy to me. It costs nothing to be humane and compassionate.

(Except big hairy spiders...!)

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:19 PM

And earwigs!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:20 PM

I know quite a lot about foxes, living in a remote area.
The farmers which used to keep sheep were always troubled by them, the farming community employed a gamekeeper who used every trick in the book to eradicate them.

Foxes are not nice animals, they are one of the few wild animals who kill and mutilate their victims for fun.
When they break into a poultry coupe, they will kill everything in it perhaps carrying away only one carcase.

I remember as a child going into our henhouse to be met with what looked like as scene from a horror movie decapitated carcases litters the floor legs ripped off, heads scattered everywhere and not one body had been removed.

Shed no tears for Mr Fox.......remember the "sly bold Reynardine."

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:33 PM

I know akenaton, I know this happens. But a fox is an animal not a terrorist. It operates by instinct not malice aforethought.
I agree they need controlling. But NOT with cruelty or for sport.
A fox being quickly shot is not so heartbreaking as a fox being hunted, terrified and ripped to bits.

I get very cross when seagulls poo on my washing. But I don't want to torture them to death. It's paranoid to imagine they're plotting to ruin as much of my husband's underwear as possible.
There are ways round all these annoyances.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:38 PM

Iains: We need to change how we grow our food if we are to retain any wildlife diversity, including foxes, badgers and birds of prey. The village where I live is surrounded by arable land, including a large field at the end of the garden. This field is a biodiversity desert; it's farmed for sileage and contains pretty much one type of grass and nothing else. This provides cover for the odd pheasant but even the rabbits don't visit much. Our neighbours have been here for over 50 years and they remember a far more vibrant ecosystem being present, with hares boxing in the field. We've never seen a hare here in the decade we've lived in the house, the badgers in the sett opposite mysteriously disappeared and the setts filled in... hmmm.

"his dairy cows failing their TB tests due (perhaps) to badgers transferring the disease"

Vaccination and controls over movement would go a long way to sorting this (including vaccinating the badgers), and unless you're going to kill EVERY badger in the country then this is the only way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:47 PM

Hmmm....quite often they are not "quickly" shot, they are wounded and die a slow painful death from starvation......or are poisoned, it is still used tho' nominally illegal.

I don't think the anti foxhunting lobby really care about animal cruelty and really want to abolish things which don't fit in with a "rights on" ideology. At the moment they are hunting greyhound racing although it is about the best regulated sports in existence.
If they really cared they would be campaigning against factory farming of animals.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:17 PM

Greyhound racing in UK is not well-regulated. There is much abuse, and the dogs are treated as a commodity not living animals. We have several charities in Norfolk dedicated to intervention and rescue. Many injured dogs aren't treated by vets as they should be, and others are kept for long periods isolated in cages between races. Their lives are not happy.
I donate when I can to these charities.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:53 PM

You tell 'em Eliza!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:01 PM

Greg F

"I wonder if people like Iains have any imagination at all."

Any fool can hurl insults but unlike you I can construct a sentence and present an argument. The bulk of your posts do not contain sufficient words to make either a sentence, or any kind of sense. Pray continue the gibbering.

Ake. As you say anyone out shooting a fox with a rifle or shotgun cannot guarantee a killing shot. A quick death from hounds upsets certain sensibilities but a lingering death from infected wounds is apparently OK. No method of culling can be guaranteed humane, hell we cannot even guarantee humane slaughter in an abbatoir. (let alone the non stunning of cattle prior to halal slaughter)

Stu: I cannot dispute what you state. Factory farming of both crops and annimals inevitably restricts biodiversity. But factory farming maximises food production. How to break out of this vicious cycle is going to be quite an accomplishment and I have no idea how it can be achieved. We may have clever scientists that can boost yields, but these same scientists gave us DDT, thalidomide and nuclear bombs. The march of human progress is littered with dead ends and minefields. And by the way movement controls have been in force for decades, although becoming increasingly stringent. I had my first movement book in 1980.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:08 PM

So no problem with foxes being torn apart by dogs, because they aren't part of your food chain, iains. So the probllem is that the lambs killed by the foxes aren't available for you to est yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:14 PM

McGrath of Harlow
OR YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:21 PM

Sorry Sen your post on greyhound racing is full of fallacies perpetuated by people with no knowledge of greyhound regulation.
As the only licence holder here I can assure you that abuse is extremely rare. Doges are in track kennels once per week at most for up to three hours.....the track kennels are well heated and lit.
As far as regulation goes greyhounds are the best protected and regulated of all animals. When my dogs finish racing I have to either keep them as pets, pay to have them rehomed with a registered homing agency, or re-home them myself.
If I choose the latter option, I have to provide the name and address of the new owner to the Greyhound Racing Board of Great Britain, the board then sends out inspectors to examine the new home to make sure it is suitable and follow up with other visits to ensure that the dog is being well looked after.
It is in the interests of all trainer to make sure the dogs are in good condition....the typical feeding regime of these dogs is much superior to that of many humans, as are their living conditions which are inspected regularly.

I wish people like you would take the time to visit a racing kennel(they have regular open days) before knocking a great and historic sport.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:50 PM

Then why is there a Greyhound Rescue branch in nearly every county in England?
I'm not saying you personally are a cruel dog owner, but there are many whose greyhounds are not well treated, and have to be homed by these charities.
Believe me, I've seen the most distressing photos of some of these animals, pitifully thin, suffering from old injuries, only able to walk slowly. I know several members of the Norfolk Greyhound Rescue, and I don't imagine they make all this up!

'People like you...' ? There's only one of me akenaton. I'm not at the head of an entire army of Senoufous!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:32 PM

We've got one of the relatively few dog racing stadiums in Souther England here in Harlow. One result is that there are lots of retired greyhounds around the place as family pets.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:35 PM

what exactly is the point of fox hunting?
Like I said, if you wanted to kill foxes you would be better off charging round the back street of Stockport, Nottingham and Leicester.

of course they do call it a 'rural pursuit'. i can't help thinking you would catch more with nets and snares and skilled shooters. i think its bullshit about wounding them. obviously - you're not using the right kind of gun. bullets exist that could vaporise the little bastards.

Since the ban have farmers been more bothered with foxes?   if so - get it done properly by exterminators who know what they're doing.

are you sure there are no environmental consequences of getting shut of them?

lets face it the upper classes are a drain on all of us. they sit on all the country's wealth - invest it in banks that invest it abroad. the hunting ban is a chance to give them a smack in the gob. i like seeing foxes, but if they are a real nuisance - lets do it efficiently, not leave it to those idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:36 PM

You're right there iains, I eat lamb, and I don't eat foxes. But I don't see that as reason to shrug off what happens when my fellow lamb-eaters get hunted to death.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:56 PM

Well as a country dweller these past thirty years I can tell you that illegal foxhunting still goes on apace. You don't have to believe me, of course. The bloody thing is well nigh impossible to police and the hunters know it. When the ban was threatened, a big part of the hunting lobby's case was that they were preserving valuable fox habitat that had a really good knock-on effect on other wildlife. What they were saying, of course, was that they weren't interested in wiping out foxes at all. They wanted their bloodsport and they would maintain habitat in order to keep it going. How nice of them!

Hunting is a pastime for brainless twats who would kill anything that moves. The farmers round here train their kids to shoot at crows just for target practice. They have time to kill because their fields are full of low-maintenance elephant grass that has everything to do with making a profit without work and nothing to do with producing food.

But I wouldn't ban hunting or bullfighting or any other allegedly cruel sport. Good argument and ridicule are the way to go and our politicians have more urgent stuff to deal with. It's amazing how some people get all hoity-toity abut foxhunting yet they think nothing of buying cheap barn eggs or a chicken that was raised in a dark barn all its life with 50000 other birds.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:14 AM

Some of the farmers. And no, I haven't been got at! Got to be fair.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:15 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:35 PM
lets face it the upper classes are a drain on all of us. they sit on all the country's wealth - invest it in banks that invest it abroad. the hunting ban is a chance to give them a smack in the gob.

During the previous hunting debate the hunters said it was just people taking their opportunity to have a go at the well-off.

It seems that they were right.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:35 AM

i'm not sure its the well off - just the upper classes and those that suck up to them.

fair game, i'd say! tally ho!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:47 AM

Many years ago I used to follow a certain hunt. I recall the Huntmaster at that time was a plasterer by trade. I had no idea plasterers were apparently so well remunerated. The remainder of the hunt comprised a liquorice all-sorts of trades and professions.

Big AL
" i think its bullshit about wounding them. obviously - you're not using the right kind of gun. bullets exist that could vaporise the little bastards."

Utter garbage. A shotgun is by far the safer weapon to use, as the killing range is very restricted. Using a rifle(assuming you can obtain a license) poses a potential danger to anyone within range 1.e.around 1500yards aimed out to 5 miles+ as a random shot.(using a 0.303 as an example) How many hunters get shot in America each hunting season? with a fraction of the population density of the UK. Better a half dead fox than a dead human being.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:08 AM

Foxes are not nice animals, they are one of the few wild animals who kill and mutilate their victims for fun.
When they break into a poultry coupe, they will kill everything in it perhaps carrying away only one carcase.

Myth. From The Fox website

Why do foxes kill for pleasure?

They don't. However, when the opportunity arises, foxes kill surplus prey even if they are not hungry and cache (bury) it for later use. This is a very sensible strategy in the wild, since there are likely to be some days when hunting is a lot less successful, and so the fox can eat the prey killed earlier. However, in an unnatural situation such as in a hen house, where the prey cannot escape, this behaviour, called "surplus killing", leads to the fox killing far more prey than it could ever consume.

Lots more very useful information and myth dispellation on that site too including

Overall, lamb losses to foxes are very low, and fox predation is much less important than other causes of lamb mortality. Higher than average levels of lamb mortality are associated with poor standards of husbandry, and so the most cost effective way to reduce lamb losses is better husbandry.

I suggest that everyone should avail themselves of this free resource from the Mammal Group of the University of Bristol.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:26 AM

"Overall, lamb losses to foxes are very low, and fox predation is much less important than other causes of lamb mortality. Higher than average levels of lamb mortality are associated with poor standards of husbandry, and so the most cost effective way to reduce lamb losses is better husbandry."

A very sweeping assertion, no evidence provided to back it up.
Lamb mortality can be from many varied causes. The cause under discussion is foxes and as you state they kill surplus prey. The other causes are hardly relevant to this particular discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:37 AM

A very sweeping assertion, no evidence provided to back it up.

The statement was from the University of Bristol Mammmals group and while I have no confirmation that they have evidence I have every reason to believe that such a group would not make a such a statement with no evidence. It is a question of who do we believe, A university research group or a bloke on the Mudcat. I know where my money is.

Have you actually been on the site? You may find it interesting. I first found it when we moved to the Yorkshire dales. In the middle of sheep country, With no apparent issues with foxes...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:44 AM

Don't try to confuse Iains with facts, Dave. Thus I won't bother to correct the nonsense he's posted about ballistics and U.S. hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:44 AM

Forgot to add this from the same site

Has the hunting ban had an impact on fox numbers?

No: Lord Burns' inquiry into hunting with dogs in England and Wales concluded that "hunting by registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population". A study on the impact of the hunting ban during the 2001 foot-and-mouth epidemic showed that there was no change in fox numbers even though hunting was stopped for nearly a year. A study in upland areas of Wales during the winter of 2003/2004 showed that hunting by gun packs did not reduce fox numbers. In fact the trend was for fox numbers to go up slightly because more foxes than were killed moved in to fill the empty territories. So it is hardly surprising that the ban on hunting, which came into effect on 18 February 2005, has had no effect.

But, if a University research unit cannot be believed I suppose we have to rely on the Daily Mail, Mudcat and that bloke in the pub who knows everything...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 17 - 10:53 AM

"The Fox website".......well, they WOULD say that....wouldn't they?

I can just see them, the sly bastards, sitting in a circle and making up shit to spin for the resident Gnome. Wagging their bushy tails with evil mirth.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 May 17 - 12:16 PM

Funnily enough, my farmer grandfather's opinion about foxes and chickens was that keeping the chickens safe was a matter of good husbandry. Same idea as Bristol.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 12:25 PM

That's not bad for you, ake. Presuming you meant it to be funny and you don't really think the site is actually written by foxes. Difficult to tell with someone who usually talks though their arse:-)

It is indeed a good idea, Penny. Plenty of advice on there from keeping vulnerable animals indoors to what type of guard dog to use. Not exactly rocket science and far preferable to the yoiks Tallyho brigade.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 17 - 01:22 PM

We'd vote for foxes to be allowed to carry on hunting... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:39 PM

the idea i advanced was to have professional fox killers - not that everyone should have access to dum dum bullets.

presumably they would be trained not to kill people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:42 PM

Greg F Talking garbage as usual?
https://www.thoughtco.com/hunting-accident-rates-127877

For the rifle quoted:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?230138-WWII-rifles-effective-ranges

Penny S Keeping a chicken safe by good husbandry involves making a foxproof run as far as a fox is concerned. Sheep are generally kept outdoors. Putting up deer fencing to keep foxes out present 3 problems.
1)cost. Basic deer fence around 10£/m on flat ground with straight runs. Extra for deviations and inclinations.
2) Trying to guarantee the area fenced has no foxes inside.
3)Sheep farms tend to be large acreage poor quality moorland.
This is obviously a non starter on economic grounds and nothing to do with good husbandry.
The non farmers on this forum are obviously the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:51 PM

The non farmers on this forum are obviously the majority.

How do you know? What do you know about me or anyone else? Just about as much as we know about you I guess and from what you have posted you are obviously an expert in bovine based manure if nothing else. I may work in computers to keep the fox from the door (excuse the pun) but my family come from east European farming stock for generations and generations. I live in and with a sheep farming community. About time you stopped your assumptions and looked at some facts. Fox hunting does no good to anyone but the hunters.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:53 PM

I thought the tories were at heart all about nature tooth and claw / survival of the fittest..

Surely they if anyone should admire and cheer on foxes and all other large uncontrollable predators... ??? 🦊

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:00 PM

D the G We can all claim to be from farming stock for many generations.
So What? As I am pretty much retired I spend most of my time working on a sheep farm, so I do have a slight knowledge of
sheep farming. I would have thought it quite obvious from preceding posts that hunting is a very inefficient way of culling foxes. Most of the time it serves purely to build up their appetites by way of healthy exercise. Also Bristol University makes an issue about standards of husbandry but I find no mention of weather and its impact on outdoor lambing and this can have a major impact on lambing fatalities especially new borns.
One set of statistics:
Abortion/stillborn    40%
exposure/starvation    30%
Disease                20%
Congenital defects      5%
Predation Fox/Dog      5%

To an extent these statistics are meaningless because lambing averages and mortality rates vary markedly between upland and lowland flocks

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:01 PM

Why would a fox website detail anything to do with weather and its effect on lambing? You are not very good at research are you Iains? Although, if you would but care to check you will find links to mortality rates and reasons. Try looking beyond your preconceptions for a change.

Don't expect anyone to be impressed by your claims of sheep farming either bearing in mind your prior record of complete bollocks.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:05 PM

Ians, only a farking idiot - and apparently yourself as well- would employ a .303 on foxes.

Now, go back to "thoughtco.com" and compare the numbers of hunters in the U.S. and Canada with the numbers of hunters in the UK.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:15 PM

...anyway, anyone asked a sheep what they are most worried by...???

Foxes.. or farmers wearing wellies....????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:25 AM

Greg F really does not know what he is talking about. Problem with using rifles to kill foxes is that in the UK the restrictions on using firearms means that the opportunities to take a safe shot are rare:

1 - must be a certain distance from a road or any form of human habitation.

2 - cannot fire towards or across a road, public right of way or any building.

3 - there must be a confirmed hard stop (i.e. a hill or banking) behind the target.

4 - the target (a fox in this case) must present a clean kill shot to the marksman which basically means that the fox has to be side on to the marksman.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:05 AM

Greg F The only point I make about using a rifle for taking out vermin
is admirably summarized by Teribus. A 0.303 lee Enfield was quoted as an example purely because it is a weapon most people in the UK have a vague knowledge of.A little less time spent being an idiot and more spent on comprehension may help you.

Dthe G. I believe you introduced the data on mortality in lambs caused by other factors apart from fox predation. Your source made no mention of weather as being one of the leading causes of death.I merely pointed out this omission and gave statistics to illustrate the same. If a fox site wishes to explain all forms of lamb mortality and leaves out one of the leading causes, it is not a very accurate site is it? Perhaps you should do the research and pop out from under your toad stall when you have something significant to add. Your blustering fools no one.

Punkfolkrocker.
Should you ever have the good fortune to meet a sensible sheep it would probably answer: "Both"

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:19 AM

Perhaps you should do the research and pop out from under your toad stall when you have something significant to add. Your blustering fools no one.

You couldn't make it up could you? Someone accuses another of lacking research and blustering and does not even check his own post. What is a toad stall anyway? :-)

Thanks for the laugh. I'm sure it will not be the last.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:25 AM

A Toad stall offer a slightly higher standard of comfort than a toadstool. You should be grateful for small mercies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:27 AM

All my mercies are small. I am a Gnome you know...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:48 AM

I am gratified to hear it. What else can we discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 06:52 AM

Love Toad Stall! There could be a Toad Stall at one's nearest Car Boot on Sunday. Selling Toad Treats (slugs) and little Toad socks, shady hats and skin products for warts...

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:45 AM

Is a toad's stall another name for an amphibian urinal where toads' tools hang out?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:55 AM

Haaaaaaghhh! Very good!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:04 AM

What else can we discuss?

What else is there to discuss on a thread about fox hunting?

From the statistics you provide on lamb mortality -

Predation Fox/Dog      5%

So, there are lambs lost to dogs as well as foxes. If there is a move to reintroduce fox hunting to lower this, which it doesn't anyway, are we also going to see a move to hunt dogs as well? Maybe we could have people in red coats galloping around the countryside chasing dogs and killing them inhumanely?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:17 AM

Okay, let's move on from Toads...

There are things to be said for and against foxes.
They are excellent predators of rats, mice and rabbits. If there were no foxes at all, there would presumably be an explosion of these vermin, requiring trapping and chemical control. Not good for other wildlife (or us!).
But in urban settings, they can be a nuisance. There have been reports of their biting/attacking people when they get into a house (most likely from fear) They drag rubbish about (although, with wheelie bins, it's unlikely they can get inside to rummage)
And if there were ever an outbreak of rabies (God forbid) they would be an excellent vector.
I just love the look of them (Brought up on Beatrix Potter and her Mr Tod) I'm always sad to see one squashed at the side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:18 AM

As I used to live in rural North Wales, try the video at the bottom of
this page

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:25 AM

It is dual purpose. A means of earning a living while providing shelter.
Anyway to continue the argument:
My take on all this is that if a fox finds a target/s while foraging it will take it, voles, rabbits, chickens lambs etc. I do not think there is a dispute on this. The dispute is what threat this presents to livestock. If I understand correctly, from the little rushed research I have done on this, losses of lambs due to dog/fox predation are low. I think this needs a degree of qualification. I would argue the losses can vary regionally and year to year and probably has a related weather dependancy.A hard winter will diminish other food sources for the fox and weather has a debilitating effect on lambs, making them an easier target. A ewe will endeavour to protect a lamb, but as singles become twins or triplets the job becomes more challenging with less likelihood of protecting all. I think it is a field requiring a lot more study to determine if a fox presence is beneficial or detrimental to the ecosystem it inhabits In conclusion attacks are rarely seen and what may appear to be the aftermath of an attack could be merely scavenging of a carcase.
http://www.discoverwildlife.com/british-wildlife/do-we-really-need-control-foxes-uk

Now seconds out. Round 2

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:47 AM

Whatever our likes and dislikes of foxes, there is no excuse for making a sport of killing them - you might aw well turn criminals out to be hunted rather than locking them up (seem to remember a number of excellent classic films noir on that one!
We saw more foxes in London than we ever have in the countryside we now live in - found them a pleasure to behold rather than a nuisance or a danger
They used to nest alongside the main railway lines, especially those running past Wandsworth Prison - once they got used to the sound of the trains it was the quietest and safest place for them - totally isolated from the public
Most reports of them harming children turned out to be urban legends.
One of the weirdest experiences we ever had was in our quietish side-road in Wandsworth, West London
Pat and I were woken up one night by what we thought was a child crying
We looked out of the bedroom window to be met with the sight of a young fox rolling about in the road and emitting crying noises, watched by a somewhat bewildered cat sitting a yard or so away on the pavement.
After a few minutes, the scene became even more bizarre when a woman neighbour from a few doors away emerged and stood in the road in a long, flowing night-dress, as transfixed as we were - a Salvador Dali painting brought to life!
I'd put up with any inconvenience to witness something like that any day
I's stupid to blame foxes for behaving like foxes and attributing morality to that behaviour - I now Sen watches David Attenborough - does anybody else   
As much as it might upset me to see a cheetah bring down a beautiful deer that I am rooting for - that's what natural life is all about.
It's the evil that men do to the natural world that gets up my nose
I get extremely angry when I watch films of polar bears tip-toeing their way over ice that has been made paper thin by global warming, searching for food
That's what I call "not nice"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:28 AM

Greg F really does not know what he is talking about.

Gee, T-Bird- the conditions you quote pertain in the U.S as well, and are observed by any responsible hunter/marksman.

Apparently you're not a hunter and thus have no practical experience?

Greg F The only point I make about using a rifle for taking out vermin is admirably summarized by Teribus.

Yup, Iains, and his "summary" is nugatory.

A 0.303 lee Enfield was quoted as an example purely because it is a weapon most people in the UK have a vague knowledge of.

Oh really? - that rifle was taken out of service in 1957.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:47 AM

Most UK folks these days have far more knowledge of Uzis and AK-47s...

I want one of each to take out that vermin ginger and white cat that shits in our back yard,
and is getting closer and closer to killing all the blackbird chicks
in the nest in our back corner tall shrubby tree thing...... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:54 AM

Water pistol pfr. Better still, one of those large powerful squoosher things children play with. Very effective (voice of experience with Psycho-Cat and his evil mate Ronnie, who are terrorising the neighbourhood round our way)

Foxes can be heard screaming in a blood-curdling fashion during the mating season. The females particularly sound like murder is being committed. Good job we humans don't do that - could be a bit embarrassing!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:05 AM

My wife confiscated and hid my anglers bait catapult..

honestly I'd have only have used dried peas & lentils as pellet shot... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:07 AM

"Good job we humans don't do that"
??????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:28 AM

I mean scream like a banshee when seeking a mate, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:36 AM

My mrs is a south wales valleys girl, but more specifically from a desolate hillside location..

.. you should have heard her mating calls... 😱

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 11:32 AM

"I mean scream like a banshee when seeking a mate, Jim."
Sorry
Imagination running wild!!
You've obviously never tried making your way through Liverpool on a Saturday night after closing time!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 11:45 AM

Today I will mostly be youtubing songs with the word "Fox" in the title... 😎

gonna be a pretty interesting playlist...

oh yes.. Peter Sellars duetting with The Hollies should kick it off nicely...

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 17 - 12:34 PM

I am pleased that both Tory MPs in Croydon constituencies will vote in favour of keeping the current ban on fox hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 01:09 PM

Oh that's heartening news Bonzo! Hope the others follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 17 - 10:46 AM

"I think it is a field requiring a lot more study to determine if a fox presence is beneficial or detrimental to the ecosystem it inhabits"

It's not detrimental to the ecosystem it inhabits, but farmers knock an ecosystem out of equilibrium when they destroy fauna, flora and habitat. In that respect, they're trying to eradicate the indigenous forms to grow new ones.

All animals, including foxes are part of an intricate food web that is basically a flow of energy that starts when a plant captures photons from sunlight and goes up the food web to apex predators; the big beasties that eat the big herbivores. Apex predators create a trophic cascade which limits the abundance and alters the behaviours of prey... for instance deer in Yellowstone changed their browsing habits when wolves were reintroduced in order to look out for them and avoid ambushes. This meant saplings reached maturity, insects populated the growing trees nd the songbirds returned... you get the picture.

A fox is not a natural apex predator although we have forced it into that role as our apex predators are wolves and bears, but we killed the last of those off years ago. However, a fox is still vital to what remains of the ecosystem as they prey on animals that might otherwise get out of control such as small mammals and birds. They are vital to preserving what is left of our indigenous wildlife, as are all our wild animals. That some people think they are a pest is because they occasionally have the temerity to wander into our artificial landscape and opportunistically take prey. They're just doing what foxes do.

The problems the UK is having with deer could be mitigated if we introduced Lynx back to the landscape as Lynx are deer specialists and would control populations that are currently getting out of control and perhaps even make progress in eradicating introduced deer species that do damage to saplings and other native plants. You'd never see them either, they are shy and don't like humans (who can blame them?).

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 17 - 03:03 PM

Brilliant analysis, Stu. I have seen the Yellowstone wolf studies and was already aware of the points made. Trouble is here we have the polar opposite 'foxes are evil, tear lambs to bits and kill for fun' brigade and the 'foxes are lovely Basil Brush creatures' crew. Neither will ever see sense. Foxes are part of the nature. Nature is neither cruel nor kind. It is just nature.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 17 - 07:15 PM

if we introduced a race of carnivorous kangaroos, they would be able to jump on the foxes and bite the deer....and then with a mighty swing of their tail they could knock the huntsmen off their horses.

problem solved!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 17 - 07:39 PM

It wouldn't be half so bad if these "huntsmen," with their fine livery, silly noises, expensively-maintained horses and huge packs of uneconomical baying dogs just admitted what we all already know - that they are doing it for fun and that the very last thing they want is for foxes to be eradicated. A chap with a shotgun (the bloke we have round here is a true countryman called Carl, a great bloke who really understands what farmers need by way of protection for their livestock and crops) is a hundred times more economical. Carl is out just for foxes threatening the free-range chickens and for the very damaging herds of roe deer we have round here (the buggers go for my brassicas too). In fact, just get into your Landrover and drive round the country lanes a bit too fast and you'll kill many more foxes than the twats in red who blood the foreheads of groomed young boys on their first hunt. The most amusing thing I've seen for years was the hunt last year, galloping away manically on the far side of the first forty-acre field between me and Widemouth Bay, while a magnificent dog fox, a couple of hundred yards away from them in the same field, just below my garden, was ambling around insouciantly, glancing at the brainless idiots across the field with the nearest thing to a disdainful foxy look you could conjure in your mind's eye. I definitely sided with the fox!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:00 AM

"if we introduced a race of carnivorous kangaroos, "
Lovely picture Al
I still have fond memrories of the 'Crocodile Dundee' film with an armed 'kangaroos' facing out the brain-dead Aussie lampers.
Maybe a creative horror film maker can dream up a scene with a werewolf taking on a bunch of pink-uniformed chinless wonders....
I'd stand in a long queue to see that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:15 AM

At the Royal Norfolk Show, there are toffs a-plenty. There's even a special marquee reserved for the County Set. They wear cocktail dresses or morning suits, champers glass in hand, and have arrived in Land Rovers. They're obviously well-heeled, and I'm afraid it's these types, mostly, that go hunting.

I'm just a lower middle-class person from working class parents and have nothing at all in common with these people. I used to go drag-hunting on a hired pony, and enjoyed it (no killing involved, just following a scent set by the trailer) But the toffs would have nothing to do with such poor sport.

I do try to cultivate a 'No-Prejudice' attitude to all people, but these sorts are arrogant, with a huge sense of their superiority. Their love of hunting is principally a social thing. The Hunt Ball, the Stirrup Cup, it's a million miles away from 'controlling foxes for agricultural benefit'.

As Steve says, one could merely take out a rifle (a true countryman who knows his stuff) and dispatch foxes humanely. Instead the toffs send an oik round to stop the foxholes up, so the poor animal can't go to earth when fleeing the hounds. Sick and cruel.

Our local crematorium had a problem with rabbits eating the floral memorials. There were scores of the things munching on all the wreaths. So they sensibly got a local chap and paid him to sit with a rifle (silencer attached) all night and pick the rabbits off. They were killed cleanly, and the problem was solved. The same approach could be used with foxes. But of course,it's no fun and Tarquin and Felicity can't dress up and go galloping off on their blood hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 17 - 06:05 AM

i know my brother in law suddenly found he'd made quite a few enemies when he forbade the hunt from riding over his smallholding.

its one of those irreconcilables in English society.

a few years ago on mudcat i know i pissed off some Welshmen. itold the story of how i'd taken my roadie, who was an ex-miner to see Dave Guy the singer of Irish material (before we all did it) doing a gig for the Hunt.

needless to say Derbyshire miner/toffs in pinks/ strong drink taken wasn't the greatest recipe for a quiet afternoon listening to music.

THe WElsh guys said I was lying and that lots of miners ride to hounds. They could be right for all I know, never having ridden to hounds.

anyway there aren't lots of miners anywhere now.

now there is an endangered species!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 17 - 12:01 PM

Just been ear-holed by a somewhat angry wife who has been reading an article telling of how Victorian "pleasure parties killed 107,250 Kittiwakes over four months aalong a twelve mile stretch of the Flamborough Coast.
What is it with killing for pleasure' people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 17 - 01:13 PM

Jim To put things in some kind of perspective check how many animals are killed by cars and how many people are killed and injured by deer in a year.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/747906/england-motorway-roadkill-pig-wallaby-animals-killed-by-cars
( I would like to see a second set of figures to support the quoted statistics on deer-they seem very high)

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 17 - 01:43 PM

Jim To put things in some kind of perspective...how many people are killed and injured by deer...

You're joking surely.

You'd best stick to blasting away at small, furry creatures with Lee-Enfield .303's.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:00 PM

No idea Iains (I assume that has some meaning)
How many deer have been killed by cars and if it's less - should we declare war on them ?
This is a bit like Homer Simpson's dolphins!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:25 PM

According to the AA, there are on average 400 car occupants injured every year (figures released Jan 2017) in UK in collisions with deer, resulting in 20 human deaths. And 42,000 deer killed each year.

My sis in Scotland has attended at quite a few deer collisions when she was on call at night (Perthshire). Also, one event involving a Highland cow, whose horns shattered the windscreen and pierced the thorax of the unfortunate woman driver, who later died. Scottish red deer stags have huge antlers, and will attack people when in rut.

We see lots of muntjacs dead at the side of the road. And lots of fallow deer run across the road in herds, especially in autumn/winter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:33 PM

My uncle hit one with his transit van [probably the Quantocks..?]...

Plenty enough space in the back, and room in his freezer... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:05 PM

one event involving a Highland cow,

Ach- past time we started huntin' heeland coos w' horses & dogs then!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:22 PM

Greg F
Before babbling further perhaps you should check the Scottish and English legislation stipulating minimum calibre, minimum muzzle velocity, type of ammunition and weight of ammunition for culling the larger deer species.
If you try very hard you might be able to post something positive one day and amaze us all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:45 PM

There are an estimated 1.5 million deer now in UK. We need to cull about half of these in order to protect habitats and other wildlife populations. Deer have few natural enemies, and they're getting far too numerous for comfort.
I like venison, it has a nice strong flavour, but needs slow cooking to make it tender.
My husband can't understand why I don't immediately stop the car and scoop up the corpse of a muntjac from the roadside. In Africa, any 'meat' at all is instantly conveyed to the pot. Protein is precious there!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 17 - 06:44 PM

Before babbling further perhaps you should check the Scottish and English legislation stipulating minimum calibre, minimum muzzle velocity, type of ammunition and weight of ammunition for culling the larger deer species.

I have done. However:

Before presenting yourself as an enitirely igniorant prat you might want to recall that we are talking about foxes the averige size of which is about 8 kg.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:24 AM

GregF
Were I an idiot with an IQ of 0-25 I would not be capable of communicating by use of a computer. You however, being a moron (IQ 51-70), may be capable of limited communication and comprehension. This you amply demonstrate most times you post.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:55 PM

Care to speak to the point, Iains, or just more bloviation, BS & name calling?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 01:45 PM

the deer are full of ticks that burrow into you. leave the dead ones by the roadside - buy your venison from a butcher.

i love seeing deer. its always a special day when i see one. they are so beautiful.

people drive at stupid speeds through deer country.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 17 - 01:57 PM

The only marks on my insurance schedule are through "deer hits", 've hit three in the last five years. They are a real hazard in this part of Scotland....a fatality involving a young girl of 18 just last week, hit the deer and swerved out into the path of oncoming traffic.
They have regular crossing points, so if one knows the road you at least have a chance to cut down speed.

The council here have started cutting back the scrub and undergrowth on the roadsides so that at night you can see the eyes of the deer sparkling in your headlights before they run across.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:39 PM

I've had deer ticks bite me Al, probably from walking through long grass where the deer pass. They make a strange 'bullseye' red mark. Luckily I was given antibiotics immediately to prevent Lyme disease (prevalent here in Norfolk) which dealt with it.

The only venison I've cooked was in Scotland. (from a butcher)
I wouldn't touch 'roadkill'. But my husband sees it as a terrible waste of good protein.

We really will have to start culling deer, as they're becoming a huge problem.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:54 PM

Hit one in the Quantocks? Sounds bloody painful!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:15 PM

Apparently Volvo in Australia are developing a kangaroo detection and avoidance radar system. Why could this not work for deer?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:37 PM

you have to drive very slow in deer country - of course outsiders don't realise how slow. even then, its no guarantee.

i do love seeing deer.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:06 PM

I love seeing them too Al. One night we were coming home very late (for us!) from Bale (near Little Snoring), and were amazed at the sheer number of fallow deer zooming about all over the road. Literally dozens in the moonlight, darting in front of the car and even galloping alongside it, for the entire journey (about 10 miles).
We absolutely crawled home at a snail's pace, and luckily avoided hitting any of them. We were enchanted.

There were also lots of solitary muntjac around our last house.They have a strange 'bark', and don't seem to be as timid as fallow deer. One used to march past our patio doors in broad daylight (as did the huge orange fox I mentioned earlier) It's all go in Norfolk!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: gnu
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:45 PM

I haven't read but several of the last comments so I fell infinitely qualified to put in my two cents.

Is this about rich people dressing up in fancy uniforms and mounting mighty steeds and blowing a bugle and casting the hounds to run down a fox and watching the hounds rip it to shreds? Because, if it is, what the fuck is wrong these violent assholes? What is wrong with your politicians? Why hasn't this been outlawed YEARS AGO?

The girls I goes wit' knocks a fox on sight wit' a rifle when a fox gets anywhere near the farm. Bang. Done. Fox didn't even know it was comin'. No cruelty. Just switchin' off a chicken killer. No pomp or circumstance and no cruel 'game' for the amusement of some seriously fucked up individuals.

You guys gotta vote on that? It's 2017 FFS!

I return you now to your regularly scheduled discussion. Sorry for the interruption. Carry on. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:53 PM

Quite agree gnu, it's barbaric. It was outlawed here in 2004, but Theresa May is saying she'll put it to the vote again.
As you rightly say, a quick humane shot with a rifle is the best way. Foxes must be controlled somehow. But not ripped to shreds by hounds followed by idiots in fancy dress on horseback.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:12 AM

Deer Crossings? Hilarious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CI8UPHMzZm8

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:21 AM

Sorry don't find anything particularly amusing about that Iains and its relevence to to slaughtering these creatures for pleasure escapes me totally.
Culling is debatable area by area, killing for 'sport' is simply a sadistic example of how man has not learned to share this planet with other creatures.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:28 AM

I saw the other day they've perfected a special high-viz 'paint' which they put on the underbellies/flanks of New Forest ponies. It makes them very visible in the dark. (big problems with these free-range ponies on the roads in that area) If only one could persuade deer to have their bellies painted too! (and silly pedestrians in black jackets walking along our pavement-less Norfolk roads at night)

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:55 AM

glad you've warned me - i live in Dorset and no one told me about the pony painting.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:04 AM

Haha Al! You might have thought you were having a weird vision!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:15 AM

"Deer have few natural enemies, and they're getting far too numerous for comfort."

Reintroduce the Eurasian Lynx. Job done.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:16 AM

Beautiful creatures aren't they? Lovely tufty ears. Would they attack lambs etc though?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: gillymor
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:23 AM

Well, obviously you'd have to introduce Siberian Tigers to control the lynx population. Job done.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 08:22 AM

BEST WILDLIFE CARTOON EVER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 17 - 08:25 AM

Pterodactyls and T. Rex would sort everything out..

How far is the cloning project coming along...??? 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 17 - 09:22 AM

"Would they attack lambs etc though?"

Possibly, although Lynx are deer specialists. I have to say that given that toffs and farmers appear to want to kill everything in the countryside this will be a problem, but I'm optimistic that one day everyone will grow up and we can find a way to compensate for losses or avoid them altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 17 - 10:02 AM

If I was a sheep / chicken farmer I'd be inclined to consider occasional losses to fox's a 'nature tax'...

maybe even try to devise a methodical way of sacrificing weak and old livestock
to appease & distract predators from taking healthier animals...???

I'd be surprised if coexisting in this manner has not already at least been tried somewhere in the world...????

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 17 - 11:38 AM

I am now having visions of New Forest Ponies with glowing demonic designs on them wandering around at night frightening the local population. Like the Hound of the Baskervilles.

I like venison to but it is dead dear...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 02:14 PM

They trialled the idea on Dartmoor ponies about 2 years ago. It's a broad stripe along the animal's flank which glows in the dark. You can see photos of them if you Google it.

I think it's a good idea, as motorists come across the ponies suddenly in the pitch dark and there are several sad accidents each year. Now they're using it for New Forest ponies.

Venison is ridiculously expensive. I saw some in a butcher's here in Norfolk and it was dearer than fillet steak. And many people don't know how to cook it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:07 PM

Give me a nice piece of grass-fed beef or free-range pork shoulder on the bone any day. Read my lips: meat needs fat.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:02 PM

That's what larding needles are for, Steve.   ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:53 AM

"I'd be surprised if coexisting in this manner has not already at least been tried somewhere in the world...????"
It has - it's called "natural selection"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:56 AM

Haha Greg, looking at my rather fat...er...nether regions, I think someone must have used a larding needle on me!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 17 - 07:28 AM

Moses Schallenberger survived on his own at 16 years of age at Donner Lake largely on a diet of fox. Supposedly he found it delicious.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 17 - 10:34 AM

Steve, have you tried Ostrich or Kangeroo, not an ounce of fat but the meat is superb

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 10:46 AM

Kangaroo is OK but it can be a bit up and down...

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:14 AM

Erm, what's a larding needle then?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:30 AM

It's like a BIG darning needle, threaded with thin slithers of bacon fat which you stitch into a piece of meat to aid cooking. Every home should have one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:34 AM

"Ostrich or Kangeroo,"
Gorge beginning to rise steadily
As a lifelong meat eater I have occasionally toyed with vegetarianism but have failed miserably
Venison is forever a no-no, but the thought of adding more creatures to our death list fills me with horror.
Closest I ever got to joining the V set was on the opening night of BBC TV 4 when the first film they showed was 'The Animal Film' - a horrific peep into the dark world of animal-to-food slaughter - lasted about a week
More recently, the sight of a large lobster scuttling through a Lake Garda restaurant, having escaped the clutches of a cook who was intent on plunging it into a boiling pan of water nearly did the trick, but my hypocrisy got the better of me.
Too old to change now.
I must say I find the idea of amateur hunting to eat every bit as disgusting as fox hunting
Anybody who can afford a gun can afford a humanely slaughtered cut of meat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:47 AM

How do you about amateur fishermen Jim. Personally I have no problem with killing animals as long as they are for consumption ...... and yes before anyone asks I have been in an abattoir.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:19 PM

A longish tale – but true
When I was a maintenance electrician for a brewery I worked with a mate in a pub in the South London sticks of Chessington
Halfway through one afternoon, may mate disappeared and eventually returned with a freshly slaughtered free range, chicken he had bought in a neighbouring farm
Being partial, I asked him to get me one – he promised he would on our next visit.
I forgot about it until I was reminded sharply a few weeks later.
In those days, I was terrified of the dentist and suffered badly for my stupidity with abscesses – one day, my kindly, elderly boss told me of a beautiful woman dentist practising locally – he referred to her as "the tooth-puller with the big boobies"
He persuaded me to visit her and I eventually agreed on the condition that she would 'knock me out' rather than give me a 'local'
This entailed Pat driving from work to get me up when the treatment was over.
I informed my mate that I would not be available an told him why (foolishly forgetting he was a practical joker)
As arranged, Pat picked me up, as arranged and dropped me off home, where I staggered up our three storey winging flight of stairs to our top flat and fell asleep in a chair
Some time later I was woken by the doorbell and staggered down the stairs to find nobody there, but a cardboard box on the step; I brought it in and closed the door.
When I opened the box a live chicken flew out and for the next hour ran up and down the stairs until finally I got it back in the box.
When Pat got home she demanded to know why there was chicken shit on every stair up to our flat
The chicken was given to our kindly ground-floor neighbours who gave it free run of the garden for the rest of its days
Never looked a chicken in the face since
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:24 PM

Our village is right in the centre of many watery places, lakes, rivers and streams. So we get dozens of anglers. I can't accept a 'sport' where a cruel hook is cunningly inserted in an inedible fish's mouth and it's yanked ashore to die. If it's later returned to the water, it must be in agony. Fish do have a nervous system.

I don't object to eating various creatures if they are killed quickly and humanely, and not for some sadistic pleasure.
And I don't object to farmers controlling pests such as foxes etc if it's done instantly with no suffering.

If we could eat kangaroo, there would be a handy pouch one could stuff with sage-and-onion...

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:24 PM

"How do you about amateur fishermen Jim."
Always seemed a bit mindless to tear their insides out with a hook then throw them back to suffer
Apart from that.... no great objection if they're caught and killed instantly for food - though not something that turns me on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:35 PM

How do you define humane?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/what-is-halal-meat-the-big-questions-about-religious-slaughter-answered-9

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:54 PM

Thanks Raggy, never heard of one.

As for fishermen... one of the main objections they had to the reintroduction of beavers in Britain was the fact they would "eat all the fish".*





*I have no axe to grind with game or sea fishermen that eat their catch, indeed I've been game and sea fishing myself.. I love fly fishing (I was spectacularly unsuccessful, never took a single fish home). Coarse fishing I'm not is sure about, and sports fishing can damage the populations of large predatory fish such as sharks.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:28 AM

a lot of hunters use nets and ferrets.
in fact there's a club for them on Portland.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:32 AM

Nets, ferrets AND clubs? Seems a bit much.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:51 AM

AND Clubs. Does not seem to pose a problem for seal hunters.