BS: Where's the Outrage?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 01:06 PM

Now it's the same old infighting. Guess it's time to close the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 12:24 PM

"No. It is a sign that security forces are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people identified as a danger."
Ignoring the threat of possible terrorists has more to do with budget cutting - as the financial time points out quite clearly and specifically - cheeseparing based on budget rather than security
This is confirmed by the Government's readiness to sell arms to States implicated in financing extremism (which you choose to ignore)   
"Dave, it would really help if you could move on, or leave if you can't."
And it would be more helpful if those with no authority stopped attempting to pretend they had
Ake's disgusting accusation of ticket touting is little better than the Hillsborough affair where the fans "looting the bodies of the dead" was used to divert from the incompetence of the police.
It took seventeen years to sort out that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 12:07 PM

Dave, it would really help if you could move on, or leave if you can't.

It would really help you and ake, Keith. So excuse me if I don't take your advice :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 11:11 AM

Dave, it would really help if you could move on, or leave if you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 08:13 AM

In case anyone missed it, this was ake's comment on the Manchester tragedy.

Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM

Anyway, its a bit rich taking us anti terrorists to task for being disrespectful to the dead, when over 10000 "Mancunians" falsely applied for free tickets (reserved for people who attended the Grande concert) to give admission to a second Concert.


Now that's what I call disrespect!!

You can take the lad out of Manchester, but you can't take Manchester out of the lad...EH?

Nice ... EH?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

not all of these criminals were from Manchester, but I suppose a large number were.

Why on earth would you suppose that I wonder? Do you have any justification for it? Any figures to back it up?

Perhaps we can now treat this grave issue with the serious discussion appropriate to it.

This 'serious discussion' was started by Joe Offer about riots in the USA and how to react. It has been subsumed into a discussion about terror attacks in the UK by people who are still stinging from the closure of the Manchester and London threads because of comments like ake's.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:25 AM

Perhaps we can now treat this grave issue with the serious discussion appropriate to it.

Abuse and name calling elsewhere please.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:14 AM

I did not say that all people from Manchester were criminals.
There were over ten thousand false applications for tickets for the second show, not all of these criminals were from Manchester, but I suppose a large number were.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:55 AM

I'd rather be called THE Steve Shaw than THAT Steve Shaw, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:31 AM

Hey - I seem to have made you THE Steve again Steve :-) Maybe my spill chucker knows something that I don't.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:28 AM

Jim,
Then where are your comments on the fact that Mayfly has actually reduced security force numbers

Teribus and I both did.
I pointed out that the reductions were made because non-terrorist crime was falling and continues to fall.
She increased funding for anti-terror security.

We do know that at least two of the perpetrators have been know to the police and ignored - a sign of how serious the threat is being taken by them upstairs

No. It is a sign that security forces are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people identified as a danger.

23 000 that they know of.
The law as it stands prevents anything being done about them.

chose to create an "enemy within" atmosphere.

That atmosphere is created by the mass murder terror attacks launched by people who are indeed an enemy, and within Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:21 AM

You didn't Keith but ake did and it was that the Steve was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 02:51 AM

I am absolutely certain, that if this atrocity had been committed in Glasgow the attempted ticket fraud involving over ten thousand people would never have happened.

It started here.

Do keep up.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:17 AM

If you think I said that about akenaton because I lost an argument with him I feel bloody sorry for you Keith. I assume it means that you also think that all Mancunians are criminals and all weegies are saints. And that I lost that argument. Go and have a lie down, Keith. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:07 AM

"That is more then triple the entire Police Force of 2010!"
Then where are your comments on the fact that Mayfly has actually reduced security force numbers
We have no idea of what qualifies being a "suspect" - from the number of actual arrests and charges, it appears to be "suspicion by association".
We do know that at least two of the perpetrators have been know to the police and ignored - a sign of how serious the threat is being taken by them upstairs   
We also know that two of Britain's arms customers, Qatar and Saudi Arabia, have been directly linked to support for terrorism - Qatar has been ostracised by several Muslim States and Saudi was linked to 9/11 - and the trade goes on
Your arguments might just be more convincing if you didn't choose to ignore those facts but rather, chose to create an "enemy within" atmosphere.
But there you go - agenda-drivers will be agenda-drivers, and there is an election on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:57 AM

Your silly little litany reappears Dave.
You post it whenever you lose an argument.
There are no issues here of morality, language or interplanetary travel, and I do not call anyone criminals.

What are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 04:06 AM

Serious discussion is what is required.

And you agree that calling the people of Manchester criminals after they have suffered an outrageous attack is part of that serious discussion?

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:30 AM

Steve,
"heartless, brainless, useless prick."
"patronising git. So inhuman"

As ever when you lose an argument, you resort to abuse and vacuous name calling.
There could hardly be a more sombre and grave issue than this.
Serious discussion is what is required.
Are you incapable of that Steve?

(My step daughter and her young family from Chorlton stayed with us after the attack. She is sporting a new worker bee tattoo. She was working in Marks when the IRA bombed the place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:20 AM

You got the Manchester thread closed with your stupidity, ake. You are trying you best on this one but as it it Joe's thread I think you are on a hiding to nothing.

Basically, what you are saying is that the folk of Manchester are a bunch of criminals while those from Glasgow are not. Yes? You really are a serial gobshite.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:19 AM

Steve,
How DARE you put "admirable" in speech marks?

I put it in quotes because I was quoting my usage of the word.
I said those events were "admirable," but they did nothing to protect against further attacks.

Dave said, "They are known to do the victims, their families and anyone else affected lots of good. What do you dispute about that?"

I replied, "I do not dispute any of that. They are admirable for making victims feel better, but no good at all for saving future victims."

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:12 AM

And I'm absolutely certain that you are acting like a heartless, brainless, useless prick.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 02:51 AM

I am absolutely certain, that if this atrocity had been committed in Glasgow the attempted ticket fraud involving over ten thousand people would never have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 08:08 PM

"Wher's the brain death"???

Jeez Greg, talk about setting yourself up.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 06:20 PM

"Those events are "admirable" for the feel good they provide, but on the issue of security, which is what I have been discussing from the start, they do no good."

What a patronising git. So inhuman. So remote from the people of Manchester. So spuriously "objective." You pillock. How DARE you put "admirable" in speech marks? How DARE you patronise the people of Manchester from your leafy, complacent bit of Tory suburbia so remote from the realities of working people's lives? Is it just young people and their working-class mums and dads who fall prey to what you perceive as pop music "feel good?" I'll tell you what. Come up to Manchester with your appallingly condescending attitude and we'll take you and people like you to pieces. You haven't a bloody clue. Why don't you just crawl away and evaporate? Please??

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 03:31 PM

So then, I ask again, what would YOU do to make us safer Keith? Discuss the finer points of language?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 02:35 PM

Well, considering several of the posts on this thread, to ask "Wher's the brain death"???

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 02:05 PM

Steve,
Which shows that YOU fail to grasp the appropriate use of the English language.

No, it shows that Dave does.

Dave,
I suspect not. I also suspect that you are now trying to say that you did not mean something that you obviously said. Again.

No Dave. I said what I meant and stand by it.
Those events are "admirable" for the feel good they provide, but on the issue of security, which is what I have been discussing from the start, they do no good.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 12:29 PM

I suspect not. I also suspect that you are now trying to say that you did not mean something that you obviously said. Again.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 11:59 AM

Which shows that YOU fail to grasp the appropriate use of the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 11:35 AM

Dave,
You asked specifically What actual good will vigils and concerts do, admirable though they are?

I suspect only you failed to grasp why I thought them "admirable," and that I was referring to security when I stated they do no "actual good."

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 09:47 AM

Joe - Told you that Godwins law should have been invoked at the first mention of Nazis. It is not too late to close this before it gets completely bogged down by inane arguments :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 09:45 AM

You asked specifically What actual good will vigils and concerts do, admirable though they are? and I responded that they do lots of people good. You do not dispute that so what is the problem?

Everyone deserves to be made safer but not at any cost. WTF are you on about and what would YOU do to make them safer?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 09:21 AM

Dave,
They are known to do the victims, their families and anyone else affected lots of good. What do you dispute about that?

I do not dispute any of that. They are admirable for making victims feel better, but no good at all for saving future victims.

Steve,
What good has your attitude to the political issues that foment terrorism ever done, Keith?

None. No-one's attitudes can help.
What is needed are actual measures put in place to stop more of these atrocities.

No room for hate and division just for a little while

Rubbish. The extremists will not stop hating because of vigils and concerts. The concerts actually make them hate us more.

I call that a good step and I don't care if it's only a little one.

It is not even a small step. It does not reduce the danger one iota. It does nothing against those planning attacks.

I don't think that anyone who went to that concert thought that it would make them safer.

Right!. They deserve something that does.
What do you and Dave dispute about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 04:53 AM

What good has your attitude to the political issues that foment terrorism ever done, Keith? People like you aren't just part of the problem, they ARE the problem. The concert and posters on the other hand bring people together. No room for hate and division just for a little while. I call that a good step and I don't care if it's only a little one. As for false senses of security, well I don't think that anyone who went to that concert thought that it would make them safer. Aim your cynicism in a different direction, both of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 03:21 AM

False sense of security?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

What actual good will vigils and concerts do, admirable though they are?

They are known to do the victims, their families and anyone else affected lots of good. What do you dispute about that?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

I think I know which approach will do more good

What actual good will vigils and concerts do, admirable though they are?
The people busy plotting the next atrocity will laugh at the threat of being loved.

There is much talk of not letting the terrorists win, while doing nothing to actually stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 17 - 10:05 PM

We have met the enemy and it is us. As for them, they too have met the same enemy and us. Blowback is a sanitized word but true in meaning. The conflict is not just a religious confrontation, it is also an economic war by fools for fuel in a region I call Ethniclashistan.

Regime change in Iran was the ultimate election rigging. Arming both sides of a conflict that killed 1.5 million kids.(an entire generation) is also our idea to lead from behind. etc

While Obama tried to extricate our troops from the region, Donald is reversing all that. He has reversed our Paris accord and federal alternate fuel strategies.   The blowback from this will be the ultimate blowback - Climate change and extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 17 - 08:18 PM

Just come back from my mum and dad's. I was hobnobbing around Bury quite a lot and I saw lots of "One love Manchester" with hearts posters everywhere, stuck on walls and tied to railings. The local Beeb news was full of the Ariana Grande concert at Old Trafford. I thought the reaction of local people was wonderful and that the concert was a smashing and really appropriate idea (though I won't be buying any of the artists' CDs!). I saw Theresa May responding to the horrid recent events with unimaginative trottings-out of the outrage and aggressive fighting talk she thought people wanted to hear. I saw the people of Bury and Manchester responding with a tough, positive spirit, with love and with inclusivity, not a scrap of the outrage that was surely in their souls on display. I think I know which approach will do more good. Outrage is rather easily confected.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jun 17 - 02:47 PM

Joe. To play Devil's Advocate, do not many Muslims in the Middle East
have a reason to be outraged by the aftermath of the Arab Spring? Not only is there a religious battle by Saudi and Iranian proxies, but the western Alliance is funding training and arming certain groups that add further instability and casualties in a bloody war in several countries in order to prolong the mayhem.
We in the western world seem to be doing nothing other than handwringing, bleat about human rights when uncontrolled immigration occurs from these same countries, and act astounded when terrorist activities occur in Europe. Meanwhile the western military industrial complex girds their loins for the ensuing even juicier contracts for yet more weapons.
    The unfortunate term used for the atrocities in Europe is blowback,yet another innocuous term like collateral damage. There is no way such behaviour can be condoned but it can be understood what may cause it.
As we collectively elected the governments that initially created this hell on earth, then they act in our name-distasteful though this may seem.
    We do not like terrorists among us
    We do not like the ever increasing death toll especially in the Middle East
    We do like to wring our hands.
    We do not like to protest.(unlike ban the bomb campaigns and anti Vietnam protests of the past)
    We collectively are responsible.
As I said on another post and promptly got shot down in flames:-
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
    We are doing nothing!

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 17 - 06:21 AM

Jim,
The claims of an increase in support for terrorism is deliberate utter alarmist nonsense

I gave the official figures and made nothing up.
What do you dispute?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/security-mi5-23000-subjects-interest-counter-terrorism-manchester-abedi-police-a7758671.html


It is said to require a team of 30 to maintain full time surveillance on one, so 23 000 would need 690 000!

That is more then triple the entire Police Force of 2010!

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 17 - 05:33 AM

"than can ever possibly be monitored."
Not for the want of trying, of course.

HAS THERESA MAY REALLY CUT THE UK'S POLICE NUMBERS?
Q&A
HELEN WARRELL
British prime minister Theresa May has come under fire for cutting police numbers while she was home secretary, with her critics contending in the wake of three recent attacks that the UK's ability to fight terrorism has been compromised by a lack of resources.
Did police numbers fall while Theresa May was home secretary?
Yes. The number of police officers in England and Wales fell by 18,991, or 13 per cent, between September 2010 and September 2016, according to the home office.
Separate statistics show the number of authorised firearms officers fell by 19 per cent to 5,639 between March 2010 and March 2016.
Karen Bradley, culture secretary and a former home office minister, explained yesterday: "We've seen reductions in police officers across the board, we had to take difficult decisions in 2010 when we came into office when, as you remember, there was no money."
Did they decide to cut police numbers because crime fell?
No, the cuts were made as part of the government's austerity programme.
Overall police budgets were cut by more than 20 per cent between 2010 and 2015. From 2015 onwards, the policing budget has been protected in real terms. During the Conservatives' time in office, funding for counter-terror policing has been ringfenced and increased in line with inflation.
But the fall in crime to a 30-year low on May's watch did make the cuts easier to justify.
More recently, this has become harder to argue. An increase in knife and gun violence,particularly in London, has raised concerns that the overall drop in crime may not continue.
Also, the Office for National Statistics has only just started to include fraud and cyber crime in its headline crime numbers. The first set of crime statistics to reflect this change, published in January, brought the estimated total number of crimes to 11.8 million, up from 6.6 million the year before.
This could reflect the fact that while it appeared to be falling, crime has instead been shifting into the virtual world.
Would recruiting more officers help to dea I with the terror threat?
Some police chiefs think so. Cressida Dick, head of the Metropolitan Police, said: "I think it's appropriate for us all to look at the amount of resource the police have, both the counter-terrorism police but also our neighbourhood officers."
Dick's focus on the importance of local policing reflects the concerns of other police chiefs that forces are losing access to intelligence about potentially dangerous individuals within their communities.
Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, has seized on such criticisms, and has even called on the prime minister to resign because of her role in cutting police numbers while home secretary. May hit back by denying that reduced resources were weakening the police response to terror.
"We have protected counter-terrorism policing budgets, we have also provided funding for an increase in the number of armed police offiqers and, since 2015, we have protected overall police budgets," she said. She added that the response to terrorism was not just about police numbers but the powers that police have to deal with terror suspects, which she said had "increased".
The Financial• Times Limited 2017

The claims of an increase in support for terrorism is deliberate utter alarmist nonsense aimed at generating suspicion towards an overwhelmingly law-abiding and passive community.
Nobody has the faintest idea how many of them are sympathetic towards terrorism and we never will have until a properly conducted investigation devoid of racist agendas is carried out
You are at it again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM

Jack,
And in this case one of them actually WARNED about the guy - and was ignored (presumably because the killer was an MI5 asset):

No.
The warning was that he had extremists views and sympathised with the militants.
That is not a crime so no action could be taken except to add him to the list of 23000 others also reported to have such views.

The other two killers were not even on that list!

The sad fact is that there are far more terrorist sympathisers than can ever possibly be monitored.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:57 PM

It really isn't very difficult to find out more about May (and her hubby). I've passed on quite a lot of links via FB and if you track back to where I got them you will find out a lot more. She is every bit as corrupt as the worst of Trump's gang.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:16 PM

Yup, Greg, I talked about "terrorist attacks" in the first post, not "terror attacks." Is that your point?

Don't know that I'm being all that defensive, Steve. I merely dared to question your failure to provide evidence to back up your assertions. Do I take it, then, that you would prefer to be led by Nigel Farage?

You're right that I don't know a whole lot about Theresa May. Please provide enlightenment, not merely assertions.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:03 PM

You're being very defensive, Joe, despite my being quite gentle with you. You really don't understand how incompetent and ideologically-led Theresa May really is. Do delve a little deeper. You'll be amazed at what you find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 07:48 PM

In his usual fashion, Greg F sez: The OP said NOTHING about "terror attacks".

Yup, Joe, in my usual fashion, I state fact. The Professor's spin notwithstanding.

Do you have some sort of problem with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 07:35 PM

Steve Shaw says: With respect, Joe, you don't appear to have a particularly sound grasp of UK politics.

I hate it when people say I'm ignorant, and then give no specific information to back it up. What am I supposed to say in response? Oh, yes, Steve, I'm ignorant, and I grovel at your feet. Don't know why, but I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. I do believe I'm safe in thinking that compared to Nigel Farage (or to Donald Trump), Theresa May seems to be quite reasonable.

Keith A. says: The OP refers to outrage at terror attacks. In his usual fashion, Greg F sez: The OP said NOTHING about "terror attacks".

But I'm the one who wrote the OP. My first point was my nephew's complaint that liberals were not appropriately outraged at violence that took place at anti-Trump demonstrations. I compared this to complaints that Muslims were not appropriately outraged by terrorist attacks (so Keith is correct, although terrorist attacks were not my main point). And the main thing I'm trying to point out is that it is unfair to try to gauge and judge the amount of outrage (or lack thereof) that another person or group feels and expresses in reaction to an event.

To say that another party supports an atrocity because that other has not expressed appropriate outrage, is a lie.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 07:01 PM

If you're a member of that minority you're expected to feel responsible for anything any member of the same minority does, no matter whether you do it or not, and you're expected to denounce "your people" for doing it.

And in this case one of them actually WARNED about the guy - and was ignored (presumably because the killer was an MI5 asset):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40159360/they-didn-t-get-back-to-me

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:05 PM

With respect, Joe, you don't appear to have a particularly sound grasp of UK politics. I give you credit for not pontificating at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Outrage?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 03:58 PM

Amazing animals "liberals", they will find a way of excusing any barbarity perpetrated by any minority, yet despise and denigrate a majority over semantics.