BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 06:59 PM

Many times when it comes to elections there's been precious little to choose. "Whoever you vote for, the government always gets in", "If voting made any real difference, they'd abolish it".

This time it's different. Here's a link to what's been called "possibly the best party political broadcast ever", and I think it is - please have a look at it here

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 07:19 PM

Thank you Kevin. I hadn't seen that. You know I don't need converting, but, had I needed it, it would have done the job. 😢

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 01:13 AM

yes i'd seen it before. jezza as always will get my vote.
however, i shouldn't build your hopes up.

its been a creditable seven weeks. however its unlikely to outweigh two years his fans have spent cussing out the Blairite faction of his own party.

Lets just hope the sky doesn't fall in.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:08 AM

The priority is to keep out the Tories. That means me voting LibDem holding my nose. Even if May wins by a small majority she's doomed. Let's kick the Tories out!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

Thank goodness in my constituency Cor-bin can get back into his bin!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:14 AM

Well I see it differently Big Al. But now's not the time for that stuff.

All it takes for the Tories to be defeated is for all the people who are against them to get out and vote. There are more of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:24 AM

I see you are an avid Scum reader Bonzo

Today's headlines

Scroll down to see where Bonzo gets his sparkling wit from...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:20 AM

I wonder what happened to the Doctor's friend Mr Hunt. Do you think he will magically reappear now?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:26 AM

no sadly it means winning 42 marginal seats - getting people who sometimes vote tory to vote labour.

still - lets hope to god i'm totally wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

Even if May wins by a small majority she's doomed

Perhaps. Which will really cheese off all those who voted for her as the best to negotiate Brexit. I am sure if that happens the 1922 committee will sympathise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 08:26 AM

Leave it to the Brits to be more rational than Americans who go right when events of terror attempts emerge, The Brits go to the left.
May may be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 08:39 AM

One can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:18 PM

Well bugger me sideways with a bent banana. This is looking good!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:19 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:25 PM

yes indeed. take back what i said. i was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 05:47 PM

You are stuffed, Theresa. Good riddance!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:27 PM

Hmmm, not sure Steve.

I reckon we'll have to wait until 4am at least before we can be gladdened...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:33 PM

I agree early chicken counting is not advised. But Steve's first comment - looking good - I go along with. I reserve the right to revise my mood until, oh, 4am.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:35 PM

Unless she wins by at least 60 she's well stuffed. The hawks are already out with the long knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:40 PM

....are we there yet..????


I want to play I spy...

are we there yet...???

I feel sick....

are we there yet......?????

mum she's kicking me..


Are we there yet....???????

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:55 PM

I sincerely hope you're right DMcG and Steve.

Time will tell...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 09:02 PM

We're having a bloody brilliant night. If I top my glass up yet again I'll get cirrhosis. I'll give it another hour. The dishwasher's emptied, the diary's written, I've had a shower. All I have to do is to fall into bed happy. Kettle's on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 09:23 PM

on 2nd bottle of rum, hot chilli crisps from the polish shop...

might even start fist punching the air
which is very over exuberant and out of characer for me..


then i'll wake up in the morning and tories have clung on again...




... or will they...???

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 10:47 PM

Theresa May looked quite upset during her acceptance speech, and it sounded to me that she said the Conservative would seek stability etc etc. Not her. Interesting phrasing, if I am right.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 10:56 PM

im not a vindictive person... but....

Oh please... amber rudd.. smug robotory that she is.. please..

I dont care who beats her... but labour would be preferable..

right.. im off to put the recycle bins out...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 11:18 PM

I'm finding that I can't go to bed. I've just had a cup of tea and scoffed a random large sprig of leftover broccoli. Have I got cheese I ask myself...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 11:31 PM

I'm going to bed now. I want to spend the whole of tomorrow watching Tories on the telly looking miserable and squirming. I want to hear Teribus telling us what a disaster this has been. Oh God, I may be as happy as Larry and drinking something fizzy tomorrow evening...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 11:36 PM

Sleep tight! Tomorrow is another day (or part of this one)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 11:43 PM

Toby Young is now on the panel...

this is compulsive cunt watch telly...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 12:08 AM

Another source of fun is watching the PLP anyone-but-Corbyn Crew frantically backpedalling

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:02 AM

My ward just announced: Conservatives won by 31 votes. Let no one say their vote doesn't matter!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 02:58 AM

North Fife there has been three recounts. Two of the counts gave Lib dems the seat whilst two gave it to the SNP. Finally gone to SNP by I think it is two votes. Lib Dem candidate could be taking further action.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 04:29 AM

mini maggie has fucked up big time...!!! 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 04:43 AM

This is a huge justification for Corbyn who has gone from nowhere to virtually parity in such a short time despite the vile MSM bias. It is a slap in the face to Murdoch, to the bitterites and snakes, and the destruction of May-not. UKRAP was wiped out too. Bonzo should quake in his boots - a pig with a blue rosette could get elected in Croydon South, but Gavin Barwell is writing his sequel "How to lose a marginal seat" in Croydon Central and Labour held Croydon North with increased majority.

The danger is that this may open the door for Baron dePfeffel Johnson, a far more dangerous person than May-not. He is a very clever schemer and dissembler, indeed manipulator and liar. And his fake buffoon persona plays well on TV to the stupid.

On the other hand, if there is a single English politician with the standing of repeatedly being on the right side of history who might be able to persuade Sinn Fein to take their seats, it is JC.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:17 AM

I think that by Christmas we'll have had another election and that Ruth Davidson will be the Tory leader. The job is a poisoned chalice now. The DUP, whom God shouldn't preserve, will prop up the Tories for a while but they are nowhere near in line with the Tories on brexit. I have a feeling that we may be in for a coalition or three in years to come. And here was me thinking that it would be Tories for decades. Has anyone ever screwed up bigger-time than Theresa May? Well, apart from Camoron calling that referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:18 AM

punkfolkrocker

HASTINGS AND RYE
Amber Rudd Conservatives    25,668
Peter Chowney Labour             25,322
Nicholas Perry Lib Dems.       1,885
Michael Phillips UKIP             1,479
Nicholas Wilson Ind                   412

Did 25,688 see the video of her at the hustings and say " that's my girl."
https://youtu.be/TEcMW6RmC_w 
0:13 writing a note to the chair
0:45 hiding the note

There are claims the Labour candidate was off topic but I'm not sure what the guidelines were.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:35 AM

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 04:43 AM

This is a huge justification for Corbyn who has gone from nowhere to virtually parity in such a short time

"Gone from nowhere" How so? The previous make-up of the commons included 330 Tory & 229 labour MPs. That is hardly coming from nowhere, although the gap has been reduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

Stu its good to hope, except for Trump when he says I hope you want your job, Ill tell you what you're gonna do. I hope you understand.

May oh may poor Theresa.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:54 AM

"Gone from nowhere" How so?

Did you not see the predictions when the elections were called Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:01 AM

well it felt like nowhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:21 AM

I saw predictions.
I gave them the same credence that I give to opinion polls. i.e. not a lot.
I don't believe anyone was predicting that Labour would lose all its seats, or even enough that the number would be reduced sufficiently that they would be 'nowhere'.
Saying he has 'come from nowhere' seems just an attempt to make where he is now (with his party in second place) look more spectacular.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:32 AM

I don't believe anyone was predicting that Labour would lose all its seats, or even enough that the number would be reduced sufficiently that they would be 'nowhere'.

You haven't looked very far then.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:46 AM

I found the
BBC pages good for seeing results
and the map links to neighbouring constituencies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:57 AM

You haven't looked very far then.
If it's that easy then I'm sure you can give me an example, or direct me to one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:26 AM

Sour grapes, Nigel. Your favoured leader screwed up and showed that she has very poor judgement. Corbyn steered a great campaign in the face of mass demonisation and got the best Labour vote for 20 years. Labour was supposed to be a basket case six weeks ago. That's your context.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:44 AM

Terminology is everything.
If Murray wins a tennis match in straight sets it may be a good win.
If he wins 3-2 after being two sets down it's a comeback.
If he wins in straight sets after some pundit has predicted he'll be two sets down (which doesn't actually happen) it is back to being a good win. It's not a 'comeback' despite the prediction.

Going from second place six weeks ago to second place now does not seem to be a fantastic achievement.
Those who considered Labour a 'basket case' six weeks ago may not have revised that opinion since. The party has still failed to 'win' the election, or even get the greater number of seats.

It's unusual (but not unexpected) to hear the losers proclaim how well they have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:01 AM

Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:11 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:26 AM
Corbyn . . . got the best Labour vote for 20 years.
Labour percentage vote this year (2017) 40.2% (1997)43.2% (2001)40.7%
2001 to 2017 is not 20 years.
Also number of seats won is less than in 2001 or 2005.

Number of votes may have gone up, but not as a percentage of the total votes cast. (compared with 1997 & 2001)

Care to try again?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:21 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:01 AM

Hilarious.

Clearly a studied response. When you can't find facts to support your case, just try to ridicule the opposition. You'd make a good politician, or at least a typical one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:37 AM

Well, your woman has just spent the last seven weeks ridiculing the opposition. So I suppose you know what you're talking about.

I'm happy to be corrected on the Labour share of the vote. It's the best for 16 years, not 20. I was regurgitating what a Beeb pundit was saying without checking for myself. Maybe he was referring to total votes, I dunno. I wasn't thinking of total seats.

As for my response, I suggest you wait for a week or two before you decide who really lost this election. Measure it by whatever parameter you like - enforced sacking of leader, egg on face, humiliation factor, the obligation to make dodgy deals with a bunch of highly-unpleasant sectarian bigots, shattered hubris and complacency, whatevvah. And none of it remotely necessary. Jezza may not be forming the next government, but he's changed politics in this country forever. He did it by being honest and refraining from negative campaigning. Watch and learn, Tories, Murdoch and Dacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:54 AM

Similarly I would suggest you wait a few weeks before proclaiming that Jeremy has changed UK politics forever.
I seriously doubt that he will be that effective in whatever it is he tries to do.

As for Theresa may, she is not "my woman". I support the Conservative Party, but that does not mean that I automatically accept that the current leader is best suited to the job. I would have much preferred to see a reasonable contest for the position.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:06 AM

Shaw, Corbyn bribed his way to obtain the support he needed to get what he achieved and obtained his 40.2% of the votes cast and came second - Blair won his election with 40.7%. Tell me again how far off getting an overall majority Labour are at the moment?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:07 AM

You'll get one, though whether it'll be reasonable is a moot point. The knives are out. Yes, politics has changed forever. The establishment is under the hatchet. Anyone thinking that the next five years will be Tory business-as-usual is in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:10 AM

Well I was one of the half-million new members who signed up having been enthused by Jeremy, and nobody bribed any of us. You're making things up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:18 AM

Well I was one of the half-million new members who signed up having been enthused by Jeremy, and nobody bribed any of us.

No, but what ever attracted all those new members did not attract voters, as witness the recent by-elections and local elections which were disastrous for Labour. Their vote fell heavily while the Tories' increased sharply.

The change in fortune is very recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:22 AM

And to what do you ascribe that? The nice Daily Mail?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:28 AM

No.
I ascribe it to a disastrous Tory campaign and manifesto, a good performance by Corbyn, and unaffordable bribes that would mostly benefit the well off.
Students are mostly middle class, and only those who became wealthy ever had to pay their fees anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 12:29 PM

Wealthy? You start repaying fees when you earn above £21000. The AVERAGE full-time wage in this country is £27600. What planet are you on, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:13 PM

So - Corbyn "bribed the electorate - from, who else - the usual suspects
Not only is this suggestion totally expected from teh lickspittle right but is shows utter contempt of the electorate
Corbyn became Labour leader by offering an alternative to New Labour's Tory Party lookalike
Responsible commentators throughout the day have put down the Labour vote to support from young people.   
Maggie the Mayfly (the insect with the shortest lifespan of any creature - hopefully repeated in her political career) has truely shot herself in the foot with her contempt for British people in first trying to reduce essential pension safeguards, then believing they would fall for her screeching u-turn - what a wonderful result
Just wait till we get Blustering Boris as P.M.
The Tory reliance on support from the D.U.P - a bunch of sectarian bigots up to their eyes in their own internal scandals will be a joy to behold
Their leadership will now have to sell a Brexit which is set fair to undermining the Northern Ireland economy and the possibility of a hard border to their own membership in order to give Maggie May the support she needs
Wonder if it will be possible to sell tickets to this Westminster farce!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM

"Students are mostly middle class, and only those who became wealthy ever had to pay their fees anyway."

You don't what you're talking about. Ridiculous and ignorant comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:27 PM

Heck, so all poor people should be excluded from education because they or their families might not be able to pay?

Here's the rub. I know students in HE that leave uni with a phenomenal amount of debt, and I mean scary. These kids might have done an undergrad, masters and a doctorate and end up with such a scary amount owning I have no idea how they sleep at night. They can't afford homes, they have to travel to work and the pay in academia is not as good as many assume and by the time you've got to institutions such as museums it's laughable.

We should not have to pay for our children's education, end of. Most of you old white men had free education anyway, so show some sympathy and respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:30 PM

hI

There will be huge wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Conservative
Party to try to find out what went wrong.

Well I am not a politician
but I can give them a few leads.

1. They should find someone who knows how to create a workable Manifesto. This one was a total joke.

2. They were so complacent and certain that they would just walk in that they did not prepare properly.

3, Know your customers. They did not canvas well and ignored finding out what people really wanted.

It was obvious to me that there were problems behind the scenes. Where were all their "big guns" ?? eg Johnson, Hunt ,Amber Rudd etc etc ???
May looked flummoxed and lost with no-one to help her.

I live in Cheshire where there were 5 vulnerable constituencies which included mine. We saw nothing of any Tory campaigners. .a couple of useless leaflets. All 5 fell to the Labour Party.

Corbyn and his team did a great job of telling people who they were, what they were offering and identifying potential voters.

We know the rest.

The tories are in panic.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:35 PM

What went wrong?
The tories said if you need a few weeks care when you die, we'll nick your house off you.
This did not go down well. Even with the old gits who vote for them.
Basically they did everything short of instructing their candidates to piss through each letterbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 04:19 PM

See that none of you have ever actually looked into the farce of student loans for tuition fees beyond a casual glance.

Interest starts accumulating the day you take out the loan.

You only start to repay the loan IF your yearly earnings exceed £21,000 and the amount presented as a percentage of your earnings is stipulated. If on graduation you disappear overseas to work you cannot be compelled to repay a penny.

As you progress in your career and your salary rises your contributions go up in regulated steps. If you, for whatever reason become unemployed your payments are stopped.

After 30 years the debt is written off. Someone starting out at £21,000 who stays in work and through promotions receives increases in salary ultimately earning £85,000 will only pay off about a half of his/her Student loan.

Big Al - "The tories said if you need a few weeks care when you die, we'll nick your house off you."

The present system of payment has a threshold limit of £23,500. If you require residential care you have to sell off your assets including the home you own until you have dropped to £23,500 - then and only then will the state step in to help. The Tories proposed the opposite - a four-fold increase in the threshold sum that an individual could keep and assets only have to be realised AFTER you are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 05:30 PM

Whose dups are these, whose dups are these? They are old John Potts', you can tell 'em by the spots, and I found them in the vicarage garden

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 05:32 PM

Keith says:

"Students are mostly middle class..."

What does this even mean? If you mean their background, every single university has a widening access programme, HEFCE insists they do and it is funded. Students from low income families have access to a range of bursaries. Lack of family money should not be, and is not, a barrier to university entry. Or do you mean their outcomes? People with degrees have access to jobs which you might describe as middle class, but this is really a tautology. They have access to jobs which require learning.

Or is it a deep-rooted anti-intellectualism amongst some communities? We do see these attitudes, parents who are fearful that their children might achieve more than they have. I would not call it a class thing though, but there is a glorification of ignorance, promoted by some of the tabloid press, that you just don't get in mainland Europe. And you most definitely don't get it in Asia or in asian communities in other countries.

Whilst we say that most students are middle class, we are writing off a fair fraction of our potential. Educating our young people is of value to the whole country, not just to those receiving the education.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:10 PM

David, expecting The Professor to have even a remote connection to reality has been proven over and over again to be a lost cause.

Save yourself the aggravation, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:27 PM

My dad used to call it the cult of the philistine. Thanks for the great post, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:08 PM

"I've said it before and I'll say it again- Democracy just doesn't work!"

Kent Brockman from The Simpsons

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:12 PM

"See that none of you have ever actually looked into the farce of student loans for tuition fees beyond a casual glance."
And you, in contrast, have gone into it in depth, no doubt
The Tories proposed the opposite - a four-fold increase in the threshold sum that an individual could keep and assets only have to be realised AFTER you are dead.
There are actually two minimums at which you have to start paying back a student loan
£17,775 for Plan 1
£21,000 for Plan 2
The option yuo opt for decides your monthly payments
Far from the "bleeding heart" image of the government's attitued to student oans, this is THEIR ACTUAL POSITION AND THE ENSUING HARDSHIP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:45 PM

I'd been insisting to everyone I met who was predicting disaster that the polls predicting a Tory landslide weren't allowing for the possibility of a surge of young and other non-voters, enthused by Jeremy's storming campaign; and by people who, for virtually the first time had been given a chance to get a picture of the real person who'd been chosen to lead the Labour Party by the overwhelming majority of the members. Instead of the ridiculous and malevolent caricature painted by the gutter press (with the help of a resentful chorus of Westminster bubble politicos).

Happy indeed to have my optimism confirmed. It's fun seeing the antics of some of the sneerers and snipers as they try to retrofit their analyses.

And Nigel, if you didn't see the consensus of predictions that Corbyn's leadership of Labour was bound to cause a landslide defeat, right across the media, you can't have been paying that media much attention, over the last few weeks or indeed to last couple of years. Not that I'd criticise that, because most of what you missed has been rubbish, music is a far better way to spend time. Here is a link to a Guardian story from the start of the campaign, just as a very mild example. Conservatives on course for landslide

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:34 AM

"There are actually two minimums at which you have to start paying back a student loan
£17,775 for Plan 1
£21,000 for Plan 2
The option yuo opt for decides your monthly payments"

From "Jom the infallible"

Ehmmm no Jom, once again you have read something and failed to understand it:

£17,775 for Plan 1 only applies to "English and Welsh students who started BEFORE 1 September 2012, all Scottish and Northern Irish students. You start repaying when you earn over £17,775. This amount changes on 6 April every year." Source - https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan

£21,000 for Plan 2 applies to "English and Welsh students who started ON OR AFTER 1 September 2012. You start repaying when you earn over £21,000." Source - https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan

Tell me what the date is Jom and then tell me which Plan is now in operation - No OPT about it.

On Plan 1 or Plan 2 if you are earning between £32,000 and £35,000 per year your monthly repayments amount to the equivalent of a good meal for two in a restaurant.

After 30 years the debt is written off.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 04:35 AM

"From "Jom the infallible"
Havin een a strong supporter of this crowd of cowboys from day one, you are hardly in the position to tl down to people - try to remember your place in the pecking order, there's a good chap!
You have the situation as given by the government - they might be wrong of course, you tend to adopt that attitude to information that doesn't fit.
Your account was a simplistic distortion of the actual situation as it applies to those unable to afford to pay for their education
The fact that you choose to ignore the result of the policy, as described in my link, is confirmation that you are fully aware of the situation - blustering your way past facts seems to be your way of doing things - your three "Joms" confirms it even further.
More facts to ignore
Education in britain most expensive in the world
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/12013303/University-students-in-England-pay-the-highest-tuition-fees-in-the-world.html
NO LONGER A PLACE FOR THE POOR
"good meal for two in a restaurant."
REPAYMENT LOAN CALCULATOR
When will you "Let them eat cake" gang get your head around the fact that there are millions in Britain who cannot afford to eat out, but many of those struggle to FEED THEIR FAMILIES on a day-to-day basis.
It really is time your lot got a grip of what life is like for many under Toryism
"Good meal for two" - you couldn't make it up!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:20 AM

Negotiations between the UP and the Tories have hit their first speed-bump - over Same-Sex marriage
You couldn't make that one up either!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:41 AM

I think the problem is that the voting public just do not like to be told the truth.

Mr Corbyn's much vaunted manifesto was simply a huge "feel good wish list" which he never expected to have to put into practice.

As someone who is in the trap of self funding personal care for a family member, I can assure all here that Teribus is 100% correct in his evaluation of the system.
Mrs May's proposed scheme is far superior to the one in operation here in Scotland which is nominally "free"
ONLY IF YOUR COMBINED ASSETS including your house, amount to under £20000. This system is a charter for people who are financially irresponsible.....or even those who avoid self financing by transferring their houses and funds to others.....as bad as tax avoidance?

Mrs May's biggest mistake was in talking about the subject at all, the public especially the young uninformed public do not like hearing disturbing things.....they have become media consuming automatons living in a show biz fairyland and completely unable to absorb facts and figures, especially facts and figures which suggest that the tooth fairy does not exist.

To be fair in our youth we all thought we could change the world into a good place where everything would be sorted out by the power of love.   The youth of today have no such excuse the future is staring them in the face and the "god cop" "bad cop" ideology of 21st century politics has been exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:49 AM

Do tell us more about that fairyland. After all, you should know: you've been out with the denizens thereof for an awfully long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:06 AM

As someeone who makes their living based on facts and figures, it is worth reminding ourselves that it is easy to use them to avoid thinking. Whether the tuition fees promise is affordable or not is good example. It is easy to look at the costs, the taxation or borrowing required to pay for it and come to a conclusion for or against.

And that represents a minute proportiom of the implications of the policy. Even restricting ourselves to the economics - and i would suggest the social implications are aa important - you have to remember such things are more like cutting a strand in a spiders web: the change has repercussions thoughout the entire system. Anyone who argues the whole thing just looking at the single strand is not thinking adequately.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:07 AM

Is that all you have to contribute Steve?

Joe has made a point about posts which add nothing to discussion, the situation in UK politics at the moment is not funny and there is no point in trying to obscure the truth.
We have been living beyond our means for decades and at last we are being forced to face up to that reality.
Unfortunately our people have been so politically and socially subverted that few have the guts to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

Yes I understand that "D", but our finances are finite; how do we decide which policy is the most worthy, who must be left in limbo?
How does it all relate to the mantra of "equality"?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:22 AM

"and i would suggest the social implications are aa important "
No argument there - an under-educated population is a total waste of human resources and one sure way of of proliferating that waste is to only educate those who can afford it.
"Is that all you have to contribute Steve?"
Sice when have you been appointed an adjudicator with the power to decide what is and is not relevant?

Your hit-'n-run contributions add nothing but aggression to these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:27 AM

I've contributed a hundred times more discussion to these threads than you. In terms of making reasonably coherent points, that hundred zooms upwards to infinity. That isn't me bragging. That's the point that your arguments are incoherent, confused, bigoted and nonsensical. You're the socialist who supports Farage, Trump and Theresa May (you told us you were voting for her, remember?), the socialist who hates gay people and who would discriminate against them, the socialist xenophobe. And you expect people to try to engage in reasonable argument with you. You're the bloke in the session that finds himself playing on his own (I had to refrain from saying playing with yourself) because everyone else has sneaked off to a different pub without telling him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:33 AM

Many other members of all political persuasions find what I have to say interesting Steve, I cannot be held responsible for your lack of comprehension.
You are certainly too abusive and personal to make much impact on any debate or discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:43 AM

"Our resources are finite"

Never get a mathematician started on the difference between finite and limited. :)

I agree there are always choices to be made. But very often people are unaware of when they are making the choice. For example staying on this example I invite people to reflect on the links between student fees and the building industries. So do your best to understand the choices and then make them. The God of the Balance Sheet is not always the best guide.



Let me give an example of where we have fallen into the habit of not thinking about student fees. We see it as either the tax payer pays or the student pays and the crux of the argument is who pays what share.

But if you go back to the Browne report that led to the introduction of fees it discussed three funders, not two. It is a long time since I read it but I vaguely remember it being section 7.4.something. It pointed out that businesses are significant beneficiaries so need to pay a share. Admittedly it then said they do this though salaries so there is no need to discuss it further. But that is entirely a *political* decision, not an economic one. People could argue whether it is right or wrong but through laziness many have forgotten it is even a question.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:47 AM

Ake says:

"Yes I understand that "D", but our finances are finite..."

That is at best arguable, and at worst clearly untrue, in a country with its own currency. Our resources are finite, but our finances are not. Look up Modern Monetary Theory. Ok, it has its detractors, including Krugman as well as some Austrian school economists, but is quite clear that the size of the money supply is a political decision, not a hard limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

Name these multitudinous allies of yours, akenaton. I haven't detected a single one so far who I'd let buy me a pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:07 AM

Well David, I have never agreed with the workings of the Capitalist economic system especially the practice of "quantitative easing", so perhaps we have different perspectives here.
The point I was making to "D" that although long term thinking and planning are important in the construction of political policies, they do not fit in well with the requirements of the capitalist economic system or democracy as we have come to understand it.
What I refer to as the "good cop" "bad cop" political mentality requires quick changes in political policies, regardless of their affordability or effectiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:08 AM

I suppose that the received wisdom about tuition fees is that free higher education became unsustainable once it underwent a pretty explosive expansion. Well I don't agree with that. If investing in our young people is a worthwhile thing then the country should pay.

I have mixed feelings about the funding of care for the elderly. I've never thought it right that some lucky buggers can inherit fortunes while others get nowt, nothing to do with merit. So does that mean that your assets should indeed be used to fund your care? All of 'em? Some, and, if some, what proportion? Is it fair that someone who's unfortunate enough to suffer many years of dementia should use up their assets to pay for care whereas it doesn't cost you a penny if you suddenly drop dead? What about the families bearing the burden of their relative suffering long-term illness - should that be recognised when considering the extent of protection of assets? Should we all pay extra tax, based on ability to pay, into a compulsory fund that pays for all care for the elderly? The socialist bit of me thinks that that would be fair. I don't envy politicians who have to grapple with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:08 AM

the situation in UK politics at the moment is not funny

It is actually, aken. That doesn't mean it's not also very worrying and serious. It's black humour, but extremely funny.

As the saying goes - "If you don't laugh you'd cry".    We make jokes about "Keep Calm and Carry On", but that's what you have to do in troubled times. Making jokes about it is part of doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:18 AM

You make a good point Mr McGrath, but Steve's quip had little to do with the political situation and more about being snide and abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:22 AM

Another hurdle which must arise with DUP negotiations is actually understanding what the hell they are saying!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:26 AM

Things get even weirder:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/ruth-davidson-planning-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/

Scottish Tory leader (openly lesbian) wins substantial gains for her party by disregarding the instructions of the UK party's leader, while the UK leader's strategy sends her party down the toilet to such an extent that there would be no possibility of it holding power without those Scottish gains.

So, the UK party goes into a coalition with a bunch of gun-toting fundie fascists who want to ban gay marriage. (Davidson isn't married yet but expects to be in the near future).

Scottish Tories (whose election platform was largely about opposing independence) then contemplate splitting their party off to become a separate organization...

In Jerry Springer's position I'd offer to host the next Tory Party conference.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:41 AM

One thing is, there's no way the Zombie May Administration will be able to bring back legal fox hunting.

And there's a good few other things that she would find it hard for her to hold on to. The bedroom tax perhaps. Or the regime of vicious "sanctions" on people on benefits.   A motion to reverse those could have a very good chance of succeeding in Parliament? I suspect in fact she might make out she wanted to get rid of those all along, and even preempt any such motion by doing it herself.

And her ability to go too far along the road of slashing our human rights should be shackled considerably.

I'm pretty certain there'll be a fresh election soon, very likely before Christmas. And maybe next time the Labour Party won't be tearing itself to bits in the run-up. I don't see much mileage in carrying on with the Corbyn-must-go campaign now. Reselecting MPa who persisted in that would now I suspect be seen as common sense rather than as extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:49 AM

The only problem with your proposition jack, is that many of the new Tory constituencies in Scotland are pro Brexit......the vote was not down to Miss Davidson's charisma, but rather a wish to see Brexit carried through successfully. In the same manner as I a lifelong socialist voted Conservative for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:24 AM

THeresa May has been served with an ultimatum by her party that if she does not sack her two advisors b the end of the week-end she will face a leadership challenge
They are being held totally responsible for the cock-up and also for creating a "toxic and devisive atmosphere within Number Ten
While they appear to be the party's main sacrificial lambs, 'May or May Not' has been accused by her MPs of refusing to accept any blame whatever
Moderate Consevatives are drawing a line under how far they are prepared to go with U.D.P. dinosaurs regarding their archaic attitudes on Same-Sex marriage and pregnancy termination
Lovely cartoon comment in the Irish Times this morning - one disembodied voice asks "What will you get out of it?" (the deal) and another replies "They'll start teaching Creationism in English Schools"
Must start selling the tickets to this circus!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:25 AM

Are you sure of that, ake? You can get all the EU referendum results as a CSV download and, picking Angus as just an example because it had high profile, there were 32747 voted to remain and 26511 to leave. Hardly pro-Brexit.   Similarly Stirling had 33112
to remain and 15787 to leave. I haven't looked at any others.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:45 AM

You may be right "D"....I was just thinking of the fishing and farming communities without checking the stats, though I'm sure it wasn't Miss Davidson's charisma. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 10:24 AM

If Theresa May had the least shred of tactics or strategy, she'd have set aside the notion of cosying up to the DUP, and putting the while peace settlement at risk, and invited Jeremy Corbyn to talk about some kind of arrangement for the time being.

Even if he refused, that would have strengthened her by reinforcing her claim to be a one-nation Tory. If he accepted that would have meant she could make a play of having been sincere in that, by actually following through on it. Then they could talk about which bits of her ambitions could be ditched, and whether there were reforms they could actually agree on.

After all, she has indicated she admires Churchill, and he has indicated he greatly respects Attlee, and they did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:25 AM

An excellent idea Mr McGrath, but unfortunately too dangerous for both I think.

The "liberals would knife Jeremy immediately...they are just waiting their chance.
Theresa(note the spelling)would never survive consorting with "terrorist sympathisers"...the right wing would go bananas.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM

Some good points here from Craig Murray, about strategy for the SNP.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/06/snp-must-sell-radical-vision-not-just-managerial-competence/

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:37 AM

"The "liberals would knife Jeremy immediately."
If you are referring to the left as yo u usually are, all the attacks on Crbyn have come from the Blairite right and from those opposing BDS
The liberasls (aka Left) helped put Corbyn where he is and supported him against the barrage of smears by the right - those same "liberals" (left) have just justified his being there in Thursdays election
Accusing the "liberals" left) of wanting to knife him is beneath contempt -   that is the desire of extremist righties like yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

No, I am referring to the "liberal" left....you know who you are.
The ones who banned the word socialism from the Labour dictionary.
The ones you have supported staunchly for the last decade.

Actually the result suits Jeremy very well a rise in standing amongst his supporters without having to put his head on the block and a chance to educate the young on the mysteries of socialism.

Pity they are not going to like the real thing very much, I reckon another couple of generations before socialism is found to be a necessity.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

"No, I am referring to the "liberal" left....you know who you are."
No - you told us that your "liberals were "fascists" a contradiction in terms.
You got up on your chair whe you were described for what you are claiming we have no idea what your politics are, yet you feel free to tell us what ours are.
I am a socialist who believes in public ownership and workers democracy - everything which you have described as "liberal - aka fascist"
You claim you don't have to be "left" to be socialist yet every definition of the term contradicts that
Apart from KKK Coulter's and Trumpist literature, can you point us to the source of your definition or is it just "one you prepared earlier?
The longer you continue with this the more you confirm yourself a National Socialist, which has nothing to do with true socialist ideology.
Yu behaviour really is no more than trollism at its most extreme
"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms:        leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More - (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism."
There you go - I've shown you mine, now you show me yours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:09 PM

I'm no fan of Nicola Sturgeon but have generally seen her as a slick and shrewd political operator (that isn't necessarily intended as a compliment). I'm surprised that she screwed up in this campaign. The whole point of her party is to fight for greater, or total, independence for Scotland. Putting that on the back burner was a grievous blunder. If I lived in Scotland I'd vote for independence every time. Being scared of frightening the horses is spot-on. She needs to get her guns a-blazing again.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:41 PM

Jim dear boy, what you are describing is a dinosaur living in the age of "industrial development", the working class have left the building, they are no longer a political force, society has moved on ...or backward.

There is no left and right in political terms, do you not observe voting patterns.....the electorate is no longer informed by reading Marks or Keynes, but by watching chat shows and daytime television.
Society is becoming dumber by the day and not by accident.

Political change can only be achieved through unity, while we are engaged in political civil war nothing will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM

They should raise the voting age to 40.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 01:20 PM

This is funny.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 02:09 PM

Congratulations to Gavin Barwell, who lost his Croydon Central Seat, on being appointed the new Chief of Staff to No.10 - well deserved appointment for the most hard working MP of all, fantastic news for Croydon!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

If "the liberal left would knife Jeremy immediately", how would that be a problem for Theresa, aken? It might even take some of the heat off her. And of course he is well used to being knifed by fellow members.

I wasn't saying such an understanding between the parties would actually happen, but that inviting it is a very obvious move for Theresa May, or any replacement Tory leader who gets thrown up by them in the next few days. Whether it came to something, or came to nothing, either way it would tend to help her (or her replacement).

We know of course from the whole business of this election that Theresa May is in some ways remarkably arrogant and obtuse, in common with her predecessor in regard to his referendum. (Both in setting it in motion, and it not laying down ground rules to reduce the risk of it going the wrong way for him, such as a minimum margin of victory, or a requirement that all the countries in the UK needed to agree to a change, or even extending the vote in the referendum in the way that it had been in Scotland for their referendum, in which 16 year-olds and settled tax paying immigrants were able to vote) But you'd think there'd been someone in her entourage who'd played some game more complicated than Snap in their time.
.........
Theresa May's bizarre Downing Street speech announcing that she was ignoring the humiliating election result - which she didn't mention - brought to mind Maggie Thatcher's initial response to the vote by Tory members which she hadn't actually lost. "We will fight on and fight to win". I suspect Theresa May's bid to hold on to power by cosying up with the DUP might have the same kind of lifespan.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

"Jim dear boy, what you are describing is a dinosaur living in the age of "industrial development","
Please don't attempt t talk down to me or anybody - you will never be tall enough
The working class most certainly have not "left the building"
The fact that your people have done away with employment for many doesn't mean that those who have no other way of making a living have disappeared into a puff of smoke
You want to plump for unity - go look at the rapidly increasinbg gap between those who have and those who haven't - that's where you will find your working classes
Do away with that gap and you will have unity - but that will never happen while the state is run by the privileged.
You are the only one to have mentioned "civil war" - can't remember anyvbody else doing so.
It stands neatly beside you describing criticism of the establishment as "sedition" and seeking to censor it.
If you can't be arsed to either describe or even understand what you are talking about, I suggest you take the advice I was once given by a strapping young woman and "come back when you've got hairs on it".
You appear to have picked up all of your mentor, Teribus's manarisims of bullying and luster so your postings don't even have the merit of originality.
Sheesh - where do they find these people!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:24 PM

Fantastic news for Croydon that the Tory lost his seat? I'd certainly think so. Congratulations.

I rather liked that Book of Jeremy.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:33 PM

The point about the dementia tax is that it would have aggregated house values with assets far more widely than was previously the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:35 PM

Oh, and of course it replaced previous con-servative undertakings to cap care fees.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:40 PM

its a bloody drag - having to have another election before long

i hate all the rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:11 PM

It'd be good to have a chance to finish off the job started with this election. Next time Labour won't be tearing itself apart in the run-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:40 PM

Mr Barwell does appear to have more humanity than most of his Tory colleagues:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/refugees-welcome-mp-praises-graffiti-near-scene-of-vicious-asylum-seeker-attack-a3505376.html

We can but hope it's catching.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:00 PM

"Next time Labour won't be tearing itself apart in the run-up."
Probably the best thing to come out of this election.
Nobody can claim that alternative policies can't win elections and Corbyn's approach has proved a force to be reckoned with
Still time to claim that Labour has been infiltrated by Satanists or Flat Earthists I suppose - you can't keep a good smear down.
I suppose everybody is now aware that Mayfly's two advisers have now been forced to fall on their swords!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:17 PM

Mrs Steve and I are no champagne socialists but we've been celebrating Jeremy's achievement with a glass of fizz tonight. It's Cremant de Jura Chardonnay 2014 from Aldi. It's £7.99, which is three quid over our usual ceiling prosecco price, but, dammit, Jezz is worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:23 PM

I just had a bottle of beer. (Actually, I prefer it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:30 PM

I'm not fussy. Once Mrs Steve's hit the sack of a Saturday night, rocket fuel will do me. Other nights, well I'm not telling you...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:19 AM

Student Debt - 85% of them will never be repaid

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:01 AM

So what? Stop imposing it then. It makes it a bloody sight harder to get on the housing ladder, etc., if you have to declare a £50000 millstone round your neck, regardless of whether there's the prospect of paying it back. I thought that would make you Tories incandescent. Remind me - what was Maggie's big thing about a property-owning democracy...?

And that isn't even a good reason for not having tuition fees!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:06 AM

Not sure what your link shows other than to prove that students will be burdened with an unpayable debt for a large portion of their working lives
No of which goes anywhere near to responding to the fact that the sysyem puts higher education totally out of reach of millions of young people - an elitist education system.
Jim Carroll


I'll put this up in all its glory
Independant Saturday 18 February 2017
Debts accumulated during university years are so high that students are suffering from mental ill health and cannot afford to buy food, according to new research.
Sky-high tuition fees and the rising cost of living have been blamed for "overwhelming" stress levels felt by the majority of students, with one in seven admitting they have been chased by debt collectors as a result of missing rent payments.
A survey commissioned by financial technology company Intelligent Environments found three-quarters of students who receive maintenance loans feel stressed about the amount of debt they accumulate while studying, with over a third (39 per cent) saying they cannot afford their weekly food shop.
Disadvantaged teenagers four times less likely to apply for university
Over a quarter of students admitted to missing rent payments, with three in five polled (58 per cent) running out of money completely before their next payment is due.
Estelle Clarke, advisory board member for the Intergenerational Foundation, said the findings were particularly concerning in light of recent Government moves to sell off student loan debts to private companies.
She said: "There is an undisputed negative relationship between debt and mental health. Being unable to pay bills is particularly stressful.
"Student loans put unnecessary pressure on borrowers because they are so expensive. It is upsetting to think of students depriving themselves of food and perhaps enduring loneliness, trapped in their rooms because they cannot afford to eat or go out.
"Unfortunately, the proposed sales of student loans could well make the situation even worse," she added. "This grossly unfair reality has serious implications for mental health."
David Webber, managing director at Intelligent Environments, called the results "worrying" and suggested banks could do more to support younger customers, in particular in managing their finances.
But industry experts warn the figures are reflective of a higher education system that is becoming increasingly unaffordable, forcing students to take out unmanageable loans they will never be able to pay off.
Ucas figures released earlier this month pointed to a dramatic fall in student application numbers from the UK and abroad, fuelling fears many students are being put off higher education due to the financial implications.
Shelly Asquith, National Union of Students (NUS) vice president said: "Students are being mounted with colossal levels of debt that are increasing year on year.
"The NUS is concerned about the impact this has on the likelihood of working-class students to apply to university.
"We also believe that increased poverty and debt is a major factor in the sharp increase of students experiencing mental ill health."
In spite of social stereotypes, the top three items students said they spend their money on were rent (78 per cent), food (69 per cent) and utility bills (47 per cent), with the average student loan fund running dry by the sixth week of term.
A significant proportion of students with maintenance loans said they rely on additional sources of income to get through the term, with two-thirds (65 per cent) turning to parents or other family members in times of need.
Others rely on their student overdrafts (58 per cent), dip into their savings (27 per cent), incur further debts on credit cards (six per cent) and even take out payday loans (nine per cent) to help tide them over.
Fionnuala Allen, a second year Nutrition student at Manchester Metropolitan University, said although she enjoyed university, the experience had been marred significantly by stress caused by her finances.
"I receive the maintenance loan and work around 30 hours a month but most of my money goes to rent, food and utilities," she said.
"My maintenance loan runs out really quickly and my job is a zero-hours contract, so I can only work when there are shifts available.
"I regularly go into my student overdraft to get by, and in the past I've had to borrow money from my dad. Before Christmas I had to ask my estate agent if they were OK with me paying my rent a month late.
"My housemates and I were also on a diet of rice and peas for a week because it's cheap and you can buy it in bulk.
Student debt worries causing depression and alcohol dependency
"People assume students spend their money on nights out, but I regularly have to choose not to go out, so I can buy food. I've also had to miss classes and delay assignments when shifts become available and I have to take them when I can. It's really stressful constantly thinking about money when I should be focusing on my studies."
The total student debt owed in the UK is currently estimated at £71bn, with students in England leaving university with the highest average debt in the English-speaking world, a study revealed last year.
This month the Government began controversial plans to sell off billions of pounds worth of student debt to private loan companies, a move experts warned could lead come at a high cost to taxpayers.
Universities Minister Jo Johnson said there would be no impact on graduates with loans, but union leaders have attacked the decision – with the NUS accusing the Government of pulling an "ugly move" on students.
Ms Clarke added: "The dreadful injustice is that every single day, while students are scrimping and saving, punitive monthly compounding interest is being added to their loans, snowballing them into unmanageable debt – and at a time when students can, literally, do nothing about it.
"While students are suffering from lack of money, extortionate interest charges are still being added to their loans. It is exploitation at best.
"The Government has created this issue and now needs to remedy it with fair financing for students."
Mr Webber said: "The fact that students are taking on further debts such as credit cards, overdrafts and even payday loans to repay the money they already owe, is worrying. Debt can have a devastating effect on people, impacting everything from exam results to relationships with partners, family and friends.
"Banks need to be doing more to assist students in managing their finances responsibly to help them get through university without having to resort to more forms of borrowing.
"As younger generations look for digital solutions to keep on top of their spending and debt repayment levels, banks need to adapt and provide students with the digital tools to improve their relationship with money.
"This will help them keep on top of outgoings and monthly budgets. Greater visibility around spending habits will make people more aware of their bank balance, making it harder for them to go into debt unnecessarily."
Universities Minister Jo Johnson said in response: "Let me be clear: this sale will have no impact on students or graduates, including those whose loans are part of a sale. Any suggestion that this will affect students is incorrect and irresponsible.
"This Government is committed to bringing public finances under control. As part of this we will look to sell assets where value for money to the UK taxpayer is assured.
"Any sale will only proceed once we are satisfied that it represents value for money for the taxpayer."

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

So what Shaw??

You are among those wittering on about crippling debt - debt is crippling only if you HAVE TO repay it - As shown in the examples given in the article I provided the link to it would appear that the vast bulk of student loans will never be repaid and that the restricted deductions from salary are extremely modest and can in no way be described as "crippling"

Oh by the way Jom anybody earning between £32,000 and £35,000 a year who cannot afford to go out for a meal at least once a month,m or cannot afford to put food on the table is either piss poor at managing his/her money or a miser.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:17 AM

Try getting a loan if you have big debt, you clown. Here's an actual case close to me. Person I know in debt. TSB loan offer to them to clear it over four years, interest 22.5%. I took on their debt and took out a loan with TSB. Loan offer 3.5%. I pay the loan and my person pays me. That's reality. It doesn't seem to exist in your world.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

Teribus, I really don't agree with your first point, although that is maybe a personal perspective. I would never, for instance, take out an interest only mortgage, I would only incur debt if I could see an end to it in sight.

I do agree with your second point though. I get fed up with people who are really quite well off, claiming to have been "left behind". Its those on disability benefit, those sanctioned as they have been declared fit for work, and those who really cannot work as they have, for instance, learning difficulties, who have my sympathies.

Find you, just because you can afford to go out for a meal, doesn't mean you have to. Always check the food hygiene scores.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:48 AM

i'm fed up with Corbyn saying, I'm ready to serve the country...

I always feel like saying ....in that case...cod, chips, mushy peas and a bottle of vimto.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

"£32,000 and £35,000 "
Who was referring to them? - we are talking about working people who can't afford to be educated, not those who have managed to scrabble up the greasy pole
Loans exclude working people - simples, go read the facts instead of distorting them.
Yu have all the smugness of the privileged - if you are not one of them you have your nose wedged firmly up their collective arses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:31 AM

No they don't Jim, and all UK universities have widening access programmes which benefit students from families from low income households (whatever their projected income might be). If people like you keep saying that working people can't afford to be educated, they will believe it themselves, and not make the most of their lives.

My grandfather was a coal miner, until the mines in his area closed in the 1920s. Seven generations before him at least were coal miners. My father could have a place at a good school, but, it being the 1920s and 30s, they couldn't afford for him to take it up. Nevertheless he worked his way into what you might describe as a "middle class profession". I wouldn't, I think such terminology is meaningless. But when I had a chance to obtain a good education, my father and grandfather were quite clear, that I should never, ever turn such an opportunity down.

Working class people, if such a term means anything, have more opportunities for education than ever before. And it pains me that so many will not take them.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

"No they don't Jim"
You have been given the situation from a variety of sources, including the Tory's own mouthpiec, The Telegraph
SOME MORE
All lying - don't think so !!
Even "FREE EDUCATION" is suffering under the present regime as things stand
No way to educate a nation
"Working class people, if such a term means anything"
The fact that you have to question this puts you where you are I'm afraid
I've just buried a younger sister who virtually died offour years of being treated by overworked and underpaid staff fighting to meet unattainable targets in a North of England NHS Hospital
Tell any of those involved that there is no class division in today's Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 01:59 PM

Jim, students do have problems but you don't help yourself with that link. A snippet:

"About her life in Liverpool, she says: "It was crazy expensive. The nearest supermarket was a £10 taxi ride away from my flat despite living quite close to the centre; buying food wasn't expensive, but going-out costs and the cost of things to do was really high."

Now I know the University of Liverpool quite well, and there is a Tesco Express right there on campus, there is a LIDL on London Road, its a short walk down Brownlow Hill to ALDI, and there is a vast ASDA at Sefton Park. So you do your shopping between lectures and home. And as for "going-out costs", Liverpool is about the cheapest place in the country to go out, and how often do you do it anyway when you are supposed to be studying. When I did my degree we had Saturday evening off, and Sunday morning for chapel, that was about it. "Things to do"??? Sounds like the lecturers weren't setting enough work.

Student rents are a problem, but Liverpool is again one of the cheaper places.

Now I agree that NHS staff are under huge pressure, courtesy of Mr. Jeremy C. Hunt who seems against all reason to have kept his job today. But thats nothing to with NHS staff being working class, its more to do with perceptions of the public sector. I think many people would not even regard NHS staff as working class, simply because they are public sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:07 PM

I imagine Teribus thinks that nobody gets less than £32,000 to £35,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:11 PM

It's a wonder Jiminy Carolburger has any time to eat, spensing so much time whinging on behalf of other people!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:12 PM

spending!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

"I imagine Teribus thinks..."

I always knew you had a fertile imagination, Kevin.

(Don't worry, chaps, I'm just off to the naughty step...)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

"Jim, students do have problems but you don't help yourself with that link. A snippet:"
Bit of nitpicking there - one line from half a dozen postings
Is The Daily Telegraph (voice of teh Tory Party) really lying on this one?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:08 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 11 Jun 17 - 02:07 PM

I imagine Teribus thinks that nobody gets less than £32,000 to £35,000.

Then you'd imagine wrong Kevin. I mentioned what the payments required under the student scheme would be for people earning that sort of salary - Jom the infallible responded that people could not afford to go out and eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 04:59 PM

It was the Times Higher Education Supplement, Jim, not the Telegraph. And they weren't lying, they were quoting someone. But I am just saying that the someone has quite unreasonable expectations.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:13 PM

"It was the Times Higher Education Supplement, Jim, not the Telegraph"
NO - IT WAS THE TELEGRAPH
Nothing to do with expectations
And please don't tell me about my home town; I was there a couple of weeks ago and I know how cheap it is.
The point you were making was a superficial one - it is the lingering debt that is the problem with student loans and they follow you for years to wherever you come from and wherever you end up
One of the great Thatcher legacies was the situation where, if you need work, the soft South east underbelly is the main place in Britain guaranteed to meet your needs - try paying back your loan and paying London prices for accommodation if you need to work there
I left Liverpool in the late sixties because I couldn't find work and nobody can tell me things have improved since them
"I mentioned what the payments required under the student scheme would be for people earning that sort of salary"
And I pointed out that I wasn't referring to those drawing that sort of salary - I was pointing to the reports which are saying that students fees are excluding the lower paid
Your "good meal" was just a hackneyed Tebbit-like response to that situation - not unrelated to "If they drank less", or "had less children", or didn't fritter their money away on colour teles or the betting shop"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:26 AM

Thats a different link Jim, in your earlier post you gave one link to THES and one to the Daily Mail (which I will not follow as a matter of principle). I know all about student loans, I have three children with them, but I also know that if they had not gone to university their life chances would have been severely curtailed. And I will tell you that things have improved in Liverpool, and the main reason that they have improved has been ERDF Objective 1 funding, European Social Fund and other similar streams. The EU pulled Liverpool out of the mire when the UK would not, although admittedly Heseltine tried.

Another thing from the THES article, the accommodation cost of £130 per week (it is now £145) appears to be for Carnatic student village, where the accommodation is catered. So its really all you need apart from bus fares, and I think there is a shuttle bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:30 AM

Not taking this any further Dave
I did not put uup one link - I put up several.
You chose what you believed to be an Achilles Heel in the argument and concentrated on it to show that higher education has not been put out of reach of ordinary working people and made elitist again
Even the Tory mouthpiece Daily Telegraph admits that it has, - that is what this discussion is about.
Lucky old you to be able to send your kids to University.
Pity the rest of the country can't say the same.
My generation fought for the right to eduacate their children to a higher level and we moved on from Richard Attenborough's "Guinea Pig" days
Now we are back there with a vengeance.
The same is happening with the health service that was opposed by the Tories when it was introduced - whittled and eroded by them into the death-trap it is rapidly becoming - all they had to do was bide their time
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:51 PM

I also know that if they had not gone to university their life chances would have been severely curtailed

But in how many cases is that not because the university degree enables people to be sure of a well paid job, but because if kids don't have a degree their chances of competing in the job market is very much reduced?

Many young people end up doing the same kind of job they could obtained without a degree before graduates became a glut on the market, but with massive debts hanging over them, ready to kick in whenever they start earning more, and damaging their credit options even before that.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:09 AM

I agree with that McGrath; our strategy for higher education is deeply flawed and it was my biggest concern with Labour's no fee policy: it seemes very likely to make those issues worse. I am all for life long education and increasing the skills of everyone. I am not convinced Universities are the answer. Nor am I comfortable that their increasing role as property managers is wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

Jim, that is getting dangerously close to saying "education is not for the likes of us". It is for likes of us, and for our children. Other countries recognise this, and their young people behave accordingly.

McGrath, I don't think most mortgage companies would regard a student loan debt as a block to a mortgage, since it would be written off on a term shorter than a typical mortgage repayment schedule. And people in this position shouldn't really be looking at other "credit options".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:33 AM

A student loan may not block a mortgage application, unless you're saddled with other debts as well, but it is taken into consideration when your affordability assessment is made. The rules on this were tightened up several years ago. It's likely to have an impact on most applicants.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

""education is not for the likes of us""
Exactly the opposite Dave
Education has to be for the likes of us, butt thanks to previous administrations it has become less accessible
Things and policies need to change if the mass of humanity in our society is not to continue being downgraded and wasted
I come from a family that realised the necessity of education if we were going to reach our full potential - my granndfather helped found the Seman's branch of the Workers Education Association   - it's in the blood
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:57 AM

A lot of further education was designed simply to keep school leavers off the dole queue. Some of the courses on offer are idiotic and useless. Education should mean real education not social experimentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:16 AM

A lot of further education was designed simply to keep school leavers off the dole queue"
No it wasn't - prove it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:59 AM

oh god JIm, was it ever?

i remember ROSLA -raising of the school age to 16.
they were already kicking their heels for a year at fifteen.
there was no extra money, no planning. no new exciting courses.
they were all promised - you'll get a package detailing the brave new world.
i remember one old salt in the staffroom said - yeh i bet we'll open it and its just got a cane inside!

Heath just didn't fancy paying them dole money. that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:47 AM

"oh god JIm, was it ever?"
Not sure there is any evidence of that being anything more than a lack of imagination Al.
All the right-wing Governments I've been conscious of have been happy to let school leavers hang around street corners and fend for themselves.
The problem with all national politics is that it deals with all these things as separate issues rather than approaching the holistically
I was a product of the Secondary Modern conveyor belt system of education and an remember being envious of my younger sisters who experienced Comprehensive education - not perfect by any means but better than what I got
I don't think our politicians have enough imaginations to conceive conspiracies, such as are being suggested here - they don't care enough anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:58 AM

Well stop telling "the likes of us" that we can't afford it then Jim.

Ake: thats bollocks. Just try one of the courses if you are in doubt. Register for an OU access module, they are free to people on low incomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 09:27 AM

Which idiotic and useless course educated you, akenaton? Just so that I can advise my grandson to avoid it and end up like you, you understand...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

Ake: define "real education".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:28 AM

"the likes of us"
I haven't - you introduced the term into the conversation - not one I use.
It seems fairly widely accepted that higher education is now beyond the expectations of of the less well off in Britain - hope you are not telling me I shouldn't mention that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:54 AM

I made top class in a grammar school, left at fifteen to serve apprenticeship as a stonemason/ bricky.

Never regretted it once......but it was bloody hard.

Best thing? Being able to see and touch your contribution to the welfare of friends and neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:21 PM

very ironic title to this thread!
i bet no one would have chosen this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:51 PM

Jim, you can mention it as long as you are prepared to accept that I, as someone who worked until very recently in higher education, and am a parent to three children who have recently been through higher education, will disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:42 PM

yes but....if you've got nowt in mind for the kids to do - why keep them in school. for many of them, it was like being sentenced to a year in the nick.

back in '71 - most of them could get jobs. this was before the EEC and Thatcher working their subtle magic.

i totally agree about the sec mods - they were variable in quality, to say the least.

i always felt i was doing my bit to drive the standards down.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:35 PM

The logic of tuition fees would justify imposing them for sixth forms as well. And in fact for all schooling.
...........

Yes it's a mess, Al. But far better than a sizeable majority for the Tories. They'll be completely hamstrung when it comes to introducing any legislation that doesn't have consensus support across the house, and at the mercy of a handful of byelections. And her MPs are liable to be virtually handcuffed to the Chamber in order to avoid voting ambushes by Labour.

It's been rightly said that Theresa is in office, but not in power - but in many ways the same is true of the Tories as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:35 AM

"Jim, you can mention it as long as you are prepared to accept that I,"
I accept your personal experience completely as long as you recognise that I come from a part of Britain where my neighbours, friends and associates cannot afford to send their children to higher education because of the prohibitive costs described in the articles I provided
It really isn't about what is happening in our own personal bubbles - it is about what has happened to education throughout Britain.
You have been given the general picture from the national press, you offer your own situation in return - in Liverpool we used to refer to that as, "Ding, ding; I'm on the bus".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:37 AM

Is no use harking back to the jobs people were going in to in 1971, Big Al, those jobs have gone for good. Nothing at all to do with the EEC, something to do with Thatcher, but most to do with the nature of the world. The future is in high skilled jobs, Harold Wilson saw that at the time. Hence the expansion of higher education and skills training.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:19 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:28 AM

"the likes of us"
I haven't - you introduced the term into the conversation - not one I use.
It seems fairly widely accepted that higher education is now beyond the expectations of of the less well off in Britain - hope you are not telling me I shouldn't mention that!
It was ever thus. It is not a new thing brought in by the Conservative party.
Children of the "less well off" were often kept out of higher education even when there was a full grant available, because their families needed an extra pay packet to come in to the family finances.
The facts of life even then meant that the children of "better off" families were more likely to be able to go to university.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: JHW
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:33 AM

I haven't time to read all the previous posts but have just heard of David Cameron offering advice to Theresa May on how to do Brexit with no house majority.
How dare he! He got us and his party into this then walked away!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:35 AM

We're not disputing the long existing flaws in higher education - this is about the fact that the barriers stopping working people educating their children have now become insurmountable thanks to increasing financial hurdles.
Higher education has now become unattainable to vast swathes of the British population - we had started to move away from that fact
"One step forward, two steps back" as Lenin once so eloquently put if
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM

The only responsible thing to do would be to have a fresh general election. If there have to be any delays in doing that, a temporary shared administration could be set up for the next few weeks. Ken Clarke would be a possible interim Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 10:08 AM

Well I didn't know this when saying something complimentary about Barwell's anti-racist position:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/tories-sat-on-tower-block-fire-safety.html

The property and building industry tycoons Barwell was defending just murdered far more immigrants than those Nazi thugs could have dreamed of.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM

The only responsible thing to do would be to have a fresh general election. If there have to be any delays in doing that, a temporary shared administration could be set up for the next few weeks. Ken Clarke would be a possible interim Prime Minister.

WHY?

The result could be just the same, and prove to be a complete waste of time and money. This is not the first time we've had a minority government, or a coalition.
They have the justification of having been put in place following the correct process. Just let them get on with it.

Or are you looking at the EU view, insist on re-running elections/referenda until you get the 'right' result?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:25 AM

Jim, its not "working people" who have these stringencies, its those who can't find work. But I repeat, as I said above, bursaries are often available from universities for students from low income households.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:26 AM

Well said Nigel.....In Scotland the Conservatives did well from a very low base.......the EU promoting SNP did not do well.

Similarly in England, a vote for Corbyn is definitely a vote for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:39 AM

i think you're right about the general election. this miasma is no good.

trouble is,   think jc would win right now - and i don't think st theresa has that in her vision.

explain the ding ding - i'm on the bus.

i didn't get that

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:41 AM

What we need are less mediocre students doing useless courses...and more workers who actually produce something.

Invest in our labour force, 1 years compulsory work experience for all school leavers, a life on benefits not an option, we need more homes, invest in apprenticeships, build houses for rent only, mixed working practices including seasonal agricultural work. Cut economic migration to the limit.

Give all contribution a sense of value regardless of financial remuneration. instil the belief that we must become less wasteful, less well off financially...the common good. Make people understand that we must all contribute to the welfare of our old and disabled.
A reasonable ceiling on personal wealth.


I know it's long term but it's the only way

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:34 PM

"explain the ding ding - i'm on the bus."
Though it was self - explanatory - sorry
The Scouse equivalent of "I'm all right Jack"
" its those who can't find work. "
Nope - it's the whole shebang now.
"Bursaries "
The Telegraph again
"University has never been more expensive. Tuition fees have risen to a maximum £9,000 per year, but with living costs included a three-year degree could set you back as much as £75,000.
Many universities offer their own scholarships and bursaries to lessen the financial burden. But with these massively oversubscribed, it is well worth casting the net a little wider."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/student-finance/9834882/University-scholarships-10-unusual-student-bursaries.html

£75,000 is Monopoly money to most working people - that used to be what you won on the football pools
A PIPE DREAM FOR SOME CAREERS
You really do need to get (out of your bubble) more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:36 PM

Similarly in England, a vote for Corbyn is definitely a vote for Brexit.

That is a very odd view, ake, but I have heard from quite a few people who werw prominent in the Leave campaign. It is completely untrue and I offer myself and I presume Steve Shaw as counter examples.

Labour put forward lots of proposals, the Conversatives substantially less. People voted for whichever they thought closest to their view. That means there were policies we definitely wanted and others we definitely did not want. One cross is not sophisticated enough to indicate which bits we liked and which bits we didnt. So no, it is utterly false to claim people who voted Labour - or Conservative come to that - voted for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:01 PM

Seen on Twitter:

1979 - Callaghan 269 seats, resigned
1992 - Kinnock 271 seats, resigned
2017 - Corbyn 262 seats, claims victory & orders the winner to resign

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:52 PM

less well off financially...the common good

Start with the billionaire bankers, landlords and company directors on that one ake. See where it gets you.

Bobad. Neither Callahan nor Kinnock had the odds stacked against them like Corbyn had. The mainstream media and people like yourself have spent months trying to destroy him but he has turned the polls round from a 20-odd point Tory lead to almost nothing. He may not have won the election but he has certainly cocked a snook at you lot.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:03 PM

Could it not be that at least 50% of Corbyn's 'success' was due to the Bullingdon Club members and the Eton set showing TM who is really in charge of the Tory party?

Perhaps they didn't expect things to go quite so badly for her, but she had the same 'eyes in the headlights' look in her face towards the end of the campaign that David Davies had towards the end of his leadership battle with David Cameron. I imagine both had been told what was going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:49 PM

Well, now there is a thing Stanron. The Bulligdon bully boys fucked up good and proper when they misjudged the mood of the population over the EU referendum. One of their number, a certain BoJo, was sacrificed on the altar by the living Spitting Image puppet Gove after pig sticker general fell on his sword. This gave May a chance. Now you are saying those same bully boys dislike May that much that they have helped their opponents to gain ground over her and therefore their own party. Murdoch has now insisted that the puppet gets back in power and May gets in bed with the nasty party.

And this is a good demonstration of a strong and stable party is it? Carry on this way please. Maybe you can get Murdoch to run an 'I love Corbyn' section in the Scum?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:19 PM

DMcG....Mr Corbyn has stated categorically that he sees the referendum result as "the will of the people".
Mr Corbyn has traditionally been against the EU and all its works.
I believe Mr Corbyn is more of a socialist than he is a "liberal" and I believe he has a vision for the coming decades. I think he is the right man at the wrong time.

the economy will have to get much more fragile before his vision will be acceptable to the uk population.

Mr Corbyn disappointingly does not seem to have any qualms regarding playing politics with the aspirations of middle class youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:43 PM

Yes, I know, ake, but that is a different thing. If I support Labour and Labour support Brexit it does not follow I support Brexit.

Let me illustrate with an noncontentious example. Suppose I want to buy a used car and have a choice of three. One is perfect for my needs but has plastic seats I hate. The second also has plastic seats and I dislike it for other reasons as well. A third has cloth seats, which I prefer, but has very high mileage, oil leaks and so on.

If I buy the near perfect car it would be completely flawed logic to deduce I prefer plastic seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:07 PM

Trust me, Barwell was hated and deemed corrupt in Croydon, because he was palsy-walsy with developers. I was there from time to time helping with the successful campaign to get rid of the little snit. Walk up London Road and ask the people you meet about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:51 AM

playing politics with the aspirations of middle class youth

There you have it. Ake believes that offering all young people a chance to go to university regardless of their financial situation is playing politics. His is the politics of envy. He never had the chances that our children have so they should not either. Some socialist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

I think we're at cross purposes "D", I agree with your analogy, butmy point is that Mr Corbyn has apparently taken the idea of a second referendum off the table and I would not be surprised to see a degree of co operation between Mrs May and Mr Corbyn in securing a satisfactory Brexit.

The main driver for Brexit was the promise to end "Free movement" and as a socialist cannot see Mr Corbyn trying to build a new society built on cheap immigrant Labour.

If we are unwilling to accept "free Movement", IMO there will be no deal and we must walk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:32 AM

"Mr Corbyn trying to build a new society built on cheap immigrant Labour."
Free movement is a nasty "Brexitspeak" invention to denigrate immigration and immigrants.
People have always utilised the option to wander the world to seek work - the Irish to America, the Welsh to Patagonia, the Scots to Canada, the English to every corner of the Empire....
The E.U. made it a co-operative enterprise and beneficial to both the immigrants and the host nations - nothing whatever to do with "cheap labour"
Cheap labour is about predatory employers being a fee hand by opp
opptunistic governments.
Brexit was floated on the racist policy of "too many foreigners" and its main advocate was a beer-swilling moron who founded a now discredited party.
Leaving Europe may have satisfied the basic instincts of the Little Englanders in stopping immigration, but it has put the future of the British economy at risked, had damaged the Union to the extent of putting the Good Friday Agreement at risk and it has made Britain dependent on imports made by countries producing goods and near slave labour condidtions
And still we have people clambering to the top of the mound waving the Union Jack!
Sheesh!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:44 AM

Dave,
Ake believes that offering all young people a chance to go to university regardless of their financial situation is playing politics. His is the politics of envy.

Dishonest Dave,
The current system already provides free tuition.
Only those who become wealthy and successful as a result of their university education then have to contribute to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

Nothing dishonest about my statement Keith. It was my opinion of ake's politics. No more, no less.

As to Only those who become wealthy and successful as a result of their university education then have to contribute to it. Well...

You have to start repaying the loans if you earn more that £18000 on plan 1. If that is your definition of wealthy I am afraid I must remind you...

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:43 AM

Repeatedly it gets claimed that people "voted for an end to immigration". Nobody did - it wasn't on the ballot. There were many other reasons people may have voted to leave the EU. For example remaining in it could make bringing railways back into public ownership, or restrict a government's powers to limit the actions of employers.

An end to free movement for people from other EU countries, and to our own freedom of movement beyond our borders, was clearly what many of the 52% wanted, but there's no reason to assume that so many felt that way that they made up a majority of the overall vote.

A Norway type outcome in which freedom of movement remains, but there are fewer constraints when it comes to the kind of things I mentioned could be possible, and would be quite compatible with the outcome of the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:05 AM

"Nobody did - it wasn't on the ballot."
It was implicit in the campaign Dave - hence Usick's racist poster depicting a huge queue of immigrants ready to take our jobs, houses and women
Immmediately the result was announced, people were approacded and asked when they were going "home" and there was a sharp rise in racist incidents.
It may not have been on the ballot but it was on the cards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:29 AM

Dave, you have posted your trite and boring little litany again.
There was no issue of morality, language or space travel in my post.

On plan 1 you only have to pay 9% of earnings above £18000, so you only repay significant amounts if you do become wealthy and successful.

If you earned £19000 you would only repay £90.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:54 AM

"nothing whatever to do with "cheap labour"

Hang on didn't Corbyn say during the election campaign that he was going to:

a) Accede to EU requirement for free movement of labour

b) Stop foreign contract labour gangs from working in the UK undercutting UK rates of pay.

This presents a direct contradiction and b) would be regarded as being illegal by the EU as b) is a restraint of trade within the EU.

Unfortunately for Carroll & Co., who wish to present a different picture, those exploiting labour in the UK are not rich UK landowners, they are foreign gang bosses who "legally" contract labour in their country of origin then ship them to work in the UK on wages below the minimum wage in the UK. And according to EU Law nobody can do anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

Dave's "trite and boring litany" is right on the money when it comes to you, Keith. And you're a fine one to talk. I mean, how many times in the last few days have YOU trotted out this nonsense or similar in another thread?

"It is the only Jewish state.
Is that the problem?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:01 AM

Er, those wages are paid by employers in the UK, Teribus, not by foreign gangmasters, neither do the workers themselves insist on low wages. "Immigrants driving down wages" was just one mantra in the referendum out campaign. Just as big a lie as the £350 million a week bus campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

"those exploiting labour in the UK are not rich UK landowners,"
Stop inventing things - nobudy mentioned "rich" or "landowners" other than you
It is British firms who are hiring under the rate, the British establishment allowing to do it.
That the poorer people are going to the cheapest labour is understandably, but I have always found that is the wealthier customers who fight the hardest to get the cheapest deal
Cheap labour can be dealt with by enforcing a minimum living wage - instead, our mob prefer to target immigrants - much more vote-friendly
British workers looking for work stand to be the greatest losers following the Brexit fiasco - what's new?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:45 AM

So then, Keith, do you believe that anyone earning £18,000pa is wealthy as your post seems to suggest?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM

...because if you do, that is a different morality, if you don't we speak a different language and, in either case, I am pretty sure we occupy different worlds.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 12:10 PM

Been there with Keith on that one before, Dave. It's his trademark. He gets beaten in argument, waits a week or two then comes back to gnaw on the same well-chewed bone, hoping we won't remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:02 PM

Steve, I have repeated that fact and question because no-one has produced an explanation for a group of you always and only singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring the worse crimes of all its neighbours.
It is the only Jewish State.
Is that the problem?

Dave,
So then, Keith, do you believe that anyone earning £18,000pa is wealthy as your post seems to suggest?

No, but anyone earning £18 000pa would not be asked for a significant repayment.
They would only repay about twenty quid pa.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:05 PM

You two always get personal and nasty if anyone dares question anything you say.
You imagine your pronouncements should all be received with reverence and unquestioning acceptance.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:16 PM

Yes there plenty of people basing their campaign for leave on an immigration halt. So what? What a referendum decides is based on what's on the ballot paper, nothing more.

All kinds of different ways out of the EU were mentioned in the campaign. The Norway Option was in fact presented in the campaign as a possible settlement, specifically to appeal to people who were worried about losing freedom of movement.

There were leftwing leavers whose priority was freedom from restrictions on how emplyers could be regulated under EU law, and immigation wasn't their priority.

There is in fact no power under EU rules to prevent states requiring and enforcing minimum wage levels. The potential possibility of such restrictions would be a strong reason for justifying leaving memnership.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:17 PM

Jim, if you know of British firms hiring below the National Living Wage (or Minimum Wage for younger staff) you really should inform HMRC. Its their job to enforce this. And they won't go out and look.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:11 PM

NOT REALLY MY JOB BUT....there you go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:25 PM

No, but anyone earning £18 000pa would not be asked for a significant repayment.

Considerably different to your previous
The current system already provides free tuition.
Only those who become wealthy and successful as a result of their university education then have to contribute to it.

The system does NOT provide free tuition. It is paid for and if the student or his family cannot afford to pay they take a loan.. Anyone earning above £18000 is expected to start paying that loan off. Just who was being dishonest, Keith?

You two always get personal and nasty if anyone dares question anything you say.

Just what part of my argument do you find "personal and nasty". Personal maybe as I cannot help but point out we seem to be singing from different hymn sheets. Note that I have only ever said different. Not worse. It was not me who commented that someones morality was shit was it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:56 PM

I note none of those justifying tuition fees have indicated whether they'd be up for tuition fees for sixth formers, and if not, why not. I imagine it would be possible to demonstrate that people who've been in the sixth form tend to get more money in their lives than those who haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:09 PM

I suspect that those who go to school at any level get more money, Kevin. Maybe someone will recommend we get back to good old Victorian values and if we cannot afford to educate our kids we have to send them up chimneys.

:D tG

I suppose I shouldn't joke about it or it just may come about:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:13 PM

absolutely, and don't let them down...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:26 PM

I'm impressed Jim, at you reporting all those firms to HMRC. Or maybe HMRC are doing their job better than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:12 PM

"It is the only Jewish State.
Is that the problem?"

No. You simply don't understand. Now turn the bloody record over.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:01 PM

It is the only Jerish state.

So Professor, then it IS a theocracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:09 PM

As with many things, Keith is up shit creek without a paddle on this. I could suggest that we keep it on the six-day war thread. My fault for mentioning it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:09 PM

to be honest. i don't agree with hardly any of this stuff.

education is a right.

when i did my open university degree - it was because i was ambitious. brum education authority that i worked for paid all the fees. i studied stuff directly related to my job.

however when i went to summer school, i met intelligent pensioners who grew up in an era when university entrance was all but denied to working class people.

they were wonderful people and they are the happiest memory of my years of study. they were so motivated.
one guy was an ex miner. Welsh bloke 78 years old. plaid cymru supporter. Gwynn Philips. an extraordinary intellect with much to add to any conversation.

we need to educate our population. we need to produce a population that values education and enlightenment and aspires to it.
not for material advantage.

but , its like kennedy said, we should choose to go the moon because its hard.

the alternatives are clear enough to everyone - -you can see them every day on the jeremy kyle show. a deadbeat lumpenproletariat, addicted to drugs, alcoholics, unfit for work, totally aimless..

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:01 AM

"It is British firms who are hiring under the rate, the British establishment allowing to do it."

Ehmmmm No Jom, the British firm pay the going rate, the foreign gang boss hires "his labour" in their country of origin and pays them a rate that appears to be generous in the country of origin, the contract is signed in the country of origin which makes it legally binding. The labour gang boss then pockets the difference as inflated profit. You see Jom that is the downside of free movement of labour, you cannot enforce the UK minimum wage on cheap labour hired in Bulgaria, Romania, or elsewhere in eastern Europe. So so much for your:

"Cheap labour can be dealt with by enforcing a minimum living wage"

As for your last bit:

"British workers looking for work stand to be the greatest losers following the Brexit fiasco"

Pure supposition on your part, but that probably would be the case if Jeremy Corbyn carries out his unilateral declaration on EU workers rights to remain in the UK prior to Brexit negotiations taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:22 AM

you cannot enforce the UK minimum wage on cheap labour hired in Bulgaria, Romania, or elsewhere in eastern Europe. So so much for your:

"Cheap labour can be dealt with by enforcing a minimum living wage"

No one said it is easy to do, but you certainly can do it. As with any other firm it is bringing action against the firm operating in the UK - in this case the gangmasters or whoever - based on what the workers receive. That the workers are only entitled to a certain amount under their contract does not override the amount they are entitled to by Law.

However, the real difficulty is the 'self employed' category. If these Bulgarians are technically self employed then they do not have the right to a minimum wage. So the solution lies in dealing with the abuses of the self employed classification and that is not only (or even mainly) workers from the EU. As we remember, we had many deaths of Chinese workers harvesting cockles. We also have delivery services and similar exploiting it to effectively deny workers rights like minimum wages, sick pay, holiday and so forth. The problem can be tackled, but it is not very closely connected to free movement to and from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

I note none of those justifying tuition fees have indicated whether they'd be up for tuition fees for sixth formers,

I do not justify tuition fees, but we are broke and it mostly benefits the well off.
Only those who become wealthy and successful repay significant amounts.
Do they need handouts from those who never went to university.
With limited resources, there are more deserving cases.

Also we are producing far more arts degrees than the country needs.
That is a bad investment for scarce capital, and does not even promise a good future for the graduates.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:06 AM

Quite correct Keith, most of these "Arts and Social Studies degrees are an absolute sham. The country is awash with talking heads trying to justify their existence.    We need more producers and contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:34 AM

"Arts and Social Studies degrees are an absolute sham."
We are "broke" because those most able to make the greatest contribution to society use their wealth and positions to pay the least - our most influential politicians invariably come from that privileged group and have manipulated our society to serve their own interests rather than the needs of the people as a whole.
The greatest progress in education in my lifetime was when it began to move away from being a conveyor belt producing factory-fodder to a service providing an all-round knowledge which could make of fully sentient human beings
This reactionary garbage is a backwards step into the dark ages, designed to turn us into the automatons we were one regarded as by our "betters".
I am delighted to see that at last it is being challenged by someone who cares and who is being supported by young people who respect that compassion and understanding.
Talk about elite-driven cultural vandalism - you really couldn't make it up!!
This is real-life caricature stuff as spouted by the brandy-swilling colonels sitting in the armchairs of their Gentleman's Clubs pontificating about "these people who don't know their place in society" - the stuff Ealing Comedies were made of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:39 AM

"We need more producers and contributors."
Little point when we no longer have an industrial and productive base to contribute to and are reliant on buying cheap from abroad   
That is what the present system has reduced us to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:45 AM

If the only significant amounts repaid are from those who are "successful and wealthy", get it by taxing them more, and stop loading all those who aren't with burdens of debt.

There might be a few among those "successful and wealthy" who didn't go to university, but by definition they can afford to pay. Not going to university and starting work earlier will have been part of the reason they made it big, so they benefitted just as much as if they'd gone to university.

Going to university should be about developing yourself as a person, not about building a career. Very few of the things I was taught either at university or for that matter school ever proved that important in my work. What my years in the education provided at most was to help make me the person I am, including my ability to learn on the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 05:29 AM

Campaigning to make higher education little more than a training ground for industry is the ultimate in philistinism. If we're "broke and can't afford it," then explain to me why every major political party is tied to a pathetically low top tax rate (not suggesting one for you nineteen for me, but we do seem to have gone to the other extreme), why there is no appetite for clamping down on billionaire tax avoiders/evaders whether they're individuals or companies, why public schools are treated as charities for tax purposes and how we can afford a new railway costing tens of billions that will make it possible for wealthy business people to trim a few minutes off their journeys (which will enable them to spend more time with their accountants in order to work out how to pay even less tax). Etcetera. What kind of a country puts education on the top of its hit-list for cuts?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:39 AM

Arts and Social Studies degrees are an absolute sham

And how many of them have you studied, ake?

For my part I started a BSc in economics but as I have explained before it was cancelled due to lack of numbers and I didn't heave the heart to go though the entrance procedure for something else. I have however sat though and helped my children going through degrees. One BSc, One BEng and two BAs. I have witnessed the extraordinary amount of effort they have had to put in and stood by them amidst all the laughs, tears, celebrations and depressions. They all passed and have all done well in their own fields although two of them do not yet earn enough to pay off their loans.

Just who the hell are you to say that any degree is a sham? How about trying to educate yourself instead of slagging off those who already have?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:54 AM

One problem with high income rates is the people in the high rates are often in a good place to jack up their pay to compensate. It seems to me the two ways to get round that is to levy a sizeable wealth tax, and to impose some kind of maximum on all kinds of income, including the dodges they use by paying themselves in share options and so forth.

Being out of the EU could make it easier to do that kind of stuff, if we could get a government determined to do that - but of course it really needs to be done across the continent to be properly effective, and there'd be more chance of getting that going as members.

What's needed is another general election soon to get rid of this lot - which surely would happen now if people had another chance to vote

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM

Mr. McGrath, student loans are mostly paid by the taxpayer already.
They are written off after thirty years.

Guardian 3h ago,
"Student loan debt in the UK has risen to more than £100bn for the first time, underlining the rising costs young people face in order to get a university education."

""As fees increase this number will only go up, as more and more money is lent out each year. There is some cause for concern here, mainly for the government, as it is now widely accepted that the majority of graduates will never pay off their whole student loan debt before it is wiped off 30 years after their graduation.""

"Burnside predicted that over the longer term, student loan debt was likely to double to £200bn in six years."

"Loan repayments in the UK are dependent on graduates' income once they start working, with those earning more than £21,000 a year required to pay. Graduates earning at that level are obliged to repay 9% of what they earn above £21,000. However, after 30 years, any outstanding student debt is written off."
(Sorry. Dave's and my previous posts out of date!)

"Our student finance system removes upfront financial barriers for anyone hoping to study, and students only pay back what they can afford based on their income. There are now record numbers of young people, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds, benefiting from higher education."
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 12:08 PM

Mr. McGrath, student loans are mostly paid by the taxpayer already.

Which would mean that there is absolutely no use in the system of tuition fees and student loans. All it does is to frighten off many people from poorer backgrounds from going to university.

And yet the actual money paid is from taxpayers as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:55 PM

Its not all the time I agree with Keith, but here he is right, and, McGrath, it is people like you and Jim who frighten off people from poorer backgrounds from improving their lives with ridiculous scare stories. Almost as if you would rather the poor stayed poor. Fortunately quite a few of them don't listen, engage with higher education, and achieve more than their parents' generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:28 PM

Are the young shelf stackers and care skivvies that I see in my local town really achieving more than their father's generation?
I have spoken to quite a few who have been through the further education circus to find only, dead end, poorly paid jobs available.

They have been conned out of their self respect and the chance to contribute according to their ability.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:38 PM

I'm scratching my head here, having read recent exchanges through twice, wondering what Kevin has said that has raised your hackles. I can't see it. Apprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:06 PM

"Are the young shelf stackers and care skivvies that I see in my local town really achieving more than their father's generation?"
Of course they are not, thanks to the system you support
"it is people like you and Jim who frighten off people from poorer backgrounds from improving their lives with ridiculous scare stories."
These "scare stories" have all been back by links to their origins - press reports and national surveys - from the Tory Telegraph to the Guardian
It is people like you who are denying facts in defence of your system who are telling the porkies
Can't speak about Steve, but coming from the background I do, I don't even need these to know the realities of the situation - family members are faced with it when they wish to educate their children - they chose the wrong bubble apparently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:35 PM

I'd never make heroic claims about my background (my first ten years were spent in a slum with no hot water, a bog in a communal block outside the back door, tin bath on a Saturday night and beetles for company - but me and my brother were dead happy, especially on a summer's evening when we could go down the Irwell and chuck stones at the rats!) but it certainly kept me grounded and sharpened my antennae to recognise self-interested, forked-tongued Tory bastards when I see 'em. I didn't do a gap year but I worked for three months every summer for five years on the parks, and those blokes were the salt of the earth. "Tractor 'arold" deserved an honorary PhD and professorship for his swearing skills (taught me alI I know about the art), but he was such a warm-hearted man. They were paid a pittance but they were proud men, proud of their skills and proud of the public gardens they nurtured, whose qualities are now a distant memory thanks to cuts in local government spending. Set me up good and proper, they did. There was a Labour woman on Any Questions tonight (only caught a bit of it so may have got this wrong) who claimed she'd never knowingly kissed a Tory. I love that. There are no good Tories. There are softly-spoken Tories, reasonable-sounding Tories and people who have you scratching your head as to why they're Tories at all. But all Tories are in it for what they can get and we should never forget that. Otherwise they wouldn't be Tories. Set your antennae!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:37 PM

Sorry, Jim, I went off on one there. But I'm with you every step of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 09:48 PM

I cannot believe that anyone has ever been put off going to universities by calls for an end to student fees, and for a revival of the system of maintenance grants. (Tim Farron was right to see this as a higher priority than an end to tuition fees.)

What does frighten off many people, as it would have frightened me, is the thought at an early age of taking on a massive debt. Even if there is a case for saying it is a rational debt, given the alternative of facing employers who discriminate against non-graduates as a matter of principle, that fear remains. And there is the panicky prospect of failing to succesfully complete a course or failing in final exams, and being stuck with a massive debt for tuition and living expenses and no degree. (And many tens of thousands of students never get those degrees every year.)

And if in reality most of that debt will never be repaid, this policy doesn't even bring extra money into the public purse. The only people who get some benefit from it are wealthy students who would not gave got a grant. They still have the extra burden of tuition fees, but they have access to a loan for living expenses at reasonably favourable terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:33 AM

"
"Are the young shelf stackers and care skivvies that I see in my local town really achieving more than their father's generation?"
Of course they are not, thanks to the system you support"

Jim please explain.....as far as I can see , I am the only person here who does NOT support the system........bloody cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

Ake, trying to interpret two posts, it seems that you are saying that there are young shelf stackers and skivvies in your local town with degrees. If so, why are they still there? There are opportunities, and, at the risk of sounding a bit Tebbitt, they should be following them.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 05:14 AM

Ake does not believe in the mobility of labour, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:55 AM

"I am the only person here who does NOT support the system"
You support Trump - the corrupt leader of capitalism today
You support him to the extent of attempting to censor criticism of him,
You described opposition to him as "sedition" (that's not socialism, that's fascism - placing the state over the interests of the people)
You have spoken up for the dregs of the Capitalist system - Ukip
Your contempt for working people by wishing to turn them back into factory fodder is palpable
You blame the problems of the National Health Service brought about by decades of downgrading and underfunding as doewn to bed-blockers and misuse by patients.
You regard civil rights as, at best, irrelevant and unnecessary, but usually as working people's excuse not to live up to their responsibilities
Now you are the only person here defending the fact that working people have been excluded from higher education by describing essential parts of that education as "a total sham", thereby shifting the blame for the elitist situation of access to higher education from hwre it belongs (the establishment) on to education itself
You support working people as the rope supports the hanging man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:05 AM

Jom certainly doesn't Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 17 Jun 17 - 07:55 AM

Idiotic ideological twaddle Jom - Exactly what I'd expect from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:46 AM

you're wrong about arts and social science degrees Ake.
tions.

we need to work out what a good citizen is, and then raise awareness of good citizenship.
we need really deep analytical thought about the way our society functions.

i think it was harold wilson that coined the phrase galloping pragmatism.

isn't this really whats at the root of all this bollocks about brexit. may and johnson have reversed their opinions. people near corbyn seem to think he's for out - but given his young following daren't say it. they make it up and change tack with every change of wind. would you really be surprised if Corbyn came out strongly either way?

its being put forward as something that we, the great uninformed, should discuss.
this is bollocks. there must be a definitive answer as to whether to be in or out - based on our culture, future economic and political policy   and aspirations.
there must be a right or wrong answer, and i don't believe i'd take the word of anyone who answered questions with abuse and regularly demonstrated scorn for his fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 09:09 AM

The honest answer of Remainers who are now for accepting Brexit would be "We believe this is the wrong thing to do, but we and you are stuck with the choice made. There is no way you can undo the harm you have done, or have a second chance. We now just have to make the best of a bad job." But somehow they never say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 01:55 PM

I have, Kevin! Not only that, much as I think it wrong and will set the economy back years, I think that not only can we make the best of it but it has some unexpected positive effects. Such as the destruction of UKIP, the loss of support for the extreme right in Europe and the resurgence of honest and caring politicians here.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:29 PM

Not me McGrath, I think it should be fought. And I am not interested in "making the best of a bad job", I will continue to fight it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:51 PM

"Idiotic ideological twaddle Jom - Exactly what I'd expect from you."
And unquaified denial on behalf of the establishment is what I expect from you
You really are cappdoffer "'m'ludder" aren't you and you run with the "risht" people
Hope you and Ake will be very happy together
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:22 PM

Who is Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Kevin is McGrath of Harlow, David.

I agree with you about fighting it. It's looking a bit like a lost cause, and there is zero appetite for a repeat referendum, but things are going to go very badly for us in the next eighteen months. I suspect that the only decent deal we could get would be shudderingly similar to the deal we already have. Let's hope that the election fiasco has managed to evaporate away most of that silly Tory hubris around a hard brexit. We live in an era of rapid changes, so who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:39 PM

But it's never said directly by politicians who backed Remain, but now seeking to implement Brexit - ."We are doing the wrong thing because you ordered us to do it - and you can't change your minds now, even if you wanted to.You made your beds, now you have to lie on it."

When you lose an election you have to accept the result is binding, you may even say you deserved to lose. And you organize for a different verdict next time. And in a democracy there always is a next time.

Accepting the result of a referendum as final may make political sense in some situations - but the suggestion that somehow it is undemocratic who call for, or to provide, a chance to think again, is ridiculous. There was nothing undemocratic in the people of Denmark and Ireland having a chance to change their minds on the issue of joining the EU. The undemocratic thing is to rule out of court another chance to vote on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:44 PM

The referendum was totally skewed in favour of the leavers. Had they lost 52-48 instead of winning, there would almost certainly be another refendum imminent. Voting to change the status quo is easy. Persuading people that what we have is as good as it gets, after forty years of rather stale bureaucracy (I'm the first to admit it) is far harder. A stay vote was always going to be thoroughly reversible. The leave vote is pretty irrevocable, just needing the details to execute it For that reason alone, a referendum based on a simple majority was simply wrong and, as it turned out during the campaign, thoroughly undemocratic. The threshold for such an apocalyptic change should have been stiff. I'd say a two-thirds majority on a minimum 75% turnout. Had the leavers won on that basis there would be no squabble. Not from me, and, I predict, not from David C or Kevin. But just watch the hawks here telling me what rubbish I'm talking. But wouldn't they just love the trade unions to be bound by such rules?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:11 AM

How could in in/out referendum based on the need for a 65% majority ever be described as democratic?

Should either side have won on that basis there would be no "squabbles", there would be a riot!


Game over chaps, time to pull together or we will all live to regret our childish attitude. Our opponents in the echelons of the EU must be rubbing their hands at our disarray.
We are leaving the EU, Mr Corbyn has been opposed to it all his life, he should offer to assist in preparing for the negotiations to try for the best possible deal and use his influence on young voters against the wrecking tactics of the media and ideological myth spinners.
At present I still think we shall have no option other than to walk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:20 AM

". But wouldn't they just love the trade unions to be bound by such rules? "

This is unbelievable, don't you realise that the "Unions" are no longer a political force, here or in any other developed country. You are living in a mythical past, the time of mass employment and "organised labour" have long gone. We need to adapt to the future not live in the past in all matters political

If only the "liberal left" were as keen on organisation of social issues they might find a tenantable home.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

he should offer to assist in preparing for the negotiations to try for the best possible deal

But the point is there is no agreement on what the best possible deal looks like. Trade and immigration are a part certainly. But there is much else, which is where the hard, soft, red-white-and-blue, open, closed, business first, jobs first, and - the DUPs preference - 'sensible' come from. As I have said before, what is best for small independent businesses is not necessarily what is best for large national businesses and that can differ again from what is best for international businesses. Sometimes these are all aligned and we can sensibly talk about what is best for business in that situation. But no-one has the faintest idea how to address the cases where they are not aligned.

Then 'what is best for Britain' and what is best for business are not synonyms. Take air quality: Britain is frequently brought to court for failing to meet the EU standards. So we leave and are no longer bound by those standards. Is that 'best for Britain'?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 06:18 AM

I think we are wrong to leave the EU but a second referendum would have it's own issues.

Firstly, it would be political suicide for whoever calls it, particularly if the result was reversed.

Secondly, the first one was so divisive it culminated in the murder of a young woman and a massive rise in hate crimes. A second would be no better.

Finally, I have always been against referendums. The government should do what they are paid for. Dodgy Dave fucked up and could not even face up to his decisions when it became apparent his gamble had not worked.

I really do think we have no choice but to make the best of it and, as I said earlier, it has already had some unexpected benefits.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:03 AM

Sorry Ake, we are regretting it. There is no way things can be made any better, except by reversing or mitigating the brexit process. Without that there can be no "pulling together", our lives have been well and truly stuffed, and you cannot expect us to simply accept that and show goodwill towards those who made that decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:20 AM

There doesn't seem much prospect of another chance, but that's a political decision, based on the claim that it would be undemocratic to have one. But that just doesn't make sense. Central to the notionf democracy is that we always have a right to change our minds, and vote again.

There are regimes where a once and for all choice is set in stone. We call them dictstorships.

When we buy something, we can always change our minds and take it back, so long ss we don't wait too long. It's set in law. If we get married, we can decide it was a mistake and get divorced. If we decide to get divorced there is a decree nisi to give us a chance to change our inds, before tge final decree. If we elect the wrong government there will always be another election. Typically if we toss for something we'll mak it best of three.

And as has been said, if the vote had been the other way there'd have been demands for a secibd vote - Nigel Farage promised this when the thought the vote had gobe against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 12:12 PM

And Kevin once we have left the EU we can always apply to join it at some point in the future. Of course if we did that it would be under vary different terms than the last time. There would be no UK rebate and we would have to ditch the £Sterling and take on the Euro.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 12:45 PM

And it would still be fantastic value. People have no conception of what a good deal we have had, like half price membership of an exclusive club.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 01:57 PM

We could indeed, and in time I suspect we may well.

It would be a lot easier to give us a chance before we go to decide whether we still wanted to leave or not. We won't, but as I said, that's a political decision based on the need to patch up differences within the parties. My point was, this has nothing to do with the dishonest nonsense about a second vote being in some way anti-democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:31 PM

The decision to Leave has been made - live with it.

As for your exclusive club Mr Carter - It certainly is and always has been - a club run for the exclusive benefit of France and Germany - we are better off out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 03:56 AM

"live with it."
We also have to live with the fact that Blunderwoman is in the process of making a pact with a party that has
TERRORIST LINKS and creationism, anti abortion and homophobia on their agenda - A great leap forward for mankind
Certainly puts Corbyn's supposed links with the IRA on the shelf
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:27 AM

The EU provides fantastic benefits for UK citizens. Horizon2020, Erasmus, Single Market, Free Movement. And it provides links to other countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain, from which we can learn much.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:24 AM

"The EU provides fantastic benefits for UK citizens. Horizon2020, Erasmus, Single Market, Free Movement. And it provides links to other countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain, from which we can learn much." - David Carter(UK)

Correction to the above:

1: Under it's rules Horizon 2020 and Erasmus only provides benefits to some UK Citizens - not all.

2: As far as the single market goes we buy more from them than they do from us so on balance of trade it works out negatively for the UK. This is exacerbated by the restrictions it applies to our trade with the rest of the world - a much larger market than the EU

3: Free Movement that too has it's pros and cons - more EU citizens work in the UK than UK citizens work in the EU.

4: So "France, Germany, Italy, Spain" are the only countries we have something to learn from? What is it they have to teach us? The world has even more to teach us don't you think?

The EU is corrupt, unaccountable, protectionist and introverted. We as a nation are far better off trading with the rest of the world after all we did that quite successfully for a few centuries before we became part of that great con sold to us as a trading partnership - "The Common Market".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:30 AM

We will indeed leave, Teribus. But that is based on a cynical political decision taken in order to patch up splits in the main parties, not on a principled committment to democracy. Rather than representing that it represents a choice to limit democratic choice.

Which of course won't stop it going ahead. But be honest about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 11:46 AM

But that is based on a cynical political decision taken in order to patch up splits in the main parties,

If one offered a referendum they all had too because people wanted it.
It did not seem to matter because they were all sure the people would vote to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:25 PM

MGOH - I am not in the least bit interested in how you care to dress it up. The following are the facts of the matter.

Gordon Brown - Labour Prime Minister promised the British electorate a referendum on EU membership when the EU Commissioners tried to push through the Treaty of Lisbon that France, The Netherlands and Ireland rejected - it was later introduced in a drastically amended format via the back door, using technicalities that meant it did not have to be unanimously accepted by the Council of Ministers.

This caused unrest and unease in the UK's political parties and press. So in the 2010 General Election David Cameron promised the British electorate a referendum on EU membership. The Conservatives did not win a majority and their Coalition Government partners, the Lib-Dems insisted that the promised referendum was dropped, this caused further division and discontent, the electorate of the UK felt that they had been cheated.

After winning the 2015 General Election David Cameron made good on his promise of a referendum on EU Membership and the Electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were asked whether they wished to remain in the EU or whether they wanted to leave it - plain and simple - THEY chose to LEAVE.

And those who voted leave Kevin could not have cared a toss about "cynical political decision taken in order to patch up splits in the main parties" - The vast majority of those who voted were NOT even members of any political party, they merely stated THEIR personal preference.

As far as limiting democratic choice goes Kevin, nothing but nothing is more limiting than rule by diktat by the unelected EU Commission.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM

The vast majority of those who voted were NOT even members of any political party, they merely stated THEIR personal preference.

The vast majority, on both sides, were ill informed and cynically manipulated. This resulted in a rise in hate crime and the death of a young woman. Pig sticker general should have done what he was paid to do and govern the country rather than gambling that the referendum would have resulted in a remain vote. It is clear that most people were voting against the establishment rather than against the EU.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:37 PM

You miss my point. I'm not talking about the decision to hold the referendum.

I'm talking about the decision to present it as undemocratic to hold another referendum to give people a chance to change their minds if they wished, or to confirm their decision.

The fact that the margin of difference was relatively narrow, and that it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted, would have justified that, especially in face of the fact that this was a vote with major constitutional impact, depriving all British citizens of significant rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

Absolutely spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 04:42 PM

How many referendums do you want Mr McGrath...to suggest that we keep holding them until the result that you want turns up is undemocratic in the extreme and a serious case of political manipulation.
what would happen if the same result immerged from the ballot? Or an even closer result?

You seem to have lost your usual grasp of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 05:05 PM

How many referendums do you want on Scottish independence, ake? Or have you now given up all pretense of being anything but a right wing nut job?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 05:48 PM

People are allowed to change their minds every five years about the rather fundamental issue of who governs us. In the case of Blunderwoman, at even shorter intervals, at her misguided behest. Democracy is predicated on the ability of people to change their minds. What are you worried about, akenaton? Here's the problem for you brexiteers. You know that you won by a very slim margin. You know that you won on a low turnout of fewer than three-quarters of the electorate. You know that the non-voters far exceeded in numbers your slim majority. You know that the arguments, the posturings and the balance of power have all shifted significantly since the vote to leave. You are scared of losing another vote so you resort to specious claims that we are undemocratic. If there were to be another vote, and remain won, that would be rock solid democratic. Wouldn't it? One more thing. We've already had a second referendum and I didn't hear you complaining. It was held on 23 June last year. The first referendum was held in 1975 and we overwhelmingly voted to stay in. Sure, things changed between 1975 and 2016. But I'd say that things have changed at least as much in the last twelve months. We're supposed to be negotiating but our politicians haven't a bloody clue what they're supposed to be negotiating about. The party in power, who didn't expect to be negotiating at all, are in serious left-right disarray. The EU is hardening against us rapidly, having seen the weakness bestowed on us by the utterly feckless Theresa May. If you can't see that the call for a radical rethink is utterly democratic, then I don't know what I should be calling you. Whatever is, it won't be nice and you'll deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that, aken. Seems a reasonable way to go.

As I pointed out, in pretty every other aspect of our lives where it is physically possible, we ensure that we've a chance to change our minds.

And once again I'm not actually calling for a second vote, because it's not going to happen. But I saying that this has to be recognised as a political decision, and that this nonsense about there would be something anti-democratic in having another referendum, or that people calling for it are being undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

"The fact that the margin of difference was relatively narrow, and that it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted, would have justified that, especially in face of the fact that this was a vote with major constitutional impact, depriving all British citizens of significant rights."

THE EU REFERENDUM: (In a nutshell)

Number of local areas declared: 382/382
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
***Turnout: 72.2%****
Rejected Ballots: 25,359

With a voter turnout of 72.2% Kevin that means that 27.8% of the electorate did not cast their votes or exercise their right to vote - their choice - the ONLY votes that count in any election or referendum are the ones that are cast.

Now then Kevin:
37.42% of the total electorate voted Leave
27.2% of the total electorate did not vote at all

Would you care to revise your rather idiotic claim: it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted

"Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that"

Really Kevin? Where and when has that happened then?? An actual real life example would be good start, after all we have only held three nation wide referendums - in all we only got one crack at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:15 AM

Doesn't work Mr McGrath, Steve reckons we need a 60% majority to remain in order to reverse the result?
Additionally after "best of three" it would become "best of five", Seven, Nine.   A referendum is what it says on the tin...a one off for better or worse.
When it came down to the wire, the UK public voted out and out we must go.    A bit of unity in negotiation and less carping by the remainers would assist our cause, anyone would think you people actually want the country to fail?
Get behind the Brexit team and get the best deal possible....if that turns out to be impossible through EU intransigence, we can do it easily on our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus - PM 
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM 

"The fact that the margin of difference was relatively narrow, and that it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted, would have justified that, especially in face of the fact that this was a vote with major constitutional impact, depriving all British citizens of significant rights."

THE EU REFERENDUM: (In a nutshell)

Number of local areas declared: 382/382
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
***Turnout: 72.2%****
Rejected Ballots: 25,359

With a voter turnout of 72.2% Kevin that means that 27.8% of the electorate did not cast their votes or exercise their right to vote - their choice - the ONLY votes that count in any election or referendum are the ones that are cast.

Now then Kevin:
37.42% of the total electorate voted Leave
27.2% of the total electorate did not vote at all

Would you care to revise your rather idiotic claim: it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted

MvGrath can defend himself but he made no such claim. Calling things 'idiotic claims- which werent made is unwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM

The number who didn't vote far exceeded the slim majority. That was the point Kevin was making. Do read what people say before you jerk your knee, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

Ehmmm DMcG & Shaw the germane points made in that post of mine that you quoted

1: "the ONLY votes that count in any election or referendum are the ones that are cast."

2: Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%) - Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)

If you wish to drag the members of the electorate who for whatever reason did not vote into the equation - please remember that with equal validity those numbers can be used by both sides:

You claim that only 37.4% of the total electorate voted to leave and that 62.6% did not.

Equally true is the fact that 34.8% of the total electorate voted to remain and 65.2% did not.

I'll stand by what I said the point being made by MGOH is irrelevant and idiotic (Doubt that then red point 1: above AGAIN)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:29 AM

The vast majority, on both sides, were ill informed and cynically manipulated.

That is your opinion of the British voter.
Presumably they can not be left to choose their own government either.
Democracy must go.
Only people like you should have a say.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:57 AM

I think there may be a case for a minimum educational level to qualify.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 05:38 AM

As Steve said, what I said was that the margin of victory was much smaller than the number of non-voters. That is a factual statement. I believe it is also relevant, and that it reinforces the view that a second vote would be reasonable.

While I disagree with those who oppose such a vote, I would never call that "idiotic". It is perfectly reasonable. What does seem unreasonable is the claim that it would be undemocratic to have such a vote, and to present that as a matter of principle rather than as a political decision, in the same way that a decision to have a second vote would have been a political decision.

I believe that Ireland and Denmark, where that political decision was made the other way, have as least as much right to be seen as democratic countries as the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

I try not to get dragged into specious arguments so will just say

(a) I am well aware of your first point
(b) I understand perfectly well we do not know how those who didn't vote would have voted if it was compulsary, for example
(c) neither of those points have the slightest bearing on what McGrath said.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

Cut away all the spin - you have a referendum - you either vote or you don't - only the votes cast are the ones that matter and affect what decision is made. The views of those who do not vote have no relevance - their choice to disenfranchise themselves, nobody physically prevented them from voting. The margin of the victory in a democracy is also irrelevant a majority is a majority in this particular case it was roughly 52% voted leave 48% voted remain - stop moaning, live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

That is your opinion of the British voter.

No it isn't. It is my opinion of the shitty media and the misleading claims of politicians.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:44 AM

If the politicians sought to mislead Gnome then they shouldn't be trusted to do anything. Just the fact that our "professional politicians" (i.e. professional in as much as they have never held down a real job in their lives) were largely for staying in the EU was a good enough indication that the right course of action was to Leave. Especially as the only reason the "professional politicians" wanted to remain was so that they would have access to a far better gravy-train to wedge their snouts in to round off their glorious careers - The Kinnocks are a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:46 AM

No it isn't. It is my opinion of the shitty media and the misleading claims of politicians.

No it wasn't.
Your stated opinion was the voters are ill informed and manipulated.

I think that you are being elitist and undemocratic.
I think that you are ill informed and manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:17 AM

"crisis, what crisis?"
Same thing Keith
If the press consistently slants the news to suit its proprietors as it invariably does, we end up being ill informed and manipulated.
If we decide to take the tiny handful of newpapes (Guardian and Indi being reasonable examples - the leftie press according to you and yours) twots like you acccuse us of being "ill informed and manipulated."
Catch 22 writ large
A feer press is a distant dream reserved for a truly democratic future
HOW the MANIPULATED MEDIA WORKS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:43 AM

" The only reason the "professional politicians" wanted to remain was so that they would have access to a far better gravy-train to wedge their snouts in to round off their glorious careers - The Kinnocks are a prime example."......~:0)    Hee hee!

Absolutely 100% correct Teribus, couldn't of put it better meself!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:52 AM

Your stated opinion was the voters are ill informed and manipulated.

Yes I did. But I do not blame the victims, I blame the perpetrators. Who do you blame?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 08:48 AM

It is very easy to appreciate why those who agree with vote are opposed to a further vote. That would have applied whichever way the vote went. In both cases that would have been a political decision, and I imagine it might have been claimed that a further vote would be a rejection of democracy.

And in both cases that claim would have been unsustainable. An essential aspect of democracy is the principle that people have a right to change their minds.

And could I urge anybody posting in his thread to cut out the insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 11:08 AM

Yes I did. But I do not blame the victims, I blame the perpetrators. Who do you blame?

I do not believe the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated.
Not even if I get outvoted by them, like you have been.
So, no blame from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:43 PM

Er, Teribus, your 03.05 am post and your subsequent ironic one calling for us to cut the spin, both aggressively stated as ever, were attempts to deflect from the uncomfortable fact that you misread Kevin's post about the majority being far smaller than the number of non-voters. I don't care what you incorrectly think about those millions of non-voters (we've been there and I'm not going over that again), but I do care about your bad habit of missing the point, failing to acknowledge it then getting insulting about it. There was nothing idiotic in what he said, nothing. Maybe just something you didn't happen agree with.   

And Keith:

"That is your opinion of the British voter.
Presumably they can not be left to choose their own government either.
Democracy must go.
Only people like you should have a say."

Yes they can choose their government. They can also change their mind about the government they choose. What part of this business about democracy allowing you to change your mind are you not understanding, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:49 PM

Of course they can change their mind Steve, or we would always have the same government.

But, what has changed about the EU?
Has it become a better or more successful organisation since last year?
I think it has got even worse, and polls suggest that more want to leave now than they did last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 01:42 PM

Ehmmm Shaw I didn't misread anything - no get it into your thick head once and for all - Votes that are not cast DO NOT COUNT They are irrelevant - So to draw ones attention to the fact that 12.9 million of the electorate didn't vote and that there was only a 1.27 million more votes for leaving rather than remaining is rather idiotic.

By the way Kevin where are the examples of the norm being "best out of three" that you mentioned?? He's gone awfully quiet on that - Shaw as our "serial gobshite" have you anything to say on the veracity of that statement of MGOH's - you seem to have something to say everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:19 PM

I do not believe the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated.

So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful and that the media did not try to sway the result the way their foreign owners wanted them to?

Unbelievable.

I will just start and you can fill in the rest

Dif...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:24 PM

DARK MONEY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:18 PM

Reread your own post of 6.41 pm on 19 June, Teribus. It contains a clear-as-a-bell misunderstanding of what Kevin said. We are all capable of misunderstanding, but you compounded your error by calling Kevin's quite factual statement "idiotic." You've done a fair bit of blustering ever since, intended to cover up your error, but you have failed to recant, which is what you clearly should have done. And no, I won't let it drop. Not until you stop attacking reasonable people on the back of a stupid error on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 10:14 PM

Best of three hasn't been tried in regard to referendums, and I didn't actually say it had been. In both cases where there was a repeat referendum on EU membership, in Ireland and Denmark (in both cases after further negotiation had produced responses aimed at meeting some of the reasons people were deemed to have voted against), the second vote went the other way, and there was no third vote.

Given the strength of feeling shown by Brexiters I think it would be reasonable, in the event that a second vote went for staying in the EU, to allow a third vote to decide. In the event that the second vote was for leaving, it would be reasonable to accept that. And the same would apply to Brexiters if the third vote went against them.

But of course this isn't going to happen, and I haven't been arguing for it to happen. But the fact that it is not going to happen does not indicate a respect of democratic process, but in some ways an evasion of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

Especially as the referendum was skewed in favour of a permanent exit (no matter what Teribus says - any reapplication to join, extremely unlikely in any case, would result in our enduring far worse terms than now and would take donkeys' years to bring about) as opposed to what would have been a thoroughly reversible (you bet!) remain decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:46 AM

OK Kevin here is the full exchange:

1: What Akenaton said:
akenaton - 19 Jun 17 - 04:42 PM

How many referendums do you want Mr McGrath...to suggest that we keep holding them until the result that you want turns up is undemocratic in the extreme and a serious case of political manipulation.

2: Here is what YOU said in reply:
McGrath of Harlow - 19 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that, aken. Seems a reasonable way to go.

Customary: usual · traditional · normal · conventional · familiar · accepted · prevailing · routine · fixed · set · established · confirmed · everyday · ordinary · common · stock · well worn · time-honoured.

3: You were then asked by me:
Teribus - 19 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

"Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that"

Really Kevin? Where and when has that happened then?? An actual real life example would be good start, after all we have only held three nation wide referendums - in all we only got one crack at it.

By the way Kevin in the cases you mentioned in Denmark and in Ireland - their Governments were bullied into holding the second referendums by the EU Commission and the only thing that changed was the question asked on the ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

Dave,
So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful and that the media did not try to sway the result the way their foreign owners wanted them to?
Unbelievable.

You are!
Every election campaign and every jury trial is like that.

Each side has the opportunity to challenge the claims of the other side, and the electorate are quite capable of weighing the claims and counter claims.

Do you really think that only you are clever enough to cope with an adversarial system, and us ordinary poor dears are just hopelessly gullible and confused.
You really are elitist.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:24 AM

Do you really think that only you are clever enough to cope with an adversarial system

Of course not. Just like I do not think that I have never been mugged because I am clever enough to avoid it. You are blaming the victims while I am blaming the muggers.

You really are elitist.

Now who is getting personal and nasty? :-)

Teribus - It is blatantly obvious to anyone else that Kevin's 'best out of three' was not intended to be a solution to the current argument.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

Tell me Gnome what does "customary" mean in your universe? I know what it means in plain simple English. And "Best out of three" is not, and never has been, used to decide any election, referendum or plebiscite issue in history so the following statement is patently idiotic and a complete and utter load of bollocks to boot:

"Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that" - McGrath of Harlow - 19 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:41 AM

Dave,
So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful

Another referendum or election campaign would be just the same, so we had better stop having them and just let clever people like you choose how we are governed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:31 AM

Yes please, Keith! Stop having any more referendums as soon as possible :-) I have never come across an election where as many misleading statements were made as in the referendum campaign so you are not comparing like with like.

You carry on taking Kevin's remark literally, Teribus, and I will carry on treating it as I am sure it was intended.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:23 AM

Good article in The New European

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:39 AM

Dave,
I have never come across an election where as many misleading statements were made as in the referendum campaign so you are not comparing like with like.

Really!
I fear that statement just shows that you are not nearly as clever as you think you are. Most of the misleading statements made in every election must go right over your pretty little head.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:50 AM

I fear that statement just shows that you are not nearly as clever as you think you are. Most of the misleading statements made in every election must go right over your pretty little head.

More personal nastiness eh, Keith?

Diffe...

Oh, you know how it goes.

I think you will find however that I have never claimed to be any more clever than anyone else. In fact I have always made a point of saying that I know very little and the older I get the more I realise how little I know. Maybe I was stupid to not believe that all the money saved by Brexit would go to the NHS or that it would be of great benefit to everyone. Only time will tell and by then it will be too late.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:02 AM

I think you will find however that I have never claimed to be any more clever than anyone else.

I think you will find that you claimed the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated, unlike yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:06 AM

Gnome - excellent rule in communication and interaction:

Say exactly what you mean - And mean exactly what you say

Your interpretation of what YOU THINK was meant can only cause confusion, misunderstanding and trouble. IIRC I think in days gone by that was why French was chosen as the language of diplomacy - because it was a far more specific and accurate language to put your meaning across.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:05 AM

I think you will find that you claimed the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated, unlike yourself!

I have never claimed that. Please provide a link to where I said it. I just said the electorate were misinformed and manipulated. I have not once excluded myself from being one of the electorate. I still don't know if I was right to vote the way I did and probably never will.

Yes, Teribus. I interpreted it as a joke. You didn't. Many jokes are based on double meanings. I suppose only Kevin knows whether he seriously meant we should hold 3 referendums every time.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 08:19 AM

Lizzie to take over

Couldn't be any worse

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:08 AM

I said it was customary in the sense that that is the normal way we settle this kind of problem in daily life. I did not feel it necessary to elaborate, since it is pretty evident that it's not common practise in relation to elections. It seems to me a fair way to respond to the anger many people would feel if their initial victory was reversed.

Having several votes in a row is of course common practice in many electoral systems - for example in France, where a two stage presidential election has recemtly been followed by a two stage parliamentary election.

Admittedly Brenda from Bristol would be enraged, but it seems to me that putting up with extra votes in order to reach some kind of consensus or at least shared acceptance of the final result would be worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:32 AM

I just said the electorate were misinformed and manipulated. I have not once excluded myself

We will have to remember not to take seriously anything you say then.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:34 PM

We will have to remember not to take seriously anything you say then.

Please feel free. Anything to make you feel superior :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM

If you are ill informed and manipulated, we all are.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:03 PM

....superior that is!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:22 PM

Knock it off, Keith. You're being stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:06 PM

So, now my morality is shit and you are superior to me. And you accuse me of being personal and nasty. Good job I am not easily offended.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:35 PM

Who would you rather have in your corner? Jezzer or Bozzer?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:43 AM

Dave,
So, now my morality is shit and you are superior to me.

No. You said that you were ill informed and gullible. I said that if you are so ill informed and gullible WE ARE ALL superior.

Not just me. (I am not elitist.) Everyone. According to your own assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:00 AM

You said that you were ill informed and gullible.

No, I said we were all misinformed and manipulated. Why do you lie about what I said when it is only a few posts above? Do you not realise that everyone can see what you are doing?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:12 AM

Ill-informed and misinformed are entirely different things, Keith. I suppose that, when it comes to the interpretation of plain English, you're just uninformed. Or I guess it could be one of those days when you're simply not in form. Just an informal criticism, you understand, for your information only.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:15 AM

No.
You said, "The vast majority, on both sides, were ill informed and cynically manipulated. This resulted in a rise in hate crime and the death of a young woman. "

I find that an arrogant and elitists statement to make, and that is why I pursued it.
You clearly did not include yourself whatever you later claimed.

I thought you might eventually admit it was a silly thing to say.
Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:17 AM

Before you accuse me of lying again, this is when you said it.
19 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 05:49 PM

Why on earth should it be seen as elitist and arrogant to say that the campaign by both sides in the referendum were ill-informed and cynically manipulated? I doubt if there are very many serious commentators who would not agree with this, whichever side they wanted to see win.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 06:20 PM

I did indeed say that, Keith. I used the term ill informed instead of misinformed by mistake so I do apologise for that. I have since used the term misinformed. I have always used the term manipulated and never said anything about gullible. You made that bit up. You also made up that I did not include myself. I always have and you will note that even in your attempt to muddy the waters I used the term "The vast majority, on both sides". Everyone else can see what I have said. You are using your usual tactic of misrepresenting but not making a very good job of it. Also good to see that you are demonstrating how not to personal and nasty by suggesting that everyone is superior to me. Well done!

Off to Scotland some time tomorrow to have even more fun than I am having here so may not post after mid-day tomorrow. Feel free to continue being as personal, nasty and misleading as you like. It seems that most people have your measure now.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 06:25 PM

Bet it's a bloody sight colder than here, Dave. 36 degrees today and humid to boot! 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:18 PM

Insofar our sources of information are dishoest and manipulative, we are indeed both illinformed and misinformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:01 PM

Why on earth should it be seen as elitist and arrogant

To some people, anyone with a functioning brain is an elitist.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:21 AM

Sorry, Greg, think you have it wrong. Elitist and arrogant is used to describe anyone who dares to question anything that their betters tell them. It is neither personal nor nasty of course ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:35 AM

Kevin,
say that the campaign by both sides in the referendum were ill-informed and cynically manipulated?

Such campaigns always are, but that was not what was said.
Dave claimed that the electorate are inadequate, so should not be trusted to vote.

Dave, I have always used the term manipulated and never said anything about gullible

I quoted you enough times. You have to be gullible to be manipulated by misleading campaign claims.

Insofar our sources of information are dishoest and manipulative, we are indeed both illinformed and misinformed.

I disagree Kevin. Each side can and does challenge the claims of the other side.

The jury or the electorate have all the arguments and counter arguments from both sides to put in the balance.
Are you really arguing that the electorate are too ill informed and too easily manipulated to vote, or juries to decide?
What do you advocate instead.
The Star Chamber?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

Could you show us where Dave used the term gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

Rag, he did not, but he did say that the people are "manipulated" by misleading campaign claims.
That requires us to be gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:21 AM

So, in a nutshell, he did not use the term gullible.

You, nor I, are qualified to re-interpret what someone means.

It would be beneficial to all if you refrained from doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:37 AM

You would have to be gullible to be manipulated by misleading claims Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:45 AM

In YOUR interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:04 AM

You could be manipulated unwillingly without being gullible. Or you could be manipulated because you'd been misinformed, ill-informed or are uninformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:31 AM

Spin it as you may, Keith. I have not said the things you accuse me of saying. I have never said anyone is gullible. I have never said the electorate are inadequate. I have never said that I am any better or worse than anyone else. In anyone's book that means you have, at best, misrepresented what I did actually say or, at worse, deliberately lied about it. The only thing you can find is an occasion where I used ill informed instead of misinformed. That was a mistake on my part and I accept that I used the wrong term.

Feel free to carry on digging. I shall see how deep you have got later.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 10:09 AM

Dave, I quoted verbatim what you said about it, and only gullible people could be manipulated by misleading claims in a campaign.

I did indeed say that, Keith. I used the term ill informed instead of misinformed by mistake so I do apologise for that.

I accept your apology for falsely accusing me, calling me a liar over it, and for inciting Steve to join in the attack on me for something that I did not do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 10:26 AM

I will ask again, where has Dave used the term "gullible"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:39 PM

Read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:45 PM

Former UVF member and supergrass Gary Haggerty has just spent today in court confessing to his terrorist crimes , including 200 counts of murder – it took two hours to read out the charges and for him to respond "guilty".
Given the DUP's past involvement with the UVF and the efforts that were made to link Corbyn with Sinn Fein and The Troubles, where does this leave Blunderwoman May?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:52 PM

Should read 200 charges, five murders
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:42 PM

As far as I am aware professor Dave has not used the term "gullible"

If I am incorrect please provide the quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM

Still in charge Jom, still in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:55 PM

NFI Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:10 PM

Insofar as there is any difference between being gullible and being manipulated I suppose that lies in the implication that a gullible person is particularly easy to manipulate. That is a very subjective distinction - in practice it would come down to whether someone is more easily manipulated than I think I am myself. How long is a piece of string?

If the alternative to being gullible is to be cynical, there is something to be said for being gullible. But the fact that all of us are gullible compared with someone else implies that in virtually all circumstances we should not be held too rigidly to our initial decision. For some reason it seems to be felt by some people that this should not apply in the case of a referendum in which we have relinquished significant rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 07:27 PM

I presume that NFI indicates "No f*****g idea.

I thus presume that you cannot answer the question with any honesty.

I am not at all surprised with this response, of all the posters on this site, honesty has never been your forte.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:33 AM

You presume wrong.
Here is a history lesson for you Rag.
When Johnson compiled the first dictionary, he somehow overlooked and omitted the word "gullible."

Subsequent compilers, out of respect for the great man, also omitted the word and to this day it appears in no dictionary.

So, is it a word Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:50 AM

"Subsequent compilers, out of respect for the great man, also omitted the word and to this day it appears in no dictionary."
Not really -t was omitted from later dictionaries because it was considered a "low word" - a corruption of "cull" - not overlooked, rejected
"no dictionary."
You mean it was omitted from all Johnson's dictionaries, of course!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

The word gullible was not recorded until 1818, many years after Johnson's death.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:52 AM

The fact remains that Dave did not use the word gullible and as normal you cannot accept that you were wrong to accredit him with it.

Thus you will continue to prevaricate ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:05 AM

The fact is that I never quoted him saying it. I quoted what he said exactly and put it in quotes so there could be no mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:16 AM

The term "Gull" (simpleton - fool) is dated from somewhere between 17th-19th century by the Dictionary of Historical Slang, but seems to have overlooked Thomas Dekker's 'Gulls Hornbook" (publisheshed sometime in the mid 1500s
An 1872 edition of the Hornbook is one of the prides of our book collection
The term was used by Shakespeare and is said to have medieval origins - possibly Celtic (Welsh or Cornish)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:21 AM

The first mention of the term gullible can be found here, not from Dave.

"Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

Dave,
So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful and that the media did not try to sway the result the way their foreign owners wanted them to?
Unbelievable.

You are!
Every election campaign and every jury trial is like that.

Each side has the opportunity to challenge the claims of the other side, and the electorate are quite capable of weighing the claims and counter claims.

Do you really think that only you are clever enough to cope with an adversarial system, and us ordinary poor dears are just hopelessly gullible and confused.
You really are elitist"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 09:52 AM

us ordinary poor dears are just hopelessly gullible

That's only one of your sterling qualities, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 10:34 AM

The first mention of the term gullible can be found here, not from Dave.

Yes. And I did not suggest that Dave had ever used the word, so what is your point Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 11:23 AM

"Yes. And I did not suggest that Dave had ever used the word, so what is your point Rag?"



"No. You said that you were ill informed and gullible"
22 Jun 08.43


That seems pretty clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 01:16 PM

It is clear.
I did not claim those words were used. Nothing is in quotes.
I had already quoted the actual words, putting them in quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 01:24 PM

You can claim whatever you like professor, any rational person can see that you lied.

Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

No rational person would say I have lied.
You are just desperately trying to catch me out, and failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 03:09 PM

I'm starting to think that The Professor is the long lost brother of Donald Trump - pretty much the same mentality & other attributes pertain to both.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:48 PM

I quoted you exactly professor. No if's no but's no maybe's


"No. You said that you were ill informed and gullible"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:19 PM

"I had already quoted the actual words, putting them in quotes."

Anyone remember many times Keith said this during his sorry Wheatcroft saga? Keith thinks he can say something once then change it later as much as he likes whilst still claiming that he's "telling the truth." You're well sussed, Keith! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

Professor's just relying on "alternative facts" - a thorough Trumpian.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM

Ah yes Shaw of course the "Wheatcroft Saga" where it was you IIRC who were shown quite clearly to be a liar:

SHAW'S WHEATCROFT SAGA

How Steve Shaw "makes up shit" and what an acknowledgement and correction of an error looks like:

On the 10th December, 2014 the following text was faithfully and accurately posted by Keith A of Hertford in a thread titled "WWI was No Mans Land" from an article by Geoffrey Wheatcroft that appeared in the Guardian, 9 Dec 2014

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about "lions led by donkeys", that nevertheless made a mark."

This thread was closed on 18th December but the discussion continued on another WWI thread titled "I am not an historian but ..." in which Keith A made a passing reference to the passage quoted above on the 17th December, 2014

The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as "fraudulent."

Steve Shaw questioned this and within an hour of Steve Shaw posting Keith A of Hertford replied as follows:

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:22 AM

Ok Steve. [The acknowledgement]
The Guardian printed a piece, by a Guardian correspondent, that described Taylor and Clark's work as "vulgar" and "fraudulent." [The correction]

IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED BY:

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:25 AM

The Guardian printed a piece, by a Guardian correspondent, that described Taylor and Clark's work as "vulgar" and "fraudulent" respectively. [Further correction making clear what adjective applied to which author's work]

After the above acknowledgment and correction had been given in the "I am not an historian but ...." thread the complete passage from Wheatcroft's article was posted five times which when you couple that to the speed of Keith A's response and correction blows the Shaw theory of it being deliberate misrepresentation clear out of the water - and yet Shaw to this day still attempts to convey the idea that no acknowledgement and correction was ever made, which of course is a downright LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:34 AM

I did not claim those actual words were used. None are in quotes.
I had already quoted the actual words, putting them in quotes.
I did nothing wrong.
Why are these people constantly out to get me?

I am away for a while.
Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:47 AM

With the fairies, presumably.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:49 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:49 AM

The reason is simple Keith, while Teribus, yourself and a couple of others continue to expose the contradictions in "Left liberal" ideology, you will be a target for cowardly lies and misrepresentation.

If only we could occasionally have a serious and honest discussion here, this place would be more positive and less aggressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 05:58 AM

One out with the fairies and one comedian. And he wants a serious discussion. Blimey, you couldn't make it up. Except that they both do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 06:36 AM

Its very clear professor, you posted:

"No. You SAID that you were ill informed and gullible"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 10:39 AM

So, anyone want to update me on what has been happening while I have been north of the border then? Save me trawling the acres of crap. I see Nod has now joined in with Winken and Blinken. I have an idea what he will be on about. Keith still making up what I said or meant or both?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 02:09 PM

Save your time, Dave, The thread is doggy paddling in circles.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 04:01 PM

Thanks, Kevin. I will take your advice.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:26 AM

I guess it is not just me being inferior then...

Katarina Barley, leader of the German Social Democrats (SPD), called for a second Brexit referendum this week, arguing British voters were misinformed about the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.

"When the referendum was held, nobody really knew what it would be about – not the British people, not even the political class," Barley said during a TV interview.

"A lot of people incorrectly thought that Britain could get a deal like Switzerland or Norway without the inconveniences, without accepting the rulings of the European Court of Justice, without free movement of labor. Now they know that this isn't the case and they should be asked to vote again on this."

From here. Just in case anyone thinks I am making it up :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:06 AM

Yes well done Gnome, let's be dictated to simply to satisfy the desires of those who voted to Remain and we'll just ignore the majority who voted Leave - that's your form of democracy.

By the way Gnome what punishment and how much should the UK pay for having the temerity to vote to Leave Germany & France's cosy corrupt little club?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:15 AM

Have you not been following this at all, Teribus? I was against the first referendum and think a second one would be even more divisive. The point I am making is that it is not just me who thinks the public were misinformed and manipulated. And, yes, before you ask and to save you going back a few posts that is on both sides and includes me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 10:17 AM

Misinformed on what?

Manipulated how?

Nobody had to tell me anything for me to understand how corrupt the EU is.

Nobody had to tell me anything about the absolute inability of the EU to reform.

Nobody had to tell me of the incessant attempts of the EU to form a political Union that the British electorate was never asked to join.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 10:49 AM

...and nobody had to tell me that unregulated immigration is a disaster waiting to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:12 AM

Ah, it's Monday, the Union Flag Y fronts have been on the line so these two are refreshed and ready to be belligerent and bullying again.

If it wasn't so predictable it would be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM

People who think that nobody has to tell them things are lifelong ignoramuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:47 AM

Of course they didn't Teribus. You know all about everything. Us mere mortals do not always have such perfect perception though so we need to rely on reasoned arguments from both sides to help us decide which course of action would be best. All we got was rhetoric such as yours from both sides. It must be nice to be infallible but, sadly, we don't all have that power. Although, some of us can keep an open mind.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:55 AM

You'll always need someone to tell you things Stevie boy, like how to tie your shoe laces......Oh I forgot, you're a sandals man...that'll be handy for you...eh? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM

Ah, the lifelong communist who supports nationalism and then votes for the right wing Tory party who have opposed even the idea of Scotland even having another say. No need for you to try and make jokes, ake. Everyone laughs at you anyway.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:44 PM

This is what happens when you vote if you're one of those who nobody can tell anything except what's already ideologically-fixed in your head. You get promised that the NHS will get £350 million a week that you won't get. You get promised subsidies for farmers that match EU subsidies that farmers won't get. You get promised control over our borders that you won't get because more than half of immigrants come from outside the EU anyway and we can't do without most of the ones who do come from the EU. You get promised that you'll get a really good trade deal that you won't get. You get promised a cheap brexit which you won't get because we'll get no deal at all unless we pay a huge exit fee. You get promised that winter fuel payments and the triple lock will get nobbled which you won't get because of a grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian backwoodsmen (with apologies to John if he's listening in). Jeremy Corbyn gets ridiculed for having a magic money tree then the Tories - guess what! - find a magic money tree to buy off the DUP shitbags with a massive bung. That's what you get when you declare that you don't need anybody to tell you stuff. You get taken for a ride by a party that acts solely in its own self-interest. What you won't get is any of the things you were expecting to get.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:48 PM

Why do Brexiters assume that a second referendum would reverse the outcome of the first? And then have the nerve to say that that is about respecting the democratic right of the people to choose?

If they believe that what people want is to leave the EU, they should welcome the chance to confirm and affirm that.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:26 PM

I agree with that. And my automatic response to anyone who crows about the "democratic will of the British people" is to remind them that just over one-third of the electorate are dumping us out of the EU with consequences not just for said electorate but for generations of young people to come who will suffer the consequences of this catastophe long after most of this electorate have passed on. I'd also remind them that properly-informed democratic decisions can be taken only after fair, open, honest debate. Hands up all those who think that the referendum campaign fitted that particular bill. Having argued all my life against referendums I find it hard to campaign for another one, though, in the framework of principle defined by previous referendums, there would be nothing at all wrong in holding another. It would be the third, not tne second, by the way. I didn't hear many leavers campaigning against holding the recent one, the second EU referendum......

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

We will have to agree to disagree over this, Steve. I don't believe a second referendum will do anything but divide the country still further and give Farage and his ilk more ammunition.

What should have happened is the government should have done their job properly. The rules of the referendum should have been a 2/3 majority at least. The fact that it was only advisory should have been adhered to. There should have been strict rules on campaigning honestly. When it did go wrong pig sticker general should have admitted he gambled and lost and said he could not accept such a close result rather than being allowed to fall on his sword.

But none of that did happen and the Tories are now paying the price. We should now concentrate on getting the best deal possible and hoping that the resultant swing to the left across Europe will be of benefit to everyone.

Just my 2p of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 04:11 AM

No you do not need to be told everything if at first you have been taught to think for yourself. What you do is observe and see the difference in what is said and what is done.

Maastricht: Maggie got us a rebate, which Blair then handed away a chunk of in a deal that required that the EU would reform it's CAP, we certainly lost that chunk of our rebate, did the EU reform it's CAP - did it F**K. The reason? because French "farmers" would object.

Budgets - tell me why the EU has not been able to sign off on audited accounts on it's expenditure since God knows when? After all we all have to do that every year, your local council has to do it every year, the company you work for has to do it every year, your Government has to do it every year - But somehow when it comes to the unelected EU Commission they mysteriously get a free pass.

By the way Shaw - The claim I was responding to was that "we" (The electorate) were misinformed and manipulated - my post asked for specifics which seem to have gone unanswered.

1: There was no promise on £350 million for the NHS - if that is the way you read it then you are simply a fool who does not understand plain English.

2: Has there been any sort of announcement on what rate of VAT will be levied in the UK post Brexit? Any claims by anyone at all that it will be scrapped? What the F**k do you think pays for the CAP hand-outs? The UK is the second largest net contributor to the EU's coffers after Germany. Which means Shaw that we put in (Through revenue raised by VAT) more than we get back, so if VAT remains the same and Government spending stays the same then whatever we got via EU payments can continue at the same level, plus there is a surplus. You stating, with what appears to be absolute certainty, what will happen and who will not get what at some point in the future is simple baseless, guesswork and scaremongering. Who are you trying to manipulate and misinform?

3: How many "refugees" are flooding into Europe each day Shaw? Blair & Co admitted that their "open door" policy was one of the biggest mistakes that they made (Among Many!!). Once in Europe Shaw and once registered in any EU country Shaw what do they become? We have no control over who gets into Europe, and as members of the EU we are compelled to obey the rules regarding free movement. The EU cannot close or control it's borders (Physical impossibility) - but we can we live on an island. Control over your borders means that you let in who you want in, who you need in. It seems pretty much a one way street according to the figures 3.2 million EU workers in the UK to 0.8 million UK citizens working throughout the other member states (Why is that Shaw? What is the attraction to working in the UK over working in other EU countries?). The UK Government has made a pretty clear and definite statement regarding the rights of EU citizens currently living and working in the UK - tell me Shaw what statements have the EU made about UK citizens living and working in the EU?

4: "You get promised that you'll get a really good trade deal that you won't get." - More guess work Shaw? You do not have the slightest inkling of what any future trade deal might be, so please do not insult our intelligence by trotting out definite statements on things you know absolutely nothing about. Trade is trade and here are the very well documented facts regarding trade between the UK and the rest of the EU:

a) The UK buys more from the EU than they buy from us. Under those circumstances who gets hurt most if there is no deal? Rhetorical question Shaw it's the EU - If there is no deal German car manufacturers take a 20% hit, damage the German economy and the EU is basically f**ked.

b) The UK is the world's fifth largest economy and the EU's second largest net contributor. That latter bit is important because it means when we leave, if EU funding is to be continued without cuts, somebody has to step in and make up the difference. Who is that going to be? Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and France are all precarious and are all Euro currency countries. It will be interesting to see how readily the French will take to President Macron's reforms - my guess is that they will not, just as they baulked at Hollande's.

c) At the moment the UK does more trade with the rest of the world than it does with the EU, especially when you hive off the "goods through Rotterdam" scam that falsely inflates our trade with the EU figures. It is easier for one single country to negotiate international trade deals than it is for a huge block as complex and as "protectionist" as the EU - ask Switzerland.

5: "You get promised a cheap brexit which you won't get because we'll get no deal at all unless we pay a huge exit fee." - More Shaw guess work - you haven't a clue - if agreement is not reached then it costs us nothing, we simply walk away. I do not think that that will happen because in truth the EU needs a deal as much as, if not more than, we do. Ever heard of mutual interest, or common sense for that matter Shaw?

6: "You get promised that winter fuel payments and the triple lock will get nobbled which you won't get because of a grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian backwoodsmen" - Means testing of "Winter fuel payments" did not appear in the Queen's Speech Shaw, neither did any mention of abandoning the triple lock on pensions. On the latter there was never ever any mention of OAP being reduced, the triple lock was based on:

a) Rate of inflation (Currently 2.9%)
b) Retail Price Index
c) Guaranteed 2.5%

What that last bit c) gives you is an ongoing ever increasing pension bill irrespective of whether the cost of living has gone up or not - that is unsustainable. If you drop that and inflation is 0 then why should pensions go up?

7: When the Labour Party wrote it's 2017 Election Manifesto it did so knowing that the Party did not have a snowball in Hell's chance of winning the election. The promises made although they claimed to be costed, were not. Jeremy Corbyn was, quite rightly ridiculed for having a magic money tree. The UK was going to have fund this had they won and implemented their promises. This "bung" you are talking about £1 billion over two years. Compare that to Corbyn's throw away of abolishing University Tuition Fees and cancelling Student debt that would amount to £35 billion + and then £35 billion a year thereafter, because let's face it Shaw somebody has to pay for education. Fully costed Manifesto my arse, the clowns didn't even factor in the cost of Brexit.

8: I have got news for you Shaw, something I learned from simple observation over the years. Since the advent and predominance of "professional politicians" on the political scene in the UK - Every political party acts solely in its own self-interest - you can bank on it - Labour is no different.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

No you do not need to be told everything if at first you have been taught to think for yourself. What you do is observe and see the difference in what is said and what is done.

Wow! I am impressed Teribus. You managed to complete your diatribe just by observing the difference between what is said and what is done. You had no help at all in compiling any of your 8 points? How do you know they are all true?

Or is what you say and what you do two entirely different things?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:02 AM

As to answers on how the electorate were misinformed and manipulated here is an article from a right wing publication that agrees that we were

Analysis in the Torygraph

There are plenty more of course but at least you cannot accuse this one of left wing bias.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:13 AM

"You had no help at all in compiling any of your 8 points? How do you know they are all true?"

The floors yours Gnome - Eight points challenge and refute what I have said, if you can. If not then your rantings are just so much hot air and noise signifying nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

I am not refuting anything but the fact that you say that you do not need to be told anything, Teribus. Explain how you make decisions based only on seeing the difference between what is said and what is done.

Floor back to you petal.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

Just put this up elsewhere - thougt it might be of interest here
Nice twist on Britain's "ruling elite" style of democracy yesterday.
In order to have an overall majority, the Tory Government had done a deal with the DUP (linked to Loyalist terrorism) where it had bunged £Billion of the taxpayers money to Northern Ireland in order to gain a majority - bet they don't declare that on their election expenses
One of the conditions imposed on Britain by the DUP is that the Security Forces do not have to face trials for crimes they are accused of committing
Democratic Britain is now dancing to the tune of a Party implicated in terrorism who is demanding state terrorist ativities are immune from prosecution
Rule Britannia eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: JHW
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:37 AM

Terrorism aside I don't see how the Tory so called government is allowed to buy votes with public money.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:45 AM

I also gather that they must have found that magic money tree that they said does not exist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:50 AM

Jim
"Democratic Britain is now dancing to the tune of a Party implicated in terrorism who is demanding state terrorist ativities are immune from prosecution
Rule Britannia eh?"

and Corbyn could not ever be guilty of such a sin?

https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/corbyn-terrorism-and-intervention/

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 07:17 AM

"and Corbyn could not ever be guilty of such a sin?"
Corbyn has explained his position at length and it has been dropped from the political agenda
The Media made much of Corbyn's supposed connection with Sinn Fein during the election, yet Labour still managed to wipe out the Government's overall majority - the electorate came to terms with the accusations so they are a dead letter .
Beside the point anyway
That is a little different from being governed by a Government that is relying on the support of a party with terrorist links who have not only blackmailed a billion pounds out of taxpayers money for their support bu they have also forced an agreement that members of the military who might be guilty of murder and torture will not be tried and punished for their alleged crimes.
You may add to all this (as The Times says this morning) - we ain't seen nothing yet.
If the Government continues to need DUP support they will have to agree to further demands - this is an open-ended deal
The golden rule has always been "never pay a blackmailer" - yet this is exactly what our Prime Minister has done
Britain has been put in hock to a Party with terrorist links and have allowed them to milk the British taxpayer
This would be a stupid thing to do without the fact that the D.U.P. leader is under examination for the misuse of Northern Irish taxes
Ms Mayfly has earned the title 'Blunderwoman' with full honours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:48 AM

"Labour still managed to wipe out the Government's overall majority"

According to John Cutice that was done by Corbyn &Co buying the votes of the young with an empty promise that if he had won would have cost the British Taxpayer over £35 billion per year. To prevent the threat of that and the rest of Corbyn's wastrel programmes I'd say the £1 billion over two years is cheap at twice the price. Apart from that it is worth it just to see the smirks wiped off the faces of the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg and Huw Edwards who now appear nightly complete with visages similar to people who are chewing wasps - Priceless.

Also please remember that the only reason this works for the Conservatives is because members from another political party with even closer ties to an even deadlier paramilitary group of terrorists in Northern Ireland fraudulently stand in elections having no intention of representing their constituents at Westminster - still take the money and reap the expenses though.

Apart from a commitment to the 2% of GDP to NATO I see nothing about any amnesties although that particular move is long overdue - always though it a bit one sided that only the sins of certain paramilitaries can be pardoned - ALL OR NOTHING - LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. It's called equality in the face of the law Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:48 AM
"Also please remember that the only reason this works for the Conservatives is because members from another political party with even closer ties to an even deadlier paramilitary group of terrorists in Northern Ireland fraudulently stand in elections having no intention of representing their constituents at Westminster - still take the money and reap the expenses though"

The truth of the matter

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:07 AM

5: "You get promised a cheap brexit which you won't get because we'll get no deal at all unless we pay a huge exit fee." - More Shaw guess work - you haven't a clue - if agreement is not reached then it costs us nothing, we simply walk away.

You accuse me of guesswork then you say the same thing as me - we no pay, they no deal. 😂 But if you really think that no agreement and walking away will cost this country nothing, then I think you need somebody to spend time telling you stuff, preferably not one of those little Englanders who you've clearly idolised in the past. And, presumably, if someone once taught you to think for yourself, then somebody clearly did tell you stuff... you're a bit weird really, aren't you? As for the rest of what you appear to regard as my speculations, well we'll see. I'd say that your optimism about our going it alone is infinitely more speculative. And farmers have pointedly not been promised those subsidies after 2020. Well, except in Northern Ireland! As with the NHS £350 million, the money simply won't be there. Check it out. And the end to the triple lock and the means testing of winter fuel payments WERE In May's manifesto, but have now been ditched as part of the grubby DUP deal. I suppose she gambled in the fact that they were bloody unpopular measures anyway, but they were still picked from the magic money tree, weren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM

Thanks for ten year old article Raggy, much appreciated - If correct then that has made me feel much, much better. They are however still paid and they do still claim expenses........ So what's your point?

Oh and Shaw very pleased to read that you have now downgraded your definite statements on Brexit to mere speculations now - a move in the right direction. The big difference between my speculations and yours is that yours are ideologically based rantings and mine are based on common sense and fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:25 AM

The big difference between my speculations and yours is that yours are ideologically based rantings and mine are based on common sense and fact.

And, presumably, on the fact that you don't need to be told anything because you already know everything based on the observation of what is said and what is done?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

"According to John Cutice "
As you seen into typos - I think you mean John Curtice
So we have a young electorate moronic enough to be "bought"
Better - and better, but it does give you a chance to sidestep the buying the loyalty of a party with terrorist links via a bung fro taxpayers money
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:34 AM

My point is your post was misleading.

To quote one of your questions to Steve back to you:

"Who are you trying to manipulate and misinform?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:43 AM

I note Teribus assumes that a second referendum would be likely to reverse the result of last year's - "I don't believe a second referendum will do anything but divide the country still further and give Farage and his ilk more ammunition."

A second referendum that confirmed the result of last year's would pretty well silence those who are calling for it to be reversed. The reason it is opposed is that those against any such referendum feel no confidence in the possibility of a second victory for Brexit.

The trouble is, that cannot be seen as consistent with the stated demand that the will of the British people should be respected. In truth, itrepresents a firm determination to ensure that that does not happen.
.........
Yet another example of how the ability to correct ourselves is almost universal - any time we set up a new password on the Internet we are required to print it in a second time. We all make mistakes sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:50 AM

Any one can see that I did no such thing. I regard them as rock-solid certs. I said that it was you who downgraded my remarks to mere speculation, not me, and let me tell you summit else: your optimism about this country post-brexit has nothing to do with common sense or fact. We are heading into unknown territory, not the brave old pre-1973 rose-coloured illusory world that you mistakenly think we're going back to. This is a very different country now. And we are in big trouble, thanks to you and the rest of the 38%.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:52 AM

That was a quote from me, Kevin. My point is that whatever the result of any such second referendum it will be as divisive, if not worse, than the first one. It will also bring Farage and his ilk out of the woodwork for the duration of the campaign and I would not wish to inflict that on anyone. Even if it were to reverse the decision, and I believe that would be better than leaving, I am not sure I could stand another round of hate.

Purely my own opinion of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:54 AM

I will forgive you for confusing me with Teribus though. I suppose I should be flattered that you thought I was an all knowing super being that has nothing to learn

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 11:01 AM

I see we're getting the same old nonsense about "buying portions" of the electorate. So who bought off the council house owners by giving them the right to buy (only the nicest places, of course) at massive discounts? Who sold off the public utilities at disgracefully low prices in order to turn the middle classes into a "share-owning democracy" (aka a Tory-voting, self-interested democracy)? What government dares to shit on the elderly (who turn out to vote)? Is it not just a teeny-weeny bit possible that investing in education, thereby developing to the full the talents of our young people instead of putting off the poorest via the prospect of huge debts, might actually be a good thing? A tad better perhaps than selling off the family silver on the cheap to keep the masses voting Tory, wasting a bloody fortune on more runways, HS2 and an utterly useless nuclear "deterrent?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 11:21 AM

During the election Blunderwoman said she would make no promises on repairing the damage that her party had done as "There is no money tree"
Amazing how one suddenly sprouted up when it came to paying bungs to keep her party in office - contempt for the British people or what?
Lovely cartoon in today's Times showing May and Foster sitting under a tree sprouting money - may looking the other way while Foster pockets the cash
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

Trying to move us on a bit from the trenches we have been fighting over and making no progress ...

Grant Shapps and David Davis both blame the fact the Conservatives do not have a majority on a poor manifesto and in particular a few own goals in it. I grant them that without those own goals they may well have won enough seats to get some sort of majority, even if it was no better than they started with. But I also think if they don't look at the things like how the demographics have changed, and put all their effort into writing a better manifesto rather than thinking about what their real purpose as a party is (as people like Chris Patten were saying over the weekend), they are doomed to failure.

So as a Labour supporter, I am quite happy if they blame everything on a poorly thought out manifesto and the thinking stops there.

What say you?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 02:52 PM

Sorry about that, Dave. As I said, we all make mistakes sometimes.

Yes, I'm sure there'd be people screaming blue murder if Brexit lost. But if they won, I reckon things would calm down. But I think I'm corrept to interpret the fixed opposition to a second vote by Brexiters is based on a reasonable assumption that they would lose such a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 02:58 PM

No problem, Kevin. I make mastikes as well...

I think the Brexiteers would be screaming blue murder from the outset if another was called. Only opinion but based on what I have seen so far. Having gone through an election, the referendum then another election in a short space of time I, and many I know, are politicked out. I am not sure I could face another barrage of it!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 03:37 PM

Well, you'll probably have another General Election very soon. I haven't yet got round to taking the poster off my front door, and I've half a mind to leave it there for next time.

In France they've had four national polls in the last few months. If you don't like elections you're living in the right country here.

I can't see why people should get more upset at elections than they do about the constant stream of big sporting jamborees - World Cup, European Cuo, Test Matches, Rugby Six Nations Cup, Olympics, Wimbledon... Now that maybe is overkill.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:05 PM

Just going back to this:

"We will have to agree to disagree over this, Steve. I don't believe a second referendum will do anything but divide the country still further and give Farage and his ilk more ammunition."

I wasn't arguing in favour of a second referendum. It isn't going to happen so I'm not going to take any sort of stand on it. I'm saying that there would be nothiing undemocratic about holding one. A huge amount has changed since last June's vote. And I think there's a danger in running scared of referendums/elections..

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 08:26 PM

But did you not, in the past, post that you thought that any referendum was wrong because politicians should decide everything? The implication being that the electorate (I take that to mean me personally) are too ignorant to decide on such issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:41 AM

I am opposed to referendums because I believe that we elect politicians to power in order to make decisions about matters that are riddled with complexities. It's their job to get themselves fully informed about those complexities and they have access to sources that enable them to achieve that that the rest of us don't have access to. However, we live in a referendum-riddled world whether I like it or not, so I'm saying that, in that context, another vote would be no more undemocratic than the last one. It's a nonsense to suggest that it's undemocratic to give people a chance to change their minds. Democracy is predicated on that right. But I've given up calling for one and take on board the view that another vote may not be a good way to go. Not sure about it but it's a valid view. It's far more likely in any case that brexit will collapse all by itself. We may not need another vote to get it jettisoned.

And less well-informed is a better term in this context than ignorant. That's despite the fact that a referendum campaign is certainly an opportunity for truly ignorant people to
put their ignorance proudly on display.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:02 AM

There's nothing wrong with referenda when they are conducted properly
Unfortunately where the Murdoch-type press has the most public say on the issues and turn them into 'populist campaigns', they cease to be democratic.
Ireland has them fairly regularly - the most positive win recently was on same sex marriage
Past referenda on abortion have fallen because of the overbearing use of spiritual blackmail by the church.
Last time they even threatened to excommunicate politicians who voted "the wrong way" - Ireland remains somewhere in the early part of the twentieth century on this issue.
We'll see what happens with the next one - maybe the implications of clerical abuse will finally strike home
Referenda would not be necessary if politicians told the truth and did what they promised
They don't so they are, but they desperately need removing from the influence of the agenda-driven media
Electoral democracy in Britain has become exposed as a total sham
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:58 AM

Stanron The implication being that the electorate (I take that to mean me personally) are too ignorant to decide on such issues.

No such implication from me. The point is that our elected representatives should do the job they are paid handsomely for with the help of their army of paid advisors.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:59 AM

Could have been lifted straight from the Daily Heil

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:26 AM

"Could have been lifted straight from the Daily Heil"
I found it an extremely funny piece of satire
Wish there was more of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

You will probably enjoy this if you haven't already seen it as well then, Jim.

Enjoy

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:58 AM

"we live in a referendum-riddled world" - Shaw

No we don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:13 AM

Could someone explain to Terikins that the world does not consist only of Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:21 AM

Just some of the referenda worldwild

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:22 AM

Worldwild indeed !!

It should of course read world wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 12:57 PM

Ooooh Raggy referendum riddled world - in just 60 out of what? 196 countries - riddled indeed!!!

Besides that Raggy why do you lot of the rabid left object to the political process in other countries? Their choice isn't it? Or is that yet another freedom you want to see removed?

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" - George Orwell, Animal Farm - the book reflects events leading up to the Russian Revolution of 1917 and then on into the Stalinist era of the Soviet Union. Orwell, a democratic socialist, was a critic of Joseph Stalin and hostile to Moscow-directed Stalinism, an attitude that was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:01 PM

Care to point out just where I have objected to the political process in any other country ..............

.......or is this yet another knee reaction with no thought given to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:13 PM

why do you lot of the rabid left object to the political process in other countries

Just who is of the 'rabid left' and what is rabid about it anyway? Who has objected to anyone else's political processes? What freedoms has anyone suggested are removed? My only point is that the government should do what they are paid to do - govern! I don't think that is a particularly radical point of view.

I think you are spending too much time observing what people do and not enough time actually listening to what they say.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:54 PM

Since when has the word "world" always literally signified only the planet earth?   Ever heard expressions such as "he lives in a world of his own," "the world of opera," "she thinks the world of me," "we are worlds apart" and so on? When Cilla sang You're My World was she telling you that you were her third rocky planet from the Sun with a diameter of 8000 miles and a surface of three-quarters water? In this country we have had three referendums in five years. Tell me what other five-year period has had three referendums. In the UK, therefore, we live in a referendum-riddled world. I don't give a monkey's flying fart what goes on in other countries. This country is my context and this country is what I meant, clear to all bar morons. If you want to take me on, Billyboy, for chrissake try to find something worth arguing about first.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:00 PM

I thought I'd introduce "the rabid-left" to balance Jom's references to what he terms "the rabid-right" - and by God did it prove to be good bait - easier than catching mackerel.

Nice to hear that you are all for referendums Raggy - we had one recently in the UK and voted to Leave the EU. It would appear that some of your chums don't accept the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:17 PM

I thought I'd introduce "the rabid-left" to balance Jom's references to what he terms "the rabid-right"

Ahhh, OK. So you just copied someone else.

It would appear that some of your chums don't accept the result.

Who would that be then, Teribus? Or can you not tell the difference between do not accept and do not like?

I thought that a man that already knows everything without having to listen to anyone else would have done better than plagiarism and straw man arguments. Just goes to show that at least I can still learn...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:18 PM

Less than 38% voted to leave. Happy to correct you. And who isn't accepting the result? Where's your evidence? There is no question of not accepting the result. It is what it is. On the other hand, you are showing your personal democratic deficit by refusing to acknowledge that people are entitled to change their minds, an absolute tenet of any system that calls itself a democracy. Whilst I'm not necessarily campaigning for a rerun, I am wondering what you're scared of.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:37 PM

"people are entitled to change their minds"

Of course they are entitled to change their minds - having submitted our official notification to leave under Article 50 - Once the UK has left the EU the people are entitled to change their minds by applying to join the EU - nothing stopping them from doing that as far as I can see - Start your campaign today Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:37 PM

Disingenuous rubbish, and you know it. Leaving then reapplying then rejoining would be an impossibly uphill struggle ending up with far worse terms than we have now and we wouldn't get there in my or your lifetime. A vote to remain is, on other hand, totally reversible. A remain vote in a second referendum would be easy to reverse in bureaucratic terms, no harder than what's happening now and on the same timescale. And you can bet your life that you super-democrats (who can't bear the idea of another vote) would be angling for a rerun straight away. In fact, your hero Nigel said as much just before the last one when he thought he was going to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:52 PM

"Nice to hear that you are all for referendums Raggy"

Would you care to provide any evidence for me ever suggesting such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:31 PM

I should add that your response was yet another knee jerk reaction.

So no surprise at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:00 PM

"Leaving then reapplying then rejoining would be an impossibly uphill struggle ending up with far worse terms than we have now and we wouldn't get there in my or your lifetime." - Shaw

Impossibly uphill struggle Shaw? Why at present we are 100% compliant aren't we - more so than most member states.

Why would the terms be far worse Shaw? Would those fair-minded souls in the heart of the EU want to humiliate and punish Britain once again?

We had the referendum we voted to leave and we are better off by far getting out of it - good riddance.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:00 PM

And yours Raggy are merely the reactions of a jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:09 PM

So, not able to respond to my query.

Quelle Surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:05 PM

"=was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War"
Orwell spent most of his time in Spain in bars interviewing troops on their way to the front
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 09:04 PM

I can quite understand how Brexiters, aware that the result in the referendum, in which the 38% of the electorate who voted for Brexit outnumbered the 34.7% who voted to remain, is not guaranteed to be repeated in another referendum, are firmly opposed to any such thing. I suspect that if the boot was on the other foot, the winners would want to hold the win.

But in neither case would it be honest to say that this was on account of any democratic principle, rather than as reflecting the human instinct to hold on to your gains. The refusal to admit that represents another very common human instinct, the one to be dishonest, to others, and also to ourselves.
..............

If in fact we wished even at this point to reverse our decision to leave the EU, it has in fact been made clear to us, for example by the Lennon quoting president of the European Council, that this would be perfectly possible. But even if "we" (meaning the British public) wanted to, we will not have that choice.

It's a matter of "you made your own bed - now you must lie on it". Though I imagine most of us prefer in real life to remake our bed, if we've done it wrong first time and it's not comfortable. The saying is absurd , when you think about it for an instant, like the one that says "you can't turn back the clock". Tosh. I do it every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 02:38 AM

That maybe true Carroll - but the man clearly had Stalin's ticket marked and saw the monster for what he truly was.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:37 PM

Disingenuous rubbish, and you know it. Leaving then reapplying then rejoining would be an impossibly uphill struggle ending up with far worse terms than we have now and we wouldn't get there in my or your lifetime.

Unfortunately, that is only too true.
We are already seeing the difficulties being put in the way of our leaving after we have joined.
I can only hope that we make a success of getting out, and re-establishing our sovereignty in good time.

In context of the meaning of "world" you wrote This country is my context and this country is what I meant, clear to all bar morons so why not use the word 'country' in the first place, rather than 'world'. You expound at length in the 'Oxford comma' thread about the need for meaning to be clear, so presumably, in this case, you were looking to be obscure.
And what is wrong with the good word 'except'? 'Bar morons' sound like the thick crowd you would meet in your local pub!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:57 AM

If you people who quote Orwell ever stretched your minds to actually reading what he wrote, you would be aware that he was addressing his writings to all extremist societies - not just those on the 'so-called left
The right use Orwell, even though much of what he wrote was directed at them -
Animal Farm in particular, in particular was directed at extremism and the eroding democracy that was occurring throughout the world - the destruction of his dream of Socialism in Russia by Stalin and the rise of extreme Capitalism in Germany - which he regarded as two sides to the same coin
'Down and Out' and 'Wigan Pier' were about exploitation and extreme poverty and its effects on humanity in Britain and Europe
'Aspidistra' presented the lengths intellectuals and dreamers were forced to go in order to survive in a class-divided society.
'Catelonia' was a journalistic exercise rather than an analysis of what was happening in a Europe where Capitalist Fascism was on the rise and what was (or was not) being done to stop it - it was limited by the fact that it was superficially researched (Orwell had a shoddy reputation among those who were actually fighting Franco for being a drunk and a dilettante).
You self-imposed, selective illiterates really need to read what you quote if you are not going to expose yourself for your illiterate ignorance
Orwell aimed his writings at all forms of extremism - left, right and centre
"That maybe true Carroll"
The fact that you are totally incapable of conducting a discussion in reasonably respectful terms makes you one of the problems of society Orwell addressed much of his invective at - the bullying, belligerence that was threatening his world at the time.
Why not try reading a book - it can be both enjoyable and rewarding
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 05:27 AM

By the way
It is all too often that the heroes who went out to fight Fasicm in Spain returned home to find the had been criminalised by their politicians
In Britain, they immediately became "premature anti-Fasists" - eventually the US powers-that-be turned them into "Un-Americans"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:07 AM

By the way the Irish government were quite vicious to those that citizens that fought in WW2 as well.


http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-wwii-veterans-allies-apology-484431-Jun2012/

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:29 AM

"It is all too often that the heroes who went out to fight Fasicm in Spain returned home to find the had been criminalised by their politicians.

In Britain, they immediately became "premature anti-Fasists" - eventually the US powers-that-be turned them into "Un-Americans"

Bloody right they did, today I hope that the British Government shreds the passports of any who have gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. They represented a potential danger as much then as they do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:40 AM

a dilettante!!

he went to Spain , signed up with a militia. fought. copped a bullet in the throat that reduced his voice to a whisper for the rest of his shortened life. he was then imprisoned and saw his comrades executed by factions of the left that as usual couldn't bear to put up with another faction of the left.(abit like the Corbynistas can't stand the Blairite scum.)

dilettante.... one can't help but wonder what would qualify as being commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 07:39 AM

Spain was a fight against Fasicm - not "private citizens fights in other country's wars" and the fact that you regard it as uu=ch sums up perfectly the appeasing British Government took against the raise of Nazism
Germany had already started herding up the Jews ready for slaughter and still Britain did fuck all
The Royals were even teaching their children the fascist salute in readiness.
Al
My impression of Orwell a was gained from people who met him - two were at my father's funeral.
Iains
To the Irish, WW2 was a fight be tween Empires - they considered themselves as a colony of that Empire
The Irish (in the south anyway), assisted the war effort as neutrals - though a few sharing your views had for Franco as Blueshirts
Ireland was Governed at the time by a right-wing religious administration, so they can be fairly described as your lot as well
You rightists make me laugh - you can't distinguish who is yours and who is theirs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:24 AM

well i think first and last, he wanted to be a great writer. it made him somewhat self centred. political truth telling and family loyalties came a long way second.

but such single mindedness to produce art, can alienate people. as you know from the way Ewan seems to have rubbed so many people up the wrong way.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:49 AM

Foreign Troops/British Army

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 09:31 AM

"Bloody right they did, today I hope that the British Government shreds the passports of any who have gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. They represented a potential danger as much then as they do now"

Should this also pertain to foreign governments and their treatment of their nationals, for instance the Nepalese Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:55 AM

"Ewan seems to have rubbed so many people up the wrong way."
Only by saying what he believed
It never bothered me, even though I was on the receivin end occasionally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:24 AM

gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars.

Like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:39 AM

Like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

I rather assume the answer would be "yes". I wonder if he'd apply the same criteria to those Americans who volunteered to serve in the British forces before their country had come into the war. Or how about the Free French, after their nation's legitimate government had made a deal with the Germans?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM

Raggy take a look at the following:

"The number of states headed by Queen Elizabeth II has varied during her 65 years on the throne, altogether seeing her as sovereign of a total of 32 independent countries during this period. In her capacity as Queen of the United Kingdom (including the British overseas territories), she is also monarch of three Crown dependencies—Guernsey, Jersey, and Man—and, in her capacity as Queen of New Zealand, she is monarch of two associated states—the Cook Islands and Niue—since they acquired this status in 1965 and 1974, respectively.

Two countries are unique: The government of the unrecognised state of Rhodesia proclaimed its allegiance to Elizabeth II as queen of Rhodesia from 1965 to 1970. However, she did not accept either the role or the title and it was not accepted or recognised by any other state. Fiji became a republic through a military coup in 1987, after which its Great Council of Chiefs continued to recognise Elizabeth II as queen, or Paramount Chief of Fiji, until the council's de-establishment on 14 March 2012. However, this was only a ceremonial title, with no role in government at all."

Now that would mean that anyone from any of the above could swear an oath of allegiance to HM Queen Elizabeth II as their Head of State without any problem.

As far as Nepal goes, the country through long standing treaties and agreements with the UK, India and Brunei. The connection with the British goes back to 1815 and any Gurkha who serves a minimum of fours years in the British Army earns the right to settle in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 12:17 PM

no never bothered me either - but i'm always amazed to find the number of people who are still nursing a grievance.

the thing is when i'm dead, i won't hear all the rotten things they say about me - unlike now.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 04:18 PM

A very interesting cut and paste Terikins. You mention Fiji, Rhodesia (I presume you mean the modern State of Zimbabwe) and the islands of Guernsey, Jersey and Man amongst others states. Very interesting but not very relevant.

I'm not too sure as to the point you're trying to make.

In your previous post you stated ""Bloody right they did, today I hope that the British Government shreds the passports of any who have gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. They represented a potential danger as much then as they do now"

If the British Government should shred the passport of anyone who has gone to fight for a foreign state, surely that should according to your logic, also apply to any government anywhere in the world, and thus thus Nepalese nationals should not fight for Britain.

Or perhaps, in your logic, Britain is "special"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 04:44 AM

Raggytash: In your previous post you stated ""Bloody right they did, today I hope that the British Government shreds the passports of any who have gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. They represented a potential danger as much then as they do now"

If the British Government should shred the passport of anyone who has gone to fight for a foreign state, surely that should according to your logic, also apply to any government anywhere in the world, and thus thus Nepalese nationals should not fight for Britain.

Or perhaps, in your logic, Britain is "special"

I think you are missing an important part of the quote that you give:
to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. The Ghurkhas fight as part of our armed forces, not as private citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 05:00 AM

Nigel,

They are private citizens of a foreign state, an independent foreign state, they volunteer to join the British Army. The fact that the British Army formed a Regiment especially for these foreign nationals does not alleviate the fact they are foreign citizens fighting for a state that is not their own.

So to use the logic applied to British Citizens, the Nepalese Government should (according to that logic) shred their passports.

There would appear to be duel standards if we say on the one hand British Citizens should have their passports shredded if they fight for a foreign state but allow foreign national to fight for Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 05:21 AM

"If the British Government should shred the passport of anyone who has gone to fight for a foreign state, surely that should according to your logic, also apply to any government anywhere in the world"

Why Raggy? The British Government introduces, debates and passes into law legislation that only affects the British people and those living within the country. What other nations and the nationals of other nations do outside our jurisdiction are actually beyond our control. So taking your example of Nepal. If the Nepalese Government enter into a treaty with the UK, with India and with Brunei that allows it's citizens to volunteer, compete for, and gain places to train as soldiers to serve in the armies of those nations there can be nothing illegal, or morally wrong in anything done by the Nepalese Government or any Nepalese national.

The reason Rhodesia was mentioned was historical and fully explained in the section I pasted. Highly relevant it showed respect and regard for the Head of State while UDI showed utter contempt for her British Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 05:31 AM

Duel standards at the ready eh Teri.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 05:37 AM

"The British Government introduces, debates and passes into law legislation that only affects the British people and those living within the country"
Crap
Politicians deciding among themselves is no more valid for sending young men to their deaths if far lss democratic than people volunteering to fight
You've made your support for fascism quite clear on numerous occasions - not least on Spain.
Britain appeased fascism and continued to lick Hitlers arse long after brave men saw what was happening in Europe and went off to fight in Spain
Because of inaction on the part of the "free" nations, the Luftwaffe were allowed to cut their newly invigourated teeth on the market-place in Guernica and on the people of Madrid.
Chamberlain (the Prime Minister no-one dares to mention) came back to Britain proudly brandishing his piece of paper, having sold out Czechoslovakia "a far away country..... of whom we know nothing" and Hitler was allowed to make war when he was ready to do so.
As far as yo people are concerned, the only contact we should have with other nations is to sell arms to them.
We are governed by predatory scum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 06:34 AM

Jim. Not everyone shares your opinion of Chamberlain. It could be argued he bought time by sacrificing Czechoslovakia. We were unprepared for war in 1939-any sooner and the results would have been even more dire.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/09/neville_chamberlain_was_right_to_cede_czechoslovakia_to_adolf

I wonder what the outcome would have been with Corbyn in charge back then. No doubt the RAF would have been weighed in for scrap, and the only uniformed military left would have been the "Sally" army. No other choice but to appease then, would there be?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 10:56 AM

What duel standards Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 11:27 AM

"Britain appeased fascism and continued to lick Hitlers arse long after brave men saw what was happening in Europe and went off to fight in Spain"

Oh I don't think it was just Britain Jom. And those brave men you refer to, does that also include the Germans and Italians who went to fight for Franco - you didn't make that clear - you just eulogised brave men who as private citizens wandered off to fight in Spain and as everybody knows there are a minimum of two sides in every conflict.

If you read any book (An actual Historical work as opposed to fiction as preferred by Jom) you would know that the German General Staff gave Hitler two dates to fight a two front war:

1: He must first attack in the West and he must do that after 1936 and before 1939.

2: He must attack in the East no later than 1944.

With the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop in August 1938 there was absolutely nothing that could be done to save Czechoslovakia. By reaching an agreement with Hitler in Munich in September 1938 Chamberlain bought Great Britain time. Great Britain used that time to:

- Establish and make operational the integrated Chain Home Defence system;
- Re-equip RAF Fighter Command squadrons with modern mono-plane fighter aircraft;
- Push through develop and fit ASDIC to Royal Navy escorts;
- Design and build cheap, light escort vessels;
- Increase the intelligence networks focusing on Germany codes and capabilities. Had Chamberlain not succeeded in coming to an agreement with Adolf Hitler in September 1938, Britain would never have had the slightest clue about ENIGMA.

So much for the Prime Minister no-one dares to mention - You ignorant prat without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 12:53 PM

"Oh I don't think it was just Britain Jom. "
So - we are only answerable for our own governments
"And those brave men you refer to, does that also include the Germans and Italians who went to fight for Franco "
No it most certainly does not
Fascism became the main threat to our civilisation in the thirties and it was backed by the might of German
Those who left Britain and The U.S. weer opposing that power, but also that of their own governments who criminalised them for going - and their Church, in the case of Catholics
You skate over Britain's appeasement - as you would, and you claim my own account is "fiction" - without offering a shred of evidens
You now habitually throw out dishonest accuasitiona as defensive confetti
If my account is "fiction" have the balls to prove it
Ant=y moron can dismiss uncomfortable facts as lies - as you habitually do
Even putting forward documented facts that don't fit your agenda has become "made-up shit
Prove it - any of it
You debase this forum with your bullying and lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 12:57 PM

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

And who told you that then? Oh, sorry, I forgot that you need no source of information other than your own infallible method of comparing what is said and what is done. I didn't realise that it went as far as predicting an outcome that never actually happened.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 01:33 PM

i think the logic of both sides only works if you assume that England has some responsibility and natural inclination to do the decent thing.

not really sure that, unfortunately that is a 'given'.

we occupy a place in history, and like all reality - its ambiguous.

fascism wasn't anathema to a large portion of Englishmen.

think of Edward Viii's fascism. the fashion for upper classes to call their pet dogs 'Musso'. the anti left core at the heart of our security services like MI5. The anti semitism in the works of popular authors like Agatha Christie and John Buchan.

my mum was a quaker in St Helens in the 1930's - she reckons there were refugees coming over from Germany with all sorts of horror stories of what was going on as early as 1933. a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum chose to look the other way. it was the depression and no one wanted to get in the way of what little business there was.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 01:58 PM

"it was the depression and no one wanted to get in the way of what little business there was."
People in fear of their jobs cannot be compared to elected politicians who actually used racism and xenophobia to cover up their own inhumanity and incompetence
There was a fascinating television programme last week entitled "who should we let in" on the history of immigration in Britain, fronted by Ian Hislop.
A little short on deep analysis, but crammed full of useful information - Who'd have thought that Winston Churchill was once an enthusiastic multiculturalist and a vehement anti-racist
Fascinating stuff
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 02:09 PM

D the G. try opening a history book and try to understand what is inside the covers.
2 snapshots, both fairly typical:

http://www.deanscommunityhighschool.com/uploads/09-04-2014-1227147885345089e9b604_Appeasement-Issue3-WhyBritainadoptedappeasemen

In the second link I draw your attention to note 3.Conclusion from General Ismay to the British Cabinet sent on September 20th, 1938


Conclusion of Note from General Ismay to the British Cabinet sent on September 20th, 1938

Note:The first Spitfire I to enter service with the RAF arrived at 19 Squadron, Duxford, on 4 August 1938 and over the next few weeks aircraft were delivered at the rate of one a week to 19 and 66 Squadrons (also based at Duxford) 306 in service by the outbreak of war.
Note: Dec. 1938 first 4 Hurricanes in service. Nearly 500 by the outbreak of war.
The battle of Britain without these two aircraft types would likely have been a massacre. Without Chamberlain buying time these aircraft would still have been experimental prototypes on the outbreak of war.
It is also likely that without the Russian Front in 1941, the outcome in the west would likely have been entirely different.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 02:33 PM

Who told me that Gnome? Nobody had to tell me that.

Here is a little exercise for you Gnome - it only involves looking at what was said by whom and what was done.

Advance the Blitzkrieg attack in Europe to 1938

Britain does not have the things I mentioned that were rushed into place between 1938 and 1940 (start of the Battle of Britain) courtesy of the time bought us by Neville Chamberlain.

So NO:

- Operational, integrated Chain Home Defence system;
- Operational RAF Squadrons flying Spitfire or Hurricane fighter aircraft;
- No ASDIC to aid fight the Battle of the Atlantic;
- No design for or any Corvettes built;
- Extremely limited intelligence related to Germany - No ENIGMA, No ULTRA.

Tell us Gnome how much would the lack of all of that have "enhanced" our chances of survival against the Germans?

Oh especially for you Gnome - No Polish, or Czech pilots present in Great Britain to plug the gaps in the 1938 version of the Battle of Britain - which of course would have meant that there would have been no Gnome typing and sniping away on Mudcat today, and I would never have had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Rear-Admiral Joe Bartosik RN, CB, DSC.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 02:56 PM

"From: Teribus - PM Date: 30 Jun 17 - 02:33 PM "Who told me that Gnome? Nobody had to tell me that"

Of course no one has to tell you anything terikins, you claim to be the fount of all knowledge.

PRICELESS!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 03:13 PM

"Note:The first Spitfire I to enter service with the RAF arrived at 19 Squadron, Duxford, on 4 August 1938 "
Work on the Spitfire stared in the late 1920s
It was only brought into service in 1938 when the British leadership realised that attempts to appease fascism had not worked
At the beginning of the Spanish Civil War the Luftewaffe was not even functional - an ideal time to have nipped fascism in the bud
Many of the British establishment,, far from preparing for war with
Germany were welcoming what was happening there, particularly to the Jews
Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail ran regular column describing the new German paradise.
When British workers took to the streets to oppose the Blackshirts, not only did they have to face Mosley's thugs, but also mounted police woith batons protecting them
"New Germany is a bulwark of the menace of Bolshevism" - official.
Chamberlain was not trying to win time to fight Hitler - he genuinely sought a pact with him and was prepared to see other nations fall as long as it didn't effect us
Where did this "preparing for war" bullshit come from?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 04:02 PM

Jim."It was only brought into service in 1938 when the British leadership realised that attempts to appease fascism had not worked.
Wrong again!
"Peace for our time" was a declaration made by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in his 30 September 1938 speech concerning the Munich Agreement and the Anglo-German Declaration.

a pretty little picture on a drawing board needs to be built. Strangely enough a concept cannot destroy opposing planes. although in your fantasy world it might be feasible. FACT. Operational monocoque fighters first went on active service in the uk in dec 1938. To go from concept to reality in the space of less than three months is stretching credibility even for you. I suppose in your dreamworld it was hiding in a cupboard and whipped out when needed.

Tell me when is this fairy story of yours,masquerading as history, going to be published. Perhaps you could persuade the Dandy or Beano to serialise it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 04:06 PM

Didn't you bother to read the rest of it Jerk?

No snide Raggy lap-dog comments on the content? Or do you not have the knowledge or the intelligence to work out what the outcome would have been for a war fought between Great Britain and Germany in 1938?

Looking at what people said and what they Raggy:

Spanish Air Force (Including aircraft sent from Russia) - Proved to be totally inferior to the German Condor Legion.
Czech Air Force not modernised - slaughtered basically in days.
Polish Air Force not modernised - slaughtered basically in days.
French Air Force semi-modernised along with Hurricane Fighter Squadrons operating with no integrated command and control system - slaughtered basically in days.

Now care to discuss any of those points Raggy, or do you have to wait for your pals to give you a lead (As usual).

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 04:39 PM

My last link does not appear to work so I link to a national archives educational article. The last paragraph of the article, by the Secretary of the committee of Imperial defense Major General Ismay is crucial.

https://nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/educati

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 04:59 PM

"Note:The first Spitfire I to enter service with the RAF arrived at 19 Squadron, Duxford, on 4 August 1938 " - THAT IS TRUE (Documented FACT Jom)

"Work on the Spitfire stared in the late 1920s" - Says "Jom the infallible"

Ehmmmmm No Jom. The work started by Supermarine in the late 1920s was a purely private venture connected to the Schneider Trophy which was an international air race for seaplanes. The advances in technology and design brought about as a result of this series of races LATER spawned the following successful fighter aircraft:

- The British Supermarine Spitfire
- The Italian Macchi C.202 Folgore
- The North American P-51 Mustang (Once it was powered by the Rolls Royce Merlin engine)

Mitchell did not start work on the Spitfire until the Spring of 1934 as a follow on from the Supermarine Type 224 and Supermarine Type 300 both of which were rejected by the Air Ministry.

All of the above Jom is documented FACT.

Had Neville Chamberlain been more bellicose and given Hitler the war he wanted in 1938 instead of meeting Hitler in Munich the mainstay of RAF Fighter Command would have been the Gloster Gladiator biplane fighter which was basically obsolete as soon as it came into service - no match at all for the Me-109 as was proved to be the case in Finland, Norway and Greece.

"At the beginning of the Spanish Civil War the Luftewaffe was not even functional - an ideal time to have nipped fascism in the bud" - says Jom rather inaccurately

Ever heard of the Condor Legion Jom fully operational in Spain from July 1936 until March 1939. It was Ju-52 transport aircraft of the Condor Legion that airlifted Franco's Army from Spanish Morocco to Spain in 1936.

"Chamberlain was not trying to win time to fight Hitler - he genuinely sought a pact with him and was prepared to see other nations fall as long as it didn't effect us"

Wasn't that roughly what you said Britain should have done in 1914 Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 17 - 05:39 PM

"In context of the meaning of "world" you wrote This country is my context and this country is what I meant, clear to all bar morons so why not use the word 'country' in the first place, rather than 'world'. You expound at length in the 'Oxford comma' thread about the need for meaning to be clear, so presumably, in this case, you were looking to be obscure.
And what is wrong with the good word 'except'? 'Bar morons' sound like the thick crowd you would meet in your local pub!"

Nigel, I employ a style here that I describe as "literate vernacular." I do like to add a splash of colour to my prose in this grey world of mudcat. I'm not writing legalese nor a medical treatise. I suggest you confine your pedantic attacks to threads dealing with grammatical subjects. I'm known here for disliking attacks on my grammar, punctuation and writing style and have been known to forensically take apart the posts of attackers, exposing them to the ridicule they usually deserve. Hope you enjoyed the "split infinitive." Critics of said non-crime have never really understood what an infinitive actually is.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 03:03 AM

You always do this Teribus - avoid the main points by nit-picking on incidentals - I knew you would here - inevitable as the next shit!00
I know little about the Spitfire and have no interested in what it was called before it developed into what it eventually became
The point I made, which you are attempting to avoid buy strutting you military stuff - is Britain had no intention in stopping the rise of fascism (as Iaians claimed) and would happily have looked the other way if ten times the number of Jews had ended up in the Camps - and I have no doubt you have been happy to hold their coat while they did so.
Nobody has ever attempted to absolve Chamberlain - he will always be the great appeaser of fascism
Franco's Spain was a testing ground for fascism and he might have been stopped if the so-called democratic states had made the effort, instead of criminalising those who tried.
These men were heroes - scum like you try to turn them into traitors
I have no doubt the BNP hold the same view - why not check it out at your next branch meeting?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 03:10 AM

How Britain's GREAT AND GOOD fought Fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 04:03 AM

Iains and Teribus, the point you are both astutely avoiding is that no one can say with certainty that the past would have been X if event Y had or had not happened. It is pure speculation. The prediction may be correct but no one will ever know.

Teribus, the point you keep missing is that without someone telling you something, and that includes an author in a book or a presenter on the screen, you would know nothing. I know that I know very little and the older I get the more I realise how much more I have to learn. You, in your arrogance, tell us that no one needs to tell you anything. The proof you offer for this argument? Knowledge that you have gained by someone telling you something. Priceless as Raggy says.

Bluster and spout history all you like. I have not and will not dispute any of the factual evidence you present. What I will dispute is speculation and opinion presented as fact and the mind set of someone who believes he has nothing more to learn.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 04:36 AM

D the G. Operation sealion required 4 conditions to be met before taking place.1)The RAF was to be "beaten down in its morale and in fact, that it can no longer display any appreciable aggressive force in opposition to the German crossing". That is documented fact.
As Teribus states the bi plane Gloster Gladiator was the immediate predecessor of the Hurricane and first in squadron service on 23 February 1937. It was obsolete before it entered service and superceded just over a year later. Even the RAF described it as "an anachronistic survival from an earlier generation of fighter aircraft. The Gladiator filled a gap in defence requirements between the older biplanes and the new, modern monoplanes"
Had the battle of Britain been fought with an inferior aircraft the outcome would have been very different and the first qualification for sea lion to occur would have been satisfied.
Some of the above may be regarded as conjecture but no more so than holding your hand in a flame and disputing as to whether or not you will be burnt.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 04:50 AM

Britain had sold out to the Nazis before the Battle of Britain was a twinkle in anybody's eye
Fascism could have been stopped in the thirties and the slaughter that was World War Two need never have happened
How the **** could the powers that be foresee these battles, let alone plan for them?
The "free" world was happy as an antidote to The Soviet Union as the leaders declare - they said so
Even the Royal family had embraced it
Everything else is evasive bullshit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 05:03 AM

Iains D the G. Operation sealion required 4 conditions to be met before taking place.1)The RAF was to be "beaten down in its morale and in fact, that it can no longer display any appreciable aggressive force in opposition to the German crossing". That is documented fact.

And I have already said that I have not and will not dispute any of the factual evidence you present. The statement I was referring to was

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

I specifically quoted that and you are now bringing in other things, said to other people that have nothing to do with my point to cloud the issue. It does not work. My point, once again, is that the statement quoted is NOT a fact. It is speculation portrayed as fact.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 05:24 AM

Points made so far Gnome, by you, or your pals:

1: The Leave vote was won by politicians lying to and MSM manipulating the electorate.

In that context - I stated that I did not have to be told anything by a lying politician or by any article broadcast by MSM to know how I was going to vote - My views on the EU had already been formed long before the referendum on the EU was ever announced - My decision was based upon observing over the years what the EU said it would do and I then compared that to what the EU actually did - a totally unelected, corrupt, unaccountable, cosy little club run for the exclusive benefit of France and Germany.

The only other thing that you failed to realise when you and/or your pals (I tend to lump you all together because you certainly never seem to correct or contradict one another) stated the above, i.e. lying politicians and manipulating MSM, was the fact that for the majority of them - THEY WERE ALL FOR THE REMAIN CAMP - if you doubt that then name one major political party that campaigned for LEAVE.

2: That Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler at Munich was somehow shameful and that we should have gone to war earlier (Jom's view) - then you pitched in with the following:

Dave the Gnome - 30 Jun 17 - 12:57 PM

"... without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war." - Directly quoted from Teribus 30 Jun 17 - 11:27 AM


And who told you that then?

You say that nobody can state with any certainty what would have happened. I think that you are wrong, unless of course you can demonstrate that the following had no effect whatsoever on the outcome of what kept Hitler's war in the West alive and led to his ultimate defeat and Germany's unconditional surrender:

- Radar and the integrated air defence system that was put in place and perfected between 1938 and 1940.
- The equipping of RAF Fighter Command with Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft that replaced the obsolete Gloster Gladiator between 1938 and 1940
- ASDIC, prior to 1938 the Royal Navy only had ASDIC fitted to one class of ship, by 1939 five different classes of escort were fitted with the device in addition to ASDIC fitted to submarines.
- In 1938 in the event of war the Royal Navy knew that it was desperately short of escort vessels so in the months leading up to World War II the RN returned to the concept of a small escort warship being used in the shipping protection role. The Flower class was based on the design of Southern Pride, a whale-catcher. The original Flower-class, 225 vessels ordered during the 1939 and 1940 building programmes; and the modified Flower-class, which followed with a further 69 vessels ordered from 1940 onward. The modified Flowers being slightly larger and better armed. Without those ships added to the fleet the Battle of the Atlantic would have been lost.
- In 1938 the Poles let the British in on their work to crack the German ENIGMA codes. Do you really want to tell us all that the information we received through this work was not instrumental in us winning the Second World War?

All of the above could be done under peacetime conditions solely because of that little piece of paper Chamberlain came back with from Munich.

Oddly enough Jom did come out with something that was perfectly true. 1936 was the best time to take on the Germans. In 1933 Hitler had denounced the Treaty of Versailles, in occupying the Rhineland in 1936, Germany broke the terms of that Treaty. But there would have had to have been a George W. Bush in power in either Great Britain or France to do that, and simply put there wasn't. German General, Heinz Guderian's own autobiography stated that had one single French Gendarme been standing on the bridge used by the German Army as it was in 1936 their orders were to turn back - That by the way Gnome is fact, Guderian was man leading the column and I would imagine that he did know what he was talking about. That was 1936 and after the industrial Rhineland had been re-occupied German rearmament proceeded apace. By 1938 the German Army, German air force and submarine branch of the German Navy would have had all the advantages against the British and the French. So yes I do think that there are sufficient grounds to state quite unequivocally that had Chamberlain not won us those months before the start of the Second World War we would have lost it had we been attacked in 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 06:46 AM

Another load of bluster but there are a few points you have missed yet again.

The Leave vote was won by politicians lying to and MSM manipulating the electorate.

I have not said that. Look back. I have always said that the electorate on both sides were misinformed and manipulated. Without the misinformation and manipulation I have no idea how the vote would have gone. Maybe if both sides had stuck to the truth and kept hysteria out of it we would have still voted to leave. I am not speculating on a result based on things that may or may not have been.

In that context

Yes, context is everything isn't it. A fact that you and some others conveniently forget when it suits you.

I tend to lump you all together because you certainly never seem to correct or contradict one another

I have said specifically that I do not want another referendum. Others have disagreed.

You say that nobody can state with any certainty what would have happened. I think that you are wrong, unless of course you can demonstrate that the following had no effect whatsoever on the outcome of what kept Hitler's war in the West alive and led to his ultimate defeat and Germany's unconditional surrender:

I am happy that you say that you think I am wrong. That is the way it should be. If you have said "without him doing precisely what he did, I think we would have lost the war I would have had no argument. It is putting over speculation as fact that I object to.

As to your list of things that helped us to win the war, I have no doubt about their veracity or that they did help us to win. I have never disputed any of that so asking me to demonstrate that they had no effect is a pointless exercise. As pointless as me asking you to demonstrate how the Allies would have lost the war based on an isolated incident. Neither you, I nor anyone else can ever know the knock on effect of something that did not happen because, well, it dod not happen.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 06:55 AM

Let's just take one of your points as an example.

Without those ships added to the fleet the Battle of the Atlantic would have been lost.

If we did not have those ships how do you know that something else would have not come up? While I am sure that it is true that the Flower class did exactly as you say how do you know that, had that class not have been built, something even more effective would have been? You don't. I don't. No one does.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 07:16 AM

"a totally unelected, corrupt, unaccountable, cosy little club"

All untrue. The EU is not totally unelected. It is certainly not totally unaccountable. As for totally corrupt, that is just nonsense. You may be able to point to some corrupt practices. As the EU is predicated on the rule of law, accusations of corruption in the EU strongly imply illegal practices for personal or national gain. So let's be having them. But the EU is far from being totally corrupt. And we have got elected representatives in Brussels, so the EU is not totally unelected. The EU is accountable to each and every one of its members. Any brexit deal, for example, must be agreed by all 27 members, not by a central unaccountable administration. The overwhelming amount of EU legislation is agreed by all the countries it applies to, just a very small minority of laws causing any dispute. Only five percent or less of EU legislation has ever been disputed by the UK, a long-time Eurosceptic member. You don't get that by being totally unaccountable. When you say stupid things like this, what price the rest of your unending, tedious, blustering verbiage?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 08:48 AM

"If we did not have those ships how do you know that something else would have not come up? While I am sure that it is true that the Flower class did exactly as you say how do you know that, had that class not have been built, something even more effective would have been? You don't. I don't. No one does." - Gnome

1: How do you know that something else would not have come up? Asks Gnome.

It takes time to design and built a ship? The shortage of Escort vessels compelled the Admiralty to adapt an existing design and all of this was done in 1938. They did not look at anything else perhaps that is why it can be said with a fair degree of certainty that had they not gone through that exercise in 1938 then there would have been nothing to come up with in 1939 to make good our escort losses.

2: "how do you know that, had that class not have been built, something even more effective would have been?"

Well Gnome as said above if the idea had not been taken and acted upon in 1938 the ships would not have been available at all. So war starts and you find yourself dependent on convoys bringing in food and essential raw materials and supplies. You find yourself losing merchant ships and escorts. You only have a finite number of shipyards and a quantifiable ship building capacity so Gnome what do you build merchant ships, or escorts? Could you also tell me why it would be easier to come out with better ideas under wartime conditions than it would in time of peace? Tally up the losses in escort vessels and then take away the 294 Flower Class Corvettes - had they not been built our convoys would have been sailing unprotected. The Corvettes, thought of in 1938 and built in 1939 bought us time to do two things:

1: Provide convoy protection from the start
2: Design and build the later classes of Sloops and Frigates that replaced them.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 09:20 AM

"I have always said that the electorate on both sides were misinformed and manipulated. Without the misinformation and manipulation" There would have been no campaigns at all "Leave", or "Remain" - Campaigning politicians ALWAYS lie, they always misrepresent, they want you to do as they tell you, if you do not know that by now then you must be incredibly naïve.

Shaw reckons that the politicians are so well informed there should never be any referendums - Don't know about you, but during the Scottish Independence Referendum; the General Election; the EU Referendum it became pretty obvious to me that our collection of "professional politicians" were about as clueless as bunch as anybody else - far, far better to make your own mind up, with regard to the wheat and the chaff - sort it out yourself.

Recent General Election - Labour said, with completely straight faces, that their Manifesto was fully costed at £48.6 billion. The Institute of Fiscal Studies thought differently.

- The £6.5 billion they say they will get from tightening up tax avoidance and evasion - IFS state that the figures are just made and told both the Conservatives and Labour that two years ago when they both came out with these figures for 2015 General Election.

- Costs of Labour's proposed nationalisation programme not included.

- The £100 billion required for Labour's new National Investment Bank is not costed.

- University Tuition Fees the cost is £35 billion not £11.8 billion, Labour forgot to cost in the bit about writing off existing Student debt.

Their costings are between 100% and 200% out - Guess who's got to pay for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 09:27 AM

"What duel standards Raggy?"

The duel standard is very obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

You maintain that British citizens who go to "fight as private citizens in someone else's war" should have their passports shredded but you are quite happy that the British Army have an entire regiment of foreign nationals from an independent nation fighting in its ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 09:38 AM

Shaw "reckons" that it's politicians' jobs to be well-informed. Which is not at all what you say "I reckoned," is it, Bill? Stop twisting things to suit your agenda and just work with what you have. In other words, try to be honest. I mean, that's twice in one day now.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 11:27 AM

Could you also tell me why it would be easier to come out with better ideas under wartime conditions than it would in time of peace?

Many of the worlds innovations came out of war. Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. But you are still either missing the point or deliberately clouding the issue. You simply cannot say if X did not happen then Y would not have either in a situation so complex. I fully accept that you have studied the period and I have not but to unequivocally say that "without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war" is not a fact. Which is the only argument I have put forward.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 11:54 AM

"You simply cannot say if X did not happen then Y would not have either in a situation so complex."

WTF???

If Chamberlain and the French had not "negotiated" with Hitler in 1938 then that would have been when Hitler got the war he wanted in the West bang on when the German General Staff had told him he should have it - there would not have been peace, that was not what Hitler wanted.

That is NOT saying "if X did not happen then Y would not have either" that is saying "if X did not happen then Y would have".

If Chamberlain and the French had not "negotiated" with Hitler in 1938 and the war had begun in 1938 France would have been overrun and Great Britain would have been defeated in the air and forced to accept German peace terms - because in 1938 Great Britain was simply not prepared for, or equipped to fight a war.

There is not an historian who knows anything about the period or a military expert who specialises in the Second World War who would disagree with anything I have stated. Again it does not come down to saying "if X did not happen then Y would not have either" it is a case of saying via logic and reason that "if X did not happen then Y would most certainly have happened". Hitler could not have cared a toss about the West, alliances forced him to focus on the West because those alliances interfered with his plans in the East - He'd mentioned them in his book in 1923.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM

So, if the French had not negotiated with Hitler the war would have begun in 1938 eh? You just don't get it do you. Nothing to do with what did happen but what could have happened.

What about when Hitler had his meal celebrating the folly of the French and choked to death on a peanut leaving the third Reich leaderless and mourning? Or what about the assassin lurking on the Champs-Élysées during the victory parade? You have no idea what other factors would have come into play had events taken a different turn. No one has. It is all fantasy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 03:16 PM

"There is not an historian who knows anything about the period or a military expert who specialises in the Second World War who would disagree with anything I have stated"
Arrogant to the last - even as the ship goes down
Most historians, even those who defend Chamberlain, put his appeasement own to the situation he inherited by previous politicians in allowing Hitler to strengthen his hold on Germany.
The reasons they give for this are varied, ranging from support for Hitlers aims, the fear of Bolshevism, through to economic and political self-interest by those who still believed the war would go away and the Nazis would confine their atrocities within Germany
The British establishment was riddled with antisemitism who were happy to see the Jews (whining Yids, as some referred to them) brought to heel.
"There is not an historian who knows anything about the period or a military expert who specialises in the Second World War who would disagree with anything I have stated"
I thought we'd seen the last of shit like this when Keith hung his historical spurs up - I forgot about your meglomania
Anybody who knows a smidgen about history wil tell yuo that, pu six historians in a room together and you get twenty differing accounts of and piece of history.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 03:39 PM

Gnome if you - "fully accept that you have studied the period and I have not" that sort of begs the question just what the fuck are you doing arguing the details of it.

Czechoslovakia, France, Great Britain as viewed by Adolf Hitler in 1938:

"Hitler's adjutant, Fritz Wiedemann, recalled after the war that he was "very shocked" by Hitler's new plans to attack Britain and France 3–4 years after "dealing with the situation" in Czechoslovakia.

General Ludwig Beck, chief of the German general staff, noted that Hitler's change of heart in favour of quick action was due to Czechoslovak defences still being improvised, which would cease to be the case 2–3 years later, and BRITISH RERMAMENT NOT COMING INTO EFFECT UNTIL 1941/42. General Alfred Jodl noted in his diary that the partial Czechoslovak mobilisation of 21 May, 1938 had led Hitler to issue a new order for Operation Green on 30 May 1938, and that this was accompanied by a covering letter from Keitel stating that the plan must be implemented by 1 October at the very latest.

Note from the above:

Operation Green by the way was the German plan for an all out attack and invasion of Czechoslovakia.

Hitler via Italian mediation at Munich and the agreements made with Great Britain and France (Who by the way had a formal alliance with Czechoslovakia - Great Britain did not) lost his chance to implement Operation Green and Great Britain's rearmament programme was advanced and accelerated by Chamberlain.

I am not in the least interested in the generalisations of predicting events, or your passive aggressive pedantic ramblings - this specific subject was raised by Jom who referred to Great Britain at the time licking Hitler's arse, referring to Neville Chamberlain as the Prime Minister who no-one dared to mention.

Liked this one Gnome:
"Many of the worlds innovations came out of war."

Very true, but the start point of them all is that you have to survive the initial onslaught. Tell me Gnome what great war winning innovations came out of the war as far as Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Holland, Denmark and Norway were concerned? The answer is none because they fell at the first hurdle - they did not survive the initial onslaught. Now I can think of loads that came out of Great Britain and the USA - see the difference? Or do you just want to argue out of ignorance for the sake of it?

Had Hitler achieved his aim and got his war in 1938 he would have won in the West, defeated Czechoslovakia, France totally, defeated Great Britain in the air and imposed and dictated peace terms to the British Government. In 1938 he had the means, the will and the equipment to do that. At Munich he was robbed of the opportunity and he was recorded as being furious about it. You have been appraised of all the significant preparatory steps that were taken by Great Britain in the intervening period between Munich and the outbreak of war - those Hitler, the German General Staff and German Intelligence did not expect until 1941 at the earliest. Chamberlain won us invaluable time let there be no doubt at all about that.

A Battle of Britain fought in late 1938 or early 1939 would have had Great Britain's Gloster Gladiator fighters knocked out of the air by German Me-109 fighters like clay pigeons.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 03:44 PM

Hitler liked peanuts? Plain or dry roasted?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM

You tell us. You know everything and never need to be told anything, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 05:36 PM

Taking things out of context in order to demonize......the art of the scumbag.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM

❓

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 04:12 AM

that sort of begs the question just what the fuck are you doing arguing the details of it.

Then you obviously have not understood a single thing. I am not arguing about any details of history. If you cannot grasp then then what the fuck are YOU doing arguing about it? I have tried to explain my point a number of times so one more time will probably not help but here goes. No one can state, as fact, what would have happened if a single event in history had been different. Any single aspect in history. You can predict all you like. You can apply the law of probabilities to attempt to prove it. But you can never be certain of what the outcome would have been. You will never know what else that single change would have done. And what is more, you will never be able to because it is in the past, it never happened and it never will. It may be clever and logical speculation but it is still fantasy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 04:55 AM

Oh - and 500! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:24 AM

"No one can state, as fact, what would have happened if a single event in history had been different." - OH YES THEY CAN - with remarkable ease.

"Any single aspect in history. You can predict all you like. You can apply the law of probabilities to attempt to prove it. But you can never be certain of what the outcome would have been."

No prediction involved Gnome:

In 1938 the RAF's front line fighter would have been the Gloster Gladiator - no need to predict how this aircraft would have faired when matched against the German Me-109E - that was clearly demonstrated in Finland, in Norway and in Greece - they were slaughtered Gnome.

In the case and period under discussion had Great Britain not had the advantages detailed in previous posts and the time to develop them and had the war started in 1938 - then the following would have happened just as they did in 1940 with the exception that in 1938 the German Luftwaffe would have won the Battle of Britain.

Interesting little snippet for you Gnome:

Blitzkrieg - the lightening war - the use of massed tank formations integrated with mechanised infantry and close air support (As developed by the British under Field Marshall Douglas Haig in 1917/1918) to break through your enemy's defensive line and cause him to retreat in disorder. Any idea what made that possible for the Germans in 1940 Gnome? The number of Czech tanks (t-35s & t-38s) they acquired in 1938 - you see the Czech tanks were a damned sight more mechanically reliable that the ones the Germans had. Watch any documentary about the German attack on the West in May 1940 and in almost every frame showing "German" armour you will see either a Czech t-35 or a t-38. Had the war started in 1938 the Germans when they turned West would have had those tanks, they would have rolled up Holland, Belgium and France just as they did in 1940 as there would have been no changes required and their enemies even less prepared than they were in 1940. The BEF would have been defeated in France and the RAF would not have been able to provide any protection for any evacuation beaches - so a Dunkirk would not have happened. Then onto the Battle of Britain which in 1940 we won solely because of:

- Integrated air defence system gave us far better command and control of our forces which enabled 680 fighters to defeat over 3,500 German aircraft.

- In the Hurricane and Spitfire we had aircraft that could take on and destroy the best the German air force could throw at us.

Of course in 1938 we had none of the above did we Gnome. We would rapidly have lost command of the air and the British Government would have been forced to sue for peace on German terms or be forced to watch our cities destroyed before our eyes - THAT would have been the reality - obvious to all except theoretical pedantic little you.

Having secured his position in the West Hitler would have then attacked Poland (Where Gnome's Dad would have had to have remained having nowhere else to go) and then Russia (As he always intended to do).

Now who was it that robbed Hitler of his war in 1938? - Neville Chamberlin.

Who was it that bought us the time we needed to prepare and rearm? - Neville Chamberlain.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:36 AM

Had all you suggested happened, what would the USA have done, sat back and watched?

You are guessing at outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:56 AM

You can give us what happened as much as you like, Teribus. The fact remains that you cannot give us what did not happen because it did not happen.

Let us take your last example. The Gloster Gladiator would have been anihilated. Fair enough, I really don't know and don't care. So, the Gloster Gladiator was annihilated. The Luftwaffe won the battle of Britain. A joint venture between the USA and the UK fast tracked an intercontinental ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead and Germany was wiped of the face of the earth with it.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 06:09 AM

"You are guessing at outcomes."
Not only "guessing but ignoring the fact that, had Hitler been challenged "rather than befriended when Germany was not the threat it became, his international plans would have been nipped in the bud
Nazi Germany had no allies willing to join his crusade.
Instead of this, he describes those who did have a go as traitors - hardly surprising, where he's coming from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM

"Had all you suggested happened, what would the USA have done, sat back and watched?" - Asks Raggy

Yes - because that is what history records that they DID DO - unless you know any different Raggy.

It also has to be remembered that in December 1941 while the USA declared war on Japan, it was Nazi Germany that declared war on the USA - NOT the other way about.

"A joint venture between the USA and the UK fast tracked an intercontinental ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead and Germany was wiped of the face of the earth with it." - Chips in the Gnome as a possibility in 1938

REALLY?? Here are a few flaws for you to ponder Gnome:

1: Time to create this JV and what would have been in it for the USA? Would that time taken be less than the time that it would have taken the Germans to defeat and overrun Czechoslovakia, Holland, Belgium and France?

2: In 1938 the USA was less prepared for war than Great Britain and France.

3: The extent of US and British knowledge on ballistic missiles in 1938 was what Gnome? IIRC US missile technology only started to advance when they took a German scientist one Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun back to the USA in 1945.

4: In 1938 nuclear physics was in its infancy (Nuclear fission was only discovered in 1938 - by German scientists) the actual Manhattan Project began very modestly in 1939 in the USA, while at the same time in Great Britain the same work was started. It would take until 1945 until three operational bombs were built. Now tell me Gnome how Great Britain would have survived those six years of bombings and losses of merchant ships?

You see the difference between idiotic fantasy and reasoned and logical thought Gnome?

I can state with a great degree of certainty what would have happened in 1938 in Czechoslovakia and in Holland, Belgium and in France because of what did happen to them in 1939 and in 1940 with no changes to German plans and no special additions to German equipment or forces.

I can state with a great degree of certainty what would have happened if the RAF of 1938 had come up against the Luftwaffe because of the combat records of the aircraft involved in Finland, in Norway and in Greece where Gloster Gladiator fighters took on German Me-109Es without the benefit of being controlled and directed via an integrated early warning command and control system.

Adolf still choking on peanuts Gnome?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:02 AM

"the fact that, had Hitler been challenged "rather than befriended when Germany was not the threat it became, his international plans would have been nipped in the bud" - Jom

No argument at all from me on that Jom, you are perfectly right. Winton Churchill argued for it. It required someone like George W. Bush to carry it through because that is precisely what he did with regard to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

The bit I do not get is this:

"he describes those who did have a go as traitors"

Have a go at what? those people, private citizens, who travelled to Spain to fight for the republican side were fighting for "socialism", "communism" whatever against the "fascists" - as such they were fighting General Franco NOT Hitler and whatever they did in Spain would have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the Fascist regimes in other countries to state that they would is totally ridiculous.

The British Government has always discouraged private citizens from the UK travelling abroad to fight in other people's wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:12 AM

"Yes - because that is what history records that they DID DO - unless you know any different Raggy"

But you are suggesting a different history had German defeated Britain. Had that actually been the case would America have sat back and watched?

You don't know, I don't know, it's all conjecture at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:35 AM

"Have a go at what? those people, private citizens, who travelled to Spain to fight for the republican side were fighting for "socialism", "communism""
They were not
They were a mixed bunch - liberals, intellectuals, ane generally anti-fascists who saw the rise of fascism as a threat
The Communist Party played a part in recruiting and the Soviets sent arms (of a sort!!) but i general, The International Brigades were made up of those who wished to oppose fascism
My father was a practicing Catholic - a Collegiate student who has served mass for the priest
People he fought with were Trades Unionists and workmates of all commitments
Even the Civil War wasn't clear cut in its objectives but largely inspired by a military coup - not political ideals
My father crossed the Alps with a Hollywood film director as a companion.
Sure - some of them came back converted to communist or socialist ideals - just as many came back disillusioned because of the inter-political fighting between the general body of volunteers and the POUM (Anarchists)
To absolve their guilt for appeasing fascism, the establishment has depicted this war as Communist versus fascist - it never was as clear cut as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:19 AM

Correct me if I am wrong here Raggy but after the First World War didn't the USA pursue a strict and deliberate policy of "isolationism". A policy it held to until attacked by Japan and until Germany declared war on the USA. So what on earth leads you to believe that the USA would abandon that policy of "isolationism" if Great Britain was defeated by Germany (The year of that defeat doesn't matter, 1938, 1939 or 1940

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:20 AM

Incidentally - The Communist Party fell out with the factions for refusing to make the Civil War a revolution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:41 AM

Exactly the same as your conjecture, I am guessing at things that COULD have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 09:43 AM

Ah Raggy you are talking about things that might possibly happen but probably wouldn't as your conjecture lacks logic and reasoning. I, on the other hand am basing what I believe would have resulted had Chamberlain not negotiated a settlement at Munich and had Hitler got the war he wanted and had planned for in 1938. I base what I have said on logic and reasoning that is supported by actual events and outcomes.

- Annexation of Czechoslovakia by Germany, Hungary and Poland.
- Invasion of Holland 1940, 7 days - the result would have been the same, if not quicker, in 1938 or 1939.
- Invasion of Belgium 1940, 18 days - the result would have been the same, if not quicker, in 1938 or 1939.
- Invasion of France 1940, 46 days - the result would have been the same, if not quicker, in 1938 or 1939.

- Battle of Britain 1938 style would have been fought without radar, without the Hurricane and without the Spitfire. With the RAF depending upon the Gloster Gladiator biplane, out performed and outnumbered by the fighter aircraft of the German Luftwaffe, the result would have most certainly have been a defeat for the RAF. In no theatre of operations did the Gladiator prove equal to, or even pose a threat to the Me-109E. Here are some comments by those who flew them:

1: "The Gloster Gladiator was not only pretty to look at, but was a beautiful aircraft to fly, providing that you were not being chased by a Messerschmitt Bf109 at the time."

2: "The Gladiator never did prove itself as a fighting machine and were classed as death traps against the Luftwaffe Bf109s very early in W.W.II."

3: "In early September of 1939, two squadrons flew Gloster Gladiators in France. These were The County of Durham 609 Squadron and the County of Surrey 615 Squadron both were squadrons of the Auxiliary Air Force. Both suffered heavy casualties in the heavy engagements that they undertook. Being slow in both speed and in manoeuvrability, the gunners of the German bombers found them easy targets and up against the more modern swift monoplane fighters of the Luftwaffe they were totally outclassed."

4: "When the war moved to the south coast of Britain, Gladiators again became involved, but this time only on a minor scale. But the story was much the same as it had been before, they were being shot down like targets on a practice range. They were eventually withdrawn to areas where they would not be used in combat operations."

No guesswork - all fact - all that has been done is advance the timing to reflect no accommodation being reached or negotiated between Germany, France and Great Britain in 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 09:54 AM

Yes it is guesswork, you don't KNOW that would have happened, you cannot KNOW that would have happened, you can only speculate it MAY have happened.

As for America, it is entirely possible that to become the superpower they are they would have had to make war on a powerful German state and defeat it.

All guesswork of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 12:34 PM

Here is a major flaws for you to ponder too, Teribus.

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

It didn't fucking happen!

Chaimberlain did precisely what he did. Your theoretical scenario is a fantasy.

Pretty major flaw if you ask me.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 12:44 PM

Raggytash - 02 Jul 17 - 09:54 AM

1: Yes it is guesswork, you don't KNOW that would have happened, you cannot KNOW that would have happened, you can only speculate it MAY have happened.

No guesswork at all Raggy.

We know that Germany, Hungary and Poland carved up Czechoslovakia don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that Germany overran Holland in seven days don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that Germany overran Belgium in eighteen days don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that Germany overran France in 46 days don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that in 1938 Chain Home was not operational don't we? It was not operational until 1939. We know because that is recorded fact So it is safe to say that had war broken out in 1938 and it took less than six months to get the Germans from Germany and Czechoslovakia to the French channel ports it would mean that any Battle of Britain would have to be fought without any early warning radar.

We know that the RAF's main front line fighter aircraft in 1938 was the Gloster Gladiator don't we? Another recorded fact. We know from actual combat records that the Gloster Gladiator was no match at all for the German Me-109E. So it is safe to say that the German air force would have succeeded in wiping out the RAF in an 1938 version of the Battle of Britain.

2: As for America, it is entirely possible that to become the superpower they are they would have had to make war on a powerful German state and defeat it.

Why? Do you believe in pre-destiny Raggy? Why would America HAVE TO become a superpower? To do that why would they have had to fight Germany. All they had to do was wait and let Germany wear itself out fighting Soviet Russia - You see I am sure somebody in the American State Department had read Hitler's book. America could have made a fortune selling to both Germany and Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM

We know the history Teriblossom,that is the accepted truth (as we are led to believe) but you are making assumptions about what MAY have happened.

I am making assumptions about what America MAY have done.

There is no difference between my assumptions and your assumptions because they are simply that ASSUMPTIONS, guesswork, speculation etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 01:35 PM

had war broken out in 1938...

I am sure somebody in the American State Department had read Hitler's book

America could have made a fortune...

All documented facts eh, Teribus? Well, how about this.

War broke out in 1938.

The UK sends all its top scientists and leaders to a safe haven.

Europe, including the UK are overrun.

In 1940 the top scientists come up with a weapon so devastating that it can destroy the world

The top leaders negotiate with all the world powers, including the third Reich and convince them that unless the war ends the device will be used.

The war stops after 2 years instead of going on for the 6 it did.

Millions of lives are saved.

World peace is restored and lasts to this day.

You see, Teribus, your problem is that you are looking only at one tiny fraction of the picture. It is not your fault. As I have said for years you simply have no imagination. Have you any idea how many possible permutations there are in a game of chess? No, no one has ever really calculated it but the best estimate is around 10,000,000. Any single change in the the way a player has moved results in a different game. World war is far more complicated and the results are not always one side winds and one side looses.

Just above you say yourself, "Why would America HAVE TO become a superpower?" Well, your are now showing signs of thinking outside your fixed parameters. Keep it up and you may be surprised at the results.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 01:43 PM

In which case Raggy what are your assumptions based upon?

As far as logic and reason go you are on very shaky ground. You have no idea what US intentions and policy were. The world and it's dog knew what German intentions were, I believe that they were known to many at the time, which is why the deal was struck to prevent war breaking out in 1938.

Don't just keep rabbiting on about "you cannot know for certain" - show me that in stating what I have said where I am in error. Tell us all what miracle would have happened that would have saved Europe from War with Nazi Germany - please don't say Hitler could have been assassinated, or choked on a peanut - too stupid for words.

Gnome: Read your last post - I cannot make any sense out of it.

Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini got the Germans to come to an agreement at Munich in September 1938. Hitler wanted a war in 1938 to clear his way to attacking Russia. Hitler had the plan to attack Czechoslovakia "hot to trot" by 20th May, 1938. If there had been no interest in delaying the German plan and France stood by Czechoslovakia then war would have come to western Europe late summer 1938, immediately after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-aggression Pact had been signed and Great Britain and France would have lost that war in roughly 100 days - same time oddly enough that it took Field Marshall Earl Haig to defeat Germany in 1918 during the First World War - using the same tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 01:51 PM

Gnome: Read your last post - I cannot make any sense out of it.

Different language
Different planet

Just one more to go to catch up with Keith

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 03:07 PM

Dave the Gnome - 02 Jul 17 - 12:34 PM

Here is a major flaws for you to ponder too, Teribus.

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

It didn't fucking happen! [WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN???]

Chaimberlain did precisely what he did. [YES HE MANAGED TO AVERT A WAR THAT WE AT THAT TIME WERE NOT PREPARED TO FIGHT] Your theoretical scenario is a fantasy. [HARDLY GNOME BECAUSE WITHIN 18 MONTHS IT ALL ACTUALLY DID HAPPEN - EXCEPT BY THEN GREAT BRITAIN WAS PREPARED TO FIGHT]

Pretty major flaw if you ask me. [WHAT MAJOR FLAW GNOME???]

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 03:39 PM

Let's reuse the new format:

Dave the Gnome - 02 Jul 17 - 01:35 PM

"had war broken out in 1938...

I am sure somebody in the American State Department had read Hitler's book

America could have made a fortune..."

Note: The above are all cherry-picked by Gnome and placed above out of context.

All documented facts eh, Teribus? Well, how about this.

War broke out in 1938.

The UK sends all its top scientists and leaders to a safe haven. [The planned location was Canada]

Europe, including the UK are overrun. [Tell me Gnome why would Hitler want to "overrun the whole of Europe?? - That was never part of his plan]

In 1940 the top scientists come up with a weapon so devastating that it can destroy the world [You are fantasizing now Gnome - two years from scratch to instantly get "a weapon so devastating that it can destroy the world" - grow up the atom bomb took the resources of the USA, at this time in your scenario a neutral country remember, six years to build]

The top leaders [What top leaders?] negotiate with all the world powers, [Under what auspices? what forum, The League of Nations has been shredded] including the third Reich and convince them that unless the war ends the device will be used. [AH GOT IT - War of the Worlds scenario - yet another fantasy. Third Reich knows that while you may have a weapon you have no way of delivering it - their top scientists have told them that]

The war stops after 2 years instead of going on for the 6 it did. [How does the war stop? Does Germany keep the territory it has acquired? Does it retreat to its 1938 borders and ensure that this terrible new weapon can be delivered? Are really so naïve Gnome? - Germany in the late 1930s couldn't care less about Europe - Soviet Russia was the enemy Nazi Germany knew IT HAD TO DEFEAT - something you keep forgetting]

Millions of lives are saved.

World peace is restored and lasts to this day. [REALLY?]

You see, Gnome, your problem is that you are totally ignorant of the history of the period, yet feel compelled to argue points from ignorance. It is you who are looking only at one tiny fraction of the picture. It is not your fault - you neither know enough about the subject under discussion nor understand enough about it - which is strange having as you did a Father who fled Poland to come to Great Britain during the war. It is you who has absolutely no imagination.

World war is far more complicated and the results are not always one side winds and one side looses, or alternatively one side wins and one side loses, which oddly enough is always the case in any war, "World" or not. Experience shows us that it the ensuing "Peace" that is not always won.

Just above you say yourself, "Why would America HAVE TO become a superpower?" Well, your are now showing signs of thinking outside your fixed parameters. Keep it up and you may be surprised at the results. - Well yes I may well be surprised and perhaps, you never know maybe one of you monkeys will answer a direct question for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:18 PM

Still missing the whole point eh, Teribus. I can only blame myself for so long you know.

your problem is that you are totally ignorant of the history of the period

Absolutely fuck all to do with knowledge of history. Just the fact that you are claiming things that never happened as facts.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:23 PM

Oh, and BTW

Gnome: Read your last post - I cannot make any sense out of it.

For someone who could not make any sense out of my post you certainly put a lot into arguing against it. I suppose stranger things happen at sea...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:46 PM

While I wouldn't buy into Dave's alternative history scenario, he's dead right in emphasising the impossibility of being confident about any one of the uncountable "options".

Maybe the Oster Conspiracy by dissident conservatives generals to kill Hitler and stage a coup if a war on two fronts erupted because of the Sudetan would have come off.

Change the past and it might come off better, it might have come off worse. Nobody can know that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:16 PM

Terikins, time for bed. Don't forget to take your Aspergers pills.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM

One of the most dangerous faux-historical traits is the what-if syndrome. It can be used to justify some of the most horrible things perpetrated, to exonerate a severe wrong. What if we hadn't invaded Iraq? (It would have been three times worse for the Iraqis). What if we hadn't firestormed Dresden? (The war would have lasted for months longer). What if the two bombs hadn't been dropped on Japan? (Millions more would have been killed). Etcetera. Really? What if we hadn't sacrificed a whole nation, Czechoslovakia, to the Nazis? The Nazis!!! It's an easy game to play for the hawks. The questions are valid enough. The approach to answering them can't half bring out the ideologue in some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:21 PM

How did we get on to alternative history scenarios?

Imagining how things might have worked out differently is essentially the same as imagining how things might work out in the future according to what we decide to do, when faced with a choice. The difference of course is that we aren't making the kind of choices that shape how the world is going to go, most of the time.

But in an election we are taking part in such a choice, which is what this thread started out as being about. And I think we collectively made a much better chiice than looked only too likely a few weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:56 PM

We certainly did. I met our heavily-defeated Labour candidate yesterday (North Cornwall has long been LibDem but is now solid Tory). I apologised to her for being stupid enough to vote tactically for the insipid LibDems. Similar advice in the constituency in which my daughter lives (Truro and Falmouth) may well have cost Labour the seat, where their vote mushroomed way beyond expectations. Of course, if you're going to vote tactically for the LibDems it would be absurd to put Labour posters up in the window or car, or try to persuade people to vote Labour, but next time (which will be pretty soon) I predict a damn sight more of such apparitions and a damn sight more people out to campaign for Labour. There are an awful lot of us about! Be very afraid, Theresa. Just for once, Osborne was probably right, and he might well have included the whole Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 09:20 PM

Tactical noting is tricky. It's a rotten substitute for the Alternative Voting system we rejected (or rather 28% of the electorate rejected most people didn't vote), unsatisfactory as it was as a system.

But it probably made a diifference in a lot of places where Green voters went for Labour.

I imagine there must be a lot of Scots wishing they hadn't saved the Tories by their tactical voting. Alright, they've made Nicola Sturgeon back off from a referendum, but she'd likely have done that if Labour successfully pushed for a Brexit that would involve some way of helping the Scots have some special status with the EU that protected their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 02:58 AM

Bu confining the argument to 1938, Teribus carefully avoids the fact that, up to that point Britain was happy to see the Nazis in charge of Germany as "A bulwark against Bolshevism" - not just as appeasers but as passive allies.
Hitler became the harmless firework that exploded in Britain's hand and WW2 became the consequences of lighting the touchpaper in the first place
It was a lesson we never learned from and we are still suffering the consequences of dealing with monsters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:05 AM

OK - one more time - are you trying to tell me that these things never happened:

1: Germany, Hungary and Poland carved up Czechoslovakia in 1938/39 (Note that Shaw it was not just Nazi Germany)

Did that happen? - YES it did - that makes it a FACT

2: With the additional armour it acquired from Czechoslovakia the German army when it attacked in the west in May 1940 overran Holland in 7 days.

Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 17th May 1940 - that makes it a FACT

3: The German Army swept through Belgium in 18 days.

Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 28th May, 1940 - that makes it a FACT

4: The German Army conquered France and totally defeated the BEF I 46 days.

Did that happen? - YES it did 10th May to 25th June, 1940 - that makes it a FACT

5: Were the countries referred to above more prepared for war in 1940 than they were in 1938? Undoubtedly more prepared in 1940 than in 1938 as by 1940 war had been declared which is also a FACT. Therefore it is both reasonable and logical to conclude that the German Army would have had an easier time in overrunning Holland, Belgium and France in 1938 than it did in 1940 - COMMON SENSE.

6: Was Great Britain more prepared to fight a war in 1939 than it was in 1938? Undoubtedly Chain Home fully Operational in the summer of 1939 - FACT. The RAF's fighter Squadrons equipped with aircraft in 1939 that were equal to the task of combating the Luftwaffe - FACT This revolutionary integrated air defence system, the first of its kind in the world became available in 1939 - FACT. This integrated air defence system proved to be the significant factor in Great Britain winning the Battle of Britain in 1940 - FACT. Without Chain Home and without the numbers of Hurricane and Spitfire Squadrons the RAF would have lost the Battle of Britain - Acknowledged FACT by those in command and by those who fought the battle (That also includes German pilots who fought in the battle Adolf Galland for one of them)

7: In 1938 Great Britain did not have a fully operational integrated air defence system - FACT. In 1938 the RAF Fighter Squadrons were equipped for the most part with obsolete biplane fighters that basically stood no chance at all in combat against the Luftwaffe Me-109E - FACT as demonstrated whenever those two types of aircraft did encounter each other in combat in 1939 and in 1940. Those FACTS lead to the undeniable conclusion that had the Battle of Britain been fought in the late summer of 1938 Britain would have lost.

8: Therefore the statement that without Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini getting agreement in Munich the war in the West would have started in 1938 - THAT TOO IS A FACT evidenced by the orders given the German General Staff by Hitler himself. Had the war started in 1938 Great Britain and France would have lost it evidenced by what actually did happen in 1940.

There is very little speculation in what I have stated Kevin, and the reason we got onto this subject is through Jom's inaccurate, misunderstood reading of history and his crack about Neville Chamberlain being the Prime Minister who no-one dares mention.

This from the Gnome:

Dave the Gnome - 01 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM

"So, if the French had not negotiated with Hitler the war would have begun in 1938 eh? You just don't get it do you. Nothing to do with what did happen but what could have happened."

No Gnome not what could have happened - that is what was ordered:

"General Ludwig Beck, chief of the German general staff, noted that Hitler's change of heart in favour of quick action was due to Czechoslovak defences still being improvised, which would cease to be the case 2–3 years later, and BRITISH REARMAMENT NOT COMING INTO EFFECT UNTIL 1941/42. General Alfred Jodl noted in his diary that the partial Czechoslovak mobilisation of 21 May, 1938 had led Hitler to issue a new order for Operation Green on 30 May 1938, and that this was accompanied by a covering letter from Keitel stating that the plan must be implemented by 1 October at the very latest." - Teribus - 01 Jul 17 - 03:39 PM

Now can you tell me what part of that passage picked out in bold is in any way ambiguous or unclear. Hitler ordered activation of Operation Green in May 1938 as a result of partial Czech mobilisation and the actual invasion of Czechoslovakia must take place no later than 1st of October. Without negotiations throughout the summer of 1938 with Great Britain and France, Germany would have invaded Czechoslovakia some time between May and September 1938 - in accordance with Hitler's orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:37 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM

1: One of the most dangerous faux-historical traits is the what-if syndrome.

No it is not Shaw, as far as the study of History goes it is an essential part of the process of studying and understanding why things did happen the way that they did.

2: "What if we hadn't invaded Iraq? (It would have been three times worse for the Iraqis)"

Much, much worse Shaw. Iraq invaded in March 2003. IIRC at the time both Russia and France were pushing in the UN to get sanctions lifted on Iraq as they weren't working anyway. Sanctions lifted, Iraq rearms, and then in 2004 Saddam Hussein hears about secret Iranian nuclear fuel enrichment plants at Natanz and Oom. Of course Iraqis would probably have continued to be murdered at the rate of between 154 and 282 per day under Saddam but the much worse part would be that once he had completed his rearmament Saddam would have attacked Iran and sparked off a second Iran/Iraq War as there is no way on this Earth that Saddam Hussein in Iraq would stand for or permit neighbouring Iran to acquire any sort of nuclear capability.

3: "What if we hadn't firestormed Dresden? (The war would have lasted for months longer)"

Most likely, the Soviets would have had to have fought their way through it, in the process flattening it completely and that would have taken time in addition to costing unnecessary loss of allied lives (General principal of war is that in fighting one it is preferable to kill the enemy not sacrifice those fighting on your side).

4: "What if the two bombs hadn't been dropped on Japan? (Millions more would have been killed)"

Again most likely, and the tally would have been millions (General principal of war is that in fighting one it is preferable to kill the enemy not sacrifice those fighting on your side). The bombs saved more Japanese civilian lives than would have died had the main Japanese Islands been invaded (Which by the way would have triggered the execution of every Allied POW in Japanese hands)

5: "What if we hadn't sacrificed a whole nation, Czechoslovakia, to the Nazis?"

Well we know it wasn't just to the Nazis, Hungary and Poland took great chunks out of it as well. But what we know would have happened is that there would have been a war in 1938 and all available evidence points to the greatest likelihood that in 1938 Great Britain and France would have lost it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:36 AM

Like a spiral in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel

...but the tune is not as good.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:47 AM

Oh - and thanks for he comment, Kevin.

Yes, my alternatives are pure fantasy but I was just trying to illustrate the point that no one can envisage what may have happened if one thing changed. It is not possible.

As to how did we get to alternative histories - It started with

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:24 AM

Extremely good documentary on the television last on Channel 4's Secret History Series - Dunkirk: New Evidence. The likes of Shaw, Gnome, Raggy and MGOH would learn a great deal if they watched it on "play back". They would find out exactly what the appraisal of Great Britain's prospects would have been without the Spitfire - no speculation just plain honest truth, in the words of the pilots who flew those missions. They do not in any way contradict what I have stated at any point in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:37 AM

But no one has ever contradicted the role of the Spitfire. Why would I need to watch that to know that world war is an extremely complex scenario and that any action that occurred differently would have had untold consequences?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:41 AM

Not arguing with the points made, but just for a little accuracy:

2: With the additional armour it acquired from Czechoslovakia the German army when it attacked in the west in May 1940 overran Holland in 7 days.
Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 17th May 1940 - that makes it a FACT
3: The German Army swept through Belgium in 18 days.
Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 28th May, 1940 - that makes it a FACT
4: The German Army conquered France and totally defeated the BEF I 46 days.
Did that happen? - YES it did 10th May to 25th June, 1940 - that makes it a FACT
Add one day to each of those 'facts'. 10/5/1940 was a Friday, as was 17/5/1940. That makes it 8 days. Similarly for the other time periods mentioned.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:59 AM

Jaysus, Teribus. You'll listen to the Spitfire pilots for heir accounts but you won't listen to the tommies in the trenches. Well, I suppose it is cherry season.

As for what might have happened had the two bombs not been dropped, well that's just playing God. Did anyone think of scaring the Japanese by dropping them on the uninhabited side of a mountain?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 06:05 AM

"I apologised to her for being stupid enough to vote tactically for the insipid LibDems. Similar advice in the constituency in which my daughter lives (Truro and Falmouth) may well have cost Labour the seat, where their vote mushroomed way beyond expectations. Of course, if you're going to vote tactically for the LibDems it would be absurd to put Labour posters up in the window or car, or try to persuade people to vote Labour, but next time (which will be pretty soon) I predict a damn sight more of such apparitions and a damn sight more people out to campaign for Labour."

I'm not sure if we even received any Labour literature through the post here (a village in North Norfolk) and the only visitors to the house were LibDem (And even Norman Lamb was around).

I suppose I have mixed feelings. A Corbyn Labour government would be my more natural choice but I do consider Norman Lamb a good active MP for the constituency and, without a dramatic shift, the only one likely to keep the Tories out round here.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 07:10 AM

Steve Shaw - 03 Jul 17 - 05:59 AM

"Jaysus, Teribus. You'll listen to the Spitfire pilots for their accounts but you won't listen to the tommies in the trenches. Well, I suppose it is cherry season."

Rather pleased you brought that up Shaw - YOU should really watch the programme if you want to learn something (But if I am honest with myself you do not wish to learn anything, particularly if it contradicts any dearly held myth believed by either yourself or any of your pals)

In the WWI threads you are referring to with your crack about "tommies" IIRC I mentioned that the view and perspective of "the War" obtained from the trenches would be tiny postage stamp views, that are susceptible to misconception. I gave two examples of this view from other conflicts:

A) Waterloo 1815: Three eye-witness accounts
- That of the Duke of Wellington - Commander of the Allied Army;
- That of Captain William Kincaid 95th Rifles
- That of Rifleman Edward Costello 95th Rifles

Whose account would give you the most complete and accurate description of the Battle?

B) Dunkirk 1940:
The perception of the bulk of those evacuated from the beaches and of the naval personnel evacuating the troops was that the RAF went missing and played no part in the evacuation. This view was held to be true and factual by all those "eye-witnesses" because they didn't see any evidence of the RAF effort. We now know after 70 years that all of those eye-witnesses were wrong. We now know that the effort put in by RAF Fighter Command was a major contributing factor in the success of the evacuation (Best estimate for the numbers that would get back were 45,000 - In FACT over 340,000 troops, British and French made it back to England). In the 46 days it took for the Germans to ramp through France and the Low Countries in 1940 the RAF lost something like 980 aircraft, the Luftwaffe lost about 1,400. The RAF in support of Operation Dynamo, the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk, over the nine days of Operation Dynamo, the RAF flew 171 reconnaissance, 651 bombing and 2,739 fighter sorties. Fighter Command claimed 262 enemy aircraft, losing 106 of their own, losses worse than they would experience in the upcoming Battle of Britain. Invaluable battle experience gained and the aircraft that really did the damage was the up to then untried and unproven Spitfire.

Jaysus indeed Shaw - just when the fuck are you going to start arguing from anything other than a base of ignorance fuelled by your a bankrupt ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:52 AM

I'm not dearly holding myths nor clinging to any ideology here. I have spun neither in this thread. I'm pointing out to you that you are more willing to take on board the eyewitness accounts of the Spitfire pilots but not of the lads in the trenches. Odd that. Except that it isn't odd, is it? One lot fits in nicely with your your predigested opinions and the other doesn't. You're nothing if not consistently inconsistent (and always deflecting away from the point). As for my not wanting to learn anything, etc., well it wasn't me who said that no-one needs to tell me anything because I know it all already...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:54 AM

And you may note that I don't swear at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:56 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Jaysus, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:57 AM

Any more stunning revelations, Stanron? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 10:44 AM

That's not swearing, it's an "aspiration", a form of prayer. Though I rather doubt if that would have been Steve's intention.
.........

I think discussions about the war and the build-up to the war really belong in another thread. (But as a final nod here to that topic, I'd point out one rather major gap in his analysis. In 1938. Russia would not have been a sympathetic neutral, as in 1939, but a formidable adversary. Germany would have faced a war on two fronts, and that was not something the general staff relished. Three fronts actually, west, east and south.)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 10:57 AM

Ah but Shaw it also depends upon whether the stories told can be verified. Now as far as the RAF doing it's bit at Dunkirk that is undoubted and can be verified all the way down the line alpha to omega:

1: Flight records
2: Pilots logs
3: Combat losses
4: Confirmed victories
5: Wreckage of Aircraft (Two Mk 1 Spitfires have been recovered from the beach at Dunkirk and restored. Both are currently airworthy and flying. There are wartime photographs of German soldiers posing with the wreckage - So YES Shaw I believe that they were there and that all those "eye witnesses" were wrong).

Bit different to the story you and your pals tried to peddle. Tales allegedly told by t' "Tommies in t' trenches" of summary executions of British soldiers wasn't it. These summary executions being carried out by their own officers and others by special squads of military policemen. The problems with these stories were:

1: None of these supposed "eye-witnesses" could name one subject of these summary executions.

2: None of these supposed "eye witnesses" could give location, time, or date of any of these summary executions.

3: None of these supposed "eye witnesses" could name any officer who was supposed to carried out any of these summary executions.

4: Items 1, 2, & 3 should not really come as any great surprise because in the entire course of the First World War there is not one single recorded instance of any such summary executions ever having happened.

5: According to the Royal Military Police Museum members of the Corps of Military Police are never used to execute those condemned to death.

So on one hand Shaw we have loads of corroboration and hard evidence that support the fact that the RAF did cover the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk - and then on the other there is not one shred of evidence that there was ever any summary executions of any British soldiers by either their officers or by special squads of military police.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:24 AM

Who said I was talking about summary executions? I've never touched on that in my life. You dismissed the testimony of the soldiers in the trenches in general in favour of modern, living historians only. I'm only telling you what you said. It's very suspicious that you don't accept it whilst you do fully accept accounts by Spitfire pilots. You see, the one doesn't fit your preconceptions whilst the other does. That's what makes you not at all believable. Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

Unsubstantiated stories of alleged summary executions was the only time in the WWI threads that I questioned the veracity of supposed eye-witness accounts from the trenches Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

I believe that is only one small part of the stories told by "Tommies" who were actually in the trenches, actually in the fighting. You have condemned them all as liars on many occasions.

However, that particular argument has run it's full course more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:33 AM

Yes, as dismissed comprehensively by Keith and as unstintingly agreed by Teribus in many past occasions in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM

Really Raggy - care to give us an example quoting the entire text of any such post, As stated to Shaw, the only occasions I have done so when Jom and the Musktwats were trying to peddle the yarn about summary executions.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:43 AM

Why not start a thread to talk about that stuff?

If we don't get back to politics I'd suggest this thread be shut down.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM

Oh dear Shaw and Raggy have run up another blind alley and are about to get slaughtered again.

I am described as being "unbelievable" because I tend to put credence in stories the facts of which can be verified by multiple sources and I dismiss vague stories told to besmirch reputations of those who can no longer defend themselves, stories the details of which cannot be substantiated or verified. I'd say it is you pair who are truly unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:47 AM

ffs TurdulouS T

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:52 AM

Opps and never meant to post that - was just typing in my own anger at reading to delete but Turdulous, Terry Bus etc. We can all make up but it grates after a while...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 12:00 PM

Don't worry Mr. Freeman your post speaks volumes about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 12:06 PM

i think summary executions are an inevitable part of all wars. its what its about. you're there to kill them . they're there to kill you.

surely that much is uncontroversial.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 12:57 PM

Yes Big Al, but without providing any proof or corroboration Jim Carroll and Musket made repeated allegations that British Officers and "special squads" of British Military Police summarily executed British soldiers who did not get out of their trenches quick enough.

When asked to provide details of any such instance over a number of threads where these baseless allegations were levelled, neither could provide a shred of evidence to back their claims up. Both myself and Keith A researched the matter thoroughly and could find no record of any such execution ever taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 01:46 PM

Don't worry Mr. Freeman your post speaks volumes about you.

If (which I doubt) meant frustrated with below the line here and often wondering why I've never fully escaped here I guess you would be right.

It's funny looking back here with my history. I knew the good times, eg. Mudcat radio, chatting to others on ICQ, staying up to play (and even was involved in helping the original hereme before paltalk) songs with others and meeting a e people. Some of it was once just good naive fun.

Of course I progressed to rows, bits I'd stand by and bits I deeply regret but even through the BS wars, I'd not envisaged what is now below the line being so predominantly fixed position politics with name calling and accusations of "liar" so often tossed in for good measure...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM

I am reading a book called The Trumpet Major, by Hardy, it is more interesting than this thread, good night

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:15 PM

So, Teribus is going on about something in an entirely different thread on a comment made by Musket who is not even here. Dick is going on about how boring the thread is without even contributing to it and the thread has turned into one about elements of WW1 without Keith even being here! Definite proof that anything can and often does happen regadless of what is predicted.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:41 PM

well its not impossible Teribus. one thing my Dad always taught me was that history books on the subject of war are rubbish. the truth doesn't fit on a page or a photograph or a film - he always said , it misses the smell of corpses for a start.

you were either there, or you weren't.

not worth arguing about. there can be no way to prove or disprove the story.

however i tend to think - think of the worst scenario you can imagine, and multiply by ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:49 PM

Anyway, May looks like she's going to screw up now on public sector pay. The issue has now gone so much upfront that, if she doesn't accept the review bodies in full right now, she is going to lose tbe next election, which could be very soon. The review bodies, though in the back pocket of the government anyway, are now looking positively saintly. Just a reminder of how they were resented when they were first foisted on the public sector in a blatant attempt to emasculate the trade unions and destroy collective bargaining. The alarm bells about this are ringing in the heads even of numpties such as Gove and Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:57 PM

you reckon there'll be another election soon - even after the DUP deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:06 PM

Well she's going to struggle like mad with her own backbenchers, in particular the right-wing hawks. That's why she called the last one, to see them off, and that notion went belly-up. She's in a much worse position with them than before.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:19 PM

Another thing that is clear is that the voices proclaiming that the Conservatives won because they has the most seats and votes and that Labour lost are becoming aware that, while numerically true, the situation is far more subtle and nuanced than that. The public sector pay issue is a good example that winning and losing may be rather different than first appearances.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:34 AM

The point is that our elected representatives should do the job they are paid handsomely for with the help of their army of paid advisors.

Their job is to enact the will of the people.

The will of the people was to put it to a referendum, and the will of the majority was exit.


"I have always said that the electorate on both sides were misinformed and manipulated.

You have always been wrong.
The case was put to them by both sides as in any election campaign or jury trial.
Controversial claims from both sides were challenged by both sides.
It was very difficult to avoid being informed during the campaign.
You have no case that the electorate was misinformed.
Information was everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:37 AM

Trouble with back bench rebels? Hardly. All May has to do is gather them together and tell them point blank - either get with the programme or I will call an election - an election which at the moment we are guaranteed to lose and which will result in most of you losing your seats - make your mind up chaps.

The above is blatantly obvious to everyone in the Conservative Party which is why there will be no back bench revolt and there will be no General election called anytime in the near future.

A Corbyn "led" Labour Government would be a complete and utter disaster for the country, we are still trying to recover from the shambles the last Labour Government made of our economy.

Hammond has hinted at tax rises if the public sector cap is raised or abolished - fair enough, say most in the expectation that somehow "only the rich will pay" - don't you believe it, the working population of the United Kingdom can give public sector workers anything they wish to - as long as the working population of the United Kingdom realises that EVERYBODY will have to pay for it. MY suggestion is that we switch to the Scandinavian model so favoured by the SNP - Base Rate of Tax 38% (That is everybody by the way - In Norway if they want something and vote for it - they pay for it, unlike us the debt is not kicked down the street like a can for future generations to pay off) - That should give public sector workers a good deal and maintain their superior "protected" pension arrangements while the private sector struggles along with everybody having to take out private pension plans (to keep them in old age when the State Pension finally becomes extinct) where Corbyn has stated that he intends taxing your contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 05:02 AM

Big Al Whittle - 03 Jul 17 - 03:41 PM

"well its not impossible Teribus."

Dangerous world that Big Al - where baseless accusations and scurrilous allegations can be levelled that for some reason must not be challenged purely on the basis of them "not being impossible".

The following is a nonsense:

Party A states that Party B was guilty of committing murder based upon the hearsay "eye-witness evidence" of Party C. Yet "eye-witness" Party C cannot provide a single detail relating to the alleged murder - he/she cannot name the victim, cannot state the time, date, or location of where the murder took place - there is not even a body and no corroborating statements from others known to be present - then when pushed on these points Party C changes his/her story to him/her only hearing about such murders, i.e. Party C isn't an "eye-witness" at all. You tell me Big Al if you were Party B would you be happy to be sent down purely on the premise that "it's not impossible" - I know I bloody well wouldn't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 05:20 AM

Another liar perhaps

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:32 AM

That may be her best option, Terebus (04 Jul 17 - 04:37 AM), but there is every reason to suspect it wouldn't work, even though I agree few if any Conservatives want an election now - it is why she hasnt been defenistrated already. But there is something in economic theory called 'the tragedy of the commons' and in this context it would lead people to risk calling her bluff. And you should not leave ego of of this. May's reputation is on tatters but given enough time it could recover. To call an election and be remembered as the least successful leader ever and be a case study for PPE for decades to come is not a pill that is easily swallowed: to take in voluntarily would be remarkablw.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM

Raggytash:
Another liar perhaps
Possibly, possibly not. But not someone who can provide first hand evidence.
The newspaper is reporting what the son says his (dead) father told him. In law this would be classed as 'hearsay'.
There is no way of interrogating the father. It is also possible that he was passing on what he had been told (urban myth) as his own experience to provide a better example of the horrors of war. We will never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:38 AM

Raggy, some questions for you

1: How much of that "story" did you check?

2: North Staffordshire Regiment correct?

3: Volunteered and joined up in 1914 correct?

4: The alleged "summary execution" took place 18 months later correct? Which would put it sometime between January 1916 to June 1916.

There is a bit of a problem with that Raggy:
If you look at the Regimental History of the North Staffordshire Regiment (The four Battalions of the Regular Army; The six Battalions of the Territorial Army one of whom were in Ireland in 1916; + the other nine service, reserve and garrison Battalions of the North Staffordshire Regiment), none of them were involved in any attack, suicidal or otherwise, in France in that time frame. This would have been three months after the Battle of Loos in 1915 and before the Battle of the Somme in July 1916.

5: Any explanation why the soldier in question did not mention his best friend's name? Why he could not identify the officer?

6: This Officer asks what is wrong "Mate" then it's "Soldier"

7: Tell me Raggy do you always believe EVERYTHING you read in the newspapers, or just the articles that suit your POV? Don't you question anything??

This was after a cursory examination - I will go through it in more detail - pissing down with rain so it should give me something to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:48 AM

Your response is exactly as I expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:03 AM

The North Staffordshire Regiment
Battalions of the Regular Army
1st Battalion
August 1914 : at Buttevant. Part of 17th Brigade in 6th Division. Moved to Cambridge and quickly on to Newmarket.
12 September 1914 : LANDED AT ST NAZAIRE.
18 October 1915 : transferred to 72nd Brigade in 24th Division.

Battalions of the Territorial Force
1/5th Battalion
August 1914 : in Hanley. Part of Staffordshire Brigade in North Midland Division. Moved to Luton area and in November 1914 went on to Bishops Stortford.
4 March 1915 : LANDED AT LE HAVRE.
12 May 1915 : formation became the 137th Brigade in 46th (North Midland) Division.
January 1916 : moved to Egypt, returning to FRANCE next month.

8th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Lichfield on 18 September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 57th Brigade in 19th (Western) Division.
Moved to Salisbury Plain, went into billets in Bristol in December 1914 and in February 1915 to Weston-super-Mare before going to Tidworth in April.
18 July 1915 : LANDED IN FRANCE.
7 February 1918 : transferred to 56th Brigade in same Division.


9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers)
Formed at Lichfield on 20 September 1914 as part of K3. Moved to South Downs, attached as Army Troops to 22nd Division. Moved to billets in Hastings in December 1914.
20 April 1915 : became Pioneer Bn and transferred to 37th Division.
29 July 1915 : LANDED AT LE HAVRE.

1st (Garrison) Battalion
Formed at South Dalton in April 1916 and MOVED TO FRANCE IN MAY, where it remained. Renamed 13th (Garrison) Bn on 31 July 1918.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:10 AM

PS The officer enquired "What's that matter with your mate"

In your haste to try and discredit the soldier you cannot even read the article correctly.

Quelle surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:23 AM

Well, Teribus, I think many Tories realise that Theresa May is not only a loser but also a balls-up expert. "Brexit means brexit" was a balls-up, calling the election was a balls-up, the manifesto was a balls-up, trying to make herself presidential was a balls-up, the emphasis on attacking Corbyn's character was a balls-up, her post-election Downing Street speech was a balls-up, not talking to the Grenfell residents was a balls-up, the choice of the white, male, upper middle-class judge is looking like a balls-up.   She is likely to lose the next election whenever it comes. The hard men would rather that happened sooner than later. They would gamble on Corbyn making such a hash of things that the Tory hegemony would quickly return. Only takes a handful of rebels to ditch her. She's toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:26 AM

And the next balls-up? The public sector pay cap. She is in a position in which there is no good choice for her. Just watch her make the worst one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 12:36 PM

Very good Raggy:

The North Staffordshire Regiment was expanded to 18 battalions, these battalions saw service in a number of theatres including on the Western Front, at Gallipoli, in the Middle East, and India. The following list details the involvement of these battalions:

1st Battalion – served in France from September 1914 until November 1918;

2nd Battalion – served in India throughout the war;
3rd (Reserve) Battalion – operated as a training battalion in the United Kingdom throughout the war;
4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion – garrison battalion in Guernsey 1914–1916. Returned to United Kingdom in 1916. Served in France 1917–1918;

1/5th Battalion Territorial Force (TF) – mobilised in 1914, and served in France from 1915 to 1918;

1/6th Battalion TF – mobilised in 1914, served in France from 1915 to 1918;

2/5th Battalion TF – formed in 1914, moved to Ireland in 1916 where it was involved in the Easter Rising, served in France 1917–1918. Merged with 1/5th Battalion in February 1918;
2/6th Battalion TF – formed in 1914, moved to Ireland in 1916 where it was involved in the Easter Rising, served in France 1917–1918. Merged with 1/6th Battalion in July 1918;
3/5th Battalion TF – formed in 1915. Renamed 5th (Reserve) Battalion in April 1916. Served as a training battalion in England 1915–1918;
3/6th Battalion TF – formed in 1915. Renamed 6th (Reserve) Battalion in April 1916. Merged with 5th (Reserve) Battalion in September 1916;
7th (Service) Battalion – formed in 1914. Took part in Gallipoli Campaign July 1915 – January 1916. Evacuated to Egypt. Served in Mesopotamia from February 1916. From July 1918 were part of North Persia Force (Dunsterforce) and ended the war in Baku, Azerbaijan.

8th (Service) Battalion – formed in 1914. Served in France 1915–1918;

9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers) – formed as a service battalion in 1914. Became a pioneer battalion in 1915. Served in France and Belgium 1915–1919;

10th (Reserve) Battalion – formed as a service battalion in 1914. Became a reserve battalion in 1915. Renamed as 3rd Training Reserve Battalion of 1st Reserve Brigade in 1916;
11th (Reserve) Battalion – formed as a service battalion in 1914. Became a reserve battalion in 1915. Renamed as 4th Training Reserve Battalion of 1st Reserve Brigade in 1916;
12th (Service) Battalion – formed 1918 in France from 11th Garrison Guard Battalion. Renamed as a service battalion and continued to serve in France;
1st (Garrison) Battalion – formed in 1916. Served in France 1916–1918. Renamed 13th (Garrison) Battalion in July 1918;
2nd (Home Service Garrison) Battalion – formed in 1916. Became 17th Battalion Royal Defence Corps in 1917.

Only those Battalions detailed in bold are in France at the correct time according to the newspaper article all the others can be discounted.

Private Sydney Hollis was among the 1.2 million men who volunteered between August and December 1914. As such Private Sydney Hollis would have formed part of Kitchener's "New Army" and would have served in one of the Regiments "Service" Battalions.

14 February – 13 June 1916: actions in the Spring of 1916.

- Enemy diversionary attacks around the Ypres Salient: the Bluff, 14 February – 2 March 1916;

The above involved:
Second Army (Plumer)
172nd Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers
V Corps (Fanshawe)
3rd Division
17th (Northern) Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED.

- Enemy diversionary attacks around the Ypres Salient: the action of St Eloi craters, 27 March – 16 April 1916;

The above involved:
Second Army (Plumer)
172nd Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers
V Corps (Fanshawe)
3rd Division
Canadian Corps (Alderson)
2nd Canadian Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED

- The German attack at Vimy Ridge, 21 May 1916;

The above involved:
Third Army (Allenby)
V Corps (Wilson)
47th (2nd London) Division
XVII Corps (Byng)
25th Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED

- The Battle of Mount Sorrel, 2-13 June 1916.

The above involved:
Second Army (Plumer)
XIV Corps (the Earl of Cavan)
20th (Light) Division
Canadian Corps (Byng)
1st Canadian Division
2nd Canadian Division
3rd Canadian Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED.

You may note Raggy that these were all German Attacks. In fact Raggy there were NO attacks by the British Army in the period Private Sydney Hollis and his best friend (Who for some reason has no name) were supposed to have been ordered "over the top".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM

Of course Terikins, nicely cherry picked.
Firstly you arbitrarily decided he must have signed up in August 1914, not something stated in the article. Then you didn't take time to read the article but immediate decided he was lying because the office called him "mate" then "solider. Now you carefully cherry pick the actions and again the dates. You will note from the details below that the Service Battalions (which you again have arbitrarily placed Hollis in) did engage in battles.

If you dispute this take it up with the people who wrote the Regimental history.

1st Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Buttevant, Ireland as part of the 17th Brigade of the 6th Division and then move to Cambridge and then on to Newmarket.
12.09.1914 Mobilised for war and landed at St. Nazaire and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1914
The actions on the Aisne heights.
Dec 1914 This Battalion took part in the Christmas Truce of 1914.
During 1915
The action at Hooge
18.10.1915 Transferred to the 72nd Brigade of the 24th Division and continued to engage in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916
The German gas attack at Wulverghem, The Battle of Delville Wood, The Battle of Guillemont.
e Battle of Vimy Ridge, The Battle of Messines, The Battle of Pilkem Ridge, The Battle of Langemarck, The Cambrai Operations.
During 1918
The Battle of St Quentin, The Actions at the Somme Crossings, The Battle of Rosieres, The First Battle of the Avre, The Battle of Cambrai 1918, The pursuit to the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Feignies west of Maubeuge.

2nd Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Rawal Pindi, India where it remained throughout the war.

3rd (Reserve) Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Lichfield and then moved to Plymouth.
May 1915 Moved to Seaham, in County Durham and then Forest Hall, in North Tyneside.
Oct 1916 Moved to Wallsend, North Tyneside where it remained.

4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Lichfield and then moved to Guernsey.
Sept 1916 Moved to Marske.
Mar 1917 Moved to Saltburn and in June joined the 200th Brigade of the 67th Division moving to Westbere, Canterbury.
07.10.1917 Left the 67th and mobilised for war landing at Havre and transferred to the 167th Brigade of the 56th Division.
15.11.1917 Transferred to the 106th Brigade of the 35th Division near Ypres and engaged in various actions on the Western Front.
03.02.1918 Transferred to the 105th Brigade of the same Division and continued to fight on the Western Front including;
During 1918
The First Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Ypres, The Battle of Courtrai, The action of Tieghem.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in Belgium, Audenhove N.E. of Renaix.

1/5th Battalion Territorial Force
04.08.1914 Stationed at Hanley, as part of the Staffordshire Brigade of the North Midland Division and then moved to the Luton area, and then Bishops Stortford.
04.03.1915 Mobilised for war and landed in France where the formation became the 137th Brigade of the 46th Division.
During 1915
The German liquid fire attack at Hooge, The attack at the Hohenzollern Redoubt.
Jan 1916 Moved to Egypt.
Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.
During 1917
Operations on the Ancre, Occupation of the Gommecourt defences, The attack on Rettemoy Graben, The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The attack on Lievin, The Battle of Hill 70.
30.01.1918 Transferred to the 176th Brigade of the 59th Division, absorbing the 2/5th Battalion and continued to fight on the Western Front;
The Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Bailleul, The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge.
09.05.1918 Reduced to training cadre and transferred to the 16th Division.
17.06.1918 Transferred to the 34th Division.
27.06.1918 Transferred to the 117th Brigade of the 39th Division.
12.08.1918 Transferred to the 116th Brigade o f the 39th Division.
06.11.1918 Demobilised in France near Etaples.

1/6th Battalion Territorial Force
04.08.1914 Stationed at Burton-on-Trent as part of the Staffordshire Brigade of the North Midland Division and then moved to the Luton area, and then Bishops Stortford.
04.03.1915 Mobilised for war and landed in France where the formation became the 137th Brigade of the 46th Division.
During 1915
The German liquid fire attack at Hooge, The attack at the Hohenzollern Redoubt.
Jan 1916 Moved to Egypt.
Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.
During 1917
Operations on the Ancre, Occupation of the Gommecourt defences, The attack on Rettemoy Graben, The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The attack on Lievin, The Battle of Hill 70.
During 1918
The Battle of the St Quentin canal, The Battle of the Beaurevoir Line, The Battle of Cambrai, The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Sains du Nord S.E. of Avesnes.

2/5th Battalion Territorial Force
01.11.1914 Formed at Hamley.
Jan 1915 Moved to Luton area and joined the 176th Brigade of the 59th Division and the moved to St. Albans.
April 1916 Moved to Ireland; Dublin and then Curragh to quell the troubles there.
Jan 1917 Moved to Fovant, Salisbury Plain.
25.02.1917 Mobilised for war and landed in France and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1917
The pursuit of the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The capture of Bourlon Wood.
06.02.1918 absorbed into the 1/5th Battalion.

2/6th Battalion Territorial Force
01.11.1914 Formed at Burton.
Jan 1915 Moved to Luton area and joined the 176th Brigade of the 59th Division and the moved to St. Albans.
April 1916 Moved to Ireland; Dublin and then Curragh to quell the troubles there.
Jan 1917 Moved to Fovant, Salisbury Plain.
25.02.1917 Mobilised for war and landed in France and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1917
The pursuit of the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The capture of Bourlon Wood.
During 1918
The Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Bailleul, The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge.
09.05.1918 Reduced to training cadre and transferred to the 66th Division.
31.07.1918 Absorbed into the 1/6th Battalion.

3/5th and 3/6th Battalion Territorial Force
May 1915 Formed at Hanley and Burton and then moved to Grantham.
08.04.1916 Became the 5th and 6th (Reserve) Battalions.
01.09.1916 the 5th absorbed the 6th and moved to Catterick as part of the North Midland Reserve Brigade Territorial Force.
Mar 1917 Moved to Lincoln and then Mablethorpe.

7th (Service) Battalion
29.08.1914 Formed at Lichfield as part of the First New Army (K1) and joined the 39th Brigade of the 13th Division and moved to Salisbury Plain.
Jan 1915 Moved to Basingstoke and then Blackdown, Aldershot.
June 1915 Embarked for Gallipoli form Avonmouth.
July 1915 Landed at Gallipoli and engaged in various actions against the Turkish forces including;
The Battle of Sari Bair, The Battle of Russell's Top, The Battle of Hill 60.
26.01.1916 Evacuated to Egypt due to heavy casualties from combat, disease and severe weather conditions.
29.02.1916 Moved to Mesopotamia and engaged in various actions including;
During 1917
The Battle of Kut al Amara, The capture of the Hai Salient, The capture of Dahra Bend, The passage of the Diyala, and the capture of Baghdad.
July 1918 Transferred to the 39th Brigade of the North Persia Force and moved to Baku to protect the oil fields.
31.10.1918 Ended the war in North Persia, Enzeli.

8th (Service) Battalion
18.09.1914 Formed at Lichfield as part of the Second New Army (K2) and joined the 57th Brigade of the 19th Division and moved to Salisbury Plain, and then Bristol.
Feb 1915 Moved to Weston-super-Mare and then Tidworth.
18.07.1915 Mobilised for war and then landed in France and engaged in various action on the Western Front including;
During 1915
The Action of Pietre.
During 1916
The Battle of Albert, The attacks on High Wood, The Battle of Pozieres Ridge, The Battle of the Ancre Heights, The Battle of the Ancre.
During 1917
The Battle of Messines, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The Battle of Broodseinde, The Battle of Poelcapelle, First Battle of Passchendaele, The Second Battle of Passchendaele.
07.02.1918 Transferred to the 56th Brigade of the 19th Division and continued to fight on the Western Front;
During 1918
The Battle of St Quentin, The Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Messines, The Battle of Bailleul, The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge, The Battle of the Aisne, The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Bry west of Bavai.

9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers)
20.09.1914 Formed at Lichfield as part of the Third New Army (K3) and attached to the 22nd Division and moved to South Downs and then Hastings.
20.04.1915 Moved to Windmill Hill, Salisbury Plain and joined the 37th Division as a Pioneer Battalion.
29.07.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916
The Battle of the Ancre.
During 1917
The First and Second Battles of the Scarpe, The Battle of Arleux, The Battle of Pilkem Ridge, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The Battle of Broodseinde, The Battle of Poelcapelle, The First Battle of Passchendaele.
During 1918
The Battle of the Ancre, The Battle of the Albert, The Battle of Havrincourt, The Battle of the Canal du Nord, The Battle of Cambrai, The pursuit to the Selle, The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1915 Ended the war in France, south of Le Quesnoy.

10th (Reserve) Battalion
Oct 1914 Formed as a service battalion of the Third New Army (K3) at Plymouth, but then transferred to the Fourth New Army (K4) as part of the 99th brigade of the 33rd Division, and then moved to Okehampton.
10.04.1915 Became a 2nd Reserve battalion and moved to Darlington, then Rugeley, Cannock Chase as part of the 1st Reserve Brigade.
01.09.1916 Became the 3rd Training Reserve Battalion.

11th (Reserve) Battalion
Oct 1914 Formed as a service battalion of the Fourth New Army (K4) at Guernsey.
Feb 1915 Moved to Alderney.
10.04.1915 Became a 2nd Reserve battalion and moved to Darlington, then Rugeley, Cannock Chase as part of the 1st Reserve Brigade.
01.09.1916 Became the 3rd Training Reserve Battalion.

12th (Service) Battalion
11.06.1918 Formed in France from the 11th Garrison Guard.
15.06.1918 Joined the 119th Brigade of the 40th Division and moved to St. Omer, and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The Final Advance in Flanders
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, south of Roubaix.

13th (Garrison) Battalion
31.07.1918 Formed in France from the 1st Garrison Guard.

1st (Garrison) Battalion
April 1916 Formed at South Dalton.
May 1916 went to France
31.07.1918 Became the 13th (Garrison) Battalion.

2nd (Home Service) Garrison Battalion
Nov 1916 Formed in Guernsey
Aug 1917 Became the 17th Battalion of the Royal Defence Corps.

Down arrow 35 people in our Victorian Conflicts records
Down arrow 656 people in our Boer War records
Down arrow 18867 people in our WW1 records
Down arrow 5261 people in our WW2 records
Down arrow 381 people in our Post WW2 records
Down arrow 63 people in our Forces Reunited records
Battles / Campaigns

St Quentin Canal (1918) WW1

Please also refer to The battle of Cambrai
Cambrai (1918) WW1

The battle of Cambrai-St. Quentin, 27 September-9 October 1918, was the main British contribution to Marshal Foch's all out attack on the Hindenburg line (the Hundred Days). It saw three British and one French army force the Germans out of their strong defensive line and back to the River Selle.

Foch's plan involved a Franco-American attack between Reims and Verdun (Meuse-Argonne Offensive), a combined French, British and Belgian attack in Flanders, and a mainly British offensive between Cambrai and St. Quentin. Here four allied armies (three British and one French), under the overall attack of Douglas Haig, would attack the strongest part of the German line.

Haig's four armies, from north to south, were the British First (Horne), Third (Byng) and Fourth (Rawlinson) and the French First (General Marie Eugene Debeney). On 25 September the British had 22 divisions in the front line, with twenty more in reserve. Amongst them were two divisions of the American II Corps, the equivalent of four normal divisions. Debeney had a further eight divisions in the line. The Germans had fifty seven divisions opposing the British. Rawlinson's fourth army, which was to make the central attack, was faced by von der Marwitz's Second Army.

The German defensive position had been carefully chosen towards the end of 1916. Long sections of it were based on the Canal du Nord and the St. Quentin Canal, which ran through steep sided 60ft deep cuttings. The British plan was to launch their main attack between Vendhuille and Bellicourt, where the canal ran through a tunnel. The elite Australian corps and the fresh US II Corps would carry out the attack. Elsewhere attacks would be made on the line of the canal, but less was expected of them.

The battle began on 27 September with an attack by the First and Third Armies on the Canal du Nord. They advanced four miles along a thirteen mile front, captured 10,000 prisoners and cleared the canal.

The southern attack began on 29 September. It did not go according to plan. A preliminary attack on 28 September had failed, leaving American troops in isolated advanced position close to German strong points. The artillery bombardment couldn't fire on these strong points for fear of hitting the Americans, and nor could the first part of the advance be protected by a creeping barrage. The American attack was soon bogged down (although elements from the 30th Division were able to seize control of the southern end of the St. Quentin Canal), forcing the Australians to join in much sooner than expected. The attack on the St. Quentin Canal was in serious trouble.

Further south the canal itself was also under attack. IX Corps had prepared carefully for the water crossing, providing their men with collapsible boats, life jackets and even floating piers, in the expectation that the Germans would destroy every bridge over the canal. Instead, as the 46th (North Midland) Division advanced towards the canal they realised that the bridge at Riquaval was still intact. The 137th (Staffordshire) Brigade captured the western bank of the canal, and the 1/6th North Staffords rushed the bridge. By the end of the day two divisions were across the canal, and IX Corps had captured four miles of the main Hindenburg Line. The attack at Riquaval produced one of the most famous pictures of the war, taken on 2 October 1918 and showing the men of the 137th Brigade lining the steep banks of the cutting listening to a speech by Brigadier-General J V Campbell.

The following day the 3rd Army were in the western suburbs of Cambrai and by 2 October the line of the St. Quentin Canal had been captured. General Max von Boehm, commanding the local German army group, was forced to retreat to a new line running south from Cambrai.

This line only held for a few days. On 8 October the British Third and Fourth and French First Armies, launched a set-piece attack along a 17 mile front, forcing the Germans out of the new line. Cambrai was liberated on 9 October, and the Germans forced back to a new line on the River Selle, near Le Cateau. The BEF was returning to the battlefields of 1914.

The battle of Cambrai-St. Quentin is also know as the battle for the Hindenburg Line. Officially it was the battles for the Hindenburg Line, further broken down into the battle of the Canal du Nord, 27 September-1 October 1918 (the British First and Second Armies) and the battle of the St. Quentin Canal, 29 September-2 October 1918 (the Fourth and French First Armies), followed by the battle of Beaurevoir, 3-6 October 1918 and then the battle of Cambrai of 1918, 8-9 October 1918.

After 9 October the fighting died down for a few days while the British prepared to attack the line of the Selle. Having pushed the Germans out of their main defensive lines, Haig was determined not to give them the time to create strong new positions.
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Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 01:46 PM

Did I say cherry pick, what I really meant was that you were trying to mislead people by not including all the information available.

Some may accuse you of lying by omission, some may.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:10 PM

truths can stay hidden for a long time Teribus. The catholic church with its record of abusing women and children has relied on that.

the Savilles of this world don't always get their sins disclosed.

many sins and crimes go undiscovered and unpunished.

just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:33 PM

Sydney John Hollis

Gender:        Male

Birth:        Circa 1899 Hanley, Staffordshire

Residence: As of Apr 2 1911 - 53. Clarence Street, Basford Stoke on - Trent, Staffordshire, England

Age:        12

Occupation:        School

Father:        Benjamin Hollis
Mother:        Elizabeth Hollis

Siblings:        
Harrold Hollis
Mary Ellen Hollis
Ernest Hollis
Florence May Hollis
Lillian Hollis

If Sydney Hollis enlisted when he turned 16 (Inspired by his brother Harold who was in the Territorial Army according to the article) he would have joined either:

1/5th Battalion Territorial Force (TF) – mobilised in 1914, and served in France from 1915 to 1918.

1/6th Battalion TF – mobilised in 1914, served in France from 1915 to 1918.

I don't think that the TA paid too well in peacetime so best guess is that it was not the fact that brother Harold was in the Territorial Army that prompted him to volunteer, but the fact that on war being declared brother Harold was called up and his TA Unit mobilised for active service that inspired young Sydney Hollis to enlist. In which case Young Sydney would have been in Kitchener's "New Army" intake K3, and he would have gone to what they called "Service" Battalions i.e. those who joined and pronounced themselves prepared for duties overseas for "service in the line".

In 1914 it was the Regulars who fought
In 1915 the Regulars who were left were joined by the Reserves and the TA Battalions
In 1916 The survivors of the Regulars, the reserves and the TA were joined by the volunteers of Kitchener's New Army
In 1917 That is when the bulk of the conscripts started to arrive.

The cherry-picking if that is what you see it as is driven by the detail given in the article.

Joined up in 1914 with his best pal who has no-name, sorry his murdered best pal, whose name must have slipped his mind.

They served in France so that rules out all the Battalions of the North Staffordshire Regiment who did not serve in France (Good Cherry-pick that Raggy it removes loads from the list)

This summary execution took place 18 months after Sydney Hollis and his pal joined up which puts it some time between January 1916 and June 1916. This time frame eliminates Battalions who served in France after June 1916 (Another bit of Cherry-picking - that I will refer to as logic), so no need to read about the Battle of Cambrai as that was fought in 1918.

Now the Battalions of the North Staffordshire Regiment present in France were not engaged in any offensive operations in that period (As detailed by the Regimental History you provided Raggy) which begs the question why were Sydney Hollis + best pal whose name escaped him + beastly Officer (whose name also escaped Sydney) being sent "over the top"? Reasonable question don't you think?

Now Raggy put yourself in Sydney Hollis's shoes, your best pal, who you have served with since joining up is shot right there in front of you by one of your own Company Officers and you cannot remember even the most basic details of the incident? Come on pull the other one every single detail of that incident would be seared into your mind until eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:02 PM

You really are desperate aren't you.

What a sad case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM

I should have posted that you are really desperate to protect the people you perceive to be officers and gentlemen and thus have to be obeyed.

You really are a sad case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:14 PM

Wonder if those busy playing tin soldiers have anything to say on the fact that the DUP negotiations have bombed - "Bye, bye Tessie we must leave you" seems appropriate in these military circumstances
What a fuck-up eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 09:13 PM

The DUP/May axis was bound to make agreement a hundred times more difficult. I can't believe that I left this one out of my litany of Theresa May's balls-ups. But Teribus is still clinging to his "CORBYN would be an absolute disaster..." etc., etc. 😂 She's going to go down as the worst prime minister this country has ever had by a country mile.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM

Rag your story has been shown to be lies, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 04:23 AM

Nothing desperate about what I have posted Raggy.

YOU have posted the Regimental History of the North Staffordshire Regiment - indicate what offensive operations they were involved in on the Western Front in the period January 1916 to June 1916. Good luck with that Raggy - 1916 as far as the war went was a year of German offensive operations the largest of them being the attack on the French at Verdun - Falkenhayn's attempt to bleed the allies white. The only British offensive operation that year was the Battle of the Somme, which was too late in the year for the time frame given in the article. The Somme was an offensive operation forced upon Haig and mounted to relieve pressure on the French at Verdun. It worked, by the end of the battles of Verdun and the Somme it was the German Army that had been bled, their commander was relieved of his command and the German High Command acknowledged that with the forces they had available they could not defeat France and Britain on the western front.

The accusation that British soldiers were summarily executed by their own officers and by "special squads" of Military Police remains unsubstantiated and unproven.

So Raggy are you really trying to tell me if your best friend was shot and killed at close quarters right in front of your eyes by someone you knew and worked with, you would not be able to remember:

- Name of your best friend
- Name of his murderer
- The date on which your best friend was murdered
- The time of day your best friend was murdered
- The place where your best friend was murdered

Like all other previously proffered examples - Your link and the story told has got too many holes in it to be credible.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:45 AM

Hmm. Next time you squeal about someone going off-topic in one of your threads, Keith, your usual ploy when things are getting tough, I'll remind you that you were cheerfully helping to derail this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:58 AM

Ah but steve, a history lesson is way more interesting than a cookery lesson, or a blow by blow account of your journey to becoming a master sommelier.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:09 AM

I'll remind you that you were cheerfully helping to derail this one.

But that would be untrue Steve.

Rag was entirely responsible for it.
Teribus merely took the trouble to expose the lie, and I just posted one short sentence acknowledging the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:09 AM

I'm all in favour of thread drift, Iains, and have said so many times. Keith is also in favour of thread drift - when he thinks things are going his way. But just watch him squeal when things are looking a bit rocky. He's done it so many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM

One short sentence that had absolutely nothing to do with the thread title and not even a single short one-syllable word about tbe substantive, Keith. Don't start. Tell us, Keith. If you lived in Northern Ireland would you vote DUP? Got anything to say about May's big stitch-up?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM

First things first I have never claimed that "The accusation that British soldiers were summarily executed by their own officers and by "special squads" of Military Police remains unsubstantiated and unproven"

So you can forget that.

Second issue, we do not know if the gentleman in question gave the name of the soldier murdered or the name of the officer culpable. We only know they are not mentioned in the article. As the soldier could be construed as to have been killed for cowardice, that is a decent reason for not naming him. As the officer may have been shot by his own side that again is a good reason for not naming him. The dates in relation to the article are irrelevant.

Thirdly why should a soldier from WW1 lie to his son many years after the event. I don't know about you but I am, and always have been, scrupulously honest with my son.

Forthly, you try to maintain a time frame not given in the article, however even using your time frame units of the North Staffordshire regiment where engaged in fighting:

1/6th Battalion Territorial Force:Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.

8th (Service) Battalion:During 1915
The Action of Pietre.
During 1916
The Battle of Albert, The attacks on High Wood, The Battle of Pozieres Ridge, The Battle of the Ancre Heights, The Battle of the Ancre.

9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers):29.07.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;During 1916 The Battle of the Ancre.

I could go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:29 AM

No Steve.
Raggy derailed the thread, not my sentence.

You just keep trying so desperately to get something on me, and failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:31 AM

Professor get you facts right. Watch the time line below:

ONE.Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:24 AM

Who said I was talking about summary executions? I've never touched on that in my life. You dismissed the testimony of the soldiers in the trenches in general in favour of modern, living historians only. I'm only telling you what you said. It's very suspicious that you don't accept it whilst you do fully accept accounts by Spitfire pilots. You see, the one doesn't fit your preconceptions whilst the other does. That's what makes you not at all believable. Jaysus.

TWO.From: Teribus - PM
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

Unsubstantiated stories of alleged summary executions was the only time in the WWI threads that I questioned the veracity of supposed eye-witness accounts from the trenches Shaw.

THREE:Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

I believe that is only one small part of the stories told by "Tommies" who were actually in the trenches, actually in the fighting. You have condemned them all as liars on many occasions.

However, that particular argument has run it's full course more than once.

You will note that TERIBUS once again introduced the subject of the trenches whilst I initially suggested it had run it course.

Will you apologise ............ I somehow doubt it, you never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:46 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM
Thirdly why should a soldier from WW1 lie to his son many years after the event. I don't know about you but I am, and always have been, scrupulously honest with my son.

I covered this above, in a message you didn't respond to:
Raggytash:
Another liar perhaps
Possibly, possibly not. But not someone who can provide first hand evidence.
The newspaper is reporting what the son says his (dead) father told him. In law this would be classed as 'hearsay'.
There is no way of interrogating the father. It is also possible that he was passing on what he had been told (urban myth) as his own experience to provide a better example of the horrors of war. We will never know.

If you have always been scrupulously honest with your son then you must be one in a million. Your son will have missed out on Father Christmas, the tooth fairy, and many other things, but never mind, at least you haven't lied to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:57 AM

Fair point Nigel. Like most people however I think letting children believe Father Christmas exists is (mostly) harmless.

But I think you know what I was driving at. I can envisage no reason why a man, presumably at the latter end of his life, would lie to his son about something so serious.

Splitting hairs in this instance is disingenuous and does not add to the discussion in any positive manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:02 AM

Half a league, half a league, half a league onward:

600!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:17 AM

That's two posts now that have nothing to do with the thread, Keith, you poor little victim you, and not a word about UK politics. I honestly don't mind, but you know me, I'll remember it. Just can't help noticing, that's all. Let me try to drag you back in, like the lost sheep in the parable. What about the DUP stitch-up, Keith? Is May right to withhold the billion and a bit it would take to remove the public sector pay cap this year and pay the DUP their billion and a bit instead, just to keep her "in power?" Whaddya think, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 09:02 AM

But I think you know what I was driving at. I can envisage no reason why a man, presumably at the latter end of his life, would lie to his son about something so serious.

Splitting hairs in this instance is disingenuous and does not add to the discussion in any positive manner.
Hardly splitting hairs I find it very reasonable that a father, wishing to bring home to his son the horrors of war, would pass off as his own a story he had heard.
It is even possible that it is the son that has done this. The whole point of "Urban myths" is that you first hear them retold by someone who has a link to the person they (claim to) have heard it from, but they keep this at only a single remove to make it sound more like a personal experience, or something they have heard first hand from an eye witness. The reason for retaining this at a single remove is that you can then have an excuse for not being able to confirm any additional details. It also means that any embellishments you choose to add will be credited to the earlier, uncheckable, source.
Even the person inventing an Urban Myth will claim that it happened to someone else, and was told to him, to avoid being caught out on missing details.


The whole story may be true in every detail. But that doesn't make it valid as evidence of such an occurrence ever happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 09:14 AM

"Lovely to see this article printed. Sydney Hollis was my grandfather and was one of the kindest, gentlest, intelligent people you could ever hope to meet. As a young boy he would sometimes talk about the war to me. he never glorified it, though and would talk about the whole futility of it. I'm proud to be his grandson"

A comment on the article by the soldiers Grandson.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 11:22 AM

By all means Raggy do go on:

The time frame is set by the time Hollis and "the lad from Cannock" had served together. The most likely period according to the massive influx of recruits into the Army as a result of war breaking out WOULD BE anytime from August 1914 to December 1914. Eighteen months on (A detail specifically mentioned in the article) puts the alleged murder of this teenager from Cannock sometime between January 1916 and June 1916 - so as far as the article goes the time frame is both correct and logical.

Your latest:

1: 1/6th Battalion Territorial Force:
Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.

Part of the initial stages of the Battle of the Somme July 1916 - so too late for the time frame.

2: 8th (Service) Battalion:
During 1915
The Action of Pietre. - September 1915 too early for the time frame defined by the stipulated eighteen month interval between joining up and the alleged incident.
During 1916
The Battle of Albert - July 1916 too late for the time frame; The attacks on High Wood - July 1916 too late for the time frame;
The Battle of Pozieres Ridge - July 1916 too late for the time frame;
The Battle of the Ancre Heights - October 1916 too late for the time frame;
The Battle of the Ancre. - November 1916 too late for the time frame.

3: 9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers):
29.07.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916 The Battle of the Ancre. - This was the first action fought by this unit as part of the 37th Division - November 1916 too late for the time frame.

As I said please do go on - I can keep playing "Whack-a-mole" until the cows come home - the story still has too many holes to be believable.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:03 PM

So tell us faunt of all knowledge just how old you had to be to serve at the front. If he was just sixteen when he signed up (for your argument between Aug & Dec 1914 it could have been between Aug & Dec 1916 before he ssaw the front.

During that time he could have become friends with the lad who was killed. I am sure you will verify that friend made in the military are close friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:22 PM

"If he was just sixteen when he signed up (for your argument between Aug & Dec 1914 it could have been between Aug & Dec 1916 before he saw the front."

Example: Harry Patch - Conscript - called up in the late summer of 1916 - Did not go to France until June or July 1917 - Wounded during the Battle of Passchendaele in September 1917.

Example: Here is what happened to the 24th Division made up of Kitchener's recruits -

The history of 24th Division (Long.Long Trail)

This Division was established in September 1914 as part of Army Order 388 authorising Kitchener's Third New Army, K3. The units of the Division began to assemble in the area of Shoreham. Early days were somewhat chaotic, the new volunteers having very few trained officers and NCOs to command them, no organised billets or equipment. It was March 1915 before makeshift drab uniforms arrived and not untul July before rifles were issued.

The Division moved 19-23 June 1915 to Aldershot for final training. Lord Kitchener inspected the Division at Chobham ranges on 19 August and next day it was the turn of King George V. Orders were received on 19 August to move to France and the first units departed one week later.

Concentration was completed in the area between Etaples and St Pol on 4 September [Raggy over ONE YEAR from when they were formed!!!]. It was sent into action on 26 September.

Joins up in August 1914 with the "lad from Cannock" who reportedly died 18 months after joining up (That is what is states in the article) August 1915 is 12 months later and January 1916 makes 18 months.

Joins up December 1914, December 1915 is 12 months and June 1916 makes 18 months

You are proposing August 1916 or December 1916 which makes 24 months surely if the respective start points are August 1914 and December 1914.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:48 PM

"Did not go to France until June or July 1917 - Wounded during the Battle of Passchendaele in September 1917."
So what?
The reports were that a day at Passchendaele was eqivelent to a year in real life
Still denigrating the experience of "lying" soldiers who gave their lives in the trenches to support the Generals who stayed behind the lines and sent the wrong ammunition
"Gawd bless the officer class" eh?
You're a real establishment bootlicker - every galley should have one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM

This would be Harry Patch who was Eighteen years and four months old when he signed up.

The Harry Patch who said:

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Charles Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:28 AM

Yes Raggy that's the chap. The chap who also said this:

Shooting to kill

I never knew Bob [Harry's friend and gunner] [Note that Raggy - this interview was recorded 81 years after the events in question - Harry REMEMBERS the names of those he served with who were killed - yet Stan Hollis didn't - "A lad from Cannock"] to use that [Lewis] gun to kill. If he used that gun at all, it was about two feet off the ground and he would wound them in the legs. He wouldn't kill them if he could help it.

[A German soldier] came to me with a rifle and a fixed bayonet. He had no ammunition, otherwise he could have shot us. He came towards us. I had to bring him down. First of all, I shot him in the right shoulder. He dropped the rifle and the bayonet. He came on. His idea, I suppose, was to kick the gun if he could into the mud, so making it useless. But anyway, he came on and for our own safety, I had to bring him down. I couldn't kill him. He was a man I didn't know. I didn't know his language. I couldn't talk to him. I shot him above the ankle, above the knee. He said something to me in German. God knows what it was. But for him the war was over.

He would be picked up by a stretcher bearer. He would have his wounds treated. He would be put into a prisoner-of-war camp. At the end of the war, he would go back to his family. Now, six weeks after that, a fellow countryman of his pulled the lever of the gun that fired the rocket that killed my three mates, and wounded me. If I had met that German soldier after my three mates had been killed, I'd have no trouble at all in killing him. [Which German Soldier do You think Harry Patch was talking about Raggy? - It wasn't the one who fired the rocket - Harry Patch was talking about the man he deliberately wounded.]

Oh and Raggy here is something else Harry Patch said in that interview:

Losing friends [Like Sydney Holis's best friend "The lad from Cannock"]

The night we caught it, we were in the front line and we were going back. We had taken the German front line, the German support line and we were coming back from the German support through the German old front line. We had to cross what was the old No Man's Land. It was crossing there that a rocket burst amongst us. It killed my three mates, it wounded me. We were on open ground.

September 22nd, half-past ten at night. That's when I lost them. That's my Remembrance Day. Armistice Day, you remember the thousands of others who died.

You see Raggy, 81 years after, having never told any of this to a living soul. Harry Patch vividly remembers names, dates, times and location as clear as a bell - do you know why Raggy? Because he is recalling something that he actually experienced, something that actually happened to him and when he brings it to mind I bet just for an instant as the thought comes to him he experiences and feels the pain all over again.

I think Nigel Parsons has it spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:54 AM

You are clutching at straws in order to preserve your stance. You are quite prepared to call a man, a man you never knew, a man who fought in the trenches so you could exercise the freedom, a liar.

That says far more about you than it does him. You carry on kowtowing to your officers and gentlemen, it's about all you're fit for.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:22 AM

You are clutching at straws in order to preserve your stance. You are quite prepared to call a man, a man you never knew, a man who fought in the trenches so you could exercise the freedom, a liar.

Once more, none of us have heard from that man in the trenches.
We have heard from a 'news' agency, who heard it from his son, who heard it from the man in the trenches.

If it is true, we can never be sure.
If it is false (whether in whole, or in part)then we do not know at what point the untruth entered the sequence above.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:37 AM

Do you read books Nigel.

Does the person who writes a history book for example have to experienced personally the events they write about.

The shelves would be much emptier if that was the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:46 AM

Do you read books Nigel.
Does the person who writes a history book for example have to experienced personally the events they write about.
The shelves would be much emptier if that was the case.

I read many books.
I do not accept that anything in 'black and white' is actually the truth.
If you have that belief then you are more of a fool than I took you for.
Serious histories will often have bibliographies giving links to first hand accounts if they wish the details to be taken as accurate.

I hope you don't believe that Richard Sharpe was instrumental in British victories in the Peninsular wars (and others)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:56 AM

Exactly my point Nigel, you read and you consider what is written.

Some people on here dismiss, out of hand, everything that doesn't fit in with their preconceived ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:00 AM

Not all that good at reasoning or logic are you Raggy. Like your other "usual suspect" pals all you are interested in doing here is argue. This you normally do in your passive-aggressive mode from a position of clueless ignorance.

Tell me Raggy - 81 years after the event one "old soldier" can remember vividly names, exact time, date and location of what must count as being the most traumatic event in his life. The contender for "proving" that summary executions took place could not name his best friend of 18 months who was shot right in front of him? He could not name the time, date or place of this murder by an Officer he must have known and served under for months - I'm sorry Raggy but irrespective of how you look at it that just simply does not add up. It just becomes another unsubstantiated story that provides proof of nothing.

As for "clutching at straws" Raggy, the only person clutching at straws in this discussion Raggy is you:

On the sparse information, which is very vague and general in nature, contained in the article we have a time frame dictated by the 18 months specified on from some point in time from August 1914 and December 1914 when Sydney John Hollis and best mate, "The lad from Cannock", volunteered. You have consistently refused to accept that the period we are talking about details a time when the British Army on the western front were engaged in no offensive operations - which means that nobody was being sent "over the top". Instead you keep putting up information that just does not fit.

Harry Patch can hold any view he likes - he lived through it, fought through it, he earned that right - so did Sydney John Hollis. That does not mean that others, far removed, who were not there, who did not live through it, who have never served in their lives, have any right to take unfounded and unsubstantiated stories and use them, without any sort of investigation to accuse people who are now no longer able to defending themselves of murder - That is just simply not only not right, but totally unjust particularly since the motive for doing so seems to be based on "class".

Difference between me and thee Raggy is that you are ideologically all too prepared to argue for "myths" that fit your idiotic and totally unrepresentative stereotypes ( or those of your "usual suspect" pals) without any sort of critical assessment. I, on the other hand, will examine anything I am told, I will look for substantiation/verification, I will look at the event critically and seek proof. I will base my opinion on fact not fantasy - so far in this discussion you have not been able to refute a single thing I have stated - not one single fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:19 AM

I, on the other hand, will examine anything I am told

But, surely, you don't need to be told anything do you? I thought you already knew it all!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:04 AM

Ehmmm No Gnome - I didn't have to be told anything by any "professional politician" or media outlet how vote in a general election or referendum - but by all means keep chipping in with out of context posts and I will keep correcting you.

By the way gnome if you do your own investigating it is to discover and evaluate the information you uncover in order to make your own mind up about something.

by the way gnome aren't you pleased that Chamberlain did things the way he did. That gave your Dad somewhere to run to, that meant you were born in a free and democratic society instead of Poland under the Communists. You were allowed to shuffle your little fat self around being a union activist (Or was that one of your other pals, possibly a few of them) to your heart's content - had you tried the same thing in Poland they'd have shot you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:31 AM

but by all means keep chipping in with out of context posts

Just remind of of the context then Teribus.

Going back to my earlier point neither you, I nor anyone can hope to guess what would have happened to my Dad had the war gone differently. You are trying to extrapolate a single result from a vast array of possibilities. It is not possible. And you are changing the subject so watch out for the Wrath of Keith :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:51 AM

can anyone remember what all this shit about the 1st world war has to do with britain making up its mind in the election?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

Hold on there, Al. The first antisemitism post will be along any minute...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 02:30 PM

Well Big Al you don't have to go back all that far into the midst of time of this thread to find this in answer to your question about how we got onto WWI = do we Shaw?

Steve Shaw - 03 Jul 17 - 05:59 AM

Jaysus, Teribus. You'll listen to the Spitfire pilots for heir accounts but you won't listen to the tommies in the trenches

We got onto Spitfire pilots, RAF records, etc because our pal Jom was wittering on about Britain licking Hitler's arse (Well Jom by the end of April 1945 Hitler's are had been well and truly kicked and the first step on the road to that happening was taken in September in Munich 1938 - In Dublin in May 1945 good ol' Dev was most concerned about putting signatures in Hitler's book of condolence in the German Embassy)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:17 PM

"I nor anyone can hope to guess what would have happened to my Dad had the war gone differently" - Gnome

Let's see now Gnome:

1: Hitler gets his War according to plan in 1938
2: Czechoslovakia is invaded and taken over in 1938
3: Hitler gets his hands on the Czech armaments industry
4: Hitler attacks Holland, Belgium and France and defeats them using the same plan as was used on 10th May 1940 (Oddly enough Gnome the same plan as devised by Schlieffen in 1905) - The results most certainly would have been the same most likely within a shorter time scale.
5: So in 46 days or less, Hitler is standing on the cliffs of the Pas de Calais looking through the white cliffs of Dover - only this time there are no radar masts, and no Spitfires. There has also been no "Miracle of Dunkirk" the Germans have the entire BEF "in the bag" ( A fate its 1914 version did not share, under the bumbling and incompetent leadership of Sir John French and Douglas Haig - they managed to keep their BEF fighting against superior odds didn't they Gnome).
6: Germany through air superiority defeats Britain in the Battle of Britain and having no army, or equipment to defend itself in the event of a German invasion Great Britain is forced to ask for terms.
7: After a short period of consolidation Hitler puts into operation his attack on Russia, to get there of course he must get rid of the minor inconvenience that is Poland. Poland, who were perfectly happy to grab bits of Czechoslovakia, have no allies and are surrounded by enemies Germany, Hungary and Russia. As happened in 1939 Poland is overrun and defeated by Germany, Russia and Hungary in one month and five days - Poland is no more.
8: Your Dad Gnome cannot get to Britain (No point) has the following probable avenues open to him:

a) He gets killed by the Germans either in the attack or during the ensuing occupation
b) He gets killed by the Russians in the attack or during their occupation (That was the fate of quite a number of Poles)
c) He survives to work out what would be a fairly short life as slave labour for the Germans.
d) Escapes to somewhere else either to be killed as the Germans attack Russia - but Gnome is born, if ever, elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:50 PM

You forgot the fire that wiped out the German hierarchy, the weapons of mass destruction invented by a Belian scientist pissed off about his wife leaving him for Hans Schmidt and the alien invasion.

If you can indulge in imaginary scenarios, so can I. But I have a better imagination. :-)

Now, remind us again in what context you said you did not need to be told anything. Oh, hang on, I'll save you the trouble. It was because you did not need to listen to anyone to let you know that the EU was corrupt and a waste of space. So, on the one hand you berate anyone who has fixed views and is not open to new ideas yet on the other...

I'll let you work out the rest.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:49 PM

Oh, and why the fuck are you asking me stupid questions about WW1 when I have already said I know naff all about it. I have never argued about any point of fact you or your mucker have put forward in relation to any war. I guess you must be getting tired and over-emotional.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:59 PM

Nothing imaginary about it apart from Hitler getting his war in 1938 - Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini prevented that but they only succeeded in delaying the start of the war - But shall we run through them Gnome?

1: Hitler gets his War according to plan in 1938 - Hitler got his war in 1939 - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

2: Czechoslovakia is invaded and taken over in 1938 - This happened although an armed invasion was not required - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

3: Hitler gets his hands on the Czech armaments industry - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

4: Hitler attacks Holland, Belgium and France and defeats them using the same plan as was used on 10th May 1940 (Oddly enough Gnome the same plan as devised by Schlieffen in 1905) - The results most certainly would have been the same most likely within a shorter time scale. - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

5: So in 46 days or less, Hitler is standing on the cliffs of the Pas de Calais looking through the white cliffs of Dover - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

It would be a Fact that had the above happened in 1938 there undoubtedly would have been no radar masts, and no Spitfires.

Without the Spitfire what was known as the "Miracle of Dunkirk" would not have happened, with complete air superiority the German Luftwaffe would have had free rein over the channel and over the beaches. Even as it was the British only expected to lift off 45,000 men at the most - Fact. With no successful evacuation the entire BEF "in the bag" would have ended up as prisoners of war.

By the bye it is also a FACT that under the leadership of Sir John French the far smaller BEF of 1914 engaged and managed to delay German forces that were far superior in numbers and in artillery while still maintaining themselves as a fighting force - something the BEF of 1939/1940 failed to do.

6: Germany through air superiority defeats Britain in the Battle of Britain and having no army, or equipment to defend itself in the event of a German invasion Great Britain is forced to ask for terms.

Without radar and without the Spitfire and Hurricane Squadrons Great Britain WOULD have lost the Battle of Britain - nobody with any knowledge of the period would challenge that statement - so no imagination required here either Gnome.

7: After a short period of consolidation Hitler puts into operation his attack on Russia, to get there of course he must get rid of the minor inconvenience that is Poland. Poland, who were perfectly happy to grab bits of Czechoslovakia, have no allies and are surrounded by enemies Germany, Hungary and Russia. As happened in 1939 Poland is overrun and defeated by Germany, Russia and Hungary in one month and five days - Poland is no more. - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

8: Your Dad Gnome cannot get to Britain - Fact - with Great Britain a Nazi Puppet State there would be point in your father fleeing to Great Britain would there Gnome - no imagination required or employed in working that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 03:07 AM

Nothing imaginary about it apart from Hitler getting his war in 1938

But your whole scenarion starting with the war in 1938 and ending with my Dad being shot is based on something that did not happen. Let me let you in on a bit of secret here. The war did not start until 1939. Your whole story is based on something that did not happen and never will. In other words it is all fantasy.

I must say though I admire how you have learned to much fact and fiction seamlessly. I think you have learned a lot from the Daily Heil.

Fact - with Great Britain a Nazi Puppet State there would be point in your father fleeing to Great Britain

Couple of things wrong with that. Main thing is that it did not happen, Britain did not become a Nazi puppet state did it. It is not a fact at all is it? The other thing is that my Dad did not flee to Britain. He joined the British army in Italy and I have no idea how he ended up in Italy. He did not arrive in Britain until after the war. Still, it shows that your imagination is improving. Glad i can help with that.

:D tG


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 03:08 AM

much fact and fiction..? MIX fact and fiction.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 08:55 AM

What part of the following did you fail to understand Gnome?

"Nothing imaginary about it apart from Hitler getting his war in 1938"

Apart from that everything I have stated did happen in a scenario where both France and Britain KNEW FOR CERTAIN that War was inevitable and after they had had 12 to 20 months to prepare for Hitler's onslaught in the West. For Great Britain those 20 months were vital, those 20 months meant the difference between a Great Britain being defenceless and a Great Britain that held vital advantages in defence of the air space that was so essential for the Germans to win in order to defeat Britain and knock her out of the War: "Hitler knows he must break us on this Island or lose the War" - Winston Churchill

Had Hitler got his war in 1938 then Great Britain would have lost the Battle of Britain in late 1938 or early 1939 - no speculation, no imagination required as the tools that proved essential to defeat the vastly numerically superior Luftwaffe would simply not have been in place and combat details relating to encounters between RAF aircraft of the type we would have had to rely on and German fighters in 1939 clearly showed that they wouldn't have stood a chance of defending Britain, as stated no imagination just plain simple FACT.

Czechoslovakia was sacrificed so that formal alliances were made with Poland in the hope of deterring Hitler. War in 1938 would have run in the following order (Which is what the German General Staff WANTED):

1: Invade and occupy the whole of Czechoslovakia in concert with Poland and Hungary.

2: Invade Holland, Belgium and France simultaneously

3: Battle of Britain - No radar, No Spitfires, No Army - Britain would have been defeated and taken out of the war without any need for an invasion

4: Consolidate the gains and prepare for War in the East

5: Invade and take over Poland in concert with the Soviets and with Hungary.

6: Consolidate the gains and prepare to attack Russia before 1944 - No imagination required there either Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:02 AM

Apart from that everything I have stated did happen

Including my Dad being shot by either the Germans or the Russians?

8: Your Dad Gnome cannot get to Britain (No point) has the following probable avenues open to him:

a) He gets killed by the Germans either in the attack or during the ensuing occupation
b) He gets killed by the Russians in the attack or during their occupation (That was the fate of quite a number of Poles)
c) He survives to work out what would be a fairly short life as slave labour for the Germans.
d) Escapes to somewhere else either to be killed as the Germans attack Russia

Wow! How did I get here then? Did I imagine meeting him or something?

What are you on? I want some!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:40 AM

You got to be here you clown because your father fled Poland and had a safe haven to run to - i.e. Great Britain in 1939/1940. That safe haven existed BECAUSE Hitler was robbed of the chance of sticking to the optimum plan set out by the German General Staff of having his war in the west in 1938 immediately after taking over Czechoslovakia. Hitler's schedule was delayed by 11 months and the Invasion of Poland was the tripwire that tumbled Europe into a Second World War in 1939.

Now then Gnome had the option of going to France and England not been available - where else would your Dad have fled to? We know they initially went out through Hungary and Romania then by sea to France and on to England. But if the order of countries invaded instead of being Poland, then Holland/Belgium/France had been Czechoslovakia, then Holland/Belgium/France then there would have been no chance at all of your Dad turning up on these shores after the inevitable invasion of Poland AFTER the defeat of France and Britain, would there Gnome? That being the undoubted case, it would leave the following options as to the possible fate of your father:

a) He gets killed by the Germans either in the attack or during the ensuing occupation
b) He gets killed by the Russians in the attack or during their occupation (That was the fate of quite a number of Poles)
c) He survives to work out what would be a fairly short life as slave labour for the Germans.
d) Escapes to somewhere else (Romania, or Bulgaria) to possibly be killed as the Germans attack Russia

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 11:00 AM

Yes, the possible fate IF this had happened and IF that had happened and IF the wind was in the right direction. It is a story, a fable, a fantasy. It never happened. It never will. It is a made up scenario and it is making you look foolish.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:05 AM

Sorry Gnome but you are wrong:

Yes, the possible fate IF the war had started in 1938. All the rest would have played out in 1938/39 exactly as it actually did in 1940 as far as Czechoslovakia, Holland, Belgium and France were concerned. Without Chain Home and the Spitfires and Hurricanes Britain WOULD HAVE lost the Battle of Britain, no if about it, and, after a short period of consolidation Hitler would then have turned East, first invading Poland and then attacking Soviet Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:36 AM

I am sure it could well have happened like that Teribus but nothing in this life is certain. What you are failing to allow for is unforeseen circumstances. There is nothing wrong with that. None of us can because they are, well, unforeseen. And the war still did not start in 1938 and my Dad was not killed in Poland. Both due to circumstances not foreseen by the German high command!

Out of interest you may be able to help me map my Dad's journey if you would. Not on this thread though - PM?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:40 AM

"but nothing in this life is certain. What you are failing to allow for is unforeseen circumstances. There is nothing wrong with that. None of us can because they are, well, unforeseen."

Unforeseen circumstances are real time, they do not exist in retrospect which is why 20x20 hindsight is so perfect.

The "unforeseen" circumstance in 1938 was that Britain and France with the help of Italy were prepared to negotiate and come to an agreement - It meant sacrificing Czechoslovakia.

Hitler got the tanks he needed to invade and conquer Holland, Belgium and France.

The "unforeseen" circumstance in 1940 was the effectiveness of Great Britain's integrated air defence system which allowed ~700 fighters to effectively deny air superiority to, and defeat, three German "Air Fleets" of 3,500 aircraft.

The "unforeseen" circumstance was the use in the Spring of 1940 of 100 Octane fuel that boosted the performance of both the Spitfire and the Hurricane so that both could successfully take on any German fighter (Using the same fuel in a Gladiator would not have done the same job)

To try, in retrospect to suggest "unforeseen" circumstances that could have effected the outcome of the German onslaught in the West is ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:00 AM

Unforeseen circumstances are real time, they do not exist in retrospect

Exactly, Teribus. And if those unforeseen circumstances that you describe had not have occurred then no one can possibly know what else would have arisen. Which is why alt histories are not an exact science.

To try, in retrospect to suggest "unforeseen" circumstances that could have effected the outcome of the German onslaught in the West is ridiculous.

It is indeed. But so is saying that something that did not happen was a certainty.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:06 PM

I can state with absolute certainty Gnome that had the RAF had to fight the Luftwaffe over the skies of Kent in late 1938/early 1939 with no Chain Home and relying on Gloster Gladiator fighters then the German Luftwaffe would have won. That didn't actually happen, but anybody with any knowledge of the period, combat flying and the performance and capabilities of the aircraft in question would tell you the same as I have done - Great Britain would have lost the Battle of Britain if it had been fought under such conditions. It didn't solely because of what Chamberlain did to secure an agreement in Munich in 1938.

If German armed forces managed to ramp through the defences of three countries fully prepared for war in 1940 in just 46 days, just think how much easier and quicker it would have been for them to do against countries totally unprepared for war in 1938. Outcome never in doubt just the time it would have taken.

No guesswork, no imagination required.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

This thread has been diverted by the usual crown muttering nonsense. The basic premise was that had war been declared sooner than 1939 Britain would have been defeated. Teribus has valiantly spelt the whys and wherefore of this umpteen times but the usual crown insist on arguing the toss ad nauseum and throwing up all sorts of irrelevancies.

The RAF is clear about the outcome had war been declared earlier, inferior aircraft, no embryonic radar, no command and control system-defeat pretty much certain.
The Imperial War Museum takes an almost identical stance:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/8-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-battle-of-britain

They seem simple enough concepts to grasp. Those who have the facts and figures and are the experts agree, Why do you have such a problem understanding them? You would argue the sun sets in the morning and rises at night just so you can see your drivelling in print.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:04 PM

The basic premise was that had war been declared sooner than 1939

Absolutely. And that basic premise is wrong. War was not declared before 1939. It therefore follows that everything based on that premise is also flawed. No matter how you wrap it up and no matter how many poor quality insults your limited imaginations can come up with it simply did not happen. That is the fact. All else is irrelevant. Is that so difficult for you to understand? If so, I suggest you get a good quality history book. One written by someone who is still alive and meets the approval of everyone. Buy it from a high street book store and then check what date the second world war began.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:06 PM

Oh, and BTW, this thread had already been diverted into discussing alternative histories. Not by me either. I suggest you check the title to see what it should be about and then complain to whoever diverted it in the first place.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:54 PM

Dave, the author also must needs be "eminent". Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:18 AM

Sorry :-(

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:10 AM

"this thread had already been diverted ............ I suggest you check the title to see what it should be about and then complain to whoever diverted it in the first place." - Dave the Gnome - 08 Jul 17 - 06:06 PM

Ah so diversions into hill walks, holidays, wild flowers, recipes and getting pissed with "the good lady wife" are OK but other diversions by others are not. Sorry of course I forgot "Some animals are more equal than others".

As to who created the diversion Gnome:

- The diversion onto the Second World War and Munich was down to Jom (Who if you'll notice just lit the blue touch-paper and retired).
- The diversion onto the First World War was down to "Good Man" Shaw.

On the first of those I think it has been successfully argued that had Chamberlain not acted as he did over Czechoslovakia then Britain would have been defeated had there been a war in 1938. You have been given the reasons why and you have not been able to counter a single point made. All claims made and the reasons given were shown to be 100% correct as bourn out in the events of May 1940.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:44 AM

"The basic premise was that had war been declared sooner than 1939 Britain would have been defeated."
No it was not
The premise was that if Hitler had been stopped before Germany was unprepared to go to war, the war might never have happened
The Jackal Pack has skirted around that fact and your misrepresentation has added to the avoidance.
To the flag-waggers, the war was against Germany, when in fact it was against a system of Government that the Establishment had a sneaking respect for and, up to the point where it got out of control, were happy to let have a free hand - some would argue, a natural development of that system.
Our leaders went CAPS in HAND to Nazi Germany - some of them even prepared future generations to DO THE SAME
Those who realised the dangers of the rise of Fascism and went off to fight it in Spain were criminalised as PREMATURE ANTI-FASCISTS and were given a difficult time when they returned home
Even 80 years after the events, when we know fully the HORRORS of FASCISM the Establishment arse-kissers still describe the heroism and foresight of those who thought fascism might be stopped as fighting in "someone else's wars"
Appeasement to fascism, like the poor, is always with us.
The same clowns confine their arguments dealing with the consequences of Britain having done nothing to stop Hitler until it was too late.
Lets's face it, had Hitler not overstepped the mark by climbing the fence and crapping in our garden, he would have been a welcome addition to the Capitalist system - a stable Government with a firm hand to keep the oiks in their place
Members of the Establishment were already forming an ALTERNATIVE GOVERNMENT ready for the day when "Herr Hitler" won his place in history
The hurried, last-ditch preparations for war were as much the consequences of Establishment inaction as they were down to the success and ruthlessness of Nazi leadership and the blood of those who died in the Holocaust is equally shared between them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:49 AM

Didn't retire Terubus - a week-long traditional music school took precedence took precedence over arguing with an arm-in-the-air moron
I introduced nothing here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:59 AM

Ah so diversions into hill walks, holidays, wild flowers, recipes and getting pissed with "the good lady wife" are OK but other diversions by others are not.

It's not me complaining Teribus, it is your protégé, Iains. Take it up with him.

As to who created the diversion Gnome:

- The diversion onto the Second World War and Munich was down to Jom (Who if you'll notice just lit the blue touch-paper and retired).
- The diversion onto the First World War was down to "Good Man" Shaw.


So, as I said, it was not me. Thanks.

You have been given the reasons why and you have not been able to counter a single point made.

I have quite plainly and successfully countered the point that the war was started in 1938 and that my Dad was killed before I was conceived.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:06 AM

Now the coloured paintbox is out from Jimmy it is probably time to move along.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:21 AM

The premise being argued Gnome was that had the war started in 1938 your father would not have been able to travel to a defeated Britain and would possibly have been killed. That this scenario did not happen was down solely to the fact that Hitler was robbed of his opportunity to go to war in the West by the actions taken by Chamberlain, Daladier and by Mussolini - "arse licking" I think Jom called it, by "a Prime Minister whose name no-one dare mention".

Oh by the way Jom, those pictures of the Duke of Windsor - he could just as easily been simply waving to the crowds, which I see as being more likely as no-one else in any of the groups photographed, who were undoubtedly Nazis are saluting.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:52 AM

"he could just as easily been simply waving to the crowds, "
Sure he could, just as his continuing friendship with Herr Hitler could have been just being neighbourly
His fascism is now a part of British History
The ahnds in the air of the Windsor sprogs don't leave much room for re-interpretation
Still "Jom" sill a sign of the insecurity of the inferior
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 06:10 AM

Sign of insecurity of the inferior? You did sign yourself off as "Jom" didn't you? That is where I got it from - tell me Jom what is the root cause of your insecurity and sense of inferiority? Would it have anything to do with being the stereotypical whinging scouser?

The "Windsor sprogs" were taking the piss Jom - those photographs have been fully explained before:

"Regarding the Balmoral footage, historians have stressed that Hitler was a much derided figure in Britain in the early 1930s, and that the film appears to show the Queen Mother making fun of the Nazi salute." - you do like to keep dragging up your dearly held myths and misrepresentations don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 08:09 AM

The premise being argued Gnome was that had the war started in 1938 your father would not have been able to travel to a defeated Britain and would possibly have been killed.

That is not how it started though was it Teribus? However, I am magninimous enough to accept that this is what you have now changed it to. Nice to see the 'only options open' to 'possibly killed'. There is still no proof that anything that could have happened would have happened and there never will be. Still, changing things to 'possibilities' is a good start.

Thanks

DtG

BTW - Have you given Iains a slap for whinging about changing the subject?