BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:25 PM

No, but anyone earning £18 000pa would not be asked for a significant repayment.

Considerably different to your previous
The current system already provides free tuition.
Only those who become wealthy and successful as a result of their university education then have to contribute to it.

The system does NOT provide free tuition. It is paid for and if the student or his family cannot afford to pay they take a loan.. Anyone earning above £18000 is expected to start paying that loan off. Just who was being dishonest, Keith?

You two always get personal and nasty if anyone dares question anything you say.

Just what part of my argument do you find "personal and nasty". Personal maybe as I cannot help but point out we seem to be singing from different hymn sheets. Note that I have only ever said different. Not worse. It was not me who commented that someones morality was shit was it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:11 PM

NOT REALLY MY JOB BUT....there you go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:17 PM

Jim, if you know of British firms hiring below the National Living Wage (or Minimum Wage for younger staff) you really should inform HMRC. Its their job to enforce this. And they won't go out and look.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:16 PM

Yes there plenty of people basing their campaign for leave on an immigration halt. So what? What a referendum decides is based on what's on the ballot paper, nothing more.

All kinds of different ways out of the EU were mentioned in the campaign. The Norway Option was in fact presented in the campaign as a possible settlement, specifically to appeal to people who were worried about losing freedom of movement.

There were leftwing leavers whose priority was freedom from restrictions on how emplyers could be regulated under EU law, and immigation wasn't their priority.

There is in fact no power under EU rules to prevent states requiring and enforcing minimum wage levels. The potential possibility of such restrictions would be a strong reason for justifying leaving memnership.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:05 PM

You two always get personal and nasty if anyone dares question anything you say.
You imagine your pronouncements should all be received with reverence and unquestioning acceptance.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:02 PM

Steve, I have repeated that fact and question because no-one has produced an explanation for a group of you always and only singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring the worse crimes of all its neighbours.
It is the only Jewish State.
Is that the problem?

Dave,
So then, Keith, do you believe that anyone earning £18,000pa is wealthy as your post seems to suggest?

No, but anyone earning £18 000pa would not be asked for a significant repayment.
They would only repay about twenty quid pa.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 12:10 PM

Been there with Keith on that one before, Dave. It's his trademark. He gets beaten in argument, waits a week or two then comes back to gnaw on the same well-chewed bone, hoping we won't remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM

...because if you do, that is a different morality, if you don't we speak a different language and, in either case, I am pretty sure we occupy different worlds.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:45 AM

So then, Keith, do you believe that anyone earning £18,000pa is wealthy as your post seems to suggest?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

"those exploiting labour in the UK are not rich UK landowners,"
Stop inventing things - nobudy mentioned "rich" or "landowners" other than you
It is British firms who are hiring under the rate, the British establishment allowing to do it.
That the poorer people are going to the cheapest labour is understandably, but I have always found that is the wealthier customers who fight the hardest to get the cheapest deal
Cheap labour can be dealt with by enforcing a minimum living wage - instead, our mob prefer to target immigrants - much more vote-friendly
British workers looking for work stand to be the greatest losers following the Brexit fiasco - what's new?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:01 AM

Er, those wages are paid by employers in the UK, Teribus, not by foreign gangmasters, neither do the workers themselves insist on low wages. "Immigrants driving down wages" was just one mantra in the referendum out campaign. Just as big a lie as the £350 million a week bus campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

Dave's "trite and boring litany" is right on the money when it comes to you, Keith. And you're a fine one to talk. I mean, how many times in the last few days have YOU trotted out this nonsense or similar in another thread?

"It is the only Jewish state.
Is that the problem?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:54 AM

"nothing whatever to do with "cheap labour"

Hang on didn't Corbyn say during the election campaign that he was going to:

a) Accede to EU requirement for free movement of labour

b) Stop foreign contract labour gangs from working in the UK undercutting UK rates of pay.

This presents a direct contradiction and b) would be regarded as being illegal by the EU as b) is a restraint of trade within the EU.

Unfortunately for Carroll & Co., who wish to present a different picture, those exploiting labour in the UK are not rich UK landowners, they are foreign gang bosses who "legally" contract labour in their country of origin then ship them to work in the UK on wages below the minimum wage in the UK. And according to EU Law nobody can do anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:29 AM

Dave, you have posted your trite and boring little litany again.
There was no issue of morality, language or space travel in my post.

On plan 1 you only have to pay 9% of earnings above £18000, so you only repay significant amounts if you do become wealthy and successful.

If you earned £19000 you would only repay £90.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:05 AM

"Nobody did - it wasn't on the ballot."
It was implicit in the campaign Dave - hence Usick's racist poster depicting a huge queue of immigrants ready to take our jobs, houses and women
Immmediately the result was announced, people were approacded and asked when they were going "home" and there was a sharp rise in racist incidents.
It may not have been on the ballot but it was on the cards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:43 AM

Repeatedly it gets claimed that people "voted for an end to immigration". Nobody did - it wasn't on the ballot. There were many other reasons people may have voted to leave the EU. For example remaining in it could make bringing railways back into public ownership, or restrict a government's powers to limit the actions of employers.

An end to free movement for people from other EU countries, and to our own freedom of movement beyond our borders, was clearly what many of the 52% wanted, but there's no reason to assume that so many felt that way that they made up a majority of the overall vote.

A Norway type outcome in which freedom of movement remains, but there are fewer constraints when it comes to the kind of things I mentioned could be possible, and would be quite compatible with the outcome of the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

Nothing dishonest about my statement Keith. It was my opinion of ake's politics. No more, no less.

As to Only those who become wealthy and successful as a result of their university education then have to contribute to it. Well...

You have to start repaying the loans if you earn more that £18000 on plan 1. If that is your definition of wealthy I am afraid I must remind you...

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:44 AM

Dave,
Ake believes that offering all young people a chance to go to university regardless of their financial situation is playing politics. His is the politics of envy.

Dishonest Dave,
The current system already provides free tuition.
Only those who become wealthy and successful as a result of their university education then have to contribute to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:32 AM

"Mr Corbyn trying to build a new society built on cheap immigrant Labour."
Free movement is a nasty "Brexitspeak" invention to denigrate immigration and immigrants.
People have always utilised the option to wander the world to seek work - the Irish to America, the Welsh to Patagonia, the Scots to Canada, the English to every corner of the Empire....
The E.U. made it a co-operative enterprise and beneficial to both the immigrants and the host nations - nothing whatever to do with "cheap labour"
Cheap labour is about predatory employers being a fee hand by opp
opptunistic governments.
Brexit was floated on the racist policy of "too many foreigners" and its main advocate was a beer-swilling moron who founded a now discredited party.
Leaving Europe may have satisfied the basic instincts of the Little Englanders in stopping immigration, but it has put the future of the British economy at risked, had damaged the Union to the extent of putting the Good Friday Agreement at risk and it has made Britain dependent on imports made by countries producing goods and near slave labour condidtions
And still we have people clambering to the top of the mound waving the Union Jack!
Sheesh!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

I think we're at cross purposes "D", I agree with your analogy, butmy point is that Mr Corbyn has apparently taken the idea of a second referendum off the table and I would not be surprised to see a degree of co operation between Mrs May and Mr Corbyn in securing a satisfactory Brexit.

The main driver for Brexit was the promise to end "Free movement" and as a socialist cannot see Mr Corbyn trying to build a new society built on cheap immigrant Labour.

If we are unwilling to accept "free Movement", IMO there will be no deal and we must walk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:51 AM

playing politics with the aspirations of middle class youth

There you have it. Ake believes that offering all young people a chance to go to university regardless of their financial situation is playing politics. His is the politics of envy. He never had the chances that our children have so they should not either. Some socialist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:07 PM

Trust me, Barwell was hated and deemed corrupt in Croydon, because he was palsy-walsy with developers. I was there from time to time helping with the successful campaign to get rid of the little snit. Walk up London Road and ask the people you meet about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:43 PM

Yes, I know, ake, but that is a different thing. If I support Labour and Labour support Brexit it does not follow I support Brexit.

Let me illustrate with an noncontentious example. Suppose I want to buy a used car and have a choice of three. One is perfect for my needs but has plastic seats I hate. The second also has plastic seats and I dislike it for other reasons as well. A third has cloth seats, which I prefer, but has very high mileage, oil leaks and so on.

If I buy the near perfect car it would be completely flawed logic to deduce I prefer plastic seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:19 PM

DMcG....Mr Corbyn has stated categorically that he sees the referendum result as "the will of the people".
Mr Corbyn has traditionally been against the EU and all its works.
I believe Mr Corbyn is more of a socialist than he is a "liberal" and I believe he has a vision for the coming decades. I think he is the right man at the wrong time.

the economy will have to get much more fragile before his vision will be acceptable to the uk population.

Mr Corbyn disappointingly does not seem to have any qualms regarding playing politics with the aspirations of middle class youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:49 PM

Well, now there is a thing Stanron. The Bulligdon bully boys fucked up good and proper when they misjudged the mood of the population over the EU referendum. One of their number, a certain BoJo, was sacrificed on the altar by the living Spitting Image puppet Gove after pig sticker general fell on his sword. This gave May a chance. Now you are saying those same bully boys dislike May that much that they have helped their opponents to gain ground over her and therefore their own party. Murdoch has now insisted that the puppet gets back in power and May gets in bed with the nasty party.

And this is a good demonstration of a strong and stable party is it? Carry on this way please. Maybe you can get Murdoch to run an 'I love Corbyn' section in the Scum?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:03 PM

Could it not be that at least 50% of Corbyn's 'success' was due to the Bullingdon Club members and the Eton set showing TM who is really in charge of the Tory party?

Perhaps they didn't expect things to go quite so badly for her, but she had the same 'eyes in the headlights' look in her face towards the end of the campaign that David Davies had towards the end of his leadership battle with David Cameron. I imagine both had been told what was going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:52 PM

less well off financially...the common good

Start with the billionaire bankers, landlords and company directors on that one ake. See where it gets you.

Bobad. Neither Callahan nor Kinnock had the odds stacked against them like Corbyn had. The mainstream media and people like yourself have spent months trying to destroy him but he has turned the polls round from a 20-odd point Tory lead to almost nothing. He may not have won the election but he has certainly cocked a snook at you lot.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:01 PM

Seen on Twitter:

1979 - Callaghan 269 seats, resigned
1992 - Kinnock 271 seats, resigned
2017 - Corbyn 262 seats, claims victory & orders the winner to resign

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:36 PM

Similarly in England, a vote for Corbyn is definitely a vote for Brexit.

That is a very odd view, ake, but I have heard from quite a few people who werw prominent in the Leave campaign. It is completely untrue and I offer myself and I presume Steve Shaw as counter examples.

Labour put forward lots of proposals, the Conversatives substantially less. People voted for whichever they thought closest to their view. That means there were policies we definitely wanted and others we definitely did not want. One cross is not sophisticated enough to indicate which bits we liked and which bits we didnt. So no, it is utterly false to claim people who voted Labour - or Conservative come to that - voted for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:34 PM

"explain the ding ding - i'm on the bus."
Though it was self - explanatory - sorry
The Scouse equivalent of "I'm all right Jack"
" its those who can't find work. "
Nope - it's the whole shebang now.
"Bursaries "
The Telegraph again
"University has never been more expensive. Tuition fees have risen to a maximum £9,000 per year, but with living costs included a three-year degree could set you back as much as £75,000.
Many universities offer their own scholarships and bursaries to lessen the financial burden. But with these massively oversubscribed, it is well worth casting the net a little wider."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/student-finance/9834882/University-scholarships-10-unusual-student-bursaries.html

£75,000 is Monopoly money to most working people - that used to be what you won on the football pools
A PIPE DREAM FOR SOME CAREERS
You really do need to get (out of your bubble) more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:41 AM

What we need are less mediocre students doing useless courses...and more workers who actually produce something.

Invest in our labour force, 1 years compulsory work experience for all school leavers, a life on benefits not an option, we need more homes, invest in apprenticeships, build houses for rent only, mixed working practices including seasonal agricultural work. Cut economic migration to the limit.

Give all contribution a sense of value regardless of financial remuneration. instil the belief that we must become less wasteful, less well off financially...the common good. Make people understand that we must all contribute to the welfare of our old and disabled.
A reasonable ceiling on personal wealth.


I know it's long term but it's the only way

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:39 AM

i think you're right about the general election. this miasma is no good.

trouble is,   think jc would win right now - and i don't think st theresa has that in her vision.

explain the ding ding - i'm on the bus.

i didn't get that

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:26 AM

Well said Nigel.....In Scotland the Conservatives did well from a very low base.......the EU promoting SNP did not do well.

Similarly in England, a vote for Corbyn is definitely a vote for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:25 AM

Jim, its not "working people" who have these stringencies, its those who can't find work. But I repeat, as I said above, bursaries are often available from universities for students from low income households.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM

The only responsible thing to do would be to have a fresh general election. If there have to be any delays in doing that, a temporary shared administration could be set up for the next few weeks. Ken Clarke would be a possible interim Prime Minister.

WHY?

The result could be just the same, and prove to be a complete waste of time and money. This is not the first time we've had a minority government, or a coalition.
They have the justification of having been put in place following the correct process. Just let them get on with it.

Or are you looking at the EU view, insist on re-running elections/referenda until you get the 'right' result?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 10:08 AM

Well I didn't know this when saying something complimentary about Barwell's anti-racist position:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/tories-sat-on-tower-block-fire-safety.html

The property and building industry tycoons Barwell was defending just murdered far more immigrants than those Nazi thugs could have dreamed of.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM

The only responsible thing to do would be to have a fresh general election. If there have to be any delays in doing that, a temporary shared administration could be set up for the next few weeks. Ken Clarke would be a possible interim Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:35 AM

We're not disputing the long existing flaws in higher education - this is about the fact that the barriers stopping working people educating their children have now become insurmountable thanks to increasing financial hurdles.
Higher education has now become unattainable to vast swathes of the British population - we had started to move away from that fact
"One step forward, two steps back" as Lenin once so eloquently put if
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: JHW
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:33 AM

I haven't time to read all the previous posts but have just heard of David Cameron offering advice to Theresa May on how to do Brexit with no house majority.
How dare he! He got us and his party into this then walked away!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:19 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:28 AM

"the likes of us"
I haven't - you introduced the term into the conversation - not one I use.
It seems fairly widely accepted that higher education is now beyond the expectations of of the less well off in Britain - hope you are not telling me I shouldn't mention that!
It was ever thus. It is not a new thing brought in by the Conservative party.
Children of the "less well off" were often kept out of higher education even when there was a full grant available, because their families needed an extra pay packet to come in to the family finances.
The facts of life even then meant that the children of "better off" families were more likely to be able to go to university.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:37 AM

Is no use harking back to the jobs people were going in to in 1971, Big Al, those jobs have gone for good. Nothing at all to do with the EEC, something to do with Thatcher, but most to do with the nature of the world. The future is in high skilled jobs, Harold Wilson saw that at the time. Hence the expansion of higher education and skills training.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:35 AM

"Jim, you can mention it as long as you are prepared to accept that I,"
I accept your personal experience completely as long as you recognise that I come from a part of Britain where my neighbours, friends and associates cannot afford to send their children to higher education because of the prohibitive costs described in the articles I provided
It really isn't about what is happening in our own personal bubbles - it is about what has happened to education throughout Britain.
You have been given the general picture from the national press, you offer your own situation in return - in Liverpool we used to refer to that as, "Ding, ding; I'm on the bus".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:35 PM

The logic of tuition fees would justify imposing them for sixth forms as well. And in fact for all schooling.
...........

Yes it's a mess, Al. But far better than a sizeable majority for the Tories. They'll be completely hamstrung when it comes to introducing any legislation that doesn't have consensus support across the house, and at the mercy of a handful of byelections. And her MPs are liable to be virtually handcuffed to the Chamber in order to avoid voting ambushes by Labour.

It's been rightly said that Theresa is in office, but not in power - but in many ways the same is true of the Tories as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:42 PM

yes but....if you've got nowt in mind for the kids to do - why keep them in school. for many of them, it was like being sentenced to a year in the nick.

back in '71 - most of them could get jobs. this was before the EEC and Thatcher working their subtle magic.

i totally agree about the sec mods - they were variable in quality, to say the least.

i always felt i was doing my bit to drive the standards down.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:51 PM

Jim, you can mention it as long as you are prepared to accept that I, as someone who worked until very recently in higher education, and am a parent to three children who have recently been through higher education, will disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:21 PM

very ironic title to this thread!
i bet no one would have chosen this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:54 AM

I made top class in a grammar school, left at fifteen to serve apprenticeship as a stonemason/ bricky.

Never regretted it once......but it was bloody hard.

Best thing? Being able to see and touch your contribution to the welfare of friends and neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:28 AM

"the likes of us"
I haven't - you introduced the term into the conversation - not one I use.
It seems fairly widely accepted that higher education is now beyond the expectations of of the less well off in Britain - hope you are not telling me I shouldn't mention that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

Ake: define "real education".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 09:27 AM

Which idiotic and useless course educated you, akenaton? Just so that I can advise my grandson to avoid it and end up like you, you understand...