BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:33 AM

Yes, as dismissed comprehensively by Keith and as unstintingly agreed by Teribus in many past occasions in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

I believe that is only one small part of the stories told by "Tommies" who were actually in the trenches, actually in the fighting. You have condemned them all as liars on many occasions.

However, that particular argument has run it's full course more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

Unsubstantiated stories of alleged summary executions was the only time in the WWI threads that I questioned the veracity of supposed eye-witness accounts from the trenches Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:24 AM

Who said I was talking about summary executions? I've never touched on that in my life. You dismissed the testimony of the soldiers in the trenches in general in favour of modern, living historians only. I'm only telling you what you said. It's very suspicious that you don't accept it whilst you do fully accept accounts by Spitfire pilots. You see, the one doesn't fit your preconceptions whilst the other does. That's what makes you not at all believable. Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 10:57 AM

Ah but Shaw it also depends upon whether the stories told can be verified. Now as far as the RAF doing it's bit at Dunkirk that is undoubted and can be verified all the way down the line alpha to omega:

1: Flight records
2: Pilots logs
3: Combat losses
4: Confirmed victories
5: Wreckage of Aircraft (Two Mk 1 Spitfires have been recovered from the beach at Dunkirk and restored. Both are currently airworthy and flying. There are wartime photographs of German soldiers posing with the wreckage - So YES Shaw I believe that they were there and that all those "eye witnesses" were wrong).

Bit different to the story you and your pals tried to peddle. Tales allegedly told by t' "Tommies in t' trenches" of summary executions of British soldiers wasn't it. These summary executions being carried out by their own officers and others by special squads of military policemen. The problems with these stories were:

1: None of these supposed "eye-witnesses" could name one subject of these summary executions.

2: None of these supposed "eye witnesses" could give location, time, or date of any of these summary executions.

3: None of these supposed "eye witnesses" could name any officer who was supposed to carried out any of these summary executions.

4: Items 1, 2, & 3 should not really come as any great surprise because in the entire course of the First World War there is not one single recorded instance of any such summary executions ever having happened.

5: According to the Royal Military Police Museum members of the Corps of Military Police are never used to execute those condemned to death.

So on one hand Shaw we have loads of corroboration and hard evidence that support the fact that the RAF did cover the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk - and then on the other there is not one shred of evidence that there was ever any summary executions of any British soldiers by either their officers or by special squads of military police.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 10:44 AM

That's not swearing, it's an "aspiration", a form of prayer. Though I rather doubt if that would have been Steve's intention.
.........

I think discussions about the war and the build-up to the war really belong in another thread. (But as a final nod here to that topic, I'd point out one rather major gap in his analysis. In 1938. Russia would not have been a sympathetic neutral, as in 1939, but a formidable adversary. Germany would have faced a war on two fronts, and that was not something the general staff relished. Three fronts actually, west, east and south.)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:57 AM

Any more stunning revelations, Stanron? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:56 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Jaysus, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:54 AM

And you may note that I don't swear at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 09:52 AM

I'm not dearly holding myths nor clinging to any ideology here. I have spun neither in this thread. I'm pointing out to you that you are more willing to take on board the eyewitness accounts of the Spitfire pilots but not of the lads in the trenches. Odd that. Except that it isn't odd, is it? One lot fits in nicely with your your predigested opinions and the other doesn't. You're nothing if not consistently inconsistent (and always deflecting away from the point). As for my not wanting to learn anything, etc., well it wasn't me who said that no-one needs to tell me anything because I know it all already...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 07:10 AM

Steve Shaw - 03 Jul 17 - 05:59 AM

"Jaysus, Teribus. You'll listen to the Spitfire pilots for their accounts but you won't listen to the tommies in the trenches. Well, I suppose it is cherry season."

Rather pleased you brought that up Shaw - YOU should really watch the programme if you want to learn something (But if I am honest with myself you do not wish to learn anything, particularly if it contradicts any dearly held myth believed by either yourself or any of your pals)

In the WWI threads you are referring to with your crack about "tommies" IIRC I mentioned that the view and perspective of "the War" obtained from the trenches would be tiny postage stamp views, that are susceptible to misconception. I gave two examples of this view from other conflicts:

A) Waterloo 1815: Three eye-witness accounts
- That of the Duke of Wellington - Commander of the Allied Army;
- That of Captain William Kincaid 95th Rifles
- That of Rifleman Edward Costello 95th Rifles

Whose account would give you the most complete and accurate description of the Battle?

B) Dunkirk 1940:
The perception of the bulk of those evacuated from the beaches and of the naval personnel evacuating the troops was that the RAF went missing and played no part in the evacuation. This view was held to be true and factual by all those "eye-witnesses" because they didn't see any evidence of the RAF effort. We now know after 70 years that all of those eye-witnesses were wrong. We now know that the effort put in by RAF Fighter Command was a major contributing factor in the success of the evacuation (Best estimate for the numbers that would get back were 45,000 - In FACT over 340,000 troops, British and French made it back to England). In the 46 days it took for the Germans to ramp through France and the Low Countries in 1940 the RAF lost something like 980 aircraft, the Luftwaffe lost about 1,400. The RAF in support of Operation Dynamo, the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk, over the nine days of Operation Dynamo, the RAF flew 171 reconnaissance, 651 bombing and 2,739 fighter sorties. Fighter Command claimed 262 enemy aircraft, losing 106 of their own, losses worse than they would experience in the upcoming Battle of Britain. Invaluable battle experience gained and the aircraft that really did the damage was the up to then untried and unproven Spitfire.

Jaysus indeed Shaw - just when the fuck are you going to start arguing from anything other than a base of ignorance fuelled by your a bankrupt ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 06:05 AM

"I apologised to her for being stupid enough to vote tactically for the insipid LibDems. Similar advice in the constituency in which my daughter lives (Truro and Falmouth) may well have cost Labour the seat, where their vote mushroomed way beyond expectations. Of course, if you're going to vote tactically for the LibDems it would be absurd to put Labour posters up in the window or car, or try to persuade people to vote Labour, but next time (which will be pretty soon) I predict a damn sight more of such apparitions and a damn sight more people out to campaign for Labour."

I'm not sure if we even received any Labour literature through the post here (a village in North Norfolk) and the only visitors to the house were LibDem (And even Norman Lamb was around).

I suppose I have mixed feelings. A Corbyn Labour government would be my more natural choice but I do consider Norman Lamb a good active MP for the constituency and, without a dramatic shift, the only one likely to keep the Tories out round here.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:59 AM

Jaysus, Teribus. You'll listen to the Spitfire pilots for heir accounts but you won't listen to the tommies in the trenches. Well, I suppose it is cherry season.

As for what might have happened had the two bombs not been dropped, well that's just playing God. Did anyone think of scaring the Japanese by dropping them on the uninhabited side of a mountain?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:41 AM

Not arguing with the points made, but just for a little accuracy:

2: With the additional armour it acquired from Czechoslovakia the German army when it attacked in the west in May 1940 overran Holland in 7 days.
Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 17th May 1940 - that makes it a FACT
3: The German Army swept through Belgium in 18 days.
Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 28th May, 1940 - that makes it a FACT
4: The German Army conquered France and totally defeated the BEF I 46 days.
Did that happen? - YES it did 10th May to 25th June, 1940 - that makes it a FACT
Add one day to each of those 'facts'. 10/5/1940 was a Friday, as was 17/5/1940. That makes it 8 days. Similarly for the other time periods mentioned.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:37 AM

But no one has ever contradicted the role of the Spitfire. Why would I need to watch that to know that world war is an extremely complex scenario and that any action that occurred differently would have had untold consequences?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:24 AM

Extremely good documentary on the television last on Channel 4's Secret History Series - Dunkirk: New Evidence. The likes of Shaw, Gnome, Raggy and MGOH would learn a great deal if they watched it on "play back". They would find out exactly what the appraisal of Great Britain's prospects would have been without the Spitfire - no speculation just plain honest truth, in the words of the pilots who flew those missions. They do not in any way contradict what I have stated at any point in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:47 AM

Oh - and thanks for he comment, Kevin.

Yes, my alternatives are pure fantasy but I was just trying to illustrate the point that no one can envisage what may have happened if one thing changed. It is not possible.

As to how did we get to alternative histories - It started with

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:36 AM

Like a spiral in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel

...but the tune is not as good.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:37 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM

1: One of the most dangerous faux-historical traits is the what-if syndrome.

No it is not Shaw, as far as the study of History goes it is an essential part of the process of studying and understanding why things did happen the way that they did.

2: "What if we hadn't invaded Iraq? (It would have been three times worse for the Iraqis)"

Much, much worse Shaw. Iraq invaded in March 2003. IIRC at the time both Russia and France were pushing in the UN to get sanctions lifted on Iraq as they weren't working anyway. Sanctions lifted, Iraq rearms, and then in 2004 Saddam Hussein hears about secret Iranian nuclear fuel enrichment plants at Natanz and Oom. Of course Iraqis would probably have continued to be murdered at the rate of between 154 and 282 per day under Saddam but the much worse part would be that once he had completed his rearmament Saddam would have attacked Iran and sparked off a second Iran/Iraq War as there is no way on this Earth that Saddam Hussein in Iraq would stand for or permit neighbouring Iran to acquire any sort of nuclear capability.

3: "What if we hadn't firestormed Dresden? (The war would have lasted for months longer)"

Most likely, the Soviets would have had to have fought their way through it, in the process flattening it completely and that would have taken time in addition to costing unnecessary loss of allied lives (General principal of war is that in fighting one it is preferable to kill the enemy not sacrifice those fighting on your side).

4: "What if the two bombs hadn't been dropped on Japan? (Millions more would have been killed)"

Again most likely, and the tally would have been millions (General principal of war is that in fighting one it is preferable to kill the enemy not sacrifice those fighting on your side). The bombs saved more Japanese civilian lives than would have died had the main Japanese Islands been invaded (Which by the way would have triggered the execution of every Allied POW in Japanese hands)

5: "What if we hadn't sacrificed a whole nation, Czechoslovakia, to the Nazis?"

Well we know it wasn't just to the Nazis, Hungary and Poland took great chunks out of it as well. But what we know would have happened is that there would have been a war in 1938 and all available evidence points to the greatest likelihood that in 1938 Great Britain and France would have lost it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:05 AM

OK - one more time - are you trying to tell me that these things never happened:

1: Germany, Hungary and Poland carved up Czechoslovakia in 1938/39 (Note that Shaw it was not just Nazi Germany)

Did that happen? - YES it did - that makes it a FACT

2: With the additional armour it acquired from Czechoslovakia the German army when it attacked in the west in May 1940 overran Holland in 7 days.

Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 17th May 1940 - that makes it a FACT

3: The German Army swept through Belgium in 18 days.

Did that happen? - YES it did 10th to 28th May, 1940 - that makes it a FACT

4: The German Army conquered France and totally defeated the BEF I 46 days.

Did that happen? - YES it did 10th May to 25th June, 1940 - that makes it a FACT

5: Were the countries referred to above more prepared for war in 1940 than they were in 1938? Undoubtedly more prepared in 1940 than in 1938 as by 1940 war had been declared which is also a FACT. Therefore it is both reasonable and logical to conclude that the German Army would have had an easier time in overrunning Holland, Belgium and France in 1938 than it did in 1940 - COMMON SENSE.

6: Was Great Britain more prepared to fight a war in 1939 than it was in 1938? Undoubtedly Chain Home fully Operational in the summer of 1939 - FACT. The RAF's fighter Squadrons equipped with aircraft in 1939 that were equal to the task of combating the Luftwaffe - FACT This revolutionary integrated air defence system, the first of its kind in the world became available in 1939 - FACT. This integrated air defence system proved to be the significant factor in Great Britain winning the Battle of Britain in 1940 - FACT. Without Chain Home and without the numbers of Hurricane and Spitfire Squadrons the RAF would have lost the Battle of Britain - Acknowledged FACT by those in command and by those who fought the battle (That also includes German pilots who fought in the battle Adolf Galland for one of them)

7: In 1938 Great Britain did not have a fully operational integrated air defence system - FACT. In 1938 the RAF Fighter Squadrons were equipped for the most part with obsolete biplane fighters that basically stood no chance at all in combat against the Luftwaffe Me-109E - FACT as demonstrated whenever those two types of aircraft did encounter each other in combat in 1939 and in 1940. Those FACTS lead to the undeniable conclusion that had the Battle of Britain been fought in the late summer of 1938 Britain would have lost.

8: Therefore the statement that without Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini getting agreement in Munich the war in the West would have started in 1938 - THAT TOO IS A FACT evidenced by the orders given the German General Staff by Hitler himself. Had the war started in 1938 Great Britain and France would have lost it evidenced by what actually did happen in 1940.

There is very little speculation in what I have stated Kevin, and the reason we got onto this subject is through Jom's inaccurate, misunderstood reading of history and his crack about Neville Chamberlain being the Prime Minister who no-one dares mention.

This from the Gnome:

Dave the Gnome - 01 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM

"So, if the French had not negotiated with Hitler the war would have begun in 1938 eh? You just don't get it do you. Nothing to do with what did happen but what could have happened."

No Gnome not what could have happened - that is what was ordered:

"General Ludwig Beck, chief of the German general staff, noted that Hitler's change of heart in favour of quick action was due to Czechoslovak defences still being improvised, which would cease to be the case 2–3 years later, and BRITISH REARMAMENT NOT COMING INTO EFFECT UNTIL 1941/42. General Alfred Jodl noted in his diary that the partial Czechoslovak mobilisation of 21 May, 1938 had led Hitler to issue a new order for Operation Green on 30 May 1938, and that this was accompanied by a covering letter from Keitel stating that the plan must be implemented by 1 October at the very latest." - Teribus - 01 Jul 17 - 03:39 PM

Now can you tell me what part of that passage picked out in bold is in any way ambiguous or unclear. Hitler ordered activation of Operation Green in May 1938 as a result of partial Czech mobilisation and the actual invasion of Czechoslovakia must take place no later than 1st of October. Without negotiations throughout the summer of 1938 with Great Britain and France, Germany would have invaded Czechoslovakia some time between May and September 1938 - in accordance with Hitler's orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 02:58 AM

Bu confining the argument to 1938, Teribus carefully avoids the fact that, up to that point Britain was happy to see the Nazis in charge of Germany as "A bulwark against Bolshevism" - not just as appeasers but as passive allies.
Hitler became the harmless firework that exploded in Britain's hand and WW2 became the consequences of lighting the touchpaper in the first place
It was a lesson we never learned from and we are still suffering the consequences of dealing with monsters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 09:20 PM

Tactical noting is tricky. It's a rotten substitute for the Alternative Voting system we rejected (or rather 28% of the electorate rejected most people didn't vote), unsatisfactory as it was as a system.

But it probably made a diifference in a lot of places where Green voters went for Labour.

I imagine there must be a lot of Scots wishing they hadn't saved the Tories by their tactical voting. Alright, they've made Nicola Sturgeon back off from a referendum, but she'd likely have done that if Labour successfully pushed for a Brexit that would involve some way of helping the Scots have some special status with the EU that protected their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:56 PM

We certainly did. I met our heavily-defeated Labour candidate yesterday (North Cornwall has long been LibDem but is now solid Tory). I apologised to her for being stupid enough to vote tactically for the insipid LibDems. Similar advice in the constituency in which my daughter lives (Truro and Falmouth) may well have cost Labour the seat, where their vote mushroomed way beyond expectations. Of course, if you're going to vote tactically for the LibDems it would be absurd to put Labour posters up in the window or car, or try to persuade people to vote Labour, but next time (which will be pretty soon) I predict a damn sight more of such apparitions and a damn sight more people out to campaign for Labour. There are an awful lot of us about! Be very afraid, Theresa. Just for once, Osborne was probably right, and he might well have included the whole Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:21 PM

How did we get on to alternative history scenarios?

Imagining how things might have worked out differently is essentially the same as imagining how things might work out in the future according to what we decide to do, when faced with a choice. The difference of course is that we aren't making the kind of choices that shape how the world is going to go, most of the time.

But in an election we are taking part in such a choice, which is what this thread started out as being about. And I think we collectively made a much better chiice than looked only too likely a few weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM

One of the most dangerous faux-historical traits is the what-if syndrome. It can be used to justify some of the most horrible things perpetrated, to exonerate a severe wrong. What if we hadn't invaded Iraq? (It would have been three times worse for the Iraqis). What if we hadn't firestormed Dresden? (The war would have lasted for months longer). What if the two bombs hadn't been dropped on Japan? (Millions more would have been killed). Etcetera. Really? What if we hadn't sacrificed a whole nation, Czechoslovakia, to the Nazis? The Nazis!!! It's an easy game to play for the hawks. The questions are valid enough. The approach to answering them can't half bring out the ideologue in some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:16 PM

Terikins, time for bed. Don't forget to take your Aspergers pills.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:46 PM

While I wouldn't buy into Dave's alternative history scenario, he's dead right in emphasising the impossibility of being confident about any one of the uncountable "options".

Maybe the Oster Conspiracy by dissident conservatives generals to kill Hitler and stage a coup if a war on two fronts erupted because of the Sudetan would have come off.

Change the past and it might come off better, it might have come off worse. Nobody can know that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:23 PM

Oh, and BTW

Gnome: Read your last post - I cannot make any sense out of it.

For someone who could not make any sense out of my post you certainly put a lot into arguing against it. I suppose stranger things happen at sea...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:18 PM

Still missing the whole point eh, Teribus. I can only blame myself for so long you know.

your problem is that you are totally ignorant of the history of the period

Absolutely fuck all to do with knowledge of history. Just the fact that you are claiming things that never happened as facts.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 03:39 PM

Let's reuse the new format:

Dave the Gnome - 02 Jul 17 - 01:35 PM

"had war broken out in 1938...

I am sure somebody in the American State Department had read Hitler's book

America could have made a fortune..."

Note: The above are all cherry-picked by Gnome and placed above out of context.

All documented facts eh, Teribus? Well, how about this.

War broke out in 1938.

The UK sends all its top scientists and leaders to a safe haven. [The planned location was Canada]

Europe, including the UK are overrun. [Tell me Gnome why would Hitler want to "overrun the whole of Europe?? - That was never part of his plan]

In 1940 the top scientists come up with a weapon so devastating that it can destroy the world [You are fantasizing now Gnome - two years from scratch to instantly get "a weapon so devastating that it can destroy the world" - grow up the atom bomb took the resources of the USA, at this time in your scenario a neutral country remember, six years to build]

The top leaders [What top leaders?] negotiate with all the world powers, [Under what auspices? what forum, The League of Nations has been shredded] including the third Reich and convince them that unless the war ends the device will be used. [AH GOT IT - War of the Worlds scenario - yet another fantasy. Third Reich knows that while you may have a weapon you have no way of delivering it - their top scientists have told them that]

The war stops after 2 years instead of going on for the 6 it did. [How does the war stop? Does Germany keep the territory it has acquired? Does it retreat to its 1938 borders and ensure that this terrible new weapon can be delivered? Are really so naïve Gnome? - Germany in the late 1930s couldn't care less about Europe - Soviet Russia was the enemy Nazi Germany knew IT HAD TO DEFEAT - something you keep forgetting]

Millions of lives are saved.

World peace is restored and lasts to this day. [REALLY?]

You see, Gnome, your problem is that you are totally ignorant of the history of the period, yet feel compelled to argue points from ignorance. It is you who are looking only at one tiny fraction of the picture. It is not your fault - you neither know enough about the subject under discussion nor understand enough about it - which is strange having as you did a Father who fled Poland to come to Great Britain during the war. It is you who has absolutely no imagination.

World war is far more complicated and the results are not always one side winds and one side looses, or alternatively one side wins and one side loses, which oddly enough is always the case in any war, "World" or not. Experience shows us that it the ensuing "Peace" that is not always won.

Just above you say yourself, "Why would America HAVE TO become a superpower?" Well, your are now showing signs of thinking outside your fixed parameters. Keep it up and you may be surprised at the results. - Well yes I may well be surprised and perhaps, you never know maybe one of you monkeys will answer a direct question for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 03:07 PM

Dave the Gnome - 02 Jul 17 - 12:34 PM

Here is a major flaws for you to ponder too, Teribus.

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

It didn't fucking happen! [WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN???]

Chaimberlain did precisely what he did. [YES HE MANAGED TO AVERT A WAR THAT WE AT THAT TIME WERE NOT PREPARED TO FIGHT] Your theoretical scenario is a fantasy. [HARDLY GNOME BECAUSE WITHIN 18 MONTHS IT ALL ACTUALLY DID HAPPEN - EXCEPT BY THEN GREAT BRITAIN WAS PREPARED TO FIGHT]

Pretty major flaw if you ask me. [WHAT MAJOR FLAW GNOME???]

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 01:51 PM

Gnome: Read your last post - I cannot make any sense out of it.

Different language
Different planet

Just one more to go to catch up with Keith

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 01:43 PM

In which case Raggy what are your assumptions based upon?

As far as logic and reason go you are on very shaky ground. You have no idea what US intentions and policy were. The world and it's dog knew what German intentions were, I believe that they were known to many at the time, which is why the deal was struck to prevent war breaking out in 1938.

Don't just keep rabbiting on about "you cannot know for certain" - show me that in stating what I have said where I am in error. Tell us all what miracle would have happened that would have saved Europe from War with Nazi Germany - please don't say Hitler could have been assassinated, or choked on a peanut - too stupid for words.

Gnome: Read your last post - I cannot make any sense out of it.

Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini got the Germans to come to an agreement at Munich in September 1938. Hitler wanted a war in 1938 to clear his way to attacking Russia. Hitler had the plan to attack Czechoslovakia "hot to trot" by 20th May, 1938. If there had been no interest in delaying the German plan and France stood by Czechoslovakia then war would have come to western Europe late summer 1938, immediately after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-aggression Pact had been signed and Great Britain and France would have lost that war in roughly 100 days - same time oddly enough that it took Field Marshall Earl Haig to defeat Germany in 1918 during the First World War - using the same tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 01:35 PM

had war broken out in 1938...

I am sure somebody in the American State Department had read Hitler's book

America could have made a fortune...

All documented facts eh, Teribus? Well, how about this.

War broke out in 1938.

The UK sends all its top scientists and leaders to a safe haven.

Europe, including the UK are overrun.

In 1940 the top scientists come up with a weapon so devastating that it can destroy the world

The top leaders negotiate with all the world powers, including the third Reich and convince them that unless the war ends the device will be used.

The war stops after 2 years instead of going on for the 6 it did.

Millions of lives are saved.

World peace is restored and lasts to this day.

You see, Teribus, your problem is that you are looking only at one tiny fraction of the picture. It is not your fault. As I have said for years you simply have no imagination. Have you any idea how many possible permutations there are in a game of chess? No, no one has ever really calculated it but the best estimate is around 10,000,000. Any single change in the the way a player has moved results in a different game. World war is far more complicated and the results are not always one side winds and one side looses.

Just above you say yourself, "Why would America HAVE TO become a superpower?" Well, your are now showing signs of thinking outside your fixed parameters. Keep it up and you may be surprised at the results.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM

We know the history Teriblossom,that is the accepted truth (as we are led to believe) but you are making assumptions about what MAY have happened.

I am making assumptions about what America MAY have done.

There is no difference between my assumptions and your assumptions because they are simply that ASSUMPTIONS, guesswork, speculation etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 12:44 PM

Raggytash - 02 Jul 17 - 09:54 AM

1: Yes it is guesswork, you don't KNOW that would have happened, you cannot KNOW that would have happened, you can only speculate it MAY have happened.

No guesswork at all Raggy.

We know that Germany, Hungary and Poland carved up Czechoslovakia don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that Germany overran Holland in seven days don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that Germany overran Belgium in eighteen days don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that Germany overran France in 46 days don't we? We know that because that is what actually happened

We know that in 1938 Chain Home was not operational don't we? It was not operational until 1939. We know because that is recorded fact So it is safe to say that had war broken out in 1938 and it took less than six months to get the Germans from Germany and Czechoslovakia to the French channel ports it would mean that any Battle of Britain would have to be fought without any early warning radar.

We know that the RAF's main front line fighter aircraft in 1938 was the Gloster Gladiator don't we? Another recorded fact. We know from actual combat records that the Gloster Gladiator was no match at all for the German Me-109E. So it is safe to say that the German air force would have succeeded in wiping out the RAF in an 1938 version of the Battle of Britain.

2: As for America, it is entirely possible that to become the superpower they are they would have had to make war on a powerful German state and defeat it.

Why? Do you believe in pre-destiny Raggy? Why would America HAVE TO become a superpower? To do that why would they have had to fight Germany. All they had to do was wait and let Germany wear itself out fighting Soviet Russia - You see I am sure somebody in the American State Department had read Hitler's book. America could have made a fortune selling to both Germany and Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 12:34 PM

Here is a major flaws for you to ponder too, Teribus.

without him doing precisely what he did we would have lost the war.

It didn't fucking happen!

Chaimberlain did precisely what he did. Your theoretical scenario is a fantasy.

Pretty major flaw if you ask me.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 09:54 AM

Yes it is guesswork, you don't KNOW that would have happened, you cannot KNOW that would have happened, you can only speculate it MAY have happened.

As for America, it is entirely possible that to become the superpower they are they would have had to make war on a powerful German state and defeat it.

All guesswork of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 09:43 AM

Ah Raggy you are talking about things that might possibly happen but probably wouldn't as your conjecture lacks logic and reasoning. I, on the other hand am basing what I believe would have resulted had Chamberlain not negotiated a settlement at Munich and had Hitler got the war he wanted and had planned for in 1938. I base what I have said on logic and reasoning that is supported by actual events and outcomes.

- Annexation of Czechoslovakia by Germany, Hungary and Poland.
- Invasion of Holland 1940, 7 days - the result would have been the same, if not quicker, in 1938 or 1939.
- Invasion of Belgium 1940, 18 days - the result would have been the same, if not quicker, in 1938 or 1939.
- Invasion of France 1940, 46 days - the result would have been the same, if not quicker, in 1938 or 1939.

- Battle of Britain 1938 style would have been fought without radar, without the Hurricane and without the Spitfire. With the RAF depending upon the Gloster Gladiator biplane, out performed and outnumbered by the fighter aircraft of the German Luftwaffe, the result would have most certainly have been a defeat for the RAF. In no theatre of operations did the Gladiator prove equal to, or even pose a threat to the Me-109E. Here are some comments by those who flew them:

1: "The Gloster Gladiator was not only pretty to look at, but was a beautiful aircraft to fly, providing that you were not being chased by a Messerschmitt Bf109 at the time."

2: "The Gladiator never did prove itself as a fighting machine and were classed as death traps against the Luftwaffe Bf109s very early in W.W.II."

3: "In early September of 1939, two squadrons flew Gloster Gladiators in France. These were The County of Durham 609 Squadron and the County of Surrey 615 Squadron both were squadrons of the Auxiliary Air Force. Both suffered heavy casualties in the heavy engagements that they undertook. Being slow in both speed and in manoeuvrability, the gunners of the German bombers found them easy targets and up against the more modern swift monoplane fighters of the Luftwaffe they were totally outclassed."

4: "When the war moved to the south coast of Britain, Gladiators again became involved, but this time only on a minor scale. But the story was much the same as it had been before, they were being shot down like targets on a practice range. They were eventually withdrawn to areas where they would not be used in combat operations."

No guesswork - all fact - all that has been done is advance the timing to reflect no accommodation being reached or negotiated between Germany, France and Great Britain in 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:41 AM

Exactly the same as your conjecture, I am guessing at things that COULD have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:20 AM

Incidentally - The Communist Party fell out with the factions for refusing to make the Civil War a revolution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 08:19 AM

Correct me if I am wrong here Raggy but after the First World War didn't the USA pursue a strict and deliberate policy of "isolationism". A policy it held to until attacked by Japan and until Germany declared war on the USA. So what on earth leads you to believe that the USA would abandon that policy of "isolationism" if Great Britain was defeated by Germany (The year of that defeat doesn't matter, 1938, 1939 or 1940

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:35 AM

"Have a go at what? those people, private citizens, who travelled to Spain to fight for the republican side were fighting for "socialism", "communism""
They were not
They were a mixed bunch - liberals, intellectuals, ane generally anti-fascists who saw the rise of fascism as a threat
The Communist Party played a part in recruiting and the Soviets sent arms (of a sort!!) but i general, The International Brigades were made up of those who wished to oppose fascism
My father was a practicing Catholic - a Collegiate student who has served mass for the priest
People he fought with were Trades Unionists and workmates of all commitments
Even the Civil War wasn't clear cut in its objectives but largely inspired by a military coup - not political ideals
My father crossed the Alps with a Hollywood film director as a companion.
Sure - some of them came back converted to communist or socialist ideals - just as many came back disillusioned because of the inter-political fighting between the general body of volunteers and the POUM (Anarchists)
To absolve their guilt for appeasing fascism, the establishment has depicted this war as Communist versus fascist - it never was as clear cut as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:12 AM

"Yes - because that is what history records that they DID DO - unless you know any different Raggy"

But you are suggesting a different history had German defeated Britain. Had that actually been the case would America have sat back and watched?

You don't know, I don't know, it's all conjecture at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 07:02 AM

"the fact that, had Hitler been challenged "rather than befriended when Germany was not the threat it became, his international plans would have been nipped in the bud" - Jom

No argument at all from me on that Jom, you are perfectly right. Winton Churchill argued for it. It required someone like George W. Bush to carry it through because that is precisely what he did with regard to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

The bit I do not get is this:

"he describes those who did have a go as traitors"

Have a go at what? those people, private citizens, who travelled to Spain to fight for the republican side were fighting for "socialism", "communism" whatever against the "fascists" - as such they were fighting General Franco NOT Hitler and whatever they did in Spain would have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the Fascist regimes in other countries to state that they would is totally ridiculous.

The British Government has always discouraged private citizens from the UK travelling abroad to fight in other people's wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM

"Had all you suggested happened, what would the USA have done, sat back and watched?" - Asks Raggy

Yes - because that is what history records that they DID DO - unless you know any different Raggy.

It also has to be remembered that in December 1941 while the USA declared war on Japan, it was Nazi Germany that declared war on the USA - NOT the other way about.

"A joint venture between the USA and the UK fast tracked an intercontinental ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead and Germany was wiped of the face of the earth with it." - Chips in the Gnome as a possibility in 1938

REALLY?? Here are a few flaws for you to ponder Gnome:

1: Time to create this JV and what would have been in it for the USA? Would that time taken be less than the time that it would have taken the Germans to defeat and overrun Czechoslovakia, Holland, Belgium and France?

2: In 1938 the USA was less prepared for war than Great Britain and France.

3: The extent of US and British knowledge on ballistic missiles in 1938 was what Gnome? IIRC US missile technology only started to advance when they took a German scientist one Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun back to the USA in 1945.

4: In 1938 nuclear physics was in its infancy (Nuclear fission was only discovered in 1938 - by German scientists) the actual Manhattan Project began very modestly in 1939 in the USA, while at the same time in Great Britain the same work was started. It would take until 1945 until three operational bombs were built. Now tell me Gnome how Great Britain would have survived those six years of bombings and losses of merchant ships?

You see the difference between idiotic fantasy and reasoned and logical thought Gnome?

I can state with a great degree of certainty what would have happened in 1938 in Czechoslovakia and in Holland, Belgium and in France because of what did happen to them in 1939 and in 1940 with no changes to German plans and no special additions to German equipment or forces.

I can state with a great degree of certainty what would have happened if the RAF of 1938 had come up against the Luftwaffe because of the combat records of the aircraft involved in Finland, in Norway and in Greece where Gloster Gladiator fighters took on German Me-109Es without the benefit of being controlled and directed via an integrated early warning command and control system.

Adolf still choking on peanuts Gnome?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 06:09 AM

"You are guessing at outcomes."
Not only "guessing but ignoring the fact that, had Hitler been challenged "rather than befriended when Germany was not the threat it became, his international plans would have been nipped in the bud
Nazi Germany had no allies willing to join his crusade.
Instead of this, he describes those who did have a go as traitors - hardly surprising, where he's coming from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:56 AM

You can give us what happened as much as you like, Teribus. The fact remains that you cannot give us what did not happen because it did not happen.

Let us take your last example. The Gloster Gladiator would have been anihilated. Fair enough, I really don't know and don't care. So, the Gloster Gladiator was annihilated. The Luftwaffe won the battle of Britain. A joint venture between the USA and the UK fast tracked an intercontinental ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead and Germany was wiped of the face of the earth with it.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:36 AM

Had all you suggested happened, what would the USA have done, sat back and watched?

You are guessing at outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:24 AM

"No one can state, as fact, what would have happened if a single event in history had been different." - OH YES THEY CAN - with remarkable ease.

"Any single aspect in history. You can predict all you like. You can apply the law of probabilities to attempt to prove it. But you can never be certain of what the outcome would have been."

No prediction involved Gnome:

In 1938 the RAF's front line fighter would have been the Gloster Gladiator - no need to predict how this aircraft would have faired when matched against the German Me-109E - that was clearly demonstrated in Finland, in Norway and in Greece - they were slaughtered Gnome.

In the case and period under discussion had Great Britain not had the advantages detailed in previous posts and the time to develop them and had the war started in 1938 - then the following would have happened just as they did in 1940 with the exception that in 1938 the German Luftwaffe would have won the Battle of Britain.

Interesting little snippet for you Gnome:

Blitzkrieg - the lightening war - the use of massed tank formations integrated with mechanised infantry and close air support (As developed by the British under Field Marshall Douglas Haig in 1917/1918) to break through your enemy's defensive line and cause him to retreat in disorder. Any idea what made that possible for the Germans in 1940 Gnome? The number of Czech tanks (t-35s & t-38s) they acquired in 1938 - you see the Czech tanks were a damned sight more mechanically reliable that the ones the Germans had. Watch any documentary about the German attack on the West in May 1940 and in almost every frame showing "German" armour you will see either a Czech t-35 or a t-38. Had the war started in 1938 the Germans when they turned West would have had those tanks, they would have rolled up Holland, Belgium and France just as they did in 1940 as there would have been no changes required and their enemies even less prepared than they were in 1940. The BEF would have been defeated in France and the RAF would not have been able to provide any protection for any evacuation beaches - so a Dunkirk would not have happened. Then onto the Battle of Britain which in 1940 we won solely because of:

- Integrated air defence system gave us far better command and control of our forces which enabled 680 fighters to defeat over 3,500 German aircraft.

- In the Hurricane and Spitfire we had aircraft that could take on and destroy the best the German air force could throw at us.

Of course in 1938 we had none of the above did we Gnome. We would rapidly have lost command of the air and the British Government would have been forced to sue for peace on German terms or be forced to watch our cities destroyed before our eyes - THAT would have been the reality - obvious to all except theoretical pedantic little you.

Having secured his position in the West Hitler would have then attacked Poland (Where Gnome's Dad would have had to have remained having nowhere else to go) and then Russia (As he always intended to do).

Now who was it that robbed Hitler of his war in 1938? - Neville Chamberlin.

Who was it that bought us the time we needed to prepare and rearm? - Neville Chamberlain.