BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:50 AM

Any one can see that I did no such thing. I regard them as rock-solid certs. I said that it was you who downgraded my remarks to mere speculation, not me, and let me tell you summit else: your optimism about this country post-brexit has nothing to do with common sense or fact. We are heading into unknown territory, not the brave old pre-1973 rose-coloured illusory world that you mistakenly think we're going back to. This is a very different country now. And we are in big trouble, thanks to you and the rest of the 38%.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:52 AM

That was a quote from me, Kevin. My point is that whatever the result of any such second referendum it will be as divisive, if not worse, than the first one. It will also bring Farage and his ilk out of the woodwork for the duration of the campaign and I would not wish to inflict that on anyone. Even if it were to reverse the decision, and I believe that would be better than leaving, I am not sure I could stand another round of hate.

Purely my own opinion of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:54 AM

I will forgive you for confusing me with Teribus though. I suppose I should be flattered that you thought I was an all knowing super being that has nothing to learn

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 11:01 AM

I see we're getting the same old nonsense about "buying portions" of the electorate. So who bought off the council house owners by giving them the right to buy (only the nicest places, of course) at massive discounts? Who sold off the public utilities at disgracefully low prices in order to turn the middle classes into a "share-owning democracy" (aka a Tory-voting, self-interested democracy)? What government dares to shit on the elderly (who turn out to vote)? Is it not just a teeny-weeny bit possible that investing in education, thereby developing to the full the talents of our young people instead of putting off the poorest via the prospect of huge debts, might actually be a good thing? A tad better perhaps than selling off the family silver on the cheap to keep the masses voting Tory, wasting a bloody fortune on more runways, HS2 and an utterly useless nuclear "deterrent?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 11:21 AM

During the election Blunderwoman said she would make no promises on repairing the damage that her party had done as "There is no money tree"
Amazing how one suddenly sprouted up when it came to paying bungs to keep her party in office - contempt for the British people or what?
Lovely cartoon in today's Times showing May and Foster sitting under a tree sprouting money - may looking the other way while Foster pockets the cash
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

Trying to move us on a bit from the trenches we have been fighting over and making no progress ...

Grant Shapps and David Davis both blame the fact the Conservatives do not have a majority on a poor manifesto and in particular a few own goals in it. I grant them that without those own goals they may well have won enough seats to get some sort of majority, even if it was no better than they started with. But I also think if they don't look at the things like how the demographics have changed, and put all their effort into writing a better manifesto rather than thinking about what their real purpose as a party is (as people like Chris Patten were saying over the weekend), they are doomed to failure.

So as a Labour supporter, I am quite happy if they blame everything on a poorly thought out manifesto and the thinking stops there.

What say you?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 02:52 PM

Sorry about that, Dave. As I said, we all make mistakes sometimes.

Yes, I'm sure there'd be people screaming blue murder if Brexit lost. But if they won, I reckon things would calm down. But I think I'm corrept to interpret the fixed opposition to a second vote by Brexiters is based on a reasonable assumption that they would lose such a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 02:58 PM

No problem, Kevin. I make mastikes as well...

I think the Brexiteers would be screaming blue murder from the outset if another was called. Only opinion but based on what I have seen so far. Having gone through an election, the referendum then another election in a short space of time I, and many I know, are politicked out. I am not sure I could face another barrage of it!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 03:37 PM

Well, you'll probably have another General Election very soon. I haven't yet got round to taking the poster off my front door, and I've half a mind to leave it there for next time.

In France they've had four national polls in the last few months. If you don't like elections you're living in the right country here.

I can't see why people should get more upset at elections than they do about the constant stream of big sporting jamborees - World Cup, European Cuo, Test Matches, Rugby Six Nations Cup, Olympics, Wimbledon... Now that maybe is overkill.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:05 PM

Just going back to this:

"We will have to agree to disagree over this, Steve. I don't believe a second referendum will do anything but divide the country still further and give Farage and his ilk more ammunition."

I wasn't arguing in favour of a second referendum. It isn't going to happen so I'm not going to take any sort of stand on it. I'm saying that there would be nothiing undemocratic about holding one. A huge amount has changed since last June's vote. And I think there's a danger in running scared of referendums/elections..

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 08:26 PM

But did you not, in the past, post that you thought that any referendum was wrong because politicians should decide everything? The implication being that the electorate (I take that to mean me personally) are too ignorant to decide on such issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:41 AM

I am opposed to referendums because I believe that we elect politicians to power in order to make decisions about matters that are riddled with complexities. It's their job to get themselves fully informed about those complexities and they have access to sources that enable them to achieve that that the rest of us don't have access to. However, we live in a referendum-riddled world whether I like it or not, so I'm saying that, in that context, another vote would be no more undemocratic than the last one. It's a nonsense to suggest that it's undemocratic to give people a chance to change their minds. Democracy is predicated on that right. But I've given up calling for one and take on board the view that another vote may not be a good way to go. Not sure about it but it's a valid view. It's far more likely in any case that brexit will collapse all by itself. We may not need another vote to get it jettisoned.

And less well-informed is a better term in this context than ignorant. That's despite the fact that a referendum campaign is certainly an opportunity for truly ignorant people to
put their ignorance proudly on display.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:02 AM

There's nothing wrong with referenda when they are conducted properly
Unfortunately where the Murdoch-type press has the most public say on the issues and turn them into 'populist campaigns', they cease to be democratic.
Ireland has them fairly regularly - the most positive win recently was on same sex marriage
Past referenda on abortion have fallen because of the overbearing use of spiritual blackmail by the church.
Last time they even threatened to excommunicate politicians who voted "the wrong way" - Ireland remains somewhere in the early part of the twentieth century on this issue.
We'll see what happens with the next one - maybe the implications of clerical abuse will finally strike home
Referenda would not be necessary if politicians told the truth and did what they promised
They don't so they are, but they desperately need removing from the influence of the agenda-driven media
Electoral democracy in Britain has become exposed as a total sham
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:58 AM

Stanron The implication being that the electorate (I take that to mean me personally) are too ignorant to decide on such issues.

No such implication from me. The point is that our elected representatives should do the job they are paid handsomely for with the help of their army of paid advisors.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:59 AM

Could have been lifted straight from the Daily Heil

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:26 AM

"Could have been lifted straight from the Daily Heil"
I found it an extremely funny piece of satire
Wish there was more of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

You will probably enjoy this if you haven't already seen it as well then, Jim.

Enjoy

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:58 AM

"we live in a referendum-riddled world" - Shaw

No we don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:13 AM

Could someone explain to Terikins that the world does not consist only of Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:21 AM

Just some of the referenda worldwild

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:22 AM

Worldwild indeed !!

It should of course read world wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 12:57 PM

Ooooh Raggy referendum riddled world - in just 60 out of what? 196 countries - riddled indeed!!!

Besides that Raggy why do you lot of the rabid left object to the political process in other countries? Their choice isn't it? Or is that yet another freedom you want to see removed?

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" - George Orwell, Animal Farm - the book reflects events leading up to the Russian Revolution of 1917 and then on into the Stalinist era of the Soviet Union. Orwell, a democratic socialist, was a critic of Joseph Stalin and hostile to Moscow-directed Stalinism, an attitude that was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:01 PM

Care to point out just where I have objected to the political process in any other country ..............

.......or is this yet another knee reaction with no thought given to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:13 PM

why do you lot of the rabid left object to the political process in other countries

Just who is of the 'rabid left' and what is rabid about it anyway? Who has objected to anyone else's political processes? What freedoms has anyone suggested are removed? My only point is that the government should do what they are paid to do - govern! I don't think that is a particularly radical point of view.

I think you are spending too much time observing what people do and not enough time actually listening to what they say.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:54 PM

Since when has the word "world" always literally signified only the planet earth?   Ever heard expressions such as "he lives in a world of his own," "the world of opera," "she thinks the world of me," "we are worlds apart" and so on? When Cilla sang You're My World was she telling you that you were her third rocky planet from the Sun with a diameter of 8000 miles and a surface of three-quarters water? In this country we have had three referendums in five years. Tell me what other five-year period has had three referendums. In the UK, therefore, we live in a referendum-riddled world. I don't give a monkey's flying fart what goes on in other countries. This country is my context and this country is what I meant, clear to all bar morons. If you want to take me on, Billyboy, for chrissake try to find something worth arguing about first.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:00 PM

I thought I'd introduce "the rabid-left" to balance Jom's references to what he terms "the rabid-right" - and by God did it prove to be good bait - easier than catching mackerel.

Nice to hear that you are all for referendums Raggy - we had one recently in the UK and voted to Leave the EU. It would appear that some of your chums don't accept the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:17 PM

I thought I'd introduce "the rabid-left" to balance Jom's references to what he terms "the rabid-right"

Ahhh, OK. So you just copied someone else.

It would appear that some of your chums don't accept the result.

Who would that be then, Teribus? Or can you not tell the difference between do not accept and do not like?

I thought that a man that already knows everything without having to listen to anyone else would have done better than plagiarism and straw man arguments. Just goes to show that at least I can still learn...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:18 PM

Less than 38% voted to leave. Happy to correct you. And who isn't accepting the result? Where's your evidence? There is no question of not accepting the result. It is what it is. On the other hand, you are showing your personal democratic deficit by refusing to acknowledge that people are entitled to change their minds, an absolute tenet of any system that calls itself a democracy. Whilst I'm not necessarily campaigning for a rerun, I am wondering what you're scared of.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 02:37 PM

"people are entitled to change their minds"

Of course they are entitled to change their minds - having submitted our official notification to leave under Article 50 - Once the UK has left the EU the people are entitled to change their minds by applying to join the EU - nothing stopping them from doing that as far as I can see - Start your campaign today Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:37 PM

Disingenuous rubbish, and you know it. Leaving then reapplying then rejoining would be an impossibly uphill struggle ending up with far worse terms than we have now and we wouldn't get there in my or your lifetime. A vote to remain is, on other hand, totally reversible. A remain vote in a second referendum would be easy to reverse in bureaucratic terms, no harder than what's happening now and on the same timescale. And you can bet your life that you super-democrats (who can't bear the idea of another vote) would be angling for a rerun straight away. In fact, your hero Nigel said as much just before the last one when he thought he was going to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:52 PM

"Nice to hear that you are all for referendums Raggy"

Would you care to provide any evidence for me ever suggesting such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:31 PM

I should add that your response was yet another knee jerk reaction.

So no surprise at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:00 PM

"Leaving then reapplying then rejoining would be an impossibly uphill struggle ending up with far worse terms than we have now and we wouldn't get there in my or your lifetime." - Shaw

Impossibly uphill struggle Shaw? Why at present we are 100% compliant aren't we - more so than most member states.

Why would the terms be far worse Shaw? Would those fair-minded souls in the heart of the EU want to humiliate and punish Britain once again?

We had the referendum we voted to leave and we are better off by far getting out of it - good riddance.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:00 PM

And yours Raggy are merely the reactions of a jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:09 PM

So, not able to respond to my query.

Quelle Surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:05 PM

"=was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War"
Orwell spent most of his time in Spain in bars interviewing troops on their way to the front
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 09:04 PM

I can quite understand how Brexiters, aware that the result in the referendum, in which the 38% of the electorate who voted for Brexit outnumbered the 34.7% who voted to remain, is not guaranteed to be repeated in another referendum, are firmly opposed to any such thing. I suspect that if the boot was on the other foot, the winners would want to hold the win.

But in neither case would it be honest to say that this was on account of any democratic principle, rather than as reflecting the human instinct to hold on to your gains. The refusal to admit that represents another very common human instinct, the one to be dishonest, to others, and also to ourselves.
..............

If in fact we wished even at this point to reverse our decision to leave the EU, it has in fact been made clear to us, for example by the Lennon quoting president of the European Council, that this would be perfectly possible. But even if "we" (meaning the British public) wanted to, we will not have that choice.

It's a matter of "you made your own bed - now you must lie on it". Though I imagine most of us prefer in real life to remake our bed, if we've done it wrong first time and it's not comfortable. The saying is absurd , when you think about it for an instant, like the one that says "you can't turn back the clock". Tosh. I do it every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 02:38 AM

That maybe true Carroll - but the man clearly had Stalin's ticket marked and saw the monster for what he truly was.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:37 PM

Disingenuous rubbish, and you know it. Leaving then reapplying then rejoining would be an impossibly uphill struggle ending up with far worse terms than we have now and we wouldn't get there in my or your lifetime.

Unfortunately, that is only too true.
We are already seeing the difficulties being put in the way of our leaving after we have joined.
I can only hope that we make a success of getting out, and re-establishing our sovereignty in good time.

In context of the meaning of "world" you wrote This country is my context and this country is what I meant, clear to all bar morons so why not use the word 'country' in the first place, rather than 'world'. You expound at length in the 'Oxford comma' thread about the need for meaning to be clear, so presumably, in this case, you were looking to be obscure.
And what is wrong with the good word 'except'? 'Bar morons' sound like the thick crowd you would meet in your local pub!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:57 AM

If you people who quote Orwell ever stretched your minds to actually reading what he wrote, you would be aware that he was addressing his writings to all extremist societies - not just those on the 'so-called left
The right use Orwell, even though much of what he wrote was directed at them -
Animal Farm in particular, in particular was directed at extremism and the eroding democracy that was occurring throughout the world - the destruction of his dream of Socialism in Russia by Stalin and the rise of extreme Capitalism in Germany - which he regarded as two sides to the same coin
'Down and Out' and 'Wigan Pier' were about exploitation and extreme poverty and its effects on humanity in Britain and Europe
'Aspidistra' presented the lengths intellectuals and dreamers were forced to go in order to survive in a class-divided society.
'Catelonia' was a journalistic exercise rather than an analysis of what was happening in a Europe where Capitalist Fascism was on the rise and what was (or was not) being done to stop it - it was limited by the fact that it was superficially researched (Orwell had a shoddy reputation among those who were actually fighting Franco for being a drunk and a dilettante).
You self-imposed, selective illiterates really need to read what you quote if you are not going to expose yourself for your illiterate ignorance
Orwell aimed his writings at all forms of extremism - left, right and centre
"That maybe true Carroll"
The fact that you are totally incapable of conducting a discussion in reasonably respectful terms makes you one of the problems of society Orwell addressed much of his invective at - the bullying, belligerence that was threatening his world at the time.
Why not try reading a book - it can be both enjoyable and rewarding
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 05:27 AM

By the way
It is all too often that the heroes who went out to fight Fasicm in Spain returned home to find the had been criminalised by their politicians
In Britain, they immediately became "premature anti-Fasists" - eventually the US powers-that-be turned them into "Un-Americans"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:07 AM

By the way the Irish government were quite vicious to those that citizens that fought in WW2 as well.


http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-wwii-veterans-allies-apology-484431-Jun2012/

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:29 AM

"It is all too often that the heroes who went out to fight Fasicm in Spain returned home to find the had been criminalised by their politicians.

In Britain, they immediately became "premature anti-Fasists" - eventually the US powers-that-be turned them into "Un-Americans"

Bloody right they did, today I hope that the British Government shreds the passports of any who have gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. They represented a potential danger as much then as they do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:40 AM

a dilettante!!

he went to Spain , signed up with a militia. fought. copped a bullet in the throat that reduced his voice to a whisper for the rest of his shortened life. he was then imprisoned and saw his comrades executed by factions of the left that as usual couldn't bear to put up with another faction of the left.(abit like the Corbynistas can't stand the Blairite scum.)

dilettante.... one can't help but wonder what would qualify as being commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 07:39 AM

Spain was a fight against Fasicm - not "private citizens fights in other country's wars" and the fact that you regard it as uu=ch sums up perfectly the appeasing British Government took against the raise of Nazism
Germany had already started herding up the Jews ready for slaughter and still Britain did fuck all
The Royals were even teaching their children the fascist salute in readiness.
Al
My impression of Orwell a was gained from people who met him - two were at my father's funeral.
Iains
To the Irish, WW2 was a fight be tween Empires - they considered themselves as a colony of that Empire
The Irish (in the south anyway), assisted the war effort as neutrals - though a few sharing your views had for Franco as Blueshirts
Ireland was Governed at the time by a right-wing religious administration, so they can be fairly described as your lot as well
You rightists make me laugh - you can't distinguish who is yours and who is theirs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:24 AM

well i think first and last, he wanted to be a great writer. it made him somewhat self centred. political truth telling and family loyalties came a long way second.

but such single mindedness to produce art, can alienate people. as you know from the way Ewan seems to have rubbed so many people up the wrong way.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:49 AM

Foreign Troops/British Army

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 09:31 AM

"Bloody right they did, today I hope that the British Government shreds the passports of any who have gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars. They represented a potential danger as much then as they do now"

Should this also pertain to foreign governments and their treatment of their nationals, for instance the Nepalese Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:55 AM

"Ewan seems to have rubbed so many people up the wrong way."
Only by saying what he believed
It never bothered me, even though I was on the receivin end occasionally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:24 AM

gone abroad to fight as private citizen volunteers in someone else's wars.

Like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?