BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing

Subject: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:32 PM

So no vast network of discontented muslims.

Not a freedom fighter combating the ghastly Brits, with a deep insight into our imperialist past.

Just an unhinged individual whom a caring society would have sorted out, and whom the authorities had been alerted about - but decided to do nothing for.

Told ya!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 04:34 AM

"Acted alone" is a very convenient label and allows the authorities off the hook and saves them much embarrassment. How do you know it is the truth though?

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:06 AM

Precisely Iains, the truth of the matter is that due to the appalling leak and lack of judgement on the part of the NY Times we will never know as within 24 hours of the attack anyone who did provide help had been tipped off, could destroy any trace of any link and disappear and that is more than likely why the police investigation found nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:19 AM

well i don't know that it does.

my dad, after doing his 25 years as a cop with war service retrained as nurse in mental hospitals.

during the 1970's - the idea that big mental hospitals were somehow morally wrong became current and it chimed in very well with the government plans to save money. dad became very concerned about the number of 'human time bombs' that were being released out onto the streets.

of course this was as nothing to the Thatcher big idea of 'care in the community'. during that time i did a short teaching contract in the Derby suburb of Mickleover - where there was a large mental hospital being dismantled. the local shopkeepers on the high street of Mickleover were distressed at the strange and sad patterns of behaviour of the people passing their shops.

mental illness affects many of us at sometime in life. we need to protect both the sufferers and the general public better.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

A support network could not destroy all trace of its existence simply by getting tipped off - mobile phone, web search and email records? eyewitness recollections from neighbours?   sales receipts? airline bookings? employers' records of when holidays were taken? electricity meter readings to say when people were at home? border control logs?

On the other hand, all that could suddenly become invisible to the police if MI5 told them it had to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:10 AM

Truth is never binary. Truth is a value. Truth is emotional, it's fluid, and above all, it's human.

as said by Markham Nolan - in a TED.com talk on finding the truth from the deluge of internet factoids.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:12 AM

He was not a "lone nutter" Islamic Jihadists and those who protect and apologise for them are all "nutters"

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:42 AM

Just an unhinged individual whom a caring society would have sorted out, and whom the authorities had been alerted about - but decided to do nothing for.

The authorities are aware of 23 000 such "unhinged" individuals. That is an overwhelming number. What could the authorities do to "sort them out?"

Would it be acceptable to round them all up in order to "sort them out?"

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:05 AM

Yes, for tea and cakes with Corbyn & Carrolburger!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:16 AM

"Yes, for tea and cakes with Corbyn & Carrolburger!!!!!"
Many thanks for putting me with soomebody worth associating with
Enjoy your pint with Theresa May lads - maybe you can talk about the kicking she has just given the economy and the cancellation of the Queen's speech
Would love to be a fly on the wall of that one
"The authorities are aware of 23 000 such "unhinged" individuals."
And how many arrests?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 09:23 AM

I see the InfoWars triplets are at it again......

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 09:40 AM

here we go again - 23 thousand, and he's got the papers to prove it.

reminds me a bit of the tramp, Davies in the Harold Pinter play No Fixed Abode - he was in a mess, cos he needed his papers.

take america - there anyone can get a gun. bonkers as Bugs Bunny..? Never mind, come into the gun fair and buy a sten gun, we take cards...

even over there, with a president nutty as Thornton's Praline Soft Centres - there aren't a lot of people walking that far on the wild side.

they could sort it. theres no need to be executing people who think their cell is full of chickens. we could certainly sort it, if we had the compassion and political will.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:54 AM

Al, you said, "Just an unhinged individual whom a caring society would have sorted out, and whom the authorities had been alerted about - but decided to do nothing for."

I explained why they had not been sorted out. There are just too many of them.

If that was not the problem, another problem would be that they do not want to be sorted out. They would have to be taken forcibly and remember that they are not known to have broken any laws. Happy with that?

Jim,
"The authorities are aware of 23 000 such "unhinged" individuals."
And how many arrests?

They can be arrested if there is evidence that they are planning an attack, and a number of attacks have been foiled and convictions made.

The Westminster killer, the Manchester bomber, and two of the London Bridge killers were known to the authorities, along with 23 000 others, but were guilty of no known crime before they struck.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:48 AM

"There are just too many of them."
We don't know how many there are
How many have been arrested?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:59 AM

Greg F. I presume you have a hotline to God since as usual you presume to know everything about everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:45 PM

i totally disagree. the point is that we just don't bloody care. we care nowt and we do nowt about

The remedial education inspector of schools in Brum where i started my career was a geezer called Tansley. He told us back then that the physical environment was causing brain damage in up to 70% of children in brum.
Then theres been the marvellous work done by Jamie OLiver who has campaigned tirelessly for us to stop poisoning our kids with cheap shit food.

There is so much we could do preventitively to stop mental illness in children.

We are overcrowded. We have a society with virtually no opportunities for many young people. The expensive toys of the rich are dangled in front of poor people 24 hours a day in advertising.

Education is a cut price cock up. Society is such a sodding mess that we have simply given up on training our own nurses, doctors, even bloody football players.

Small wonder we have a population going quietly mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 02:44 PM

There have always been periods in our history when towns and cities were extremely overcrowded (eg Victorian times, when people migrated to the cities for work), folk were very poor, children and indeed adults had to be content with 'cheap shit food', there were no opportunities for many young people save down the mines, in the mills or out in the fields. Before the NHS most people had no access to doctors, nurses or even a decent education. However I don't believe that the population was 'going quietly mad' then.

We need to investigate why certain individuals are mentally deranged and I wonder if it's because they feel alienated. By that I mean they are unsure of their identity or their place in society as a whole. They seek some sort of recognition, even if it means achieving it by violent and murderous acts.

The Dunblane killer had been rejected for youth work (for legitimate reasons) and felt ostracised and lonely. This provoked the terrible vengeance he wrought on that school. I'm sure the jihadi terrorists feel their religion is despised by the rest of us, and are drawn in by brain-washing fundamentalists as it's a better alternative to a powerless and fruitless life. Even mass-murderers have often been abused as children and have become dangerously hate-filled.

I am not advocating one gives killers cuddles. They need first and foremost to be securely detained, to protect us all. And I do think criminal justice must be brought to bear, and due punishment/containment meted out.

But we would do well to try to understand and get to the bottom of the root causes of anti-social acts and individual rebellion and violence.

It's basically the old 'mad or bad' dilemma isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 04:19 PM

Greg F. I presume you have a hotline to God

Not at all-

At least I don't have a direct line to Alex Jones, Howard Nema, and Michael Savage as YOU do, sunshine.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:03 AM

"It's basically the old 'mad or bad' dilemma isn't it? "

No, it's both mad and bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

Jim,
"There are just too many of them."
We don't know how many there are

We do not know how many there are, but police and security forces know of 20 000 sympathisers and another 3 000 considered to be an actual risk. The recent killers were just thought to be sympathisers.

Al,
and we do nowt about

What can be done faced with so many?

. We have a society with virtually no opportunities for many young people.

Most recent terrorists have received further education and many university education.
There have been engineers, doctors and other medical professionals.

As Senoufou says , we have always had issues of deprivation.
That does not explain the recent problem of radical Islamic terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:24 AM

Greg F As usual you have nothing to contribute, other than an attempt to troll. As a "sunshine" it is gratifying to know I shed a ray of enlightenment in your sad little negative world. It must be time for your daily propaganda medicine from CNN and the NYT. Who knows? given enough time you might see the light! but you really must change your reading habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:29 AM

I personally hold to the view that if a person is mentally ill (from whatever cause) they cannot be blamed for their actions, no matter how pernicious. If a person is, however, merely evil/wicked and misanthropic, then it's more appropriate to administer some form of punishment. The problem lies in being able to distinguish between the two. Psychiatrists and other experts have debated this ad infinitum over the years.
I don't believe one can be mad and bad simultaneously.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:46 AM

"I don't believe one can be mad and bad simultaneously."
What about Lord Byron who was "Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know "
"We do not know how many there are, but police and security forces know of 20 000 sympathisers and another 3 000 considered to be an actual risk. The recent killers were just thought to be sympathisers."
The Government appear never to have believed that otherwise they would never have cut the numbers of the police and the security services.
"Sympathisers" is a meaningless accusation - does that mean they are potential terrorists or just that they are pissed off with the abuse and racism that has been rained down on them for decades
There have ben no declarations of open support from any section of the Muslim community - on the contrary, these attacts have been condemned unreservedly by them
That condemnation merits support, not quotes of meaningless and unresearched figures which cast suspicion over all British Muslims
People who do this are dancing to Isis's tune - they/you are as much a part of the problem as potential bombers.
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:57 AM

'Mad, bad and dangerous to know' was an assessment of Lord Byron by Lady Caroline Lamb, not a psychiatric specialist.

Having a Muslim husband, I'm very encouraged by the reactions of the mainstream Muslim organisations regarding the terrorist attacks. If they'd been in any way condoning them, no doubt my husband would have had some (totally unjustified) overt or covert condemnation from people around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:26 AM

the Columbine shooters had apparently glittering futures in front of them.
its a sort of Leopold and Loeb syndrome.

I personally would like to see the mighty in this land cast down, and often i would like to express my discontent.
never more than when i switch on my telly. two hundred channels of shite.
no one expressing my views. no one playing my kind of music. no drama, just dysfunctional cops chasing after serial killers....

we're all fucking alienated. but i've never fancied joining the serial killers.
i mean - that's where it goes wrong, isn't it? its not thinking you need to wash your feet five times a day to get to heaven,or thinking that the world is flat, or that Donald Trump is a great guy...
the cutoff point is killing people.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

It is indeed all very depressing Big Al, and if one isn't careful, one can get bogged down in despair.

I find I can lift myself up again by reaching out to others in tiny ways, looking for the good things to counteract the bad and having a good laugh whenever possible.

TV can be entertaining, not all gloom and doom. I enjoy documentaries on almost any subject, comedy shows like Mock The Week and Mrs Brown's Boys, programmes on music genres (such as those on BBC 4 and BBC 2 recently) and the Music channel with all the latest hits.

I find ordinary people are usually very well-disposed. I natter to anyone on buses, in queues, at the supermarket etc and always come away smiling.
And the odd crumpet dripping with butter cheers me up no end!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:26 AM

In the last few days I've had square crumpets and a giant crumpet. No crumpet worthy of the name should ever leave your plate without leaving a little pool of excess butter to mop up. This has got to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:51 AM

"No one can be bad and mad simultaneously" Hmmmm I don't agree, he did not appear mad to people who knew him.

Are we not all mad to some extent?   We are certainly not all bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:53 AM

We cannot allow psychiatry to excuse these Jihadist criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:31 AM

Steve, you're right! I love licking that melted butter off the plate at the end of a crumpet orgy.
Er...you know that couple called Mr & Mrs Smack.....

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:38 AM

"We cannot allow psychiatry to excuse these Jihadist criminals."
Any more than we can allow archaic pig-ignorance to rule out any possible reason for these events, to do so would be to go into 'lynch-mob' mode
Like it or not, it is the job of the experts to decide whether these people are criminals or insane,
Nobody here, as far as I am aware, is qualified to decide what motivates these people and if there is any blame on the part of our government, then we have to accept that fact and do something about it.
I notice from this mornings papers that the world has been given a second chance to make up for past mistakes - in Argentina, Morocco and Russia, where civil rights protests are once again hitting the fan.
Let's hope our world leaders don't drop the ball again this time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:00 PM

The huge majority of the Russian population support President Putin, he has given his country a place on the world stage...and given it back it's self respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:01 PM

Jim,
"Sympathisers" is a meaningless accusation - does that mean they are potential terrorists or just that they are pissed off with the abuse and racism that has been rained down on them for decades

Abedi is a good example.
Members of the Muslim community reported him speaking in support of terrorists and saying it was OK to be a suicide bomber.
That is what I meant by "sympathiser" and it does not get you onto the watch list of 3000, you are just one of the 20 000.

There have ben no declarations of open support from any section of the Muslim community - on the contrary, these attacts have been condemned unreservedly by them

No-one disputes that Jim.

That condemnation merits support, not quotes of meaningless and unresearched figures which cast suspicion over all British Muslims

What meaningless and unresearched figures?
The figures I gave are from the police and security services of all the suspects they are aware of.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:17 PM

"Abedi is a good example."
On whhat grounds do you make this outrageous suggestion.
Do you have any actual evidence that Muslims heard him incite bombing, if so, what wasn't he arrested?
Sorry Keith - this gets darker and darker
Meaningless unresearched figures are just that - meaningless
They coul be based on 'guilty by association', or local gossip, or just vindictive revenge taking
If they had any basis they would have led to at least questioning or, if valid, detention and questioning.
If the government took them seriously they would not have reduced the police/security budget.
This is little more than hate-mongering.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:17 PM

"Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday.
The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed.
About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services. The 20,000 others have featured in previous inquiries and are categorised as posing a "residual risk".
The two terrorists who have struck in Britain this year — Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber, and Khalid Masood, the Westminster killer — were in the pool of "former subjects of interest" and no longer subject to any surveillance."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:19 PM

Jim,
Do you have any actual evidence that Muslims heard him incite bombing, if so, what wasn't he arrested?

yes. One of those who reported him gave interviews to the media.
You can not be arrested for just expressing sympathy and willingness.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:01 PM

The poor unfortunate misunderstood and alienated "nutter" went to the trouble of dropping out of his studies and using the money from his student loan to travel to Libya and to Syria. While there he associated with known Jihadi terrorists as did his father who after having fled Gaddafi's Libya returned there in 2011. Abedi was taught how to construct a bomb there, not off the internet in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:39 PM

if he wasn't misunderstood....DO explain your superior understanding.

however - please leave out the looney tunes statistics. 4 out of 5 cats think Earl Haig was brilliant etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:54 PM

As you would not be the slightest bit interested in anything other than your own views Big Al why ask - "no one expressing my views. no one playing my kind of music." - Poor old you. Ever thought that your views and "your" music just might not be generally popular - not anybody's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:59 PM

"The poor unfortunate misunderstood and alienated "nutter" "
Your phrase - nobody else's
The argument is that the decision of wwhy he did it or what he is should not be down to the vengeful ravings of
KLANSMEN like yourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:19 PM

Nurse, nurse.......25 mg IM Chlorpromazine.....STAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:34 AM

Jim, I think we all know what the KKK is.
The question is why behave like an utter fool? Everyone here with any comprehension knows Teribus has nothing in common with that group.

The discussion does not involve the KKK in any way and you simply bring it up to divert attention from your lack of any sort of argument.


I refer you again to the admirably honest and perceptive Miss Coulter.

"If liberals were prevented from ever again calling conservatives dumb, they would be robbed of half their arguments. To be sure, they would still have "racist," "fascist," "homophobe," "ugly," and a few other highly nuanced arguments in the quiver. But the loss of "dumb" would nearly cripple them."

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:01 AM

"Teribus has nothing in common with that group."
His views often coincide as do yours "admirably honest and perceptive Miss Coulter" would be the example I would have sought out - thank you for saving me the trouble.
I think that the most important statement from this affair came from Labour candidate Mike Katz:
"Driving Muslims away isn't going to make the [jihadist] problem go away; it's going to exacerbate the problem,"
The statement echoes that made by London Mayor, Tariq Sadiq when he described the aim of Isis was to "drive a wdge between Muslims and the rest of the world"
Conjuring up a threat of thousands of terrorist suspects from the Muslim communities when we have no idea what the police suspects are suspected of does just that - it creates an atmosphere of fear and mistrust towards a million or so people living in Britain and it plays right into the hands of Isis in making our Muslim communities 'The Enemy Within'
People who indulge in this scaremongering are doing their job for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:25 AM

Some thoughts of the "admirably honest and perceptive Miss Coulter" on the Muslim people.
America should "invade their [Muslim] countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."
"Congress could pass a law tomorrow requiring that all aliens from Arabic countries leave."
"Camel-riding nomads" and suggested that Muslims be banned from air travel and "use flying carpets" to get around"
'Raghead talks tough, raghead faces consequences", then added "Sorry, I realize that's offensive. How about 'camel jockey'?"
"Think of all the wonderful things refugees are bringing to Europe! Rape, murder, car burnings – list is endless!"
This moronic fascist must surely be in the pay of Isis?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:27 AM

Conjuring up a threat of thousands of terrorist suspects from the Muslim communities when we have no idea what the police suspects are suspected of does just that -

So we, and presumably government, should ignore what the police and security services tell us?
Should we refuse to even read or listen to what they say?

"Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday.
The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed.
About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services. The 20,000 others have featured in previous inquiries and are categorised as posing a "residual risk".
The two terrorists who have struck in Britain this year — Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber, and Khalid Masood, the Westminster killer — were in the pool of "former subjects of interest" and no longer subject to any surveillance."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:50 AM

"The argument is that the decision of wwhy he did it or what he is should not be down to the vengeful ravings of
KLANSMEN like yourselves"
   Very difficult to question a corpse. If it looks like a terrorist, dresses like a terrorist and acts like a terrorist, then I would be deeply upset if the authorities did not treat him/her like a terrorist.
To be honest their mental state is a total irrelevance. If you pose a threat to society you need to be neutralised quickly. If that method of neutralisation involves them getting shot- so be it. Congratulations to those responsible for the timely intervention.
Are you going to wait for a psychiatric counsellor to arrive while a crazy is fiddling with the detonator. You must be as crazy as they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:29 AM

" Very difficult to question a corpse"
Not too difficult if you take the statements of his family and friends into consideration.
They put it down to the racist killing of his friend
"To be honest their mental state is a total irrelevance."
In the matter of how they are dealt with it most certainly is not - if they turn out to be insane you cannot punish them as criminals; that would be a human rights abuse open to International prosecution.
It would also debase us as a society.
Shooting has to be the last resort, particularly when you recall the Aldwich Tube execution
"You must be as crazy as they are."
Isn't that a prejudgment of both the people we are talking about and those who happen to disagree with you?
Real 'rope over the nearest branch' stuff
"So we, and presumably government, should ignore what the police and security services tell us?"
No - we take it in the context is which it has been made.
The police don't know how many there are - the arrest rate over the years indicates that there aren't that many.
The term "jihadist" is meaningless in the way it is being used - it covers those who feel they have a grievance with the non-Muslim world right though to those who thought the West should have intervened in Syria and went off to support the fight against Assad, which doesn't make them extremists in any shape or form, just outraged human beings.
The Manchester bomber you cited brings in yet another category, a mentally disturbed man who was outraged about his friend being killed by a racist - SFA to do with Jihhandism, Islamism or any other type of ism.
This blanket use of such terms and linking all "suspects" together as a homogeneous bunch is doing massive damage to the fight against Isis and is closing down any chance of co-operation from the communities whose support and assistance we desperately need.
You have yet to respond to the fact that the Government did not appear to treat the assessed figures seriously when they cut down the numbers of police and security forces.
The very nature of Isis terrorism makes it essential that the fight must be more about making friends in the Muslim communities rather than alienating them by presenting them as suspects.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:54 AM

Jim Look carefully at what you have written. If they pose a threat they need to be neutralised. If you want to question a suicide bomber as he is about to detonate a bomb, more fool you.
I do not care if he had a deprived childhood, got scratched by his cat, or had the latest jihadi training. Threats need to be eradicated by all means possible.
In the US nearly a hundred people are killed on the roads each day, in the UK 5.
You bleat about one oxygen scavenger less in the world while cars kill thousands. I csannot believe you are real.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:16 AM

No - you read what I wrote Iains
I referred to how should be dealt wit on they had been neutralised and specified punishment
I also pointed ot that shooting should be a last resort - which as always been police policy as far back as I can remember
Stop distorting what I have written
Glad you brought up America the land of the free and the gun-happy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:59 AM

Congressman Scalise , chief Republican white Supremist whip shot along with 4 others practicing baseball in VA this AM.
He is expected to recover.