Horrendous tower-block fire in W London

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:53 PM

m of H. Kicking it in the long grass shows a woeful ignorance of the purpose of a public enquiry.

"Public inquiries investigate issues of serious public concern, scrutinising past decisions and events. It is therefore crucial that information created or used during the course of an inquiry is managed to ensure its survival for future policy makers and researchers.

Without effective information management right from the start a public inquiry will struggle to run efficiently, justify its findings or provide a lasting record.

Public inquiries are conducted on behalf of the Crown, which therefore means that records created or given to the inquiry are public records as defined by the Public Records Act 1958. Those responsible for public records, including the chairman of a public inquiry, have a duty to make arrangements for the selection of those records which ought to be permanently preserved and for their safe-keeping. Under the Inquiry Rules 2006 it is also the responsibility of the chairman to ensure 'the record of the inquiry is comprehensive and well-ordered'.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:43 PM

Yes it would McGrath. Jobsworths do not respect social status. They are just as capable of cutting corners whatever the margins.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:26 PM

This kind of cost cutting and failure to put safety as a priority would never have been possible in luxury developments. Even if the authorities have irresponsibly failed in its duties, with the result that unsafe materials are not banned by building regulations, no such development would ever have cut safety standards to that bare legal minimum.

In that sense, this was indeed a class issue.

Kicking all this into the long grass with the kind of public inquiry designed to last for years before reporting is inadequate. Theresa May knows she will be well out of it by the time it reports. And yet she stonewalls every time, and never admits even a shred of resoonsibility. You can't even call it shamefaced, but she never indicates any kind of shame. I wonder what her vicar father would have thought of her.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:23 PM

I think you will find the police are automatically involved because of the horrendous death toll and difficulty of identifying the casualties.
To say it is a criminal investigation without full possession of the facts is premature.Many other areas of expertise will have to be involved to establish what, if, any contraventions have occurred and what will need to be done to prevent a repeat.This will be an essential part of the promised public enquiry.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:01 PM

This is a failure of process, an engineering and health and safety issue. The Mail is attributing it to environmental legislation, the Guardian (and Jim) to inequality. Its none of these. Its a complete stuff up which could just as easily have happened in an affluent area as in a deprived area. Now if governments have relaxed building standards regulations, or if management companies and subcontractors have failed to apply these correctly, then lets go after them. But please don't pretend its a class issue, it just isn't.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:52 PM

treeza was just getting grilled on BBC news...

[at last.. they're giving her some of the relentless antagonistic treatment they'd previously targetted at Corbyn...]

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:34 PM

Protests by angry survivors have already begun
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:05 AM

I see the police are looking into the possibility of criminal charges against those responsible.

I wouldn't adviseholding your breath. If, as seems likely, the cladding is the essential cause, and the planning regulations in this country mean it's legal to use the combustible kind banned in Germany and the US, I can't see how people could be found guilty, however irreponsible they had been to allow its use. The most guilty people would walk free.

Perhaps it will turn out that some contracted workers will have drilled holes in the wrong place, and they'd be the ones to be surrogate scapegoats.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Very thoughtful post Sen.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:54 AM

Nice to see the Queen out and about...
good to see her family taking her out to a community day care centre...

She must think ordinary lower class folks live there lives side by side in line politely waiting for regal gestures of goodwill and understanding...

Even in a catastrophic emegency crisis...

"Ok team, drop everything.. line up side by side.. Liz & Phil are on their way with media and security entourage..
no smirking or bad language..
All you lefty loudmouths and agitators can bugger off outside for a fag break, or nip out to the shops, until the royals have gone home..."

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:09 AM

I see from reports that Theresa May was initially reluctant to meet survivors and make a more personal visit to the site. She perhaps felt that a low-key attendance was more restrained and respectful. But she has now decided to return and be more 'hands on'. Corbyn however was hugging and comforting people personally and showing his feelings more openly from the start.

To me this is interesting, and demonstrates two different attitudes and approaches to demonstrating sympathy. Touchy-feely responses, lighting candles, setting up shrines and so on is quite a new phenomenon. Perhaps the first examples of this were seen after the very sad death of Diana Princess of Wales.

I personally don't know how to behave in sad circumstances nowadays. My instinct is to offer a hug and a shoulder to cry on, but not everyone would welcome that. And when I was growing up, such demonstrative behaviour was much frowned upon. ('Stiff upper lip' and all that)
I don't feel that Theresa May should be criticised for her restraint, as people have different ways of responding. I'm sure she felt immense sorrow and shock, as does everyone watching this horror unfold.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 06:25 AM

"there is no possible excuse for this happening to our citizens."
There is no possible excuse for it happening ANYWHERE, but say that in hushed tones as we fill our shops with goods made by people wh live and work in such conditions.
It really isn't surprising that this happened to some of the most deprived people in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

There is a lot of talk about sprinklers. And the leader of the local council was trying to deflect the arguement by saying they have to be embedded in the fabric of the building, and that poses risks too.

In my naive view they may not stop a fire, or prevent it spreading, but they would certainly delay it, and ask any fireman/prevention officer and they will tell you, time is a saviour. At a reported £5000 per residence!

There are considerations about damage to the sprinklers in everyday living, hence embedding. Water supply problems, and once fire takes hold, water pipes' integrity. But the fire started in one place and it was at a time when water was not much used. I refer you to the delaying of spreading.

It would have saved lives, how many of the not in triple figures (?) would now be alive? They are required in new build!

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:54 PM

According to today's papers, while it is made in US, it's made in several versions. The cheaper, non-fireproof version used in the Grenfull Tower is banned for use in any tall buildings in the US, because of fire risk. It's banned also in various other countries. But it"s not banned in the UK, because calls for it to be banned.

Using the fireproof version of the material would have cost about another £5000 for this building.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:38 PM

michaelr: How is it even possible that flammable cladding was used in the "upgrade" of the building? And that there were no central fire alarms? Here in the US that would never get past the code inspectors.

The cladding is actually a US product, Reynobond, made in Eastman, Georgia, and is used widely in the US and worldwide.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:11 PM

it sounds like something you hear happening in the third world.
there is no possible excuse for this happening to our citizens.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:44 PM

It seems that many people received instructions to stay in their apartments and wait for the fire to be brought under control, this contributed to the death toll.

The cladding was without doubt the cause of the rapid spread of the fire, the outside of the tower block was ablaze while people waited inside with no knowledge of what was happening.
The original fire, supposedly for a fridge explosion??? was the reason for the ignition of the cladding. It took over an hour for the cladding to ignite....so why was the alarm not raised and the building vacated during this period?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:27 PM

Looking at the footage this fire was extremely severe and the building apparently had no sprinkler system. Yet structurally it is still intact.
This does raise some questions as to the official story of the collapse of building 7 so many years ago, does it not?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:09 PM

Apparently the cost of installing sprinkler system was the reason they were lacking according to one news analysis on TV

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 12:13 PM

she completely ignored all three questions in her response

Did she serve an apprenticeship with Jeff 'Davis' Sessions?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

I was just looking at a BBC clip of Theresa May giving a brief interview in which she announced that there's to be a public inquiry.

The thing that struck me was how, asked three things, she completely ignored all three questions in her response (you can't call it an answer). It's instinctive with her. I can't remember a single occasion in which she has actually given any indication that she has heard whatever she has been asked. She really is a piece of work.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:10 AM

Some of us will argue that Corporate UK TV news services have actually become far too over sanitised and harsh reality adverse
within the last few decades...

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:04 AM

Now we know what a "bonfire of regulations" looks like.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:10 AM

"what kind of society have we become?"
A society capable on rising above the anodising of these events - a mixed blessing
I haven't spotted much spurious curiosity so far and I am grateful to be able to view the tragedy before the establishment begin to neutralise it on behalf of Chelsea and Kensingtong Council, as they inevitably will
It's a little like the approach to Capital Punishment - it's OK as long as we don't have to watch.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

That kind of thing has always been around in one way and another. There's a kind of fascination with the details of disaster and death. Think of the crowds at public executions, or the way many people slow down to look at road accidents.

The other side of it is the way people can rush to help and to provide assistance for total strangers, and that's been very evident this time. And that's just as much a measure of "what our society has become".

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:55 AM

Gallus...couldn't agree more, and some of the TV interviewers were actually prompting witnesses to the horror to obtain the most graphic descriptions........they seemed to be almost salivating.

Disgusting and completely unnecessary.......what kind of society have we become?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:28 PM

Kensington Council - who own the flats, which are managed by the KCTMO - didn't actually ignore the warnings by Grenfall Actions Group. Of course they didn't do anything to reduce the danger. What they did do was to threaten legal action against, in an attempt to shut them up.

Here is a solicitors letter from 2013 to the group.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:11 PM

I agree entirely. It's just gratuitous horror for its own sake. Surely the building engulfed in flames was enough to convey the situation to the viewing public.

Just saw the latest pictures of the building now (in the dark) and it's still glowing red, obviously still burning in spite of the fire fighters' efforts. The heat must have been tremendous.

I'm really worried for the poor survivors tonight. Probably sleeping in community centres and sports halls etc., totally disorientated and in deep shock.   Poor poor souls.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:10 PM

"But it's far too late for the powers-that-be to express concern and utter the usual platitudes such as 'lessons will be learnt' "
I seem to remember similar platitudes were expressed after Ronan Point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:03 PM

The initial tv reports were pretty graphic / unedited through last night and earlier in the day, but there is no excuse for the extended news this evening showing a baby being dropped out of a window (and apparently caught by a man on the ground) - and worse, zoomed in shots of poor trapped souls screaming and waving for help, to be saved , trying to attract attention to their plight.
I think it is immoral to use this agony, possibly their last moments, as 'entertainment' - -- it is certainly not for informing the public, graphic illustration of peoples' terror and perhaps dying moments is not acceptable.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:58 PM

A fair amount already seems pretty clear. The essential cause of the disaster was the fact that the fire spread catastrophically, and this was enabled by the kind of cladding which was used, which has a relatively combustible layer at its core.

Other factors contributed - the lack of any sprinkler system, of the sort that is universal in modern offices and in private residential developments, and no doubt other things - but what shaped everything, and made things so disastrous was the rapid spread of the fire.

But the physical cause is only the start of it. What matters is to make it impossible for this to happen again, which is going to mean major building work all over the place, getting rid of fire hazards like this kind of cladding wherever it has been used. And alongside that, finding how it was allowed to happen, and how all the lessons of previous fires had been ignored. If there are scapegoats, they need to be the right ones, at the top.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:40 PM

How is it even possible that flammable cladding was used in the "upgrade" of the building? And that there were no central fire alarms? Here in the US that would never get past the code inspectors.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:38 PM

The reports in the US, where I live, are covering the firefighters in glory,
describing them racing up stairways with hoses, trying to get water as high up as possible.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:37 PM

From the little known so far it would appear a public enquiry is the only sensible course to pursue. Mealy mouthed platitudes from politicians of all stripes simply will not cut it. There are too many unresolved questions over this horrendous incident that require a root and branch overhaul of both fire safety in high rise building and the equipment and staffing levels of the fire service. The bravery and dedication of the fire service is beyond question, but are their tools
sufficient for this sort of fire? especially as it was not thought it possible.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:20 PM

(It is in BS Peter. It was my own fault that I initially posted it in the Music section by mistake, but the Mods moved it for me.)

I feel that enormous sums of compensation should be paid to all the survivors, not that it will do anything for the bereaved and those with lifelong injuries of course. It will however help them to replace their belongings and get them comfortably housed. None of this is their fault and the owners/managers of the property are wholly to blame. They can demolish the burnt-out shell of the building, sell the site for a vast sum to an enormously rich property developer, and give all the proceeds to the pitiable victims.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:07 PM

So the fire escapes were blocked and there were no fire alarms? Smart work, gang - you've got it sorted. Investigations not needed. (Could this thread be moved to BS?)

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:02 PM

"If there are lessons to be learnt..." was how Theresa May put it. That "if" is breathtaking in this situation. It won't be long before it's "with the benefit of hindsight", as it always is when what's actually involved is a failure of basic foresight, and a failure to take notice of warnings.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:40 PM

It's ironic that while the victims of the disaster were poor, this area of London includes some of the most wealthy places. Kensington is an odd mix of rich-and-poor. Notting Hill (trendy) and Kensington Palace are not far away. (I know W London quite well)

I'm not a bit surprised people are furious. But it's far too late for the powers-that-be to express concern and utter the usual platitudes such as 'lessons will be learnt' etc.

One thing which heartened me was to see the wonderful fellow feeling and mutual help offered. All ethnic groups and religions were represented. But of course, all the sympathy and help in the world don't compensate for losing all one's possessions and worse still beloved family members.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:58 PM

The sympathy and anguish now appears to be turning into anger
Half a dozen people have described this as an accident waiting to happen and have told how the authorities were warned about this years ago.
They are also pointing out that the block was largely occupied by some of Britain's poorest people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM

I have a very elderly well-off friend who lives in a flat in a building for 'independent-living' retired folk. It's only four storeys high, but every Tuesday they have a full fire drill. The fire alarm is very loud. There are teams among the managers who run around closing fire doors and mustering staff at Fire Points. The lifts are stopped and the whole thing is very impressive. But even there, the residents are told NOT to leave their flats but to wait until the Fire Brigade arrive to evacuate them. My friend understandably said she would rather flee the building than wait to be grilled to a crisp.

But these are quite wealthy people and the whole concern is privately run and very luxurious. I just wonder now what the Social Housing tenants in the two tower blocks near B&Q I mentioned above have in place for (God forbid) a similar scenario. Maybe now, things will change...

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:54 PM

To have "staying put" as the main directive for the safety of residents in the case of a fire seems as though lessons have not been learnt in the last nearly 30 years. To go back to the tragic events of Piper Alpha,those in the accommodation block were encouraged to stay put by the Offshore Installation Manager [OIM] to await rescue. Yet, as the Cullen Report makes clear, to remain there meant certain death.
High above the ground or high above the sea the risk of fire poses a similar hazard and mechanisms should be in place for evacuation.I would argue the vetting of refurbishment should be far more stringent than the original build with a detailed risk analysis for all operations and building modifications. A fire of this magnitude and severity with it's attendant death toll should never have happened.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:45 PM

There are tower blocks which have been upgraded and prettifed and sold as luxury flats. The people living in them must be feeling very worried now, in case they used the same cladding system as in this block.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:35 PM

That song expresses it well Brian. Poorer people can only envy those privileged folk who never have to endure appalling living conditions.

Interesting BBC News extended programme on just now. They're talking about the cladding (merely a cosmetic addition to try and tart up the shoddy building) which appears to have been instrumental in spreading the fire from floor to floor; and various (ineffectual) safety measures for high-rise residential buildings.

Death toll now at twelve, but this will probably rise, as they've interviewed many utterly distressed people who have had no word from family members, including several families with two or three children.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:19 PM

I'm reminded of Leon Rosselson's song, 'Palaces of Gold'.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:51 PM

The firefighters of the London Fire Brigade deserve medals. I don't suppose they have ever before encountered such a hideous conflagration as this.
Even residents in the neighbourhood were being bombarded with burning ash and debris. But it seems everyone rallied round and offered food, drink and blankets.

The appalling thing about the now homeless 'social housing tenants' is that, should they accept temporary accommodation from friends or family, the social services will put them at the end of their long lists for re-housing. That's absolutely disgraceful.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:21 PM

From the Fire Brigade:

firefighters have "searched almost all the building". They have managed to get to the top floor

They rescued 65 people who were handed over to London Ambulance Service.

Remarkable.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:20 PM

This would not set off fire alarms inside till the flames shattered the "windows and gained entry one floor after another."
It was stated today that this block was not fitted with fire alarms because the size of the flats made them go off at the slightest thing - like burning the toast
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:16 PM

"We have blogged* many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO, should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting…

The Grenfell Action Group predict that it won't be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the KCTMO management."

Seven months.


Clickie: https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

*[4 LINKS FOR PAST WARNINGS PROVIDED]

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:51 AM

It all seems horrible.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:07 AM

One thing is certain the fire was allowed to get out of control before the emergency was reported the guy who owned the flat raised the alarm after the fire took hold......looks to me like a gas fuelled fire in one flat which ignited the cladding and ran up the outside of the building.

This would not set off fire alarms inside till the flames shattered the windows and gained entry one floor after another.