Horrendous tower-block fire in W London

Subject: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:26 AM

The fire started at about 1am and within minutes the entire building (27 storeys I believe) was ablaze. It's now completely burned out and still smoking. No-one knows the number of lives lost, but it's obvious it will be high. It's as if the film Towering Inferno has been made reality.

I have always had concerns about high-rise dwellings. This one apparently had poor fire-protection, no fire-alarms went off, the fire escapes were blocked and the recent modernisation to the exterior consisted of apparently flammable sheets which accelerated the fire alarmingly.
The surviving residents (suffering great shock no doubt) have no possessions left, just their night clothes they stand up in. Many many people have not yet been traced. Some jumped to their death alight from the upper floors.

This is going to turn out to be a tragedy of a huge magnitude.
All residential tower blocks should be inspected after this, and made safer.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

The newly installed plastic cladding seems to have been a large part of the problem. How many other blocks has this been put on? Yes its a tragedy, six people seem to have died and around 50 injured at the present count.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:00 AM

Now - didn't they learn this lesson from the Fire of London yet?

Flammable roof/cladding close proximity of dwellings.

Given the design of the building the speed of response from the "disaster decision" makers it is also analogous, except in this case life is infinitely faster these days. Firefighters have an impossible task.

Whoever is responsible for the upkeep of the building should (& will) be charged with neglect, if not manslaughter. Didn't the Dubai Address Hotel & its cladding wake them up?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:27 AM

It's early days yet, but it does seem as if the block was badly equipped for this situation. As in the film, the firefighters could do very little to access the upper floors, since the whole building was thick with smoke and burning fiercely.

The terrible thing is that there are hundreds of these residential tower blocks in large cities, and no doubt several of them are equally badly-designed, dangerous death-traps.

It's often, though not always, the poorer families who inhabit this type of accommodation. The huge business and banking tower blocks in the City of London have apparently been far better constructed and are monitored regularly for fire regulations and so on. One can draw conclusions from that I suppose...

I felt a chill of horror when I saw this News this morning, as just yesterday, we were out at B&Q, where there are two residential tower blocks (practically the only ones in the Norwich area, I'm glad to say - we don't go in for high-rise architecture here in Norfolk) And we remarked how dreadful it would be if there were a fire.

My heart goes out to all caught up in this inferno.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:52 AM

A bit premature to talk about causes yet, but one being discussed widely is a possible degign faul which required tenants to stay put in their individual flats rather than trying to escape - no basic escape route
Each individual flat is supposed to be airtight and capable of retaining a fair, but recent installation has interfered with that system
The extent of the fire throughout the whole building is horrific.
I am familiar with the buildings in that area from my working days, I may even have worked in that particular block - Malvina Reanolds' 'Little Boxes' is a perfect description.
It's not far from the area where Lady Porter moved tenants into asbestos infested dwellings in order to sell off their former homes to families who were more likely to vote for her.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:58 AM

Putting combustible cladding on tower-blocks being refurbished is insane and criminal.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:06 AM

This_thread has some informed speculation, including on the cladding.

The fire should have been contained on the floor of the outbreak. There have been several cases where 'modernization' has compromised a building's fire-safety, for example by making holes between floors or voids above false ceilings.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:19 AM

I was struck by this, in that link Dave gave, from a tenant's action group writing last year:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

KCTMO - that's the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant's Management Organisation. Which of course isn't run by the Tenants.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:29 AM

"Which of course isn't run by the Tenants."
"Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Limited (KCTMO) is responsible for the management of nearly 10,000 properties on behalf of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: leeneia
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM

Senoufou, I agree about the need for inspections and correction of dangerous conditions.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:07 AM

One thing is certain the fire was allowed to get out of control before the emergency was reported the guy who owned the flat raised the alarm after the fire took hold......looks to me like a gas fuelled fire in one flat which ignited the cladding and ran up the outside of the building.

This would not set off fire alarms inside till the flames shattered the windows and gained entry one floor after another.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 11:51 AM

It all seems horrible.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:16 PM

"We have blogged* many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO, should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting…

The Grenfell Action Group predict that it won't be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the KCTMO management."

Seven months.


Clickie: https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

*[4 LINKS FOR PAST WARNINGS PROVIDED]

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:20 PM

This would not set off fire alarms inside till the flames shattered the "windows and gained entry one floor after another."
It was stated today that this block was not fitted with fire alarms because the size of the flats made them go off at the slightest thing - like burning the toast
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:21 PM

From the Fire Brigade:

firefighters have "searched almost all the building". They have managed to get to the top floor

They rescued 65 people who were handed over to London Ambulance Service.

Remarkable.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:51 PM

The firefighters of the London Fire Brigade deserve medals. I don't suppose they have ever before encountered such a hideous conflagration as this.
Even residents in the neighbourhood were being bombarded with burning ash and debris. But it seems everyone rallied round and offered food, drink and blankets.

The appalling thing about the now homeless 'social housing tenants' is that, should they accept temporary accommodation from friends or family, the social services will put them at the end of their long lists for re-housing. That's absolutely disgraceful.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:19 PM

I'm reminded of Leon Rosselson's song, 'Palaces of Gold'.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:35 PM

That song expresses it well Brian. Poorer people can only envy those privileged folk who never have to endure appalling living conditions.

Interesting BBC News extended programme on just now. They're talking about the cladding (merely a cosmetic addition to try and tart up the shoddy building) which appears to have been instrumental in spreading the fire from floor to floor; and various (ineffectual) safety measures for high-rise residential buildings.

Death toll now at twelve, but this will probably rise, as they've interviewed many utterly distressed people who have had no word from family members, including several families with two or three children.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:45 PM

There are tower blocks which have been upgraded and prettifed and sold as luxury flats. The people living in them must be feeling very worried now, in case they used the same cladding system as in this block.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:54 PM

To have "staying put" as the main directive for the safety of residents in the case of a fire seems as though lessons have not been learnt in the last nearly 30 years. To go back to the tragic events of Piper Alpha,those in the accommodation block were encouraged to stay put by the Offshore Installation Manager [OIM] to await rescue. Yet, as the Cullen Report makes clear, to remain there meant certain death.
High above the ground or high above the sea the risk of fire poses a similar hazard and mechanisms should be in place for evacuation.I would argue the vetting of refurbishment should be far more stringent than the original build with a detailed risk analysis for all operations and building modifications. A fire of this magnitude and severity with it's attendant death toll should never have happened.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM

I have a very elderly well-off friend who lives in a flat in a building for 'independent-living' retired folk. It's only four storeys high, but every Tuesday they have a full fire drill. The fire alarm is very loud. There are teams among the managers who run around closing fire doors and mustering staff at Fire Points. The lifts are stopped and the whole thing is very impressive. But even there, the residents are told NOT to leave their flats but to wait until the Fire Brigade arrive to evacuate them. My friend understandably said she would rather flee the building than wait to be grilled to a crisp.

But these are quite wealthy people and the whole concern is privately run and very luxurious. I just wonder now what the Social Housing tenants in the two tower blocks near B&Q I mentioned above have in place for (God forbid) a similar scenario. Maybe now, things will change...

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:58 PM

The sympathy and anguish now appears to be turning into anger
Half a dozen people have described this as an accident waiting to happen and have told how the authorities were warned about this years ago.
They are also pointing out that the block was largely occupied by some of Britain's poorest people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:40 PM

It's ironic that while the victims of the disaster were poor, this area of London includes some of the most wealthy places. Kensington is an odd mix of rich-and-poor. Notting Hill (trendy) and Kensington Palace are not far away. (I know W London quite well)

I'm not a bit surprised people are furious. But it's far too late for the powers-that-be to express concern and utter the usual platitudes such as 'lessons will be learnt' etc.

One thing which heartened me was to see the wonderful fellow feeling and mutual help offered. All ethnic groups and religions were represented. But of course, all the sympathy and help in the world don't compensate for losing all one's possessions and worse still beloved family members.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:02 PM

"If there are lessons to be learnt..." was how Theresa May put it. That "if" is breathtaking in this situation. It won't be long before it's "with the benefit of hindsight", as it always is when what's actually involved is a failure of basic foresight, and a failure to take notice of warnings.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:07 PM

So the fire escapes were blocked and there were no fire alarms? Smart work, gang - you've got it sorted. Investigations not needed. (Could this thread be moved to BS?)

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:20 PM

(It is in BS Peter. It was my own fault that I initially posted it in the Music section by mistake, but the Mods moved it for me.)

I feel that enormous sums of compensation should be paid to all the survivors, not that it will do anything for the bereaved and those with lifelong injuries of course. It will however help them to replace their belongings and get them comfortably housed. None of this is their fault and the owners/managers of the property are wholly to blame. They can demolish the burnt-out shell of the building, sell the site for a vast sum to an enormously rich property developer, and give all the proceeds to the pitiable victims.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 04:37 PM

From the little known so far it would appear a public enquiry is the only sensible course to pursue. Mealy mouthed platitudes from politicians of all stripes simply will not cut it. There are too many unresolved questions over this horrendous incident that require a root and branch overhaul of both fire safety in high rise building and the equipment and staffing levels of the fire service. The bravery and dedication of the fire service is beyond question, but are their tools
sufficient for this sort of fire? especially as it was not thought it possible.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:38 PM

The reports in the US, where I live, are covering the firefighters in glory,
describing them racing up stairways with hoses, trying to get water as high up as possible.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:40 PM

How is it even possible that flammable cladding was used in the "upgrade" of the building? And that there were no central fire alarms? Here in the US that would never get past the code inspectors.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 06:58 PM

A fair amount already seems pretty clear. The essential cause of the disaster was the fact that the fire spread catastrophically, and this was enabled by the kind of cladding which was used, which has a relatively combustible layer at its core.

Other factors contributed - the lack of any sprinkler system, of the sort that is universal in modern offices and in private residential developments, and no doubt other things - but what shaped everything, and made things so disastrous was the rapid spread of the fire.

But the physical cause is only the start of it. What matters is to make it impossible for this to happen again, which is going to mean major building work all over the place, getting rid of fire hazards like this kind of cladding wherever it has been used. And alongside that, finding how it was allowed to happen, and how all the lessons of previous fires had been ignored. If there are scapegoats, they need to be the right ones, at the top.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:03 PM

The initial tv reports were pretty graphic / unedited through last night and earlier in the day, but there is no excuse for the extended news this evening showing a baby being dropped out of a window (and apparently caught by a man on the ground) - and worse, zoomed in shots of poor trapped souls screaming and waving for help, to be saved , trying to attract attention to their plight.
I think it is immoral to use this agony, possibly their last moments, as 'entertainment' - -- it is certainly not for informing the public, graphic illustration of peoples' terror and perhaps dying moments is not acceptable.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:10 PM

"But it's far too late for the powers-that-be to express concern and utter the usual platitudes such as 'lessons will be learnt' "
I seem to remember similar platitudes were expressed after Ronan Point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:11 PM

I agree entirely. It's just gratuitous horror for its own sake. Surely the building engulfed in flames was enough to convey the situation to the viewing public.

Just saw the latest pictures of the building now (in the dark) and it's still glowing red, obviously still burning in spite of the fire fighters' efforts. The heat must have been tremendous.

I'm really worried for the poor survivors tonight. Probably sleeping in community centres and sports halls etc., totally disorientated and in deep shock.   Poor poor souls.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:28 PM

Kensington Council - who own the flats, which are managed by the KCTMO - didn't actually ignore the warnings by Grenfall Actions Group. Of course they didn't do anything to reduce the danger. What they did do was to threaten legal action against, in an attempt to shut them up.

Here is a solicitors letter from 2013 to the group.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 02:55 AM

Gallus...couldn't agree more, and some of the TV interviewers were actually prompting witnesses to the horror to obtain the most graphic descriptions........they seemed to be almost salivating.

Disgusting and completely unnecessary.......what kind of society have we become?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

That kind of thing has always been around in one way and another. There's a kind of fascination with the details of disaster and death. Think of the crowds at public executions, or the way many people slow down to look at road accidents.

The other side of it is the way people can rush to help and to provide assistance for total strangers, and that's been very evident this time. And that's just as much a measure of "what our society has become".

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:10 AM

"what kind of society have we become?"
A society capable on rising above the anodising of these events - a mixed blessing
I haven't spotted much spurious curiosity so far and I am grateful to be able to view the tragedy before the establishment begin to neutralise it on behalf of Chelsea and Kensingtong Council, as they inevitably will
It's a little like the approach to Capital Punishment - it's OK as long as we don't have to watch.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:04 AM

Now we know what a "bonfire of regulations" looks like.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:10 AM

Some of us will argue that Corporate UK TV news services have actually become far too over sanitised and harsh reality adverse
within the last few decades...

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

I was just looking at a BBC clip of Theresa May giving a brief interview in which she announced that there's to be a public inquiry.

The thing that struck me was how, asked three things, she completely ignored all three questions in her response (you can't call it an answer). It's instinctive with her. I can't remember a single occasion in which she has actually given any indication that she has heard whatever she has been asked. She really is a piece of work.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 12:13 PM

she completely ignored all three questions in her response

Did she serve an apprenticeship with Jeff 'Davis' Sessions?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:09 PM

Apparently the cost of installing sprinkler system was the reason they were lacking according to one news analysis on TV

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:27 PM

Looking at the footage this fire was extremely severe and the building apparently had no sprinkler system. Yet structurally it is still intact.
This does raise some questions as to the official story of the collapse of building 7 so many years ago, does it not?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:44 PM

It seems that many people received instructions to stay in their apartments and wait for the fire to be brought under control, this contributed to the death toll.

The cladding was without doubt the cause of the rapid spread of the fire, the outside of the tower block was ablaze while people waited inside with no knowledge of what was happening.
The original fire, supposedly for a fridge explosion??? was the reason for the ignition of the cladding. It took over an hour for the cladding to ignite....so why was the alarm not raised and the building vacated during this period?

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:11 PM

it sounds like something you hear happening in the third world.
there is no possible excuse for this happening to our citizens.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:38 PM

michaelr: How is it even possible that flammable cladding was used in the "upgrade" of the building? And that there were no central fire alarms? Here in the US that would never get past the code inspectors.

The cladding is actually a US product, Reynobond, made in Eastman, Georgia, and is used widely in the US and worldwide.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:54 PM

According to today's papers, while it is made in US, it's made in several versions. The cheaper, non-fireproof version used in the Grenfull Tower is banned for use in any tall buildings in the US, because of fire risk. It's banned also in various other countries. But it"s not banned in the UK, because calls for it to be banned.

Using the fireproof version of the material would have cost about another £5000 for this building.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

There is a lot of talk about sprinklers. And the leader of the local council was trying to deflect the arguement by saying they have to be embedded in the fabric of the building, and that poses risks too.

In my naive view they may not stop a fire, or prevent it spreading, but they would certainly delay it, and ask any fireman/prevention officer and they will tell you, time is a saviour. At a reported £5000 per residence!

There are considerations about damage to the sprinklers in everyday living, hence embedding. Water supply problems, and once fire takes hold, water pipes' integrity. But the fire started in one place and it was at a time when water was not much used. I refer you to the delaying of spreading.

It would have saved lives, how many of the not in triple figures (?) would now be alive? They are required in new build!

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 06:25 AM

"there is no possible excuse for this happening to our citizens."
There is no possible excuse for it happening ANYWHERE, but say that in hushed tones as we fill our shops with goods made by people wh live and work in such conditions.
It really isn't surprising that this happened to some of the most deprived people in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:09 AM

I see from reports that Theresa May was initially reluctant to meet survivors and make a more personal visit to the site. She perhaps felt that a low-key attendance was more restrained and respectful. But she has now decided to return and be more 'hands on'. Corbyn however was hugging and comforting people personally and showing his feelings more openly from the start.

To me this is interesting, and demonstrates two different attitudes and approaches to demonstrating sympathy. Touchy-feely responses, lighting candles, setting up shrines and so on is quite a new phenomenon. Perhaps the first examples of this were seen after the very sad death of Diana Princess of Wales.

I personally don't know how to behave in sad circumstances nowadays. My instinct is to offer a hug and a shoulder to cry on, but not everyone would welcome that. And when I was growing up, such demonstrative behaviour was much frowned upon. ('Stiff upper lip' and all that)
I don't feel that Theresa May should be criticised for her restraint, as people have different ways of responding. I'm sure she felt immense sorrow and shock, as does everyone watching this horror unfold.