Horrendous tower-block fire in W London

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:54 AM

Nice to see the Queen out and about...
good to see her family taking her out to a community day care centre...

She must think ordinary lower class folks live there lives side by side in line politely waiting for regal gestures of goodwill and understanding...

Even in a catastrophic emegency crisis...

"Ok team, drop everything.. line up side by side.. Liz & Phil are on their way with media and security entourage..
no smirking or bad language..
All you lefty loudmouths and agitators can bugger off outside for a fag break, or nip out to the shops, until the royals have gone home..."

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Very thoughtful post Sen.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:05 AM

I see the police are looking into the possibility of criminal charges against those responsible.

I wouldn't adviseholding your breath. If, as seems likely, the cladding is the essential cause, and the planning regulations in this country mean it's legal to use the combustible kind banned in Germany and the US, I can't see how people could be found guilty, however irreponsible they had been to allow its use. The most guilty people would walk free.

Perhaps it will turn out that some contracted workers will have drilled holes in the wrong place, and they'd be the ones to be surrogate scapegoats.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:34 PM

Protests by angry survivors have already begun
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:52 PM

treeza was just getting grilled on BBC news...

[at last.. they're giving her some of the relentless antagonistic treatment they'd previously targetted at Corbyn...]

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:01 PM

This is a failure of process, an engineering and health and safety issue. The Mail is attributing it to environmental legislation, the Guardian (and Jim) to inequality. Its none of these. Its a complete stuff up which could just as easily have happened in an affluent area as in a deprived area. Now if governments have relaxed building standards regulations, or if management companies and subcontractors have failed to apply these correctly, then lets go after them. But please don't pretend its a class issue, it just isn't.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:23 PM

I think you will find the police are automatically involved because of the horrendous death toll and difficulty of identifying the casualties.
To say it is a criminal investigation without full possession of the facts is premature.Many other areas of expertise will have to be involved to establish what, if, any contraventions have occurred and what will need to be done to prevent a repeat.This will be an essential part of the promised public enquiry.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:26 PM

This kind of cost cutting and failure to put safety as a priority would never have been possible in luxury developments. Even if the authorities have irresponsibly failed in its duties, with the result that unsafe materials are not banned by building regulations, no such development would ever have cut safety standards to that bare legal minimum.

In that sense, this was indeed a class issue.

Kicking all this into the long grass with the kind of public inquiry designed to last for years before reporting is inadequate. Theresa May knows she will be well out of it by the time it reports. And yet she stonewalls every time, and never admits even a shred of resoonsibility. You can't even call it shamefaced, but she never indicates any kind of shame. I wonder what her vicar father would have thought of her.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:43 PM

Yes it would McGrath. Jobsworths do not respect social status. They are just as capable of cutting corners whatever the margins.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:53 PM

m of H. Kicking it in the long grass shows a woeful ignorance of the purpose of a public enquiry.

"Public inquiries investigate issues of serious public concern, scrutinising past decisions and events. It is therefore crucial that information created or used during the course of an inquiry is managed to ensure its survival for future policy makers and researchers.

Without effective information management right from the start a public inquiry will struggle to run efficiently, justify its findings or provide a lasting record.

Public inquiries are conducted on behalf of the Crown, which therefore means that records created or given to the inquiry are public records as defined by the Public Records Act 1958. Those responsible for public records, including the chairman of a public inquiry, have a duty to make arrangements for the selection of those records which ought to be permanently preserved and for their safe-keeping. Under the Inquiry Rules 2006 it is also the responsibility of the chairman to ensure 'the record of the inquiry is comprehensive and well-ordered'.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:59 PM

But they take a long time, which means Theresa May knows that she will be long gone as Prime Minister or Leader of the Tory Party. That's what I mean by long grass.

It would be wrong if action that can be taken now, such as an Inquest, possible criminal charges, and disclosure of relevant information about political and professional breaches of trust, were held up by this public inquiry. I doubt if Theresa May will be able to use it in that way, but I suspect that is what she might be hoping.

Clearly a public inquiry is needed, to sort out the full story, and the changes that are needed.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:56 PM

It seems that the Reynobond product has two types of cores sandwiched between the inside and outside aluminum panels. One is a polyethylene core that is lighter weight. The other one has a simioar exterior but has a heavier fire-retardant mineral core for higher resistance to fire. I suspect that the first option may have been used?



Renoybond 

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 05:25 PM

Well, it costs £2 per square metre. It would have come to nearly £5000 extra for the whole building to have had the safe.

I imagine that countless other agency's that have had the responsibility for social housing contracted out to them up and down the country will have made the same choice.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 06:46 PM

Well, that's only 166 pounds per dead person so far- seems pretty economical to me!

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 07:15 PM

I am afraid when the actual numbers of those killed is known, I am afraid that cost-per-victim will be a great deal lower than that.

I fear that decades of a regime of "efficiency savings" has introduced a mindset that sees minimising costs as the priority, with consideation of safety far behind. A corporate culture in which "health and safety" is seen essentially as a topic for sneers and jokes.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 07:43 PM

Looks like successive governments have been dragging their feet. I can't do links but google this: "Tower block fires: Did government act on advice?" (it's the Beeb). Looking at the list of high-rise fires in the article, I'd say that luxury flats don't figure. So much for the non-class argument.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 07:51 PM

" is managed to ensure its survival for future policy makers and researchers."
LOCKING THE STABLE DOOR SOMEWHAT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:56 AM

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:09 AM

i can't help thinking how grateful we would have been to have been offered one of those flats when we were first married.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

The guilty party is the law (aka regulations), and by association law makers.
And the behaviour of Treeza puts her squarely in the fire of criticism. She is a law maker!

She has a lot on her plate, a busy lady, a target physically, but in the eyes of the public she should have taken the flak from selected residents. There is a security issue but speaking to selected survivors would have ameliorated the ire. Doing it a day later is a cop-out.

The fall-out of this must be a change in the law. And retrospective action. It will cost a lot of money, but failing to act will cost at the ballot box. And what is the price of a life (or 70)? A repeat, however less extreme, will bring down any government IMNSHO.

In a documentary on airplane crashes this concept was so significant:
Safety aspects are like a series of layers, errors are like holes, one error in itself can often be tolerated, and more than one may go un-noticed but when the holes line up - we have a catastrophe.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:56 AM

Maybe she can't help being so lifeless - a cold fish as she's been labelled. But her perstant refusal ever to deal with any question except by using it as a cue for a prefabricated formula soundbite, with not even a token nod in the direction of actually answering the question, is her choice. Most politicians get trained to do that, but not generally to the same obsessive extent.

And what makes her really insufferable in present circumstances is how she never makes even a nod in the direction of acknowledging any responsibility for what has happened, or even any recognition of the possibility that she and others in her circle are being blamed.

She's like some driver who in the aftermath of an accident stonewalls, because the insurance company reqyuires it. In place of the "strong and stable", which increasingly invites ridicule, the shabby John Waynesque formula "Never apologise, never explain" is her mantra.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 10:52 AM

Inquest versus public enquiry. The facts.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/how-theresa-may-could-make-the-grenfell-tower-inquiry-more-credible

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 12:16 PM

Facts, Iains?

In a leftard newspaper like the Guardian? Surely you jest.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 01:49 PM

My paper now says 30 dead, 70+ missing.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:04 PM

we are hearing 58 on the BBC as pretty much confirmed. But not a complete total. I have heard the figure of 70 and find it believable.

There is always the possibility of visitors or undeclared inhabitants that may not have had friends &/or relatives to confirm the story. The police are right to be cagey on numbers.

You can blame T'reezzzza all you like, she is guilty merely by association. She is a lawmaker and the law is the prime culprit. All parties are lawmakers and a succession of political colours have made those laws. The recession of 2007/8 contributed, who should we blame for that?
I have stated it will blacken her name, but it is by her handling of it only.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:26 PM

It's a distinct possibility Mr Red that the Muslim residents had friends/family over as visitors to break the fast, since it's Ramadan.
This would make it much more difficult to ascertain the numbers involved.

I didn't envisage when I started this thread that the usual mud-slinging and political point-scoring would creep in.
To me the subject is so terribly sad and shocking that a little respect and restraint might be in order.

Blame, investigation and action will come later.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:25 PM

If only senoufou !    Seems like left and right here are using this tragedy to paint the opposite leaders in as bad a light as possible .

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 05:45 PM

Well I don't believe that's true. I'm a leftie and I don't do that sort of opportunism. But, Pete, it doesn't mean that the powers that be should be immunised from blame by the application of restraint and common decency. We won't make politics better by letting ham-fisted politicians such as Theresa May off the hook. That's democracy for you. And it's healthy. You wouldn't get away with it in North Korea or Saudi Arabia, would you? If we do see opportunism, it usually sticks out like a sore thumb.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:11 PM

I have no doubt whatever that if there was a Labour government that had been in power from 2010, and which had failed to do anything to implement the reforms that were identified after the smaller but essentially similar tower block fire in 2009, they'd be getting the same reaction.

It seems pretty clear that this catastrophe was very largely caused by the use of materials that have been banned as unsafe in many other countries, including Germany, Frrance, and the USA, but are still used here. That's criminal responsibility, whoever failed to act.

The people who have boasted about slashing regulations, and promise to go further down that road, and who have special scorn for "health and safety" are the Tories, not Labour. As Grenfell Tower blazed we saw what a "bonfire of the regulations" actually looks like.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

M of H. Could you give examples of heath and safety legislation being repealed?. The most important legal act is the European Framework Directive (1989/391/EEC), which establishes general principles for managing safety and health, such as responsibility of the employer, rights/duties of workers, using risk assessments to continuously improve company processes, and workplace health and safety ...
Over time these regulations are subjected to constant review and revision.
I do not believe repeal is part of the agenda. Since 1973 much has been added to the Statute book for Health and Safety, and the regulations are constantly being widened and made more comprehensive. Once a deficiency has been identified and acted upon I do not think any government would have the audacity to roll back legislation. Sins of omission may occur in government but not deliberate increase of risk. I suspect this horrible event is due to the will to reduce the carbon footprint of the building( in line with EU legislation) with the insulating cladding but neglect of a thorough risk assessment and perhaps a deficiency of the building regulations concerning high rise residential buildings. Many EU counties ban gas fired appliances in high rise buildins. Even after the Ronan Point collapse gas is still utilised in uk high rise apartments. The public enquiry will consider these and many other factors in order to reach conclusions.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:06 AM

Key spokespeople Moves to reduce health and safety red tape will be welcomed by British Chambers of Commerce

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 10:41 AM

That link ddn,t work properly. Or rather, the press release I was linking is somewhere in the middle of the site.

Here's a salient quote:
Key spokespeople
Moves to reduce health and safety red tape will be welcomed by business, says BCC
Dr Adam Marshall comments on the reduction of health & safety red tape announced by the government today

10/09/12

Commenting on the government's announcement about the reduction of health and safety inspections, and other forms of business red tape, Dr Adam Marshall, Director of Policy and External Affairs at the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC), said:

"Efforts to reduce the burden of health and safety regulation will be welcome news to many businesses. Ensuring that low-risk workplaces are exempted from inspections is a sensible change that will save employers time and money without reducing the safety of workers. The cost savings to HSE and local authorities of fewer inspections should be reinvested in business support services so that fewer employers are forced to pay for costly consultancy services whose advice often goes beyond what the regulation...

Search for "bonfire of regulations" and you find masses of stuff from Tories going on about how wonderful it is to get rid of piffling regulations, and looking forward to doing more of that.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 11:23 AM

M of H. This would seem to be about reducing inspections and realizing that regulation concerning a business employing thousands requires a more intensive policing regime than say a lone farmer.Ot that a mining enterprise poses more risk than that of market gardening. A large business would employ health and safety experts to reduce risk in the workplace and ensure regulations are complied with. I think you will agree that a one man business cannot often employ safety consultants, desirable though it may be and inspection should be where the risk is deemed the most high.
This would seem a rational deployment of resources in a finite world.
It is obvious that a one size fits all approach is a waste of valuable resources.An entire health and safety industry has come into being over the last quarter century and no sane person would expect to see any part of it rolled back. This is not the inspection regime I am talking about but the extension of business management to encompass risk reduction through the establishment of health and safety departments in order to ensure safety is not sacrificed for expediency, and that thorough risk assessment is carried out prior to any procedure.Previously to some extent this was done by instinct and experience. Today the procedure is both formalized and documented. This is not to establish a blame culture but an attempt to try recognise, codify, and reduce risk. Sadly sometimes the system shows flaws.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 11:54 AM

Interesting aspect of the case here
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 01:21 PM

That merits an easier link, so no one here has an excuse for not reading it.

Two women feared dead in Grenfell Tower were 'threatened with legal action' E

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Monique
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 02:10 PM

Kevin's link

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM

Thanks folks
I always have problems blue clickying The Independent
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 07:43 PM

As did I. Thanks Monique.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 10:36 AM

The Police have now said the number of lives lost is 79 so far.
I just can't imagine the suffering, grief and horror this figure represents.
The pictures being released of the interior of the apartments are appalling. It's obvious no-one trapped inside would have had even a remote chance of coming out alive.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 01:07 PM

"Normal job centre rules, including financial sanctions issued to claimants who miss appointments, have been suspended indefinitely for former residents of Grenfell Tower and other local residents who claim unemploment benefits, it has emerged.

The decision, by the Deparment for Work and Pensions, emerged after representatives of local residents were apparently told that no guarantees could be given that claimants caught up in the fire and its aftermath would not be penalised if they failed to sign on" from The Guardian, 20th June.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 01:25 PM

"I just can't imagine the suffering, grief and horror this figure represents. "
Plenty of visual examples Sen, if you can bear to look at them
The latest twist are reports of families who have been temporarily housed in hotels being moved from pillar to post at the whim of the hotel owners.
The inhumanity seems to know no bounds
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 01:51 PM

The lack of co-ordination and effort to help the poor survivors by Officialdom is disgraceful. If it were not for the general public coming forward to support in many ways (clothing, food, offers of help etc) one wonders whatever would have become of them. I read that one family were housed miles away from the Benefits Office and told to 'get a taxi' to access official forms, payments etc. What world do these blasted people inhabit? Planet Stuffem?

I was heartened to see the wonderful applause, hugs and praise given to some fire-fighters as they passed in front of a crowd of people yesterday. Some of them were so moved they were tearful.
Imagine the enormous risk they took trying to save lives. After a short break that night, lying gasping together on the ground, they staggered to their feet and entered the building again to carry on searching for victims. What they must have seen will surely haunt them forever.
They each deserve a medal and a huge bonus.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:12 PM

You said it all Senofou.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:45 AM

Just heard on the radio that the works were not even signed off. Looks like the owners and the managers are passing the buck between each other.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:11 AM

A block of flats in Camden (NW London) has been found to have the same cladding as that on Grenfell Tower. And several other councils have been asked to send samples from the exterior of their tower blocks for analysis. I expect the wretched stuff is on many buildings.

I can't imagine how those 'responsible' (from omission or commission) can ever sleep at night, knowing that eighty or more people are dead thanks to their evident lack of interest in and despicable attitude towards the poorer members of our society. Not only that (as if that were not enough) but the victims must have died in terrible suffering and terror. How dreadful to have that on one's conscience!

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:22 AM

This needs to be addressed as EU-wide standards, with structural funds set aside for replacement of sub-standard cladding. And UK must pay into this fund for as long as needed even if it leaves EU in 2019.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:57 AM

I also think that the day-to-day management of these communal dwellings should be far tighter and better controlled and monitored. For example, the emergency lighting system wasn't working due to the fact that the batteries had expired (!!), a fact which the residents' committee had tried to bring to the attention of the managers, to no avail. So in the event of the mains power being cut off, the corridors would have been pitch black.

There was much rubbish and unwanted items in the stairwell and corridors, which obstructed egress and presented a combustible danger. This should have been continually addressed.

And (as happens all over big cities where accommodation is at a premium, and is deplorable) unscrupulous tenants were sub-letting their residences at extortionate rates, and in overcrowded and unsuitable conditions. This meant that the actual number of residents was unknown.

I always foolishly imagined that large residential buildings were inspected by a representative of the Fire Service at least annually, and any dangers/shortcomings rectified under enforcement. And that fire drills occurred regularly. If this wasn't the case, then it jolly well should have been.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 10:38 AM

Interesting new approach to fire safety; from this morning's Times
Dan those interfering Unions!
Jim Carroll

UNIONS' ANGER OVER PLANS TO DOWNGRADE SCHOOL SPRINKLERS
Nicola Woolcock

Plans to soften guidance over sprinkler systems at new schools show "a total disregard for the health and safety of children and staff", union leaders told the education secretary yesterday.
The original guidance for schools, published in 2007, said: "All new schools should have fire sprinklers installed except in a few low-risk schools."
The proposed update to the Department for Education's (DfE) Design in Fire Safety in Schools, published last year, stated that "building regulations do not require the installation of fire sprinkler suppression systems in school buildings for life safety. Therefore [guidelines] no longer include an expectation that most new school buildings will be fitted with them."
Leaders of the Fire Brigades' Union (FBU), the National Union of Teachers and the Association of Teachers and Lecturers wrote to Justine Greening seeking "urgent reassurances" about draft rules which, they said, would lead to fewer sprinklers. They expressed alarm that the "expectation" that sprinklers should be fitted in new schools in England had been removed.
The unions said the government proposals also compromised safety by changing rules on how buildings were compartmentalised to contain fire. The government insisted, however, that the guidance clarified existing wording and that the same standards would apply.
Matt Wrack, general secretary of the FBU, said: "It is staggering we still have to have this debate in the current circumstances. It highlights the endless problems we have faced when raising fire safety issues over several years." Kensington Aldridge Academy, the school that opened in 2014 beside Grenfell Tower, is not fitted with sprinklers. Nor were there sprinklers in the 1970s block, which housed around 600 people and recently had an £8.6 million refurbishment in which combustible cladding and insulation was fitted.
Since the fire, which claimed at least 79 lives, local authorities have been examining their housing stock. Thou-sands of buildings, including hospitals, leisure centres and offices, have been fitted with cladding in the past 30 years.
Fire safety assessors said they were inundated with requests for inspections from councils, one of which, in Croydon, south London, has said it will fit its high-rise blocks with sprinklers.
The government faces pressure to announce who will lead the public inquiry into the fire promised by Theresa May. Sadiq Khan, the London mayor, wrote to Mrs May urging transparency in the process, including "timescales involved and likely milestones". Blaze survivors and the families of those killed should be instrumental in draw¬ing up the scope of the inquiry and be granted "core participant" status, giving them access to evidence and letting them suggest lines of inquiry, he said.
John Healy, Labour's housing spokesman, called for the release of correspondence on fire regulations between four ministers and the all party parliamentary fire safety and rescue group after a high-rise fire in 2009.
In one exchange reported by the BBC, Stephen Williams, a former Liberal Democrat minister, told the group: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these potential changes is urgent."
The group replied: "We're at a loss to understand how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence which had life safety implications, was NOT considered urgent."
The dispute over advice on sprinklers in new schools also raises concerns about an apparent clash between regulations and the drive to "cut red tape".
Figures earlier this year showed that there were more than 700 fires at schools in London between 2009 and early 2017, but that sprinklers were installed in only 15 cases.
The DfE said: "There will be no change to the fire safety laws for schools or our determination to protect children's safety. It has always been the case that where the risk assessment required for any new building recommends sprinklers are installed to keep children safe, they must be fitted."

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:26 AM

If nothing else (and it's almost impossible to find any good in the events of the past week) authorities are now examining their public buildings of all types with regard to fire precautions and defences.

We had a bad fire at the school where I taught for many years, an old Victorian building only two storeys high. It started in a ground-floor cloakroom, where a child had been playing with matches. Everyone was safely evacuated, but the speed at which it took hold was terrifying. And afterwards, I went back into what was left of the cloakroom to see a small black puddle underneath every metal coat peg. These were all that was left of the melted nylon/artificial fibre coats and bags. The dangerous smoke fumes had blackened the entire area in thick soot. Luckily, this building was fairly isolated on the complex and the fire was contained and put out rapidly.

I started another thread a few months ago about our neighbours' house which went up like a torch and burned almost completely away, while the oil tank exploded like a bomb. It was during the day and luckily they got out unharmed, despite the thick smoke and intense heat. We could only watch in horror as the Fire Brigade struggled to deal with it.

These examples show just how dangerous a fire can be. And no Authority can defend shoddy badly-designed buildings/dwellings for the sake of cost-cutting, or lack of interest in poor, ethnic-minority unemployed folk, who (as we have seen) burn to death the same as anyone else.

Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

A great shame a sprinkler system hadn't been fiited in that school.
.............

An EU wide approach to fire safety as SPB suggested would make sense. There may even be some other countries as bad as the UK in this respect.