BS: Have the times a'changed that much?

Subject: BS: Have the times a-chaged that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:06 PM

I was amazed to discover that Dylan's 'Times they are a-changin' is 53 years old! A lot of water under the bridge. Things have obviously progressed a lot since the early sixties. Medical and scientific advances have made our lives longer and easier but we are still wasting the planets resources. We have the sum of the worlds knowledge literally in the palm of our hands every time we use our mobiles to go on the internet. But what do we do with it? Look at pictures of kittens being cute. And bearing in mind the song had a primarily political message have we really progressed there?

I presume that Donald Trump and Theresa May were young when the song came out. Did it have no effect on them? Have they become the ones that stand in the doorway and block up the halls? I don't think that battle outside has really shaken their windows and rattled their walls. Did Bob have any effect on today's politics? Would it have been worse without him? Or better?

Just thinking aloud...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:07 PM

..or even 'a-changed'

(Mods, please? :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:33 PM

I always thought the song was way too divisive. There are decent people in every generation and there are arseholes in every generation. Since that song was written we've ended segregation in the US, gone a long way towards enlightenment when it comes to homosexuality and abortion, expanded education, drastically reduced the numbers of people living under dictatorships (no thanks to US foreign policy), got rid of the Berlin Wall and had the liberating phenomenon of punk. There's a long way to go. I won't bother listing the downsides. I don't really think Dylan changed anything, whatever his fans think.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:44 PM

Did he really sing 'prophesise'? Surely it's 'prophesy'?

I always felt the song was defiant and dismissive, a sort of thumbing the nose at the establishment, without suggesting anything constructive. A bit 'teenagery' in fact.

I'm sure we have indeed come a long way since those days. Women's liberation and feminism, acceptance and decriminalisation of homosexuality, contraception, reduction of racism for example.
As Steve says, there are other things to address, but there always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:05 PM

Since that song was written we've ended segregation in the US

Uh, not quite, Steve.

But things sure have changed. A President Drumph would have been inconceivable in 1965.

Or, as Tom Paxton put it in an interview in March of this year:

"I guess I'll be writing a little more politically now with this asshole in the White House."

"It's not the last year that worries me, it's the next four … It's really hard to overstate how bad I think this man Trump is. I mean I thought Nixon was bad but he was nothing, nothing, compared to this man … [Trump] has no shame and every word out of the man's mouth is a lie. It's just the way it is."

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:16 PM

OK, Greg. I think I meant institutionalised segregation.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:26 PM

A Hard Rains a Gonna Fall is more of a predictive song. Dylan is not a prophetic writer. There are people who are but they are bound ineffective by a Cassandra effect. There is room opening up to encompass these people lately. Speaking from the future irks the hell out of some people.
As for Trump it is best to head him off at the future than the 'Pass'. Instead of being even more esoteric in this brief post I will end it before I begin to prophesize again, like I did when I said Trump would win.

In the year 2424...

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:01 PM

Almost the whole of Islam and around half the population of the US believes that evolution is an evil, false doctrine and that creationism reigns supreme. We have a long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

In the last fifty years, so-called democracies have elected Reagan, Thatcher, Dubya and Trump. We have a long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:51 PM

Wikipedia on Islam and Evolution:

As per a 2008 report, Evolutionary biology was included in the high-school curricula of most Muslim countries. Science foundations of 14 Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, and Egypt, recently signed a statement by the Interacademy Panel (IAP, a global network of science academies), in support of the teaching of evolution, including human evolution.[41]

In 2014, when the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant captured the Iraqi city of Mosul, the group issued a new set of rules for the schools there, which included a ban on the teaching of evolution.[45]

A 2009 survey conducted by the McGill researchers and their international collaborators found that 85% of Indonesian high school students and 86% of Pakistani high school students agreed with the statement, "Millions of fossils show that life has existed for billions of years and changed over time."[1]

According to a more recent Pew study these numbers appear to increase slowly but steadily. For instance, a relatively large fraction of people accept human evolution in Kazakhstan (79%) and Lebanon (78%), but relatively few in Afghanistan (26%) and Iraq (27%), with most of the other Islamic countries somewhere in between.[2]

Rana Dajani, a university professor who teaches evolution in Jordan, wrote that almost all of her students are hostile to the idea of evolution, at the beginning of the class, but by the end of the class, the majority accept the idea.[46]

In 2017, Turkey announced plans to end the teaching evolution before the university level, with education Alpaslan Durmuş claiming it is too complicated and "controversial" a topic to be understood by young minds.[47]

I think that the whole thing is a mess for both Christians and Muslims who reject the fossil record.

What's been going through my mind for the last week is "...And the world's wise men will remind you once again/That the whole wide world is watching."

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:01 PM

With all his women problems maybe tangled up in blue

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:18 PM

OK, Greg. I think I meant institutionalised segregation.

Well, Trump's old man and Trump himself owned and ran segregated housing units.

I'd call that pretty institutionalized.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:40 PM

If ever there was a time for Tom Lehrer to come out of retirement, this would be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'chaged that much?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 10:51 PM

By the exact words in the Army Field Manual regarding the loss of the capacity of leadership in an officer, Trump fails the fitness test.

core capacity checklist;

1 trust
2 discipline & self control
3 judgement & critical thinking
4 self awareness
5 empathy

These 100 year old factors are more important than the dozens of dire diagnoses by hundreds of today's Psychiatrists.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 11:19 PM

I was kicked out of NYS 7th grade until there was a parental meeting with the school because of my essay on evolution. It was deemed offensive and false because I wrote "Man and other mammals...".

There is no way to know but I can see this still happening in Texas , Kentucky, Indiana etc.

This just in - "We are living in willfully ignorant and barbaric times"
'Old News Network'

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:28 AM

Not a lot to disagree with really and Eliza's teenager comment set me thinking again. The point I was making about Trump and May, and any other world leaders if it comes to that but maybe Dylan was better known in the US and UK? Anyhow, today's world leaders were either teenagers or younger in 1964 and those older may still have been the angry young men and women of the 1960s. Surely Dylan, and any other popular singer if it comes to that, was a defining influence on their adulthood. Whether consciously or not, influences from your youth do affect the way you think and act today. So Maybe Dylan did affect world politics in more mysterious ways than we think :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM

In the sixties, I was much more struck by the song 'Blowin' In The Wind'. It wasn't defiant or rebellious, more sad and reflective.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:49 AM

Somebody once asked Ghandi what he thought about Western civilisation - is response - "I think it would be a good idea."
Still being thought about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:08 AM

But did you ever find out how many roads a man did have to walk down, Eliza?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:41 AM

Sadly not my friend, cos the answer was always blowin' in the wind...

Seriously though, the line 'How many deaths will it take 'til they know, that too many people have died?...' makes me think of the Grenfell Tower tragedy. It took all those deaths for the authorities to take action finally and investigate fire safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:37 AM

The ants are my friends...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:54 AM

How many times have I posted the lyrics of this song on one of the threads of this forum.? Brexit, Trump, Tories, UKIP, the rise of the right etc etc. All voted for by selfish old white folk who have fucked the future up for the young, and continue to do so.

Times aren't a-changing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:19 AM

Did Bob have any effect on today's politics? Would it have been worse without him? Or better?

Worse without him. He started something, if it has little relevance today, it is because those taking up the banner haven't caught the mood of the time.

I give you Billy Bragg - committed and ready to tell it the way he sees it. But does he do it with song? Not like Dylan fer sure.
Does he do it in song or harangue the audience. Tick one of the above. So not him then. Then who?

Times are a-changing, it depends where you look. Try Farcebook/Fakebook etc. That's where the shakers & movers go, and they are winning, and it ain't the ones you expected!
Of course you could think it was the same old same - but if you thought that why weren't you alive to their modern tricks?

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:20 AM

Here is the thing though, Stu. Those old folk you are on about were young when the song was written. So, either the times they have a-changed or, as Steve said earlier, there are arseholes in every generation.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 09:33 AM

there are arseholes in every generation.

Ah, but they're a growth industry today. I give you Drumph & Co.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:08 AM

They might have been young, but they're no less privileged white old folk who've not changed the world for the better, and are still making it worse.

The rise of nationalism, the politics of division, the gross inequality that pervades our societies, climate change, the application of capitalist principles to healthcare and education, the decline of multiculturalism etc etc are all at least partly the result of privileged white folk pursuing their own self-interest with staggeringly myopic ignorance.

There is hope, but not with the older generations. Get out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:21 AM

Well, sorry we disagree, Stu. I find that a very ageist attitude. I cannot help being born all those years ago and to say that all the worlds ills are the fault of my generation is stereotyping at its worst. I agree that the hope is with the generations to come but it has always been thus and they don't seem to be doing much about it at the moment. At least my generation had Bob to whinge about it for us :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:47 AM

Well, my statement is a sweeping generalisation and not targeted at an individual but an attitude, which is expresses predominately by older white people.


As for ageism, old men hankering for the days of empire when we stuck the boot into anyone that dared resist our 'civilising' influence have done untold damage in the last few years. They won't be the ones paying for it though, more's the pity. That's not to say the youth don't have themselves partly to blame for letting themselves be dominated at the ballot box by the older voter.

Anyway, age isn't what it used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:54 AM

...neither is nostalgia :-)

Pick your targets better, Stu. It is not older white people that run the world. We are as much in thrall to the power people and money men as anyone else. The shady group that owns most of the worlds wealth and controls governments is where you should be aiming your shots, not firing the scatter gun at anyone who happens to be of similar age and ethnicity.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 11:56 AM

My generation was responsible for the liberation of women. Germaine Greer et al. We grabbed the opportunity to grab higher education and a professional career, equal pay, sexual freedom with the Pill and eventually equal rights. Before those days, the Little Woman In The Home was universal.

The very idea of Colonialism was anathema to us. We wanted to travel the world (I certainly did) and understand other cultures, not dominate them.

CND, Aldermaston and Ban The Bomb etc all began in those days.

Many scientific and medical advances were made in the Sixties.

We were a very talented, pro-active and well-meaning generation thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 12:27 PM

Uh oh. I've upset the crusties. Apologies.

"We were a very talented, pro-active and well-meaning generation thank you very much."

Never said some of you weren't, all generations have their good and bad eggs. You also had the benefits of free HE, plentiful social housing, unions etc etc. That has all been pissed into the wind, even the NHS is now about be ground under the boot of the establishment.

There are plenty of us who do our bit, be assured.

"It is not older white people that run the world."

Tell that to Trump, Merkel, May and the others of the Bohemian Grove and Bilderberg. Mind you, they'd be chuffed to hear you say that.

I'm not fingering the older generation for all the ills of the world, but it's been in your care and is in a perilous state. All I'm saying is Bob was right when he talked about the older generation, get out of the way if you can't lend a hand. And stop voting for right wing twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 01:00 PM

Oi! I'm NOT a Crusty you cheeky thing! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 01:05 PM

It's the steenkin' media, stupid. Self self self, Thatcher was right society died in the sixties. We all became greedy and selfish, we forgot what society meant and the rules which govern it; life became all about personal satisfaction. The young people of today have become addicted to self, dumb, shallow and irresponsible, full of empathy for any cause championed by the media, no matter how dangerous or counter productive the results may be.

A huge dose of reality is required if anything is to be really changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM

Sorry Sen, couldn't resist!

"young people of today have become addicted to self, dumb, shallow and irresponsible."

And with that, I'm leaving the thread before the others turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 02:30 PM

Sorry in advance if Stu get upset by my comments but if he feels strongly about the mess he sees around him - change it.

As an analogous story might I point to a TV programme on the community channel. It concerned a town I knew well, once. Walsall. They went around the sad locations and talked to the residents who were hanging around complaining about the rubbish dumped along alleyways and micro lawns that never got cut.

What struck me was the resignation that these layabouts showed. Who is going to carry a washing machine more than 100 yards to throw it away? Those littering were their neighbours - but never them!
The next thought I had was why didn't they organise a clear-up. The cleaner the place the less the dumping. Idle hands and all that.

& then I recalled our solutions. We had rag and bone men collecting a lot of stuff we did not need. & We had Billy Muggins who took our stuff and repaired it (ish) and sold it back to us. He acted the simpleton but left £350,000 when he died (in the 60s).

And then I remembered the "Tip" - a rubbish area that the community had default designated as a dump - OK we did it then, amidst the foundry sand already there, but not in the alleyways, nor in the street with empty houses. That land is a green space now!

It's your community - be part of its better side. Complaining doesn't achieve anything. Inspire people or get off yer bloody arse. PAL!

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 02:58 PM

That's a very good example Mr Red.

In our village, the older folk were getting too frail to continue the sterling work they've done for years organising events and keeping the village hall going etc. The younger ones started to moan that there was 'nothing for their children to do', and 'the community was dead'.

Now, we've got a super new young woman who's motivated other mums and dads, and the fundraising has been excellent. She organised a huge event last weekend which brought in several thousand pounds, and the village is rejuvenated.
But it was nice to see lots of us oldies there, serving at the stalls and helping still in many ways. She simply stepped in and got things done.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:28 PM

Journalism and empathy and selfishness are the real enemies of the World ?

One out of three is bad, but still is an improvement for you Ake.

Stu, like it or not you are one of the others. Only the POV changes but we are all 'others' one another brothers. I think you run and hide too much. One day you will have to speak up. :^/

In a battle of wits, Merkle has met her match with Trump. Donald is a highly educated cruel reality show host who knows how to insult without a handshake. Merkle only has a doctorate in Quantum physics and speaks Russian better than Putin. Watch Trump wing it at the Summit, praise Putin, recall his 2016 election and drone on about WWII horrors to Europeans from the movies he has seen.
What can poor Merkle do?

I think she knows what to do, but will she?

Release the dogs of video tape!

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:40 PM

And stop voting for right wing twats.

I'll have you know I have never voted for a right wing twat in my life! Mind you, I have voted for a few left wing ones :-) To put the boot on the other foot here, look what happened at the last election when younger people were motivated to vote. We nearly did it! Instead of whinging on about older people voting for the same old thing, how about motivating young people to vote instead? Become an activist in mobilising the under 30 vote instead of a whiner about the over 60 one!

Ake, you don't have a clue about cause and effect do you.

Thatcher was right society died in the sixties. We all became greedy and selfish

It was Thatcher and her administration that caused society to die. It was a self fulfilling prophesy. The age of the Yuppie. Anything goes as long as you make money. I'm alright Jack. And you pretend to be a socialist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:45 PM

"It's your community - be part of its better side. Complaining doesn't achieve anything. Inspire people or get off yer bloody arse. PAL!"

Nice. Alpha male bullshit.

The only way forward for many communities is the people making the place better themselves, and the town I live in has been transformed culturally and economically in recent years due to the action and determination of a number of it's citizens. I've been an active part of this (as you'd know if you knew me), and will continue to do so as long as I have my health. It's a wonderful thing seeing a community rediscover itself and realise it has massive potential, and it's made our town an interesting place to live. Here's a shock, many of those folk are YOUNG and engaged with local issues and politics. Yay!

There are plenty of lazy gits in every community, plenty of complainers and moaners whose sense of entitlement is worn with pride like a medal. We get the naysayers a lot, but ignore them. As Bob said, if you can't lend a hand, get out of the way. He was right, was Bob, your sons and daughters are beyond your command.

That your generation condemned them to breathe flithy air in a warming, littered world whilst the farce of Brexit condemns them to living in a country that has less taken back control,and more become the lickspittles of demagogues, dictators and dilettantes. My generation is fucking it up too for sure, but I think the tide has turned with the younger folk (see last election) who understand compassion and community matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:54 PM

but I think the tide has turned with the younger folk

I think we have come full circle. Are you by any chance saying the times they are a-changin'? :-) I am sure someone said that 53 years ago and it never really happened. I do hope you are right this time though!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:56 PM

BTW Stu - I am not really arguing against you. Just pointing out the folly of divisiveness. The young should not be fighting the old or vice versa. We should join against the common enemy of rampant capitalism.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:02 PM

" I think you run and hide too much. One day you will have to speak up."

Y'see, this is the sort of assumption that is utterly ridiculous as you have zero idea of who I am.

I speak up more than most, holding my MP to account by writing letters, attending and participating in hustings, town meetings, public consultations with the LA and developers, attending local authority committees, leafleting houses, leafleting in town, offering my professional services to local organisations and events for free or at very substantial discount (to cover costs), doing science outreach within my community, public speaking when I get persuaded (I hate doing it though). I engage with our town council and know several of the councillors personally, and cajole, hassle, praise and probably irritate the bejesus out of them in matters concerning the common good.

So I run and hide? Bullshit.

" Instead of whinging on about older people voting for the same old thing, how about motivating young people to vote instead?"

You'd have been proud of our young folk DtG. A brilliant guerrilla campaign against the incumbent nasty tory placeman that saw posters appear around town and plenty of youngsters campaigning for the young Labour candidate who eventually halved the tory majority. I'm actually apolitical so didn't get involved in the campaign, but he's a great bloke, community minded and I voted for him. Next time we might just unseat the tory clone and send him packing. Huzzah!

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:24 PM

"It was Thatcher and her administration that caused society to die."

Aw aye! and didn't the Labour voting faithful just jump at the bait?
Thatcher had an excuse as a lifelong Tory....Blair who continued her policies had none.
I know dozens of Labour voters who ditched their principles to take out loans and mortgages they could hardly afford to buy their council houses......fucking hypocrites.
Don't you realise that most of the public are Tories if they are given the chance.....it will take generations to change that.
Socialism will come about through necessity and it will not be much fun. It will always be attacked by financial aspiration. It will require enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:36 PM

Better polish my Jack Boots then.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:42 PM

I know dozens of Labour voters who ditched their principles to take out loans and mortgages they could hardly afford to buy their council houses......fucking hypocrites.

So, there we have it. Labour voters are not allowed to own property. Presumably the next step is that those who do not own property cannot vote. Good socialist principles there ake.

You'd have been proud of our young folk DtG.

I am, Stu. I have a son and a daughter in law who are very active in both the Labour party and Momentum. They worked their fingers to the bone during the election campaign and I don't think they had a night or weekend off from when it was announced to when the votes were counted. They are still at it but a bit slower now. And these are the people that us old crusties brought into this world and brought up to be caring and thoughtful people. Oh, and they are both homeowners ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 06:17 PM

Trump has already out golfed Dwight Eisenhower in terms of frequency.
(3 times a week is a change)

50 years ago it would be anathema to admit you are a Nazi.
Not anymore.
Time are changing again.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM

Nice. Alpha male bullshit. from a talker, not a doer - QED

that town that was transformed, were you a part of the action or just verbal support? Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 06:47 AM

If they own homes which should be inhabited by those who cannot afford to buy, or who don't think "social housing" should be treated as a commodity, they do not have one shred of "socialist principle" or could be accurately described as "caring or thoughtful".

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 07:28 AM

"Don't you realise that most of the public are Tories if they are given the chance....."
Didn't one of the campaigners admit that many are but are ashamed to say so "vote Tory in the privacy of the ballot box"

But how can you blame someone who is seeing the common wealth given away to take their slice of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 07:30 AM

Why should their homes "be inhabited by those who cannot afford to buy"? Surely the socialist ideal is that those who cannot afford to buy are provided with social housing. Why should the homes paid for by people who can afford it be taken of them? Where would they then go when their houses are taken off them? You talk the kind of shite that gave communism a bad name 50 years ago.

As to "they do not have one shred of "socialist principle" or could be accurately described as "caring or thoughtful". " How dare you suggest that my children are anything other than the good human beings they are. It is little wonder that many of your posts are deleted and threads you are involved with are closed down. You sicken me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 07:50 AM

"that town that was transformed, were you a part of the action or just verbal support? Just saying."

Did you read my post? Damn right a doer. If I had more time I'd do more too (doing some right now... er, but typing this in mid flow). I don't lessons from some faceless old scrote heckling from the sidelines. Poor old sod.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:50 AM

If they take part in the purchase of "social housing" then they go against the ethics of socialism, and they are certainly not "thoughtful" or "caring".   The housing market is a capitalist con and every social house sold into the private sector reduces the chance of people in real need from acquiring homes.

The right to buy scheme was a capitalist masterstroke, showing would- be socialists in their true colours.
We need to understand that we cannot have it both ways, real socialism will be hard and we should not be able to buy our way out.
This society is unready for such a system, though its introduction will be inevitable...There is a huge difference between the "want it all liberalism" which afflicts us today and a real socialist economic and social system.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:56 AM

If they take part in the purchase of "social housing"

Who said anything about them buying social housing? They did not. Are you going to retract your odious aspersions about my children or shall we just let it stand to show what sort of obnoxious character you really are?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM

My posts are accurate and I withdraw nothing. My original post dealt with the subject of council house sales, then you jumped in saying your children were .."house owners"...Why? I have nothing against people buying homes on the open market, that is their affair.

You did it because you are a devious passive/aggressive troll, who cannot derive any satisfaction from a straight forward discussion.
You have just been exposed again for what must be becoming obvious to all members who engage with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Have the times a'changed that much?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 02:28 PM

I thought that may be the case, ake. Let us look at the facts.

This is what you say at 11:50 AM.

I have nothing against people buying homes on the open market, that is their affair.

Yet this is what you said earlier, at 06:47 AM, about 2 of my close family members.

If they own homes which should be inhabited by those who cannot afford to buy, or who don't think "social housing" should be treated as a commodity, they do not have one shred of "socialist principle" or could be accurately described as "caring or thoughtful".

You are a deceitful character who thinks nothing of besmirching the families of those you perceive to be against you. You are also stupid enough to think that no one can see it when it is blatantly obvious that even the moderation team are on to you. Just how many posts have you had deleted and how many threads have been closed because of you? How many times have you been suspended?

You are a blight on this forum and why you are allowed to continue is beyond me. But please feel free to continue digging your own grave.

DtG