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BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support

GeoffLawes 09 Jul 17 - 04:44 AM
Acme 09 Jul 17 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 12:09 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 17 - 02:21 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 17 - 02:33 PM
GeoffLawes 09 Jul 17 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 17 - 03:16 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 17 - 03:50 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 03:55 PM
Teribus 09 Jul 17 - 04:02 PM
Iains 09 Jul 17 - 04:20 PM
Iains 09 Jul 17 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM
Teribus 09 Jul 17 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 05:59 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 17 - 07:51 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 08:07 PM
robomatic 09 Jul 17 - 08:12 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 03:09 AM
Teribus 10 Jul 17 - 03:26 AM
Raggytash 10 Jul 17 - 03:44 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 04:03 AM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 17 - 04:49 AM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 17 - 01:05 PM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 01:36 PM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
robomatic 10 Jul 17 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 03:29 PM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 04:56 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 05:13 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 07:29 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 07:44 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 17 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 05:39 AM
Iains 11 Jul 17 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM
Iains 11 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 09:29 AM
robomatic 12 Jul 17 - 10:40 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 12:56 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 17 - 04:17 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 AM
Jeri 13 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM
Vashta Nerada 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 04:43 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM
Jeri 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 05:31 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 06:53 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 12:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 05:57 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 08:50 AM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 08:52 AM
Raggytash 14 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 10:18 AM
Jeri 14 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:11 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 04:13 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 04:37 PM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jul 17 - 06:24 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 07:00 PM
Raggytash 14 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 07:54 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 09:18 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM
akenaton 15 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 04:38 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 10:00 AM
bobad 15 Jul 17 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 11:08 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 12:16 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 12:26 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 03:18 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 03:48 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 03:51 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 04:33 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 05:22 PM
akenaton 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 06:12 PM
bobad 15 Jul 17 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 06:31 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 06:38 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 06:46 PM
Jeri 15 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:02 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM
robomatic 15 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:41 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 08:10 PM
bobad 15 Jul 17 - 08:26 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 08:33 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 08:56 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 09:32 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 09:50 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 10:16 PM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 17 - 01:32 AM
robomatic 16 Jul 17 - 01:51 AM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 17 - 03:08 AM
akenaton 16 Jul 17 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 03:34 AM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 03:50 AM
David Carter (UK) 16 Jul 17 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 04:44 AM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 17 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 05:18 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 17 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM
sapper82 16 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 17 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 08:29 AM
Greg F. 16 Jul 17 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 09:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jul 17 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 12:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM
Greg F. 16 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 01:08 PM
Greg F. 16 Jul 17 - 01:12 PM
GeoffLawes 16 Jul 17 - 01:19 PM
Greg F. 16 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM
robomatic 16 Jul 17 - 02:02 PM
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bobad 16 Jul 17 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 17 - 03:04 PM
robomatic 16 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM
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Steve Shaw 16 Jul 17 - 05:43 PM
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Greg F. 16 Jul 17 - 06:07 PM
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punkfolkrocker 16 Jul 17 - 06:37 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 17 - 06:44 PM
bobad 16 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM
robomatic 16 Jul 17 - 07:23 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 17 - 07:47 PM
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Joe Offer 21 Jul 17 - 04:40 AM
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Subject: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 04:44 AM

Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Acme
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 11:40 AM

That this House recalls the most valiant effort made eighty years ago by the volunteers of the International Brigades at the Battle of Brunete, during the Spanish Civil War, in July 1937; records its gratitude to all those who fought, including over 330 members of the British Battalion, and to those who were killed or wounded; recognises their inspirational example as pioneer combatants against the forces of fascism; and pledges that it will draw from their sacrifice in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 12:09 PM

I'll do it, Geoff. However, my MP is a Tory and they don't seem to be signing up in droves.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:21 PM

Again nothing is as simple as you ideologues believe.

Celebration of this old mess proves nothing and certainly does not aid the present day unity we require George Orwell's war


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:33 PM

Owrwell was reputed to have spent much of his time in bars
Beside the point anyway
Spain could have ben the turning point in stopping your lot from trying to over-run Europe
How dare people like you describe remembering them as "divisive" unless of course, you are suggesing remembering all wars are "divisive" - which I'm sure you're not
Raggy has made the point and you choose to ignore him, just as you will mine
"Too bust" no doubt, but not to busy to insult anti-Fascist heroes
Priorities, I suppose
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:34 PM

Hello Steve Shaw and others with Conservative MPs : you could perhaps remind your MP that former Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath was a supporter of the Spanish Republic against Franco and the fascists
http://spartacus-educational.com/PRheathE.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/jul/18/guardianobituaries.conservatives
And akenaton, the motion's desire "to draw from their sacrifice in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism" is ,alas, still very relevant,IMHO


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:16 PM

Of course I am suggesting all wars are divisive, but this one was also a pointless mess, as ever the left ended up killing each other over ideology.

As I have said many times, a fair society can only be achieved by unity and evolution, whatever system we end with will not have been chosen, but will have evolved through necessity.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:50 PM

Excuse me Mr Lawes but this thread is being censored.
I attempted to explain my position on this and as a long term member of the Communist Party I have no antipathy to the International Brigades.....I simply see this old conflict as a dreadful waste of life and ideals.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:55 PM

Geoff has a very long-standing thread in tbe music section in which he collects songs in English about the Spanish Civil War. I've contributed to that thread and, though I don't know Geoff personally, I'm guessing that he didn't post this in order to stoke a controversy on this forum. Just get your MP to sign the petition if you're minded to. Otherwise, show a bit of respect and just cool it, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 04:02 PM

For those interested in history those who wandered off to fight in Spain did absolutely nothing to defeat fascism. The fight against fascism began in 1938 when the reality that people like Churchill had been warning off as early as the mid-1930s was realised.

Chamberlain, the Prime Minister who Jom reckons no-one dare mention bought the time to allow the preparation that meant Britain was in some sort of shape to take on and defeat fascism in Germany and in Italy. Whether Spain and Portugal were fascist or not did not matter a jot - neither had any great ambition post war they were no different from any number of states.

If anyone doubts the above then address the points made NOT the person delivering the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 04:20 PM

Sixteen MP's supporting the motion so far, but no conservatives. I think the motion would have attracted far more support had the communist party not had such a high profile during the entire operation.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/28/mi5-spanish-civil-war-britain
       This same time period covered Stalin's great purge. Had this knowledge been public at the time, I suspect recruitment to the International Brigade would have tumbled.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:00 PM

One aspect of this motion that I cannot get my head around is the wording "That this House recalls the most valiant effort made eighty years ago by the volunteers of the International Brigades at the Battle of Brunete, during the Spanish Civil War, in July 1937; records its gratitude to all those who fought, including over 330 members of the British Battalion, and to those who were killed or wounded; recognises their inspirational example as pioneer combatants against the forces of fascism; and pledges that it will draw from their sacrifice in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and TOTALITARIANISM.
Yet ""The Communist party of Great Britain took responsibility for organising the recruitment of volunteers in Britain, and leading communists held positions as officers and "political commissars" with the British battalion in Spain."
Now correct me if I am wrong but was not Stalin's Communist Soviet Union a shining example of a totalitarian regime?

Somewhere the logic of all this shows a serious breakdown. Perhaps someone can enlighten me!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain

There is an interesting quote from the link:- From 1939 until 1941 the CPGB was very active in supporting strikes and in denouncing the government for its pursuit of the war. B. Farnborough says, "During the entire period up to the fall of France the British Communist Party functioned as a propaganda agency for Hitler.
I have no strong thoughts either way about those who volunteered. It was their choice. However I cannot see how I could support the motion
for the reasons above.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

If you agree, just lobby your MP. You have every right to start a civil war thread if you're so minded.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:37 PM

By the way can anyone explain why House of Commons time is being wasted on this? Haven't they got more important things to be getting on with?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:59 PM

It's called democracy. If you don't like it, start a civil war thread. I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers. This thread is a gentle suggestion from a man of great integrity that you might wish to consider lobbying your MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 07:51 PM

".I simply see this old conflict as a dreadful waste of life and ideals."
You have been asked to confirm that you hold the same belief about all all conflicts that are commemorated - your silence is an indication that this is not the case - no surprise there
This gathering of vicious vultures is reason in itself that the brave men who went out to stop fascism should not be forgotten
Wadda team eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 08:07 PM

The sentiment of this thread is a very positive one, Jim. It's sad, though entirely predictable, that right-wing naysayers such as Iains and Teribus have swanned in to cast aspersions on the brave - ok, idealistic - people who saw the deadly danger of fascism long before the politicians did. Geoff asked for a positive response to his request and I dearly hope that I'm not only one to respond positively.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 08:12 PM

"Mary McGregor!"


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:09 AM

"Iains and Teribus"
Not forgetting our tame homophobe and Anders Breivik admirer, Ake the Dogman.
These guys are what they are.
A few thousand poor people are burned out of their home by a horrific fire - they seep in the local park before they are given refuge in empty property
Soldiers who are sent off to die in the trenches become "liars" if their experiences contradict the official version.   
If refugees from wars we have helped to start are forced to wear 'yellow stars' in order to be fed, they are guests of our nation so they grin and bear it.
If one of our Royal ponces visits "Herr Hitler" and gives the Nazi salute, he's only "waving at the crowd"
A set pattern for the line of thought my old man went to Spain to fight against
These people are handy to have around as examples of what could have been and which might still be if brave people don't stand up to them.
Luckily, you can count them on one hand - how long did the BNP, or the NF or Ukip last as a national threat - they are light relief; lay back and enjoy them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:26 AM

They become liars Jom when they claim they have "seen" something that they patently haven't by the story they tell and accuse people of murder knowing that they are no longer around to defend themselves - to-date there has not been one single example of any summary execution of a British soldier. None of these "old soldiers" can give a name of people they refer to as "best friends" (Do you know the names of your childhood best friends Jom? Or can you not recall them? - Did you have any best friends as a child Jom?). People remember traumatic incidents and I am bloody certain that I would remember vividly if one of my "best friends" got shot down in cold blood right before my eyes I'd remember every single detail of it, including who had shot him if he was someone I had been serving under for months, someone I had had to report to in the course of my everyday duties.

On the salute thing Jom? Have you ever saluted? Any idea of the protocols for it? One of them is you never salute if you are not wearing a hat or cap. Who was he saluting for a start and why are none of the people standing round him saluting?


Nazis "saluting" or just people waving

Apart from denouncing the seizure of private property and pointing out that to do so would take too long I do not believe I commented on the Grenfell Tower thread.

Who was made to "Wear Yellow Stars" Jom? And where and when did Iains or myself comment on it?

Are lies and misrepresentations really all you can come up with? You sad "little" man - and I really do mean "little" in every respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:44 AM

Spot the difference


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:03 AM

Anyway, I'm writing to my MP right now. That was the gentle request made at the start of the thread. If you disagree, don't write. Just don't let this particular thread epitomise everything that's wrong with this forum below the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:25 AM

Jim the fact your father is claimed to have fought in Spain does not give you the right to insist everyone should share your views on the subject and pour abuse on those that do not. I have already stated I hold no strong views either way on those who went. The most I would state is that perhaps some were misguided.
But of course you have to respond with your usual vitriol because you cannot handle the fact others may reach conclusions different to yours. By now you should have realised your extreme position in many discussions gains few, if any, supporters.
Claiming I have any kind of association with Anders Breivik is typical of your cheap poorly considered made up shit. You really are a total disgrace. You are like a typical playground bully. Attack the person because attacking the argument requires profound thought that you clearly are not capable of.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:28 AM

"They become liars" when their experiences dont fit the account of morons like "Wrong Shell Kitchener" and the like
You ought be be ashamed of yourself denigrating the contribution of the real heroes of that friggin' Imperial bloodbath
The fact that you aren't makes you what you are
"And where and when did Iains or myself comment on it?"
One of Ake's bon mottes - he's one of the stars of your pack - if not the prime example
Iaians is just vacuous decoration and you- and amusing caricature of the dying Empire Days
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:49 AM

I shall email my MP but, like Steve, I don't hold out much hope. Julian Smith is also a Tory who has always voted with his party line.

I wouldn't worry to much about the detractors. Either do as the opening post suggests or don't. Up to individuals. But I would point out that the 'long term member of the Communist Party' posting above did vote Conservative in the last election and his opinions do not really carry any credence.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:51 AM

Steve Shaw
"It's called democracy. If you don't like it, start a civil war thread. I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers. This thread is a gentle suggestion from a man of great integrity that you might wish to consider lobbying your MP."
Steve Shaw
"Posting about food is deliberate and intentional thread drift, designed to irritate but not to goad into emotional responses, therefore it is not trolling. I would estimate that all bar about four people who read these benighted threads welcome it as a leavening of the bread (now there's an idea - I might come back to that). Clearly, your understanding of trolling is about as hazy as your understanding of antisemitism."


Taken the hipocritic oath have we?

The volunteers raised controversy at the time. Those same questions remain today. Some regarded them as heroes, some as fools,others as misguided. Obviously trying to drum up support for the motion will raise counter arguments. I believe this is called democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM

"therefore it is not trolling."
Your persistent ill-brought-up and aggressive attempts to talk to talk down to people are
If you wish to be taken seriously, I suggest you pack it in - our in-house meglomanic clown' spot is already taken
"The volunteers raised controversy at the time. "
From the experience of my father and others I have met, any controversy was deliberately generated by the lie that those who went of to fight were communists bent on fermenting revolution, when the opposite was the case
Even on the eve of Britain's war with Germany, on their return, they were criminalised and given a record as "premature anti-fascists" and blacklisted from their work - that is how much WW2 was the "war against fascism" it was claimed to have been
The personal consequences of this was that my family didn't see may father on a regular basis until he was able to obtain regular work at home in 1950
That was the 'Home fit for heroes' that the establishment created from the sacrifices of Spain and WW2
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM

In current popular thinking,
there may be an attempt to start all over again with a new political & economic system
sometime after the dust has settled from the imminent global eco* / nuclear* / zombie* / alien invasion* apocalypse.... 🙄


[* Take yer pick - check bookies odds...]


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 01:05 PM

Btw.. if any hack political pundits have been drawing comparisons between the Spanish Civil War,
and British born volunteers defying the law to risk the hazards of travelling to fight IS1S in Syria....?????

A future Ken Loachish movie auteur might get an interesting thought provoking drama out of that diverse mismatched 'band of brothers [& sisters]'...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 01:36 PM

I would have thought that the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 would have placed all the volunteers in breach of the law. This would make it rather difficult for Parliament to acknowledge any kind of recognition for their illegal activities. Or does modern Parliament turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality when it suits?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

A very brief overview but perhaps some may question the veracity.


http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj84/durgan.htm

There is an argument put forward that certain european powers including Britain and France kept well clear of the civil war, for fear of it exploding into a greater regional war. Russia and Germany had no such reservations.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 02:32 PM

Going back to the OP and its link, what I find wrong about it is the attempt to piggyback today's issues onto a genuine cause over which much blood was shed. Surely we can find real cases of "fascism, racism, xenophobia, and totalitarianism" in the here and now without having to find vindication eighty years in the past?

Something similar just happened when an American Congressman filmed himself in Auschwitz with a message combining his concerns with the brutalities of the past in a way that satisfied nobody.

I think in both cases the real damage is done in cheapening our perception of past events.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:29 PM

"Surely we can find real cases of "fascism, racism, xenophobia, and totalitarianism" in the here and now without having to find vindication eighty years in the past?"
A vital condition of progress is that we understand our past - we can't give our history to Oxfam like an old coat - it remains with us forever
It's interesting that the right here only wish to kick Spain into touch but are happy to go on the obscenities that were the World Wars - discussions like this make it clear that Spain digs up far too many establishment skeletons to suit their politics, so let's forget a principled war fought by volunteers who were willing to lay their lives down for a decent cause and continue to kiss the backsides of the leaders whose job it was to get as many young men as possible and send them to their deaths until "the enemy", who were basically in the same position, threw in the towel.
Then our children's children can all sit by the fir and discuss the next time it happens - and it will if it' allowed to.
Sorry Robo - we owe the future far more than that
Haven't we left the world in enough of a shit state without adding to it?
Interesting link Iains - if somewhat partisan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:56 PM

Jim. I think you take a partisan view of the civil war. It could be argued it was a proxy war for the Soviets and Nazis but only in a half heated sort of way. Despite communist recruitment of the volunteers, reports suggest training and equipment was deficient, despite a kind of Soviet participation. This seems to have been more to do with leaders and commissars but limited commissariat.
Britain was slowly beginning to realise that Hitler was an increasing threat, but initial threats were thought to be in the East.The Defence Requirements Sub-Committee costed the requirements at 75million. Chamberlein cut it to 50. A second report was issued in 1935 insisting on acceleration and more aircraft. A third report was issued in 1936.
It was DECISIVE. It looked at war with Germany, Japan and Italy; the report contained a stark warning: Britain could not win this coming war. Therefore, it suggested, appeasement was a good idea. To be in the situation outlined it was no surprise that Britain was terrified that the Spanish Civil War might escalate beyond it's borders and that
rearmament at that time had hardly started, and that when it did start the initial aim was purely deterrence, not battle. I would posit the big picture had many more constraints on British courses of action than you allow for. In essence we were weak and unprepared for a total war. By Aug 1939 the Molotov ribbentrop pact destroyed the hope of a pact with Stalin, who hoped that Germany would fight on a western front and enable the soviets to become stronger. This made the British and allies position even more precarious. The situation throughout the 30's was complex and constantly changing and cannot be easily summarised in a couple of paragraphs. You may have detailed knowledge of the civil war but many other external factors dictated the actions of other governments that directly impacted the civil war.



https://jamespetersnell.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/404/


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 05:13 PM

"I would have thought that the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 would have placed all the in breach of the law. This would make it rather difficult for Parliament to acknowledge any kind of recognition for their illegal activities. Or does modern Parliament turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality when it suits?"

What criminality, please? We live in a democracy in which it is valid and appropriate to challenge silly laws. It was a bloody silly law to shut pubs in Wales on Sundays. It was a bloody silly law that made gay people criminals. It was a bloody silly law that allowed this country to hang people on the end of a knotted rope. Resorting to an act of 1870 yo make any sort of case, wow, such an enlighted time I don't think, is the resort of a charlatan and an idiot. If the cap fits...

Anyway, lobby your MP or don't bother. You and your ilk have poisoned a thread that was started with the best of intentions. I hope you're happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

Well I've written to my MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 07:29 PM

"Jim. I think you take a partisan view of the civil war."
Most socialists do - they regard fascism an enemy of society (I can think of at least six million reasons why that is the case) and anybody who is prepared to stand up to the threat of fascism, despite their government's appeasement of it. heroes
None of your lot has actually got round to tackling that appeasement., and I doubt if you will ever emerge far enough out of your closets to do so.
The Civil War was a proxy for nothing - Franco opposed a legally elected Government, he staged a military coup and enlisted the support of the Moroccans to support him
This happened at the the time that Lord Rothermere, via his Daily Mail, was supporting the Hitler Government and the rise of British Fascism, Mosley's thugs were taking to the streets (protected by our boys in Blue) and the Nazis were well into their persecution of the Jews
My old man (who was a well-brought-up Catholic Collegian), and many others of similar ilk, saw the warning signs and decided that, if the governments were not going to do anything about it, somebody should.
His mother, my grandmother (who I met only once) beat him by a few month when she was arrested for throwing a stone at Mosley and hitting him - another family hero
Bullshit aside, if what I have described her didn't happen, or if Mosley or Franco have been greatly misjudged by history, please feel free to put be back on the straight and narrow.
In the case of the latter, having just read 'The Spanish Holocaust', you may add the fact that Franco's fascism continued virtually up to his death with mass torture and murder, in many cases, simply for revenge for the Civil War
The case is a simple one - fascism was on the rise, having first welcomed it as "a bulwark against Bolshevism" the bulk of our leaders decided to continue to support it, hoping it's excesses would be confined to Germany, the volunteers left the safety of their homes and went to fight it
Your blog from a totally unknown and presumably unqualified blogger touches on none of this - if I was the slightest bit interested I would be tempted to ask 'what's your point'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 07:44 PM

It was a bad time. But, to quote John Seymour (hardly a leftie), the working people of this country had little time for the Jews but they were damned if they were going to stand by while they were herded into death camps. I lived and worked in that part of the East End for seven years and the memory was still strong (my favourite pub, alas a pub no more, was a habitat of the Krays too but they were dissed by the locals. You can always trust ordinary working people to be on the right side in the end. Living and working among them for over a decade taught me that. I think it's beginning to happen again right now).

Great post, Jim. I wish everyone posting to this thread could be so positive.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 03:56 AM

"my favourite pub, alas a pub no more, was a habitat of the Krays too"
I assume you are referring to 'The Blind Beggar' on Whitechapel Road - we recorded many Travellers on a piece of waste ground on a road running parallel to the main road and drank with them a few doors down from 'The Beggar' (which shares its name with one of the oldest songs still in currency among Irish Travellers in the 70s - we used the 'Blind man and dog' woodcut to illustrate our first album of Traveller songs, 'Early in the Month of Spring')
The East End of London had a proud record of anti-fascist activity in the Thirties - we used to go to an Irish music session in a pub named (ironically) The Britannia, opposite Cable Street - that street proudly boasts a blue plaque commemorating THE BATTLE of CABLE STREET when ordinary British people, dockers, costermongers, shopworkers...... ordinary British people, political and non-political, took to the streets in their thousands to oppose marching fascists and baton-wielding mounted police protecting them.
That's the militant Britain I am proud to be part of and remember - not the nodding dog ceremonies commemorating the leaders who sat back in the comfort and safety of their bases, fighting among themselves and sending the wrong shells and information to the front, condemning an entire generation of young men to their deaths in the mud of Europe.
My first landlord in London, a doctor named Hugh Faulkner, a man you would never fail to recognise as being Jewish, quietly volunteered to infiltrate The Blackshirts and attend their meetings in order to report where their marches were to take place in advance so they could be opposed
When the trolls and goose-steppers on this forum accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and an "Anglophobe" I remember that their England isn't mine and their Jews are not my Jews.
My Jews are Hugh Faulkner and the Les Parrington (who fled South African Apartheid Regime in order to escape an arrest warrant for opposing that regime) - or all the holocaust survivors I met in Manchester - their Jews are the regime that drugged and kidnapped my personal hero, Mordechai Vanunu and imprisoned him for seventeen years, eleven of those in solitary confinement, for telling the world what it desperately needed to know.
My England is that of the dock workers I befriended when I was an apprentice - those who worked in foul, health-destroying conditions and fought to change those conditions, turning being a docker from the old "pen system" where workers were selected on a daily basis like animals being picked for slaughter, to a dignified and respected occupation where they went home with a living wage at the end of the week (until the docks were finally closed as wealth producers for Britain and sources of employment for Liverpool people, and eventually turned into museums and homes for the wealth by Thatcher and her predecessors)
Now I'm getting on in years, hardly a week goes past when I don't think with pride of the sacrifice made by my old man and his mates to try and stop fascism getting a hold in the world
You may stick your accusations of "Jew hater" and "Anglophobe" up until it knocks your hat off - they remind me of the different values held in the two Britains that have been created so that those who already more than enough have, can accumulate even more
Have a good day y'all - off to Galway to see the new Joe Heaney film
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 05:39 AM

I vaguely remember that pub, Jim, as it one of the pubs we'd start our last-day-of-term pissups back in the day, probably coming to a staggering finish at the Hollands. One of those Whitechapel pubs had amazing Victorian gents toilets, more sculptured porcelain and polished brass than in the rest of London put together, but I can't remember if it was that one. Mine was actually the Exmouth Arms, popularly known as the Hollands after the Victorian family and their descendants who ran it, just off Commercial Road on Exmouth Street, the other side of the road from Cable Street. I think it officially changed its name to the Hollands in the seventies as no-one ever called it anything else! Sadly gone now. Not quite as notorious as the Blind Beggar which has dined out on the fact that Ronnie murdered a rival in cold blood in the saloon bar. It wasn't entirely sensible to go into those pubs in the early seventies shooting your mouth off about the Krays, just as you wouldn't go into a bar in Palermo rattling on about the Mafia!

Thanks for the great post by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 05:51 AM

Jim Unlike you I try to look at the various points of view and see where the consensus lies. The paper I quoted may be unknown to you but it is the content that is critical. It agrees with the premise that Britain was not prepared to be drawn into a regional war that would end in defeat. You can call it appeasement if you wish. The objective was to keep out of it entirely and prepare for an inevitable war.It is also critical to appreciate the extent to which the great depression and isolationism of the US impacted on military preparedness. You keep stressing appeasement as some sort of dirty word, the reality is that it was the only practical option available. The British government could hardly declare "time out" while they prepared for the inevitable.
Another view.
http://www.internationalschooltoulouse.net/ibhistory/spain/phillips_ex_essay.htm

I preferred the Prospect of Whitby on Wapping Wall, although the ankle deep glass on the floor at the end of the evening was a bit of a challenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM

What consensus Iains?
Nobody was ever asked to vote on the appeasement of fascism, or is there a gap in my knowledge of the history of the period?
I prefer the views of the British people ispired by the actual events at the time they were happening rather than those generated by an agenda driven press trying to defend the crimes of past administrations who were happy to let the Jews go to their deaths in millions rather than disturb the political and economic status quo and the finer feelings of 'Herr Hitler'
The end result was yet another war – after our politicians had promeised us that the last bloodbath was "the war to end all wars"
You people really do put your weight behing the 'right people' what with your fire refugees sleeping in the parks rather than allowing them the use of empty buildings, and your poor misjudged Assad accused falsely of mass murder and torture
Give us a break, will you
The Spanish Civil War was sold out by the democracies (sic) because, right up to five-to-midnight, they still considered the Nazis "the bulwark against Bolshevism"
Jim Carroll
Would that Sian Phillips the one who gave that wonderful performance as the evil Livia in 'I Claudius'


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM

Try harder.

I drank in the Prospect many times. We held our Lancastrians' Association (of the University of London) meetings there. I was the treasurer. We once treated Thora Hird and her husband to dinner as our special guests. I sat next to Thora all evening. She was great company, solid Lancashire with just a touch of posh. She complained about the cheese being overripe! The trouble with that pub was the 96 steps up to the street from the platform at Wapping tube station. We also drank at the Mayflower in Rotherhithe, washing crusty white bread and finest cheddar and chutney down with real ale (best meal on the planet when you're a bit peckish) and I remember sitting by the river at The Angel supping icy pints of lager after work on those extremely hot 1976 evenings. It just had to be cold, hence lager.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM

Steve you went to the prospect more than 10 years after my visits.
When I was there the swanky eatery was upstairs and downstairs on a friday saturday night a hawaian group played, fenced in by scaffold poles. They played along to the rugby songs being sung in a jam packed bar. It would take 20mins to reach the bar and a further 20 to get served. The secret was to arrive early and get sufficient crates to last the evening.

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=119297


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:29 AM

I started going there in 1969.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 17 - 10:40 PM

When the trolls and goose-steppers on this forum accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and an "Anglophobe" I remember that their England isn't mine and their Jews are not my Jews.

Given the multiple messages that have been eliminated from this thread without cause, it becomes clear that YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 12:56 AM

I'm thinking maybe the moderators have been too active in this thread. I don't think it's clear that there was a right side and a wrong side in the Spanish Civil War. There's still a lot of room for debate. Some of the deletions in this thread are justifiable, but I would ask the moderators to be a little more moderate in their moderation.
A lot of important folk music stems from the Spanish Civil War, so I think it's right for me to speak up on this.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 04:17 AM

"YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!"
I'm not the one who invented the term "self-hating Jews" to support policies that the civilised people of thew world find obnoxious and inhuman
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jewish people in Germany - I met several Israeli freedom fighters, one of whom shared a cell with him in San Sebastian Prison
My grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone at Mosely at an Anti-Jewish Rally (the family story that the stone hit its mark was confirmed by a member of this forum)
I dated the daughter of a Holocaust survivor - we fell out because I was shocked when her mother when she compared the Israeli regime to the Nazis - I didn't know any better in those days.
I'm sick and tired of being called "a Jew Hater" by an Anti Semite on this thread because I, along with Jews throughout the world, are critical of what has happened to Israel in the hands of right wing regime after right wing regime, despite the clause in the accepted definition that states clearly that "it is antisemitic to hold Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
I have never accused The Jewish People collectively responsible" for anything and have offered a generous donation to any charity named by anybody who can show I have - no takers so far.
To accuse critics of Israel of being antisemitic is antisemitic by definition - Bobad does that, Robo is now beginning to do that - my offer still stands.
My Jews are not their Jews - I stand with the 'Jews for Justice, and the Rabbis for Justice' nd the Holocaust Survivors who compared the behaviour of Israel in Gaza to that of the Nazis, and Mordachai Venunu, who spent 18 years under house arrest, 11 of those in solitary confinement, for telling the world what it needed to know, that an unstable extremist right wing state had nuclear weapons - they are my Jews.   
Israel has become an antisemitic state because it bases its entire defence of its behaviour on accusations that its opponents are antisemitic for condemning its behaviour in Gaza - the civilised world condemns its behaviour in Gaza.
Israel has recently confirmed it's antsemitic position through its u-turn over events in Hungary - a lift from another thread
"The ultra-right there issued an antisemitic poster attacking Jewish billionaire George Soros
Human rights Watch compared the poster to Nazi propaganda, Yossi Amrani, Israel's ambassador agreed and demanded a ban on the poster   
His bosses in Israel endorsed the call, but U-turned when they found that Soros gave money to charities which are critical of Netanyahu - they are now defending the poster.
So the Israeli regime has finally come out publicly declaring their own well-being to be more important than that of the Jewish People
That's from today's Times, by the way"

I had no intention of bringing this argument to this thread - Robo has done it and I feel the need to respond
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jews - my grandmother was arrested because of the antisemitism that was showing its evil face on the streets of Liverpool - Jewish friends and fellow travellers have been part of my life for most of my life - I believe they came to my parents wedding and my Christening, I met two Israeli freedom fighters who fought for the news State of Israel at my father's funeral
When members of this thread who, contrary to the European definition, can't tell the difference between the actions of the Israeli regime and the interests of the Jewish People as a whole, accuse me of antisemitism I will respond
There's and end to it, as far as I'm concerned.
I've just returned refreshed from seeing the wonderful new Joe Heaney film, 'Song of Granite'
So if anybody wants to take up the argument about the Spanish Civil War, perhaps we can do so without trying to talk down to people (if the cap fits....)
By the way Robo "YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!"
Far from it - my Jews are the ones who are branded "self hating" because they refuse to be silent about the crimes of the people who refer to them as "self haters" and "self loathers" - this includes the Holocaust survivors who signed the petition, Albert Einstein and his friends who warned abut the rise of Zionist fascism, the ex heads of Mossad who compared the present regime the behaviour of the present Israeli regime to that of the Nazis..... and every brave Jew who has risked being branded antisemitic because they are appalled at what has happened to the State of Israel - they are "my Jews" - hardly "silent"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 AM

I don't agree with you, Joe. The thread was started in good faith by a man who has a very long-running music thread on the Spanish Civil War who asked us to consider contacting our MPs about a possible upcoming motion in Parliament. He did not ask for a bunch of right-wing trolls to take over the thread and destroy its sentiment. A number of the deleted posts were highly and gratuitously offensive. The trolls are generally identifiable by the arrogant manner in which they complain about post deletions. There is ample scope here for anyone who wants to to start a Spanish Civil War thread to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM

I would ask Joe to be a little less willing to appease trolls.
Don't work so hard at making Mudcat a relatively safe place to verbally beat the shit out of opponents, and pretty much say the same thing, over and over, mainly because of WHO is posting.

OP:
Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126


If you want to protect them, maybe you should just give the brawlers a Permathread™ for Jewish/anti, so any thread that comes close to mentioning (or implying) Jews doesn't get usurped by obsessives?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM

Into the hopper it goes:

I'm an American rabbi. Israel no longer recognizes my religious authority. Washington Post.


And because I know that the rabbis on the list with me aren't actually the only rabbis blacklisted. The blacklist really encompasses all rabbis who don't subscribe to the exclusionary worldview of the Rabbanut. Most of all, I feel sad because it is not really just rabbis who are blacklisted: All progressive-minded Jews have been blacklisted. The Rabbanut has shunned all of us who welcome open questioning, diversity, pluralism and many paths to God and to holiness within our people, and in the world.

I feel sad for all the Jewish people, for the ultra-Orthodox contempt for other Jews who are not like them. I grieve for the way they undermine Jewish unity in the interest of their political power in Israel. This lethal mixture of politics and religion is tearing apart the Jewish world through this list and similar exclusionary tactics — most notably, the recent agreement between ultra-Orthodox Jews and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to revoke an earlier deal that would have officially sanctioned pluralistic prayer services at the Western Wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

I don't think it's clear that there was a right side and a wrong side in the Spanish Civil War.

Really Joe? Franco was an OK guy? Guernica was a morally neutral act? My grandfather (from Bilbao) lost a brother at Guernica and two others killed by the Fascists.

Think again.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 11:41 AM

I think it's pretty clear too, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/canadaBlanch/pdf/press2012/16Apr12WalesArtsReview.pdf
THIS MIGHT HELP MAKE UP A FEW MINDS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM

I think, Jeri, that you may be confused. As far as I know, Mudcat has never had a policy of prohibiting provocative statements. We do, however, attempt to prohibit or at least control combative conduct. There is no doubt in my mind that robomatic and akenation and a few others who express the right-wing perspective, post statements that are frequently and intentionally provocative. And predictably, we have a few from the dominant liberal perspective who respond like an anthill underfoot. Their indignation would almost be precious, if it were not so predictable.
If they wished, the liberals could use the provocation to respond in a rational and informative manner. Jim Carroll responded just now with a link that was very informative: http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/canadaBlanch/pdf/press2012/16Apr12WalesArtsReview.pdf. Others responded with their usual tizzy of indignation.
If we suppressed the conservative provocateurs to satisfy the indignant majority, then the liberals could sit around smugly and admire each other for a while. And within a short time, they'd get bored and infighting would begin, and combat here at Mudcat would be worse than it is now.
So, yeah, I usually find the provocative statements of the conservatives to be disagreeable - but they are very rarely combative. With the way certain liberal Mudcatters get in a tizzy about things, that conservatives have no need to be combative.
Put the blame on those who do combat, Jeri; not on those who simply express disagreeable ideas. The liberals need to learn how to respond with logic and information, not with a frenzy of indignation. The conservatives serve the function of provoking discussion. I don't see that as something that should be suppressed.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 04:43 PM

The conservatives serve the function of provoking discussion.

So Drumph's and other "conservatives'" serial lies, misinformation, white supremacy & misogyny simply "provoke discussion"?

Unh-hunh. You bet, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

So, Greggy, we're talking about the Spanish Civil War here. Do you know anything about it? Your friend Trump most likely knows nothing about it, so leave him out of it. It took place 1936-39. Many Americans fought on the side of the Republicans, but they lost to the Fascists under Franco. Anti-Franco Americans were considered suspect in the United States, and the U.S. Government played footsie with Franco for decades.
Why was it that the Americans were so friendly to Franco for so long?

Like I say, your friend Trump wouldn't know, even though he calls himself a Republican.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 PM

"Put the blame on those who do combat, Jeri; not on those who simply express disagreeable ideas."

Duh

Done playing with trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:31 PM

The Spanish Civil War generated a good number of Songs of the Spanish Civil War threads. I think we have a lot to learn on the subject. Many of the songs were hopelessly idealistic, as were the soldiers who came from all over the world to fight on behelf of the Spanish Republic. Maybe it's time for a realistic reassessment.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 06:53 PM

So, Greggy, we're talking about the Spanish Civil War here. Do you know anything about it?

So Joey, re-read 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

And then piss off.

PS: Why was it that the Americans were so friendly to Hitler for so long?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

You have this arse about face, Joe. Combative behaviour here is in itself not objectionable. What is objectionable is when the combative behaviour is peppered with personal insults, misrepresentations and obsessively tedious repetitions. On the other hand, the very definition of trolling requires behaviour deliberately intended to provoke. Look it up. Of course, good rough-and-tumble debate requires some provocation, otherwise it would be repressively dull. But the provocation objected to here by some of us "liberals" (your word, most emphatically not mine) is all too often motivated by bigotry. Calling someone a Jew-hater is both extremely provocative and is born of bigotry on the part of the provocateur. It's trolling, in other words. I'm sorry that you can't see it for what it is (well, unless of course you really believe that the likes of Jim and me are truly Jew-haters). And that sentence is intended to be provocative. But not trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 12:37 AM

Well, gee, Stevie. I tried searching, and found that the term ":Jew-hater" is used almost exclusively by those Mudcatters that most people think to be liberal. You're one of the primary users of the term.
The fact of the matter is, that it's the so-called liberals who continually act like ants whose anthill got stepped on.
So, how about discussing facts, rather than name-calling?

Same for you, Greggy. If you know something about the Spanish Civil War, why not talk about it instead of bringing up Trump again? Thne Spanish Civil War is a fascinating subject, so there should be no need for you cads to resort to your usual petty squabbling. Where did/does the Spanish monarchy fit into all of this?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM

"Jew-hater" is used almost exclusively by those Mudcatters that most people think to be liberal."
I've no idea where this acme from Joe
The only individual who uses this as a term of invective is Bobad - the rest of us quote it in response to his insulting and personal behaviour which had continued unchecked for years now
Bobad lashes out with his accusation of "antisemite" and "Jew hater" whenever any of us deem to criticise his favourite terrorist state - those of us at the brunt of his insults quote his having done so - he is the only one to use it as a serious accusation.
I'll be extremely surprised if you can come up with another example.
The fact that Bobad's trollish behaviour has gone unchecked (publicly, that is) unstopped for as long as it has, is as big a mystery to me as are The Marie Celeste and the Bronze Age Forts that scatter The Burren.
I've just put up a statement about your church's involvement in the Spanish Civil War, largely based on my father's experiences at their hands while a prisoner there - I find this morning that that message hes been removed.
It personally attacked nobody - it was straightforward fact - yet it is no longer there.
That shows a somewhat uneven-handed approach in my opinion
WE all lose ouyr rag occasionally during these arguments - it happens with subjects you regard important (especially when those subjects effect you personally)
Only two posters consistently set out to insult and talk down other members of this forum - one a veteran, and one a newbie who has lifted his insulting behaviour wholesale and hasn't the experience nor the imagination to make it his own - neither of these could be described as "liberals"
Even the persistent misuse of the term "liberal" has become an insult in the postings of one rather odd individual - when pressed, he defines it as "fascist"
I enjoy debating with people on this forum - whether they share my views or not - it is a way of re-questioning your own opinions and, at best, sharing information.
Unfortunately, for some it is a game of "winning and losing" at all costs - when that happens, the value is flushed down the jacks, and all too often, the culprit/s complain of "too much information - too many facts".
We all need to clear up out acts - some of us tried with what you described as "childish name-calling" yet one individual persists defiantly (probably because he has little else going for him)
Nuff said
I will re-post my Church/Franco message later and see what happens
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM

I think the Catholic Church has a lot to be embarrassed about in Spain and Portugal, Jim, going back to Ferdinand and Isabella and the Borgias in the 15th Century - and the expulsion of the Moors and Jews, and the Spanish Inquisition.

Fatima in Portugal is an interesting phenomenon, the reported appearance of the Virgin Mary in 1917, with a strong anti-communist message. To this day, a military honor guard is part of the nightly procession at the shrine, led by a uniformed soldier carrying a neon cross like a flag. I do relish the irony of a Catholic shrine with a Muslim name (Fatíma).

There is a militarism to the Catholic faith in Spain and Portugal, that makes me very nervous. I think it's safe to say the militarism pervades the culture, not just the religion. Salazar and Franco have not been forgotten, and I'm wondering why their memory remains so attractive.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 05:57 AM

Accusing me of "using" the term Jew-hater is tremendously unfair of you, Joe. I have only ever referred to the term in posts critical of the main employer of the term on this forum and have never used it to describe anyone else. Many such instances of his use of the term to defame other members of the forum have been allowed to stand, to the eternal disgrace of this forum. That is one brush you should not tar Jim and me with. As I said in a now-deleted post (no complaints on that score, by the way), there are times when you need to cast aside the fact that you may not care much for the two of us. But fair's fair, eh, and we are grown-ups after all. That was an exceptionally careless and unthinking criticism.

Fátima is one of the most egregious examples of Catholic hocus-pocus. I'm amazed that you give it any credence at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 08:50 AM

"Greggie"? "Stevie"- Gee, Joey - didn't I get a bollocking from you for "calling people names" a while back??

instead of bringing up Trump again?

"Bringing up Trump" was only an example to show up your sophomiric and silly "provoke discussion" scenario.

"If you know something about the Spanish Civil War, why not talk about it

As you obviously know nothing about the Spanish Civil War why not shut the hell up about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 08:52 AM

In the face of all this weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth over the term "Jew hater", which BTW can be easily backed up by evidence, if you look up usage of terms like "Nazis", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist" etc. you will detect a strong odour of hypocrisy emanating from the two prominent whiners.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM

The difference being Boobad you used the term on anyone who you THINK criticises the Jewish state.

In fact if anyone mentions Israeli in less than glowing terms you rise up and accuse them of being Jew Haters irrespective of the content of their post.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM

Oh, just leave him to prattle on. Notable that even Keith and Teribus don't support him. I expect they have to do that uncomfortable buttock-shuffle thing every time he thinks he's posting "on their side." Perhaps he could get akenaton on board...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM

you used the term on anyone who you THINK criticises the Jewish state.

Not true, there is legitimate criticism then there is using lies in order to demonize.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:18 AM

" which BTW can be easily backed up by evidence, "
This becomes intolerable
There are no "Jew Haters" or antisemites on Mudcat - there never have been; they would have been hunted out and removed long ago.
Joe accuses Steve of using the term but the serial culprit is allowed to continue unchecked
"Antisemitism" has now become a stock defence of Israeli state terrorism - a form of suppression of all criticism of that subject
Unless Bobad comes up with his evidence that anybody on this forum has embarked on a campaign of hate against the Jewish people, I sugest he be formally asked to desist and if he refuses, be expelled
One of the conditions of joining this forum is that we do not insult each other - about time this was applied to at least the serial offenders
Some of us here take antisemitism seriously enough to object to it being used to pursue personal agendas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM

Jojo is honing his trolling skills. I'd say he's fair game now.

Live by the sword, get poked in the bum by the sword...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps we can move on from this toxic idiocy and continue the subject with a modicum of decency
I posted this earlier - it mysteriously disappeared -one more time
My father went to Spain as a practicing Catholic appalled at what was happening to the Jewish people both in Europe and on the streets of Britain - any politicisation came later
He was wounded and captured, at first he was tended in a hospital run bu Nuns - no problem - he received humane and careful treatment for his wounds
When he was moved to San Sebastian Prison, he began to question his former loyalty to the church.
The priests there has merged themslves into the fascist regime and all idea that the Republican prisoners should be treated as human beings quickly disappeared
One of the favourite spots of the guards was to irregularly but frequently select a prisoner, take him out to the yard , where the priest would administer the last rites, the guards would line up and take aim - then the 'firing squad' and the priest would fall about laughing as the prisoner was led back to his cell, usually soaked in his own piss
This happened at least half a dozen times to my father (I learned this fairy recently from a historian researching the role of Liverpudlians in Spain - my dad never spoke of it).
The only time I ever saw him weep was when he related the story of a 14 year old Spanish boy who had been suspected of being a runner for the Republican forces.
The somewhat laid-back Italian commandant over the prison decided that the boy was not a great threat, so he ordeered him to be detained with the rest
Unfortunately, a priest recogised the lad as being from his home village and requested that he be executed (for fear that we war would turn out differently than it did) - the boy was shot immediately
Franco's Spain existed far longer than any other fascist state, and at its height, its crimes were similar to those of the Assad regime - like Syria, it continued to exist with the full support of the "decent democratic countries"
The church continued to be an enthusiastic supporter throughout that time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM

Joe is one of a rare breed ....a real liberal.
Read what he says and learn.....most of you are not fit to lace his boots.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

" real liberal."
For "liberal" read "fascist"
Perhaps another subject for a warning
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

I agree with Joe on this one, but his post is probably one of the most provocative on the thread.
Why was it not deleted......geese and ganders come to mind!   Oh better re-phrase that for Mudcat consumption. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM

More Ake news. Sad.

Does Joey wear boots?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM

There's quite a difference between using a term and mentioning a term that someone else has used. Calling me a "primary user" of a term that I only ever mention in reaction to its being used as a defamatory term of abuse towards a couple of us is a bit ridiculous really.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

C'mon lads - don't let this feller drive another thread into the ground - that's what they do best
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM

WHICH feller? Joey, Boobs or Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

"WHICH feller? Joey, Boobs or Ake?"
I think two of those are deliberately attempting to fuck up thread that are not confortable with
Don't let them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

I dunno. I searched and searched under "jew-hater" and "jew hater," and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such. The term is used dozens of times by those who accuse others of using the term. So, what am I to conclude? Maybe if the term were dropped altogether, the problems would mostly go away. Or, if there is something said that might imply that someone is antisemitic, perhaps it would be appropriate to respond to the matter rationally at the time the implication is made, rather than repeating it endlessly out of context?

And try as I might to encourage people to actually talk about the Spanish Civil war in this thread, few of the "usual suspects" seem to be able to carry on a reasonable discussion of the matter, and they almost immediately go back to their usual squabbling - now tied to an allegation that I know nothing about Spain and Portugal, and thus am not qualified to participate in the discussion.

So, what was it about the Franco regime that drew both Republican and Democratic American governments to support it for such a long time?

What amount of support did France and the UK offer to Franco and Salazar?

Was the US support due to the fact that Franco and Salazar offered the US military bases?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM

" and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such."
Try Labout Party 2 Joe
Bobad uses it at lest half a dozen times there - that took me less than five minutes
Will happily spend a half hour at it and come up with another dozen or so
He also uses "antisemite" regularly - haven't got time to count tham just now - I have an appointment next Thursday
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:00 PM

OK, Jim, you got me. I was bored silly by the bickering in the first Labour thread, so I hadn't bothered with the second. It appears the term "Jew Hater" is used 37 times in the thread, distributed fairly equally between the two sides of the "debate." I think perhaps the term has been thrown back and forth so often, that it's no longer picked up by our search engines.

Still, the "Jew Hater" stuff all seems rather silly to me, and even more inane to bring it over into this thread.
Sheer pettiness, and then some.

So, about the International Brigades....does anybody have anything to say about the International Brigades? Where does Hemingway fit into the story? To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco?


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:11 PM

Sorry Joe - missed a couple
Without bothering to trace "antisemite" - this is Bobad's input to that thread

Isn't that rich coming from a Jew hater.

This perfectly illustrates the persistence and obsessiveness of Jew hating ideologues.

And they try to make everyone believe that they are not Jew haters.....lol.

I don't need anonymity to call proven Jew haters what they are.

Well Shaw, you've been shown to be a proven liar, a bigot, a hypocrite and a Jew hater. Is that succinct enough for you?

For the first time in history, an indigenous people regained self determination on ancestral land they had been exiled from and the Jew haters can't get over it.

That's an example of the typical rhetoric of Jew haters.

By people who know a fuck of a lot more about warfare than a couple of Jew haters on a folk music forum.

Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters.


Most people argue on these threads - the "bickering and bad feeling comes in response to tthis abuse - which is the tip of the iceberg for this individual
It may be "silly" to you - not sure the six million would have agreed with you had they not ended up exterminated
I was brought up to respect all races and cultures and when little jobbies like this individual starts slinging his obscenities about it's about time he was stopped
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:19 PM

OK, I guess I have to admit that bobad does seem to be an intentional troll. The "jew hater" thing was something you guys had been fussing about long before bobad got involved, and bobad picked up on it. He set the bait, and you guys bit the hook.
If you guys could just stick with rational discussion....
Maybe not. I tried that in the Easter Rising thread last year, and still got burned by bobad. That's when I realized he was evil.
So, about Stalin and the Spanish Civil War?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM

" and bobad picked up on it."
er - no actually
Nobody has eer called my a Jew hater in my life - I would have been kicked out of home on my arse has someone even hinted I was - taht's how serious I take it
Paople have hited that I am an antisemitism occasionally - but "Jew Hater is all Bobad's own work
I suggest he be asked to desist and if he continues he be kicked out on his arse
Stalin and Spain
I've already put a bit of it up but I'm happy to continue
Soviet Russia was one of those participants that insisted that it should be a fight against fascism and not a revolution - the argument was one of the reasons why Trotsky ended up wearing an ice-pick for a hat
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 04:13 PM

When I was an apprentice or slightly after, an old labourer worked with me, he was an ex-railwayman LNER and a Communist Party member, spent about forty years on the railway and ended up Fireman on the "Flying Scotsman" he had lived in London for most of these years, although born and bred in Perth. It was he that got me interested in Socialism.

Anyway he lived through the era of Oswald Mosley and British Fascism, was involved in the Anti Fascist street fighting at that time, Cable Street etc....he told me that the fights were solely between the Fascists and the Communists, well organised battles in which the two sides were pretty evenly matched.......he was amazed at the apparent apathy of the ordinary uncommitted Londoners, "They used to just stand around and watch" he said


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 04:37 PM

"I dunno. I searched and searched under "jew-hater" and "jew hater," and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such. The term is used dozens of times by those who accuse others of using the term. So, what am I to conclude?"

Stop being so bloody annoying, Joe. The only reason you've reached your misguided conclusion is that you have not read the posts in which the term appears. Doing a search, finding a number then concluding that your usual suspects have "used" the term is extremely unfair. We have not. Wisely or not, we have reacted to bobad's use of the term. USE, Joe. He is the only person who has USED the term. You seriously need to,
review your position. I'm very glad, however, that you have at least recognised that bobad is a troll. I have a number of PMs from mods that say it in private. Good for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM

For "liberal" read "fascist"

Thank you, I now add "fascist" to my list.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 06:24 PM

"I...got burned by bobad. That's when I realized he was evil."

Evil Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:00 PM

If you want to discuss the Spanish Civil War, Joey, how about you read up on it first so you can discuss it intelligently?

Also, meant to ask this a while back-
Fatima... a military honor guard is part of the nightly procession at the shrine, led by a uniformed soldier carrying a neon cross like a flag

Do they also have jugglers, clowns, soothsyers and carnival rides?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM

"Joe is one of a rare breed ....a real liberal.
Read what he says and learn.....most of you are not fit to lace his boots"

While Joe may be a thoroughly good man, when I read this I was really inclined to puke at the sycophancy.

Apologies to you Joe, but I am not about to fawn to you or anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:54 PM

So, Mr. Greg, you don't get it. You have failed to demonstrate to us that you have a brain that is in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea. You can throw insults, but you actually are unable to discuss the Spanish Civil War intelligently.

I HAVE read up on the Spanish Civil War to a reasonable extent, all my life; and I ask a serious question: To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco? Was it fear of Communism that was the primary reason for the U.S. support of Franco? Was it the fact that Franco provided military bases to the U.S. after the Spanish Civil War? Why in the world would the U.S. be friendly to a dictator like Franco?

Answer the question, Greg. If you can't, then have the courage to admit it. I really want to know the answer to my question, and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling that ruins all attempts the rest of us make at having a serious discussion. I give a rat's ass about who calls whom what. I want to be able to discuss interesting things here without the bullying interference of you and the other Usual Suspects on both left and right.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:18 PM

and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling that ruins all attampts the rest of us make at having a serious discussion.

It would rather seem, Joe, that in this particular instance at least YOU are the major source and perpetrator of the petty squabbling you pretend to abhor.

You'd best review your own postings on this thread before calling the kettle black, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM

Why can't you answer my question, Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM

Oh and Joe - if you have indeed read up on the Spanish Civil War & the state of the rest of Europe & the U.S. at that time you should be able to answer your own question(s). There's been plenty written about all of it.


Now, about those clowns and jugglers......


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM

Raggytash, I don't suppose Joe cares greatly what you or I think of him. Joe and I have clashed over many issues and agreed on a few; the important thing to me is that Joe remains rational at all times, he is straight and does not use abuse like racist, homophobe etc in place of rational argument.

This thread has been ruined by deletions and were it not for the OP would certainly have been closed....as too many inconvenient truths have been appearing.
I have repeatedly tried to be rational and answer Jim's abuse, to have my post removed within minutes.

Politics in the UK in the thirties were much more polarised than they are today....Communism was perceived as a great danger to our way of life, and Fascism regarded by many as an antidote.

As ever Divide and rule became the order of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM

"Thank you, I now add "fascist" to my list."
That was a quote from Akenataton - he was asked to define "liberal" - he said he meant "fascist"
You started this Bobad - whenever someone criticised Israel, they automatically became a "Jew hater" - this dates back years
I've asked that if you continue with this you be expelled - I hope that will happen - if it doesn't, I will seek to have you thrown out on your arse again.
End of story
The fight against fascism in the thirties was just that - a fight against fascism
The Right-wing press at the time, led by Rothermere's Daily Mail, who openly backed Mosely, distorted it as between Communists and Fascists, and many people fell for it and allowed Mosely to hold his meetings - in fact the protests were a spontaneous opposition to the menace emanating from Germany
My family were typical; they had no political affiliation - they voted labour - that was it.
As far as the Soviet Union was concerned, their policy had evolved into 'Socialism in one country', a form of isolationism.
Trotsky had evolved his theory of 'The Permanent Revolution', suggesting that outside pressure from Capitalist countries would eventually bring about the downfall of Socialism if there was no co-operation between the international revolutionary groups.
Stalin opposed the policy, Trotsky was exiled and eventually murdered.
The Communist parties went into Spain to oppose fascism, not to export revolution - Russia provided weapons for the republicans, these were notoriously out-of-date and inadequate - they were preparing for what they regarded as an inevitable war with Germany.
While the Civil War was at its height, groups like the The Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM), formed by formed by Spanish Trotskyists Andres Nin and Joaquin Maurin, began to demand revolution and fighting broke out between them and those who supported the Soviet line.
Ken Loach's film, 'Land and Freedom' depicted the conflict between the two groups perfectly.
Spain was never an attempted revolution, it was a civil war brought about by split between Nationalists wishing to maintain a status quo which had brought about mass poverty and hardship throughout the country and those wishishing to improve conditions.
Franco - a fascist General, staged a coup against the elected Republican Government and lefts and middle of the roaders throughout the world volunteered in their thousands
Most had linked the events in Spain to the rise of Fascism in Germany.
Just like with the Anti Mosely demonstrations, the riht wing press and the Government in Britain depicted it between Communists and fascists and criminalised those who went to fight
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:38 AM

I used to work as a German linguist and intelligence analyst, and I have a passable understanding of most non-Slavic European languages. I have a pretty good understanding of the history and culture and politics of most European nations, but I have to admit that Spain and Portugal are still a bit of a mystery to me. I've been to both nations and I enjoyed my time there, and my Spanish is pretty good. I've studied the rudiments of the history of both Spain and Portugal, but somehow I haven't developed the level of understanding that I have of most European nations.

The "Jew-hater" part of this discussion got tiresome, but maybe a thread on Spain is a good place for it. After all, Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism. There was a strong Jewish presence in Spain from before the time of Christ, and it appears that Jews prospered and lived quite peacefully for much of the time until Ferdinand and Isabella expelled or converted all the Jews of Spain in 1492. But there are still many vestiges of Judaism in the culture and language of Spain - ever wonder why Saturday is called "Sabado" in Spanish?

There were times when Spain was very powerful and prosperous, but the decline of Spain began with the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588, and then the loss to the U.S. in the Spanish America War in 1898. I get the impression that things went downhill quickly in the 1900s. Although Spain had a democratic government in the early 20th century, the economy was weak and there was strong opposition to the Spanish Republic. Franco offered power and prosperity and a return to monarchy, and he had a high level of popularity. In the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), Franco prevailed. He was supported by Italy and Germany, and by the ultra-conservative Catholic Opus Dei organization. He was opposed by the Soviet Union and the International Brigades, but most other nations remained neutral and ignored Franco's human rights atrocities. He ruled over Spain as a military dictator for 36 years from 1939 until his death in 1975. During his rule, Spain became a modern nation and a member of NATO.

In the first post of this thread, Geoff Lawes expresses support of a proposed UK parliamentary resolution that honors the International Brigades. I highly respect what the International Brigades attempted to do, but I'm not so sure that such a resolution is a good idea, all these years later. The wounds of that time of conflict have mostly healed, but I'm afraid that such a resolution would only serve to open old wounds.

I admire the idealism of young people who went to Spain from all over the world to join the International Brigades; but they were untrained, unorganized, and and ineffective. Spain has been free from Franco's rule since 1975, but there is still much that divides the country. How will honoring the Brigades serve to preserve the unity and peace of Spain? I tend to err on the side of caution - what good would such a resolution accomplish?

I asked Greg a number of questions. The questions require an educated opinion, not a right or wrong answer. But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.
  • To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco?
    To a great extent, to the point where many considered the members of the International Brigades to be "dupes" of the Soviets (remember when the term "Soviet dupe" was used often?).
  • Was it fear of Communism that was the primary reason for the U.S. support of Franco?
    I think so - there was a great fear of Communism in the U.S. from the 1930s to the time of Reagan. Anybody who was opposed to Communism, was considered to be a friend of the U.S.
  • Was it the fact that Franco provided military bases to the U.S. after the Spanish Civil War? Why in the world would the U.S. be friendly to a dictator like Franco?
    Torrejón Air Base and Naval Station Rota and other bases were hugely important to the United States during the Cold War, making it unlikely that the U.S. would speak out against Franco's regime - even though his human rights abuses were well known.

But no, I still can't say I understand Spain.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 AM

The Jew-hater part of this discussion is more than tiresome. It is offensive, abusive and defamatory. The people who are targeted here are very far from being Jew haters. Jim can speak for himself, but I have worked for decades in multiracial communities and have confronted racism every single time I've come across it, often risking my own wellbeing to do so. Both Jim and I are staunch defenders of the right of Jewish people to live in peace without harassment, we abhor antisemitism and we know precisely what it is and what it isn't, unlike Keith, Teribus and bobad, who pursue a pro-Israeli regime agenda regardless of its behaviour. We have both stated these things many times. It's my view that the people who most threaten that aspiration for Jewish people are, by dint of their behaviour, the leaders of Israel and their supporters and lobbyists in western countries. Jim and I have been called Jew-haters for saying that. That is not "tiresome," Joe. That is plain wrong and the fact that the remark has been allowed to stand on this forum is a disgrace. A firm hand taken by moderators in stamping it out would see off most of the unpleasantness here. But you won't do it, oddly. Not often enough. Of course, this isn't my gig.

As for the US relationship with Franco, a murderous dictator, well the US always acts in what it perceives to be its own best interests. Nothing new about America-first Trumpism - it's just that he's decided to shout his version from the rooftops, that's all. There is a long and sorry history of the US propping up vicious dictators when it suits their cause, as well as their undermining democratically-elected left-wing governments. There is nothing unique or surprising in the relationship with Franco and you won't find any justification for his behaviour, either before, during or after the Civil War, by following that line of enquiry.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:00 AM

I asked Greg a number of questions. The questions require an educated opinion, not a right or wrong answer.

Surely, Joey, you wouldn't want to entertain the opinions of someone who you consider to have , quote, "a brain that is [not] in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea."

Bit of a combative personal attack, by the way, is it not, Joey?

But I digress. To continue:

But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.

I understood it perfectly well. What YOU apparently don't understand- or pretend not to understand to score points (The Professorial "You lose" comes t mind) is that these questions have been exhaustively discussed in many books on the subject of Franco, the Spanish Civil War, and U,S. history of the period - which literature you claim to have read. Thus it would rather appear that I have called YOUR bluff.

I really want to know the answer to my question, and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling .....

And since you have answered your own questions, your asking them in the first place was patent trolling; so you are really not so tired of the squabbling, are you?

Sad.







But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:13 AM

The Jew-hater part of this discussion is more than tiresome. It is offensive, abusive and defamatory.

Any comment on the usage of terms such as "Nazi", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist", "fascist" etc. which, if searched, appear with a far greater frequency than Jew hater? Or do you not consider these terms to be offensive, abusive and defamatory when used by you and your friends?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:36 AM

I totally agree with what Steve said about "Jew haters" and would only add that when these accusations come from someone who consistently links the actions of the State of Israel with The Jewish People as a whole, despite the clause in the European definition which clearly makes that "antisemitic" by definition, they move from being insulting to ridiculous.
This has now been compounded by the fact Bobad refuses top comment on the latest behavior of Israeli Regime in actually supporting antisemitic propaganda in Hungary because it serves their own political and personal interests to do so.   
According to Bobad, it is "Jew Hating" to mention that fact - utterly ludicrous
Back to Joe
"Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism."
Nonsense Joe - antisemitism is the oldest and most persistent for of cultural hatred - the use of The Jews as scapegoats has never altered or been "modernised" down the the centuries - in fact that which emerged in the 1930s was a return to the worst excess of antisemitism - the pogrommes, the ghettoisation, an eventually mass exterminatio carried out by the Nazis
This began long before The Spanish Civil War was twinkle in anybodies eyes
The International Brigades were a reaction to what was happening on the streets of Britain, not of Madrid - they were a fight against the rise of fascism that was being appeased by "democratic Governments" who regarded Hitler's behaviour not only acceptable, but welcome as long as it did not scare the British horses.
""Soviet dupe" was used often"
Yup - especially by such "democratic bodies as your own House Un-American Activities Committee
The Western economies taken a battering and the main victims (as usual) were the working families - many of the American and British People had taken heart from what happened in 1917 in Russia, when soldiers, workers and peasants got rid of their oppressors and given themselves a hope for a new future
That Stalin destroyed that hope is immaterial - the dream of change was planted into world thinking and might have been realised if, on the one hand, outside forces hadn't broken their necks trying to "Roll back the threat of Communism" and if Stalin, a failed priest and a lumpen peasant with a lumpen peasant's mentality, who had played virtually no part in Russian politics up to the point he seized power, had not deformed and corrupted the objectives of Socialism.
The description of Nazi Germany as "bulwark against Bolshevism" originated in the United States, I believe.
What Stalin did with his "Show Trials" in Moscow, McCarthy did in Moscow, and America's pouring burning petrol on Vietnamese Peasants and filling their lungs with carcinogenic chemicals for seven years ranks next to Stalin'e behaviour, with far less excuse.
Why was America friendly wit Franco?
Why were you friendly with Batista and Papa Doc and Marshall Kee and Papadopulis, and Pinochet - and every tinpot dictator you have embraced as your own right up to the present day - because it suits your philosophy and economic interests to be so - they are all natural developments of the present system in crisis.
America would rather have had Cuba as its open sewer, where Al Capone and his men went to launder money and watch Cuban girls being fucked by donkeys, than work with a leaded who gave the people the best health and education system in the world and held off the threat of invasion, assassination and for over half a century and avoid a return to the situation where six families owned most of the Country.
Please spare us the extremely partonising "Soviet dupes" bit - Capitalism has nothing to offer those who are not wealthy and privileged - it never has had.
The system that you Church had depended throughout its existence has had its day and there are strong signs that it is high time the Church itself went down the pan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:39 AM

""Nazi", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist", "fascist""
They've all been used in context and have been qualified by argument
You refuse to do so - your only criterion is "opposition to Israeli policy"
You have never once produced a single example of "Jew hating" anf d you never will
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 11:08 AM

By the way Bobad
I only have to put links up to two postings to confirm all those accusaions - those you dredged up from every single extremist "racist, bigoted Facist, Islamophobic site, from Muslim Watch to The White Supremacist to produce the largest collection of cut-n-pastes ever put up on this forum in order to prove that Muslims were "terrorist cultural degenerates" and had been as far back as Biblical times
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 12:16 PM

"Any comment on the usage of terms such as "Nazi", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist", "fascist" etc. which, if searched, appear with a far greater frequency than Jew hater? Or do you not consider these terms to be offensive, abusive and defamatory when used by you and your friends?"

Yeah, I have a comment. They can be offensive and abusive depending on the context in which they are used. They are seldom used here in a context in which there isn't some baiting going on from both sides of the squabble. Defamatory? Only if they are untrue. You don't defame someone by telling it like it is, unhelpful though it might be. The reason they appear far more frequently than Jew hater is that the latter is USED by you alone. Jew hater is always defamatory here because it is never true, not in the remotest way. Significantly, it is never USED by anyone else except you. You seem very slow to pick up on that important point, which is a shame, as it really ought to stay your typing finger. When you call people Jew haters you are entirely on your own. On the other hand, bigotry is on show with disappointing frequency here in a number of contexts. It may not help much to point it out when it shows its ugly face but I think it's OK to not let it pass. Naturally, you won't agree as you never see it in yourself. That's your personal tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 12:26 PM

And now, back to the original purpose of this thread, to whit:

"commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism."


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:18 PM

Goddam. Look at that. Greg F actually posted something in a thread that was actually about the topic of discussion....not that he actually had an opinion of his own to express on the matter, but he did actually copy-paste something that pertained to the topic.
Attaboy, Greggy!

And Greggy, if you copy-paste what I say, be careful how you excerpt it. What I said was this: You have failed to demonstrate to us that you have a brain that is in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea.

You still have the opportunity to demonstrate otherwise. And if you do take the risk and post an intelligent thought, I promise that we will all be duly impressed. But for some crazy reason, you spend years at a discussion forum and do your best to avoid actually contributing to the discussions. The best I can figure is that you're here to do battle, but you don't want to expose yourself to attack by actually expressing an opinion. It's an interesting tactic, but I think it's basically an act of cowardice.




As for you who are so annoyed at being called Jew-haters, let me say this: If you've been called a Jew-hater, you probably are a Jew-hater. And maybe it's a worthwhile reminder that you need to reassess your opinion about Israel. Once upon a time, when the Exodus book and movie were still fresh in people's minds and Israel had a Labor Party government, the Israelis were the darlings of the American and European Left.

But then came the Palestinian Question and a series of Likud governments, and supporting Israel became downright unfashionable among the American and European Left. I started to hear leftists say really nasty things about Israel and Israelis. They still feel a little guilty that their opposition to Israel might be seen as antisemitic, but they cover that up with platitudes and denials.

The horrible truth is that Israel is a lovely country, and the Israelis have worked wonders with land that was once considered worthless. The Israeli people are friendly and tend to be well-educated, and they tend toward liberal political perspectives and maybe even pacifism.

But Israel confronts an impossible situation, and there is no solution in sight. It's clear that the Israelis have a right to be where they are; but it's also clear that the Palestinians also have a right to be there - and to share in the prosperity of Israel. But they don't trust each other, so they can't live together and they each do really awful things in an attempt to protect their own legitimate interests.

I hope that one day there will be a solution, but I don't know what that solution will be. In the meantime, liberals will continue to say things that are really hurtful and unfair to Israelis - and to Jews in general.

The situation in Israel is still unresolved, and seems to be impossible. There was a situation in Ireland that also seemed impossible, but it now seems to have been resolved. Still, the wounds are there, and it wouldn't take much provocation to reopen those wounds.

The situation in Spain more-or-less resolved itself with the death of Franco, but not really. Separatist movements keep arising in Spain, and the country could fall apart at any moment. Support of the International Brigades could serve to reopen wounds, so I think the proposed UK resolution is not a good idea.

But anyhow, if somebody calls you a Jew-hater, take the opportunity to think about it. There may be truth in the allegation. And in the meantime, be aware that many of us consider the years-long Mudcat Jew-hater debate to be tiresome, and we wish it wouldn't interfere with civil discussion here.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:48 PM

"There may be truth in the allegation. "
And if you think it's true ou have at the very least to produce a scrap of evidence indicating it is true
That is one appalling thing t say Joe - without evidence
No wonder our church is in the sorry state it is if that is your idea of Christian thinking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:51 PM

Maybe the Magdelene Nuns who describd their victims as "the sweepings of the street" were speaking the truth - waddya think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:33 PM

What an utter arsehole you are, Joe Offer. You are completely out of your depth in this conversation. And let me tell you something for nothing. Being called an utter arsehole is ten times milder than being called a Jew-hater when you've spent your life fighting racism. If your church doesn't do confessions until Monday, then make sure you don't get run over by a bus until then. How dare you suggest that people you don't know are Jew-haters. Go to hell, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:53 PM

Joey, after all the confrontational, irrelevant, personal attack bullshit you've posted on this thread, what gives you the impression I give two shits what you think?

My quotations of your statements were accurate.

The best I can figure is that you're here to do battle, but you don't want to expose yourself to attack by actually expressing an opinion.

Well, you figure wrong. And if you actually bother to look before flapping your jaw, you will see that I have often expressed an opinion about a great deal of things. Your problem is that you don't like those opinions. As for "being here to do battle" lets discuss the obvious trolling you've done on this thread and elsewhere.



As for acts of cowardice, lets talk about your hiding behind moderator status to post exactly what you most complain about what others post.

And if you do take the risk and post an intelligent thought

An intelligent thought on the order of "Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism" perhaps?

Or "If you've been called a Jew-hater, you probably are a Jew-hater.

Give us all a fucking break.

I promise that we will all be duly impressed.

Who the fuck are "WE", Joey?

Attaboy, Greggy!

Fuck off, Joey.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 05:22 PM

One assumes that this thread won't survive the appalling turn it's just taken. I can't believe that a man who has been a pillar of strength on this forum for years is behaving like this. It seems to have been going this way for several days. Who'd have thought that he'd get into bed with bobad? Unbelievable.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM

I'm afraid that the truth hurts gang, its about time your self righteous ranting was put into perspective.
Jim is a hater of everything and everybody except those who share his views formulated in the 1930's and long since found wanting.

We inhabit what could be a brave new world, the establishment is crumbling, old ideologies have been proved ineffective, old remedies no longer fit for purpose.......maybe at last we will accept unity, think deeply about moral issues, perhaps rediscover theology and reject crass materialism.......Not while Steve and Jim are steering the ship.

It took guts for Joe to take on the bullies, for that is what you are, childish bullies who NEVER question your ideologies, they are set in stone.....real liberalism could never survive in the mythical neverland that you people inhabit.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM

Think about what I said about that "Jew-hater" thing again. Nobody in this life comes out completely pure, or completely right. Maybe it's a good idea to acknowledge our own imperfections.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:12 PM

Oh, don't you worry, Joe. I've been thinking about it for the last hour. And what I think is that you have sided with the very worst troll on this forum (would you like me to tell the forum what you've told me about him in your private messages?) in order to call lifelong fighters against all forms of racism Jew-haters. You have an incredibly facile and superficial understanding of the Arab/Israeli conflict, clearly based on ignorance, that you should be embarrassed to air. And, comically, though I'm hardly laughing, you now have akenaton in bed with you. You must be feeling really happy tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:21 PM

Bravo Joe, it's about time someone else has the courage to call a spade a spade.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:31 PM

Oh, but he hasn't, boobs. Like most cowards he's peppered his smears with quite a few "probablies." He is insecure in his knowledge of the subjects he's prattling about and, unlike you, he steers clear of spade-a-spade certainties. I suppose, unlike you, he's sensible enough to avoid overt bigotry. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:38 PM

There are no certainties, Steve. Once you've been able to learn that lesson, you've taken a big step.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:40 PM

Maybe it's a good idea to acknowledge our own imperfections.

Yeah, give it a try yourself, Joey.

Can we get a responsible moderator to shut down this Offer guy?- why anyone have to put up with his personal attacks, name calling, combative BS and trollism?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:46 PM

Agreed, Greg. And don't even think you can rise to the ranks of being a believable patronising bastard, Joe. You are nowhere near.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM

Should've called him "Grasshopper" or "my son" instead of "Steve" to reinforce that stench of assumed superiority.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:02 PM

I invite you to explain that post, Jeri. Could be that I'm going through a thick phase tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

"Stench of assumed superiority"?

Surely you meant to apply that to Joey O.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM

You've confused us, Jeri. But we can probably live with it. 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM

I attempted to weigh in much earlier in the thread strictly to the OP. I volunteered first a witticism, a quote from a movie, then a more thought out response, mentioning that one would hope that those with anti-fascist proclivities don't have to go eighty years in the past for their self praise.
Anyhow, there was some back-and-forth going on that seemed more repetitive than productive between the usual suspects. I didn't contribute other than to ask if anyone had figured out my first post "Mary McGregor!" Steve Shaw replied with a hostile and slightly condescending post which I took as complimentary (In the first place he bothered to respond and he referred to my writing as 'dense').
Then those posts disappeared. They were 'moderated' with all the dexterity of Gumby Theatre. They had been a legitimate part of the thread and not abusive.
I was unaware of other disappearances but I suppose that some of the personal attacks may have been eliminated.
Then I saw that some of the posters who have, in other threads, gone severely Israel-averse were themselves bringing up Jews in this thread (among themselves) in a manner of 'how dare others accuse us of being anti-Semitic when our forefathers were fighting the fascists for them.' It was too too much like apprecisating the victims, the dead victims, while ignoring their living descendants. Including the phrase "their Jews are not my Jews".
This is an indicator of a manner of thinking that is more ideological than thoughtful. As a friend told me : "having ideas is the opposite of ideological- then the ideas have YOU".
In general, in Mudcat, over many years I have actually avoided accusing ANYONE of antisemitism, until recently, and when I ventured forth, I saved that for one person only, although there are probably a couple more who deserve the term, such as it is. Just as the phrase "it's not personal" invariably means that it IS personal, the ones who most blatantly beat their own breasts as to their innocence are the most likely to possess the toxoplasmosis of bias.
I actually don't think of anyone as a "Jew-hater". It's not a useful term to use in these threads. I am not a mind reader. I think most of the hate in these threads is defensive in nature, folks saving face as their precious words are mocked and their motives denigrated. To me that does not advance a position or achieve progress in understanding a theme. I have resurrected a far older term from the past: "Jew baiter". This applies to certain people who go pre-emptive on terms that we all know will draw fire from the usual subjects. I have long since decided that I get to decide what I will be drawn by.
There is also a distinction to be made between fascists and Nazis. The fascists under Mussolini for example were great believers in totalitarianism, and their greatness and their right of dominance over other cultures. The Nazis in Germany were race-based persecutors above all else. This was science to them. It wasn't until Fascist Italy was occupied by Nazi Germans that Italian Jews were sent to Concentration Camps. The Nazis were going to eliminate ALL Jews and then build museums about the extinct race, where they got to define everything about them. Sort of like when some members of this thread thought that the living Jews had been moderated out. Then it was time to talk about them. Those "Jews are not my Jews". Snarky and cowardly at the same time.

Some of the anti-semitism derives from a good Soviet background: When Israel was a young up-and-coming state of people who perceived themselves as 'young pioneers' and came from organizations with names like "Bund" and who lived in Socialist enclaves called kibbutzim they garnered plenty of pinko love. The Soviet Union was the first country to formally recognize Medinat Israel. I remember an Arab speaker at the United Nations mentioning this with bittersweet irony during the televised U.N. hearings just after the Six-Day War.
But over time Israelis of the Jewish and Muslim and Christian persuasion have avoided the societal meltdowns of their neighbors and actually seen their economic conditions improve. They have achieved multi-party multi-ethnic multi-racial society and gone, sigh, capitalist in a big way. Israel is a beacon of entrepreneurial creativity in a region that is barren by comparison.
But other Middle Eastern countries have not. They still insist on forming organizations with names that include the words 'liberation' and 'front'. This makes certain knee-jerk would-be socialists, well, jerk their knees. For them time does not move on. They see multi-racial Israel and call it racist. They see mono-cultural countries all around her, seeking to become MORE mono-cultural, and say nothing. How powerful words are when they are used as cover: "liberation front" "hearts and minds" "shock and awe" "patriot act" "freedom fries" "dialectical materialism". It has been ever thus.

By the way, if there IS a moderator worthy of the name, what about that totally unrelated message from Vashta Nerada Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM
It has no reason to be in this thread. It deserves its own thread if the poster so desires. That would be an elimination which would enhance this thread.

And still, no bites on "Mary McGregor!" ?????


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:41 PM

You don't deserve bites. You talk utter rubbish. Try to engage with the real world is my advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:10 PM

ANYWAY - sod this! I spend at least a week a year in Spain, specifically Andalucía, and I always go when it's bloody hot. I'll be off there soon but you won't know when. I'll report back. Andalucía is a wonderful leftie part of Spain. I'll see no tourists for a week, I'll see no policemen and I will not be ripped off anywhere I go. It'll be village bars, ice-cold Cruzcampo and local wine and tapas every night, unless I decide to fire up the barbie with the exceptional fare I can buy at the superb indoor market in Almería. We'll stop there shortly after we get off the plane. We'll buy a massive tub of olives, a kilo or two of raf tomatoes and a ton of the best fresh fish you can buy anywhere. There's a brilliant little cafe just outside the market where we will have several coffees and a massive pile of churros for just a euro or three. Sod the calories! I will spend a lot less than if I was staying at home. A good few years ago I spent time in northern Spain. I reckon that the populace in Castile-León would have El Caudillo back in a heartbeat. There's no accounting for taste.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:26 PM

Good post Robomatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:33 PM

I forgot to mention the several tons of picota cherries that I'll buy so that I can sit under the stars gorging myself in a most unadvisable manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:56 PM

There's an amazing ceramics factory in Alhabia, a couple of miles from where we stay. Our house is full of their colourful stuff. We love it! Our favourite evening bar is in Huecija, a half-hour walk away, though we always do a ritual walk from Padules to Almócita too, where we can sit under the shade of the trees and reward ourselves with ice-cold Cruzcampo. I think that Almócita is one of my favourite places on earth. A few miles away there's a gorgeous outdoor pool at Ohanes where Mrs Steve and my sister love to swim, I can doze under the trees and where, after the exertions of the day, we can consume the superb Alhambra beer, ice-cold of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 09:32 PM

Robomatic said a lot of things that were important, but I'd like to focus on just one: I actually don't think of anyone as a "Jew-hater". (although I would have put the period inside the quotation marks - is that a European thing?)

But really, I believe that there is not one single "Jew-hater" among the regulars here at Mudcat. We've have a few true bigots stop in here now and then, and we've usually deleted their remarks. But most of the people here, both liberal and conservative, are pretty good people - I think that covers the spectrum from Akenaton to Greg_F to Steve Shaw, and most of the others. I called Bobad "evil," but I'm not sure I truly believe that.

Still, you are an interesting lot to watch. It bothers me to accept it, but I guess I have to admit that those who participate in Internet discussions tend toward absolutism. They stick to a point of view, and they have a very difficult time accepting other positions.

As for me, I tend to follow my patron saints:

  • Mad Magazine's Alfred E. Neuman, whose slogan is "What? Me Worry?"
  • Charlie Brown, who is infamous for being wishy-washy.

    And another aphorism that Charlie Brown constantly hears is this: "You're a blockhead, Charlie Brown" - wise words, indeed.
    And from that I learn that when Steve Shaw calls me a "patronizing bastard," that's his opinion - and he has a right to it. I never did figure out what or whom Jeri is talking about with her "stench of assumed superiority," but whatever.


Both of my patron saints teach me a lot of things, but their primary lesson is this: humility. And from that, I derived this eternal truth: I have a right to my opinion, but I do not have a right to have my opinion prevail. That being the case, I'm best off listening to all parties and trying to find some sort of common ground that will approach satisfaction for everybody. I will never find the perfect answer, so I'm best off exchanging ideas with other people and seeing what we can work out together.

Now, I realize that this will not be satisfactory to those of you who are convinced that you always know the Truth, but I think we're better off exchanging ideas and information and coming up with something together.

If that's being a "patronizing bastard," so be it. Speaking up for pacifism in this bunch, is a tough act.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 09:50 PM

Make your mind up. Decide for yourself who's a Jew-hater and who isn't. You are very inconsistent. And stand on your own two feet and leave your patron saints behind. They won't even notice you've dropped them and you won't even notice they've gone. In the words of Beethoven, o man, help yourself. And there is no absolutism here. Every fair-minded poster here is full of doubt. You can't see it because you have your crutch of religion to afford you a fake certainty, and you can't take others' expressions of demurral. You mistake robust challenge for absolutism, when, all the time, it's you who's the absolutist. Well, probably. Get that?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM

OK, Stevie, I've decided, but I thought I already said it. Nobody here is a Jew-hater, so all that name-calling is just fluff. Don't pay it no nevermind, and get on to discussing interesting things instead of all this petty squabbling.

You talk of my "crutch of religion to afford [me] a fake certainty" - and yet I'm the one saying there IS no certainty.

Guess I gotta go figure that one out....

-Joe Offer-

P.S. And hey, I like my friggin' patron saints. They inspire me. I can think of none better than Charlie Brown and Alfred E. Neuman. I think they're a very Catholic sort of patron saints.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM

HUMILITY Joey?? You? After all your foregoing postings??

It is to laugh. Or, possibly, puke.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:16 PM

Oh, Greggy, we could talk about the International Brigades, the subject of this thread. Do you have an opinion on the subject, Greggy? We're all waiting with bated breath to hear what you have to say. I beg for enlightenment.

Yes, I know that Wikipedia says this: "The International Brigades (Spanish: Brigadas Internacionales) were paramilitary units set up by the Communist International to assist the Popular Front government of the Second Spanish Republic during the Spanish Civil War. The organisation existed for two years, from 1936 until 1938. It is estimated that during the entire war, between 32,000 and 35,000 members served in the International Brigades, including 15,000 who died in combat; however there were never more than 20,000 brigade members present on the front line at one time."

I can read quite well. I learned how in Catholic school, although Steve Shaw probably thinks that could not possibly be satisfactory.

But note that fact: "the International Brigades were paramilitary units set up by the Communist International."

That gets me nervous on two fronts:

  • "Paramilitary" troops make me even more nervous than "military" troops do.
  • They were set up by COMINTERN, which I learned from youth was an entity set up for the purpose of World Domination. What I heard as a youth may or may not be completely true, but I haven't really seen many good examples of Communism striving toward self-determination and individual rights - and that also makes me nervous.


So, Greggy, what do you know about the International Brigades, and what do you think of them? I'm still working really hard to encourage you to disprove this peabrain thing....

I really, honestly, can't figure out why you are so averse to expressing an actual opinion on the issues discussed in our threads.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:32 AM

I see that three people got all upset about my suggestion that "Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism." I can't understand why that was so upsetting.

Read the entire passage that I wrote:
    After all, Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism. There was a strong Jewish presence in Spain from before the time of Christ, and it appears that Jews prospered and lived quite peacefully for much of the time until Ferdinand and Isabella expelled or converted all the Jews of Spain in 1492. But there are still many vestiges of Judaism in the culture and language of Spain - ever wonder why Saturday is called "Sabado" in Spanish?


It's my understanding that the Jewish community in Spain in 1492 was large, and it was well-integrated into Spanish society and quite prosperous. It seems to me that it was a situation very similar to Germany of the 1930s. There were pogroms and persecutions throughout the history of Judaism, but I think that 1492 Spain was the first time that all Jews were cleansed from a nation - all at the same time. Please note that I said 1492, not the 1930s. Perhaps you question my use of the word "modern" for 1492, but many "modern" European languages passed from "middle" to "modern" at just about that time.

Is it so appalling that I would say such a thing? If so, please explain why.

Damn. I can't figure you guys out.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:51 AM

Apparently Spain has a program to offer citizenship to Sephardic Jews.

The article is dated and I don't know how one proves descent. I believe I recall that many Jews exiled from Spain went to Turkey. And of course the first Jewish justice on the U.S. Supreme Court was a Sephardi, and maybe the first hispanic as well- Benjamin Cardozo.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:08 AM

Interesting piece, Robomatic. This excerpt described the 1492 debacle very well:
    Jews prospered in medieval Spain, under Muslim and Christian rule. But that changed in 1492, when the Catholic monarchs, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, expelled them. Some 300,000 Jews — up to a quarter of the Spanish population — had to convert to Catholicism or flee Spain, or were killed in the Spanish Inquisition.


A quarter of the population expelled or forced to convert. Makes one wonder why anyone would honor Ferdinand and Isabella, doesn't it?

But that's not all. The Muslim Moors had lived in Spain since 700 AD, and had made a remarkable contribution to the culture and history of Spain. They were expelled in 1492, also. Portugal also shows all sorts of evidence of the wonderful cultural and artistic influence of the Moors.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:20 AM

Two great posts from Robomatic and Joe, all from the wreckage created earlier.

See what happens when intelligent and open minded people start to influence the threads here.....the sun comes out. All is laid bare.

Live and learn you cheese eating ideologues!!   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:34 AM

"Once you've been able to learn that lesson, you've taken a big step."
Sound like a priest forgiving an abuse victim absolution for their sins
Sorry Joe - this outrageous behaviour comes worse when it comes from someone you formerly respected.
I have made this offer to all the posters and I now make it to you (I never believed I would ever have to
If you can provide one single shred of evidence of my hating Jews - ever - I will make a generous donation to any named charity - even Opus Dei, if that is your choice
Bobad, Akenaton, Robo - and now Joe Offer
Trump certainly has breathed new life into the Klan
Utterly sickening
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM

Jim, I think maybe you're not paying attention to what I wrote. Your reaction is way out of balance with what I've been saying. Same with your outrage at my saying that 1492 Spain may well have been the birthplace of modern antisemitism. It is impossible to have an attitude toward Israel that is fair and acceptable to all sides, since both the Israelis and the Palestinians are completely right and completely at odds with each other. No matter what you say, somebody is going to be able to call you a Jew-hater.
That being the case, I think it's best not to argue about it, and to realize that you cannot possibly have an attitude that completely fair and acceptable to all sides. There simply is no right answer to this question right now.
I really don't mean to cause offense - I just want to see people stop beating up on each other. I've said it in this and in other situations - there are no right answers, so all we do is try our best.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:50 AM

By the way Joe - nobody is "upset" at your suggestion about Spain - that is what the team you have just joined do - deliberately misinterpret what had been written
How about responding to what has been written rather than distoorting tit
"Joey O."
Might be an idea to drop the name-calling Steve - don't sink to their level
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 04:34 AM

Joe says:

"I see that three people got all upset about my suggestion that "Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism." I can't understand why that was so upsetting."

Possibly because other people know that there was anti-semitism in England from at least the twelfth century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_United_Kingdom


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 04:44 AM

"It is impossible to have an attitude toward Israel that is fair and acceptable to all sides"
Yes it is Joe - that's why the reasonable members of this planet are organising a boycott to stop what is happening to the Palestinian people
It is like saying that is impossible to have a reasonable attitude that is acceptable to both sides when Nazism was on the rise in Germany
I don't wish to appease both sides i I want tne killing and the ethnic cleansing in this genocidal war to stop
You people have reduced this conflict to the Israeli regime and their victims - not the mass of humanity of whatever religious persuasion or ethnic make up who occupy the area - the Israeli and the Palestinian people.
Like all wars, it's the politicians who send the troops into battle and the people who die - you judge the conflict on its ethical merits.
You may not have meant to cause offence , but by Christ, you most certainly have
You opened up by blamming the "liberals" for slinging the term "Jew Hater " about
You went on to say you could find no other examples
When they were listed for you, you shrugged and minimised the term into silliness or some such phrase and absolved the main culprit by sayin he only picked up the term from someone else
Nowhere do I see an apology for your behaviour or a withdrawal od your claims
You have joined the troll choir and added that I can't be fair
You don't hide your light under a bushel - do you
To say I am disappointed would eb to understate my feelings
My offer stands to you as it does to all the others
Name your charity
I really have had a bellyful of the dishonesty that has become a permanent part of these discussions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 04:46 AM

You said my suggestion that 1492 Spain was the birthplace of modern antisemitism was nonsense, Jim. Steve and Greg were far less polite about it. And all 3 of you made multiple derisive generalizations about my religious affiliation.
Just how SHOULD I respond, Jim?
When Stevie and Greggy are being small-minded, the use of diminutive seems appropriate. I suppose I could use the term asshole, but I was trying to refrain.
Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 04:54 AM

"You said my suggestion that 1492 Spain was the birthplace of modern antisemitism was nonsense, Jim."
A staement made calmly without vehemence of any sort and one I would have mede to a fried in a friendly discussion (which I thought I was doing)
You respond by pointing out where I was wrong.
"When Stevie and Greggy are being small-minded, the use of diminutive seems appropriate"
You were the one who were the reason for most of us dropping the practice when you rightly pointed out i was childish - it worked with all but Teribus, who has little else to offer
Do what I say, not what I do, it seems
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:18 AM

By the way - my point about the silly names was addressed to Steve, not you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:17 AM

I haven't called anyone a name in this set of exchanges I don't think, Jim, apart from angrily calling Joe a name ten times milder than Jew hater. Joe, I have not expressed any opinion about antisemitism in Spain. Glad to put you right on that, so leave out the invective on that score, eh? As for reading, I also learned to read in Catholic schools and found that aspect at least of my education perfectly satisfactory. If you want to recivilise this place this morning and calm the waters, I suggest that you drop the little sideswipes.

You could use those reading skills of yours to hone your knowledge of the Middle East. You have some puzzling opinions on the situation in Israel that suggest gaps in your understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM

"I haven't called anyone a name in this set of exchanges "
Sorry Steve- that should have been Greg L a heat-of-the-moment attempt so stop this degenerating into a melee - my apologies
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: sapper82
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM

But what did the International Brigades actually achieve?
First, the achieved the prolongation of a nasty, brutal war.
Second, by that first achievement they ensured the deepening of an intense enmity that still lasts to this day.
Third, They provided a training ground for the German National Socialists to home their battle plans, including the use of air power.
Fourth, they ensured that a rival socialist group, the Marxist/Stalinist communists, would become defined as the de facto opposition to National Socialism.
Fifth, they created a situation where the Moscow inspired Commissars were, effectively, given a free hand to kill off anyone who appeared to offer a threat to the supremacy of Moscow. It is said that the Commissars in Spain killed more Italian Communists than Mussolini himself.

I do not say the above to denigrate the undoubted courage, bravery and determination of those men and women who made up the International Brigades, but merely to suggest that, by naively interfering in a foreign war, they may have made matters worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:14 AM

Well if some or all of what you say is partly or wholly true you are talking about unintended consequences that had been unpredictable, which applies to all conflicts when you think about it, and I think "naive" is a bit strong. Whatever bad things were unintentionally exacerbated by the International Brigades, they have left us an enduring legacy, as with the Cable Street anti-Mosley protest, of ordinary working people showing that they are not prepared to tolerate fascism. A pretty big positive, I'd say.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 08:29 AM

"But what did the International Brigades actually achieve?"
If people did nothing on the basis of what they might or might not achieve the bad guys would win every time
They tried and failed - better than not trying
I know where my respect goes.
This "foreign war" bit really gets me
The matter only arises when we as a nation has nothing to gain from getting involved
As far as the people who participated were concerned, it was a war against fascism - whether that particular fight was won or lost once and for all can be judged by what's happping on the streets of the US and Britain today
Maybe it's time to turn and look the other way again
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-vote-hate-crime-rise-100-per-cent-england-wales-police-figures-new-racism-eu-a7580516.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:05 AM

I really don't mean to cause offense

Well then, Joey, YOU LOSE.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:40 AM

Perhaps if Sapper 82 clarified his position we might cut to the case
Can we assume that if Germany had stuck to Czechoslovakia, Poland and the Jews that could still have been regarded as "a foreign war" we need not have bothered and stayed at home safe in our beds- do I have that riht?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 11:04 AM

I'd planned on watching a war movie* last night, but this thread was far too entertaining...





[* "There Be Dragons" (2011) Director: Roland Joffé

Arising out of the horror of the Spanish Civil War, a candidate for canonization is investigated by a journalist who discovers his own estranged father had a deep, dark and devastating connection to the saint's life.

mixed reviews - possibly a boring plodder of a film - 2 versions, one a shorter re-edited USA re-release..

This thread put me in mind to find it again before it goes off Amazon Prime streaming..

Oh well.. maybe next weekend....]


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 12:14 PM

A wonderful movie Chanel I just discovered (Talking Pictures) has The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp (a must for our flag-waggers) and The Front Page later this week
Things is lookin' up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM

I watched a 1980s re run of Blimp at an Arts cinema in my 20s and thought it was brilliant..


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM

"Do what I say, not what I do, it seems" -Jim Carroll

Absolutely, Jim that's Joe in a nutshell: complaining when others do the exact same thing he gets away with.

If you recall, he's the one that initiated the current bout of name-calling.

And his rationale: "Just how SHOULD I respond, Jim?"


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:08 PM

""Just how SHOULD I respond, Jim?""
I think you've made your point excellently
I do love the silences when you ask a question - don't you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:12 PM

I do love the silences when you ask a question - don't you

Perhaps I should repeatedly taunt him with "Why don't you answer the question??"


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:19 PM

Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126
only 25 MPs have signed so far


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM

You got one helluva nerve, Geoff, trying to get this thread back on track like that.

Maybe Joe won't stick his two cents' worth in and derail it again- one can only hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 02:02 PM

Jim:

You have trotted out the following on many occasions in multiple threads like it has some meaning:

I have made this offer to all the posters and I now make it to you (I never believed I would ever have to
If you can provide one single shred of evidence of my hating Jews - ever - I will make a generous donation to any named charity - even Opus Dei, if that is your choice
Bobad, Akenaton, Robo - and now Joe Offer


1) I have confined my comments to your posts. I am not a mind reader. And I have not called you a 'hater' and my thoughts on the matter are printed in my longish post above, which I doubt you read through. As I've mentioned in another forum, you don't respond to my posts so much as repeat yourself in a thrown-spaghetti-against-the-wall fashion.
2) Your post is reminiscent of the holocaust deniers who offered a large sum of money to anyone who could 'prove' that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. I am not calling you a Holocaust denier, I'm just sayin'...
3) I do not hate you and my emotional response to you is not conditioned on whether or not I am Jewish. You're just this name I know in this restricted agora of digital technology. You appear to have a sense of humor which is a plus. But this is not an example of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 02:11 PM

Steve Shaw you writted:

I haven't called anyone a name in this set of exchanges I don't think, Jim,

I have to go by my memory here, you wrote a short piece in this thread where you combined my moniker with someone else's in a sort of humorous manner. You proposed using it as a substitute for my forum name (I took it as a compliment, BTW). But then the anonymous mod took out your post and some of mine.

Cheer up, you've got all day!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 02:31 PM

In my lexicon "Jew hater" and "anti-Semite" are synonymous" and applies to anyone making anti-Semitic statements, examples of which can be found in the commonly accepted Working Definition of Antisemitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:04 PM

And the last itmen thyere is that you don't blame the Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government]
You do this constantly by accusing every single critic i Israel of antisemitism
Until you stop this you have no grounds for accusing anyboy of antisemitism
The fact that it as an automatic nknee jerk response to criticism of their policy makes any definition workable - if Israel can't play by the rules why should anybody else
Even their Minister of Justice has declared that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel - that makes her an antisemite.
"And I have not called you a 'hater' "
#No Robo - you haven't had tha balls to - but you have oersistently made it clear by your remarks that you belive I am.
But your ****** money where your mouth is, and if you prove your point I'm happy to make good my promise
This promise ahs been running for several years now - just as you and your type have been every time you are challenged to produce an honest answer
How long do you want me to hold my breath?
All it takes is one single sentence - one example of my denigrating the Jewish people
Clock's ticking.........!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM

Jim writted:
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"And I have not called you a 'hater' "
#No Robo - you haven't had tha balls to - but you have oersistently made it clear by your remarks that you belive I am.
But your ****** money where your mouth is, and if you prove your point I'm happy to make good my promise This promise ahs been running for several years now - just as you and your type have been every time you are challenged to produce an honest answer
How long do you want me to hold my breath?

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"By their works you shall know them."

(Time to go back to using spell check my brother)


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:59 PM

bobad:

Your link to the above document defining anti-semitism is a new one for me. I believe you quoted from it in the 'Anti-Semitism' thread of a couple months back. But I don't recall a link to the document itself. Looks like a good study item for me.

For me there is a difference between "Jew-hater" and "Anti-semite". "Jew-hater" is emotional and in your face. "Anti-semite" can be theoretical. It can be a tasteless joke.

I go back to when I was a student moving into a hispanic dorm. One of my new friends told me how if someone made a comment he didn't like about chicanos he checked to see if that person was smiling or not (neither of us were aware of the almost identical observation in The Virginian: "When you call me that, smile!"

"Anti-semite" can be genteel, suitable to a gentleman's club, spoken of with an aperitif in hand.

"Jew-hater" is street.

I think "Jew-baiter" is more appropriate to some of the folks in these threads. It's a technique to get your goat. The same folks are going not-so-subtly anti-Catholic on Joe for the same reason. In the meantime they beat their breasts about being called on their own proclivities. They can't help themselves. The source of their arguments are tired ideologies. And, in the case of this thread, finding relevance by piggy-backing onto AN EIGHTY YEAR OLD cause.


What is that old English expression that is getting bruited about nowadays? "Keep calm and carry on!"


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM

A quick show of hands should settle who is the"Jew Hater" here
Israel's leader has just changed his mind and ordered his ambassador to support Hungary's extreme right in its distribution of an anti-Semitic poster – Israel's policy is now openly anti-Semitic
Bobad supports them in this – do you condmn them Robo?
Yes or no will do nicely
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:43 PM

Robomatic is nobbut a skittish gadfly-type, Jim, with no understanding of the issues he's posting about. He has a touch of the balletic prima donna about him and he's a troll to boot. Ignore.

By the way, boobs, no definition, working, defunct or otherwise, has ever referred to the term Jew hater. That is entirely your term. And no-one else's. It's a shame how you can't see that it isolates you, even from your alleged allies, who are sensible enough to clench their buttocks and shut their mouths whenever you are stupid enough to use the term. You're on your own, aren't you. But you're just a bit too thick to notice. Hope this helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:44 PM

Bobad supports them in this

Fuck off arsehole!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:46 PM

Carroll supports neo-Nazi Jew haters.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:54 PM

Two exceptionally profound posts from boobs. Should suit the meretricious robocop down to the ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:07 PM

Oy! Lads!

This thread has bugger-all to do with Jews/Jew-Haters/Nazis et. al.


I know Joe and BuBo are hopeless, but can't the rest of youse put a sock in it???

And now, back to actual subect of the thread.....


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:17 PM


Bobad supports them in this – do you condmn them Robo?
Yes or no will do nicely
Jim Carroll


In other words: "Hop to it, Jew!" Do you even read your posts before you hit send?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:23 PM

fucking hopeless..................


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:30 PM

You are a prime contender for the award of prize of vacuous empty-headed twat of the year, robowhatevvah. Why don't you look stuff up before you post? Have you got Joe Offer syndrome?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:37 PM

I think it's kinda cool me being 1/4 jew...

The 4 quarters of my body can take it in turns in hating on each other, or being self hating... 😜



.. oh yeah.. the spanish civil war.. If I'd been a young idealistic intellectual leftie back then, I'd probably have liked to have volunteered...

...except for my flat feet... and I don't travel too well with my irritable bowels.. but nice idea though....


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:44 PM

You didn't get irritable bowels in those days. Irritable bowels is caused by weak beer, fish fingers and turkey twizzlers. And by not drinking enough builders' tea.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM

Two exceptionally profound posts from boobs.

Of course Shaw has no comment on the "Made-Up-Shit" lying post from his pal Carroll whose intent is to smear and Jew bait - two peas in a pod.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:23 PM

precisely, bobad.

And once more into the breach. . .


"MARY MCGREGOR!"


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:47 PM

Don't mess with their tutus...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:48 PM

I've asked you peole a question
All your infantile name calling does not change one iota the fat that this is what you people are supporting

The Times Tuesday, July 11th
ISRAEL BACKS HUNGARY'S 'ANTISEMITIC' POSTER AGAINST SOROS AFTER U-TURN
ISRAEL
Gregg Carlstrom Tel Aviv

Binyamin Netanyahu has overruled his ambassador and backed the right-wing Hungarian government's campaign against the Jewish billionaire George Soros.
Official posters denouncing Mr Soros have been described by Hungary's main Jewish organisation as antisemitic. Yossi Amrani, Israel's ambassador in Budapest, urged Viktor Orban, the prime minister, to remove them.
"Beyond political criticism of a certain person, the campaign not only evokes sad memories but al¬so sows hatred and fear," Mr Amrani said in a statement.
His bosses in Israel initially en¬dorsed the call, but later issued a clarification, saying that the Hungarian-born financier threatened democracy by funding charities critical of Mr Netanyahu.
Mr Orban's government has repeatedly attacked Mr Soros and is trying to close down a liberal university that he set up and funded. It has accused him of trying to flood Europe with immigrants.
It has paid for billboards across the country denouncing Mr Soros as a threat to national security. "Let's not allow Soros to have the last laugh," reads one, next to a photo of the smiling banker. The head of Hungary's Jewish community said that the billboards were antisemitic, while Human
Rights Watch compared them to Nazi propaganda, which often featured "the laughing Jew".
Mr Orban wrote a letter to Jewish leaders last week saying: "My duty is to defend our homeland and citizens."
Israel is normally quick to condemn antisemitism, but this time the government distanced itself from the ambassador's comments. "In no way was the statement meant to delegitimise criticism of George Soros, who continuously undermines Israel's democratically elected govern¬ments by funding organisations that defame the Jewish state," Emmanuel Nachson, a spokesman for the foreign ministry, said.
Mr Netanyahu has not appointed a foreign minister and holds the post himself. He is scheduled to meet Mr Orban in Hungary next week.
Israel and Hungary have both passed legislation that seeks to limit the influence of liberal charities such as those Mr Soros funds.
Last month Mr Orban praised Miklos Horthy, a Second World War-era Hungarian leader, as an "exceptional statesman". Admiral Horthy was a Nazi ally who passed a series of anti-Jewish laws.
Again, Mr Amrani protested, this time on Hungarian television, and several leading Israeli politicians urged Mr Netanyahu to cancel his visit. But the foreign ministry said it was satisfied with Hungary's clarification—that Mr Orban was only praising the "positive periods" in his predecessor's history, not the "negative periods".
Israel used to follow local Jewish communities in deciding whether to meet parties with dubious pasts. It kept its distance from the National Front in France because Jewish leaders shunned the group.
But Mr Netanyahu and his government have sought to build ties with far-right factions across Europe, viewing them as useful diplomatic allies.
Last year, the head of Austria's Freedom Party spent a week in Israel on an official visit. The Israeli foreign ministry officially boycotts the party, which was founded in 1956 by former Nazis.


You scumbags have no interest in the Jewish people - your concern is to protect the Israeli regime and their "neo-Nazi Jew hater" friends
Game, set and match, I think
I do hope you are following all this Joe and I trust you are gong to apologise - or not, as the case may be
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 08:47 PM

Acts of State may be debatable, controversial, or even wrong:

Eamon De Valera pays condolence call on German legation 1945

But as for JCarroll: the abuse tirade goes on: I consider:

"You scumbags have no interest in the Jewish people"
to be demonstrably false.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:50 PM

Golly, gee. I took a day off to go to Mass and a song circle, and look at all the responses I got. I even got a song written about me by some cowardly anonymous idiot who's afraid to give his/her name.

Here's Jim Carroll, proving that he actually may be a Jew-hater after all:
    "It is impossible to have an attitude toward Israel that is fair and acceptable to all sides"
    Yes it is Joe - that's why the reasonable members of this planet are organising a boycott to stop what is happening to the Palestinian people
    It is like saying that is impossible to have a reasonable attitude that is acceptable to both sides when Nazism was on the rise in Germany
    I don't wish to appease both sides i I want tne killing and the ethnic cleansing in this genocidal war to stop
    You people have reduced this conflict to the Israeli regime and their victims - not the mass of humanity of whatever religious persuasion or ethnic make up who occupy the area - the Israeli and the Palestinian people.
    Like all wars, it's the politicians who send the troops into battle and the people who die - you judge the conflict on its ethical merits.
    You may not have meant to cause offence , but by Christ, you most certainly have
    You opened up by blamming the "liberals" for slinging the term "Jew Hater " about
    You went on to say you could find no other examples
    When they were listed for you, you shrugged and minimised the term into silliness or some such phrase and absolved the main culprit by sayin he only picked up the term from someone else
    Nowhere do I see an apology for your behaviour or a withdrawal od your claims
    You have joined the troll choir and added that I can't be fair
    You don't hide your light under a bushel - do you
    To say I am disappointed would eb to understate my feelings
    My offer stands to you as it does to all the others
    Name your charity
    I really have had a bellyful of the dishonesty that has become a permanent part of these discussions
    Jim Carroll


Note how he compares the Israelis to Nazis. To compare Israel to Nazi Germany is well at the top of the scale of being egregiously offensive. It's just not something that civilized people do, Jim. Am I right in thinking that sort of anti-semitism could be considered a criminal offense in some countries?

But still, I don't actually believe Jim to be a Jew-hater. I just think he is so certain that there is no possibility that BOTH sides can be right, and BOTH sides need to compromise to accommodate their conflicting needs.

Note, however, Jim's annoying and simplistic habit of considering nations and churches and other entities as monolithic - completely ignoring the diversity of opinion and action that exists within every group. That monolithic viewpoint is the foundation of bigotry. Jim's a good guy and I think he should be smart enough to see beyond that.

In Israel, the nation's dealings with the Palestinian people is a very controversial issue that has not been resolved in the 70 years of the nation's history. A great many Israelis are very sympathetic to Palestinian concerns, but Jim's perspective allows them no voice.

Jim apparently has a dualistic mind that allows him to see only black and white, good and evil. That sort of dualism leads to trouble, since it does not allow for compromise, or for respect of opponents. I hope some day that Jim can develop a broader, more tolerant vision.

I'm a moderate, and I have a nasty habit of seeing many sides to almost every issue. That makes me insufferably wishiy-washy, like my patron saint Charlie Brown.

And I have another fault - I fail to take Internet discussions very seriously, because they are invariably dominated by the bigoted bullies with the loudest mouths and the least amount of intelligence. So, I see so much of what they say as just plain silly. My saying that makes them crazy, of course, as you can see above. And so, I rely on my other patron saint, Alfred E. Neuman of Mad Magazine, whose slogan is "What? ME worry?"

I see some accusations above that I'm "trolling" this thread. I don't think that's true. I'm just daring to question the bullies who dominate almost every political thread here.

-Joe Offer-

So, Jim, since you proved the "Jew-hater" allegations to have credence, you should be the one to make a contribution to the charity of your choice. I'd suggest ADL - the Jewish Defense League. I consider your suggestion of the ultraconservative Catholic Opus Dei organization to be offensive - yet another proof of your monolithic, bigoted point of view. And you used the same bigoted viewpoint to condemn current-day Americans for what happened in Spain in 1936. You're some piece of work, Jim. Try thinking of being a bit open-minded for a change.


    I didn't close this thread and I didn't delete the other one with the anonymously-written "song." When I woke up from a nap, the one thread was closed and the other was deleted. I'm grateful to the moderator who took that action.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 04:40 AM

I would like to say that I am very, very sorry for having posted the message just above. I took advantage of an opportunity to play "gotcha," and I got carried away. I did not understand how hurtful this "jew-hater" label was to Jim, and how it would affect him.

I have known Jim here at Mudcat for many years, and I have always thought the world of him. He is an excellent folk music researcher and a great source of information - and he is generous and helpful to a fault. But on top of that, he is a man of integrity and a man with a big, big heart. I don't always agree with him on political issues, but I admire his passion and his honesty.

And no, I do not believe that Jim Carroll is a Jew Hater, or that he would ever be a "hater" of anyone. He's too good a man.

I'm very sorry that I hurt you, Jim. I hope you'll forgive me.

-Joe Offer-



And now I'm going to close this thread, to put the hurtful comments to rest. -Joe-


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 25 July 6:39 PM EDT

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