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BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support

GeoffLawes 09 Jul 17 - 04:44 AM
Acme 09 Jul 17 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 12:09 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 17 - 02:21 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 17 - 02:33 PM
GeoffLawes 09 Jul 17 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 17 - 03:16 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 17 - 03:50 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 03:55 PM
Teribus 09 Jul 17 - 04:02 PM
Iains 09 Jul 17 - 04:20 PM
Iains 09 Jul 17 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM
Teribus 09 Jul 17 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 05:59 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 17 - 07:51 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 17 - 08:07 PM
robomatic 09 Jul 17 - 08:12 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 03:09 AM
Teribus 10 Jul 17 - 03:26 AM
Raggytash 10 Jul 17 - 03:44 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 04:03 AM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 17 - 04:49 AM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 17 - 01:05 PM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 01:36 PM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
robomatic 10 Jul 17 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 03:29 PM
Iains 10 Jul 17 - 04:56 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 05:13 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 17 - 07:29 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 17 - 07:44 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 17 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 05:39 AM
Iains 11 Jul 17 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM
Iains 11 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 09:29 AM
robomatic 12 Jul 17 - 10:40 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 12:56 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 17 - 04:17 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 AM
Jeri 13 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM
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Subject: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 04:44 AM

Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Acme
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 11:40 AM

That this House recalls the most valiant effort made eighty years ago by the volunteers of the International Brigades at the Battle of Brunete, during the Spanish Civil War, in July 1937; records its gratitude to all those who fought, including over 330 members of the British Battalion, and to those who were killed or wounded; recognises their inspirational example as pioneer combatants against the forces of fascism; and pledges that it will draw from their sacrifice in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 12:09 PM

I'll do it, Geoff. However, my MP is a Tory and they don't seem to be signing up in droves.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:21 PM

Again nothing is as simple as you ideologues believe.

Celebration of this old mess proves nothing and certainly does not aid the present day unity we require George Orwell's war


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:33 PM

Owrwell was reputed to have spent much of his time in bars
Beside the point anyway
Spain could have ben the turning point in stopping your lot from trying to over-run Europe
How dare people like you describe remembering them as "divisive" unless of course, you are suggesing remembering all wars are "divisive" - which I'm sure you're not
Raggy has made the point and you choose to ignore him, just as you will mine
"Too bust" no doubt, but not to busy to insult anti-Fascist heroes
Priorities, I suppose
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:34 PM

Hello Steve Shaw and others with Conservative MPs : you could perhaps remind your MP that former Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath was a supporter of the Spanish Republic against Franco and the fascists
http://spartacus-educational.com/PRheathE.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/jul/18/guardianobituaries.conservatives
And akenaton, the motion's desire "to draw from their sacrifice in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism" is ,alas, still very relevant,IMHO


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:16 PM

Of course I am suggesting all wars are divisive, but this one was also a pointless mess, as ever the left ended up killing each other over ideology.

As I have said many times, a fair society can only be achieved by unity and evolution, whatever system we end with will not have been chosen, but will have evolved through necessity.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:50 PM

Excuse me Mr Lawes but this thread is being censored.
I attempted to explain my position on this and as a long term member of the Communist Party I have no antipathy to the International Brigades.....I simply see this old conflict as a dreadful waste of life and ideals.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:55 PM

Geoff has a very long-standing thread in tbe music section in which he collects songs in English about the Spanish Civil War. I've contributed to that thread and, though I don't know Geoff personally, I'm guessing that he didn't post this in order to stoke a controversy on this forum. Just get your MP to sign the petition if you're minded to. Otherwise, show a bit of respect and just cool it, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 04:02 PM

For those interested in history those who wandered off to fight in Spain did absolutely nothing to defeat fascism. The fight against fascism began in 1938 when the reality that people like Churchill had been warning off as early as the mid-1930s was realised.

Chamberlain, the Prime Minister who Jom reckons no-one dare mention bought the time to allow the preparation that meant Britain was in some sort of shape to take on and defeat fascism in Germany and in Italy. Whether Spain and Portugal were fascist or not did not matter a jot - neither had any great ambition post war they were no different from any number of states.

If anyone doubts the above then address the points made NOT the person delivering the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 04:20 PM

Sixteen MP's supporting the motion so far, but no conservatives. I think the motion would have attracted far more support had the communist party not had such a high profile during the entire operation.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/28/mi5-spanish-civil-war-britain
       This same time period covered Stalin's great purge. Had this knowledge been public at the time, I suspect recruitment to the International Brigade would have tumbled.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:00 PM

One aspect of this motion that I cannot get my head around is the wording "That this House recalls the most valiant effort made eighty years ago by the volunteers of the International Brigades at the Battle of Brunete, during the Spanish Civil War, in July 1937; records its gratitude to all those who fought, including over 330 members of the British Battalion, and to those who were killed or wounded; recognises their inspirational example as pioneer combatants against the forces of fascism; and pledges that it will draw from their sacrifice in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and TOTALITARIANISM.
Yet ""The Communist party of Great Britain took responsibility for organising the recruitment of volunteers in Britain, and leading communists held positions as officers and "political commissars" with the British battalion in Spain."
Now correct me if I am wrong but was not Stalin's Communist Soviet Union a shining example of a totalitarian regime?

Somewhere the logic of all this shows a serious breakdown. Perhaps someone can enlighten me!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain

There is an interesting quote from the link:- From 1939 until 1941 the CPGB was very active in supporting strikes and in denouncing the government for its pursuit of the war. B. Farnborough says, "During the entire period up to the fall of France the British Communist Party functioned as a propaganda agency for Hitler.
I have no strong thoughts either way about those who volunteered. It was their choice. However I cannot see how I could support the motion
for the reasons above.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

If you agree, just lobby your MP. You have every right to start a civil war thread if you're so minded.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:37 PM

By the way can anyone explain why House of Commons time is being wasted on this? Haven't they got more important things to be getting on with?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:59 PM

It's called democracy. If you don't like it, start a civil war thread. I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers. This thread is a gentle suggestion from a man of great integrity that you might wish to consider lobbying your MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 07:51 PM

".I simply see this old conflict as a dreadful waste of life and ideals."
You have been asked to confirm that you hold the same belief about all all conflicts that are commemorated - your silence is an indication that this is not the case - no surprise there
This gathering of vicious vultures is reason in itself that the brave men who went out to stop fascism should not be forgotten
Wadda team eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 08:07 PM

The sentiment of this thread is a very positive one, Jim. It's sad, though entirely predictable, that right-wing naysayers such as Iains and Teribus have swanned in to cast aspersions on the brave - ok, idealistic - people who saw the deadly danger of fascism long before the politicians did. Geoff asked for a positive response to his request and I dearly hope that I'm not only one to respond positively.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 08:12 PM

"Mary McGregor!"


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:09 AM

"Iains and Teribus"
Not forgetting our tame homophobe and Anders Breivik admirer, Ake the Dogman.
These guys are what they are.
A few thousand poor people are burned out of their home by a horrific fire - they seep in the local park before they are given refuge in empty property
Soldiers who are sent off to die in the trenches become "liars" if their experiences contradict the official version.   
If refugees from wars we have helped to start are forced to wear 'yellow stars' in order to be fed, they are guests of our nation so they grin and bear it.
If one of our Royal ponces visits "Herr Hitler" and gives the Nazi salute, he's only "waving at the crowd"
A set pattern for the line of thought my old man went to Spain to fight against
These people are handy to have around as examples of what could have been and which might still be if brave people don't stand up to them.
Luckily, you can count them on one hand - how long did the BNP, or the NF or Ukip last as a national threat - they are light relief; lay back and enjoy them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:26 AM

They become liars Jom when they claim they have "seen" something that they patently haven't by the story they tell and accuse people of murder knowing that they are no longer around to defend themselves - to-date there has not been one single example of any summary execution of a British soldier. None of these "old soldiers" can give a name of people they refer to as "best friends" (Do you know the names of your childhood best friends Jom? Or can you not recall them? - Did you have any best friends as a child Jom?). People remember traumatic incidents and I am bloody certain that I would remember vividly if one of my "best friends" got shot down in cold blood right before my eyes I'd remember every single detail of it, including who had shot him if he was someone I had been serving under for months, someone I had had to report to in the course of my everyday duties.

On the salute thing Jom? Have you ever saluted? Any idea of the protocols for it? One of them is you never salute if you are not wearing a hat or cap. Who was he saluting for a start and why are none of the people standing round him saluting?


Nazis "saluting" or just people waving

Apart from denouncing the seizure of private property and pointing out that to do so would take too long I do not believe I commented on the Grenfell Tower thread.

Who was made to "Wear Yellow Stars" Jom? And where and when did Iains or myself comment on it?

Are lies and misrepresentations really all you can come up with? You sad "little" man - and I really do mean "little" in every respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:44 AM

Spot the difference


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:03 AM

Anyway, I'm writing to my MP right now. That was the gentle request made at the start of the thread. If you disagree, don't write. Just don't let this particular thread epitomise everything that's wrong with this forum below the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:25 AM

Jim the fact your father is claimed to have fought in Spain does not give you the right to insist everyone should share your views on the subject and pour abuse on those that do not. I have already stated I hold no strong views either way on those who went. The most I would state is that perhaps some were misguided.
But of course you have to respond with your usual vitriol because you cannot handle the fact others may reach conclusions different to yours. By now you should have realised your extreme position in many discussions gains few, if any, supporters.
Claiming I have any kind of association with Anders Breivik is typical of your cheap poorly considered made up shit. You really are a total disgrace. You are like a typical playground bully. Attack the person because attacking the argument requires profound thought that you clearly are not capable of.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:28 AM

"They become liars" when their experiences dont fit the account of morons like "Wrong Shell Kitchener" and the like
You ought be be ashamed of yourself denigrating the contribution of the real heroes of that friggin' Imperial bloodbath
The fact that you aren't makes you what you are
"And where and when did Iains or myself comment on it?"
One of Ake's bon mottes - he's one of the stars of your pack - if not the prime example
Iaians is just vacuous decoration and you- and amusing caricature of the dying Empire Days
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:49 AM

I shall email my MP but, like Steve, I don't hold out much hope. Julian Smith is also a Tory who has always voted with his party line.

I wouldn't worry to much about the detractors. Either do as the opening post suggests or don't. Up to individuals. But I would point out that the 'long term member of the Communist Party' posting above did vote Conservative in the last election and his opinions do not really carry any credence.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:51 AM

Steve Shaw
"It's called democracy. If you don't like it, start a civil war thread. I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers. This thread is a gentle suggestion from a man of great integrity that you might wish to consider lobbying your MP."
Steve Shaw
"Posting about food is deliberate and intentional thread drift, designed to irritate but not to goad into emotional responses, therefore it is not trolling. I would estimate that all bar about four people who read these benighted threads welcome it as a leavening of the bread (now there's an idea - I might come back to that). Clearly, your understanding of trolling is about as hazy as your understanding of antisemitism."


Taken the hipocritic oath have we?

The volunteers raised controversy at the time. Those same questions remain today. Some regarded them as heroes, some as fools,others as misguided. Obviously trying to drum up support for the motion will raise counter arguments. I believe this is called democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM

"therefore it is not trolling."
Your persistent ill-brought-up and aggressive attempts to talk to talk down to people are
If you wish to be taken seriously, I suggest you pack it in - our in-house meglomanic clown' spot is already taken
"The volunteers raised controversy at the time. "
From the experience of my father and others I have met, any controversy was deliberately generated by the lie that those who went of to fight were communists bent on fermenting revolution, when the opposite was the case
Even on the eve of Britain's war with Germany, on their return, they were criminalised and given a record as "premature anti-fascists" and blacklisted from their work - that is how much WW2 was the "war against fascism" it was claimed to have been
The personal consequences of this was that my family didn't see may father on a regular basis until he was able to obtain regular work at home in 1950
That was the 'Home fit for heroes' that the establishment created from the sacrifices of Spain and WW2
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM

In current popular thinking,
there may be an attempt to start all over again with a new political & economic system
sometime after the dust has settled from the imminent global eco* / nuclear* / zombie* / alien invasion* apocalypse.... 🙄


[* Take yer pick - check bookies odds...]


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 01:05 PM

Btw.. if any hack political pundits have been drawing comparisons between the Spanish Civil War,
and British born volunteers defying the law to risk the hazards of travelling to fight IS1S in Syria....?????

A future Ken Loachish movie auteur might get an interesting thought provoking drama out of that diverse mismatched 'band of brothers [& sisters]'...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 01:36 PM

I would have thought that the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 would have placed all the volunteers in breach of the law. This would make it rather difficult for Parliament to acknowledge any kind of recognition for their illegal activities. Or does modern Parliament turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality when it suits?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

A very brief overview but perhaps some may question the veracity.


http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj84/durgan.htm

There is an argument put forward that certain european powers including Britain and France kept well clear of the civil war, for fear of it exploding into a greater regional war. Russia and Germany had no such reservations.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 02:32 PM

Going back to the OP and its link, what I find wrong about it is the attempt to piggyback today's issues onto a genuine cause over which much blood was shed. Surely we can find real cases of "fascism, racism, xenophobia, and totalitarianism" in the here and now without having to find vindication eighty years in the past?

Something similar just happened when an American Congressman filmed himself in Auschwitz with a message combining his concerns with the brutalities of the past in a way that satisfied nobody.

I think in both cases the real damage is done in cheapening our perception of past events.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 03:29 PM

"Surely we can find real cases of "fascism, racism, xenophobia, and totalitarianism" in the here and now without having to find vindication eighty years in the past?"
A vital condition of progress is that we understand our past - we can't give our history to Oxfam like an old coat - it remains with us forever
It's interesting that the right here only wish to kick Spain into touch but are happy to go on the obscenities that were the World Wars - discussions like this make it clear that Spain digs up far too many establishment skeletons to suit their politics, so let's forget a principled war fought by volunteers who were willing to lay their lives down for a decent cause and continue to kiss the backsides of the leaders whose job it was to get as many young men as possible and send them to their deaths until "the enemy", who were basically in the same position, threw in the towel.
Then our children's children can all sit by the fir and discuss the next time it happens - and it will if it' allowed to.
Sorry Robo - we owe the future far more than that
Haven't we left the world in enough of a shit state without adding to it?
Interesting link Iains - if somewhat partisan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 04:56 PM

Jim. I think you take a partisan view of the civil war. It could be argued it was a proxy war for the Soviets and Nazis but only in a half heated sort of way. Despite communist recruitment of the volunteers, reports suggest training and equipment was deficient, despite a kind of Soviet participation. This seems to have been more to do with leaders and commissars but limited commissariat.
Britain was slowly beginning to realise that Hitler was an increasing threat, but initial threats were thought to be in the East.The Defence Requirements Sub-Committee costed the requirements at 75million. Chamberlein cut it to 50. A second report was issued in 1935 insisting on acceleration and more aircraft. A third report was issued in 1936.
It was DECISIVE. It looked at war with Germany, Japan and Italy; the report contained a stark warning: Britain could not win this coming war. Therefore, it suggested, appeasement was a good idea. To be in the situation outlined it was no surprise that Britain was terrified that the Spanish Civil War might escalate beyond it's borders and that
rearmament at that time had hardly started, and that when it did start the initial aim was purely deterrence, not battle. I would posit the big picture had many more constraints on British courses of action than you allow for. In essence we were weak and unprepared for a total war. By Aug 1939 the Molotov ribbentrop pact destroyed the hope of a pact with Stalin, who hoped that Germany would fight on a western front and enable the soviets to become stronger. This made the British and allies position even more precarious. The situation throughout the 30's was complex and constantly changing and cannot be easily summarised in a couple of paragraphs. You may have detailed knowledge of the civil war but many other external factors dictated the actions of other governments that directly impacted the civil war.



https://jamespetersnell.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/404/


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 05:13 PM

"I would have thought that the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 would have placed all the in breach of the law. This would make it rather difficult for Parliament to acknowledge any kind of recognition for their illegal activities. Or does modern Parliament turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality when it suits?"

What criminality, please? We live in a democracy in which it is valid and appropriate to challenge silly laws. It was a bloody silly law to shut pubs in Wales on Sundays. It was a bloody silly law that made gay people criminals. It was a bloody silly law that allowed this country to hang people on the end of a knotted rope. Resorting to an act of 1870 yo make any sort of case, wow, such an enlighted time I don't think, is the resort of a charlatan and an idiot. If the cap fits...

Anyway, lobby your MP or don't bother. You and your ilk have poisoned a thread that was started with the best of intentions. I hope you're happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

Well I've written to my MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 07:29 PM

"Jim. I think you take a partisan view of the civil war."
Most socialists do - they regard fascism an enemy of society (I can think of at least six million reasons why that is the case) and anybody who is prepared to stand up to the threat of fascism, despite their government's appeasement of it. heroes
None of your lot has actually got round to tackling that appeasement., and I doubt if you will ever emerge far enough out of your closets to do so.
The Civil War was a proxy for nothing - Franco opposed a legally elected Government, he staged a military coup and enlisted the support of the Moroccans to support him
This happened at the the time that Lord Rothermere, via his Daily Mail, was supporting the Hitler Government and the rise of British Fascism, Mosley's thugs were taking to the streets (protected by our boys in Blue) and the Nazis were well into their persecution of the Jews
My old man (who was a well-brought-up Catholic Collegian), and many others of similar ilk, saw the warning signs and decided that, if the governments were not going to do anything about it, somebody should.
His mother, my grandmother (who I met only once) beat him by a few month when she was arrested for throwing a stone at Mosley and hitting him - another family hero
Bullshit aside, if what I have described her didn't happen, or if Mosley or Franco have been greatly misjudged by history, please feel free to put be back on the straight and narrow.
In the case of the latter, having just read 'The Spanish Holocaust', you may add the fact that Franco's fascism continued virtually up to his death with mass torture and murder, in many cases, simply for revenge for the Civil War
The case is a simple one - fascism was on the rise, having first welcomed it as "a bulwark against Bolshevism" the bulk of our leaders decided to continue to support it, hoping it's excesses would be confined to Germany, the volunteers left the safety of their homes and went to fight it
Your blog from a totally unknown and presumably unqualified blogger touches on none of this - if I was the slightest bit interested I would be tempted to ask 'what's your point'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 07:44 PM

It was a bad time. But, to quote John Seymour (hardly a leftie), the working people of this country had little time for the Jews but they were damned if they were going to stand by while they were herded into death camps. I lived and worked in that part of the East End for seven years and the memory was still strong (my favourite pub, alas a pub no more, was a habitat of the Krays too but they were dissed by the locals. You can always trust ordinary working people to be on the right side in the end. Living and working among them for over a decade taught me that. I think it's beginning to happen again right now).

Great post, Jim. I wish everyone posting to this thread could be so positive.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 03:56 AM

"my favourite pub, alas a pub no more, was a habitat of the Krays too"
I assume you are referring to 'The Blind Beggar' on Whitechapel Road - we recorded many Travellers on a piece of waste ground on a road running parallel to the main road and drank with them a few doors down from 'The Beggar' (which shares its name with one of the oldest songs still in currency among Irish Travellers in the 70s - we used the 'Blind man and dog' woodcut to illustrate our first album of Traveller songs, 'Early in the Month of Spring')
The East End of London had a proud record of anti-fascist activity in the Thirties - we used to go to an Irish music session in a pub named (ironically) The Britannia, opposite Cable Street - that street proudly boasts a blue plaque commemorating THE BATTLE of CABLE STREET when ordinary British people, dockers, costermongers, shopworkers...... ordinary British people, political and non-political, took to the streets in their thousands to oppose marching fascists and baton-wielding mounted police protecting them.
That's the militant Britain I am proud to be part of and remember - not the nodding dog ceremonies commemorating the leaders who sat back in the comfort and safety of their bases, fighting among themselves and sending the wrong shells and information to the front, condemning an entire generation of young men to their deaths in the mud of Europe.
My first landlord in London, a doctor named Hugh Faulkner, a man you would never fail to recognise as being Jewish, quietly volunteered to infiltrate The Blackshirts and attend their meetings in order to report where their marches were to take place in advance so they could be opposed
When the trolls and goose-steppers on this forum accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and an "Anglophobe" I remember that their England isn't mine and their Jews are not my Jews.
My Jews are Hugh Faulkner and the Les Parrington (who fled South African Apartheid Regime in order to escape an arrest warrant for opposing that regime) - or all the holocaust survivors I met in Manchester - their Jews are the regime that drugged and kidnapped my personal hero, Mordechai Vanunu and imprisoned him for seventeen years, eleven of those in solitary confinement, for telling the world what it desperately needed to know.
My England is that of the dock workers I befriended when I was an apprentice - those who worked in foul, health-destroying conditions and fought to change those conditions, turning being a docker from the old "pen system" where workers were selected on a daily basis like animals being picked for slaughter, to a dignified and respected occupation where they went home with a living wage at the end of the week (until the docks were finally closed as wealth producers for Britain and sources of employment for Liverpool people, and eventually turned into museums and homes for the wealth by Thatcher and her predecessors)
Now I'm getting on in years, hardly a week goes past when I don't think with pride of the sacrifice made by my old man and his mates to try and stop fascism getting a hold in the world
You may stick your accusations of "Jew hater" and "Anglophobe" up until it knocks your hat off - they remind me of the different values held in the two Britains that have been created so that those who already more than enough have, can accumulate even more
Have a good day y'all - off to Galway to see the new Joe Heaney film
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 05:39 AM

I vaguely remember that pub, Jim, as it one of the pubs we'd start our last-day-of-term pissups back in the day, probably coming to a staggering finish at the Hollands. One of those Whitechapel pubs had amazing Victorian gents toilets, more sculptured porcelain and polished brass than in the rest of London put together, but I can't remember if it was that one. Mine was actually the Exmouth Arms, popularly known as the Hollands after the Victorian family and their descendants who ran it, just off Commercial Road on Exmouth Street, the other side of the road from Cable Street. I think it officially changed its name to the Hollands in the seventies as no-one ever called it anything else! Sadly gone now. Not quite as notorious as the Blind Beggar which has dined out on the fact that Ronnie murdered a rival in cold blood in the saloon bar. It wasn't entirely sensible to go into those pubs in the early seventies shooting your mouth off about the Krays, just as you wouldn't go into a bar in Palermo rattling on about the Mafia!

Thanks for the great post by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 05:51 AM

Jim Unlike you I try to look at the various points of view and see where the consensus lies. The paper I quoted may be unknown to you but it is the content that is critical. It agrees with the premise that Britain was not prepared to be drawn into a regional war that would end in defeat. You can call it appeasement if you wish. The objective was to keep out of it entirely and prepare for an inevitable war.It is also critical to appreciate the extent to which the great depression and isolationism of the US impacted on military preparedness. You keep stressing appeasement as some sort of dirty word, the reality is that it was the only practical option available. The British government could hardly declare "time out" while they prepared for the inevitable.
Another view.
http://www.internationalschooltoulouse.net/ibhistory/spain/phillips_ex_essay.htm

I preferred the Prospect of Whitby on Wapping Wall, although the ankle deep glass on the floor at the end of the evening was a bit of a challenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM

What consensus Iains?
Nobody was ever asked to vote on the appeasement of fascism, or is there a gap in my knowledge of the history of the period?
I prefer the views of the British people ispired by the actual events at the time they were happening rather than those generated by an agenda driven press trying to defend the crimes of past administrations who were happy to let the Jews go to their deaths in millions rather than disturb the political and economic status quo and the finer feelings of 'Herr Hitler'
The end result was yet another war – after our politicians had promeised us that the last bloodbath was "the war to end all wars"
You people really do put your weight behing the 'right people' what with your fire refugees sleeping in the parks rather than allowing them the use of empty buildings, and your poor misjudged Assad accused falsely of mass murder and torture
Give us a break, will you
The Spanish Civil War was sold out by the democracies (sic) because, right up to five-to-midnight, they still considered the Nazis "the bulwark against Bolshevism"
Jim Carroll
Would that Sian Phillips the one who gave that wonderful performance as the evil Livia in 'I Claudius'


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM

Try harder.

I drank in the Prospect many times. We held our Lancastrians' Association (of the University of London) meetings there. I was the treasurer. We once treated Thora Hird and her husband to dinner as our special guests. I sat next to Thora all evening. She was great company, solid Lancashire with just a touch of posh. She complained about the cheese being overripe! The trouble with that pub was the 96 steps up to the street from the platform at Wapping tube station. We also drank at the Mayflower in Rotherhithe, washing crusty white bread and finest cheddar and chutney down with real ale (best meal on the planet when you're a bit peckish) and I remember sitting by the river at The Angel supping icy pints of lager after work on those extremely hot 1976 evenings. It just had to be cold, hence lager.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM

Steve you went to the prospect more than 10 years after my visits.
When I was there the swanky eatery was upstairs and downstairs on a friday saturday night a hawaian group played, fenced in by scaffold poles. They played along to the rugby songs being sung in a jam packed bar. It would take 20mins to reach the bar and a further 20 to get served. The secret was to arrive early and get sufficient crates to last the evening.

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=119297


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:29 AM

I started going there in 1969.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 17 - 10:40 PM

When the trolls and goose-steppers on this forum accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and an "Anglophobe" I remember that their England isn't mine and their Jews are not my Jews.

Given the multiple messages that have been eliminated from this thread without cause, it becomes clear that YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 12:56 AM

I'm thinking maybe the moderators have been too active in this thread. I don't think it's clear that there was a right side and a wrong side in the Spanish Civil War. There's still a lot of room for debate. Some of the deletions in this thread are justifiable, but I would ask the moderators to be a little more moderate in their moderation.
A lot of important folk music stems from the Spanish Civil War, so I think it's right for me to speak up on this.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 04:17 AM

"YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!"
I'm not the one who invented the term "self-hating Jews" to support policies that the civilised people of thew world find obnoxious and inhuman
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jewish people in Germany - I met several Israeli freedom fighters, one of whom shared a cell with him in San Sebastian Prison
My grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone at Mosely at an Anti-Jewish Rally (the family story that the stone hit its mark was confirmed by a member of this forum)
I dated the daughter of a Holocaust survivor - we fell out because I was shocked when her mother when she compared the Israeli regime to the Nazis - I didn't know any better in those days.
I'm sick and tired of being called "a Jew Hater" by an Anti Semite on this thread because I, along with Jews throughout the world, are critical of what has happened to Israel in the hands of right wing regime after right wing regime, despite the clause in the accepted definition that states clearly that "it is antisemitic to hold Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
I have never accused The Jewish People collectively responsible" for anything and have offered a generous donation to any charity named by anybody who can show I have - no takers so far.
To accuse critics of Israel of being antisemitic is antisemitic by definition - Bobad does that, Robo is now beginning to do that - my offer still stands.
My Jews are not their Jews - I stand with the 'Jews for Justice, and the Rabbis for Justice' nd the Holocaust Survivors who compared the behaviour of Israel in Gaza to that of the Nazis, and Mordachai Venunu, who spent 18 years under house arrest, 11 of those in solitary confinement, for telling the world what it needed to know, that an unstable extremist right wing state had nuclear weapons - they are my Jews.   
Israel has become an antisemitic state because it bases its entire defence of its behaviour on accusations that its opponents are antisemitic for condemning its behaviour in Gaza - the civilised world condemns its behaviour in Gaza.
Israel has recently confirmed it's antsemitic position through its u-turn over events in Hungary - a lift from another thread
"The ultra-right there issued an antisemitic poster attacking Jewish billionaire George Soros
Human rights Watch compared the poster to Nazi propaganda, Yossi Amrani, Israel's ambassador agreed and demanded a ban on the poster   
His bosses in Israel endorsed the call, but U-turned when they found that Soros gave money to charities which are critical of Netanyahu - they are now defending the poster.
So the Israeli regime has finally come out publicly declaring their own well-being to be more important than that of the Jewish People
That's from today's Times, by the way"

I had no intention of bringing this argument to this thread - Robo has done it and I feel the need to respond
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jews - my grandmother was arrested because of the antisemitism that was showing its evil face on the streets of Liverpool - Jewish friends and fellow travellers have been part of my life for most of my life - I believe they came to my parents wedding and my Christening, I met two Israeli freedom fighters who fought for the news State of Israel at my father's funeral
When members of this thread who, contrary to the European definition, can't tell the difference between the actions of the Israeli regime and the interests of the Jewish People as a whole, accuse me of antisemitism I will respond
There's and end to it, as far as I'm concerned.
I've just returned refreshed from seeing the wonderful new Joe Heaney film, 'Song of Granite'
So if anybody wants to take up the argument about the Spanish Civil War, perhaps we can do so without trying to talk down to people (if the cap fits....)
By the way Robo "YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!"
Far from it - my Jews are the ones who are branded "self hating" because they refuse to be silent about the crimes of the people who refer to them as "self haters" and "self loathers" - this includes the Holocaust survivors who signed the petition, Albert Einstein and his friends who warned abut the rise of Zionist fascism, the ex heads of Mossad who compared the present regime the behaviour of the present Israeli regime to that of the Nazis..... and every brave Jew who has risked being branded antisemitic because they are appalled at what has happened to the State of Israel - they are "my Jews" - hardly "silent"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 AM

I don't agree with you, Joe. The thread was started in good faith by a man who has a very long-running music thread on the Spanish Civil War who asked us to consider contacting our MPs about a possible upcoming motion in Parliament. He did not ask for a bunch of right-wing trolls to take over the thread and destroy its sentiment. A number of the deleted posts were highly and gratuitously offensive. The trolls are generally identifiable by the arrogant manner in which they complain about post deletions. There is ample scope here for anyone who wants to to start a Spanish Civil War thread to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM

I would ask Joe to be a little less willing to appease trolls.
Don't work so hard at making Mudcat a relatively safe place to verbally beat the shit out of opponents, and pretty much say the same thing, over and over, mainly because of WHO is posting.

OP:
Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126


If you want to protect them, maybe you should just give the brawlers a Permathread™ for Jewish/anti, so any thread that comes close to mentioning (or implying) Jews doesn't get usurped by obsessives?


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Mudcat time: 19 August 1:30 AM EDT

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