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BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support

Vashta Nerada 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 04:43 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM
Jeri 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 05:31 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 06:53 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 12:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 05:57 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 08:50 AM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 08:52 AM
Raggytash 14 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 10:18 AM
Jeri 14 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:11 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 04:13 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 04:37 PM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jul 17 - 06:24 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 07:00 PM
Raggytash 14 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 07:54 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 09:18 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM
akenaton 15 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 04:38 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM

Into the hopper it goes:

I'm an American rabbi. Israel no longer recognizes my religious authority. Washington Post.


And because I know that the rabbis on the list with me aren't actually the only rabbis blacklisted. The blacklist really encompasses all rabbis who don't subscribe to the exclusionary worldview of the Rabbanut. Most of all, I feel sad because it is not really just rabbis who are blacklisted: All progressive-minded Jews have been blacklisted. The Rabbanut has shunned all of us who welcome open questioning, diversity, pluralism and many paths to God and to holiness within our people, and in the world.

I feel sad for all the Jewish people, for the ultra-Orthodox contempt for other Jews who are not like them. I grieve for the way they undermine Jewish unity in the interest of their political power in Israel. This lethal mixture of politics and religion is tearing apart the Jewish world through this list and similar exclusionary tactics — most notably, the recent agreement between ultra-Orthodox Jews and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to revoke an earlier deal that would have officially sanctioned pluralistic prayer services at the Western Wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

I don't think it's clear that there was a right side and a wrong side in the Spanish Civil War.

Really Joe? Franco was an OK guy? Guernica was a morally neutral act? My grandfather (from Bilbao) lost a brother at Guernica and two others killed by the Fascists.

Think again.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 11:41 AM

I think it's pretty clear too, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/canadaBlanch/pdf/press2012/16Apr12WalesArtsReview.pdf
THIS MIGHT HELP MAKE UP A FEW MINDS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM

I think, Jeri, that you may be confused. As far as I know, Mudcat has never had a policy of prohibiting provocative statements. We do, however, attempt to prohibit or at least control combative conduct. There is no doubt in my mind that robomatic and akenation and a few others who express the right-wing perspective, post statements that are frequently and intentionally provocative. And predictably, we have a few from the dominant liberal perspective who respond like an anthill underfoot. Their indignation would almost be precious, if it were not so predictable.
If they wished, the liberals could use the provocation to respond in a rational and informative manner. Jim Carroll responded just now with a link that was very informative: http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/canadaBlanch/pdf/press2012/16Apr12WalesArtsReview.pdf. Others responded with their usual tizzy of indignation.
If we suppressed the conservative provocateurs to satisfy the indignant majority, then the liberals could sit around smugly and admire each other for a while. And within a short time, they'd get bored and infighting would begin, and combat here at Mudcat would be worse than it is now.
So, yeah, I usually find the provocative statements of the conservatives to be disagreeable - but they are very rarely combative. With the way certain liberal Mudcatters get in a tizzy about things, that conservatives have no need to be combative.
Put the blame on those who do combat, Jeri; not on those who simply express disagreeable ideas. The liberals need to learn how to respond with logic and information, not with a frenzy of indignation. The conservatives serve the function of provoking discussion. I don't see that as something that should be suppressed.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 04:43 PM

The conservatives serve the function of provoking discussion.

So Drumph's and other "conservatives'" serial lies, misinformation, white supremacy & misogyny simply "provoke discussion"?

Unh-hunh. You bet, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

So, Greggy, we're talking about the Spanish Civil War here. Do you know anything about it? Your friend Trump most likely knows nothing about it, so leave him out of it. It took place 1936-39. Many Americans fought on the side of the Republicans, but they lost to the Fascists under Franco. Anti-Franco Americans were considered suspect in the United States, and the U.S. Government played footsie with Franco for decades.
Why was it that the Americans were so friendly to Franco for so long?

Like I say, your friend Trump wouldn't know, even though he calls himself a Republican.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 PM

"Put the blame on those who do combat, Jeri; not on those who simply express disagreeable ideas."

Duh

Done playing with trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:31 PM

The Spanish Civil War generated a good number of Songs of the Spanish Civil War threads. I think we have a lot to learn on the subject. Many of the songs were hopelessly idealistic, as were the soldiers who came from all over the world to fight on behelf of the Spanish Republic. Maybe it's time for a realistic reassessment.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 06:53 PM

So, Greggy, we're talking about the Spanish Civil War here. Do you know anything about it?

So Joey, re-read 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

And then piss off.

PS: Why was it that the Americans were so friendly to Hitler for so long?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

You have this arse about face, Joe. Combative behaviour here is in itself not objectionable. What is objectionable is when the combative behaviour is peppered with personal insults, misrepresentations and obsessively tedious repetitions. On the other hand, the very definition of trolling requires behaviour deliberately intended to provoke. Look it up. Of course, good rough-and-tumble debate requires some provocation, otherwise it would be repressively dull. But the provocation objected to here by some of us "liberals" (your word, most emphatically not mine) is all too often motivated by bigotry. Calling someone a Jew-hater is both extremely provocative and is born of bigotry on the part of the provocateur. It's trolling, in other words. I'm sorry that you can't see it for what it is (well, unless of course you really believe that the likes of Jim and me are truly Jew-haters). And that sentence is intended to be provocative. But not trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 12:37 AM

Well, gee, Stevie. I tried searching, and found that the term ":Jew-hater" is used almost exclusively by those Mudcatters that most people think to be liberal. You're one of the primary users of the term.
The fact of the matter is, that it's the so-called liberals who continually act like ants whose anthill got stepped on.
So, how about discussing facts, rather than name-calling?

Same for you, Greggy. If you know something about the Spanish Civil War, why not talk about it instead of bringing up Trump again? Thne Spanish Civil War is a fascinating subject, so there should be no need for you cads to resort to your usual petty squabbling. Where did/does the Spanish monarchy fit into all of this?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM

"Jew-hater" is used almost exclusively by those Mudcatters that most people think to be liberal."
I've no idea where this acme from Joe
The only individual who uses this as a term of invective is Bobad - the rest of us quote it in response to his insulting and personal behaviour which had continued unchecked for years now
Bobad lashes out with his accusation of "antisemite" and "Jew hater" whenever any of us deem to criticise his favourite terrorist state - those of us at the brunt of his insults quote his having done so - he is the only one to use it as a serious accusation.
I'll be extremely surprised if you can come up with another example.
The fact that Bobad's trollish behaviour has gone unchecked (publicly, that is) unstopped for as long as it has, is as big a mystery to me as are The Marie Celeste and the Bronze Age Forts that scatter The Burren.
I've just put up a statement about your church's involvement in the Spanish Civil War, largely based on my father's experiences at their hands while a prisoner there - I find this morning that that message hes been removed.
It personally attacked nobody - it was straightforward fact - yet it is no longer there.
That shows a somewhat uneven-handed approach in my opinion
WE all lose ouyr rag occasionally during these arguments - it happens with subjects you regard important (especially when those subjects effect you personally)
Only two posters consistently set out to insult and talk down other members of this forum - one a veteran, and one a newbie who has lifted his insulting behaviour wholesale and hasn't the experience nor the imagination to make it his own - neither of these could be described as "liberals"
Even the persistent misuse of the term "liberal" has become an insult in the postings of one rather odd individual - when pressed, he defines it as "fascist"
I enjoy debating with people on this forum - whether they share my views or not - it is a way of re-questioning your own opinions and, at best, sharing information.
Unfortunately, for some it is a game of "winning and losing" at all costs - when that happens, the value is flushed down the jacks, and all too often, the culprit/s complain of "too much information - too many facts".
We all need to clear up out acts - some of us tried with what you described as "childish name-calling" yet one individual persists defiantly (probably because he has little else going for him)
Nuff said
I will re-post my Church/Franco message later and see what happens
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM

I think the Catholic Church has a lot to be embarrassed about in Spain and Portugal, Jim, going back to Ferdinand and Isabella and the Borgias in the 15th Century - and the expulsion of the Moors and Jews, and the Spanish Inquisition.

Fatima in Portugal is an interesting phenomenon, the reported appearance of the Virgin Mary in 1917, with a strong anti-communist message. To this day, a military honor guard is part of the nightly procession at the shrine, led by a uniformed soldier carrying a neon cross like a flag. I do relish the irony of a Catholic shrine with a Muslim name (Fatíma).

There is a militarism to the Catholic faith in Spain and Portugal, that makes me very nervous. I think it's safe to say the militarism pervades the culture, not just the religion. Salazar and Franco have not been forgotten, and I'm wondering why their memory remains so attractive.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 05:57 AM

Accusing me of "using" the term Jew-hater is tremendously unfair of you, Joe. I have only ever referred to the term in posts critical of the main employer of the term on this forum and have never used it to describe anyone else. Many such instances of his use of the term to defame other members of the forum have been allowed to stand, to the eternal disgrace of this forum. That is one brush you should not tar Jim and me with. As I said in a now-deleted post (no complaints on that score, by the way), there are times when you need to cast aside the fact that you may not care much for the two of us. But fair's fair, eh, and we are grown-ups after all. That was an exceptionally careless and unthinking criticism.

Fátima is one of the most egregious examples of Catholic hocus-pocus. I'm amazed that you give it any credence at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 08:50 AM

"Greggie"? "Stevie"- Gee, Joey - didn't I get a bollocking from you for "calling people names" a while back??

instead of bringing up Trump again?

"Bringing up Trump" was only an example to show up your sophomiric and silly "provoke discussion" scenario.

"If you know something about the Spanish Civil War, why not talk about it

As you obviously know nothing about the Spanish Civil War why not shut the hell up about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 08:52 AM

In the face of all this weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth over the term "Jew hater", which BTW can be easily backed up by evidence, if you look up usage of terms like "Nazis", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist" etc. you will detect a strong odour of hypocrisy emanating from the two prominent whiners.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM

The difference being Boobad you used the term on anyone who you THINK criticises the Jewish state.

In fact if anyone mentions Israeli in less than glowing terms you rise up and accuse them of being Jew Haters irrespective of the content of their post.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM

Oh, just leave him to prattle on. Notable that even Keith and Teribus don't support him. I expect they have to do that uncomfortable buttock-shuffle thing every time he thinks he's posting "on their side." Perhaps he could get akenaton on board...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM

you used the term on anyone who you THINK criticises the Jewish state.

Not true, there is legitimate criticism then there is using lies in order to demonize.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:18 AM

" which BTW can be easily backed up by evidence, "
This becomes intolerable
There are no "Jew Haters" or antisemites on Mudcat - there never have been; they would have been hunted out and removed long ago.
Joe accuses Steve of using the term but the serial culprit is allowed to continue unchecked
"Antisemitism" has now become a stock defence of Israeli state terrorism - a form of suppression of all criticism of that subject
Unless Bobad comes up with his evidence that anybody on this forum has embarked on a campaign of hate against the Jewish people, I sugest he be formally asked to desist and if he refuses, be expelled
One of the conditions of joining this forum is that we do not insult each other - about time this was applied to at least the serial offenders
Some of us here take antisemitism seriously enough to object to it being used to pursue personal agendas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM

Jojo is honing his trolling skills. I'd say he's fair game now.

Live by the sword, get poked in the bum by the sword...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps we can move on from this toxic idiocy and continue the subject with a modicum of decency
I posted this earlier - it mysteriously disappeared -one more time
My father went to Spain as a practicing Catholic appalled at what was happening to the Jewish people both in Europe and on the streets of Britain - any politicisation came later
He was wounded and captured, at first he was tended in a hospital run bu Nuns - no problem - he received humane and careful treatment for his wounds
When he was moved to San Sebastian Prison, he began to question his former loyalty to the church.
The priests there has merged themslves into the fascist regime and all idea that the Republican prisoners should be treated as human beings quickly disappeared
One of the favourite spots of the guards was to irregularly but frequently select a prisoner, take him out to the yard , where the priest would administer the last rites, the guards would line up and take aim - then the 'firing squad' and the priest would fall about laughing as the prisoner was led back to his cell, usually soaked in his own piss
This happened at least half a dozen times to my father (I learned this fairy recently from a historian researching the role of Liverpudlians in Spain - my dad never spoke of it).
The only time I ever saw him weep was when he related the story of a 14 year old Spanish boy who had been suspected of being a runner for the Republican forces.
The somewhat laid-back Italian commandant over the prison decided that the boy was not a great threat, so he ordeered him to be detained with the rest
Unfortunately, a priest recogised the lad as being from his home village and requested that he be executed (for fear that we war would turn out differently than it did) - the boy was shot immediately
Franco's Spain existed far longer than any other fascist state, and at its height, its crimes were similar to those of the Assad regime - like Syria, it continued to exist with the full support of the "decent democratic countries"
The church continued to be an enthusiastic supporter throughout that time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM

Joe is one of a rare breed ....a real liberal.
Read what he says and learn.....most of you are not fit to lace his boots.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

" real liberal."
For "liberal" read "fascist"
Perhaps another subject for a warning
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

I agree with Joe on this one, but his post is probably one of the most provocative on the thread.
Why was it not deleted......geese and ganders come to mind!   Oh better re-phrase that for Mudcat consumption. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM

More Ake news. Sad.

Does Joey wear boots?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM

There's quite a difference between using a term and mentioning a term that someone else has used. Calling me a "primary user" of a term that I only ever mention in reaction to its being used as a defamatory term of abuse towards a couple of us is a bit ridiculous really.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

C'mon lads - don't let this feller drive another thread into the ground - that's what they do best
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM

WHICH feller? Joey, Boobs or Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

"WHICH feller? Joey, Boobs or Ake?"
I think two of those are deliberately attempting to fuck up thread that are not confortable with
Don't let them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

I dunno. I searched and searched under "jew-hater" and "jew hater," and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such. The term is used dozens of times by those who accuse others of using the term. So, what am I to conclude? Maybe if the term were dropped altogether, the problems would mostly go away. Or, if there is something said that might imply that someone is antisemitic, perhaps it would be appropriate to respond to the matter rationally at the time the implication is made, rather than repeating it endlessly out of context?

And try as I might to encourage people to actually talk about the Spanish Civil war in this thread, few of the "usual suspects" seem to be able to carry on a reasonable discussion of the matter, and they almost immediately go back to their usual squabbling - now tied to an allegation that I know nothing about Spain and Portugal, and thus am not qualified to participate in the discussion.

So, what was it about the Franco regime that drew both Republican and Democratic American governments to support it for such a long time?

What amount of support did France and the UK offer to Franco and Salazar?

Was the US support due to the fact that Franco and Salazar offered the US military bases?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM

" and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such."
Try Labout Party 2 Joe
Bobad uses it at lest half a dozen times there - that took me less than five minutes
Will happily spend a half hour at it and come up with another dozen or so
He also uses "antisemite" regularly - haven't got time to count tham just now - I have an appointment next Thursday
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:00 PM

OK, Jim, you got me. I was bored silly by the bickering in the first Labour thread, so I hadn't bothered with the second. It appears the term "Jew Hater" is used 37 times in the thread, distributed fairly equally between the two sides of the "debate." I think perhaps the term has been thrown back and forth so often, that it's no longer picked up by our search engines.

Still, the "Jew Hater" stuff all seems rather silly to me, and even more inane to bring it over into this thread.
Sheer pettiness, and then some.

So, about the International Brigades....does anybody have anything to say about the International Brigades? Where does Hemingway fit into the story? To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco?


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:11 PM

Sorry Joe - missed a couple
Without bothering to trace "antisemite" - this is Bobad's input to that thread

Isn't that rich coming from a Jew hater.

This perfectly illustrates the persistence and obsessiveness of Jew hating ideologues.

And they try to make everyone believe that they are not Jew haters.....lol.

I don't need anonymity to call proven Jew haters what they are.

Well Shaw, you've been shown to be a proven liar, a bigot, a hypocrite and a Jew hater. Is that succinct enough for you?

For the first time in history, an indigenous people regained self determination on ancestral land they had been exiled from and the Jew haters can't get over it.

That's an example of the typical rhetoric of Jew haters.

By people who know a fuck of a lot more about warfare than a couple of Jew haters on a folk music forum.

Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters.


Most people argue on these threads - the "bickering and bad feeling comes in response to tthis abuse - which is the tip of the iceberg for this individual
It may be "silly" to you - not sure the six million would have agreed with you had they not ended up exterminated
I was brought up to respect all races and cultures and when little jobbies like this individual starts slinging his obscenities about it's about time he was stopped
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:19 PM

OK, I guess I have to admit that bobad does seem to be an intentional troll. The "jew hater" thing was something you guys had been fussing about long before bobad got involved, and bobad picked up on it. He set the bait, and you guys bit the hook.
If you guys could just stick with rational discussion....
Maybe not. I tried that in the Easter Rising thread last year, and still got burned by bobad. That's when I realized he was evil.
So, about Stalin and the Spanish Civil War?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM

" and bobad picked up on it."
er - no actually
Nobody has eer called my a Jew hater in my life - I would have been kicked out of home on my arse has someone even hinted I was - taht's how serious I take it
Paople have hited that I am an antisemitism occasionally - but "Jew Hater is all Bobad's own work
I suggest he be asked to desist and if he continues he be kicked out on his arse
Stalin and Spain
I've already put a bit of it up but I'm happy to continue
Soviet Russia was one of those participants that insisted that it should be a fight against fascism and not a revolution - the argument was one of the reasons why Trotsky ended up wearing an ice-pick for a hat
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 04:13 PM

When I was an apprentice or slightly after, an old labourer worked with me, he was an ex-railwayman LNER and a Communist Party member, spent about forty years on the railway and ended up Fireman on the "Flying Scotsman" he had lived in London for most of these years, although born and bred in Perth. It was he that got me interested in Socialism.

Anyway he lived through the era of Oswald Mosley and British Fascism, was involved in the Anti Fascist street fighting at that time, Cable Street etc....he told me that the fights were solely between the Fascists and the Communists, well organised battles in which the two sides were pretty evenly matched.......he was amazed at the apparent apathy of the ordinary uncommitted Londoners, "They used to just stand around and watch" he said


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 04:37 PM

"I dunno. I searched and searched under "jew-hater" and "jew hater," and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such. The term is used dozens of times by those who accuse others of using the term. So, what am I to conclude?"

Stop being so bloody annoying, Joe. The only reason you've reached your misguided conclusion is that you have not read the posts in which the term appears. Doing a search, finding a number then concluding that your usual suspects have "used" the term is extremely unfair. We have not. Wisely or not, we have reacted to bobad's use of the term. USE, Joe. He is the only person who has USED the term. You seriously need to,
review your position. I'm very glad, however, that you have at least recognised that bobad is a troll. I have a number of PMs from mods that say it in private. Good for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM

For "liberal" read "fascist"

Thank you, I now add "fascist" to my list.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 06:24 PM

"I...got burned by bobad. That's when I realized he was evil."

Evil Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:00 PM

If you want to discuss the Spanish Civil War, Joey, how about you read up on it first so you can discuss it intelligently?

Also, meant to ask this a while back-
Fatima... a military honor guard is part of the nightly procession at the shrine, led by a uniformed soldier carrying a neon cross like a flag

Do they also have jugglers, clowns, soothsyers and carnival rides?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM

"Joe is one of a rare breed ....a real liberal.
Read what he says and learn.....most of you are not fit to lace his boots"

While Joe may be a thoroughly good man, when I read this I was really inclined to puke at the sycophancy.

Apologies to you Joe, but I am not about to fawn to you or anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:54 PM

So, Mr. Greg, you don't get it. You have failed to demonstrate to us that you have a brain that is in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea. You can throw insults, but you actually are unable to discuss the Spanish Civil War intelligently.

I HAVE read up on the Spanish Civil War to a reasonable extent, all my life; and I ask a serious question: To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco? Was it fear of Communism that was the primary reason for the U.S. support of Franco? Was it the fact that Franco provided military bases to the U.S. after the Spanish Civil War? Why in the world would the U.S. be friendly to a dictator like Franco?

Answer the question, Greg. If you can't, then have the courage to admit it. I really want to know the answer to my question, and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling that ruins all attempts the rest of us make at having a serious discussion. I give a rat's ass about who calls whom what. I want to be able to discuss interesting things here without the bullying interference of you and the other Usual Suspects on both left and right.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:18 PM

and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling that ruins all attampts the rest of us make at having a serious discussion.

It would rather seem, Joe, that in this particular instance at least YOU are the major source and perpetrator of the petty squabbling you pretend to abhor.

You'd best review your own postings on this thread before calling the kettle black, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM

Why can't you answer my question, Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM

Oh and Joe - if you have indeed read up on the Spanish Civil War & the state of the rest of Europe & the U.S. at that time you should be able to answer your own question(s). There's been plenty written about all of it.


Now, about those clowns and jugglers......


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM

Raggytash, I don't suppose Joe cares greatly what you or I think of him. Joe and I have clashed over many issues and agreed on a few; the important thing to me is that Joe remains rational at all times, he is straight and does not use abuse like racist, homophobe etc in place of rational argument.

This thread has been ruined by deletions and were it not for the OP would certainly have been closed....as too many inconvenient truths have been appearing.
I have repeatedly tried to be rational and answer Jim's abuse, to have my post removed within minutes.

Politics in the UK in the thirties were much more polarised than they are today....Communism was perceived as a great danger to our way of life, and Fascism regarded by many as an antidote.

As ever Divide and rule became the order of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM

"Thank you, I now add "fascist" to my list."
That was a quote from Akenataton - he was asked to define "liberal" - he said he meant "fascist"
You started this Bobad - whenever someone criticised Israel, they automatically became a "Jew hater" - this dates back years
I've asked that if you continue with this you be expelled - I hope that will happen - if it doesn't, I will seek to have you thrown out on your arse again.
End of story
The fight against fascism in the thirties was just that - a fight against fascism
The Right-wing press at the time, led by Rothermere's Daily Mail, who openly backed Mosely, distorted it as between Communists and Fascists, and many people fell for it and allowed Mosely to hold his meetings - in fact the protests were a spontaneous opposition to the menace emanating from Germany
My family were typical; they had no political affiliation - they voted labour - that was it.
As far as the Soviet Union was concerned, their policy had evolved into 'Socialism in one country', a form of isolationism.
Trotsky had evolved his theory of 'The Permanent Revolution', suggesting that outside pressure from Capitalist countries would eventually bring about the downfall of Socialism if there was no co-operation between the international revolutionary groups.
Stalin opposed the policy, Trotsky was exiled and eventually murdered.
The Communist parties went into Spain to oppose fascism, not to export revolution - Russia provided weapons for the republicans, these were notoriously out-of-date and inadequate - they were preparing for what they regarded as an inevitable war with Germany.
While the Civil War was at its height, groups like the The Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM), formed by formed by Spanish Trotskyists Andres Nin and Joaquin Maurin, began to demand revolution and fighting broke out between them and those who supported the Soviet line.
Ken Loach's film, 'Land and Freedom' depicted the conflict between the two groups perfectly.
Spain was never an attempted revolution, it was a civil war brought about by split between Nationalists wishing to maintain a status quo which had brought about mass poverty and hardship throughout the country and those wishishing to improve conditions.
Franco - a fascist General, staged a coup against the elected Republican Government and lefts and middle of the roaders throughout the world volunteered in their thousands
Most had linked the events in Spain to the rise of Fascism in Germany.
Just like with the Anti Mosely demonstrations, the riht wing press and the Government in Britain depicted it between Communists and fascists and criminalised those who went to fight
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:38 AM

I used to work as a German linguist and intelligence analyst, and I have a passable understanding of most non-Slavic European languages. I have a pretty good understanding of the history and culture and politics of most European nations, but I have to admit that Spain and Portugal are still a bit of a mystery to me. I've been to both nations and I enjoyed my time there, and my Spanish is pretty good. I've studied the rudiments of the history of both Spain and Portugal, but somehow I haven't developed the level of understanding that I have of most European nations.

The "Jew-hater" part of this discussion got tiresome, but maybe a thread on Spain is a good place for it. After all, Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism. There was a strong Jewish presence in Spain from before the time of Christ, and it appears that Jews prospered and lived quite peacefully for much of the time until Ferdinand and Isabella expelled or converted all the Jews of Spain in 1492. But there are still many vestiges of Judaism in the culture and language of Spain - ever wonder why Saturday is called "Sabado" in Spanish?

There were times when Spain was very powerful and prosperous, but the decline of Spain began with the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588, and then the loss to the U.S. in the Spanish America War in 1898. I get the impression that things went downhill quickly in the 1900s. Although Spain had a democratic government in the early 20th century, the economy was weak and there was strong opposition to the Spanish Republic. Franco offered power and prosperity and a return to monarchy, and he had a high level of popularity. In the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), Franco prevailed. He was supported by Italy and Germany, and by the ultra-conservative Catholic Opus Dei organization. He was opposed by the Soviet Union and the International Brigades, but most other nations remained neutral and ignored Franco's human rights atrocities. He ruled over Spain as a military dictator for 36 years from 1939 until his death in 1975. During his rule, Spain became a modern nation and a member of NATO.

In the first post of this thread, Geoff Lawes expresses support of a proposed UK parliamentary resolution that honors the International Brigades. I highly respect what the International Brigades attempted to do, but I'm not so sure that such a resolution is a good idea, all these years later. The wounds of that time of conflict have mostly healed, but I'm afraid that such a resolution would only serve to open old wounds.

I admire the idealism of young people who went to Spain from all over the world to join the International Brigades; but they were untrained, unorganized, and and ineffective. Spain has been free from Franco's rule since 1975, but there is still much that divides the country. How will honoring the Brigades serve to preserve the unity and peace of Spain? I tend to err on the side of caution - what good would such a resolution accomplish?

I asked Greg a number of questions. The questions require an educated opinion, not a right or wrong answer. But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.
  • To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco?
    To a great extent, to the point where many considered the members of the International Brigades to be "dupes" of the Soviets (remember when the term "Soviet dupe" was used often?).
  • Was it fear of Communism that was the primary reason for the U.S. support of Franco?
    I think so - there was a great fear of Communism in the U.S. from the 1930s to the time of Reagan. Anybody who was opposed to Communism, was considered to be a friend of the U.S.
  • Was it the fact that Franco provided military bases to the U.S. after the Spanish Civil War? Why in the world would the U.S. be friendly to a dictator like Franco?
    Torrejón Air Base and Naval Station Rota and other bases were hugely important to the United States during the Cold War, making it unlikely that the U.S. would speak out against Franco's regime - even though his human rights abuses were well known.

But no, I still can't say I understand Spain.

-Joe-


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