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BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support

Joe Offer 16 Jul 17 - 01:32 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 10:16 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 09:50 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 09:32 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 08:56 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 08:33 PM
bobad 15 Jul 17 - 08:26 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 08:10 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:41 PM
robomatic 15 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:02 PM
Jeri 15 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 06:46 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 06:40 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 06:38 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 06:31 PM
bobad 15 Jul 17 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 06:12 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM
akenaton 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 05:22 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 04:33 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 03:51 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 03:48 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 03:18 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 12:26 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 10:36 AM
bobad 15 Jul 17 - 10:13 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 17 - 10:00 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 17 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM
akenaton 15 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 09:18 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 07:54 PM
Raggytash 14 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 07:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jul 17 - 06:24 PM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 04:37 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:32 AM

I see that three people got all upset about my suggestion that "Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism." I can't understand why that was so upsetting.

Read the entire passage that I wrote:
    After all, Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism. There was a strong Jewish presence in Spain from before the time of Christ, and it appears that Jews prospered and lived quite peacefully for much of the time until Ferdinand and Isabella expelled or converted all the Jews of Spain in 1492. But there are still many vestiges of Judaism in the culture and language of Spain - ever wonder why Saturday is called "Sabado" in Spanish?


It's my understanding that the Jewish community in Spain in 1492 was large, and it was well-integrated into Spanish society and quite prosperous. It seems to me that it was a situation very similar to Germany of the 1930s. There were pogroms and persecutions throughout the history of Judaism, but I think that 1492 Spain was the first time that all Jews were cleansed from a nation - all at the same time. Please note that I said 1492, not the 1930s. Perhaps you question my use of the word "modern" for 1492, but many "modern" European languages passed from "middle" to "modern" at just about that time.

Is it so appalling that I would say such a thing? If so, please explain why.

Damn. I can't figure you guys out.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:16 PM

Oh, Greggy, we could talk about the International Brigades, the subject of this thread. Do you have an opinion on the subject, Greggy? We're all waiting with bated breath to hear what you have to say. I beg for enlightenment.

Yes, I know that Wikipedia says this: "The International Brigades (Spanish: Brigadas Internacionales) were paramilitary units set up by the Communist International to assist the Popular Front government of the Second Spanish Republic during the Spanish Civil War. The organisation existed for two years, from 1936 until 1938. It is estimated that during the entire war, between 32,000 and 35,000 members served in the International Brigades, including 15,000 who died in combat; however there were never more than 20,000 brigade members present on the front line at one time."

I can read quite well. I learned how in Catholic school, although Steve Shaw probably thinks that could not possibly be satisfactory.

But note that fact: "the International Brigades were paramilitary units set up by the Communist International."

That gets me nervous on two fronts:

  • "Paramilitary" troops make me even more nervous than "military" troops do.
  • They were set up by COMINTERN, which I learned from youth was an entity set up for the purpose of World Domination. What I heard as a youth may or may not be completely true, but I haven't really seen many good examples of Communism striving toward self-determination and individual rights - and that also makes me nervous.


So, Greggy, what do you know about the International Brigades, and what do you think of them? I'm still working really hard to encourage you to disprove this peabrain thing....

I really, honestly, can't figure out why you are so averse to expressing an actual opinion on the issues discussed in our threads.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM

HUMILITY Joey?? You? After all your foregoing postings??

It is to laugh. Or, possibly, puke.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:02 PM

OK, Stevie, I've decided, but I thought I already said it. Nobody here is a Jew-hater, so all that name-calling is just fluff. Don't pay it no nevermind, and get on to discussing interesting things instead of all this petty squabbling.

You talk of my "crutch of religion to afford [me] a fake certainty" - and yet I'm the one saying there IS no certainty.

Guess I gotta go figure that one out....

-Joe Offer-

P.S. And hey, I like my friggin' patron saints. They inspire me. I can think of none better than Charlie Brown and Alfred E. Neuman. I think they're a very Catholic sort of patron saints.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 09:50 PM

Make your mind up. Decide for yourself who's a Jew-hater and who isn't. You are very inconsistent. And stand on your own two feet and leave your patron saints behind. They won't even notice you've dropped them and you won't even notice they've gone. In the words of Beethoven, o man, help yourself. And there is no absolutism here. Every fair-minded poster here is full of doubt. You can't see it because you have your crutch of religion to afford you a fake certainty, and you can't take others' expressions of demurral. You mistake robust challenge for absolutism, when, all the time, it's you who's the absolutist. Well, probably. Get that?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 09:32 PM

Robomatic said a lot of things that were important, but I'd like to focus on just one: I actually don't think of anyone as a "Jew-hater". (although I would have put the period inside the quotation marks - is that a European thing?)

But really, I believe that there is not one single "Jew-hater" among the regulars here at Mudcat. We've have a few true bigots stop in here now and then, and we've usually deleted their remarks. But most of the people here, both liberal and conservative, are pretty good people - I think that covers the spectrum from Akenaton to Greg_F to Steve Shaw, and most of the others. I called Bobad "evil," but I'm not sure I truly believe that.

Still, you are an interesting lot to watch. It bothers me to accept it, but I guess I have to admit that those who participate in Internet discussions tend toward absolutism. They stick to a point of view, and they have a very difficult time accepting other positions.

As for me, I tend to follow my patron saints:

  • Mad Magazine's Alfred E. Neuman, whose slogan is "What? Me Worry?"
  • Charlie Brown, who is infamous for being wishy-washy.

    And another aphorism that Charlie Brown constantly hears is this: "You're a blockhead, Charlie Brown" - wise words, indeed.
    And from that I learn that when Steve Shaw calls me a "patronizing bastard," that's his opinion - and he has a right to it. I never did figure out what or whom Jeri is talking about with her "stench of assumed superiority," but whatever.


Both of my patron saints teach me a lot of things, but their primary lesson is this: humility. And from that, I derived this eternal truth: I have a right to my opinion, but I do not have a right to have my opinion prevail. That being the case, I'm best off listening to all parties and trying to find some sort of common ground that will approach satisfaction for everybody. I will never find the perfect answer, so I'm best off exchanging ideas with other people and seeing what we can work out together.

Now, I realize that this will not be satisfactory to those of you who are convinced that you always know the Truth, but I think we're better off exchanging ideas and information and coming up with something together.

If that's being a "patronizing bastard," so be it. Speaking up for pacifism in this bunch, is a tough act.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:56 PM

There's an amazing ceramics factory in Alhabia, a couple of miles from where we stay. Our house is full of their colourful stuff. We love it! Our favourite evening bar is in Huecija, a half-hour walk away, though we always do a ritual walk from Padules to Almócita too, where we can sit under the shade of the trees and reward ourselves with ice-cold Cruzcampo. I think that Almócita is one of my favourite places on earth. A few miles away there's a gorgeous outdoor pool at Ohanes where Mrs Steve and my sister love to swim, I can doze under the trees and where, after the exertions of the day, we can consume the superb Alhambra beer, ice-cold of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:33 PM

I forgot to mention the several tons of picota cherries that I'll buy so that I can sit under the stars gorging myself in a most unadvisable manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:26 PM

Good post Robomatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 08:10 PM

ANYWAY - sod this! I spend at least a week a year in Spain, specifically Andalucía, and I always go when it's bloody hot. I'll be off there soon but you won't know when. I'll report back. Andalucía is a wonderful leftie part of Spain. I'll see no tourists for a week, I'll see no policemen and I will not be ripped off anywhere I go. It'll be village bars, ice-cold Cruzcampo and local wine and tapas every night, unless I decide to fire up the barbie with the exceptional fare I can buy at the superb indoor market in Almería. We'll stop there shortly after we get off the plane. We'll buy a massive tub of olives, a kilo or two of raf tomatoes and a ton of the best fresh fish you can buy anywhere. There's a brilliant little cafe just outside the market where we will have several coffees and a massive pile of churros for just a euro or three. Sod the calories! I will spend a lot less than if I was staying at home. A good few years ago I spent time in northern Spain. I reckon that the populace in Castile-León would have El Caudillo back in a heartbeat. There's no accounting for taste.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:41 PM

You don't deserve bites. You talk utter rubbish. Try to engage with the real world is my advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:36 PM

I attempted to weigh in much earlier in the thread strictly to the OP. I volunteered first a witticism, a quote from a movie, then a more thought out response, mentioning that one would hope that those with anti-fascist proclivities don't have to go eighty years in the past for their self praise.
Anyhow, there was some back-and-forth going on that seemed more repetitive than productive between the usual suspects. I didn't contribute other than to ask if anyone had figured out my first post "Mary McGregor!" Steve Shaw replied with a hostile and slightly condescending post which I took as complimentary (In the first place he bothered to respond and he referred to my writing as 'dense').
Then those posts disappeared. They were 'moderated' with all the dexterity of Gumby Theatre. They had been a legitimate part of the thread and not abusive.
I was unaware of other disappearances but I suppose that some of the personal attacks may have been eliminated.
Then I saw that some of the posters who have, in other threads, gone severely Israel-averse were themselves bringing up Jews in this thread (among themselves) in a manner of 'how dare others accuse us of being anti-Semitic when our forefathers were fighting the fascists for them.' It was too too much like apprecisating the victims, the dead victims, while ignoring their living descendants. Including the phrase "their Jews are not my Jews".
This is an indicator of a manner of thinking that is more ideological than thoughtful. As a friend told me : "having ideas is the opposite of ideological- then the ideas have YOU".
In general, in Mudcat, over many years I have actually avoided accusing ANYONE of antisemitism, until recently, and when I ventured forth, I saved that for one person only, although there are probably a couple more who deserve the term, such as it is. Just as the phrase "it's not personal" invariably means that it IS personal, the ones who most blatantly beat their own breasts as to their innocence are the most likely to possess the toxoplasmosis of bias.
I actually don't think of anyone as a "Jew-hater". It's not a useful term to use in these threads. I am not a mind reader. I think most of the hate in these threads is defensive in nature, folks saving face as their precious words are mocked and their motives denigrated. To me that does not advance a position or achieve progress in understanding a theme. I have resurrected a far older term from the past: "Jew baiter". This applies to certain people who go pre-emptive on terms that we all know will draw fire from the usual subjects. I have long since decided that I get to decide what I will be drawn by.
There is also a distinction to be made between fascists and Nazis. The fascists under Mussolini for example were great believers in totalitarianism, and their greatness and their right of dominance over other cultures. The Nazis in Germany were race-based persecutors above all else. This was science to them. It wasn't until Fascist Italy was occupied by Nazi Germans that Italian Jews were sent to Concentration Camps. The Nazis were going to eliminate ALL Jews and then build museums about the extinct race, where they got to define everything about them. Sort of like when some members of this thread thought that the living Jews had been moderated out. Then it was time to talk about them. Those "Jews are not my Jews". Snarky and cowardly at the same time.

Some of the anti-semitism derives from a good Soviet background: When Israel was a young up-and-coming state of people who perceived themselves as 'young pioneers' and came from organizations with names like "Bund" and who lived in Socialist enclaves called kibbutzim they garnered plenty of pinko love. The Soviet Union was the first country to formally recognize Medinat Israel. I remember an Arab speaker at the United Nations mentioning this with bittersweet irony during the televised U.N. hearings just after the Six-Day War.
But over time Israelis of the Jewish and Muslim and Christian persuasion have avoided the societal meltdowns of their neighbors and actually seen their economic conditions improve. They have achieved multi-party multi-ethnic multi-racial society and gone, sigh, capitalist in a big way. Israel is a beacon of entrepreneurial creativity in a region that is barren by comparison.
But other Middle Eastern countries have not. They still insist on forming organizations with names that include the words 'liberation' and 'front'. This makes certain knee-jerk would-be socialists, well, jerk their knees. For them time does not move on. They see multi-racial Israel and call it racist. They see mono-cultural countries all around her, seeking to become MORE mono-cultural, and say nothing. How powerful words are when they are used as cover: "liberation front" "hearts and minds" "shock and awe" "patriot act" "freedom fries" "dialectical materialism". It has been ever thus.

By the way, if there IS a moderator worthy of the name, what about that totally unrelated message from Vashta Nerada Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM
It has no reason to be in this thread. It deserves its own thread if the poster so desires. That would be an elimination which would enhance this thread.

And still, no bites on "Mary McGregor!" ?????


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM

You've confused us, Jeri. But we can probably live with it. 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

"Stench of assumed superiority"?

Surely you meant to apply that to Joey O.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:02 PM

I invite you to explain that post, Jeri. Could be that I'm going through a thick phase tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM

Should've called him "Grasshopper" or "my son" instead of "Steve" to reinforce that stench of assumed superiority.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:46 PM

Agreed, Greg. And don't even think you can rise to the ranks of being a believable patronising bastard, Joe. You are nowhere near.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:40 PM

Maybe it's a good idea to acknowledge our own imperfections.

Yeah, give it a try yourself, Joey.

Can we get a responsible moderator to shut down this Offer guy?- why anyone have to put up with his personal attacks, name calling, combative BS and trollism?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:38 PM

There are no certainties, Steve. Once you've been able to learn that lesson, you've taken a big step.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:31 PM

Oh, but he hasn't, boobs. Like most cowards he's peppered his smears with quite a few "probablies." He is insecure in his knowledge of the subjects he's prattling about and, unlike you, he steers clear of spade-a-spade certainties. I suppose, unlike you, he's sensible enough to avoid overt bigotry. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:21 PM

Bravo Joe, it's about time someone else has the courage to call a spade a spade.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 06:12 PM

Oh, don't you worry, Joe. I've been thinking about it for the last hour. And what I think is that you have sided with the very worst troll on this forum (would you like me to tell the forum what you've told me about him in your private messages?) in order to call lifelong fighters against all forms of racism Jew-haters. You have an incredibly facile and superficial understanding of the Arab/Israeli conflict, clearly based on ignorance, that you should be embarrassed to air. And, comically, though I'm hardly laughing, you now have akenaton in bed with you. You must be feeling really happy tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM

Think about what I said about that "Jew-hater" thing again. Nobody in this life comes out completely pure, or completely right. Maybe it's a good idea to acknowledge our own imperfections.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 05:45 PM

I'm afraid that the truth hurts gang, its about time your self righteous ranting was put into perspective.
Jim is a hater of everything and everybody except those who share his views formulated in the 1930's and long since found wanting.

We inhabit what could be a brave new world, the establishment is crumbling, old ideologies have been proved ineffective, old remedies no longer fit for purpose.......maybe at last we will accept unity, think deeply about moral issues, perhaps rediscover theology and reject crass materialism.......Not while Steve and Jim are steering the ship.

It took guts for Joe to take on the bullies, for that is what you are, childish bullies who NEVER question your ideologies, they are set in stone.....real liberalism could never survive in the mythical neverland that you people inhabit.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 05:22 PM

One assumes that this thread won't survive the appalling turn it's just taken. I can't believe that a man who has been a pillar of strength on this forum for years is behaving like this. It seems to have been going this way for several days. Who'd have thought that he'd get into bed with bobad? Unbelievable.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:53 PM

Joey, after all the confrontational, irrelevant, personal attack bullshit you've posted on this thread, what gives you the impression I give two shits what you think?

My quotations of your statements were accurate.

The best I can figure is that you're here to do battle, but you don't want to expose yourself to attack by actually expressing an opinion.

Well, you figure wrong. And if you actually bother to look before flapping your jaw, you will see that I have often expressed an opinion about a great deal of things. Your problem is that you don't like those opinions. As for "being here to do battle" lets discuss the obvious trolling you've done on this thread and elsewhere.



As for acts of cowardice, lets talk about your hiding behind moderator status to post exactly what you most complain about what others post.

And if you do take the risk and post an intelligent thought

An intelligent thought on the order of "Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism" perhaps?

Or "If you've been called a Jew-hater, you probably are a Jew-hater.

Give us all a fucking break.

I promise that we will all be duly impressed.

Who the fuck are "WE", Joey?

Attaboy, Greggy!

Fuck off, Joey.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:33 PM

What an utter arsehole you are, Joe Offer. You are completely out of your depth in this conversation. And let me tell you something for nothing. Being called an utter arsehole is ten times milder than being called a Jew-hater when you've spent your life fighting racism. If your church doesn't do confessions until Monday, then make sure you don't get run over by a bus until then. How dare you suggest that people you don't know are Jew-haters. Go to hell, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:51 PM

Maybe the Magdelene Nuns who describd their victims as "the sweepings of the street" were speaking the truth - waddya think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:48 PM

"There may be truth in the allegation. "
And if you think it's true ou have at the very least to produce a scrap of evidence indicating it is true
That is one appalling thing t say Joe - without evidence
No wonder our church is in the sorry state it is if that is your idea of Christian thinking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:18 PM

Goddam. Look at that. Greg F actually posted something in a thread that was actually about the topic of discussion....not that he actually had an opinion of his own to express on the matter, but he did actually copy-paste something that pertained to the topic.
Attaboy, Greggy!

And Greggy, if you copy-paste what I say, be careful how you excerpt it. What I said was this: You have failed to demonstrate to us that you have a brain that is in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea.

You still have the opportunity to demonstrate otherwise. And if you do take the risk and post an intelligent thought, I promise that we will all be duly impressed. But for some crazy reason, you spend years at a discussion forum and do your best to avoid actually contributing to the discussions. The best I can figure is that you're here to do battle, but you don't want to expose yourself to attack by actually expressing an opinion. It's an interesting tactic, but I think it's basically an act of cowardice.




As for you who are so annoyed at being called Jew-haters, let me say this: If you've been called a Jew-hater, you probably are a Jew-hater. And maybe it's a worthwhile reminder that you need to reassess your opinion about Israel. Once upon a time, when the Exodus book and movie were still fresh in people's minds and Israel had a Labor Party government, the Israelis were the darlings of the American and European Left.

But then came the Palestinian Question and a series of Likud governments, and supporting Israel became downright unfashionable among the American and European Left. I started to hear leftists say really nasty things about Israel and Israelis. They still feel a little guilty that their opposition to Israel might be seen as antisemitic, but they cover that up with platitudes and denials.

The horrible truth is that Israel is a lovely country, and the Israelis have worked wonders with land that was once considered worthless. The Israeli people are friendly and tend to be well-educated, and they tend toward liberal political perspectives and maybe even pacifism.

But Israel confronts an impossible situation, and there is no solution in sight. It's clear that the Israelis have a right to be where they are; but it's also clear that the Palestinians also have a right to be there - and to share in the prosperity of Israel. But they don't trust each other, so they can't live together and they each do really awful things in an attempt to protect their own legitimate interests.

I hope that one day there will be a solution, but I don't know what that solution will be. In the meantime, liberals will continue to say things that are really hurtful and unfair to Israelis - and to Jews in general.

The situation in Israel is still unresolved, and seems to be impossible. There was a situation in Ireland that also seemed impossible, but it now seems to have been resolved. Still, the wounds are there, and it wouldn't take much provocation to reopen those wounds.

The situation in Spain more-or-less resolved itself with the death of Franco, but not really. Separatist movements keep arising in Spain, and the country could fall apart at any moment. Support of the International Brigades could serve to reopen wounds, so I think the proposed UK resolution is not a good idea.

But anyhow, if somebody calls you a Jew-hater, take the opportunity to think about it. There may be truth in the allegation. And in the meantime, be aware that many of us consider the years-long Mudcat Jew-hater debate to be tiresome, and we wish it wouldn't interfere with civil discussion here.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 12:26 PM

And now, back to the original purpose of this thread, to whit:

"commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism."


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 12:16 PM

"Any comment on the usage of terms such as "Nazi", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist", "fascist" etc. which, if searched, appear with a far greater frequency than Jew hater? Or do you not consider these terms to be offensive, abusive and defamatory when used by you and your friends?"

Yeah, I have a comment. They can be offensive and abusive depending on the context in which they are used. They are seldom used here in a context in which there isn't some baiting going on from both sides of the squabble. Defamatory? Only if they are untrue. You don't defame someone by telling it like it is, unhelpful though it might be. The reason they appear far more frequently than Jew hater is that the latter is USED by you alone. Jew hater is always defamatory here because it is never true, not in the remotest way. Significantly, it is never USED by anyone else except you. You seem very slow to pick up on that important point, which is a shame, as it really ought to stay your typing finger. When you call people Jew haters you are entirely on your own. On the other hand, bigotry is on show with disappointing frequency here in a number of contexts. It may not help much to point it out when it shows its ugly face but I think it's OK to not let it pass. Naturally, you won't agree as you never see it in yourself. That's your personal tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 11:08 AM

By the way Bobad
I only have to put links up to two postings to confirm all those accusaions - those you dredged up from every single extremist "racist, bigoted Facist, Islamophobic site, from Muslim Watch to The White Supremacist to produce the largest collection of cut-n-pastes ever put up on this forum in order to prove that Muslims were "terrorist cultural degenerates" and had been as far back as Biblical times
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:39 AM

""Nazi", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist", "fascist""
They've all been used in context and have been qualified by argument
You refuse to do so - your only criterion is "opposition to Israeli policy"
You have never once produced a single example of "Jew hating" anf d you never will
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:36 AM

I totally agree with what Steve said about "Jew haters" and would only add that when these accusations come from someone who consistently links the actions of the State of Israel with The Jewish People as a whole, despite the clause in the European definition which clearly makes that "antisemitic" by definition, they move from being insulting to ridiculous.
This has now been compounded by the fact Bobad refuses top comment on the latest behavior of Israeli Regime in actually supporting antisemitic propaganda in Hungary because it serves their own political and personal interests to do so.   
According to Bobad, it is "Jew Hating" to mention that fact - utterly ludicrous
Back to Joe
"Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism."
Nonsense Joe - antisemitism is the oldest and most persistent for of cultural hatred - the use of The Jews as scapegoats has never altered or been "modernised" down the the centuries - in fact that which emerged in the 1930s was a return to the worst excess of antisemitism - the pogrommes, the ghettoisation, an eventually mass exterminatio carried out by the Nazis
This began long before The Spanish Civil War was twinkle in anybodies eyes
The International Brigades were a reaction to what was happening on the streets of Britain, not of Madrid - they were a fight against the rise of fascism that was being appeased by "democratic Governments" who regarded Hitler's behaviour not only acceptable, but welcome as long as it did not scare the British horses.
""Soviet dupe" was used often"
Yup - especially by such "democratic bodies as your own House Un-American Activities Committee
The Western economies taken a battering and the main victims (as usual) were the working families - many of the American and British People had taken heart from what happened in 1917 in Russia, when soldiers, workers and peasants got rid of their oppressors and given themselves a hope for a new future
That Stalin destroyed that hope is immaterial - the dream of change was planted into world thinking and might have been realised if, on the one hand, outside forces hadn't broken their necks trying to "Roll back the threat of Communism" and if Stalin, a failed priest and a lumpen peasant with a lumpen peasant's mentality, who had played virtually no part in Russian politics up to the point he seized power, had not deformed and corrupted the objectives of Socialism.
The description of Nazi Germany as "bulwark against Bolshevism" originated in the United States, I believe.
What Stalin did with his "Show Trials" in Moscow, McCarthy did in Moscow, and America's pouring burning petrol on Vietnamese Peasants and filling their lungs with carcinogenic chemicals for seven years ranks next to Stalin'e behaviour, with far less excuse.
Why was America friendly wit Franco?
Why were you friendly with Batista and Papa Doc and Marshall Kee and Papadopulis, and Pinochet - and every tinpot dictator you have embraced as your own right up to the present day - because it suits your philosophy and economic interests to be so - they are all natural developments of the present system in crisis.
America would rather have had Cuba as its open sewer, where Al Capone and his men went to launder money and watch Cuban girls being fucked by donkeys, than work with a leaded who gave the people the best health and education system in the world and held off the threat of invasion, assassination and for over half a century and avoid a return to the situation where six families owned most of the Country.
Please spare us the extremely partonising "Soviet dupes" bit - Capitalism has nothing to offer those who are not wealthy and privileged - it never has had.
The system that you Church had depended throughout its existence has had its day and there are strong signs that it is high time the Church itself went down the pan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:13 AM

The Jew-hater part of this discussion is more than tiresome. It is offensive, abusive and defamatory.

Any comment on the usage of terms such as "Nazi", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist", "fascist" etc. which, if searched, appear with a far greater frequency than Jew hater? Or do you not consider these terms to be offensive, abusive and defamatory when used by you and your friends?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 10:00 AM

I asked Greg a number of questions. The questions require an educated opinion, not a right or wrong answer.

Surely, Joey, you wouldn't want to entertain the opinions of someone who you consider to have , quote, "a brain that is [not] in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea."

Bit of a combative personal attack, by the way, is it not, Joey?

But I digress. To continue:

But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.

I understood it perfectly well. What YOU apparently don't understand- or pretend not to understand to score points (The Professorial "You lose" comes t mind) is that these questions have been exhaustively discussed in many books on the subject of Franco, the Spanish Civil War, and U,S. history of the period - which literature you claim to have read. Thus it would rather appear that I have called YOUR bluff.

I really want to know the answer to my question, and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling .....

And since you have answered your own questions, your asking them in the first place was patent trolling; so you are really not so tired of the squabbling, are you?

Sad.







But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 07:03 AM

The Jew-hater part of this discussion is more than tiresome. It is offensive, abusive and defamatory. The people who are targeted here are very far from being Jew haters. Jim can speak for himself, but I have worked for decades in multiracial communities and have confronted racism every single time I've come across it, often risking my own wellbeing to do so. Both Jim and I are staunch defenders of the right of Jewish people to live in peace without harassment, we abhor antisemitism and we know precisely what it is and what it isn't, unlike Keith, Teribus and bobad, who pursue a pro-Israeli regime agenda regardless of its behaviour. We have both stated these things many times. It's my view that the people who most threaten that aspiration for Jewish people are, by dint of their behaviour, the leaders of Israel and their supporters and lobbyists in western countries. Jim and I have been called Jew-haters for saying that. That is not "tiresome," Joe. That is plain wrong and the fact that the remark has been allowed to stand on this forum is a disgrace. A firm hand taken by moderators in stamping it out would see off most of the unpleasantness here. But you won't do it, oddly. Not often enough. Of course, this isn't my gig.

As for the US relationship with Franco, a murderous dictator, well the US always acts in what it perceives to be its own best interests. Nothing new about America-first Trumpism - it's just that he's decided to shout his version from the rooftops, that's all. There is a long and sorry history of the US propping up vicious dictators when it suits their cause, as well as their undermining democratically-elected left-wing governments. There is nothing unique or surprising in the relationship with Franco and you won't find any justification for his behaviour, either before, during or after the Civil War, by following that line of enquiry.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:38 AM

I used to work as a German linguist and intelligence analyst, and I have a passable understanding of most non-Slavic European languages. I have a pretty good understanding of the history and culture and politics of most European nations, but I have to admit that Spain and Portugal are still a bit of a mystery to me. I've been to both nations and I enjoyed my time there, and my Spanish is pretty good. I've studied the rudiments of the history of both Spain and Portugal, but somehow I haven't developed the level of understanding that I have of most European nations.

The "Jew-hater" part of this discussion got tiresome, but maybe a thread on Spain is a good place for it. After all, Spain may well be the birthplace of modern anti-Semitism. There was a strong Jewish presence in Spain from before the time of Christ, and it appears that Jews prospered and lived quite peacefully for much of the time until Ferdinand and Isabella expelled or converted all the Jews of Spain in 1492. But there are still many vestiges of Judaism in the culture and language of Spain - ever wonder why Saturday is called "Sabado" in Spanish?

There were times when Spain was very powerful and prosperous, but the decline of Spain began with the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588, and then the loss to the U.S. in the Spanish America War in 1898. I get the impression that things went downhill quickly in the 1900s. Although Spain had a democratic government in the early 20th century, the economy was weak and there was strong opposition to the Spanish Republic. Franco offered power and prosperity and a return to monarchy, and he had a high level of popularity. In the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), Franco prevailed. He was supported by Italy and Germany, and by the ultra-conservative Catholic Opus Dei organization. He was opposed by the Soviet Union and the International Brigades, but most other nations remained neutral and ignored Franco's human rights atrocities. He ruled over Spain as a military dictator for 36 years from 1939 until his death in 1975. During his rule, Spain became a modern nation and a member of NATO.

In the first post of this thread, Geoff Lawes expresses support of a proposed UK parliamentary resolution that honors the International Brigades. I highly respect what the International Brigades attempted to do, but I'm not so sure that such a resolution is a good idea, all these years later. The wounds of that time of conflict have mostly healed, but I'm afraid that such a resolution would only serve to open old wounds.

I admire the idealism of young people who went to Spain from all over the world to join the International Brigades; but they were untrained, unorganized, and and ineffective. Spain has been free from Franco's rule since 1975, but there is still much that divides the country. How will honoring the Brigades serve to preserve the unity and peace of Spain? I tend to err on the side of caution - what good would such a resolution accomplish?

I asked Greg a number of questions. The questions require an educated opinion, not a right or wrong answer. But since Greg didn't understand that, I think I called his bluff.
  • To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco?
    To a great extent, to the point where many considered the members of the International Brigades to be "dupes" of the Soviets (remember when the term "Soviet dupe" was used often?).
  • Was it fear of Communism that was the primary reason for the U.S. support of Franco?
    I think so - there was a great fear of Communism in the U.S. from the 1930s to the time of Reagan. Anybody who was opposed to Communism, was considered to be a friend of the U.S.
  • Was it the fact that Franco provided military bases to the U.S. after the Spanish Civil War? Why in the world would the U.S. be friendly to a dictator like Franco?
    Torrejón Air Base and Naval Station Rota and other bases were hugely important to the United States during the Cold War, making it unlikely that the U.S. would speak out against Franco's regime - even though his human rights abuses were well known.

But no, I still can't say I understand Spain.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM

"Thank you, I now add "fascist" to my list."
That was a quote from Akenataton - he was asked to define "liberal" - he said he meant "fascist"
You started this Bobad - whenever someone criticised Israel, they automatically became a "Jew hater" - this dates back years
I've asked that if you continue with this you be expelled - I hope that will happen - if it doesn't, I will seek to have you thrown out on your arse again.
End of story
The fight against fascism in the thirties was just that - a fight against fascism
The Right-wing press at the time, led by Rothermere's Daily Mail, who openly backed Mosely, distorted it as between Communists and Fascists, and many people fell for it and allowed Mosely to hold his meetings - in fact the protests were a spontaneous opposition to the menace emanating from Germany
My family were typical; they had no political affiliation - they voted labour - that was it.
As far as the Soviet Union was concerned, their policy had evolved into 'Socialism in one country', a form of isolationism.
Trotsky had evolved his theory of 'The Permanent Revolution', suggesting that outside pressure from Capitalist countries would eventually bring about the downfall of Socialism if there was no co-operation between the international revolutionary groups.
Stalin opposed the policy, Trotsky was exiled and eventually murdered.
The Communist parties went into Spain to oppose fascism, not to export revolution - Russia provided weapons for the republicans, these were notoriously out-of-date and inadequate - they were preparing for what they regarded as an inevitable war with Germany.
While the Civil War was at its height, groups like the The Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM), formed by formed by Spanish Trotskyists Andres Nin and Joaquin Maurin, began to demand revolution and fighting broke out between them and those who supported the Soviet line.
Ken Loach's film, 'Land and Freedom' depicted the conflict between the two groups perfectly.
Spain was never an attempted revolution, it was a civil war brought about by split between Nationalists wishing to maintain a status quo which had brought about mass poverty and hardship throughout the country and those wishishing to improve conditions.
Franco - a fascist General, staged a coup against the elected Republican Government and lefts and middle of the roaders throughout the world volunteered in their thousands
Most had linked the events in Spain to the rise of Fascism in Germany.
Just like with the Anti Mosely demonstrations, the riht wing press and the Government in Britain depicted it between Communists and fascists and criminalised those who went to fight
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM

Raggytash, I don't suppose Joe cares greatly what you or I think of him. Joe and I have clashed over many issues and agreed on a few; the important thing to me is that Joe remains rational at all times, he is straight and does not use abuse like racist, homophobe etc in place of rational argument.

This thread has been ruined by deletions and were it not for the OP would certainly have been closed....as too many inconvenient truths have been appearing.
I have repeatedly tried to be rational and answer Jim's abuse, to have my post removed within minutes.

Politics in the UK in the thirties were much more polarised than they are today....Communism was perceived as a great danger to our way of life, and Fascism regarded by many as an antidote.

As ever Divide and rule became the order of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM

Oh and Joe - if you have indeed read up on the Spanish Civil War & the state of the rest of Europe & the U.S. at that time you should be able to answer your own question(s). There's been plenty written about all of it.


Now, about those clowns and jugglers......


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:22 PM

Why can't you answer my question, Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:18 PM

and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling that ruins all attampts the rest of us make at having a serious discussion.

It would rather seem, Joe, that in this particular instance at least YOU are the major source and perpetrator of the petty squabbling you pretend to abhor.

You'd best review your own postings on this thread before calling the kettle black, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:54 PM

So, Mr. Greg, you don't get it. You have failed to demonstrate to us that you have a brain that is in any way dissimilar to the size, shape, and color of a pea. You can throw insults, but you actually are unable to discuss the Spanish Civil War intelligently.

I HAVE read up on the Spanish Civil War to a reasonable extent, all my life; and I ask a serious question: To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco? Was it fear of Communism that was the primary reason for the U.S. support of Franco? Was it the fact that Franco provided military bases to the U.S. after the Spanish Civil War? Why in the world would the U.S. be friendly to a dictator like Franco?

Answer the question, Greg. If you can't, then have the courage to admit it. I really want to know the answer to my question, and I am sick and tired of all this petty squabbling that ruins all attempts the rest of us make at having a serious discussion. I give a rat's ass about who calls whom what. I want to be able to discuss interesting things here without the bullying interference of you and the other Usual Suspects on both left and right.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:13 PM

"Joe is one of a rare breed ....a real liberal.
Read what he says and learn.....most of you are not fit to lace his boots"

While Joe may be a thoroughly good man, when I read this I was really inclined to puke at the sycophancy.

Apologies to you Joe, but I am not about to fawn to you or anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 07:00 PM

If you want to discuss the Spanish Civil War, Joey, how about you read up on it first so you can discuss it intelligently?

Also, meant to ask this a while back-
Fatima... a military honor guard is part of the nightly procession at the shrine, led by a uniformed soldier carrying a neon cross like a flag

Do they also have jugglers, clowns, soothsyers and carnival rides?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 06:24 PM

"I...got burned by bobad. That's when I realized he was evil."

Evil Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM

For "liberal" read "fascist"

Thank you, I now add "fascist" to my list.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 04:37 PM

"I dunno. I searched and searched under "jew-hater" and "jew hater," and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such. The term is used dozens of times by those who accuse others of using the term. So, what am I to conclude?"

Stop being so bloody annoying, Joe. The only reason you've reached your misguided conclusion is that you have not read the posts in which the term appears. Doing a search, finding a number then concluding that your usual suspects have "used" the term is extremely unfair. We have not. Wisely or not, we have reacted to bobad's use of the term. USE, Joe. He is the only person who has USED the term. You seriously need to,
review your position. I'm very glad, however, that you have at least recognised that bobad is a troll. I have a number of PMs from mods that say it in private. Good for you!


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