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BS: Catholic Abuse of Children

Jim Carroll 29 Jul 17 - 07:36 AM
akenaton 29 Jul 17 - 11:14 AM
Raggytash 29 Jul 17 - 12:08 PM
Teribus 29 Jul 17 - 12:27 PM
Teribus 29 Jul 17 - 12:31 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 17 - 12:35 PM
Raggytash 29 Jul 17 - 12:40 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 17 - 02:37 PM
Donuel 29 Jul 17 - 03:26 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 17 - 04:08 PM
Donuel 29 Jul 17 - 07:30 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 17 - 09:36 PM
akenaton 30 Jul 17 - 03:06 AM
Teribus 30 Jul 17 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 17 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 17 - 06:44 AM
CupOfTea 30 Jul 17 - 03:56 PM
Greg F. 30 Jul 17 - 06:22 PM
robomatic 31 Jul 17 - 02:06 PM
Joe Offer 31 Jul 17 - 10:33 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 17 - 04:33 AM
Joe Offer 01 Aug 17 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 17 - 06:38 AM
Raggytash 01 Aug 17 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 17 - 09:10 AM
Kenny B 01 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM
Joe Offer 01 Aug 17 - 08:51 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 17 - 03:39 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 17 - 09:02 AM
Joe Offer 02 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 17 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 17 - 12:42 PM
Joe Offer 02 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM
Joe Offer 02 Aug 17 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 17 - 03:22 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 17 - 03:27 PM
mg 02 Aug 17 - 10:16 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 17 - 03:28 AM
Joe Offer 03 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM
Joe Offer 03 Aug 17 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 17 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 17 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 17 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 17 - 05:50 AM
Joe Offer 03 Aug 17 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 17 - 06:06 AM
Joe Offer 03 Aug 17 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 17 - 06:12 AM
Joe Offer 03 Aug 17 - 06:23 AM
Iains 03 Aug 17 - 07:59 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 07:36 AM

Why has this been allowed to degenerate into one of Ake's soapboxes of homosexuality?
H attempted the same on the 'Male fertility' thread and threw in his other "liberal (fascist)" countries old favourite
This is trolling - pure and simple
If he had an argument, he would respond to what others have to say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 11:14 AM

"If he had an argument, he would respond to what others have to say"

Nobody else has said anything sensible about why the abuse happened, why it only happened in the Catholic Church, and why it was perpetrated mainly against post pubescent males.


If you have no answers please don't condemn those who point out the obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 12:08 PM

No one has said it only happens in the Catholic church though have they Ake you made that bit up. A few days ago I posted a similar item about the Buddhist faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 12:27 PM

Jeri - 28 Jul 17 - 10:03 PM

"But if you have any pre-pubescent daughters or grand-daughters, keep them well away from him, because he's obviously a heterosexual."
- As will the majority of all those daughters and grand-daughters prove to be Jeri old girl - Or does that count as a homophobic statement?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 12:31 PM

Didn't Jom claim that abuse by members of the Catholic Church was the greatest source of abuse in the twentieth century - Or some such twaddle - in a recent thread that was subject to "Closure". Turns out it amounts to less than 1%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 12:35 PM

"No one has said it only happens in the Catholic church"
This has been pointed out several times here and many times elsewhere Scoutmasters and schoolmasters have been mentioned specifically
Accuracy and honesty tends to fly out of th window in these discussions
There have also been numerous "answers" including the wielding of power
All this, you have chosen to ignore
The fact that same sex liaisons by non-homosexuals are common throughout the prison system are two examples regularly brought up as "answers" - you choose to ignore those also
Joe's point "I think it's mostly because priests at one time were more likely to have unsupervised contact with boys".... also ignored.
There are numerous answers, pretending that they haven't been offered appears to be your way of dealing with them.   
It is significant that, throughout the campaign against the Same Sex Marriage referendum here in Ireland, never once was the matter of clerical abuse raised as and example of the evils of homosexuality - not once
Homosexuality has nothing to do with these crimes and nobody has ever attempted to link the two - until now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 12:40 PM

It does seem to be prevalent amongst members of the clergy, certainly in the UK


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 02:37 PM

I guess, in all fairness, I should point out that Akenaton is right about one thing. As Wikipedia says:
    Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.


Most of us use the term "sexual abuse of children," which refers to all children with whom sexual contact is illegal, but Jim and a few others incorrectly use the term paedophilia. We know what they mean and don't make an issue of it, but Akenaton wants to muddy the waters by spitting hairs and so he continually makes a big deal of it. And don't give me a hard time about my mixed metaphor - it's intentional.

The central fact is that a good number of priests, between 5 and 10 percent, had illegal sexual contact with children; and many dioceses were in a practice of covering up those crimes. I would suggest that for the most part, the coverups no longer take place. What we are arguing about, is a series of crimes that took place twenty or more years ago - and the more recent efforts to clean up the mess.

But that was then, and this is now. It is no longer advantageous to any bishop to cover up any crime of sex abuse - the cost is just too high, and too many eyes are watching. Steve Shaw says above:
    It would be really good to see an assertive, open, zero-tolerance approach to abuse from the Church. That is what we haven't seen and that's the problem.
I think that for the most part, zero-tolerance is a reality in the Catholic Church. No priest who is a sex offender has any hope for support or sympathy from the leadership of the Catholic Church. Yes, there is a lot of cleanup left to do for those long-ago crimes, and dioceses will continue to attempt to protect themselves from claims they deem unreasonable. But for the most part, the deeds were done long ago, and reparations have been paid or are in the process of being paid. The Industrial Schools were all closed long ago, and the Magdalene Laundries are no more. And most people no longer go to church, because it is no longer socially required. People who go to church nowadays, go because they want to.

Yes, sex offenders will continue to be a problem in the Catholic Church and other institutions, but the churches and other institutions now know that they cannot protect sex offenders with impunity. Catholic bishops have to retire at the age of 75, so almost all of the bishops who did the coverups are retired or dead.

Harshness and abuse were once accepted practices in the education of children, but this sort of abuse is no longer tolerated by society.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 03:26 PM

Joe, I do not envy you being between a ROCK (the Catholic Church) and a HARD PLACE (a safe haven for pedophiliacs).

Your accumulated knowledge of the fiasco is profound yet a few of your excuses are specious. There are worthy policies then there are realities. It is good to hear change is underway.

It sounds like you have been an instrument of transparency and healing which is to be congratulated. Just as Police are just doing their job, they are considered to be heroic at times when they bring criminals to justice. How many criminals have you captured or is it just academic.

It is for you to know and to feel pride despite your prejudice.

If it was easy everyone would do it.

I know the second thoughts that arise when exposing a Nazi war criminal. Its complicated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 04:08 PM

I did investigate a number of sex offenders, Donuel. The only one I could say that I caught, was a police officer. He tried all sorts of power games to thwart my investigation.
I also worked in my diocese to implement the no-tolerance policy for child sexual abuses.
Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 07:30 PM

that's paradoxically incongruous considering my mention of heroic police. yep, its complicated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 17 - 09:36 PM

Yeah, it's a paradox, Donuel; but law enforcement is another profession where sexual abuse is common. I think it has something to do with being in a position of both power and trust.

The police officer I caught, was up for promotion and I was doing his background check. The local police agency near his home had received a complaint that he had been rubbing ice on the genitals of his 11-yr-old stepdaughter. When I was out knocking on doors in his neighborhood, he had one of his subordinates check my license plates on the computer - and he made sure I knew he did it. He had somehow evaded prosecution at the time of the molestation, and was quite perturbed that I learned of it and was out asking questions.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 03:06 AM

"There are numerous answers, pretending that they haven't been offered appears to be your way of dealing with them."

The "answers" offered by you and a few others Jim, are not answers at all but inadequate excuses; especially the piece about "opportunity".

I was of course referring to excessive RATES of abuse when I said "it only happened in the Catholic Church"

My only mistake was in inserting the numbers 14 to 17,though I did follow it with (post pubescent). The actual numbers were 11 to 17.

These assaults were against post pubescent males and young men by adult males. Time to be honest about what happened in the Catholic Church, the criminals are the people who committed the crimes, they should be brought to court and the whole sordid business exposed. It would be good for the victims, good for the Church and good for society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 04:01 AM

Raggytash - 29 Jul 17 - 12:40 PM

"It does seem to be prevalent amongst members of the clergy, certainly in the UK"


NOT according to the UK statistics supplied by the link in Iains post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 04:08 AM

"The "answers" offered by you and a few others Jim, are not answers at all but inadequate excuses;"
Then you must take them and disprove them - Joe has made the point also
The Catholic church as I and my relatives knew it was rigidly divided sexually - the boys were under the care of the priests - the girls under the nuns
Even the masses were divided - the women sat on one side of the church the men on the other - the women were forbidden to enter the church without covering their heads
I haven't been to a morning mass since I was a child, but that was the memory that has remained with me - women all wearing head-scarves
The most horrific example of this division was the case of 'The Poor Clares' convent fire in Ennis (still shrouded in secrecy) - a case once described by Edna O'Brien on the BBC, but hardly written about
A fire broke out in the convent and the firemen were refused access - because they were - MEN!!
A number of the nuns were burned to death behind locked convent doors.
At the time these outrages were taking place, the priests did not have easy access to the girls without the co-operation of the nuns which wasn't particularly forthcoming as the Sisters were very protective of their power.
The priest had their way with what was at hand - the boys - the nuns beat the girls
It did happen that girls were turned over for the use of predatory men of course - that was covered in 'The Magdalene Girls', where it showed them being farmed out to wealthy donors to the Orders.
Same sex rape took place within the church as same sex liasons take place widely in prisons or did at sea - they took what was available - nothing to do with sexual preferences.
The same goes for the sexual bestiality that took place in remote rural occupations - as with naval practices, common enough to have its own repertoire of jokes.
You came up both a claim of numbers - you provided no evidence that they were real - you are an anachronistic one-off
You refuse to respond to evidence - you provide no evidence that you are for real
Your "rates" show no deep study of the situation that gave rise to these events - your random example includes hastily grasped opinions from extremist groups, as has been pointed out
No study in depth has ever taken place nor can it ever be while most of the evidence lies locked away in the Vatican Vaults
These are "homosexual attacks" only because you wish them to be "homosexual attacks"
Your own record of hatred of homosexuality underlines that fact
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 06:44 AM

A further example of the separation of the sexes by the Church was the systematic destruction of the crossroads farmhouse dances by the clergy, who in the case of the former, broke up the open-air meetigs in rural areas by force, sometimes smashing up the musical instruments
The excuse given was the "temptation of unsupervised meetings of young people"
The Government in co-operation with the church, taxed all gatherings for dancing and music making in the homes with "The Dance-Halls Act", driving dancers into the "Ballrooms of Romance"
Ken Loach's 'Jimmy's Hall' (about the only man ever deported from Ireland) covers this period excellently.

The Bishops statement

Evils of Dancing
Statement of the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland issued at their Meeting,
held in Maynooth, on 6th October, 1925.

To be read, until further notice, at the principal Masses, in all Churches on the first Sunday of each Quarter of the Ecclesiastical Year
We have a word of entreaty, advice and instruction, to speak to our flocks on a very grave subject. There is danger of losing the name which the chivalrous honour of Irish boys and the Christian reserve of Irish maidens had won for Ireland. If our people part with the character that gave rise to that name, we lose with it much of our national strength, and still more of the high rank we have held in the Kingdom of Christ.
Purity is strength, and purity and faith go together. Both virtues are in danger these times, but purity is more directly assailed than faith. The danger comes from pictures and papers and drink. It comes more from the keeping of improper company than from any other cause; and there is no worse fomenter of this great evil than the dancing hall.
We know too well the fruits of these halls all over the country. It is nothing new, alas, to find Irish girls now and then brought to shame, and retiring to the refuge of institutions or the dens of great cities. But dancing halls, more especially, in the general uncontrol of recent years have deplorably aggravated the ruin of virtue due to ordinary human weakness. They have brought many a good, innocent girl into sin, shame and scandal, and set her unwary feet on the road that leads to perdition.
Given a few frivolous young people in a locality and a few careless parents, and the agents of the wicked one will come there to do the rest, once a dance is announced without proper control. They may lower or destroy the moral tone of the whole countryside.
Action has to be taken while the character of the people as a whole is still sound to stop the dangerous laxity that has been creeping into town and country.
Amusement is legitimate, though some of our people are overgiven to play. What, however, we condemn is sin and the dangerous occasions of sin. Wherever these exist, amusement is not legitimate. It does not deserve the name of amusement among Christians. It is the sport of the evil spirit for those who have no true self-respect.
The occasions of sin and sin itself are the attendants of night dances in particular. There may be and are exceptions, but they are comparatively few.
To say nothing of the special danger of drink, imported dances of an evil kind, the surroundings of the dancing hall, withdrawal from the hall for intervals, and the dark ways home have been the destruction of virtue in every part of Ireland.
The dancing of dubious dances on Sunday, more particularly by persons dazed with drink, amounts to woeful desecration of the Lord's Day wherever it takes place.
Against such abuses, duty to God and love of our people compel us to speak out. And what we have to say each for his own diocese, is that we altogether condemn the dangerous occasions, the snares, the unchristian practices to which we have referred.
Very earnestly do we trust that it may not be necessary for us to go further.
Our young people can have plenty of worthy dancing with proper supervision, and return home at a reasonable hour. Only in special circumstances under most careful control, are all-night dances permissible.
It is no small commendation of Irish dances that they cannot be danced for long hours. That, however, is not their chief merit, and, while it is no part of our business to condemn any decent dance, Irish dances are not to be put out of the place, that is their due, in any educational establishment under our care. They may not be the fashion in London or Paris. They should be the fashion in Ireland. Irish dances do not make degenerates.
We well know how so many of our people have of late been awaiting such a declaration as we now issue. Until otherwise arranged it is to be read at the principal Mass on the first Sunday of each Quarter of the Ecclesiastical Year. The priests will confer with responsible parishioners as regards the means by which it will be fully carried into effect. "And may the God of Peace Himself sanctify you in all things, that your whole spirit and soul and body may be blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Thess. V. 23).
(Signed),
X Patrick O�Donnell,
Archbishop of Armagh,
Chairman.
X Robert Browne,
Bishop of Cloyne,
X Thomas O�Doherty,
Bishop of Galway
Secretaries.
6th October, 1925.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: CupOfTea
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 03:56 PM

Difficult reading, to consider this entire thread. I survived 14 years of Catholic education, (Ursuline sisters), 8 years of Catholic summer camp (mostly Adrian, Michigan Dominicans) and never encountered any sexual impropriety firsthand, nor heard of it secondhand. Physical abuse peaked with Sr. Ancilla breaking flimsy hardware store wooden yardsticks while whacking at the young lads who vexed her.

It was only in later years that any of the sex abuse scandal touched me, and the fallout was the mandated sexual abuse training (VIRTUS) that I was required to take, as was every person in the Diocese of Cleveland, (clergy, religious, teacher, coach or volunteer) who would have contact with minors while associated with the church. While parts of it were educational, like pedophile "grooming" victims, other large parts of it made me deeply sad, as they were obviously rules designed so that there would be no way whatsoever that any accusations could stand against the adults. More than the "protecting God's children" it was clearly protecting the diocese's bottom line.

Some of the new rules about interaction tragically eliminated situations where some of the best mentoring could take place. Not touching a student without asking their permission gets weird when teaching anything physical - sports, arts, cooking, dance. Never being alone with a student without an open door- just how do you do that when you're helping her pin a close fitting garment she's trying on in clothing class?

The follow-up website work was disgustingly insulting of the intelligence of those of us required to take it. An aspect of the whole shebang that occurred to me was: someone is making a cartload of money with these mandated programs. I casually knew one of the priests who were cast out over sexual allegations; he'd been the priest at my wedding shortly after ordination. I thought him sweet and kind. Turns out he grew up to be a nasty martinet as a pastor & his staff were delighted to see him go for reasons that had nothing to do with sex & never found out what he was supposed to have done.

This spring I had to take a "refresher" that included updates in policy, particularly covering social media. I can be fired immediately should anything contrary to Catholic teaching shows up on any of my social media. There are things I will not "share" on Facebook & need to be careful who I let post on my page, because this situation is perfectly set up for a witch hunt that could cost me my job. I do not say that scrutiny should not happen, but I am sceptical of the cost (to the innocent)/ benefit (stopping abuse) analysis. The largest burden falls on the innocent & I do not know what metrics are used to judge the benefits- lack of lawsuits?

Joanne in Cleveland ( hoping the new bishop is s good as he seems)


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 17 - 06:22 PM

Ake, can you PLEASE take your idiotic homophobic bullshit somewhare else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:06 PM

You do not mess with basic human drives without consequences. Think of the forces within nature which one sublimates at one's peril. Think of grass bursting through sidewalks, of water wearing down rock, of Spock during pan farr. You can legislate, you can regulate, you can perorate, but everyone does it, or there be consequences.

Deuteronomy says thou shalt not muzzle the ox when it treads the grain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:33 PM

Well, Jim, that's an interesting anachronism. Interesting that the good Archbishop disapproves only of "imported" dances, particularly on Sunday. He seems to approve of Irish dances.

I used to chaperone dances in the parish hall of a Polish parish in Milwaukee in the 1960s. We did have a problem with girls smuggling alcohol inside their purses, and then the boys would get hold of it and get drunk and have fights. We had a bunch of young seminarians chaperone, but then one got beat up. After that, I was the only one allowed to chaperone because I was the only seminarian who knew all the kids. The kids liked playing bodyguard for me. Wherever I went, I was surrounded by three or four tough-looking boys.

They didn't do any Irish dances there....
No polkas, either - but adult dances at Milwaukee Catholic churches had polkas, and the Chicken Dance. Favorites at California Catholic dances for adults are "YMCA," "Give Me that Old-Time Rock 'n" Roll," and "Boot-Scootin' Boogie."

There was a beautiful, brilliant, wonderful young woman in that youth group who had a desperate crush on me. She was in tears when I told her I was intent on becoming a celibate priest....
Oh, but she was beautiful. The kind of woman you write songs about, years later. Her name was Merri. Tall, with long, silky hair and a beautiful smile. And a big heart....and I broke it - but I'll never forget her.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:33 AM

"Interesting that the good Archbishop disapproves "
You've ignored the rest Joe - not worthy of you
The church was responsible for taking Irish music from the homes and crossroads and putting it into commercial and tightly supervised hands
If you have Fintal Valelly's 'Companion to Irish Music', I suggest you read the long entry of 'The Dance Halls act'
Every Irish musicians we ever met and recorded cursed the priests for "destroying our music", as devout as they were - that continued to be an attitude right into the 1990s.
The Bishop was saying what the rest of them were doing - the forcible breaking up of dances, the smashing of musical instruments, the reading of names at Mass..... all grist to the church's mill.
It's as much a part of history as is 1917.
The problem with the church is that they were obsessed with sex and they believed that any unsupervised activities were "The Devil's Playground"
I have little doubt that one the Irish crossed The Pond the grip was broken - inevitable in a multi-racial and religious country like the U.S., but that's the way it remained back home in 'Holy Ireland'.
One of the great dichotomies was the contrast between what th Church said and what its priests did.
Off their own bat, the Church leaders made sex dirty - a necessary evil, (excellent depiction of this in Leon Uris's 'Trinity') while their priests ran rampant among those under their influence - and were ignored, and even on some occasions, assisted.
There is a nice summing up of the hypocrisy in a detective series I was watching last night.
The main character, Father Brown, objecting to the treatment of fallen women by the nuns, says to the Mother Superior:
"But our Saviour was conceived out of wedlock"
"Yes", came the reply, "but the Good Lord sent down Joseph to make an honest woman of her".
It still raises a smile
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 05:13 AM

Was this Chesterton's Father Brown, Jim??
Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 06:38 AM

"Was this Chesterton's Father Brown, Jim??"
It's a currently running series based on the Chesterton stories - too long since I read them to remember which were his and which are new.
This, From Helen Brennan's article in 'History Ireland'
This process of selection was paralleled in the attempted creation of a new milieu for dance. Ceilis were held in local halls and schools separate from the locations traditionally favoured by the people – the house, barn or cross-roads. The more formal dances organised by the Gaelic League found favour with the Catholic clergy who had long fulminated against the country house dances. In 1925 the Catholic bishops attacked the evils of late-night dancing and gave their seal of approval to the Gaelic League dances: 'They may not be the fashion in London or Paris. They should be the fashion in Ireland'. They observed that 'Irish dances do not make degenerates'. The combined opposition of church and state to informal dances which were outside their control led to the passing of the 1935 Public Dance Hall Act which confined the holding of dances to places licensed for such a purpose and which imposed a government tax on the admission price. According to Junior Crehan, a noted fiddle player and folklorist from Mullagh, County Clare:
"They believed that there was immoral conduct carried out at the country houses and that there was no sanitary arrangements, that was their excuse. You had to pay three pence tax to the shilling going into the hall which meant money to the government. They didn't care if you made your water down the chimney as long as they collected the money."

I was present when Junior made his remark at a talk he gave during the Willie Clancy Summer School in the early 80s
He was one of the most devout Catholics we ever met, yet he deliberately directed his remark to a row of priests and nuns from the local convent who were sitting directly in front of us.
A ripple of discomfort ran down the whole line of them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 08:50 AM

Joe, one of the great Irish writers is John B Keane, his observations of the Catholic church are extremely insightful and often very funny. Try The Bodhran Makers and the Letters of a Matchmaker I am sure you will enjoy his astute observations


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 09:10 AM

It's interest to note that one of Ireland's great classics - 'The Tailor and Ansty' - a must for anybody interested in Irish rural life, humour and vernacular speech), remained on "The Index" - the Church's list of banned books, for many decades (it may well still be on it)
The elderly heroin, Ansty, had a habit of referring to her husband as "my stal (stallion)" - that level of conjugal enjoyment didn't go down too well with them upstairs.
Wonder what they'd have made of Tom Jones or Moll Flanders!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM

Jim
in the old days to get a book on the index didn't someone have to read it, it was a dirty job but someone had to do it. I wonder if they ever got a second opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 08:51 PM

Let me bring up that term "anachronism" again. The year is 2017, and we are well into the 21st Century.
The last Index of Forbidden Books was published by the Catholic Church in 1948, and the Index was abolished altogether in 1966.
Jim refers at length to a document on dancing written by an Irish archbishop in 1925, and I haven't been able to understand the relevance of that document.
I appreciate the book recommendations for their historical interest, but not for their current relevance. The Tailor and Ansty (1942) was banned by the Irish Censorship of Publications Board, but not by the Catholic Church. I'm sure the works of John B. Keane are interesting, so thanks to Raggytash for recommending The Bodhran Makers (1986) and Letters of a Matchmaker (1975).
But as an American, I see these publications as 40 to 90 years old, and I can't see how anyone can use them as basis for a condemnation of the current situation of the Catholic Church. Maybe long grudges is what Ireland is all about, though. I had a run-in with a Cork-born priest in the 1980s, and then didn't see him for 25 years. He became pastor of my parish in 2005, and proceeded to make me miserable until he finally went back to Cork last year. He'll be back for the next month, so I plan to steer clear of the bastard.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 03:39 AM

"and I haven't been able to understand the relevance of that document."
That document expressed perfectly what was happening to the music in Ireland - it wasn't the opinion of a few old many, it articulated the attitude of the church and their desire to control Irish culture
Whenever the subject is discussed here in relation to what happened to the tradition, that is the one that is cited - Helen Brennan (a leading research figure in Irish dance, and Fintan Vallely both refer to it in their writings.
What happened to the music back then is very much a part of these discussions.
The music all but died then - it didn't die a natural death but was deliberately killed off and replaced by something else (controllable)
A similar thing happened in Scotland when the Church took against the tradition - there they drove the songs underground and ended up with a magnificent reprtoire of bawdy and erotic pieces.
Similarly in Wales, where the tradition was replaced by the outpourings from The Chapel
In your own country, go read the writings of White, Courlander and Lomax on how the preachers preached constantly about 'The Devil's Music'
All this is about control - mind and body.
I grew up surrounded by strong Catholic influences, but it wasn't until I started working in Ireland that I realised how deep these influences went in peoples lives literally, from before birth to after death
All forms of contraception were forbidden and women were encouraged to reproduce - no matter their financial or physical circumstances - having no children was, at best, a subject for sympathy, and at worst, a stigma.
The influences of baptism, church attendance, religious pressure at school, marriage.... what you could eat (especially on Friday)... are too well to re-open here, but a number of things were a total revelation to me.
I was introduced to 'Churching' by the 'Travellers' the idea that to give birth made a woman 'unclean', so much so that she was forbidden to prepare food in the home until, after a set period, she was 'Churched' (cleansed) by the priest by undergoing a set ritual
The saddest, and to me, the cruelest, were 'The Killeens'
Children who died after childbirth, before they could be blessed by the priest, were prohibited burial in consecrated ground and were consigned to the 'Killeens', often outside the local graveyard, but sometimes in a handy field set aside for the purpose.      
There are several in this area within a half hour's drive of our home
This is a description of 'The Angel's Plot in Glasnevin
"This Old Plot is the resting place for over fifty thousand infants who were buried there up to the 1970's. Glasnevin is one of the few Cemeteries that allowed stillborn babies to be buried in concentrated ground. In early times stillborn babies were not allowed in blessed ground, as they were unbaptised. Many babies were buried in the ditches and hedges on the outside of other cemeteries around the country. Often parents buried their babies themselves between dusk and dawn in fear of being caught and yet wanting their baby to buried in Holy Ground."
Cruel or what?
I sincerely believe that the Clerical abuses were a product of this desire to control
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 09:02 AM

Joe, old they may be but the humour is still there, please try one. I am sure you will not be disappointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

Old humor is delicious, Raggytash. Jim's old anger is poison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 12:39 PM

"Jim's old anger is poison."
Thanks for that Joe - very impressive fro someone who refuses to take responsibility for the church he defends
I have no hate, neither did my father, who was a victim of your church's fundamental excesses
I have an interest in understanding of what happened and why it did, not in brushing it under the carpet where it might be forgotten
Do you honestly believe what I have described is acceptable ot do you think I am making it all up?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 12:42 PM

I suppose it would be poisones hatred to point out that today's papers carry the results of a survey that it has been found that on third of adults in Ireland use the "withdrawal method" of contraception to avoid unwanted pregnancy
A fine legacy, for the 21st century, don't yuo think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM

Jim, take a look at your 1925 statement on dancing. Look at the signatures on the document:
  • Patrick O'Donnell, Archbishop of Armagh, Chairman.
  • Robert Browne, Bishop of Cloyne
  • Thomas O'Doherty, Bishop of Galway
    6th October, 1925.

Now, tell me the nationality of all those who signed. Irish, right?

I don't defend my church, Jim. It is what it is. When it does wrong, I fight the wrong. You, on the other hand, live in Ireland and you defend Ireland to the hilt. And you are a prime practitioner of a primary fault of the Irish - transference of blame. In Ireland, "The Church" is not some external authority. It is Irish, through and through. All the bishops, all the priests, are sons of Irish mothers and have Irish sisters and brothers. Yes, Irish Catholicism has been and in many ways still is a very sick form of Catholicism - but it is Irish, through and through.

If you claim to love Ireland, then you also ought to share the blame for the sickness of the Irish Catholic Church.

And yes, the Irish exported their sick brand of Catholicism all over the world. Look at the lists of names of priests who were sex offenders. Many of them were Irish - all over the world. Wherever you go in the English-speaking world, the Catholic church is far more Irish, than it is Catholic.

The entire nation of Ireland needs to take responsibility for its Irish Catholic Church. It was and still is very much a tool of the sicknesses of Irish culture - and also of many of the good aspects of Irish culture. I got my Catholic faith from my Irish grandmother, who was a good, loving, joyful woman - and I'm proud of that.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 02:02 PM

As for birth control, I'd recommend pills as a temporary measure, and then a vasectomy. The "withdrawal method" is messy and a bit weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 03:22 PM

"Now, tell me the nationality of all those who signed. Irish, right?"
Please don't reduce this to nationalities Joe - Ireland is a Catholic country - these things happened by edict of the Catholic church
The people of Ireland are not to blame for this any more than the English people are to blame for the crimes committed by their government or their establishment
That is an appalling cop-out
The church were experts in mind control - you are blaming those subjected to that process
I remind you of the South American rape of a child who was then refused a life saving abortion by the church - Irish Catholicism ?
Or the Pope who turned his back on the Italian Jews being shipped off to Auschwitz
Or the Churchmen who conspired in the murder of Archbishop Romero - or those who gave their support to Pinochet, or the Catholic Doctors in Italy who are refusing to carry out legal pregnancy terminations on needy women......
The present Pope has refused to bring about conclusion for the victims of clerical rape by releasing locked-away information that would help do so - I don't think we have an Irish Pope yet - do we?
That is truely saddening - Evil Irish Catholicism - it has the ring of desperation about it.
Incidentally - one of those "Irish" bishops was actually British - do you include British Catholicism in your blame
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 03:27 PM

Clerical abuse has been found to have taken place inthese places
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Dominican Republic
India
Ireland
Norway
Poland
United States
Ireland is fourth in the league table of legal actions - top of the list is The United States
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: mg
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 10:16 PM

mexico
argentina
philippines
francd
guam
italy
haiti
keep going

if you just mean catholics,lots more i am sure.

orthodox jews have a lot of trouble.

read abuse tracker every day if you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 03:28 AM

Joe has overstepped the mark as far as I am concerned
He played the classic defence card of all rapists and those who would defend than and blamed the victims "The Irish people"
The last high ranking figure to have been accused of multible sex assaults was the Pope's adivisor, Australian George Pell, which brings thes crimes right to the door of The Vatican - as if the covering up of the crimes of others wasn't enough
Accusing those of us who find the church's involvement in these crimes of "poisonous hatred' and blaming a nation of generally tolerant, welcoming and friendly people for allowing them to happen is really not acceptable
These are crimes committed from within an organisation that has placed itself far beyond the reach of ordinary worshippers and believers - one of the most powerful organisations on this planet
Not acceptable Joe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

Hi, Jim -
Yeah, I suspected one of those anti-dance bishops was English. But that opposition to dancing not the kind of thing you'd see from Catholic bishops in most places. One certainly wouldn't see it in Italy, or Spain, or Portugal, or the Slavic nations.
Now, if you look at the list of nations where sex abuse of children by Catholic priests occurred, I think you'll find that a good number of the priests accused of these crimes, were born in Ireland. That is most assuredly the case in the United States.
I live in a U.S. diocese that has very few American-born priests. After the Irish priests stopped coming here in the 1970s, they recruited priests from third-world countries. My ex-wife's cousin wanted to become a priest, and his pastor said, "You leave that to the Irish." So the cousin went to Wisconsin and became a priest in the Salvatorian order. I got divorced and got an annulment in 1992, and I retired the first time when my government job was privatized in 1996, when I was 48 years old. I applied to become a priest, already having completed 8 years of seminary. The Irish vocations director showed no interest in me, and I went in another direction and fell in love again. But I could have become a priest by the age of 52, and I could have given them many years of service. But I think the Irish Mafia preferred to get third world priests who would be easier to control.

The Irish Mafia or FBI (Foreign-Born Irish) priests had control of many dioceses in the United States until just recently, and they made sure that priests of other nationalities stayed in the minority. Same with police departments in many U.S. cities - they were under Irish control. And the Catholic Church in Australia and parts of Canada is similarly under strong Irish influence.

I had a friend here in California, an Irish-born priest named Tony Gurnell. His father was a Huguenot Protestant from France who emigrated to Ireland and made his living making stained glass windows. Fr. Tony said that Catholic seminaries in Ireland were heavily influenced by the heresy of Jansensenism, a theological movement from France that emphasized original sin, human depravity, the necessity of divine grace, and predestination. That's why, Tony said, that so many Irish-born priests seemed to emphasize the "dark side" of life. I believed all that, but then Tony told me that this happened because the British saw they couldn't defeat the Catholic Church in Ireland. So, they built the world's biggest Catholic seminary, and staffed it with priests from the area of France that had been most heavily influenced by Jansenism. I wasn't able to verify that, so I dunno. But that was one Irish priest's theory, and he agreed with my contention that Irish priests were unusually influenced by a negative view of humankind.

But there's no doubt in my mind that the Irish Catholic Church is thoroughly Irish. It is an integral part of the Irish people and culture, and the Irish people and culture are an integral part of it - unlike the Catholic Church in every other part of the world.

If you blame the sexual abuse of Irish children by priests on me, then you certainly have to shoulder part of the blame yourself. And you are just as much to blame as the Catholic guy who lives next door to you. All of Ireland shares the blame, because they did not put a stop to what these Irish Men of the Church were doing. The only ones who had the power to put a stop to all of this, were the Irish people. Jim, I think it's pretty lame of you to try to put the blame for an Irish problem on me, an American. Honey, we've got troubles of our own.

But all of this is because we're talking on your terms, Jim - and I concede that your perspective has an element of validity. The trouble is, you tend to see only one side of a coin. You see some things as good, and some things as bad. You see the Irish people and atheists as good, and the Catholic Church and religious people as bad.

I tend to see things both ways. It makes me wishy-washy, but I think it's a more honest approach. I see good and bad aspects of the Catholic Church and religion, of atheism, and of Ireland.

But to change the subject, let's talk about the United States. I love my country, but I hate my President. Last year at this time, I loved both my country and my President, and my life was much less conflicted. But since my country has a hateful President now, many people in other nations now think that the U.S. is a hateful country.

And the same goes for my Catholic Church. I hate the sex scandal my church went through and the terrible things that priests and bishops did, and I sure as heck hope that the measures put in place will prevent such a horrible thing from happening again. But I'm living in a racist, anti-immigrant country; and I am very proud that my Catholic Church is one of the strongest forces opposing racism and hatred in the U.S.

It's not black-and-white, Jim. The world is far more complex than that. And your sweeping condemnations just don't make sense.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 04:50 AM

Oy, it is to laugh.

Jim sez: Joe has overstepped the mark as far as I am concerned
He played the classic defence card of all rapists and those who would defend than and blamed the victims "The Irish people"


The victims, Jim, were children. Irish children.

The criminals, Jim, were priests and bishops. Irish priests and bishops, not Italian or American or Jewish or Arab or anything other than Irish.

And only the Irish people had the power to stop them, and they didn't.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 05:39 AM

The Italian people stood up to their Church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 05:43 AM

"And only the Irish people had the power to stop them, and they didn't."
You are now adopting the ploy used by every rape defence council in history - "The victim could have said no"
Beneath contempt
You have now made this a racist attack on the Irish
Also beneath contempt
This is an international affair - the Irish have brought it into the open and since they have, the international nature of these crimes have gradually
now emerged
The people of Boston could have stopped it
You ignore the power exercised by the church - from birth, a power they are fighting to retain
The Jesuits boasted about that power "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"
You ignore the fact that that power made them virtually invulnerable, especially in their alliance with the State
It has taken revelations of the widespread and long term abuse of children under the influence of the church to weaken that power and finally break that grip - hopefully, once and for all
Now we see the various factions taking up their positions - you have obviously decided which side you are on
You have decided on a racist stance
You have a list of the countries involved so far - you continue to make this an anti-Irish attack
Shame on you Joe, deep shame on you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 05:48 AM

"The Italian people stood up to their Church."
There - you have the support of the inventor of the "Irish children brainwashed to hate Britain" claim
I'm sure Tr=eribus will be along to join you shortly with his stupid Irish who didn't really want independence but were stupid enough to be tricked into demanding it by foreigners
You're assembling quite a team
Long spoons required for this feast
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 05:50 AM

ITALY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:05 AM

Jim, don't give me that. I've just finished 12 years of being the main target of the rage of an alcoholic Irish priest. He's been home in Cork for a year, but he's coming back Sunday and staying for a month. I put up with that bastard for 12 years, determined that I was never going to let him force me to kiss his ass and that I was not going to let him push me out of MY parish. One of the first things the guy did when he came to town, was to push me out of my job in the parish. He kept trying to push me out of various volunteer positions, but I held firm. He once referred to a class I taught as "Joe's fucking Bible study." He suspected me of stealing. I once yelled across the empty church to tell him how fucked up he was.
The Catholic Church is fucked up in many ways, but the Irish Catholic Church is particularly fucked up - and it's Irish people who are to blame, not Americans. And the Irish exported their fucked-up priests all over the world.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:06 AM

Thanks Jim.
Your link shows how the Italians are standing up to the Church on child abuse as they already have on divorce, contraception and abortion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:09 AM

Yep. The Italians took the child abuser priests to court and convicted them of their crimes. How many convictions did they get in Ireland, Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:12 AM

" but the Irish Catholic Church is particularly fucked up"
No more than anywhere else where it has held supreme power
What has happened is that the Irish church have been found out, which has led to new revelations elsewhere
The Irish people were the victims - not the perpetrators
They were victims of the supernatural blackmail that the church has always gone in for - "go with us us go to Hell"
Blaming them is tantamount to blaming the victims of Stalin's purges - for the show trials.
You continue to ignore the facts of what is happening - as I said, you have chosen to blame that rapists for allowing themselves to be raped
Shame on you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:23 AM

The rapists were Irish, Jim. Irish police should have arrested them, and Irish courts should have convicted them of their crimes.

Italians and Americans and Englanders didn't victimize those Irish children. It was Irish priests, and the Irish parents and police and government did nothing.

There is no national church in the world that holds more power than the Irish Catholic Church - and they exported their power all over the world. Get that straight, Jim.

I've suffered under Irish priests. I know. I lost my job, my good name was slandered far and wide, and my application for priesthood was rejected. And the priests who did that to me were born, raised, and educated in Ireland.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 07:59 AM

An interesting take on the church by the irish times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-catholic-church-trying-to-dump-sex-abuse-priests-on-st


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