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BS: Clerical Abuse of Children
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 20 Sep 17 - 11:57 AM Can anyone on this forum interested in this topic, apart from Jom, tell me what they think a "secret burial" would entail. Can anyone on this forum interested in this topic, apart from Jom, tell me what they think "without public knowledge" means. Can anyone on this forum interested in this topic, apart from Jom, tell me what "without identifying them means Now as far as those buried in the mass grave at Smyllum Park Orphanage go: 1: There was nothing secret about the burials. The grave was Known to have existed - so no secret burial involved. 2: The cause of death of each child was known, registered, recorded - so much for lack of public knowledge 3: The name of each child was known, registered and recorded - so much for them being unidentified We are talking here about an institution that operated from 1864 until it closed 1981. In this time over 11,000 children lived there. Within that number over the course of those 117 years 402 children died and there are death certificates for every single one of them. In each case the cause of death was known and registered. They were buried in an unmarked pauper's grave - Just to get things into perspective - In the 21st Century, approximately 2,500 Scots per year are buried at Council expense in similar unmarked pauper's graves. In the case of the childrens remains found in Tuam in the West of Ireland, they were not buried in what was known to be a mass pauper's grave, they were buried in what was commonly thought to be an old cesspit, there were no records detailing who was buried there, there were no causes of death officially recorded. The two cases are so far apart in every single detail that were it a distance it would be measured in "light years". Yet we have Jom yelling for exhumations and investigations - in the case of the Smyllum Park Orphanage - WHAT FOR?? Of course it could be the Jom "pay-back" thing and he is looking for the Catholic Church to pay for separate funerals and headstones. But in Jom's mathematics there is always only one-side to any equation. It would only be fair wouldn't it, that if the Catholic Church has to pay-out for separate funerals and headstones for 402 children then the people of Scotland would in turn have to recompense the Catholic Church for the costs of staff and resources related to the care, supervision, housing and food for all 11,000 orphans from 1864 until 1981. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:56 AM Jim, the only allegation is that they were buried in an unmarked communal grave. There is no suggestion of unregistered deaths. No exhumations are required. Your claims were baseless. Here is the story again. Read it this time! https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/10/smyllum-park-lanark-orphanage-catholic-nuns-children-mass-grave-allegedly "An inquiry by BBC Radio 4's File on 4 and the Sunday Post newspaper examined death certificates in archives and found 402 children from Smyllum Park." "Records reveal that most of the deaths were due to natural causes, mainly from diseases such as TB, pneumonia and pleurisy. About a third of the victims were under the age of five, and the majority of the deaths occurred between 1870 and 1930." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM You have already had my response to this The investigations into the Lanarkshire site is yet in its infancy and as there have been no exhumations carried out to date, there cannot possibly be a statement to say that all deaths were registered The fact that the vast majority of cases have shown that unregistered deaths were common practice, there is no reason to believe that this will be any different You really are going to have to do better than this pathetic claim of "lying" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:49 AM I refer you to my previous post: Teribus - 20 Sep 17 - 07:27 AM And to YOUR post: Jim Carroll - 13 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM "I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse," - [Joe Offer} "I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be." In the case of the Smyllum Park Orphanage: - There was nothing secret about the burials. - The cause of death of each child was known, registered, recorded. - The name of each child was known, registered and recorded. Jim Carroll the purveyor of misinformation, misrepresentation and lies. As far as the Smyllum Park Orphanage in Lanarkshire is concerned you lied, misinformed and misrepresented what had been discovered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:32 AM "Jim Carroll the purveyor of misinformation, misrepresentation and lies." I do not tell lies – I have never told lies on this forum and you have never produced one single lie you have accused me of In making this accusation you are obviously trying to wreck another thread in order to save face, as you have now done on several occasions Please produce one singe lie have old on 5this subject – now will be a convenient time for you to do so Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 20 Sep 17 - 07:27 AM This thread fell silent in August the last post being from Joe Offer on 21 Aug 17 - 12:59 PM. By that stage all chat about "Irish Catholic abuse of children" had been done to death. The thread was reactivated in September the first post being from Jack Campin on 10 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM, where he was specifically address the reports about a mass grave being found containing the bodies of hundreds of children from the Smyllum Park Catholic Orphanage in Lanarkshire, Scotland. With regard to and in relation to this discovery and Jack Campin's posted link we got this in response to a post from Joe Offer on the subject: Jim Carroll - 13 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM "I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse," - [Joe Offer} "I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be." In the case of the Smyllum Park Orphanage: - There was nothing secret about the burials. - The cause of death of each child was known, registered, recorded. - The name of each child was known, registered and recorded. Jim Carroll the purveyor of misinformation, misrepresentation and lies. When called to account over these falsehoods he reverts to instances previously covered in the thread and attempts to say that that is what he was referring to in the post given above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:58 AM "Anything to say about the Lanarkshire burials?" You have already been given masses on the Lanarkshire burials which you choose to ignore Anything to say on what has already been said? The subject of this thread is " Catholic Abuse of Children" - not just Lanarkshire burials Tha fact o unmarked graves and unresgistered deaths is a long standing and fully accepted fact, particularly in Ireland, where so many of them took place Anything to say on them? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:53 AM "It must be true because these high-ups said it." I would never say that. I did not need to hunt around for quotes. They were widely reported and no-one was contradicting them. Read what was said at the time. . The vast, vast majority of Pakistani men are decent, hard-working, law-abiding individuals I know, and have always said so. A very tiny minority engaged in despicable criminal activity in the Rochdale area, I agree, and that applies to all those other towns and cities where this has been an issue. But enough about me and enough about grooming gangs. What about the subject of this thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:43 AM Yes Keith, and you quoted them ad nauseam in your appeal to authority. "It must be true because these high-ups said it." What you always do, Keith. The vast, vast majority of Pakistani men are decent, hard-working, law-abiding individuals. A very tiny minority engaged in despicable criminal activity in the Rochdale area, just as tiny minorities of all sorts of people indulge in despicable criminal activities all over the place. But that wasn't good enough for you. You hunted around for quotes to perpetuate the smear. You pretend it isn't you, shrugging your shoulders saying, well you don't have to listen to me, listen to the big-knobs - they must be right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:16 AM Steve, It's a pity you didn't also say that it was nothing to do with Pakistani culture too, Keith. I did not say that it was. I did say that I knew nothing about the culture, and the suggestion that culture was to blame came not from me but from numerous well informed people who were all British Pakistanis or Left Wing politicians or both. Now, enough about me. Anything to say about the Lanarkshire burials? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:07 AM "An ode for Jimmie, as we have a vaguely religious theme:" Still resorting to vacuous copycat bullying Iains Does the trail of closed threads tell you nothing about your childish behaviour? "Example of Carroll doing precisely the above on this thread:" "Classic deflection on Carroll's part," You are now a team of kamikaze trolls hell bent on destroying this forum Hopefully you will be regarded as such by other members You're not even good at this - I'd stick to your rural idylls of an England of white-cland vigins dancing around Maypoles Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:51 AM It's a pity you didn't also say that it was nothing to do with Pakistani culture too, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:54 AM An ode for Jimmie, as we have a vaguely religious theme: Matthew 7:3-5 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:23 AM "You make idiotic and patently untrue statements that do not stand up to the most cursory examination when challenged. You then resort to insults and deflection to cover your tracks as you retreat" Example of Carroll doing precisely the above on this thread: Jim Carroll - 19 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM "implanted Muslims, Slaver travellers, brainwashed Irish children don't count as communities, races or religions then To which Keith A replied: Keith A of Hertford - 19 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM Re grooming gangs, if you look at that 6 year old thread you will see that I was at pains to stress repeatedly that religion played no part and that although one demographic was over-represented, only a "tiny minority" were involved. Likewise the slavery issue. Can I suggest you restrict your posts to the current issue and not try to make it about me or long forgotten threads. Classic deflection on Carroll's part, with the added bonus that most of the threads he harks back to were closed, so his massive "Cut'n'Paste" inserts guarantee closure of the new thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM Doesn't matter Keiuth - it was Muslims that you targeted which refers to a religion That is a lie Jim. Count how many times that I stated that it was nothing to do with Islam. On slavery we looked at every reported case since the current laws were enacted. There was a clear over-representation which has since become even more pronounced. Again Jim, please stop trying to make this about me, and stop dredging up years old debates that have no relevance to this issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: ollaimh Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:53 AM joe had the same rationalizations for former ss officers. they were 26 year old young men who made a few mistakes. must be forgiven. forgive rape and murder, well ask those raped and murdered(or their families) first. these are sex criminals, and even in the united states sex tort committers. its' unforgivable and those who defend them are unforgivable. this is evil folks. the gnostic dualists were right. main stream christians have been fooled into wordhipping an ashura(a kind of devil) and calling it god(loterally or figuratively the effect is the same). that's why they do so much evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:23 AM "Re grooming gangs, if you look at that 6 year old thread you will see that I was at pains to stress repeatedly that religion played no part " Doesn't matter Keiuth - it was Muslims that you targeted which refers to a religion You weven dredged a centuries old myth regarding Mohammed having a child bride to underline your claim that Muslims were inclind to Paedophelia "Likewise the slavery issue. "You selected the behaviour of 8 criminals to claim Travellers were "over-represented" That is using criminality to target an entire ethnic community. "Can I suggest you restrict your posts to the current issue and not try to make it about me or long forgotten threads." You mean "can you move away from the embarrassing bits and allow you to defend the actions of the Christian church?" 'Fraid not Keith Raggy just said it all for me Jim Carroll You have persisted in defending these crimes - you desist from doing so (or prove that unregistered births were not common) and all this will go away - until it is needed next time What have you been told about trying to manipulate treads when they become uncomfortable "When will they ever learn" as Pete Segger used to sing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Raggytash Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:11 AM Abuse of children by representatives of christian religions, in particular, is reported on a sickeningly regular basis. It is high time that the powers that pertain in these organisations not only recognised just how prevalent it is, but acted to ensure it does not and cannot occur in future. Until such time as that happens I believe it is imperitive that it is discussed openly and widely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM Re grooming gangs, if you look at that 6 year old thread you will see that I was at pains to stress repeatedly that religion played no part and that although one demographic was over-represented, only a "tiny minority" were involved. Likewise the slavery issue. Can I suggest you restrict your posts to the current issue and not try to make it about me or long forgotten threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM "implanted Muslims, Slaver travellers, brainwashed Irish children don't count as communities, races or religions then You and your mates have persistently denigrated them all - and have been given examples of hour having done so, so please don't ask again Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:24 AM Yu are quick enough to condemn entire communities, religions and religions on the actions of a few criminals I never have nor would. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:23 AM Jack started it here, and you immediately joined in having already raised the same issue on another thread. There is no evidence or even any suggestion that anything untoward happened in Scotland. We all know that lots of wicked and mad things like Tuam and Magdalene laundries happen in Ireland under Irish Catholicism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:11 AM By the way "Latest horror story, this time from Scotland:" was Jack Campin's not mine Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:30 AM "Despite your attempts to construe this as "another horror story" This was only reported recently - your linked article referred to "allegedly 400 corpses" Until those corpses are exhumed, we have no idea how many there actually are and how they died - how an earth can we have such information is such a short time? The majority of previous cases have shown that not registering deaths in these institutions took place but the practice was commonplace In the case of Tuam, new collections of bodies were being found a year after the initial discovery Because these occurrences constitute Christian atrocities, you rush to minimise them - as usual Yu are quick enough to condemn entire communities, religions and religions on the actions of a few criminals - here you bend over backwards to defend Christian crimes that are beyond question and whose revelations ar bringing the church tumbling down around the ears of the believers and the criminal clergy alike One of the greatest contributors to the present crisis in the Church today is the denial and evasion such as yours There is no reason to believe that this latest discovery is different from any others - none whatever, yet yoiu will continue your denials like a rat with a rag Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 17 - 03:58 AM When this thread was reawakened as "another horror story" Joe said, "I didn't see enough information in the Lanarkshire article to know if it was indeed another "horror story." It was not. Jim, you replied, "I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be." There was full public acknowledgement of the deaths, identities and causes of deaths, and and no secrets. Despite your attempts to construe this as "another horror story" both here and on the Mogg thread it was no such thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM There is no "unregistered deaths report" on this Scottish case. There is no suggestion of any unregistered deaths there. This is just another spurious attack on Catholicism. Why on earth do you defend these obscene atrocities - even after the Church has already admitted them I have not and do not defend any atrocity. If I have, quote me doing it. What kind of 'Christian' are you Not a Catholic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:47 PM You have been linked to the "unregistered deaths" report Your technique is usually to refuse to respond to those reports and just repeat the same thing over and over again Unless you have evidence that that report was false, please don't bother to deny it Life really is too short to spend time responding to such idiocy Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:42 PM Keith My point was a general one - there are now reports of hundreds of children in care without having been discovered This from the link you have been given More than 7,000 babies and children died in Ireland's mother and baby homes during the last century, new documents reveal. But the real figure is likely to be much higher "There were also at least 77 confirmed Stillbirths in Castlepollard above and beyond the 200 registered deaths. There will be hundreds of unregistered Stillbirths discovered in Tuam too above and beyond the 800 registered deaths. This from an organisation researching the deaths "Irregular burials and unmarked graves We have consistently maintained that irregular, unregistered and unmarked burials were a hallmark of the institutional care system in 20th century Ireland, and we stress that Tuam is not an isolated case. Thus far we are aware that there may be similar unmarked graves at the sites of institutions run by the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary at Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey and Castlepollard. Indeed, we are aware of over 180 institutions, agencies and individuals who were involved with Ireland's unmarried mothers and their children. Little is known of the conditions and practices – including burial practices and grave locations – of these institutions, most of which are not on the Commission's Terms of Reference. In addition, Conall O'Fatharta of the Irish Examiner has reported that 353 infants died at the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home between 1938 and 1944, and that the official death registrations and nuns' own records of deaths do not tally (with 80 fewer deaths recorded on the institution's books). A report supplied by the HSE to the McAleese Committee in 2012 (originally published by Conall O'Fatharta) expressed concerns that death records may have been falsified at Bessborough in order to facilitate 'clandestine adoption arrangements'." THat from March, this year It has already been established that bodies found aaaat Tuam were unregistered - The Irish Minister for children has stated publicly that many of these deaths were not registerd Why on earth do you defend these obscene atrocities - even after the Church has already admitted them What kind of 'Christian' are you - what kind of 'human being' does that? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM Jim, That is the pint of the scandal - nobody knows who they were and why they died Then there is no scandal Jim, because the deaths are all registered. Guardian, "The institution, which looked after children from broken homes, opened in 1864 and closed in 1981. More than 11,000 children stayed at the orphanage over that period. Records reveal that most of the deaths were due to natural causes, mainly from diseases such as TB, pneumonia and pleurisy. About a third of the victims were under the age of five, and the majority of the deaths occurred between 1870 and 1930. Former residents of the orphanage uncovered a burial plot containing the remains of a number of children at nearby St Mary's cemetery in 2003." "An inquiry by BBC Radio 4's File on 4 and the Sunday Post newspaper examined death certificates in archives and found 402 children from Smyllum Park. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/10/smyllum-park-lanark-orphanage-catholic-nuns-children-mass-grave-allegedly BBC, "The death records indicate that most of the children died of natural causes, from diseases common at the time such as TB, pneumonia and pleurisy. Analysis of the records show that a third of those who died were aged five or under. Very few of those who died, 24 in total, were aged over 15, and most of the deaths occurred between 1870 and 1930. One of those believed to be buried there is Francis McColl. He died in 1961, aged 13; his death certificate indicates he died from a brain haemorrhage. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41200949 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 17 - 11:09 AM "These were not "secret burials." All the deaths were registered in the normal way." Yes they were and no they were not - in that order Keith That is the pint of the scandal - nobody knows who they were and why they died - more and more of these burial places are being discovered every day "Last Easter, I asked the nuns at High Park to explain all of this. They chose not to respond to any of the 19 detailed questions I put to them. Instead, earlier this week, they issued a statement claiming that the exhumation was carried out in order to provide the women with a permanent resting place. Their concern to respect the dead Magdalene women is no doubt touching. But might perhaps the Minister for Justice be concerned enough to investigate so many unexplained and unregistered deaths? And who will care enough to restore to these women the dignity of their real names – something the nuns stripped ruthlessly from them in life?" DO THEY THINK WE'RE EEJITS? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jack Campin Date: 17 Sep 17 - 10:43 AM They DID spend money on memorials - when the memorials were for the nuns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM These were not "secret burials." All the deaths were registered in the normal way. The children's home would have had a limited budget and it was probably considered preferable to spend it on the living than on memorials for the dead. No doubt they were buried with respect and tears in that communal grave. Is there any evidence of malpractice here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM From Jack's Post "But instead he was withdrawn from the US and the Pope's investigators have now launched their own probe, seeking evidence from the US." This reads suspiciously like exactly what happened to so many abusive priests when their behaviour became too obvious to ignore - it is the direct collusion of the hierarchy of the church in sexuual abuse As far as I am concerned, it shows clearly that, far from acknowledging its sings and atoning for them the church continues to cover up and protect abuse by the clergy How far does the church have to self-destruct before this insanity stops? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jack Campin Date: 16 Sep 17 - 12:03 PM And another "Beam me up, Scotty" from a pervert in trouble with the law: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/vatican-recall-priest-child-sexual-abuse-images-us-state-department-a7949871.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Sep 17 - 05:13 AM "The settlements and judgments have not yet been paid completely," My point exactly Joe - the world's weathiesy church refuses to meet its comminttments Parished should never have been asked to donate - that's another way the hierarchy have dodged their resposibility You acknowledged this long ago when you talked about the Vatican having to sell its paintings - now it's parishes going bust Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 17 - 04:01 AM Not paid, Jim? The payments made by the Catholic Church have been in the hundreds of millions, bankrupting many dioceses. The settlements and judgments have not yet been paid completely, Jim; but the amount paid already is mind-boggling. And the two most recent popes, Francis and Benedict, have acknowledged and publicly apologized for this abuse over and over again. In the midst of your rhetoric, you lost track of the facts. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM These arguments are beginning to remind me of the old childrens' rhyme "Ladybird, Ladybird, fly away home Your house is on fire, your children are flown Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:28 AM "But it didn't happen everywhere" This seems a bit of a concession on your part Joe, for which I am grateful At one time it was "a few bad apples" It happened often enough to have brought the Church to its knees here - not from outside attacks but from believers walking away and leaving empty churches - in my parent's time that would have been an unbelievably concept for Holy Ireland - I can remember as a young teenager being taken to mass in an Irish church by relatives and having to stand in the rain as there was no room inside. No more THe church needs to stand up to the consequences of its guilt - not just the behaviour of abusive priests and nuns, but the collusion that took place. Some honest and humane Churchmen have - but those at the top of the tree have not And all the time new revelations such as Scotland keep popping up and will continue too do so Your friendly Irish priests can deny till they are blue in the face, but documentaries like Mea Maxima Culpa and the background of films like Philomena, Spotlight, Ballad of a Raggy Boy, The Magdalene Girls and many, many others tell a totally different story This abuse was common, it was widely known about and hidden, and is was international The real "rotten apples" in your church are the hierarch who continue to dismiss it and refuse to meet up to the consequences So far, the Irish taxpayer has footed the financial bill for this offence - the Church has yet to pay its agreed share One of the possible consequences of this is likely to be that those victims who decided to put all this behind them and not come forward will become tired of having their noses rubbed into what happened to them and demand reparation Your Church will then have to start holding jumble-sales to pay for its very existence You have never responded to this, but if this had happened in the, say, health service or the education system the entire structure of these organisations would have been tured on their heads to shake out the rats. Your Church still refuses to even acknowledge the responsibility of itss action (or inaction) Thast really doesn't auger well for the genuine Christians amongst you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:00 AM Steve Shaw says: It's about the Church hierarchy denying the issue then covering it up by quietly shifting miscreants around. It's about allowing the perpetuation of the wrongdoing by dint of that kind of behaviour, priests being quietly moved to another location where they could carry on with the abuse. Yes, those things happened, and they are truly reason for outrage. And since a bishop is the sole authority in a diocese, one corrupt bishop can destroy an entire diocese. But it didn't happen everywhere, not even close to everywhere. But the crimes were so scandalous that when they happened, it appeared that they were happening everywhere. And as I've said, people often get this impression of crime - that it is happening everywhere and constantly. -Joe- b |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:31 PM It isn't really scapegoating though, is it, Joe. I don't doubt for a second that plenty of priests and bishops of good intent were trying to address the problem of sexual abuse as and when it reared its head. But this is about something far deeper than those day-to-day vicissitudes. It's about widespread institutional cover-ups. It's about the Church hierarchy denying the issue then covering it up by quietly shifting miscreants around. It's about allowing the perpetuation of the wrongdoing by dint of that kind of behaviour, priests being quietly moved to another location where they could carry on with the abuse. All done in the cause of preventing embarrassment for the Church and with very little to do with helping the victims of the abuse. That is what jars in the eyes of outsiders who see an institution which is supposed to follow the teachings of Christ seemingly doing the precise opposite. I was a member of the Church for decades and many of my family still are, and I hate to see this institution utterly failing - as an institution. Dealing with the issue so ineptly and so lacking in courage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM Jim Carroll says: The church was aware this was going on and did nothing and in many cases actively covered it up so they are all "offenders" in this respect But that's not true, Jim. I know that from personal experience, and from discussions I've had with Irish-born priests and nuns. When I was in the seminary in Milwaukee in 1967-68, we were subjected to rigorous psychological testing, and 9 of my classmates were removed because they were thought to be a bad risk. So, back in 1967, my diocese recognized that sexual abuse was a problem in the Catholic clergy, and they took serious steps to combat the problem. In the 1970s, the U.S. bishops built state-of-the-art residential centers for treatment of priests who had problems with addictions and sexual misconduct. Neither of these responses completely solved the problem, but they were honest, rigorous responses. In the 1980s, I moved to the Sacramento diocese, at the time when that diocese was developing a system for responding to sexual abuse complaints that offered counseling and financial compensation with no questions asked, along with referral of offending priests to law enforcement for prosecution. Dioceses all over the world have been trying all sorts of approaches to the sexual abuse problem since at least the 1960s. Yes, there were far too many bishops who buried their heads in the sand and denied and covered up this scandal, but the wrongdoers were NOT in the majority. Trouble is, the good efforts of people rarely get good news coverage. So, yes, Jim, I think there needs to be a balanced, realistic, honest approach to this scandal that is targeted at the actual wrongdoers. I also think that positive efforts to prevent future abuse, are far more important than are efforts to recycle attacks on 50-yr-old crimes over and over again. The physical and sexual abuse of children is still a serious problem in churches and in most facets of our society. Scapegoating past misconduct in churches serves to ignore the current problem which is still widespread throughout society. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:15 PM "To scapegoat a few seems not enough to me" It would make more sense to differentiate between the offenders and offended in my opinion. To Punish the guilty and help the victims is a far more rational approach than hunting around for a bunch of scapegoats. After all what is a scapegoat? a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency. Why would you want to find scapegoats anyway? It would be a total waste of time, resources and money and achieve zilch, apart from perverting the course of justice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:39 PM "Agreed, but I think that only the offenders should be punished, and not the entire group" The church was aware this was going on and did nothing and in many cases actively covered it up so they are all "offenders" in this respect Smythe's Bishop actually humiliated the parents of his victims when tey raised the issue Two years ago, when an abusive high level clergyman gave a sermon and a victim raised his voice in protest at him being allowed to do so, he was physically thrown out of the building I won't repeat the story of the Nuns who described their victims as "the sweepings of the street" Some of your church have learned nothing, atoned for nothing, and refuse to acknowledge that their behaviour was evil To scapegoat a few seems not enough to me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:32 PM Raggytash says: "If their colleagues then indulge in such abuse they should face the full weight of their fellow clergy and the full face of the law." Agreed, but I think that only the offenders should be punished, and not the entire group. Crime tends to drive people to hysteria and bigotry. I continue to believe that most people, including most Catholics and most Catholic clergy, are pretty good folks and are not guilty of any criminal offense merely by their membership in a particular group. There is a very vocal group in my town that is outraged by crime that happens in the community. They seem to be convinced that most crime is committed by homeless people, and so the town must rid itself of all homeless people. I think it is important that we respond to crime in a very rational manner, being careful to stick the the facts. The original post by raggytash in this thread says, "The report I read on the BBC News suggested a figure of 49 members of the clergy." The actual report from the BBC (quoted in full above) says this:
The report accuses 49 members of the Catholic Church of carrying out the abuse between 1945 and the early 1990s. It seems probable to me that most of those "49 members of the Catholic Church" were NOT clergy. I really do think that precise information is necessary when we are passing judgment in such matters. We humans tend to react to crime in irrational ways, making it far worse than it actually is. Same with the "mass grave" issue. Early reports of the Tuam institution said that bodies of children were dumped into a refuse pit, but later reports showed that to be untrue. Residents of institutions are often buried without headstones when they die. There used to be a tuberculosis sanatorium next door to my home, and there's a graveyard there for patients who died. Most were buried in unmarked graves, usually identified only by a number. That's how they did it in those days. Some clergy commit crimes. Some Jews commit crimes, Some Muslims commit crimes. Some homeless people commit crimes. But not all of them, and no individuals should feel obligated to apologize for crimes committed by other members of their group. That's a troublesome trend that has arisen lately, people demanding that Muslims speak out against acts of terrorism committed by other Muslims. If I didn't commit the crime, I should not be expected to atone for it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Raggytash Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:46 AM I don't have any problem with the topic being widened to include abuse of any religious group. The "leaders" of such groups tell the rest of us that such abuse is sinful. If their colleagues then indulge in such abuse they should face the full weight of their fellow clergy and the full face of the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:41 AM It's a valid topic in its own right. We shouldn't feel we have to bring other religions into this particular thread unless we want to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Raggytash Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:08 AM The thread was so titled because of the opening post which referred to a specific example of catholic abuse. Sadly that one example is one of many for that particular religion. If you care to read other posts other religions are mentioned as the topic has broadened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM One more try "get a bloody grip, " BEING "BELTED IN CATHOLIC INSTITUTIONS https://www.irishtimes.com/news/brutality-and-dire-conditions-in-climate-of-fear-1.766959 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:36 PM Didn't work - try this Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:22 PM BELTS OVER THE EAR Jim Carroll |