BS: Clerical Abuse of Children

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 11:09 AM

"These were not "secret burials."
All the deaths were registered in the normal way."
Yes they were and no they were not - in that order Keith
That is the pint of the scandal - nobody knows who they were and why they died - more and more of these burial places are being discovered every day

"Last Easter, I asked the nuns at High Park to explain all of this. They chose not to respond to any of the 19 detailed questions I put to them.
Instead, earlier this week, they issued a statement claiming that the exhumation was carried out in order to provide the women with a permanent resting place. Their concern to respect the dead Magdalene women is no doubt touching. But might perhaps the Minister for Justice be concerned enough to investigate so many unexplained and unregistered deaths? And who will care enough to restore to these women the dignity of their real names – something the nuns stripped ruthlessly from them in life?"
DO THEY THINK WE'RE EEJITS?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

Jim,
That is the pint of the scandal - nobody knows who they were and why they died

Then there is no scandal Jim, because the deaths are all registered.

Guardian,
"The institution, which looked after children from broken homes, opened in 1864 and closed in 1981. More than 11,000 children stayed at the orphanage over that period.
Records reveal that most of the deaths were due to natural causes, mainly from diseases such as TB, pneumonia and pleurisy. About a third of the victims were under the age of five, and the majority of the deaths occurred between 1870 and 1930.
Former residents of the orphanage uncovered a burial plot containing the remains of a number of children at nearby St Mary's cemetery in 2003."
"An inquiry by BBC Radio 4's File on 4 and the Sunday Post newspaper examined death certificates in archives and found 402 children from Smyllum Park.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/10/smyllum-park-lanark-orphanage-catholic-nuns-children-mass-grave-allegedly

BBC,
"The death records indicate that most of the children died of natural causes, from diseases common at the time such as TB, pneumonia and pleurisy.
Analysis of the records show that a third of those who died were aged five or under. Very few of those who died, 24 in total, were aged over 15, and most of the deaths occurred between 1870 and 1930.
One of those believed to be buried there is Francis McColl. He died in 1961, aged 13; his death certificate indicates he died from a brain haemorrhage. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41200949

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:42 PM

Keith
My point was a general one - there are now reports of hundreds of children in care without having been discovered
This from the link you have been given
More than 7,000 babies and children died in Ireland's mother and baby homes during the last century, new documents reveal.
But the real figure is likely to be much higher In some cases, babies who survived only a few hours were wrongly registered as stillborns to avoid registering the birth and the death.
"There were also at least 77 confirmed Stillbirths in Castlepollard above and beyond the 200 registered deaths. There will be hundreds of unregistered Stillbirths discovered in Tuam too above and beyond the 800 registered deaths.
This from an organisation researching the deaths
"Irregular burials and unmarked graves
We have consistently maintained that irregular, unregistered and unmarked burials were a hallmark of the institutional care system in 20th century Ireland, and we stress that Tuam is not an isolated case. Thus far we are aware that there may be similar unmarked graves at the sites of institutions run by the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary at Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey and Castlepollard. Indeed, we are aware of over 180 institutions, agencies and individuals who were involved with Ireland's unmarried mothers and their children. Little is known of the conditions and practices – including burial practices and grave locations – of these institutions, most of which are not on the Commission's Terms of Reference. In addition, Conall O'Fatharta of the Irish Examiner has reported that 353 infants died at the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home between 1938 and 1944, and that the official death registrations and nuns' own records of deaths do not tally (with 80 fewer deaths recorded on the institution's books). A report supplied by the HSE to the McAleese Committee in 2012 (originally published by Conall O'Fatharta) expressed concerns that death records may have been falsified at Bessborough in order to facilitate 'clandestine adoption arrangements'."
THat from March, this year
It has already been established that bodies found aaaat Tuam were unregistered -
The Irish Minister for children has stated publicly that many of these deaths were not registerd
Why on earth do you defend these obscene atrocities - even after the Church has already admitted them
What kind of 'Christian' are you - what kind of 'human being' does that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:47 PM

You have been linked to the "unregistered deaths" report
Your technique is usually to refuse to respond to those reports and just repeat the same thing over and over again
Unless you have evidence that that report was false, please don't bother to deny it
Life really is too short to spend time responding to such idiocy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM

There is no "unregistered deaths report" on this Scottish case.
There is no suggestion of any unregistered deaths there.
This is just another spurious attack on Catholicism.

Why on earth do you defend these obscene atrocities - even after the Church has already admitted them
I have not and do not defend any atrocity.
If I have, quote me doing it.
What kind of 'Christian' are you
Not a Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 03:58 AM

When this thread was reawakened as "another horror story" Joe said, "I didn't see enough information in the Lanarkshire article to know if it was indeed another "horror story."

It was not.

Jim, you replied, "I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be."

There was full public acknowledgement of the deaths, identities and causes of deaths, and and no secrets.

Despite your attempts to construe this as "another horror story" both here and on the Mogg thread it was no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:30 AM

"Despite your attempts to construe this as "another horror story"
This was only reported recently - your linked article referred to "allegedly 400 corpses"
Until those corpses are exhumed, we have no idea how many there actually are and how they died - how an earth can we have such information is such a short time?
The majority of previous cases have shown that not registering deaths in these institutions took place but the practice was commonplace
In the case of Tuam, new collections of bodies were being found a year after the initial discovery
Because these occurrences constitute Christian atrocities, you rush to minimise them - as usual
Yu are quick enough to condemn entire communities, religions and religions on the actions of a few criminals - here you bend over backwards to defend Christian crimes that are beyond question and whose revelations ar bringing the church tumbling down around the ears of the believers and the criminal clergy alike
One of the greatest contributors to the present crisis in the Church today is the denial and evasion such as yours
There is no reason to believe that this latest discovery is different from any others - none whatever, yet yoiu will continue your denials like a rat with a rag
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:11 AM

By the way "Latest horror story, this time from Scotland:" was Jack Campin's not mine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:23 AM

Jack started it here, and you immediately joined in having already raised the same issue on another thread.

There is no evidence or even any suggestion that anything untoward happened in Scotland.
We all know that lots of wicked and mad things like Tuam and Magdalene laundries happen in Ireland under Irish Catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:24 AM

Yu are quick enough to condemn entire communities, religions and religions on the actions of a few criminals

I never have nor would.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM

"implanted Muslims, Slaver travellers, brainwashed Irish children don't count as communities, races or religions then
You and your mates have persistently denigrated them all - and have been given examples of hour having done so, so please don't ask again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM

Re grooming gangs, if you look at that 6 year old thread you will see that I was at pains to stress repeatedly that religion played no part and that although one demographic was over-represented, only a "tiny minority" were involved.
Likewise the slavery issue.

Can I suggest you restrict your posts to the current issue and not try to make it about me or long forgotten threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:11 AM

Abuse of children by representatives of christian religions, in particular, is reported on a sickeningly regular basis. It is high time that the powers that pertain in these organisations not only recognised just how prevalent it is, but acted to ensure it does not and cannot occur in future.

Until such time as that happens I believe it is imperitive that it is discussed openly and widely.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:23 AM

"Re grooming gangs, if you look at that 6 year old thread you will see that I was at pains to stress repeatedly that religion played no part "
Doesn't matter Keiuth - it was Muslims that you targeted which refers to a religion
You weven dredged a centuries old myth regarding Mohammed having a child bride to underline your claim that Muslims were inclind to Paedophelia
"Likewise the slavery issue.
"You selected the behaviour of 8 criminals to claim Travellers were "over-represented"
That is using criminality to target an entire ethnic community.
"Can I suggest you restrict your posts to the current issue and not try to make it about me or long forgotten threads."
You mean "can you move away from the embarrassing bits and allow you to defend the actions of the Christian church?"
'Fraid not Keith
Raggy just said it all for me
Jim Carroll
You have persisted in defending these crimes - you desist from doing so (or prove that unregistered births were not common) and all this will go away - until it is needed next time
What have you been told about trying to manipulate treads when they become uncomfortable
"When will they ever learn" as Pete Segger used to sing

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: ollaimh
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:53 AM

joe had the same rationalizations for former ss officers. they were 26 year old young men who made a few mistakes. must be forgiven. forgive rape and murder, well ask those raped and murdered(or their families) first.

these are sex criminals, and even in the united states sex tort committers. its' unforgivable and those who defend them are unforgivable. this is evil folks.

the gnostic dualists were right. main stream christians have been fooled into wordhipping an ashura(a kind of devil) and calling it god(loterally or figuratively the effect is the same). that's why they do so much evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM

Doesn't matter Keiuth - it was Muslims that you targeted which refers to a religion

That is a lie Jim. Count how many times that I stated that it was nothing to do with Islam.

On slavery we looked at every reported case since the current laws were enacted. There was a clear over-representation which has since become even more pronounced.

Again Jim, please stop trying to make this about me, and stop dredging up years old debates that have no relevance to this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:23 AM

"You make idiotic and patently untrue statements that do not stand up to the most cursory examination when challenged. You then resort to insults and deflection to cover your tracks as you retreat"

Example of Carroll doing precisely the above on this thread:

Jim Carroll - 19 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM

"implanted Muslims, Slaver travellers, brainwashed Irish children don't count as communities, races or religions then

To which Keith A replied:

Keith A of Hertford - 19 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM

Re grooming gangs, if you look at that 6 year old thread you will see that I was at pains to stress repeatedly that religion played no part and that although one demographic was over-represented, only a "tiny minority" were involved.
Likewise the slavery issue.

Can I suggest you restrict your posts to the current issue and not try to make it about me or long forgotten threads.

Classic deflection on Carroll's part, with the added bonus that most of the threads he harks back to were closed, so his massive "Cut'n'Paste" inserts guarantee closure of the new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:54 AM

An ode for Jimmie, as we have a vaguely religious theme:

Matthew 7:3-5
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:51 AM

It's a pity you didn't also say that it was nothing to do with Pakistani culture too, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:07 AM

"An ode for Jimmie, as we have a vaguely religious theme:"
Still resorting to vacuous copycat bullying Iains
Does the trail of closed threads tell you nothing about your childish behaviour?
"Example of Carroll doing precisely the above on this thread:"
"Classic deflection on Carroll's part,"
You are now a team of kamikaze trolls hell bent on destroying this forum
Hopefully you will be regarded as such by other members
You're not even good at this - I'd stick to your rural idylls of an England of white-cland vigins dancing around Maypoles
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:16 AM

Steve,
It's a pity you didn't also say that it was nothing to do with Pakistani culture too, Keith.

I did not say that it was.
I did say that I knew nothing about the culture, and the suggestion that culture was to blame came not from me but from numerous well informed people who were all British Pakistanis or Left Wing politicians or both.

Now, enough about me.
Anything to say about the Lanarkshire burials?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:43 AM

Yes Keith, and you quoted them ad nauseam in your appeal to authority. "It must be true because these high-ups said it." What you always do, Keith. The vast, vast majority of Pakistani men are decent, hard-working, law-abiding individuals. A very tiny minority engaged in despicable criminal activity in the Rochdale area, just as tiny minorities of all sorts of people indulge in despicable criminal activities all over the place. But that wasn't good enough for you. You hunted around for quotes to perpetuate the smear. You pretend it isn't you, shrugging your shoulders saying, well you don't have to listen to me, listen to the big-knobs - they must be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:53 AM

"It must be true because these high-ups said it."

I would never say that.
I did not need to hunt around for quotes. They were widely reported and no-one was contradicting them. Read what was said at the time.

. The vast, vast majority of Pakistani men are decent, hard-working, law-abiding individuals

I know, and have always said so.

A very tiny minority engaged in despicable criminal activity in the Rochdale area,

I agree, and that applies to all those other towns and cities where this has been an issue.

But enough about me and enough about grooming gangs.
What about the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:58 AM

"Anything to say about the Lanarkshire burials?"
You have already been given masses on the Lanarkshire burials which you choose to ignore
Anything to say on what has already been said?
The subject of this thread is " Catholic Abuse of Children" - not just Lanarkshire burials
Tha fact o unmarked graves and unresgistered deaths is a long standing and fully accepted fact, particularly in Ireland, where so many of them took place
Anything to say on them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 07:27 AM

This thread fell silent in August the last post being from Joe Offer on 21 Aug 17 - 12:59 PM. By that stage all chat about "Irish Catholic abuse of children" had been done to death.

The thread was reactivated in September the first post being from Jack Campin on 10 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM, where he was specifically address the reports about a mass grave being found containing the bodies of hundreds of children from the Smyllum Park Catholic Orphanage in Lanarkshire, Scotland.

With regard to and in relation to this discovery and Jack Campin's posted link we got this in response to a post from Joe Offer on the subject:

Jim Carroll - 13 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM

"I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse," - [Joe Offer}

"I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be."

In the case of the Smyllum Park Orphanage:

- There was nothing secret about the burials.
- The cause of death of each child was known, registered, recorded.
- The name of each child was known, registered and recorded.

Jim Carroll the purveyor of misinformation, misrepresentation and lies.

When called to account over these falsehoods he reverts to instances previously covered in the thread and attempts to say that that is what he was referring to in the post given above.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:32 AM

"Jim Carroll the purveyor of misinformation, misrepresentation and lies."
I do not tell lies – I have never told lies on this forum and you have never produced one single lie you have accused me of
In making this accusation you are obviously trying to wreck another thread in order to save face, as you have now done on several occasions
Please produce one singe lie have old on 5this subject – now will be a convenient time for you to do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:49 AM

I refer you to my previous post:

Teribus - 20 Sep 17 - 07:27 AM

And to YOUR post:

Jim Carroll - 13 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM

"I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse," - [Joe Offer}

"I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be."

In the case of the Smyllum Park Orphanage:

- There was nothing secret about the burials.
- The cause of death of each child was known, registered, recorded.
- The name of each child was known, registered and recorded.

Jim Carroll the purveyor of misinformation, misrepresentation and lies. As far as the Smyllum Park Orphanage in Lanarkshire is concerned you lied, misinformed and misrepresented what had been discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM

You have already had my response to this
The investigations into the Lanarkshire site is yet in its infancy and as there have been no exhumations carried out to date, there cannot possibly be a statement to say that all deaths were registered
The fact that the vast majority of cases have shown that unregistered deaths were common practice, there is no reason to believe that this will be any different
You really are going to have to do better than this pathetic claim of "lying"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:56 AM

Jim, the only allegation is that they were buried in an unmarked communal grave.
There is no suggestion of unregistered deaths. No exhumations are required.
Your claims were baseless.
Here is the story again. Read it this time!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/10/smyllum-park-lanark-orphanage-catholic-nuns-children-mass-grave-allegedly

"An inquiry by BBC Radio 4's File on 4 and the Sunday Post newspaper examined death certificates in archives and found 402 children from Smyllum Park."

"Records reveal that most of the deaths were due to natural causes, mainly from diseases such as TB, pneumonia and pleurisy. About a third of the victims were under the age of five, and the majority of the deaths occurred between 1870 and 1930."

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 11:57 AM

Can anyone on this forum interested in this topic, apart from Jom, tell me what they think a "secret burial" would entail.

Can anyone on this forum interested in this topic, apart from Jom, tell me what they think "without public knowledge" means.

Can anyone on this forum interested in this topic, apart from Jom, tell me what "without identifying them means

Now as far as those buried in the mass grave at Smyllum Park Orphanage go:

1: There was nothing secret about the burials. The grave was Known to have existed - so no secret burial involved.
2: The cause of death of each child was known, registered, recorded - so much for lack of public knowledge
3: The name of each child was known, registered and recorded - so much for them being unidentified

We are talking here about an institution that operated from 1864 until it closed 1981. In this time over 11,000 children lived there. Within that number over the course of those 117 years 402 children died and there are death certificates for every single one of them. In each case the cause of death was known and registered. They were buried in an unmarked pauper's grave - Just to get things into perspective - In the 21st Century, approximately 2,500 Scots per year are buried at Council expense in similar unmarked pauper's graves.

In the case of the childrens remains found in Tuam in the West of Ireland, they were not buried in what was known to be a mass pauper's grave, they were buried in what was commonly thought to be an old cesspit, there were no records detailing who was buried there, there were no causes of death officially recorded. The two cases are so far apart in every single detail that were it a distance it would be measured in "light years". Yet we have Jom yelling for exhumations and investigations - in the case of the Smyllum Park Orphanage - WHAT FOR??

Of course it could be the Jom "pay-back" thing and he is looking for the Catholic Church to pay for separate funerals and headstones. But in Jom's mathematics there is always only one-side to any equation. It would only be fair wouldn't it, that if the Catholic Church has to pay-out for separate funerals and headstones for 402 children then the people of Scotland would in turn have to recompense the Catholic Church for the costs of staff and resources related to the care, supervision, housing and food for all 11,000 orphans from 1864 until 1981.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 01:46 PM

Teribus, I certainly have no reason to give an endorsement of your conduct. You're high up on the list of problem posters. I won't shut the thread down yet, although other moderators may.
I'm going to delete several squabbling posts that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 01:58 PM

Not looking for any endorsement Joe - just simple honest discussion. If someone posts something or a view I hold a counter view to I feel as though I have a right to state my view - that surely is what free speech is about. If someone posts something that simply is not true then I will tell them so, explaining and providing substantiation for my view. If I post something that is untrue or incorrect my posting history shows that I acknowledge the error and apologise for making it. Great pity that a lot more people on this forum do not do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 02:04 PM

For Jimmie:
soupçon=a very small quantity of something. Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 02:39 PM

"oupçon=a very small quantity of something. Get it?"
???????????????????????
"I'm going to delete several squabbling posts that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion."
Wonderful idea Joe - is there an chance you can continue to do so?
THat will clean up the atmosphere no end and no one else need suffer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM

If someone posts something or a view I hold a counter view to I feel as though I have a right to state my view

Absolutely spot on tezzer but that is not what you do is it? You may state your view but it is often lost in the bile you spew and the contempt you show for those who do oppose your view. You are the leader when it comes to abrasiveness and while others may try to emulate you they do not come close. If that is what you want to achieve, well done. But if you really want 'simple honest discussion' then you need to state your case simply and honestly without the rancour that usually surrounds it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:39 PM

I say the following as someone who is high up on the list of problem posters according to Joe Offer - In that case Gnome stick to addressing the content of the message not the messenger.

You and your pals treatment of posts by Keith A of Hertford on this forum over the last four years has been an absolute bloody disgrace that the Moderators seem to have turned a blind eye to.

" You may state your view but it is often lost in the bile you spew and the contempt you show for those who do oppose your view"

Exactly the same can be said of Shaw and Carroll - Any reason that you have never pulled them up on it? They have been paid like for like - but as you are all typical bullies you have shown that you can only dish it out - squeal like stuck pigs when the traffic is reversed. And in stating all of the above I have directly addressed points made in your post that was directed to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:49 PM

No need to get yourself a persecution complex, Teribus. No-one here bar the mods has a clue who has been privately taken to task for their behaviour here by the moderator team. The thing is, you invited that public rebuke. Most of us are dealt with in private, and, believe you me, it's at least several of the people you refer to. You've hurt a lot of people here with your insults, and your acting all hurt today is unbecoming to say the least. Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:03 PM

The first line of your refutation (Exactly the same can be said of Shaw and Carroll - Any reason that you have never pulled them up on it? ) would have been an example of being simple and honest and I could have happily responded. The rest of your post was the bile and rancour I mentioned. I know I am no saint but I do try to treat people with respect. It is usually when they do something to lose that respect that I respond in kind. Doesn't always work but I do try. Maybe if you did the same you would get more respect yourself.

But we should not be discussing argument and discussion per se on a thread about something so important. I have had my say on that subject. If you feel you need to continue down that road feel free but it may be better to bring it up on a separate thread.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:52 PM

OK, so back to the topic of discussion.
My disagreement with many posters on both sides of many discussions at Mudcat is this: My belief is that on most issues, few if any people or groups are all right or all wrong. By the way, I think that this is brilliantly demonstrated in the Harry Potter series of books, which I think is an excellent treatise on morality and moral decisions. Heck, even Hogwarts has Slytherin. There is a wide spectrum of belief and conduct within every institution and every group of people - so if you issue a blanket condemnation of an individual or group or institution, you're most likely wrong.

In this discussion, there have been far too many blanket statements and condemnations, and far too much inaccurate information. I gather that in Europe, the general tendency is to consider physical and sexual abuse together as "abuse." In the U.S., the word "abuse" usually refers to physical and emotional abuse; and sexual abuse or molestation is considered separately. We use the same words, but there are different shades of meaning that can cause confusion.

In our parents' generation and before, there was far more tolerance of both physical and emotional abuse in the raising of children, both in families and in institutions. That tolerance of abuse also existed in the treatment of employees in the workplace, and in the treatment of offenders by law enforcement. There was less tolerance for sexual abuse, but even that was condoned in many situations. But harsh and abusive treatment was often almost viewed as a virtue, so that parents and teachers would not "spoil" children.

Since physical and emotional abuse were the rule of society for our ancestors, I think we need to consider that abuse in context, recognizing that was allowable and even praised in the past is not acceptable now and must be prevented in the future. Therefore, I think it is better in this case to concentrate on the present and future, and place less emphasis on the past - without ignoring or excusing it.

Sexual abuse is a different matter - it has always been unacceptable, and it should be punished with more severity. Still, I think it is very important that in our investigation of the misdeeds of the past, we do not forget the present or the future.

And on top of that, I think that it is important that we do not condemn or punish all members of a group for the misdeeds of the few. Many of the condemnations in this thread are so broad that they seek to condemn and restrict and punish many admirable and innocent people.

So, make the brush a little narrower, willya?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 07:14 PM

As for the shock about indigent children being buried in a mass grave, that seems to me to be much ado about nothing. Burial in unmarked graves seems to have been common practice for most people throughout the history of humankind. Only rich people got gravestones or monuments.
As for me, I don't particularly care what happens to my body after I die. I'll leave that choice to my family. I think I'd like to be cremated and scattered in the woods near my home, but I want to make it clear that burial in a cemetery or a veteran's cemetery is ok with me, too. I don't even really care whether I have a religious funeral or not, as long as people have a good time and do some singing.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:13 PM

"Burial in unmarked graves seems to have been common practice for most people throughout the history of humankind."
Not in the 'civilised West' Joe, and certainly not in Catholic Ireland, where ritual burial has been a psychological and spiritual necessity and had been part of Catholic life for as long as Catholicism has held sway here.
It is so important that there are only two crematoriums in the whole of Ireland - so important is it to undergo the correct process before they can be considered correctly dispatched 'to meet their maker'
We have finally managed to arrange that our remains will be donated to medical research, with a great deal of difficulty, so uncommon is a practice that is still largely frowned on and misunderstood
One of "the great silences" of Irish history has been The Irish Famine - one serious published work in a century and a half, and that was written by an Englishwoman.
Yet throughout Ireland, a major part of Irish folk memory has been the unmarked mass famine graves - the Irish were prepared to forget the horror of the Famine for all that time but not not the fact that the victims were deprived of a proper burial
Ireland is dotted with patches of 'hungry grass' where, if you cross them you are smitten with 'hunger pains' because they are unmarked Famine Graves.
Another major cause for concern are the 'Killeens'; the graveyards of newly born children who were refused a Christian burial because the priest wasn't on hand to bless administer last rites before their short lives were over.
Unless things are very different in your part of the world, I believe that your 'Hogwarts' reference is somewhat flippant - yet another excuse for the behaviour of your church..
The occurrence of unregistered deaths is a matter of legality, not religion
Couple these with the extreme brutality associated with these homes and you have what is described in the detective shows as 'a suspicious death'
"Keith A of Hertford"
Keith is an obsessive who has brought all his problems on this forum on himself - this thread being an example
His 'last man standing' approach and his obsession to 'win something' is the cause of all his problems, not the fault of those who argue his points, which are usually extremist to the most basic level.
If you are referring to Keith's health - it is hiw own choice to participate in these arguments - it would be patonising on our part to refuse to do so on these grounds
If you, he or anybody wants to hold a "I'll show you how ill I man if you'll do the same" bring it on!
I'm sick and tired of having my hole poked and pieces nipped out of by prostate over the last ten years, and don't get me started about the removals of suspected skin-cancer tissues from my face, or my sleep apnea tests, or my hearing problems....
I'm off to Galway in a couple for weeks a major operation - wish me luck girls.....!
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for bringing Keith up considering the self-harm he constantly inflicts on this forum - that is little more than emotional blackmail.
I hope Joe does not delete this before people have a chance to read it - then feel free Joe
I find it insulting that anybody should be expected to respond to such a despicable tactic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 12:52 AM

Nothing flippant about my "Hogwarts" reference at all, Jim. I think that the Harry Potter series is a very good study of the process of making and evaluating moral decisions. Its approach is far more rational and far less judgmental than yours.

How can you say there has been only "one serious published work in a century and a half" on the Irish Famine? A quick look at Amazon shows over 20 pages of book listings on the subject, and many of those appear to be serious works.

As for cremation, this link (click) indicates that there are at least five crematoriums in Ireland, instead of the two you speak of.

As for killeens (cillín), they are for babies who have died without baptism, not without the "last rites." Unbaptized babies are not members of the Church, so they do not receive a church burial. There is, however, no reason why they cannot be buried with prayer and respect. Seems to me that burial in a separate graveyard can serve to honor the special grief that comes with the death of a child who died in infancy. Pope Benedict declared over a decade ago that the mostly-forgotten concept of "limbo" was flawed theology, so the assumption then is that unbaptized infants go straight to heaven when they die.

So, with all the misinformation you give us, what are we supposed to be able to believe of what you have to say? Maybe you'd be better off spending less time condemning and more time researching.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 01:27 AM

"Hungry Grass"!!!! Whatever fairy-tale will we get next?

So Carroll has worked the thread round now to the Famine - It will the BDS campaign against Israel next by way of the Sabra/Shatila massacre (Mass graves involved there too only Carroll claims they aren't unmarked there is a bloody great sports stadium built over them which in it's clearance, construction, and two further extensive redevelopments did not even turn up so much as one single human bone fragment - Bit odd that for a supposed mass grave containing thousands of bodies)

Now why walking over a patch of grass should give people hunger pains I do not know. But it does follow along with the myth. Reality is the majority of people who died during what is referred to as "The Great Hunger" DID NOT DIE OF STARVATION - they died from diseases that at the time knew no cure, and they died in epidemic proportions so of course they were buried in mass graves as quickly as possible exactly as those who centuries before them had died from the Plague. Anybody wishing to check this can consult a few of the many books written on the subject over the past 160 years (Joe Offer can advise you on what to Google to find them).

No point at all in discussing with anyone whose main points in a discussion are downright lies. No point at all in discussing with anyone who when his lies are demonstrated to be lies refuses to acknowledge the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 02:21 AM

Joe, regarding the sexual abuse scandals( the Scottish asylum story is simply media hype), you say work with a smaller brush.
Concentrate on the perpetrators not the organisation as a whole you say, I agree, but when that has been attempted you are one of the first to step in and deny what seems to be patently obvious in terms of homosexuality in the priesthood.

Sometimes in real life you just have to bite the bullet, real life is not some fiction, where a happy ending is always assured.

If one is serious about getting to the root of a serous problem you need to leave your liberal sensibilities at the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 03:06 AM

"Burial in unmarked graves seems to have been common practice for most people throughout the history of humankind."
Not in the 'civilised West' Joe, and certainly not in Catholic Ireland, where ritual burial has been a psychological and spiritual necessity and had been part of Catholic life for as long as Catholicism has held sway here."
The above is a bit of a misleading simplification. The right of burial does not automatically carry the right to erect a headstone or it's equivalent,and that is apart from suicides, bastards,paupers and unbaptized babies.

burial laws

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 03:35 AM

"How can you say there has been only "one serious published work in a century and a half"
Joe
The Famine ended in 1850 - between then and 1995, the150th anniversary of its beginning, there was only one comprehensive study of the Famine - 'The Great hunger' by Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith, and that was written in 1962
For political and possibly social reasons, the subject was avioded - "like the plague" so to speak!
Ireland needed and continues to need somewhere to send its constantly emigrating population and Britain is the first port of call, so why upset them by rubbing their noses in one of their great atrocities.
Even the centenary produced nothing
A combination of The Celtic Tiger and the century and a half anniversary opened the floodgates and produced the works you found on Amazon.
"As for cremation, this link (click) indicates that there are at least five crematoriums in Ireland, instead of the two you speak of."
I stand corrected Joe - all are relatively new,
Only Glasnevin existed when we moved here 18 years ago, the Cork one was till being fought over (I'm amused to see the address - the original application was for one in the ork town of "Ovens"
The rest all post-date that and are very recent - probably since the Clerical sex scandals hit the fan
"died without baptism, not without the "last rites."
Again, I stand corrected - still a heathen at heart
You appear to be defending these atrocities - they have always been regarded as offensive to the ordinary people - there have been recorded examples of children being secretly dug up from Killeens and reburied with their families
Interestingly, since the church's decline there has been a move to recognise the stigma of these monstrosities and acknowledge them as the injustice that they were
You will find no deliberate misinformation in my post, a piece of ignorance on religious jargon and a failure on my part to keep up with rapidly moving events in Ireland, that is all
Your explanation is yet another feeble excuse used by the church to justify injustice
"Hungry Grass"!!!! Whatever fairy-tale will we get next?"
I have explained what the term refers to - it is a superstition here regarding the famine which has a foundation in the fact that the whole Ireland is covered with unmarked graves holding the corpses of those who were not buried because the English were too concerned with driving the survivors off their lands and, if possible, out of the country to allow them to bury their dead.
Every culture on the planet has similar superstitions, so please don't make this another missile for your hatred of the Irish
"So Carroll has worked the thread round now to the Famine "
I worked this around to nothing - Joe raised the question of the importance of burial, I gave examples
If you cannot understand the relevance of beliefs such as this to explaining the importance that Catholics (not just the Irish ones) attach to the ritual of burial, then you are out of your depth in subjects such as this.
You want to revisit settled subjects like Sabra Shatila or the Famine to try and win back the territory you have long lost, feel free to re-open th relevant threads - don't clutter up this subject with it.
More "lies" and still no examples
"So Carroll has"
"Carroll claims "
You seem to have blown this one yet again and are left with only personal insults nad attempts at talking down to - good
Now perhaps you'll leave the stage and let those who are happy to discuss this subject do so with the degree of respect you are obviously unable to aspire to
Perhaps we can persuade Ake to take his antediluvian, homophobic hatred back to the sewer in which it should never have been dredged at the same time   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM

"The right of burial does not automatically carry the right to erect a headstone"
Nothing to do with headstones Iains - just the right of access to the "proper" procedure of burial embraced by ny culture
Both the burials under discussion and the Killeens did not meet up to those rights
Not "misleading simplification" but telling it as it is and is now widely recognised as wrong and sometimes, possibly criminal
I eally suggest you people need to read through what has happened in Ireland over the last decade or so and if you have any regard at all for your various religions, come to terms with it and learn.
The main victims nowadays are the traditional long-term believers who are having their lives torn apart by these revelations
I find that distressing if you do not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 04:10 AM

At the same time period of the great famine the highland clearances occurred.Prior to the clearances the highlands suffered from the last repeated famines on mainland Britain. Native peoples were being exterminated in numerous countries.People were dying as paupers in workhouses in the UK. Do you think the Irish are the only people to be victims? Am I a victim because I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth?
Jim, the only posts you make are totally negative. You miss no opportunity to denigrate the English while portraying the Irish as the forsaken people. Rights, wrongs, abuses have occurred throughout history. Get over it. For God's sake try and lighten up and shock us all by posting something happy. You cast doom and despondency over every thread you touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 04:31 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:13 PM

"Burial in unmarked graves seems to have been common practice for most people throughout the history of humankind."
Not in the 'civilised West' Joe, and certainly not in Catholic Ireland, where ritual burial has been a psychological and spiritual necessity and had been part of Catholic life for as long as Catholicism has held sway here.

Until recently.
It seems the Roman Catholic church has accepted cremation since 1963. Maybe Ireland has yet to catch up. Here

I believe that past restrictions against cremation were more about keeping the body in one piece and in one place, ready for the resurrection. Organ donation, and the rise in the popularity of cremation, have affected this view. Wales is well advanced in this as we have Deemed consent. Unless you have registered your objection, it can be assumed that you wish your organs to be available for transplant after death.

Some might not think this a 'forward' move, but it removes the need to place oneself on a donors register.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 05:53 AM

"Do you think the Irish are the only people to be victims? "
Have I ever suggested they are?
The Clearances were as much an atrocity as was the handling of the famine but the comparison of natural disasters in other parts of the world is frankly ridiculous
At the time of both British events the British Empire was the wealthiest in the world with the ability to feed the starving Scots and Irish without even going to the bank
Not only did it not do so but it continued to ship food out of Ireland for profit and refuse to open the locked warehouses that contained enough food to feed the population for the duration of the Famine
Tenant families who were unable to pay rents because of the crop failure were evicted, turned out on the road and left homeless in their many thousands - some survived by scraping out shelters in the fields, others died by the roadsides
The alternatives offered to the Irish were emigrate or die - ethnic cleansing at best, but in fact genocide
In the last twenty years documented evidence has now been published which indicates that this was a deliberate policy on the part of the British to solve 'The Irish Question'
The man appointed to handle famine relief. Sir Charles Trevelyan, hated the Irish and described the Famine as "God's punishment" for their evil nature
He closed relief workhouses and forced those who could afford to, to buy food at market prices, (Laissez-faire)leaving those who couldn't under the care of woefully ill-equipped charities like the Quakers to bear the brunt of the burden
Protestant charities operated a "souper" system - "we'll feed you if you change your religion."
You spoiled your perfectly sensible question with your usually insulting innuendo and accusation - you really will never learn, will you?
I do not seek to "denigrate" the English - I condemn outright the murderous policies of its administrations, including those wielded against English working people
IThe only hatred I have seen expressed against the English i that by the contributors to this forum who describe its workers as layabouts not fit to be educated, its hospital patients as malingerers as bed-blockers, and its peple as a whole as potential itinerant labour if there is no work in their own place of residence
The hatred of the English people as proposed on this forum regularly as now reached racist proportions
Nigel
You are right of course - the Church reluctantly removed the ban on cremation in the early sixties - the position remained as I have described in Ireland until the Church began to lose its power following the cherical rape scandals
There are still only five crematoriums as Jowe pointed out three have emerged since the Clerical abuse scandal
THe church here is now attempting to prevent to scatter the ashes of the deceased over the sea or mountains, or any other place the deceased might have requested
They even do battle with the dead in their efforts to stay in control
Jim Carroll