BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:36 AM

Irate Diner - "Waiter.. Waiter.. what's this Halal meat doing on my plate !!!!!!!???"

Waiter - "I am so sorry Sir, please try to stay calm and still..
it's plotting the downfall of Christian British traditions and values..
I'll report chef immediately to the anti terrorism authorities..."... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:25 AM

Exactly, pfr. In other words, the campaign to get halal on food labels has racist undertones. I mean, why not put on the label "this chicken was injected with antibiotics to enable the farmer to keep it in overcrowded conditions in a darkened shed with 40,000 other birds". Or, "this milk was produced by a highly-bred cow with an udder so huge that it has trouble moving around the field for half the day". Or, "this pork chop came from a pig that was force-fed in stinking concrete sheds crowded together with other pigs, covered in shit, for the whole of its life and it never saw the light of day..."

Anyone else detect the rank smell of hypocrisy...?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM

I'd expect "Halal" is a trigger word demonised by the likes of the Mail and Express, and even more virulent online blog sites..
So a large proportion of their mass readership would probably be conditioned into a response of disgust and terror if seeing it on a food label...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM

What a silly post. Each and every one of the thousands of children lucky enough to be taught by me is now a senior professor at Oxbridge, except for one. Disappointingly, one of them only managed it at Imperial College, but I'll get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:53 AM

"Suppose you put "halal" on a label. I wonder how many people would know what it meant... "

Probably not the poor schoolchildren that you taught. They were probably fixated on escaping from your "winning ways"

Alternatively it gives the rest of us a wonderful insight into your arrogant air of superiority. The rest of humanity are not as ignorant as you would presume shaw.

Now where were we before you butted in?(again)

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:41 AM

Suppose you put "halal" on a label. I wonder how many people would know what it meant...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:38 AM

Just to demonstrate my default stance of relative neutrality and objectivity...

It's the 21st Century.

Labels could be based on bar code or similar technology and easily scanned with mobiles phones.
Giving scope for as much text as required.

The problematic area is obviously what information and why...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:35 AM

It's rather odd to be accused of being fixated on halal when I'm posting in a thread about halal...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:19 AM

"And how were they to be slaughtered? And did Grandad buy his pants from those guys? Bet they were good prices. And what is the point of your post?"

They were to have a small incision made in the throat and hung up till they had bled to death. The incision had to be small to prolong life so that all blood had drained from the carcase.
My Grand father was a born and bred countryman with a wonderful understanding of animal and human life, he was also an expert beekeeper, specialising in Scottish heather honey.
There was not an inch of cruelty in his body, he is still fondly remembered in these parts, though he died in the 1960s.
He was appalled when he learned about the means of slaughter which were to be employed
When hens had to be killed for local consumption, grandfather would "thraw the neck" a skill which made death instantaneous and pain free.

As the Indian traders sold mainly rubbish at inflated prices grandfather used the draper who ran a mobile shop over a wide local area....They point of my post is that IMO the halal method of slaughter is cruel and based on a warped religious doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:14 AM

Still no answer - I get the impression that all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat - even those which are Hindu owned. Are there any exceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 05:11 AM

Shaw.
" So recording the whole upbringing of the animal from its birth, the level of welfare applied, whether intensively reared, free-range (whatever that means - have you ever looked into it, Iains?)"

For a man that claims to do his homework Shaw you appear woefully ignorant.
Are you here to stimulate discussion or merely to provoke argument and dissent????????????????????????????????

The links below are an incomplete brief synopsis of the required records for all livestock to satisfy EU regulations.
AS can be seen each animal has a discrete herd number and unique tag.Records must be kept of it's movement, feed regime, and veterinary treatments up to the time of slaughter. With computerised records it is the press of a button to generate the necessary labels.
If you wish to start a thread about little red tractors, feel free! Perhaps the more adult of us can then continue.
Furthermore you must be remarkably dense or pursuing a clearly racist agenda with your fixation on halal food. I have clearly stated innumerable timess that my concern is with the 20% halal meat that is not pre-stunned.
Your constant harping on about racism is clearly just to provoke argument. Do you not think you have done enough damage driving people away over the last couple of days?
Shaw"Perhaps because "halal" is such a short, convenient, emotive word. That's all that seems to matter to you. That's your obsession. That last few seconds that just might have been brought about by an Islamic practice."
Again an example of you carefully missing a clearly stated argument in order to pursue your racist labeling. You are a disgrace!


http://smallholderseries.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=382:legal-documents-a-paperwork-a-guide-to-registeri


https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/publications/templates-required-records-animal-food-and-feed-hygiene

https://www.gov.uk/topic/keeping-farmed-animals/cattle-identity-registration

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/animals-and-agriculture/keeping-veterinary-medicine-records

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 03:32 AM

That may be, robomatic, who can say?

However, I think it unlikely: the moral dimension of eating meat has been discussed for many centuries without being settled. More likely, I think, it that it will more influenced by fashion and economics than morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:14 AM

I think in the not-too-distant future we'll all be regarded as barbarians for eating animals

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:58 PM

Would that be like your arrogant disdain for all things Christian [sic}?

So you rather like rank hypocrites who claim to be Christians then, Boo?

No surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:23 PM

And how were they to be slaughtered? And did Grandad buy his pants from those guys? Bet they were good prices. And what is the point of your post?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:13 PM

Back in the fifties my grandfather had a small poultry farm, he sold eggs and chickens to the butchers for small money to eke out the family budget.

At that time there were very few foreigners around only a few Indians and Pakistanis selling clothes from suitcases.
They wanted to buy some chickens from grandfather, but insisted that they had to be live.
My grandfather refused to sell them after finding out how they were to be slaughtered.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:11 PM

"...so recording the type of slaughter and labelling accordingly should be no big deal."

Great. So recording the whole upbringing of the animal from its birth, the level of welfare applied, whether intensively reared, free-range (whatever that means - have you ever looked into it, Iains?), organic, "freedom food," that vacuous thingie with the little red tractor, what antibiotics were routinely used in order to enable safer overcrowding... all this is not any of your concern. Well, obviously you don't want your label to be too complicated. Just the last few seconds of the animal's life needs highlighting. But only if it's halal. We're not asking for any other slaughter methods to be highlighted. Perhaps because "halal" is such a short, convenient, emotive word. That's all that seems to matter to you. That's your obsession. That last few seconds that just might have been brought about by an Islamic practice.

Know what that makes you, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:11 PM

Iains - your reasoning is at least honest and to the point,
and deserving of more serious consideration than Keith's spurious excuses for labeling...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:11 PM

Iains - your reasoning is at least honest and to the point,
and deserving of more serious consideration than Keith's spurious excuses for labeling...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 04:50 PM

The foxhunting ban was created to prevent what was seen as needless cruelty of hunting foxes with dogs.
If this reasoning was sufficient to change the law then it is equally reasonable that the 20% of halal meat sold in the UK that is not prestunned should at least be labelled clearly so that those that feel strongly about it can make an informed choice. Many people buy meat from convenience stores and supermarkets so enquiring as to the provenance of the meat is not quite so straightforward as some would like to imagine.
There is an audit trail of the meat from birth to butchery and eventual sale, so recording the type of slaughter and labelling accordingly should be no big deal.
It seems to me that those that managed to work up a frenzy on the foxhunting thread should have similar feelings about needless cruelty on this thread also.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 04:19 PM

I am speaking purely from a Church of England viewpoint of course!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 04:09 PM

All things arrogant and disdainful
The lord god* made them all...


[* other gods are available]... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:55 PM

Anything like your arrogant disdain for all things Muslim?

Would that be like your arrogant disdain for all things Christian [sic}?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:13 PM

I'm sure British Muslims will be so delighted that a goodly kindhearted christian is championing their dietary needs..

Without labels how would they ever know for certain what to buy,
and with them you'll have the immediate convenience of knowing what to avoid... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:01 PM

I am no devout anything, but I suppose that devout Muslims who want halal meat will go to a halal butcher.

Fer chrissake. They don't need labels, and if you want to know if any meat you buy is halal, well you've got a tongue in your head.

I buy a lot of stuff from my favourite butcher, with whom I have a great relationship, and I always ask him where his meat comes from. I can tell you precisely where he gets all his beef, pork, chickens and lamb from. A very odd thing, Keith, is that not one scrap of meat have I bought from him that ever had a label of any sort attached to it. Just for fun, one day I'll tell him all about you and ask him whether any of his meat is halal. I predict a funny uncomprehending look.

Why don't you join the real world instead of looking for trouble all the time? Go and have a foaming pint or ten in that nice pub down the canal in Hertford and mellow out.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 01:15 PM

Btw.. my next door neighbour is a young catering manager, I think he may be muslim..
Shall I knock on his door and ask him to join mudcat to talk with you...??

Though I suspect he might be too busy with his work shifts and new born baby...

Poor chap looks very stressed enough as it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 01:11 PM

Keith - remember.. your debate 'tactics' don't work with me..

I keep posting for my own amusement, and because I care deeply about food quality,
and genuine concerns about animal welfare for those that are killed to sustain me...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 01:02 PM

PFR, you may not care but many people feel they have a right to know so they can make an informed choice, and do you not care about Muslim people's absolute need to know?

This is not just about you, and if you really do not care why do you keep posting?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 12:30 PM

all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat

What exactly do you mean by "arrogantly"?

Anything like your arrogant disdain for all things Muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM

Keith - what do i think about it...???

Well... I think you are really making an almighty meal of all this...

I've said quite explicitly in several posts I don't care..

It does not matter at all to me what religion butcher's and professional animal killers believe in.

Animals will suffer to some extent on the painometer however they are slaughtered...

I can't stand sanctimonious hypocrites...

That's what I think... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

So is it OK to label Halal or not?
I think it should be and have given my reasons.
I think Dave does too though he has been a bit ambiguous, but after all these posts who knows what Steve, Rag or PFR think about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:42 AM

Bonz - whatever your reasons for starting it, this thread reminds me of militant food politics issues from my student days in the 1980s..
Stuff i no longer think about after years of succumbing to 'normal' consumer lifestyle intellectual torpor...

I tried being a veggie on and of for a few years, shared a flat with a completely spaced out vegan who had barely any sense of 'normality'...
I wonder how she's coped since, after 35 years of harsh reality...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:04 AM

Ah I hadn't thought of the veggie restaurants, but I think that we'll stick to Argentine beef which is reared for us "normal" meat eaters!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:58 AM

Bonz - all Indian Restaurants...????

Wot.. even the veggie restaurants...!!!??? 😝


[there used to be a great Indian Veggie Restaurant 'all u can eat' buffet in Islington...wonder if it's still there...???]

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM

Back to the original question which still requires an answer!!!

I get the impression that all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat - even those which are Hindu owned. Are there any exceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:06 AM

saltwater...???

sorry can't do... high blood pressure, salt is off the menu...

... and I don't like any fish or sea foods apart from cod in batter...

Actually, we haven't mentioned lobsters yet...
How humane is being boiled alive...????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 09:40 AM

pfr how about you start to show us how it is done. I suggest you start with a saltwater croc and work up.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 09:34 AM

Ok.. a more humane compromise...

Don't stun or kill animals for meat... eat them alive... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 06:34 AM

The Independent,
"Yet now the RSPCA says that, when compared to methods that involve stunning the animal beforehand, it can cause unnecessary suffering, pain and distress."
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/what-is-halal-meat-the-big-questions-about-religious-slaughter-answered-9331519.html
I believe the RSPCA.

The Guardian,
"The president-elect of the British Veterinary Association (BVA) John Blackwell said he wanted to discuss the (slaughter) issue with Jewish and Muslim groups in order to find a compromise that puts more emphasis on the welfare of the animal.
"I don't think an outright ban is a long way off, there is enough of a view that this practice is inhumane and causes suffering at the time of death," said Blackwell."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/reform-of-kosher-and-halal-slaughter-practices
I believe him.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 06:26 AM

Steve,
So do tell us, Keith, about how on EARTH have "Muslim folk" (patronising twat) managed until now to identify the kind of meat they are allowed to eat?

If it is not labelled they can not be sure and are forced to go elsewhere when perfectly acceptable food is available.
They HAVE to find a source that IS labelled.

Do you object to labelling or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 08:03 PM

we raise meat animals and have butchered some for our own use... since many of our neighbors are farmers and/or hunters we use a rifle to do the killing and then cut the jugular to bleed them out. Since the animal is at home and offered a favorite food they are not stressed and never know what hit them. we only do one at a time and away from the rest...

it's the big industrialized farming corporations that are run by bean counters, not husbandrymen that know and care for their stock, that I see as the real problem

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:49 PM

And Inanes: are you also dubious of analyses of halal slaughter made by anti-Muslim bigots like the OP of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:32 PM

WELL DONE GREG> It looks like you have finally managed to construct proper sentences. Did you pop up out of your burrow to make a meaningful contribution or just be a Vexatious little troll?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:18 PM

I am afraid I am slightly dubious of "scientific reports" written by advocates of halal or shechita slaughter.

Don't be afraid.

Are you equally dubious of "scientific reports" written by opponents of halal or shechita slaughter?

Possibly like the Professor's anonymous "veterinarians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:57 PM

robomatic. interesting series of links, but I think the EU regulations are based on scientific standards at least of equivalence.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:303:0001:0030:EN:PDF

I am afraid I am slightly dubious of "scientific reports" written by advocates of halal or shechita slaughter. The results have to be agenda driven.

Religion versus reason has been a stumbling block in many spheres-and applies to most if not all religions and in my view the above "controversy" is but one more manifestation.
History shows that the advance of science faces numerous stumbling blocks without adding the vagaries of religion to the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:51 PM

believe the veterinarians that it causes unnecessary suffering.

But Professor, Is that ALL veterinarians? Are those LIVING veterinarians? Are they MAINSTREAM veterinarians? Are they EMINENT veterinarians? Are their books available in regular high-street bookstores?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:56 PM

I am less than impressed with requirements of 'stunning' laid on by supposed professionals or experts. It may be a precurser to a form of killing that is undeniably coarse and painful. It may be an attempt to justify any kind of killing by assuring it is done in a pro forma manner.

I am guided by the works of Temple Grandin, someone whose story I've read and whose ideas on animal treatment I take seriously. Some of her writings on the internet are available here.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM

So do tell us, Keith, about how on EARTH have "Muslim folk" (patronising twat) managed until now to identify the kind of meat they are allowed to eat?

You couldn't make this up!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 03:32 PM

The only label that I would like to see is that slaughter was in line with EU legislation, not as the result of a dispensation. This would encompass all meat other than the approx. 20% halal that is not pre stunned prior to slaughter. At the end of the day dead is dead. Both religious and secular slaughter is supposed to be humane. The EU legislation has clearly been framed from the perspective that pre stunning is more humane.

I have no problem eating meat, but as I eat it I want to be satisfied it was not tortured prior to slaughter. Legislation concerning livestock controls every aspect of the animal's life from birth to death, with welfare being the main driver.
As I have previously outlined good stockmanship generates the greater profit. Poor shelter, poor feed, poor welfare, poor transportation impacts profit. Unlike certain donkey homes, farms are run as profit centers, not charities. Those fluffy lambs that get caught up in gorse or brambles cost money to dispose of, instead of making money when they reach killweight. There is sufficient risk in livestock farming, especially upland sheep, without adding cruelty to the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 03:04 PM

I would not buy it because I believe the veterinarians that it causes unnecessary suffering.
Nothing racist in that.
I choose organic for the same reason.