BS: blood & soil Nazification of America

Subject: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 07:34 PM

Blood and Soil was the chant outside the Charlottesville church by Nazis armed with torches, guns* and clubs. In the church were people some of you have characterized as snowflakes.

Trump denounced the eventual killings and maiming of dozens as "we are Americans first, we condemn this violence on many sides, on many sides, that has gone on for a long time." He did this in a tepid and bored voice. (on every side?)

The flood gates are open for the alt right, KKK, white supremacists and the Nazis. This is not a hypothetical prediction anymore. I have seen this coming for 10 years.

This is not even the end of the beginning of a Fourth Reich.
This is a brown shirt win for Trump-Bannon.

After the torches at night the main event of violence began before 11 AM.   

*VA is a legal open carry state.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 07:51 PM

We saw it on the news tonight. I'll take your post as a cri de couer. I'm just wondering where it's going to take us, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 08:13 PM

It's striking that this latest terrorist attack indicates that the American far right seem to be copying the tactics of Daesh supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 09:12 PM

The American Taliban has been in our vernacular for many years.
Of 210 million whites the small numbers of Nazis will swell with blood lust, lies, NRA love, Trump permission and misplaced vengeance that began on Wall St. . The audacity of a black president to racists created the largest surge in gun and ammo sales in history.

They have won precedence. There will be more blood and martyrs. They will not defeat the constitution. They must not but with executive protection and Trump Russian like collaboration it may be a desperate struggle that stains this nation permanently.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:21 AM

One hopes that something will eventually compel the GOP to push their president out of office. His tolerance of this Nazi march *seems* like the final straw, but the GOP desire to undo the Great Society as envisioned by Lyndon Johnson seems unquenchable. So far. Until the rich pay no taxes and the poor get no benefits, they won't be happy. And Trump won't be happy. Something else is going to have to nudge him out of office. What do you want to bet that millions of pissed off Americans might just manage it? He can't block all of us on Twitter. Frankly, at this point, I don't care if he ends up deceased or in prison. He never should have been put in office, the numbers will eventually show the Russian interference in critical states, but he needs to be marched out of the White House, and his lapdog Pence, too.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:22 AM

I hadn't been familiar with the term 'snowflake' there's an interesting story behind it - but it has developed opposing meanings, so I'm confused.

I agree with Acme that current extreme actions may drive the GOP into a more moderate stance, maybe to the point of impeachment.

And I don't think this is a problem with Charlottesville or the University of Virginia. These are "outside agitators" who came from all over.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 02:40 AM

I'm not quite as bleak as Donuel. This seems like a chance (the final chance?) to wake the asleep, embolden the timid, to shame the previously shameless. I think Trump is hopeless; in my opinion his mental disease has progressed too far for him to veer from his course, but there are lots of Republicans out there who may be reached.

Just had a peculiar thought: Wouldn't it be ironic if after Trump having reported that he had escaped venereal diseases that he should be found suffering from syphilis?

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:33 AM

"Frankly, at this point, I don't care if he ends up deceased or in prison. He never should have been put in office, the numbers will eventually show the Russian interference in critical states, but he needs to be marched out of the White House, and his lapdog Pence, too. "



Disgraceful!! The President has condemned the violence and bigotry.


Every country has its lunatic fringes, we have Islamic Jihadist supporters who regularly murder Britons. The US has more than its share, but they were there before the last election and cannot be blamed on "the Russians".

Calm down and stop trying to make political capital out of a tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:53 AM

Sorry, ake, you're wrong. Since early in his campaign, Trump has encouraged abusive, hateful conduct - and then he turns around and denies it. He openly cheers for violent bigots, and then he denies what he said.
The man is disgraceful. He needs to go to prison.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:30 AM

" The President has condemned the violence and bigotry."

No he hasn't, he has made vague statements about "all sides". What happened was the result of Nazi's and white supremacist racists marching and the reason Trump doesn't call them out publicly is because he relies on their votes.

Of course, if you're OK with Nazi's saluting and waving their flags and beating up black people then you will find offence in the outcry.

That is disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:27 AM

It is disgraceful to wish for the death of a democratically elected President.

Both president Donal John and Vice President Pense have condemned the Nazi bigotry And have said that they do not want these people.
Regarding the demonstrations, as far as I can gather there was violence from both sides many were injured on both sides and one death occurred due to the actions of one mad man.
The deaths of the two police officers was apparently the result of a helicopter accident.

Stop winding up the situation, this was a relatively minor incident compared to some of the racially motivated riots we have had in the UK.
Calm down, you accuse the president of encouraging violence when you propose the self same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:28 AM

Just goes to show what a load of complete wankers many usaians are!!!

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:41 AM

As I understand it Trump condemned violence on "many sides" and it was a later spokesperson who 'clarified' this into all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:48 AM

What I don't understand is why the Racist organisations have not been made illegal long ago. Clinton and Obama could surely have done this as they had decades in power and huge majorities.

I hold no brief for Fascism or Racism but in a democratic country, while these organisations are LEGAL they cannot be refused the right to demonstrate. If they are then physically attacked and respond to that attack, blame must lie on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:03 AM

My answer, ake, would be that in our countries we don't make societies illegal because we dislike or disagree with them or find them distasteful. We even tolerate a limited degree of illegality because there are idiots in any group and they don't necessarily represent the whole. When, on the other hand the level of illegal behavour appears to be such that the group is promoting it, then we consider banning it.

Hence that Clinton or Obama didnt ban these groups is not important. What matters is whether today the groups are encouraging law breaking.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:36 AM

At least Donal Jerk has made the KKK happy. Perhaps with another appointment to the high court he'll be able to bring back Jim Crow, that'll play well in Trumpsylvania.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:41 AM

I am bleak about Nazis. If I were MLK or Mandela my rhetoric would soar with messages of love and non threatening friendship but indeed I am I not. Instead I am more blonde and blue eyed than the master 'disgrace' of David Duke or Donald Trump. Nazis killed half of my family. I have devoted years to understand how holocausts evolve.

Everyone learns at their own rate. To not believe a word I say is fine as long as you see more clearly for yourself.
Even those who parse and edit words from Trump disgust me as much as his base or the silent. There are days tolerance is hanging by a thread.

I need to contain outrage so violence is not exaggerated by Nazis but I will not be silent or an apologist.

I celebrate the enlightened opinions of most of the lovely people here. This week the low point is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:42 AM

I understand that "D" but organisations like the Klan are surely beyond the pale?   We have laws regarding the promotion of racism anti Semitism or colour prejudice.

No organisation which promoted colour prejudice or Anti Semitism as its main platform would be allowed to stand in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:47 AM

BTW.....Donal John is president Trump's given name, by his Scottish mother.....I suppose Donal Ian would be more correct from a Scottish viewpoint, but either are preferable to the disgusting names made up by some of the inhabitants of this forum.
An insult to the Office I would think?

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:52 AM

If you're calling Donal Jerk an insult to the office then, for once, we are in complete agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:05 AM

His given name is DONALD JOHN, not Donal, not Ian. Those are the names given to his by his parents.

You complain about names he is given on this site but you persist in your rudeness by not to calling him his given name, his Mother's grandfather was also named Donald.

Dual standards would seem to apply where you are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:10 AM

Perhaps the Democrats need a little more self-examination to ask why they chose such a useless candidate?

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:35 AM

Interesting sidelight- If illustrious, hate-filled shrew Ann Coulter had her way none of the Trumps would be allowed to vote due to Twit's Scottish mother and his German (Swedish, according to the family) grandfather .

USA Today

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:38 AM

As long as Democrats are terrible with politics, political messaging and branding, Republicans will continue to win elections. The think tank shaping of lies by the Republicans and using loopholes in the system and election rights have given Republicans every success and branch of government.

All my life I have heard the murmur of "the south shall rise".
If Democrats smarten up, this time will be the racists last best hope.

The bright spotlight on the Governor of Virginia has shown him to be an honorable man unlike trump.

What I am learning is that my strident words close ears. As in the greatest folk songs, the message that the courage of the individual is what is great and is what changes the future world.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:46 AM

"I hold no brief for Fascism or Racism but in a democratic country, while these organisations are LEGAL they cannot be refused the right to demonstrate."

This sort of defence amounts to little more than a tacit acceptance of Nazism. It means forgetting and being complicit in allowing people to celebrate THIS.

Give the facts of the past (something everyone seems eager to forget when discussing current events), it is dumfounding that ANYONE would not specifically comment on the presence of Nazis marching on the streets. The symbolism alone is deeply offensive and the fact the organisers of the rally decided to hold it in the south where there is a long and brutal history of this type of organisation makes it even more so.

Do you know why they chose Charlottesville? Look it up. The rally was designed to intimidate, frighten, provoke and offend immigrants, black people, LBGT and Jewish people. If Golden Showers Don doesn't have the integrity to condemn this outright he deserves the contempt heaped upon him; he is a diminished human being. It was a Nazi that killed a protester and Nazis beat up back people.

He has six million reasons to condemn this rally. So does everyone else, and if you don't come out and say it, you're complicit.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM

"It is disgraceful to wish for the death of a democratically elected President."
You had no problem when Ann Coulter proposed the poisoning of a "liberal" judge, in fact you seemed to regard it as good journalism
Bet she's busy servicing the Klan at present after one of their number drove a truck into a crowd, killing on and seriously injuring a dozen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:02 AM

Dear Democrats,
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Smarten up.
Use fear, use emotion, use lies to highlight the truth.

Victory for the people is blue at sunup.
The Nazi fight is red in claw and tooth

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:07 AM

Stu, you could be a speech writer.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:40 AM

"Its this constant, oh its the white man its the white supremacists. That's the problem. NO IT ISN'T". It is the Muslims.
Dr. Sebastian Gorka Another Trump hire
published in Brietbart News Aug. 9th

Some say Gorka is a Hungarian Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:01 AM

let there be no confusion in trumps own words and tone

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:07 AM

Thanks Donuel. Rare to get a compliment on the Cat ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:58 AM

It is apparently up to the states and governors to delegitimize the Nazis since the Federal Justice Dept. will not lift a finger.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:07 AM

It will be interesting to hear Donal Jerk's further comments on this matter. Will he denounce these Nazis, White Supremacists and Nationalists and risk alienating some of his most fervent supporters.
I expect he'll be walking a very skinny tightrope.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:47 AM

There are lots of Americans who do not know or notice the Nazification.
Not even the mother of the guy who rammed his car Into protesters knew.

There are five States that have laws awaiting approval to make it legal to ram, run over or kill protesters with a car or truck.
North Carolina, North Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Florida.

There are 18 States that Republicans have introduced bills to curb protesting; Washington, Oregon, Iowa, Arizona, Oklahoma, Colorado, North Dakota by 'certain' folks, South Dakota, Virginia, Mississippi, Minnesota, Missouri, North Carolina, Indiana, Michigan, Georgia, Florida, North Carolina...

Protesters will be prosecuted as economic terrorists.

Did you know?

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:56 AM

"There are five States that have laws awaiting approval to make it legal to ram, run over or kill protesters with a car or truck.
North Carolina, North Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Florida."

Don, can you provide a source?

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:56 AM

The news knew:
The Washington Post

I missed South Carolina.

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:00 PM

Just found one from your WaPo link. In-fucking-credible!

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:01 PM

Here

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM

Stu I can't believe you posted that shit.
I made it clear that I detest Fascism and Racism, my post was a conversation with DMcG in which we were discussing the legality of organisations like the Klan.

It was perfectly clear that in no way was I supporting Nazis or White Supremacists tacitly or otherwise.
A really cheap shot, please go back and re-read what was said.

I think organisations like KKK should be banned, but if they are considered legal in the US they must be allowed to demonstrate peacefully, if they were attacked with stones and bottles and responded to that attack both sides are to blame. What President Donal John said was legally correct

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:31 PM

"I made it clear that I detest Fascism and Racism,"
Lip service - right down to forcing refugees to wear yellow star type identification
The KKK have a long (century+) history of violence, intimidation and murder.
Their presence on the streets represents a threat to Black people - it always had and, if Trump is allowed to continue, it will emerge again
So far, Trump has done nothing - and he will continue to do nothing because the Klan and its counterparts represent his basic support - take your own li'l darlin, Ann Coulter . whose veiws are recognised as being akin to the Klan
When Fascism reared its head in Britain, it did so with the support of the police and judiciary
That has to happen in America - the beast has come to life again
Look on protests as an extension of the populaism that put Trump where he is on a minority vote.
Of course you support fascism - you have made that clear from the time you told us we should listen to mass murderer, Anders Breivik had to say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood&soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:51 PM

Will he [Twitler] denounce these Nazis, White Supremacists and Nationalists ...?

No.

The KKK have a long (century+) history of violence, intimidation and murder. Their presence on the streets represents a threat to Black people

And to Jews- they've also always been rabid antisemites. They ain't too fond of Catholics either.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:37 PM

Jim you lie and distort every view which does not move in lockstep with your own
All your accusations against me have been dealt with many times, you either lack comprehension skills or you are a devious liar.

I have over the months and years decided to ignore most of these accusations as you are simply not worth the time taken to refute your continual barrage of charges. You are a menace, a man of limited intelligence and devoid of critical skills or imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:59 PM

There were plenty of anti-Semitic chants by the Nazis in VA I will not repeat.

If all the laws on anti protesting and legal murder of non-violent protesters by motor vehicles are passed, I could stand my ground and shoot protesters (bang) before I drive over their heads (cruncha-boosh) in Florida and 4 other States. But NOT on 5th Avenue NYC.

The KKK and alt right are celebrating that Trump has not denounced them by name.

NAZIFICATION is not a hypothetical anymore. America has not responded until now. Even Protestant Brits may ignore this democratic de-evolution at their own peril.

Greg you were ahead of the crowd with your blatant fascist accusations and warnings.
No one is laughing now except for racist Republican Trolls.

-Hitlers Happen-

While Ake is frightfully uninformed I hold him blameless by his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 02:54 PM

"alt right"
The European alt right took great heart from the populism that first gave us Brexit, then the Trump victory
The first wave were defeated but they haven't gone away, nor will they until Trump is put back in his bottle and the worst excesses of Brexit are coped with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM

Piece of shit KKK Grand Asshole David Duke is upset at Trump:

"I would recommend you take a good look in the mirror & remember it was White Americans who put you in the presidency"

"This represents a turning point for the white people of this country. We are determined to take our country back," Duke said. "We are going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump. That's what believed in. That's why we voted for Donald Trump."

More HERE

HEIL TRUMP!

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:39 PM

This is all a horror show, but Trumps refusal to decry the KKK is becoming a really big wedge between himself and the Republican part. Trumps worst enemy has always been Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:41 PM

OK here is a Jim Carroll style post. Here is where we are in comparison to the Hitler transformation of Germany. The travel ban is a first step compared to Hitler's Nuremberg Laws. Only the names and religions need be changed like; Trump, Muslims, Mexicans and Illegal Aliens.
In comparison we have moved much faster than Hitler:
*******************************************************************

The Nuremberg laws were crucial to the process of dehumanization that the Nazis institutionalized once they took power, and the laws helped set the stage for the organized violence and mass murder that would come later in the regime. While the Nuremberg laws explicitly mentioned Jews, the interpretation of these laws also accused Gypsies and blacks as having "alien blood." And dozens of laws passed by the Nazis targeted other groups deemed undesirable, including communists, homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Accordingly, the policies established by Hitler, supported by the Nazis and followed by most Germans, reveal how rampant discrimination—the use of laws, policies, and practices to treat individuals differently based on their membership in a specific group—became a cornerstone of Hitler's governing strategy.

The majority of Germans reacted to these laws with enthusiasm, or at least passivity. Within Germany explicit resistance to the Nuremberg Laws, and other discriminatory policies instituted by the Nazis, was virtually unheard of. Why was this the case when surely many Germans had Jewish neighbors? In many German towns and cities, Jews and Germans had lived together in relative peace. Germans had Jewish teachers and Jewish doctors. They attended schools with Jews and had served in the military with them. Because of intermarriage, some German families had members who identified as Jews or were now being identified as Jewish by the Nazis. There is no simple answer to the question of why Germans did not resist these unjust laws, including laws aimed at vulnerable groups other than Jews. As described in the previous lesson, obedience is one factor that influenced the behavior of Germans at this time. In Nazi Germany, children, men, and women were rewarded for obeying Nazi policies and faced consequences for refusals to obey. Opportunism is another factor that influenced Germans to follow these laws. While minority groups were being denied basic civil and human rights, many Germans benefited from these discriminatory practices. For example, Germans were given the jobs that were held by Jews and others who were forcibly fired in accordance with the "Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service." Later, Germans claimed property, including homes, paintings, jewelry, and other valuables, that were confiscated from Jews, communists, and other political prisoners. Moreover, the desire to belong (conformity) and the fear of ostracism may have motivated some people to follow laws, even laws that they knew were unjust. In the film The Nazis: A Warning from History—Chaos and Conspiracy, Erna Kranz explains, "When the masses were shouting 'Heil,' what could the individual person do? You went with it. We were the ones who went along." The willingness of many Germans to support Nazi policies, the lack of resistance to discriminatory laws, and the cooperation of institutions, including churches, raise the question of how much the Jews had really been accepted in German society prior to Hitler coming to power.

Did you change the names and words appropriately?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:19 PM

Trumps refusal to decry the KKK is becoming a really big wedge between himself and the Republican party.

Are saying that the Republican gutless wonders in Congress are actually going to call him out on this and actually oppose Twitler??

I can see them doing "tsk, tsk" political posturing but I don't think they'll grow balls and do anything significant.

Time will tell.

But I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Shakey
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:59 PM

It's interesting that a number of you want DT to denounce the (Alt) right wing extremists, yet for twenty years NO western leader has denounced Muslim terrorism which is on another scale. They are always careful not to associate that which the world bloody world can see

Hypocrites.

And yes DT should denounce it, but so should all other terror organisations be denounced - ask Corbyn about that one.

Bloody hypocrites.

Forty years ago Harvey was singing songs about having a son in an age of terrorism, thirty years later he was asking why it was that people he didn't know were trying to kill him.

They ALL need to be denounced.

I'm a freedom fighter you're a terrorist. Bullshit.

Denounce all of them alt-right/KKK/ISIL/IRA or shut the fuck up.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Shakey
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:10 PM

And Jim Carroll, I could eat Alphabetti Spaghetti and shit posts that made more sense

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:15 PM

not only have western leaders denounced Islamic jihad and terrorism they have bombed, assassinated and created coalitions against such terrorism.
Its OK I understand the source and reason for your right wing propaganda. I do not understand why you would bite hook line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Shakey
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:18 PM

You see that's your view, how from my post do you decide that I am
right wing when I want them all denounced.

Bigoted or not too bright, you choose

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:27 PM

Get a grip, Shakey. There's been plenty of denunciation of terrorism. I should ask why you feel like singling out "Muslim terrorism." And why you call it that. Just your careless talk I suppose. The vast majority of us hate all of it, so just bugger off. And yes, we do want Trump to denounce white supremacists. Don't you? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:58 PM

Steve is a chum that has introduced me to new knowledge.
New knowledge would have been a waste if there was no old knowledge to build upon.
We are all respondsible for what and how we learn.
To be precise it was the first sentence of Shakey's post I responded to.

btw I am all the things you can think of to call me.
They say reputation is judged by others but I am beyond the need of all that crap now.

The Nazi march in Seattle has police protection for the Nazis but the counter protesters got a dose of pepper spray an tear gas to keep the "sides" apart. Anti Nazi protesters are on 5t ve outside Trump Tower.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:24 PM

Several of you.... ones I agree with as well as ones I do NOT agree with... have again made the thrust of the thread against each other rather than the issues. No wonder threads keep getting closed.

It solves **NOTHING** to call each other names instead of looking at the issue of hate & bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:40 PM

Well, Bill, "several of you" doesn't cut it. It's a very touchy topic. The last thing we need is a troll. Recognise it when you see it.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:36 PM

Steve... each of your 4 sentences is just ambiguous enough to make me ask for more detail.. am *I* supposed to be a troll? Of course the topic is touchy, but only 'several' have drifted into name calling.... and THAT I recognise when I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:26 PM

Here's David Duke in Syria telling them what a great leader they have and seeking solidarity against them horrible Zionists who run the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:25 AM

Shakey, I have no idea what you are on about. Corbyn has been absolutely consistent about denouncing Islamic terrorism, in particular the recent attacks in the UK. So has Sadiq Khan, a Muslim himself.

Now there are people who used to be associated with terrorism in Northern Ireland, and since the Good Friday agreement politicians on all sides have engaged with them, on the condition that they do not return to their old ways or accept in their ranks people who have not given those ways up. Hence Sinn Fein and the DUP in power in the NI assembly, indeed the latter in coalition in the UK government. I feel uncomfortable about both of those groups, but I don't see any way forward other than to engage.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:21 AM

A nation divided.

Trump didn't create the division, but he is divisive. And it leads to larger chasms. Is and has.

Looking around at UK, France, Austria et al and the divisions are not confined to one enclave. German elections are up next and that will reveal more.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:45 AM

"And Jim Carroll, I could eat Alphabetti Spaghetti and shit posts that made more sense"
Then feel free to point out what you don't understand rather than throwing stones from a safe distance
None as illiterate as those who embrace illiteracy voluntarily
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 06:32 AM

Alt-right = Alt-Reich*




*I can't claim credit for this. Saw it on Twitter.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:10 AM

Still no apology Stu?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:22 AM

A white house official - apparently off his own bat, as just condemned the White Supremacists and The Klan outright, leaving 'im in charge alone in his ivory tower
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:46 AM

You have to wonder at the humanity deficit of someone (ake) who's first impulse in the wake of this tragedy and the resurgence of overt racism in this country, encouraged and exploited by the U.S. president he idolizes, is to defend the rights of Nazis and White Supremacists and Nationalists. This from a guy who constantly rails against the evils of human rights. Hypocrisy incarnate.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:52 AM

Translation of Jim Carroll's post into Americanized English:

An unknown unnamed faceless White House official has admitted responsibility of White Supremacists and the good ol Klan for the violent response in the Charlottesville conflict. The Supreme President Trump has departed his Golf Resort White House to return to his Washington DC office.   
______________________

Today is the day of cringing at all the false equivalencies, spin and excuses for Nazis and the Republicans who bought into the whole racist trump agenda.

The last thing Trump wants is a video of him bad mouthing Nazis, Russians, KKK, White Vanguard, White Brotherhood, Supremacists and good ol boy's never meanin no harm...

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:39 AM

"The last thing Trump wants is a video of him bad mouthing Nazis, Russians, KKK, White Vanguard, White Brotherhood, Supremacists and good ol boy's never meanin no harm..."

Too true, it would make it difficult for him to populate those campaign-
style rallies in Pennsiltucky with the most stalwart of his shrinking base. (except for Russians, of course, they don't seem to share Twit's man crush on Putin.)

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:44 AM

"Still no apology Stu?"

Ah, I missed your post Ake, for which I apologise.


"I think organisations like KKK should be banned, but if they are considered legal in the US they must be allowed to demonstrate peacefully, if they were attacked with stones and bottles and responded to that attack both sides are to blame. What President Donal John said was legally correct"

However, I don't apologise for my post at all, because of this sort of statement, which is mealy-mouthed and evasive. The ongoing defence by some people of the Pussy-Grabber-in-Chief in this matter means approval of his lack of condemnation is implied, as is support for nasty alt-reich posho Farage and the aims of this group of people.

Trump doesn't condemn the nazi's, KKK etc because they're his constituency and he needs their votes. It's reprehensible anyone would support this sort of thing. All he had to do was say it was wrong but he hasn't and that's that.

Trump (parroted by his admirers) makes a false and insidious equivocation between the Nazis and the people protesting their presence; this is a crass and deeply ignorant over-simplification and a lie. Charlotteville was chosen for a reason. The Nazis killed a person over the weekend.

We know what Nazis and the KKK are, we know what they want and we know that their pasts are drenched in the blood of innocents. Failure to condemn is failure to remember and failure to respect the memory of those who suffered at their vile hands.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:52 AM

Totally in character for Twitler. Why is anyone surprised?


"Donald Trump's father, Fred Trump, is widely believed to have had links to, or at least been an enthusiastic supporter of, the Ku Klux Klan. He was arrested at a Klan rally in New York City in 1927.

The first mention of Donald Trump in the New York Times appears to have been in 1973 when, as president of the Trump Management Corporation that controlled thousands of New York City rental apartments , he countersued the federal government after it accused his family's company of racial discrimination.

Despite fighting back fiercely, the Trumps with the aid of notorious attorney Roy Cohn, were eventually obliged to alter their renting policies."

See Woody Guthrie song re: Pappy Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:56 AM

I never went to Sunday school but wasn't there something about Moses getting all pissed off about some nuts worshiping a statue?

Bull or horse, it sounds all the same to me. Not very Judeo Christion in my opinion ;^/

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 10:03 AM

"Translation of Jim Carroll's post into Americanized English:"
Thanks Do - I tend to forget the struggles our cousins across The Pond have with the English language
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:11 AM

shee-it fugetaboutit, itscraycray ta boosta9 froma jacked up 5 oh

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:17 AM

Which, when translated in English, means what, pray tell.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:28 AM

Greg good research.
Normally I would say the sins of the father are not the sins of the son.

except when they are.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:42 AM

raggytash,
"Oh my, its nothing. Its true that its ridiculously dangerous and beyond the pale to remove an injured Policeman's weapon."

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:59 AM

Thank you Donuel, enlightened I think .................

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:53 PM

Eh up, the owd orange gobshite's made a statement. Better late and coerced than never.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:54 PM

At the risk of cracking out of turn or blowing 'blanket'.


I just heard Trump say with a wink part of the Klan Credo chant "our sacred honor" and say the word 'American' in a derrogutory tone of voice when he described the ONE american who died in Charlottesville. While he said the words KKK and Neo Nazi he was able to imply anti protestors as criminals and thugs as well as a few bad apples, and impugn the entire affair as a need for more LAW AND ORDER.

Subtle, Clever, Diabolic. Most people who see or read his words will not see his between the lines Nazi approval on top of a Two day delay with silence before this promised Press Conference of 4 minutes of speech followed by no questions.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:59 PM

Just before the alt-reich apologists start crowing, there's a lot left to answer for that hasn't been forgotten: What are Trump and the White House's links to the far right?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 02:10 PM

With any luck he will have alienated his supporters and his numbers will plummet. Back of the net!

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 02:12 PM

Subtle, Clever, Diabolic.

Obviously written for him to parrott, then.

Question is, by which one of his lunatic acolytes?

Twitler still hasn't abjured David Duke.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 02:19 PM

Stu, Bannon is a mini Nazi compared to Sebastian Gorka (foreign affairs advisor)

The Orchestration of Nazi demonstrations from Coast to Coast on the same weekend is obvious to all. From Charlottesville to Seattle.

Follow the money. Most of the Nazi goons and thugs did not have their own money for travel, lodging, shields, signs, torches, insignia or weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 02:23 PM

Greg, Bannon has been an editor for some time.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:15 PM

Trump kept repeating the phrase 'we are all born equal'. In my heart of hearts I have always felt that none of us are born equal.
Its a lie we are asked to believe in like ""liberty and justice for all"". We grow up and learn it ain't necessarily so.
By uttering this phrase "we are all born equal" we are forced into a suspension of critical thinking mode. There are many phrases that trigger an automaton mode of acceptance, reinforced with repetition, to go into a patriotic trance. As a hypnosis expert this perception may only be my own personal bias but it is a finer point of persuasion.

The real diabolic qualities of Trump's remarks read from giant cards and teleprompters was the tone, tenor and pause of his voice. He is really talented in this respect.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:33 PM

"We must rediscover the bonds of love and LOYALTY."
DJT

To who, YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:28 PM

I wonder if Donal Jerk is still getting his 2 a day propaganda documents now that Priebus and Spicey have been canned. Twit's got to have something to bolster his fragile ego with his approval ratings in the toilet. Stephen Colbert does a good job explaining how propaganda is supposed to work.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 06:05 PM

Merck CEO Kenneth Frazier resigned from Trump's American Manufacturing Council today saying that he was taking a stand against "intolerance and extremism." I'm no fan of Big Pharma but props to this guy for doing the right thing.

Frazier's eloquent statement:

"America's leaders must honor our fundamental views by clearly rejecting expressions of hatred, bigotry and group supremacy, which run counter to the American ideal that all people are created equal. As CEO of Merck and as a matter of personal conscience, I feel a responsibility to take a stand against intolerance and extremism."

Trump's shabby rejoinder, via his favorite medium, Twitter:

"Ken Frazier of Merck Pharma has resigned from President's Manufacturing Council, he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF DRUG PRICES!"

Interesting that Twit responded to Frazier's resignation immediately with a childish barb but took more than 2 days to unequivocally denounce Nazism and Racism.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 06:19 PM

And still I ask: where are the gutless wonder Republicrud politicians speaking out about this outrage??

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:19 PM

nazis outside the white house

nazis inside the white house

This amounts to a clear and present danger, ladies and gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:28 PM

More Virginia Bund marches are scheduled along with Florida but Sept 23rd Nazi marches in Texas are canceled.

Rachel Maddow is following the money of the alt Reich and W.S. tonight.
This time there are no masks or hoods and they have a champion in the White House.

The Civil War we saw coming is more incarnate than ever.

I am inviting any American input. Has this change, changed you or your kids in any way?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 03:40 AM

"You have to wonder at the humanity deficit of someone (ake) who's first impulse in the wake of this tragedy and the resurgence of overt racism in this country, encouraged and exploited by the U.S. president he idolizes, is to defend the rights of Nazis and White Supremacists and Nationalists.".......Gilly, you have joined the ranks of the lying bastards, I stated quite clearly that I think such organisations should be banned.

If YOUR successive governments are unable or unwilling to take such measures, direct your ire at them not me.

While such organisations are LEGAL they cannot by law be stopped from peaceful protest and should be protected from physical attack by members of the public.... as happened at Charlotteville.

I would also remind you that there are organisations on the left who promote violence against the system......watch you people scream if their "rights" are imperilled.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 04:43 AM

"I would also remind you that there are organisations on the left who promote violence against the system."
These demonstrations are aimed at Black poeple, not "the system"
"The system" under Trump supports them and it is the people under threat who oppose them
Any violence here is a direct result of the failure of the forces of'law and order' to do their job
By distorting that fact an hiding behind the law, you are supporting the marches.
This situation is the exact parallel of what happened in Britain in the 1930s - the establishment supported the fascist demonstrations - the people opposed the marches - violence broke out
If the establishment will not defend the people they purport to represent, then the people are duty bound to do it for themselves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 05:20 AM

" and should be protected from physical attack by members of the public.... as happened at Charlotteville"

The NAZIS murdered a woman at that rally. The NAZIS murdered six million. How could you even write this? What utterly odious and foul opinions you hold.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 06:37 AM

Once again, ake, a woman was killed and at least 19 other "liberal" protestors were injured by a white supremacist in a car AND nazis are running around our streets with clubs in riot gear cracking heads, deriding "Niggers" "Kikes" and "Spics", and your takeaway is "we've got to make sure we don't trample the rights of those nazis". Like I said, inhuman, but probably not dissimilar to the reaction of our Embarrassment in Chief who just couldn't unequivocally denounce those racists, who adore him, until forced to do so. This episode has gone a long way to ensuring his legacy as worst POTUS in history.

Twit is however throwing a bone to his white racist constituents, he's considering pardoning America's most famous racist (well, 2nd most famous racist) Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:07 AM

May as well put this up here as well
Trump has backed down and condemned Nazism, the White Supremists and the KKK - who says demonstrations don't work
As far as I understand, he has not associated his comments with the events in Charlotteville
"Racism is evil and those who cause vilolence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, noo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans"
He refuses to describe the truck attack as an act of terrorism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:21 AM

Stu, you have been given ample opportunity to apologise, you have not done so and forthwith you will be considered gutless.
The same applies to you other three!

"Hiding behind the law" it would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.......and you call yourselves liberals and democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:25 AM

I suppose every post from Jim will now include the lie that "Akenaton supports the KKK and colour prejudice". They will fit nicely with his other lies concerning my "Racism", hatred of immigrants, and homophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:17 AM

Meanwhile: Charlottesville: CEOs quit Trump council over response to violence. Even Trump's uber-capitalist peers are deserting him. Comes to something if they're getting the hump.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:25 AM

Careful what you wish for. If Trump goes, there are far more nightmarish figures with a worse agenda queued up behind him.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM

Thanks for the heads-up, bobad, we need stories like that at this moment.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:52 AM

That may be true.

NO OME IS SHOCKED BY FASCIST opinions and plans.
No one. Be honest and remember how many times we have reacted to horrid notions.
It is practically a familiar comfort zone to voice contempt and outrage regarding Nazi agendas.

What I will ask you to do is not comfortable.
I ask you to look inward and share what you are seeing that hate has already changed.

I see Hispanics in fear of deportation not interact with me anymore.
I see neighbors pulling back.
I see children chanting USA USA to kids who are browner than them.


Pause    and tell us what changes you are seeing emerging or missing.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:12 AM

" "Akenaton supports the KKK and colour prejudice"
You put that in quotes - where did it come from
Forcing refugees to wear identification insignia is supporting racism
Describing protesters as "terrorists" is supporting the KKK
Have we ever discussed colour prejudice?
Not in my recollection
Can I suggest that we don't turn this into a two-way slanging match with unsupportable claims of lying
Why not use your valuable time to respond to what I have actually said if it is in such short supply
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:28 AM

"there are far more nightmarish figures with a worse agenda queued up behind him"

I'm ignorant in this subject. Who exactly are you talking about?

Subject: I see changes
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:34 AM

I see Hispanics in fear of deportation not interact with me anymore.
I see neighbors pulling back.
I see children chanting USA USA to kids who are browner than them.


Pause    and tell us what changes you are seeing emerging or missing.

Can you see yourself change?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:52 AM

"...you have not done so and forthwith you will be considered gutless."

This is how Germany sank into Nazism.

A part of the population allowing the evil of fascism to permeate our society by conflating the hatred, murder and intimidation of people making a stand against this abomination of an ideology. Shouting for "Free Speech" instead of shouting down the haters; then only way this can be interpreted is by tacit approval, the type of cowardly complicity with the marchers and their aims by supposedly protecting their right to do what they do. Insult those attacking the evil of the Nazis.

Some things are beyond the pale for decent humans. Nazism is one of these, and it needs to be challenged and eradicated where it crops up. Suggesting the people doing the challenging are the ones behaving egregiously is a fallacy and should be treated with utter contempt; that one of these people was murdered by a Nazi terrorist makes that accusation even more inappropriate.

There is no free speech for Nazis, the KKK and white supremacists and has fuck all to do with free speech. There was no free speech in Lodz ghetto or Buchenwald, not for Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner and none for the young black men hanged from the trees of the Southern US and none for the people murdered in Oklahoma.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 10:09 AM

Stu the gutless are not exactly cowards, The silent are cowards.
The gutless are less than courageous.

It is practically a familiar comfort zone to voice contempt and outrage regarding Nazi agendas.

What I will ask you to do is not comfortable.
I ask you to look inward and share what you are seeing that hate has already changed.

I see Hispanics in fear of deportation not interact with me anymore.
I see neighbors pulling back.
I see children chanting USA USA to kids who are browner than them.


Pause    I am curious as to what changes you are seeing emerging or missing. I think it is even harder to see our own changes.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 10:13 AM

Here's your hero again, Ache:

WASHINGTON, August 14th — President Trump shared on Twitter a cartoon on Tuesday morning of a train running over a person with a CNN logo covering the person's head, three days after a fatal collision in Charlottesville,VA.

Promoting a cartoon of a person being run over by a train appeared to belittle the attack by a driver who ran into a crowd of counterprotesters, leaving a 32-year-old woman dead on Saturday and 19 others injured.

A White House official said early Tuesday that the tweet of the train was posted inadvertently.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 10:23 AM

Here's the cartoon that the Baby/Man retweeted. It didn't take long for the old chickenshit to pull it down. You would think that as "Leader of the Free World" he'd have better things to with his time.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 10:53 AM

"What I will ask you to do is not comfortable.
I ask you to look inward and share what you are seeing that hate has already changed."

Sorry Donuel, I'm being a bit thick. You mean the hate from the Nazis? What has that changed in me or others?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:03 AM

I think what Donuel is driving at is that our responses are conditioned by the world around us to some extent.

If someone perceives, on a regular basis, that a specific group of people are not in some way acceptable, or are "lessor" in some way, that person, unless they are very careful, will in time begin to perceive that group in the same way.

We owe to it ourselves to be constantly on guard against this, because if we succumb we become less.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:04 AM

How much of our opinions are media generated and what are the up close changes in your own personal lives and observations are changed by the Trump effect?

This is a twist on what npr has been asking.


I see Hispanics in fear of deportation not interact with me anymore.
I see neighbors pulling back.
I see children chanting USA USA to kids who are browner than them.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:23 AM

Greg, Gillymore
Your posts are beating CNN to the punch

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:01 PM

The problem with using violence to disrupt a demonstration by people you don't like, will one day end in all demonstrations being proscribed.
It is the job of governments to make organisations like KKK illegal....why has this not been done by Clinton, Obama, or Bush???

Any organisation left or right (the labels a meaningless), who promote violence against those who hold other views should be banned.

If the government determine that such organisations ARE legal then anyone who attacks them with stones or other missiles are committing a serious crime in the eyes of the law.

For the umpteenth time I reiterate that IMO the KKK and other violent racist organisations should be banned......and do not accuse me of supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:23 PM

"The problem with using violence to disrupt a demonstration by people you don't like,"
Love the "you don't like" bit -t does imply they you are quite happy with them
This is not a matter of like or dislike - it was a demonstration against racist thugs with a track record with a century and a half's track record om murder and violence
Pitu those who came out on the streets against the Fascists in Britain
The authorities didn't like ii - ooooh, what a crying shame!!!!!
Still no response as to whether you regard those who fought the Blacksirts as "terrorists" - as I said, silence is golden
"why has this not been done by Clinton, Obama, or Bush???"
Because under them the Klan had become virtually a thing of the part -
Your mate has breathed new life into fascism and his girlfriend, Nursie Coulter is there making sure the blood supply bottles are fully topped up
Demonstrators against fascism should be banned" - dontcha love it??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:45 PM

Lessons in the US first Amendment are needed.

In the US there are 18 State Legislatures that have introduced laws to proscribe demonstrations. Wildly unconstitutional but so is much of the new Republican movement.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 05:27 PM

Twitler approves of Very Fine Nazis:

President Donald Trump lashed out about the criticism of his initial statement about the Charlottesville adding that there were "very fine people" in both the group of white supremacists and white nationalists as well as the counterprotesters.

Shortly after the press conference finished, KKK David Duke tweeted: "Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in Black Lives Matter/Antifascists."

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 05:37 PM

The POTUS doubled down on the side of Nazis today.
No he more like went to the power of 10 down with Nazis.

I see the strategy now. Americans will not recover from this without blood.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 05:55 PM

They [Nazis&Trump] want to burn it all down and have this fight

OR

We can hear from the MORAL voices who have been SILENT

Hello?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 06:04 PM

When the establishment refuses to condemn fascists, what tends to happen is that decent people take things into their own hands. Today, Trump has reverted to his Saturday position. He should take note of what happened in the East End of London in 1936. The establishment tried to defend Mosley's Blackshirts. Ordinary working people, many of whom wouldn't have given Jews the time of day by the way, were not having any of it and they saw off the fascists on the streets. In Barking and Dagenham in 2010, the people came out on to the streets and saw off the BNP, who lost all their council seats and they made Nick Griffin look like the vacuous chump that he truly is. Nice one, Billy Bragg. Trump is being incredibly short-sighted. There are far more people who can't stomach the existence of triumphalist fascism on their local streets than those who support it. Law be damned. Fair play and decency dictates that ordinary people will see off these thugs whatever it takes. Learn from history, Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:37 PM

At this stage smart people who know history may assume other people will do the heavy lifting and they can sit back and watch it all get sorted.

That is the worst block headed, fence sitting, less than courageous thing to do.

Left to their own devices you have seen sick people like Trump do something horrible and stand back and say "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO !"

No, look what you let him do.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:04 PM

Learn from history, Trump.

Twitler is incapapable of learning, period. He is a complete and utter turd, full stop.

God Help AmeriKKKa.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:55 PM

The Nazi strategy has long planned large Trump marches in every major city in the USA this next SATURDAY. They know the media may capture the evil left protesters be violent by defending themselves.


I dreamed of a crazy response. Warning; the following is crazy.
What I would like to see is another Women's march impede Nazis. -no men allowed-

Even if Nazis want to attack, their plans will not be justified by a living soul, including the police or the Nazi girlfriends at home.
Should another innocent women die by the hands or foot of Nazis, it may be the last.


Nazis have long been known as proud women and children killers.
None of this is about statues just in case anyone wants to know.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 03:34 AM

Ake says (way up above): I hold no brief for Fascism or Racism but in a democratic country, while these organisations are LEGAL they cannot be refused the right to demonstrate.
I think that's more-or-less how the U.S. courts have interpreted the First Amendment, so I guess I couldn't argue with Ake on that.

But it was clear to us that the fascist demonstration was intended to provoke violence, and violence happened. And I suppose that some of the violence was committed by people on the left, who should be prosecuted along with right-wingers for their violence.

But it's clear that this event was initiated by the white supremacists, the neo-Nazis, and the Ku Klux Klan. Whether their actions were legal or not, the President of the United States should not hesitate to condemn these hate groups. He failed to do that at first, then gave a clearly reluctant denunciation later, and then more-or-less retracted that denunciation on Tuesday.

My 27-yr-old stepson works as an instructor pilot near our home in one of the most conservative counties of California, and pilots tend to be conservative anyhow. So, the stepson brings home information that it was left-wingers who threw "chemicals" at the right-wing demonstrators. I wonder where that information came from, and if there's any truth in it.

It appears that there was some violence on the part of a small group of left-wing demonstrators, the ones referred to as "antifa." So, maybe we have to admit that Trump was right that "many sides" shared the guilt. That sure doesn't seem right to me, but how do we answer that challenge?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

The election of Trump coming on the heels of the Nationalist nature has given heart to extreme right-wing extremism on a world-wide bais - France, Hungary, Italy
I can think of at least six million reasons for taking to the streets to stop this rise.
Such marches as Charlottesville would have been illegal in Britain, where there are now strong laws to stop the incitement to race hatred - those laws were not won easily - ask people like Blair Peach.
Trump was eventually forced to condemn the Klan and its racist nature - who knows, a few more Charlottesvilles might force him to pass a few good laws
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:30 AM

"Trump was eventually forced to condemn the Klan and its racist nature - who knows, a few more Charlottesvilles might force him to pass a few good laws"

Jim, you must have missed it, yesterday afternoon the racist asshole pissed backwards on his Monday remarks. Here is the press conference, if you can stomach it.

I never thought in my lifetime I'd see a U.S. President stand up before the nation and encourage hate groups.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:49 AM

"We owe to it ourselves to be constantly on guard against this, because if we succumb we become less."

I couldn't agree more. This sort of mindfulness is very important when discussing these matters and confronting those whose opinions differ. However, challenged they must be and they should be challenged without recourse to violence. Which leads us on to...


"That sure doesn't seem right to me, but how do we answer that challenge?"

There are always a small number of idiots out for trouble and they need to be challenged from within the group they claim to represent; informal gatherings and ad hoc groupings need to be very aware of the presence of these people and call them out. Self-policing is vital. Also, non-violence is vital, even in the face of extreme provocation. The atmosphere at Charlottesville was toxic and there were armed alt-right militias at the demonstration; this sort of provocation must be hard to endure as threat is implied by the presence of people in camo gear with guns.

Always peaceful protest.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 05:20 AM

I would never advocate violence but let's get this right. If any more marches of this nature are allowed to go ahead there will be a massive police presence whose job it will be TO DEFEND THE FASCISTS. As someone who has been on a number of demonstrations at which there has been deliberate provocation of the "side" I was on, including provocation by the police, I can relate that it is next to impossible to stop flare-ups, so let's get real, shall we? Trump, the police and the fascists WANT violent protests so that they can accuse the left (under which heading I think I'll include all decent people who do not want to see this scum given free rein on THEIR streets) of violence and deflect criticism away from the people who put Trump in the White House. Remember that the violent reaction of people in the East End in 1936 is now seen, rightly, as heroism in the face of a wrong-headed establishment. History will judge Trump the same way and it won't take long. Jim is spot on. He mentioned Blair Peach, who was my friend. A lovely, non-violent man of slight stature who was clubbed to death by a policeman after taking to the streets to oppose a fascist rally. Part of his legacy is that we now question the right of fascists to hold provocative rallies. My dad's generation didn't fight a bloody war against Hitler only to see triumphalist fascism back on our streets. Sod that. I don't want to hear mealy-mouthed shoulder-shrugging rubbish about fascists having "rights." If they come out on to the streets then so should we, and we don't want to see the establishment looking after them. If nothing else, in the name of public order they should be prevented from demonstrating altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:23 AM

"Jim, you must have missed it,"
Gil
I read the report - missed the full Monty - thanks
I suppose it takes a special skill to turn a fascist march, the killing of a young woman and the injuring of fourteen others into a photo-opportunity

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:24 AM

Good Post Steve
I think this is also relevant GOP? removes Far right from Terror Watch "Rent a Mob " is now an approved organisation?

Id be happy if it was "Fake News"

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:30 AM

I agree Steve (my family fought and suffered in the war, including seeing the final solution first-hand), and I have to say the state seems to be protecting the fascists. Also, if provocation is physical, the it's appropriate to respond accordingly.

The free speech/permit defence is utter rubbish. The Nazis had a permit for Normandy, and we ignored that too.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:02 AM

Stu says: The free speech/permit defence is utter rubbish.

Perhaps, but it appears to be the way the courts interpret the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment. And to a great extent, the Second Amendment allows those Nazis to bear arms.

We haven't found a way to enact legislation to get around those restrictions.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:18 AM

Trump has just repeated his "both sides are to blame" statement so it seems there will be no efforts whatever made to prevent fascist/racist marches.
If the law and the constitution are being used to perpetuate that situation violence is inevitable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:03 AM

I wonder where that information came from,

Infowars & Breibart.

and if there's any truth in it.

Not.


But I doubt that facts will change your stepson's mind, Joe. He's apparently a card-carrying Trumpista.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:08 AM

WW2 antifascist USA film

Latest?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 10:37 AM

Kenny that was how I was educated, but by family.

I have never been more disappointed in a Post by Joe Offer.
I winced a bit at the qualifying word 'maybe' and winced more at the suggestion we should follow Donald Trumps common sense regarding " two sides".

I am not saying Joe supports Trump's White Supremacist base/
I am not saying he too is a racist.
I AM saying that his post demonstrates the lack of a mature moral center.

Governor Kasich is a less than brilliant man but he does have an unequivocal moral center demonstrated by his comment immediately after the rogue moment by Trump.


Regarding chemicals being used by the anti Nazis (not the imagined alt left)

I was able to see three uses of pepper spray, the kind found in a ladies purse

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 10:47 AM

Pepper spray is used for escape not to incapacitate. A true defensive weapon is one that can vanquish a threat. You should look for the identifiable yellow color of pepper spray. The only other chemical was a can of hair spray used to try to burn a Confederate flag by one shirtless individual.

So yes chemical claims are technically true.

Watch Vice news interview of the torch carrying racists.

Some mention of the fatality involved in the clash, was lost by some.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:19 AM

Kenny B does this mean that the KKK will no longer be subject to surveillance by the FBI?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:43 AM

"We haven't found a way to enact legislation to get around those restrictions."

Does the constitution really allow armed Nazi's to roam the streets of the US? Does it allow them to say anything they want? Does it allow the imagery of white men holding torches to parade through the towns of the US, intimidating their citizens?

We fought a war against these bastards. Your constitution is an albatross around your neck if this is allowed to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:54 AM

Of course, the key is legality, has any US govt had the balls to proscribe racist and colour prejudiced organisations?
If these organisations WERE illegal there would be no need for violence, the law would not permit the demonstrations.

However proscription is a slippery slope, before long the leftist would be squealing as hard left organisations were also banned.
Don't say THEY are all good boys, or even a majority of them are good boys.....they contain many violent psychopaths who hate officers of the law, the rich, and anyone who dares to think conservative thoughts. I have been amongst the during my CP days before I grew up.
Even the soft "liberal" left have developed a frighteningly violent streak, which is pretty obvious from some of the posts in this thread.
i.e. "Hiding behind the law"

In truth the US seems pretty fucked up politically and it was like that long before Donal-John. Perhaps it's good that the dirty covers are coming off at last......isn't it good to talk?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:57 AM

Donuel .... that's the way I read it as a uk citizen

Does the immigration service wear brown shirts? and have powers in every state that the police don't have?
Does the Trump Empire employ G4S for security? as in the N Dakota Pipeline affair

My questions may sound like a soundbite from Rowan and Martins Laugh-in but it could be more serious.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

Stu the answer to your question and concerns can be found on the ACLU site.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:05 PM

I despise Nazis. I also despise legislating speech. It has often seemed like places with laws against saying certain things exist to protect those who aren't considered smart enough to judge for themselves.

Ake, if we had laws against hate speech, you would have been gone ages ago.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:13 PM

Thanks Donuel, I'll look at the website later.

Here in the UK we have hate speech laws that specifically deal with racial hatred; I don't think Nazi's carrying flags would be tolerated, but I'm not sure.

At least The Golden Showered One has made Duke and other Nazi, KKK and white supremacists happy, much to the shock of just about everyone else on the planet with a sense of common decency.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:36 PM

"Ake, if we had laws against hate speech, you would have been gone ages ago. "

OK Jeri, care to give me some examples of my hate speech? Don't bother reprinting any of Jim's lies.

If you are referring to Health figures, they are available to anyone via America's premier health agency CDC.

Is the truth ever hateful? Only to Fascists of all political persuasions.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:36 PM

"If these organisations WERE illegal there would be no need for violence, "
A yrear ago thes organisations were moribund - saying little more than Ukip was saying and nothing like the hate speech the BNP is still legally allowed to peddle in Britain
To ban the Klan then would be similar to banning the flat Earth Society - a meaningless gesture
Trump and his racist aggression has brought these rats scurrying out of their holes - he has had a similar effect in giving succour to the NF in France - LePen was actually photographed at Trump Tower weeks before her defeat.
I have little doubt that anybody attempting to ban the Klan woud me met with your accusations of "liberal fascism"
This level of argument is a smug attempt on your part to exonerate Trump by blaming past administrations - not unlike your claim that Hilary would plunge us into war - where are we under Trump on the brink of a war
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:44 PM

Ake
Does the phrase of your way to get rid of incomers buying local houses during your Scottish independence referendum
ie "whapping the heids aff thisles " ring any bells

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:58 PM

No but it does sound interesting could you point me in the direction of that post?

It has a ring of Burns about it ...."Tae snede therr heids lik taps o' thristles". Can't remember the poem right now, i'll have to have a quick rummage through my Kilmarnock edition... :0)

Found it..."Address to the Haggis"......comedy/philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:12 PM

Twit's getting a shit storm of abuse today for his untethered racism but at least he's getting some love from some quarters.

Vox

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:19 PM

Reuters and 2 more sources confirm Trump wants domestic hate groups removed from the DOJ watch list. He wants the list limited to Islamic groups only.

ICE wears black T shirts and black raid uniforms with bullet proof vests. Most of them just wear street clothes and big guns

With more members than the KKK etc are gun clubs with conservation agendas.
They have different names but one claims 1.5 million members.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:19 PM

Is the truth ever hateful?

It is to Trump, definately.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:28 PM

3 percenters militia supported by republicans
off the watch list?
/multnomah-county-republicans-formally-allow-militia-groups-to-run security

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:35 PM

Swastikas are only illegal in France Austria and Germany

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:38 PM

2"whapping the heids aff thisles " ring any bells"
Dinna tak the piss - did ye nae knaw that of the lang term active Klansmen are from emigre Scots
Look out for the documentary,The Klan and the Clans, if t's ever repeated
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:41 PM

HOOTS MON
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 02:07 PM

I will kill...

MOST OF THESE GROUPS ESPOUSE HATE


I will not obey

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 02:10 PM

The coming insurrection will have no battlefields

It will look like terrorism

be brave

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 02:16 PM

Jim Carroll says: A yrear ago thes organisations were moribund

I wish that were so, Jim. The alt-right movement has grown steadily through most of the last decade, with the growth of racial hatred against Obama and the provocative speech of FoxNews and the NRA (National Rifle Association). I guess one could blame Obama for giving new life to right-wing extremism.

And I suppose the change in court interpretation of the First Amendment had roots that were similarly contrarian, and may be due in large part to the American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU was founded in 1920 to protect the rights of people the government considered to be subversive. It was the ACLU that defended the rights of many on the Left who were affected during the McCarthy era. As time went on, the body of First Amendment court decisions led to the fairly rigid protection of free speech that we have in the U.S. now - and that absolute protection of free speech has become part of American thinking. It's something that Europeans often fail to understand, I think. I think it stems from an age where repression of speech was commonplace in the U.S., despite our First Amendments.

The Executive Director of the ACLU has an interesting article (click) about the organization's position regarding the recent occurrances in Charlottesville.

Note that while the ACLU promotes free speech, it deplores violence. When our free speech results in violence, we've lost. It's my impression that there is an underlying threat of violence in all that the alt-right says and does. I would like to think that is not the case with the Left, but I think we have to admit that sometimes we have failed, and some of those on our fringe have used demonstrations as an opportunity for violence. Nonviolence was a primary aspect of the campaigns of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and he worked hard to maintain the discipline of nonviolence. Even then, there often were accusations from the Right about violence on the part of civil rights demonstrators. After the death of King, the civil rights movement lost its discipline of nonviolence. It really bothered me that the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) turned so strongly toward a violent approach to supporting civil rights and opposing the Vietnam War.

And while I think our recent campaigns opposing Trump have been largely nonviolent, I think we have to admit that there have been a few incidents of violence on the part of people who are supposed to be on "our side" - and that has such a strongly negative effect on our credibility that I sometimes wonder if those incidents were actually caused by right-wingers wanting to make us look bad.

And it really bothers me to think that so many Americans believe Black Lives Matter to be a terrorist organization. I think it is of utmost importance to us to renew our committment to the discipline of nonviolence.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:09 PM

I guess one could blame Obama for giving new life to right-wing extremism.

Joe, have you lost your goddamn mind? If you seriously mean that you're a very sick man.

Be that as it may:

"As the country gapes at President Donald Trump's rhetorical reversals on the deadly white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, "The Daily Show" has figured out where he really stands.

"Today is the day Donald Trump became president of the Confederacy," the show wrote on its social media pages."

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:19 PM

Greg Joe is correct. The mere fact that Obama existed irked racists no end. Gun sales, white reactionary group memberships and ammo sales were never higher.

Also right is the fact that the ACLU saved the bacon of many professors during the McCarthy era, my dad being one.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:40 PM

Joe, By whatever fates of the gods the Congressman shot by the liberal was in his private life a very active white racist. Steve Scalise's personality is a rambunctious Napoleanesque figure with a gentleman's racist agenda. By that I mean he is a short mean bully of a man who has lots of mileage networking folks with his shared hatreds.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 04:51 PM

A Good thoughtful post Joe.

"It's my impression that there is an underlying threat of violence in all that the alt-right says and does. I would like to think that is not the case with the Left, but I think we have to admit that sometimes we have failed, and some of those on our fringe have used demonstrations as an opportunity for violence.

Not just on the fringe I'm afraid.....this forum contains well educated intelligent people mainly of a pretty advanced age.
One would expect circumspect comment here, but there has been expressions of hope for the death of the President, several supporters of terrorism to achieve political change, abuse of anyone who dares to reason against violence by branding them as traitors to the "liberal" cause.   Even Don exhorting us to be brave and go into battle.

You live in a deeply divided country, and it was so long before this presidency, the two wings of the government bird tried to obscure the truth, in fact they used it unashamedly to divide the people and gain political advantage.
If the debate is brought out into the open there is a chance of the unity which is required to avoid violence and civil unrest

Our political parties play the same game but it is becoming redundant, we do not have your history the hatred is not so bitter....we have to all intents and purposes become politically and socially colour blind. Our arguments over immigration have nothing to do with race, only numbers and regulation.

With a little understanding of alternative views the same can happen in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 05:05 PM

" but I think we have to admit that sometimes we have failed,"
You apppear to be clinging to the myth that you are "of the left" having claimed that "you don't have to be of the left to be a socialist
You really are a mixed up cookie
Your views are the most extremist right wing on this forum - and anywhere else, in my expreience
Very few people go on demonstrations to cause violence some of the Anarchist groups did at one time
To demonstrate is to invite violence - from police who deliberately set our to instgate it - the Orange marches have been typical of this, where they bottle up protesters in the path of those they have been protesting against.
The largest demonstration I was ever on was the Grosvenor Square anti-Vietnam Way one in 1968, where I (and Peggy Seeger) watched and photographed as 'demonstrators' hurling plackards were later photographed by us in the police barricades keeping the demonstrators at bay - planted agents provocateurs.
It was interesting to watch the fascists marching in Charlottesville - uniformed and ARMED
And Trump has only just got around to condemning the racists.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 05:48 PM

You're right, Jim. I am neither left nor right. I tend to be in the center, but I usually think my own thoughts.
You should try it sometime.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 05:51 PM

Greg Joe is correct. The mere fact that Obama existed irked racists no end.

No, Don, Joe is NOT fucking right. Obama is NOT RESPONSIBLE.

The mere fact that anyone other than white "Christian" males exist irked- and irks- them no end.

As a wise person on this very forum stated some time ago:

"The cockroaches were always there. Trump just turned on the light."

The RESPONSIBILITY rests exclusively with the KKK, the white supremecists, the "alt-right", the anti-semites, the anti-LGBT, the Nazis and the rest of that sort of human scum.


I guess today is the day that you & Joe became co-Vice-Presidcents of the Confederacy.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:05 PM

You want to blame Obama?

These are the scum you should be blaming:

Justin Moore, the grand dragon for the Loyal White Knights of the KKK in Pelham, said he's "sorta glad" a car rammed into a crowd of counterprotesters, killing 32-year-old Heather Heyer.

"I'm sorta glad that them people got hit and I'm glad that girl died," Moore told CBS affiliate WBTV on Tuesday.

Chris Barker, the imperial wizard of the group, agreed with Moore's sentiment. "When a couple of them die, it doesn't bother us," Barker told WBTV.

People who call the Loyal White Knights of the KKK headquarters hear a recorded message praising Fields "Nothing makes us more proud at the KKK than we see white patriots such as James Fields Jr, age 20, taking his car and running over nine communist anti-fascist ... James Fields hail victory," the recording says. "It's men like you that have made the great white race strong and will be strong again."

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:12 PM

Whst would make me laugh, if it wasn't so bloody unfunny, is the idea that these fascist thugs should be protected by some ancient, wooden constitution (put together by racist pro-slave guys, lest we forget) that gives them "the inalienable right to free speech." Joe sez that we on this side of the ocean don't get it. Oh yes we do, only too well. Let me tell you summat, Joe. If any of these thugs, heaven forfend, were to gain power, the very first thing they would do is to ban free speech. General Pinochet didn't allow free speech. General Franco didn't allow free speech. General Batista didn't allow free speech. Fascists' worst enemy is free speech. People who demur in fascist regimes in order to exercise their free speech "disappear" or end up in mass graves or at the bottom of the sea. You are shrugging your shoulders saying that nowt can be done because these people, who would prevent your free speech in a heartbeat, must have their freedom of speech protected. You really couldn't make this up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:43 PM

HOLD YOUR SACK and cough Greg. If asked if Obama was RESPONDSIBLE The answer is indeed no, but reality does present reactions in certain people beyond our control.. like xenophobia, fear, destruction of illusions etc.

I would rather direct outrage where it belongs like Faux news lie network

What's unalienable cannot be taken away or denied. Its most famous use is in the Declaration of Independence, which says people have unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The 1st amendment; Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:02 PM

SHUT YOUR HOLE, Don. Pick up your dictionary, and look up the definition of "blame".

And I am quite familiar with the ACLU, having ben a member for 35+ years - tho I came close to quitting when they defended the Skokie Nazis.

You might also want to ponder the proverbial crowded theater and incitement to violence.

As for outrage I direct where it rightly belongs: at the forementioned human scum and at the piece of shit occupying the White House who encourages, enables, and excuses them.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:29 PM

Jesus! Greg, you're so desperate for a fight you're picking on somebody on YOUR side, and you don't really understand what he's saying.

I really do think that having a black guy for President drove the racists in Congress nuts, and their stonewalling and hatred didn't have as much to do with him being a Democrat as being Black. This shit has been festering under the surface for years, and now that there's a racist in the white house, and a bunch of sycophantic, cowardly Republicans scared shitless to stand against his hate, it's running like wildfire.

But if the Nazi pricks had been forced to be silent and keep their activities secret, how strong and how completely unexpected would their existence be?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:29 PM

I am confident that I will continue to pick my battles and enemies well.

I have no good will for fence sitters, middle of the roaders, agnostic intellectuals and half coward , if you can't beatem joinem, head down citizens without a country.
At least you are not one of those Greg.

If you are not outraged YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION
you're not one of those either.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:41 PM

This coming weekend will determine if the Nazi movement grows its membership like after the Nuremberg choreographed demonstration or end with ashes in their mouth.

Strategic counter planning on short notice is in order.

I suggested another womens march.?!^/

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:52 PM

Yeah, Trump and the rise of these hate groups is the dear price we've had to pay for having had a black president. I was working in the American South during the Obama administration and I honestly did not meet many white, working class males who were happy about his presidency and they oft times expressed their discontent with racial epithets (for which I punished a few of them, I support first amendment rights but you did not use the n-word on my jobs). I think Joe misspoke when he wrote "I guess one could blame Obama for giving new life to right-wing extremism.", at least I hope he did. Obama's only part in it was his blackness.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:29 PM

Jeri, he's not on my side if he's implying that Obama is responsible for Nazi racist scum and their hateful activities- Talk about blaming the victim.

OF COURSE "having a black guy for President drove the racists in Congress [and elsewhere] nuts" but that's down to THEM - not to Obama.

I'm not "desperate for a fight" - I'd just like things called by their correct names.

The "Nazi Pricks" have never been silent and secret - they're PROUD of what they do and eager to advertize it- and if one didn't know that they were out there & what they were up to, one just wasn't paying attention.

I would direct attention to the Southern Poverty Law Center & any number of other organizations that track, and publish, and have done for decades,what the "alt right"/Nazi/white supremacist /antisemitic scum are up to.

Trump and the rise of these hate groups is the dear price we've had to pay for having had a black president

No, Trump and the rise of these hate groups is the dear price we've had to pay , as a country, for allowing these groups {as well as "infowars, Breibart & associated lying asshole organizations} to operate and proliferate - PRE TRUMP- without calling them out for the scum they are and dealing with them instead of pretending they did not exist in a "post-racial Unied States".

Not to say that a large number of gutless wonder Republicruds weren't a good part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:32 PM

No he's not implying that. You don't understand what people are saying, and you're getting furious about the misunderstanding.
Take a break, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:42 PM

Actually one thing Trump said was right. From everything I've seen it wouldn't be fair to call all those people "Neo-Nazis". No need for that "Neo" for a lot of them. They were plain old fashioned Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:58 PM

No, Trump and the rise of these hate groups is the dear price we've had to pay , as a country, for allowing these groups {as well as "infowars, Breibart & associated lying asshole organizations} to operate and proliferate - PRE TRUMP- without calling them out for the scum they are and dealing with them instead of pretending they did not exist in a "post-racial Unied States".

Absolutely spot on, Greg. The whole spirit of the free speech mantra in your country has been usurped by the far right. They get to say whatever they like. Free speech, hate speech, all the same thing. But the very first thing a fascist does when he gets power is to curb free speech. Free speech in a fascist country puts you in jail or makes you disappear, yet you defend the right of your native fascists to exercise their free speech. Now there's a laugh. To me, free speech doesn't mean hate speech. It doesn't mean fearmongering speech or intimidating speech. It doesn't mean bigotry speech. I can't think of anything less free than hate, fearmongering, intimidation and bigotry. But that's what it means to these people. They are taking advantage of your vacillating, politically-correct, indecisive behaviour regarding whatever amendment your fossil ancients came up with when they weren't actually throwing crusts to their slaves. After two hundred years your country is still paralysed. Can't move on. You have the most advanced industry in the world but you're shackled by antiquated and bigoted notions about what freedom really means. You can't see that freedom for black people means freedom from racial discrimination, freedom from hatred, freedom from being regarded as inferior. You'd rather regard freedom as been able to say what the bloody hell you like regardless of the hurt you cause. Well that isn't the kind of freedom you should be aspiring toward or defending, because it isn't freedom at all. So, Joe, kindly don't tell us that we don't get it. It's you who doesn't get it, not us.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:45 PM

You don't understand what people are saying,

I understand very well what they are saying. Joe said "Obama was to BLAME"& etc. Don. said that Joe was right - Obama was to BLAME.

blame
/blām/
verb
    1.assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.
    synonyms: hold responsible, hold accountable, condemn, accuse,            
noun
    1.responsibility for a fault or wrong.

What you're suggesting is I don't understand what they mean.

The English language can be wonderfully expressive and exact - perhaps you should be asking them to state their ideas more clearly rather than giving me a hard time?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:02 PM

Joe said "I guess one could blame Obama..."
So he's saying some people blame Obama, and "I guess one could" equals "I" in your mind.

And Don said (with a blanket [sic] ;) "If asked if Obama was RESPONDSIBLE The answer is indeed no, but reality does present reactions in certain people beyond our control."

My translation of this, just for you, is that Obama isn't responsible, but people will believe what they want to believe.

And this is the last time I'll get hung up explaining English to you.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:10 PM

I just posted a serious statement on Facebook for the first time in my life"

"You had people in that ("alt-right") group who were very fine people...the press has treated them very unfairly" Donald Trump.
Every individual in that group chose to appear in solidarity with Klansmen and avowed Nazis. Nazis and White supremists are praising Trump for this response. God help America. I shed tears to think that some I would like to consider friends will defend Trump's appeasement of these people.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 11:44 PM

Well, gee, I thought I had subjunctivized my statement well enough by saying "I guess one could blame Obama for giving new life to right-wing extremism." But I suppose there's always going to be at least one blood-thirsty idiot around here who's going to jump on anything I have to say. I got attacked one time here for saying that I called Mad Magazine's Alfred E. Neuman (What? Me Worry?) my patron saint, because the attacker apparently thought that having patron saints was an evil religious practice.

I live in a very conservative county in California. I know I'm taking a risk by doing it, but I keep an Obama-Biden bumper sticker on my car to spite my neighbors and fellow parishioners who blame Obama for well-nigh everything they don't like. There are many people in this area who consider an Obama bumper sticker to be good reason for road rage or vandalism. And yes, I do think some of them blame Obama for the upsurge in racism that has taken place in the U.S.

OK, and about that First Amendment. I stated the facts as I understand them. I believe that a series of 20th-century U.S. court decisions moved the country toward a more rigid understanding of freedom of speech, and I think that many of those decisions were in lawsuits filed by the ACLU - most filed for very laudable reasons. And I do believe that Americans in general have a different priority for free speech, than most Europeans have. Notice that I said different, not better or worse. So, that's my understanding of the reality of the concept of freedom of speech in the U.S. and its application.

Please notice that both in this message and above, I expressed only my understanding of the reality, and I did not yet express my opinion of that reality. And yet, I count at least four people who have soundly condemned me, more-or-less for being some sort of violence-promoting Nazi rightwing bigot....and I haven't yet said what my opinion actually is. Silly, aren't they?

So, OK, I guess I'd better state my opinion. I don't keep an out-of-date Obama-Biden sticker on my car because I hate Obama. Of all the Presidents who have held office in my lifetime, he is the one I most admire. He is a wise, balanced, thoughtful man - and a wonderful father and husband and a good person, to boot. And all the hatred that his presidency engendered, caused me great sadness. I found myself in tears a lot during the last week of his presidency, as I watched as many of his farewell speeches as I could find. President Trump might begin to redeem himself in my eyes, if he were to appoint Barack Obama to the Supreme Court (there's that subjunctive again)...

And what do I think about freedom of speech? Well, repression of speech makes me uneasy, whether it be by law or by bullying (as is done so often here at Mudcat). I didn't like it at all when certain people threatened to report Mudcat to some European authority because we "allowed" Ake's homophobic idiocy and the like. That level of control of speech just didn't seem right to me.

But on the other hand, it seems wrong to me for a hate-filled group to be allowed to march across a campus and in front of a synagogue, carrying torches and guns and chanting hateful slogans. I understand the court decisions and I understand the need for freedom of speech - but when that free speech causes fear in the heart of another person, then something's not right.

So, I think that's a question that hasn't been resolved yet. I don't want to see repression of speech, but I also don't want to think people have a right to cause fear in others in the name of free speech.

I suppose it's nice that some of you people think you have all the answers. I don't. I still have lots of questions - and I think that many of your answers are shallow.

Oh, and the other question I haven't been able to answer, is my question about violence committed by those on the Left. Now, although Jim Carroll does not consider me fit to call myself a liberal, my opinions usually seem to fall on that side. I have never voted for a Republican in my life, and I know a lot of Republicans who think I'm a horrible liberal. So, when people on the Left do something wrong, it concerns me. And I think it was wrong for that guy to go shooting Republicans at that baseball park, and for the people in black clothing and masks to commit violence against conservatives. I like to think that liberals believe in tolerance and nonviolence like I do, but maybe I have to admit that may not be so.

So, anyhow, now you have my opinion. You people, go learn about subjunctives, willya? Oh, and do something to learn the difference between reality and opinion, before you choke us all with your moralizing condemnations.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 02:30 AM

What a lot of hatred, and not a white supremacist in sight.
Hatred exists and thrives on division, there is no GOOD reason why organisations like the KKK are allowed to function, but plenty of BAD ones.....the political establishment requires division, one side promoting the free markets and rabid corporatism that it believes in strongly and the other side promoting the egalitarianism and socialism which I knows very well is completely unachievable under the present political system.

Without that hatred engendered by the political establishment, people would work out for themselves what was achievable and necessary to build a fair and workable society.
I agree with most of what you say Joe, other than your charge that I am an idiot and a homophobe.
I oppose homosexual "marriage" and was asked why, I responded by stating that I believe homosexuality to be dangerous and unhealthy and that redefining marriage to accommodate it was wrong.
I then produced the health figures to prove my point.

I have seen nothing on these pages which would make me change that opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 03:36 AM

"Sorry Joe - that was addressed to Ake - certainly not you
He has persistently claimed to be a socalist and sneers at those of us who express genuine socialist views as liberals, but has persisted in expressing views that are to the right of right - on immigration, on the mass murder of young Norwegian people, on homosexuality, on Trump, on.... well everything really.
Outr own, home-grown fascist, as far as I can see
I think you are wrong in blaming Obama too
In order to ban the Klan, they would have had to do something that was bannable - they appear not to have, even now.
It is not illegal to express views on race, nor should it be
In Britain, it has become illegal to incite race hatred publicly
The nearest Britain came to moving on the Klan's counterparts is when the National Front became involved in inciting football violence.
The Front died a death and was replaced by the British Nationalist Party , which began to tailor up its image in order to fight elections - that seems to have died a death too.
The watered down lot, Ukip with only one shot in their magazine keep shooting themselves in the foot, having done the only political damage they are capable of.
All this blaming of former administrations for the Klan is a red-herring
They are now openly on the streets inciting racial violence, Trump has done his best to support them but that is a step too far for even him so he has been forced to condemn them - for the time being and leave it to his media mouthpieces like Ann Coulter.
What is happening now is presenting the only opportunity to quash the Klan
The Klan has featured in a number of security reports on trerrorism in the US and around 2007 were subjected to close scrutiny
Presumably there was not enough evidence to act
Trumpism may well have kicked them into enough activity to make a decent move
Please don't blame fiormer administrations for what is happening now - this is a consequence of electing a raving madman President, nothing more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 05:06 AM

People could not blame Wall Street fraud for losing there home. They blamed the Sheriff or the bank or the government that allowed them to be stripped of everything and rewarded crooks. Radio and internet right wing hate and conspiracy maestros filled a void and were paid by groups with bigger hate agendas.

It took years but the Nazification process gave people the ability to BLAME someone. Larval nazis had a fresh energy. Not everyone was seduced but a hard core group promised fellowship. New Nazis were being made where there once was a devoted American.

Nazis are the walking dead. Nazis are the Zombie apocalypse, they do not feel pain on all the opioids they take, they were once human. You remember how they were brought into compliance last time.

Perhaps we can try a pharmacological solution this time.
Oxytocin not Oxy.


No one else would think like this but try it, you might like it.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 05:21 AM

Nice summing up of the situation in the White Supremist House here from this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

President gives white supremacists major boost
Glenn Thrush & Maggie Haberman

ANALYSIS
Never has a president gone so far in defending their actions
US president Donald Trump buoyed the white nationalist movement on Tuesday as no president has done in generations, when he equated activ¬ists protesting against racism with the neo-Nazis and white supremacists who rampaged in Charlottesville, Virginia, over the weekend.
Never has he gone as far in defending their actions as he did during a wild, street-corner shouting-match of a news conference in the gilded lobby of Tru mp To wer, angrily asserting that so-called alt-left activists were just as responsible for the bloody confronta¬tion as marchers brandishing swastikas, Confederate battle flags, anti-Semitic banners and "Trump/Pence" signs.
"Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth,"
David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader, wrote in a Twitter post shortly after Trump spoke.
Richard Spencer, a white nationalist leader who participated in the weekend's demon¬strations and vowed to flood Charlottesville with similar protests in the coming weeks, was equally encouraged. "Trump's statement was fair and down to earth," Spencer tweeted.
Governor Terry McAuliffe of Virginia, a Democrat, wasted little time in accusing the president of adding to the divisions that put an unwanted spotlight on the normally peaceful college town. "Neo-Na¬zis, Klansmen and white supremacists came to Charlottesville heavily armed, spewing hatred and looking for a fight," McAuliffe said. "One of them murdered a young woman in an act of domestic terrorism, and two of our finest officers were killed in a tragic accident while serving to protect this community. This was not 'both sides'."

UNPRECEDENTED
No word in the Trump lexicon is as tread-worn as "unprece¬dented". But members of the president's staff, stunned and disheartened, said they never expected to hear such a voluble articulation of opinions that the president had long ex¬pressed in private.
National Economic Council chairman Gary Cohn and treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin, who are Jewish, stood by uncomfortably as the president exacerbated a controversy that has once again engulfed a White House in disarray.
"I've condem ned neo-Nazis," Trump told reporters, who interrupted him repeated¬ly when he seemed to equate the actions of protesters on each side. He spoke of "very fine people on both sides". And of the demonstrators who
No sooner had he delivered the Monday statement than he began railing privately to his staff about the press rallied on Friday night, some chanting racist and anti-Semitic slogans, he said: "You had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest."
Since the 1960s, Republican politicians have made muscular appeals to white voters, especially those in the south, on broad cultural grounds. But as a rule, they have taken a hard line on the party's racist, nativist and anti-Semitic fringe. Ronald Reagan, George H W Bush and George W Bush roundly condemned white supremacists. The Bushes did so again yesterday.
In 1991, the first President Bush took on Duke, who was then seeking the governor's seat in Louisiana, saying: "When someone has so recently endorsed Nazism, it is inconceivable that someone can reasonably aspire to a leadership role in a free society."
But Trump, who has repeatedly said he is not prejudiced, has been equivocal in his public or private statements against white nationalists and other racist organisations.
On Saturday, in his first comments on Charlottesville, Trump blamed the violence on protesters from "many sides". After a storm of criticism over his remarks, Trump's aides persuaded him to moderate his message by assigning explicit blame for the violence on far-right agitators, which led to a stronger denunciation of hate groups, emailed to reporters and attributed to an unnamed "spokesperson".
When that failed to quell the controversy, aides, including Trump's new chief of staff, John Kelly, pressed him to make another public state¬ment. Trump's daughter Ivanka and son-in-law Jared Kushner urged him to take a more moderate stance, according to two people familiar with the situation. But as with so many other critical moments in Trump's presidency, the two were on holidays in Vermont.
Grudgingly, Trump agreed. "Racism is evil," the president said on Monday, delivering a statement from the White House that was written with aides. "Those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, white supremacists and other hate groups," he added, in response to biparti¬san condemnation of his more equivocal statements during the first 48 hours of the crisis.
UNIFYING TONE
But his unifying tone, which his staff characterised as more traditionally presidential, quickly gave way to a more familiar Trump approach. No sooner had he delivered the Monday statement than he began railing privately to his staff about the press. He fumed to aides about how unfairly he was being treated, and ex¬pressed sympathy with non-vio¬lent protesters who he said were defending their "heritage", according to a West Wing official.
He felt he had already given too much ground to his opponents, the official said. Trump prides himself on an unapologetic style he learned from his father Fred Trump, a New York housing developer, and Roy Cohn, a combative lawyer who served as an aide to Senator Joseph McCarthy in the 1950s. During the 2016 presidential campaign, Trump attracted a significant following of white supremacists, expressed
sympathy with white southerners fighting to preserve monuments for Confederate icons and was slow to distance himself from racists like Duke.
The president's fury grew on Monday as members of a White House business council began to resign to protest his reaction to Charlottesville. As usual, Trump found his voice by tweeting angrily about the media. By Tuesday afternoon, Trump's staff sensed the culmination of a familiar cycle: the president was about to revert to his initial, more defiant stance.
As Trump approached the microphone in the lobby of Trump Tower on Tuesday, aides winced at the prospect of an unmediated president. With good reason.
Eric Cantor, a former Republican congressman from Virginia who was a member of GOP leadership, was horrified by what took place in Charlottesville, and said the presi¬dent needed to have spoken out earlier.
"It really did demand a statement at the very begin¬ning," said Cantor, who is Jewish. He added that efforts by the president to equate the actions of the counter-protest¬ers, however violent they may have been, with the neo-Nazis and the driver ofthecarwho killed Heather Heyer were "unacceptable".
"There's no moral equiva¬lence," Cantor said. - (New York Times service)

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 05:24 AM

Can't believe that even Ake would dream of turning this into yet another of his homophobic tirades
Memo- do not underestimate fanaticism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 05:39 AM

Once you know what Oxytocin can do you will be ....... amazed !!

We will need about 62 tons of it, a diverse crowd and locked convention centers or domed arenas coast to coast.

Do not get seduced by the typical techniques to "cure" Zombies.

We should throw Trump into the diversity arena first.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 06:09 AM

Or the goodness of America and the dream of equality, despite the wealth distribution to the to 1%, will heal and insulate us from Nazism;

If the gooness of American Nazis and the dream of racism takes over, the Republican party will be the treason party in historic textbooks.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 06:15 AM

Heather Heyer's mother, Susan Bro, eulogizing her daughter at Heather's memorial service yesterday. Where this woman got the strength, in light of her recent tragic loss, to speak so eloquently and powerfully is beyond me. It makes me think we might come through this okay if we pull together against all this hate. Of course, having a racist and his racist minions in the White House (or in the Golf Club) is going to make it even more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 06:33 AM

The eulogy was the most profound honest loving expression I have seen.


Hey gilly, what do you think of my idea of humanely gassing Nazis with oxytocin? It is the most ironic thing I can imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 06:56 AM

The idea of gassing Nazis as a humane cure came to me like a complete Albert Brooks comedy movie. Gotta have Rip Torn as a Nazi leader that is cured. This screenplay is extremely funny against the backdrop of Nazi hate. Kinda reminds me of the movie 'Defending your Life' against the backdrop of death.

Lots of how and why hijinks getting Nazis covertly into the arenas.

Iconic humor is the weapon I choose. :^)

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 06:56 AM

I'm skeptical, Don. It might stimulate the urge to procreate in those Nazis. We're overstocked already.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 07:33 AM

Well, gee, I thought I had subjunctivized my statement well enough by saying "I guess one could blame Obama for giving new life to right-wing extremism."

On this side of the pond your statement implies strongly that you are according at least some legitimacy to that view. That you are not dismissing it out of hand. Don't blame us for scratching our heads wondering whether you actually believe that it could be true. That's how it looks. Nations divided by a common lingo, eh? There's nothing in the rest of your lengthy post containing the statement to counteract it. I know you don't blame Obama. But you didn't say it until you were challenged, did you? It isn't bloodthirsty idiots, Joe. It's legitimate efforts to encourage you to clarify what appeared to be puzzling indecision on your part.


But on the other hand, it seems wrong to me for a hate-filled group to be allowed to march across a campus and in front of a synagogue, carrying torches and guns and chanting hateful slogans. I understand the court decisions and I understand the need for freedom of speech - but when that free speech causes fear in the heart of another person, then something's not right.

So, I think that's a question that hasn't been resolved yet. I don't want to see repression of speech, but I also don't want to think people have a right to cause fear in others in the name of free speech.

You are saying the same thing as me. All freedom has boundaries, otherwise it negates someoone else's freedoms and disappears up its own backside (I'm not as sophisticated as some philosophers, sorry). I'm free to grow a crop on my field. But if I douse the field with every known legal biocide in order to achieve it, resulting in pollution of rivers, the deaths of millions of fish and the poisoning of drinking water downstream, I'd be negating the freedom of those fish to live and the freedom of the people to trust to the safety of their drinking water. I have to rein myself in at the point (which may be difficult to define precisely) at which I get a reasonable, if slightly smaller, crop. I get to make a living from my farm (though a slightly more modest one), the fish continue to thrive and your coffee won't be poison. The maximum available amount of freedom has been fairly shared out. That's how real freedom is exercised. Recognising limits. When it comes to speech, if you say something to deliberately make someone feel insecure, or frightened, or intimidated, or if you're trying to whip up hatred directed at a group of people, or if you are publicly trying to persuade people to exercise violence against other people, you've crossed the red line in my book. A remark may be undeliberate or clumsily expressed. It may have been made from ignorance. There are people who will pounce when that happens and it's all to the good. But agenda-driven hate speech is usually easy to identify. I think that, by employing it, you are trampling all over others' freedom to feel safe, secure and a worthwhile part of society. Ironically, you may end up strangling your own freedom while you're at it. Having the right to free speech never meant having the right to say what the hell you like.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 08:29 AM

On this side of the pond your statement implies strongly...

Not just in Blighty, Steve, whatever Jeri & Joe may contend about my inability to understand English.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 08:52 AM

The news service AP will no longer use the term 'alt right'.

Nor will I.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 09:09 AM

gillymore
That's great! When cured Nazis marry Asians, Blacks and brown Immigrants, procreate away. It will be fun to see who the most staunch and borderline Nazis in Act 1 end up with in the end.

Oxytocin makes people trust one another and form close bonds.
It is a hormone derived from infants and mothers soon after childbirth. It causes trust even in the most suspicious circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 09:26 AM

I followed Donuel's link to the ACLU page and found it very informative. My main takeaway from what I read is that any interpretation of the constitution is a major issue when it comes to implementing laws and is open to bias.

What Joe said about Obama was spot on. I agree with Joe and Steve about the boundaries, but then we're not the ones interpreting the law.



"that I am an idiot and a homophobe."

You might want to pause and reflect a while on why folk think that.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 09:55 AM

Mr. Woody Allen thank you so much for seeing me, it is an honor.

Well I heard your unusual screenplay has potential.

Honestly that's a first, When Steven Spielberg heard it was about gassing people in large chambers he wouldn't see me and when Quenton Tarantino heard it was about gassing Nazis but they became nice he canceled and when Ridley Scott was told the emergent Nazis did not eat people he never called back.

What is it that the Nazis do exactly.

After they are gassed with Oxytocin they marry Asians, blacks and minorities...by the way it is a Jew who gasses the Nazis.

Your movie is greenlighted!

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:12 AM

There's a glitch in your storyline. The aversion that "Asians, blacks and minorities" will no doubt feel toward having their gene pool polluted by those racist bastards will probably negate the amorous effects of Oxyctin.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:18 AM

You keep thinking that Nazism is genetic. It is a mind set, an indoctrination and aberration of thought. Really that is a central message. Instead of stopping that thought process with a bullet to the brain there are better ways to change their mind.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:21 AM

Oh, we're being serious? {tiptoeing out the door]

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:32 AM

Actually, Don, it sounds like a pretty clever story and might make an interesting futuristic utopian film or novel, or both. Now leaving for real.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM

Instead of a comedy I already wrote a drama about a Jewish GI clerk at the end of WWII that does his own paperwork to adopt a blonde baby from a Liebensborn mega orphanage in Schimmel Germany. The infant storm trooper becomes a guy like me.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM

When I was a kid my neighbor was Rod Serling. Vignettes became a hobby.
None of them are fleshed out into novels. Since I can't read for pleasure or turn the mind off its all stories and cartoons in my head.
Its just that they are rarely any good.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:47 AM

One more note, in my post of 10:12 I was indulging in a bit of irony myself, the original Nazis were obsessed with racial purity, why not turn the tables on the latter day ones? Now, gone.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:51 AM

Ill leave it here but that is kinda the main point of the comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 11:47 AM

"You might want to pause and reflect a while on why folk think that."

Oh I know very well why they say that, I don't believe they allow thought into the process. They say it because they have no rational response to the figures, that wont bring their ideology crashing down around them.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 12:20 PM

"I don't believe they allow thought into the process."
The world's mad, except me!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 12:29 PM

Ake, you are a worry mate.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 12:30 PM

It is easier to apply a label than argue a case.
Just name calling.
It means they have no reply.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 03:09 PM

And your post adds exactly what professor.

Many people consider Donald Trump to be a disaster waiting to happen.

I hope I am wrong in saying this, but I think it only a matter of time before a major violent issue arises with his presidency, that issue may involve many nations, including our own.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 03:29 PM

Trump tweets how mass murder is a good thing
General Pershing story

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 04:44 PM

?Many people consider Donald Trump to be a disaster waiting to happen.

No, he's very much a disaster that HAS happened.

And its only going to get worse.

HEIL TRUMP!!

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 08:30 PM

This week hasn't been a complete disaster for Twit. He made the cover of The New Yorker.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:45 AM

I think that Arnold Schwarzenegger, a Republican, gave an excellent response to Trump. Take a look at his video.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 03:48 AM

I got this email today from moveon.org. I have to confess that I have enjoyed seeing Confederate monuments on Civil War battlefields and in southern cities. To my mind, there's something good about honoring those who were on the losing side. But on the other side, history shows that many of these monuments were erected in the early 20th century, long after the Civil War; and it does seem that many of them were erected to create a myth of a noble Confederacy - an effort to promote white supremacy, perhaps? So, I dunno. Where do we draw the line on this? Will it be a good thing to "remove every Confederate symbol in America," as the petition demands?
I don't know the answer to that.
-Joe-

Here's the email:

Breaking: Just this morning, Donald Trump doubled down on his embrace of white supremacy, saying it's "foolish" and "sad" that cities are removing Confederate statues in the aftermath of the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia. Calling these symbols of white supremacy "beautiful statues," he claimed that our culture is being "ripped apart."

Click here to sign the petition: Demand that our elected leaders remove every Confederate symbol in America.

We must take down the symbols of the Confederacy from any place of honor. Confederate statues must be rightfully recognized as a symbol of white supremacy and its current political power. White supremacist terrorists in Charlottesville were willing to kill in the name of these symbols. Take 'em ALL down!
Sign Rashad's petition

Dear MoveOn member,

Now is the time to intensify the pressure to remove confederate statues across America.

Baltimore, Maryland, and Los Angeles, California, have already removed monuments to the Confederacy. The mayor of Lexington, Kentucky, announced that his city would remove two statues. And New Jersey's Senator Cory Booker is introducing a measure to remove Confederate statues from the U.S. Capitol.

But we can't be satisfied until all of these symbols are removed all across the country. Our campaign is gaining momentum and this is a critical moment to push for action against these monuments to white supremacy.

Will you add your name to our petition to demand that our elected leaders take 'em ALL down?

Last weekend, in Charlottesville, a white supremacist rammed a car into a group of peaceful protesters and killed one person. The night before, white nationalists marched through Charlottesville communities and the University of Virginia campus, rallying around a statue of the Confederacy and carrying torches evoking a history of violent racial terrorism. Emboldened by Trump, white supremacists are now acting to intimidate us from removing symbols of white supremacy.

But we won't stop working to remove every single Confederate symbol in America. And as each news cycle demonstrates, the movement to remove these symbols is gaining energy with elected officials and grassroots activists around the country!

Will you sign and share the petition to take 'em ALL down? Click here to join the campaign to remove every Confederate symbol in America.

Since Dylann Roof massacred churchgoers at Mother Emanuel AME, we have been organizing around the nation to remove symbols of the Confederacy from any place of honor in America. In response, white supremacists are rallying around Confederate statues and using them as a pretext to commit domestic terrorism and murder.

We cannot allow these white supremacist terrorists to intimidate us from confronting and working to dismantle systemic white supremacy.

Click here to add your name to this petition, and then pass it along to your friends.

We must work to end the influence of today's white supremacists. Removing all Confederate statues would be the first step in sending the message that we are no longer honoring white supremacy at a societal level. We've already seen progress in Tampa, Florida, and New Orleans, Louisiana, where Confederate symbols are being removed by Black-led organizing in the face of sustained white supremacist opposition.

Sign the petition and tell elected officials: It's time to remove all Confederate statues in America.

Thanks.

—Rashad Robinson, Color of Change

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:00 AM

It would seem to me, that the cause of the skirmish at Charlottesville was indeed over the removal of the statues of Civil War "heros". Apparently the civil war was not fought simply to outlaw slavery, but for other political reasons.
Lincoln himself said that he was not in favour of the repeal and many of the founders of the country were massive slave owners.

All over Scotland we have monuments to people like William Wallace , Clan chiefs and generals who were considered terrorists by the UK government, but national heros by at least half of the Scottish people.
Can you imagine the uproar and civil violence which would be caused by the attempted removal of these monuments?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:10 AM

I was also amazed and disgusted by film of American citizens rushing to wipe their feet on and kick the monuments which have already been removed.

These monuments are also a memorial to the huge number of ordinary Americans who fought for "The South"
We do not blame the ordinary German soldiers for the excesses of Mr Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:47 AM

"We do not blame the ordinary German soldiers for the excesses of Mr Hitler"

Nor will you find any monuments to him.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:49 AM

Well said, Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 05:06 AM

I saw video of a memorial to ordinary soldiers being torn down.
They were not slave owners. Often barefoot, they fought to defend their states from invasion and won some remarkable victories against superior forces.
I think they deserve a memorial. Should their cemeteries be desecrated too?

There are monuments to German soldiers in Germany.
Why not to Southern soldiers in their home states?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 05:29 AM

Ancient Egypt ran into problems with their statues of deposed and vilified leaders. They often toppled or vandalized statues for example of Akhenaton.

I pity the fool who thinks a backlash by racists has anything to do with statues.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 05:44 AM

Put the statues in a museum dedicated to slavery. That way, we don't have to look at them if we don't want to. I'd extend that general notion of hiding statues of obnoxious people to any statues of Churchill, Thatcher and Dr Livingstone that happen to be around. My list is by no means exclusive. The statues are worse than pornography. I once endured a whole evening in a Conservative club in Manchester (a family gathering to which I was obliged to go, I hasten to add), surrounded by huge framed photographs of Thatcher, Churchill and Her Majesty. Mind you, the beer was cheap, which was just as well seeing that I had to drink faster than usual in order to deaden the pain.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 06:26 AM

Do the American people really equate Gen Robert E Lee with Hitler?
Shurley, shome mishtake???

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 06:47 AM

I thought this was worth reading, it appears to be from a respected writer on the Civil War.


Linclon and Lee.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 07:21 AM

"About the author: Joe Ryan is a Los Angeles trial lawyer who has traveled the route of the Army of Northern Virginia, from Richmond to Gettysburg several times"

How does this translate to "it appears to be from a respected writer on the Civil War"

It's not only our American cousins who speak a different language.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 07:30 AM

Donal Jerk has put down the dog whistle and picked up a megaphone.

The Economist

Any one who truly wishes to understand the primary cause of our Civil War (the preservation of vs. the abolition of slavery) needs to go back at least as far as the invention of the cotton gin which made slavery profitable again.

Also, the "Southern Heritage" monument enthusiasts around here should be aware that many of these statues that are being torn down and are soon to be torn down were erected in the 1960's as a big middle finger to the Civil Rights Movement, very much like the one the organizers of the Charlottesville demonstration (right wing hate groups, look it up) flipped at non-whites everywhere. Any one who thinks that this is about "our beautiful history" has swallowed the racist bait, hook, line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 07:32 AM

AKE WHAT DOES THE HIGH HOLY DAY OF SHOME MISTAKA HAVE TO DO WITH HITLER?
What kind of sacrilegious anti Semitic racist spittle are you drooling now?
The very thought is sickening.
Have you no decency?
May the Gods of Festivus curse you and your creed

When Noses served unto us all the TEN CONDIMENTS he should have had one more for your unheard of transgression.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 07:38 AM

I Relish the tortures of the darned you will suffer.
If you ever Ketch up to rational thought you will regret your words.
You are in a Pickle sir!

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 07:51 AM

"Hitler?
Shurley, shome mishtake??? "
Your very words.

This is as disgusting as Lincoln's Emasculation of the slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 07:56 AM

sorry sorry I thought it was talk like Ake day

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:01 AM

If you have ever heard the defensive lies by the conservative Trump apologists you know they are not there to apologize. They are there to defend and preserve the hate and heritage of the KKK and Nazi parallel groups.

Fox News is famous for interviewing the KKK over Ferguson MS and Charlottesville VA. They have legitimatized the Klan POV more than Trump. They claim the Left are the only killers and destructive demonstrators. They have repeated this theme for decades.

Half of the country is entranced by the steady news stream of hate of the villainous left.

Reasonable people do not like lies but with repetition they stop fighting against the lies. Until they too repeat them.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:37 AM

Put the statues in a museum dedicated to slavery.

Would that include all George Washington statues Steve?
He had 123 slaves on his estate.
Thomas Jefferson statues would all have to be shut away in slavery museums too. He kept slaves and used at least one of them for sex because she was impregnated by him.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:42 AM

Its long past time these monuments to treason and slavery were removed.

If the Daughters and Sons of the Confederacy (do look up both groups) want to set up a Confederate Theme Park & put them all there so that they can persist in the fantasy of a noble "Lost Cause" and revel in the history of white supremacy, Jim Crow, lynching and all the rest, let them have at it.


"[W]e must not be asked to say that the South was right in the rebellion, or to say the North was wrong. We must not be asked to put no difference between those who fought for the Union and those who fought against it, or between loyalty and treason.

I admit that the South believed it was right, but the nature of things is not changed by belief. The Inquisition was not less a crime against humanity because it was believed right by the Holy Fathers.

[T]he sectional character of this war was merely accidental and its least significant feature. It was a war of ideas, a battle of principles and ideas which united one section and divided the other; a war between the old and new, slavery and freedom, barbarism and civilization; between a government based upon the broadest and grandest declaration of human rights the world ever heard or read, and another pretended government, based upon an open, bold and shocking denial of all rights, except the right of the strongest.

Good, wise, and generous men at the North, is power and out of power, for whose good intentions and patriotism we must all have the highest respect, doubt the wisdom of observing this memorial day, and would have us forget and forgive, strew flowers alike and lovingly, on rebel and on loyal graves. This sentiment is noble and generous, worthy of all honor as such; but it is only a sentiment after all, and must submit to its own rational limitations. There was a right side and a wrong side in the late war, which no sentiment ought to cause us to forget, and while to-day we should have malice toward none, and charity toward all, it is no part of our duty to confound right with wrong, or loyalty with treason."

    - Frederick Douglass, 30 May 1878



The Whole Address is worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:44 AM

I see the Professor is channelling Twitler now, and maintains that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson took up arms against the government of the United States in the cause of Slavery.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:52 AM

"Removing all Confederate statues would be the first step in sending the message that we are no longer honoring white supremacy at a societal level. We've already seen progress in Tampa, Florida, and New Orleans, Louisiana, where Confederate symbols are being "
Absolutely
Washingtom, et al lived in a slave owning/trading society as did the founders of industrial Britain - they bowed to its inevitability as did Britain
Washingtom
"Washington expressed other concerns over slavery's implications for the nation. In 1797, Washington is reported to have told a British guest: "I can clearly foresee that nothing but the rooting out of slavery can perpetuate the existence of our union"
"Jefferson"
"In his writings on American grievances justifying the Revolution, he attacked the British for sponsoring the slave trade to the colonies. In 1778, with Jefferson's leadership, slave importation was banned in Virginia, one of the first jurisdictions worldwide to do so. Jefferson was a lifelong advocate of ending the trade and as president led the effort to criminalize the international slave trade that passed Congress and he signed in 1808, a year after the British did the same thing"
Lincoln
"Lincoln often expressed moral opposition to slavery in public and private.[1] Initially, he expected to bring about the eventual extinction of slavery by stopping its further expansion into any U.S. territory, and by proposing compensated emancipation (an offer Congress applied to Washington, D.C.) in his early presidency. Lincoln stood by the Republican Party's platform of 1860, which stated that slavery should not be allowed to expand into any more territories. He believed that the extension of slavery in new western lands would block "free labor on free soil", and he also wanted a peaceful, enduring end to slavery. As early as the 1850s, Lincoln was politically attacked as an abolitionist, but he did not consider himself one. "
The men who these statues stood for slavery and, as Joe pointed out, are used espectabilise colour prejudice - many were erected to honour just that
The have far more to do with the present thna they do of the past
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:53 AM

Keith, the monuments in question, that are coming down and will continue to come down, were erected to traitors who fought a war, which killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, to preserve slavery. Not too difficult to understand unless you've adopted an moron like Trump, with all his racially motivated misdirections, for your history teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:55 AM

The primary thing you have to understand is that the Confederacy existed to overthrow the American government.

Trump likes that, as do his hate-filled followers.

Putting up monuments to traitors years after they were defeated is a big old "Fuck You" to America and those who love America. It's a big "we still think you should be slaves" to Blacks. Whatever some people think a symbol means, whatever the meaning is to the greatest number of people is what wins.

I think it's good to put the statues in a museum somewhere and talk about them. They aren't shoved in people's faces all the time, and they aren't considered to be what a town is about.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:55 AM

If anybody wishes to visit a half-decent Slavery museum, they could do worse than visit the one on the site of the former Liverpool docks, whre generations of slaves were landed and sold
A truely fitting memorial to our past
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:04 AM

You thought wrong, Ache, about that screed by Joe Ryan- whoever the hell he's supposed to be. Having been fool enough actually to read it, I can tell you that I've seldom - and possibly ever- seen such a pile of absolute horseshit pretending to be history in a single place.

If you really want to know about Lincoln, may I suggest the excellent works by Ronald White and Doris Kearns Goodwin. There are also some excellent factual biographies of Lee out there written by actual scholars and historians instead of by some ignorant idiot Confederate apologist.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stu
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:05 AM

"Would that include all George Washington statues Steve?"

Did you read gillymor's post Keith, or are you ignoring the arguments that you cannot oppose? Again.

Tiresome trying to debate with folk who don't know how to debate.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:11 AM

Some folks around here should get a gander at the kind of hatred
they 're defending, wether they know it or not.

Charlottesville: Race and Terror- Vice News

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:12 AM

The parroting of the "Washington owned slaves" red herring...

Lots of people owned slaves. It was a thing back then. It was a very bad thing. We fought a war because our government wanted to make it illegal, and another group of people didn't think the government should do that, so they wanted to get rid of the government.

Then some assholes in places where that insurrection was strong put up statues to commemorate the people who wanted to destroy the government and keep slavery legal.

And then we tore them down.

The End

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:14 AM

Succinct Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:15 AM

monuments are also a memorial to the huge number of ordinary Americans who fought for "The South"

Ache, What about that monument in Coventry to "The Brave Men Of The Luftwaffe"?

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:21 AM

Greg,
maintains that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson took up arms against the government of the United States in the cause of Slavery.

No. I maintain that they were slave owners.
If supporting slavery is the issue, Jefferson and Washington have to go too.

" traitors who fought a war,"

Traitors because they wanted to secede, like Irish home rulers and today's Scottish Nationalists?

Here in Britain we believe in people's right to self determination.

I know that the US Civil War is still and emotive and divisive issue over there. As a foreigner I probably will never understand, so I will say no more.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:26 AM

Some foreigners are very well versed in American history but your comment 'As a foreigner I probably will never understand, so I will say no more.' is your first rational contribution to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:27 AM

What about that monument in Coventry to "The Brave Men Of The Luftwaffe"?

I can respond to that.
There is none.
Neither are there any memorials in Germany to the brave men of the USAF or RAF.
There are war memorials to the dead of Germany in Germany however, and similarly in Japan.

Should the victors of that war go back and tear them down?
That would stir up resentment and hatred too.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:31 AM

so I will say no more.

God Be Praised!

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:33 AM

Whoops! Geez, Professor, thought you'd said you were going to shut up? But we all know what your promises are worth, so no surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:33 AM

http://thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm

Scroll down to see some of the memorials.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:34 AM

Greg I was replying to your comment about Coventry and WW2, nothing to do with US history.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:36 AM

Meanwhile back in America .................

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:46 AM

"like Irish home rulers and today's Scottish Nationalists?"
A total misrepresentation of history (nothing new there)
Scotland and Ireland were occupied separate countries with individual cultures - part of a now defuncy empire
The Southern States were always a part of America
To suggest otherwise is to accept that the Southern counties of England should be allowed to secede from Britan
An utterly crass idea
Sice to see another mask fall and an arguments about the merits of slavery
"Here in Britain we believe in people's right to self determination."
At the time slavery fell in the US Britain was the richest slave-owning nation in the world - only we called it Empire
We continued to oppose "self determination" right up to World War one; long after the fall of Empire, Britain and other "democracies" still manipulate the former colonies by helping organise coups and deposing and even murdering new leaders who didn't suit
Ireland's struggle for "self determination" from the Empire led to all those leading the demand for "self determination" being secretly tried, refused legal defence and shot out of hand without recourse to appeal
The details of those kangaroo courts still remain a closely guarded secret, a century after they sent so many to their deaths.
Tell us again how Britain "believes in people's right to self determination."
What planet do you people occupy?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 11:14 AM

Actually Don, you have given an excellent example of the establishment and all its works in Akhenaton.
The man was a rebel who wanted social and political change, the first monotheist in history, a pacifist and artist, a poet and writer.

How the establishment and all their gods must have hated him, even more than the "liberals" hate the President I bet. They destroyed everything the Pharaoh cherished destroyed all the evidence erased his name.....all driven by self interest just like the political establishment of today....the Democrats scheming against their own because they feared him more than DJ...if they couldn't have their shill(Clinton)they thought that the Republicans would dump Trump after the election.

Anyway Akhenaton is now remembered as a visionary and the Egyptian establishment vanished like snow in Summer.

Unity and evolution in place of violence and strife.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 11:26 AM

Meme one.

Meme 2.

Meme 3.

Just a few of the many making the rounds.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

Here ya go Ache (and Professor)- by a REAL well-respected historian of the Civil War, JAMES McPHERSON, and not some ignorant Neo-Confederate clown on his blog.

Read and learn.

Fat chance...

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:04 PM

"Akhenaton."
The minute amount that is known of Akhenaton s that he beliv himself to be a god - as did all phaeroes Pharaoh and he sysematically wiped out all traces of his rivals religions in order to replace them with his own "establishment"
He was the first Pharaoh to have statues and paintings dedicated to himself.
I've often wondered where you chose the identity you hide behind - a self-obsessed, dictatorial megalomaniac with illusions of divinity who ruled over a brutal slave society seems just about right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:16 PM

I'd buy a beer for Greg, Gilly and Jeri any day or night.
Port for Steve and Prune juice for Ake. "Juice will not reAke us"

Bannon knows how to weaponize the Culture Warriors, Fox contributors and Nazis expertly and then make it so appealing to Trump's ego it becomes policy.
He is the guy who got any two students to fight in school.

What tomorrow holds may be a cleaner image for Nazis and more clever goons at best, at worst a more dynamic Nazi following implied Presidential orders.


As for Maryland and its white racist statues, the meme is...
"Governor we have a dozen racist statues"
"Really? Hold my beer"
In three hours they were all gone and the Governors beer was not quite flat.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:01 PM

Bannon is fired. GOODBYE WE KNEW YOU TOO WELL.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:13 PM

Jim, Ireland was not, and Scotland is not an occupied country.
Both were integral parts of one united country for centuries, much longer than the Southern States had been in the Union.

We continued to oppose "self determination" right up to World War one;

No. We agreed to Irish home rule before WW1.

To suggest otherwise is to accept that the Southern counties of England should be allowed to secede from Britan

I do suggest that they should be allowed, if a majority want it.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:16 PM

Meanwhile, back in the U.S............

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM

Mitt Romney has now called upon Twither to apologize to the nation and the world.

Don't be too gleeful about Bannon - the POSOTUS will replace him with someone even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 03:01 PM

"Jim, Ireland was not, and Scotland is not an occupied country."
Ireland has always regarded itself an occupied country and that was admitted by Britain pulling out
British rule was maintained by force of arms for centuries
"No. We agreed to Irish home rule before WW1."
Home rule was an attempt to make Ireland a Dominion - that was not independence.
That was betrayed by the British conniving with the Northern Irish loyalists in reneging on an agreed time limit
When that betrayal was discovered, even the compromise Home Rule Bill was rejected and the Home Rule Party disintegrated
We've been here Keith and you and your racist mate were thrashed roundly
"I do suggest that they should be allowed, if a majority want it."Then you are even more stupid than I took you for
No part of a country can ever possibly break off from the main body because "they want it" - utterly stupid
If that was possible, Thatcher would have declared independence for the wealthy South East when she was in power - you live in your own little la-la land.
You totally ignore the brutality and bloodshed shown towards any nation who demanded independence, including to America, who had to go to war to be free of Britain.
India, Kenya and virtually every other African nation, Cyprus, Israel.... all had to resort to force to get self determination.
I reall am not going into your stupid blind alley again - Britain was a brutal colonising power whu ruled countries by foce, bled them dry and destroyed their indigenous cultures
That was what Emipre was about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM

You obviously know very little Egyptology Jim.

I can recommend Arthur Weigall's "Treasury of Ancient Egypt", it should be ideal for you as it is written by an acknowledged expert and has lots of pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 03:57 PM

You obviously know very little Egyptology Jim.


Whareas you, Ache, are a proven Master of Bullshitology.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:20 PM

Meanwhile back in the British Isles when--- they go and do their Nazi thang, they do it right! they don't just ethnically cleanse they make an entire race EXTINCT like in Tasmania. England rules.

back over to the USA and our weak ass Nazis...

Without the devious Bannon they are going to try and train TRUMP with index cards on American and World history. Republicans tried this with Sarah Palin and failed. The new General Chief of staff might try to give him lessons in empathy, a moral center or even a soul .

Trump has no knowledge. You know what they say about a little Knowledge being a dangerous thing? Believe it or not he could become more dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:39 PM

I wish my posts were as succinct as the Acme Meme post

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:54 PM

Ake I was given an ancient Egyptian coin. Years later in college I learned that my coin was movie token for the premiere of 'The Mummy' 193o's.

Early Egyptians had no coins, they were paid in beer and bread.

Sometimes learning the truth destroys the value of what you think you knew or had. But Truth is priceless. Treasure it.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 06:38 PM

But Truth is priceless. Treasure it.

Only to sentient beings, Don.

That leaves the Trumpistas out of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:15 PM

I would say the best post on this thread is by Frederick Douglass via greg.

It has held its truth intact for 150 years.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 03:31 AM

"You obviously know very little Egyptology Jim."
No - course I don't Ache, I'm sure that it's a centuries old myth that the rulers of Egypt were regarded as deities running slave societies.
I visited Egypt several times, took the trip down the Nile, visited the temples, listened to the lectures, and came home and read Budge and Lane and Vercouter... and everything readable I could lay hands on, on the subject that interested me so much (as an amateur enthusiast of archaeology)
I'm sure you're going to put me straight on what I missed (when you have time, of course!!)
Your picture books don't interest me - lots of them for sale on every stall along our trip down the nile
Arthur Edward Pearse Brome Weigall was an amature Egyptologist who became a journalist for the Daily Mail
"In London during World War I Arthur Weigall became a successful set-designer for the London revue stage. An association with film began: he worked with Bannister Merwin, Jack Buchanan, and Phyllis Monkton on the film Her Heritage, and in the 1920s Lord Northcliffe appointed him film critic for the Daily Mail. Later, one of his novels was made into the film Burning Sands by the producer George Melford."
A Daily Mail journalist who includes "lots of pictures" - just where I'd go for reliable information!!
Spiritualists, enthusiasts for slavery, Empire Loyalists and supporters of 'The independent Republic of Rutland' - this thread is becoming over-run by a couple of nutters
Time to return to sanity, I think - back to bck to the Nazification of Trump's America, I think.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 04:11 AM

You do love misrepresentation Jim.....Northcliffe appointed Weigall film critic in a Daily Mail which bore no similarity to todays tabloid.

If you think nothing is known about Akhenaton try reading Weigalls book on the subject.
For anyone interested the full WILI for Arthur Weigall is
HERE

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 04:56 AM

Jim,
Ireland has always regarded itself an occupied country and that was admitted by Britain pulling out
British rule was maintained by force of arms for centuries

Not true Jim.
And, the secession of Ireland was agreed before WW1, and Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and any other bit is free to secede if they have a majority in favour.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:27 AM

"Scotland and Ireland were occupied separate countries with individual cultures"

Really Jom?

Scotland most certainly was an independent country united under one ruler, one church and one legal system. Please tell us all when before the arrival of the Normans the same could ever have been said of Ireland.

As to "occupied" - what work of alternative history did you pluck that from?

IIRC Scotland and England were two separate countries in 1603 when on the death of Queen Elizabeth the First the reigning Scottish King ascended to the Throne of England - no invasion, no battles, no occupation. The two countries remained separate entities until 1707 when the two Parliaments united - no invasion, no battles, no occupation - Scotland still retained her own church and her own legal system.

Also IIRC the Normans were "invited" over to Ireland by one disgruntled Irish "King" who was in dispute with a couple of other Irish "Kings" and required outside help to hang onto his "kingdom". Unfortunately for the disgruntled one the Normans on arrival did what they did best from Ireland all the way east to Aleppo - they held onto any land they fought for, then assimilated with the local population.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:37 AM

"Home rule was an attempt to make Ireland a Dominion - that was not independence."

Really Jom?

Tell that to thee Canadians, the Australians, the South Africans, the Indians, the Pakistanis, the New Zealanders.

Truth remains Jom had the Irish gone for Home rule and dominion status in 1920 then a fully independent and united Ireland would have come into existence in 1931. Instead seven eedjits in secret and entirely off their own bat opted for the path of violence the gun and solely because of that you are as far away now from an independent united Ireland as you were 103 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:33 AM

Sorry lads - the Irish battle is done and dusted
Want to take it any further go buy a book and get someone to read if for you - or better still, go re-open one of the overlong threads where you told us about stupid Irish and brainwashed children
If I wanted race hate I'd open a BNP site
Don't you racists ever know when to lie down?
Back to the point
An insightful letter in this morning's Irish times on the 'historical value' of the Confederate statues

"Sir, - Oisin Keogh, who objects to the removal of, as he ' calls them, "symbolic monuments" of confederate leaders and generals, says history matters. If he cares that much about his¬tory, then surely he knows that the vast majority of these monuments were commissioned and financed during the 1920s - a period when the Ku Klux Klan was emerging and infiltrating local I and state government in the I US. These monuments are not symbolic in any way other than highlighting the deep-seated racism and anger over the loss of the war of Confederate sympathisers. People of any ethnic persuasion other than white have to walk past a monument to their oppressor anytime they want to go to a park, or school or any other public place where one of these statues has been erected. It would be akin to a statue of Rommel at Normandy, or Cromwell in Drogheda.
History does matter, and I would suggest that Mr Keogh read some to fully understand that while Washington and Jefferson were slave owners, and nobody is forgetting that, they at least created a declaration that stated "that all men are created equal" and a framework to free slaves. The people who marched in Charlottesville under the pretext of "statue rights" do not believe in that last statement. And if you agree with Donald Trump on this matter, then neither do you. - Yours, etc,
DAVID CONLON"

Another letter points out that the only ones with a real grievance about the removal of the statues are the pigeons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 07:02 AM

The more usual spelling is Akhenaten (I would hesitate to say correct, as its a translation of an ancient Egyptian name). The Aten (jtn) being the disc of the sun. He may or may not have written the Great Hymn to the Aten, which presaged at least one of the Psalms. In common with many of the nobility of the day, he slept with his sister, which union produced Tutankhamun (originally Tutankhaten).

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 08:50 AM

There are several spellings David, Akknaton, Ikknaton, Akhenaton.

My nom de plume is a deliberate misspelling, as I take no chances with Pharaoh's curses.....:0)

A great mystery and a hugely interesting historical character.

Subject: RE: BS: blood & soil Nazification of America
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 09:01 AM

Meanwhile, back to America & its Nazis....