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BS: brexit matters

Iains 13 Sep 17 - 04:37 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 17 - 06:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 17 - 04:35 PM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM
David Carter (UK) 12 Sep 17 - 02:01 PM
The Sandman 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Sep 17 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 09:55 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Sep 17 - 09:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 07:58 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 07:49 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 07:43 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 17 - 07:41 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 17 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Sep 17 - 06:40 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 06:32 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 04:31 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM
David Carter (UK) 12 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 02:25 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 02:05 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 01:49 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 01:44 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 08:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 08:00 PM
Iains 11 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:37 AM

Jim. The last poll showed a slight majority to remain. How that pans out in the future is any one's guess. The issue of the existing border is another long running sore. It is in everyones interest to have a peaceful resolution whatever the final decision may be.

My previous post has a bit of a timing gap that requires explanation.
During Maggie's reign Big Bang occurred that turned the city inside out.
Difficult to summarize briefly but technology was introduced, dealing became way more efficient and outside banks came to play. Also the first major UK privatisations occurred involving record sums. Now whether you wish to argue it reflected the inevitable march of progress or it was a cunning Thatcherite plan you can argue for ever.
"Competition, innovation and globalisation were unleashed on London, breaking up the "cartel" and smashing into the "fortress of protectionism," as city grandee David Buik puts it.
In the months before the Big Bang, the average number of trades in London-listed shares was 20,000, amounting to around £700m in value.
This year, the average has been more than 45-times as many: 976,000 with an average of £5bn worth of equities changing hands every day.
The changes introduced during the Thatcher years are ongoing.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:35 AM

You can buy an MX5 new for low twenties, Al. Mrs Steve has a beaten-up ten-year-old soft-top job. You can have it for three grand. It's a peach. Basic, noisy, occasional wet carpets but more fun than a barrelful of monkeys.

Demonstrating your fiscal knowledge in that unfocused way is not addressing points, Iains. It's just boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM

Iains
Two of those dates predate Brecit
What you choose to ignore is that in the speed of the shift of of opinion that is taking place
At the time of the Troubles 98.9% voted to remain
Since then the position has rocketed to where it is now
Sinn Fein has for the first time called for a referendum, confident that it can win.
The ruling party no longer has an overall majority and will not survive without the co-operation of the other parties.
Let's face it - the idea of a large section of a nation voting for whether it should be ruled by another is a bizarre and grotesque one anyway and always has been
Transfer the same logic to Britain and imagine the six Eastern counties having to vote or take up arms to decide whether is should still belong to Germany (had it once been part of the Hapsburg Empire)
All this is a bloody throwback to the time when a large section of the world was ruled by an Empire on which "the sun never set nor the blood ever dried" - a predatory system of world enslavement that was given the kiss of death when entire generations of young men gave their lives in its defence.
I have never been a nationalist of any sort - English or Irish, but I have come to realise the importance of a people being allowed to create their own future and make their own mistakes.
Ireland was ruled by a long-term attempt to deliberate and systematic destroy its culture, militarily, politically and socially -
The Irish renaissance in the 19th century proved that that failed miserabl soy, when it became necessary, Britain turned to annexation under the treat of war.
That has filled body bags ever since and will continue to do so until "The Irish Question" is finally laid to rest.
We've been over this a hundred times on this forum - I really think we should leave it there and give everybody else a chance
I really am tired of these arguments with Empire Loyalists who salute flag like pets who "roll over and die for the queen" at the commands of their masters
Thank you Al - nice to have a meeting point with someone I have no real argument with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM

"The rot that started with Thatcher's release of financial institutions from scrutiny"
"the recklessness of this policy was reflected across the Atlantic."
You have that ass about face!
Try this!
" In the 1930s, the Glass-Steagall Act prohibited retail banks from using deposits to fund risky stock market purchases.

In the 1980s, banks sought deregulation to allow them to compete globally with more profitable financial firms. In 1999, they got their wish. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed Glass-Steagall.

The banks promised to invest only in low-risk securities. These would diversify their portfolios and reduce the risk for their customers. Instead, traditional banks invested in risky derivatives to increase profit and shareholder value.

Foreign countries blame these lax U.S. banking regulations for the global financial crisis. In 2008, the G-20 asked the United States to increase regulation of hedge funds and other financial firms. The United States refused, saying deregulation was needed for companies to compete globally.

Two years later, the G-20 got several things it had asked for when Congress passed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act. First, the Act required banks to hold more capital to cushion against large losses. Second, it included strategies to keep companies from becoming too big to fail. The biggest was insurance giant American International Group Inc. Third, it required derivatives to move onto exchanges for better monitoring."


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM

you'd need more than a hundred grand.

the other thing about the Thatcher/ Blair period was the bit where bankruptcy became good business practice. you embark on a project . raise loans, live the high life - but the business is registered somewhere outside the jurisdiction of England. It became an intelligent way to exploit the the THatcherite liberalisation of credit. quite an acceptable way for business to be conducted.

the iceberg hit....you start another business. Larry Lamb and Tim Spall were in a tv play about it at the time.

I know to my cost because a record/publishing company who were doing my songs at the time did it to me and a lot of other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:17 PM

The rot that started with Thatcher's release of financial institutions from scrutiny was enthusiastically maintained by New Labour and the recklessness of this policy was reflected across the Atlantic. All the signs were there but we were all doing oh so well (except for the poor, who found themselves falling further and further behind). The US housing market was the most unbelievably irresponsible place. Once that shivered we all caught flu. But we were doing very bad things here too. Banks not having the equity to support risky lending. You could borrow 125% of the value of the house you were buying, no deposit needed, few checks, borrowing six times your income. It wasn't Clinton doing that in the UK, Teribus. It was Northern Rock and all the rest of 'em. But we haven't learned. Trump is deregulating again, deregulation is in the Tories' blood and indebtedness is as bad here as it was before 2008. Whilst I would never dream of doing it, even on my modest income I could go out tomorrow and buy a hundred-grand sports car if I wanted to, no deposit, no problem. My "credit rating" is absolutely spotless. No-one's watching me!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:35 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM

brilliant post! agree with every word


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:17 PM

Here you are Jim. The bit(with dates) that you did not read.



"A 2011 survey by Northern Ireland Life and Times found that 52% of Northern Irish Catholic respondents favoured union with Great Britain over a united Ireland.[42][43] This is despite the fact that most Catholics who vote do so for political parties that are Nationalist.

According to a 2015 opinion poll, 70% expressed a long-term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom (either directly ruled or with devolved government), while 14% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland.[44] This discrepancy can be explained by the overwhelming preference among Protestants to remain a part of the UK (93%), while Catholic preferences are spread across a number of solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (47%), a united Ireland (32%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (4%), and those who "don't know" (16%).[45]

Since the 2016 Brexit vote, support for reunification has increased, with 22% of respondents favourable towards reunification, up from 17% in 2013.[46] 43% of Catholics would now back reunification, up from 35% in 2013. According to this survey, support for a referendum stands at 53% of Catholics, while 72% of Protestant respondents were opposed to the idea."


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM

"David Carter. A partial answer for you(towards the end) "
Your WiKi article is undated
The D.U.P are now a minority part - they still have the largest number of votes, but should their opponents combine they will be outnumbered - all three are opposed to Brexit and have no great aversion to a United Ireland.
The majority of the Republic would now vote for a United Ireland
Within the next couple of years there will no longer a Protestant majority in Ireland - they will be in the minority numerically.
Hopefully the Catholics in ascendance will not treat the Protestants the same way they have been treated since 1922, one wa of guaranteeing this will not happen will be to make the power sharing negotiations to work in everybody's favour.
Brexit has put this at risk - a hard border and direct rule from Westminster will guarantee return to the early 70s
I was announced today by the police that toe U.V.F, - the paramilitary group with links to the DUP (the Party Britain has just bunged a billion for their support for Brexit) is now heavily involved in the drugs trade -NOTHING NEW THERE, linking Britain not just to terrorrim but also to narcotics
Wake up and smell the coffee lads
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM

David Carter. A partial answer for you(towards the end)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:01 PM

The Protestant majority may have wanted to remain in the UK in the 1920s, but the UK of today is a far lesser place. I think it would be worth checking what the majority of the population want now.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

Is it a storm in a teacup?will not the poor still be poor and the rich, wealthy?I hope that the Labour party wins and thatthast poor people in society get protection from unsrupulous employers


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

"Rubbish. The protestant majority wanted to remain part of the UK."
The Protestant majoority came from 'Pnater' stock and immediately set about creating a 'Planter' based State which discriminated against one third of the population and in doing so, forfeited any right to describe itself as "democratic"
Britain became part of that non-democracy in its reaction to the attempts of the third to improve the balance and so became instrumental in bringing about the bloody 'Troubles' we all lived though.
Nobody, The Unionists, The Nationalists or the Brits came out with clean hands, but the ultimate blame lies with the nearly half-century of inequality and bigotry
Sorry - this is becoming a triologue
I suggest that, unless you have nothing new to add, we leave it there and give others a chance
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:00 AM

"In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?"
Iains raised the question, not me


And I was questioning your response, which is where the claim that Brexit makes UK 'isolationist'.

I'll quote the whole post just so you can't say I'm quoting you out of context:
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM

(Iains) "and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?"
(Jim)No it does not thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence
Immaterial anyway - Ireland is remaining in the EU
(Iains) "For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
(Jim) The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:55 AM

"In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?"
Iains raised the question, not me
Britain outside the E.U., because it is unable to "stand on its own feet", becomes dependent on being "Global"
Brexit is very much an isolationist policy - that is how it was sold - not unsimilar to Trump's "making America Great again"
Both are based on getting rid of foreigners - Trump is somewhat more forthright in blaming all America's ills on immigrants, the Brexit campaign was largely based on 'the urbanned menace' and the effects of that were seen immediately in the rise of racist incidents.
Even within the E.U., Britain's policy of importing goods produced under appalling conditions was immoral and detrimental to the British people as a whole by doing exactly what Ake and others have accused immigration of doing, undercutting British labour.
Can I make this "Irish" thing quite clear
I am a British citizen living in Ireland - I own no loyalty to or bear any responsibility for the actions of Irish politicians
My feeling is that, under the system we all live under, membership of Europe is better for both in the short term
If you want to propose a system that is to the advantage of the British (and Irish) people as a whole, you have me ear, and probably my support
As it stands, Brexit seems a return to the dark days of boom and slump, permanent high unemployment, accelerating differences between haves and have-nots and an economy run for the already over-privileged.
As I said earlier, the E.U. is an organisation of capitalist states - fine in the short term; in the long term, it has my support as the rope supports a hanging man - Greece confirmed that for me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM

"The Republic has never recovered by the massive loss of population by death and forced emigrations of the mid nineteenth century,"
Strange you trot the above out every opportunity yet never mention the highland clearances. Were they just a walk in the park?

" thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence"
Rubbish. The protestant majority wanted to remain part of the UK.
Should we root out the angles and saxons and vikings on the basis od their DNA and ship them out after x hundred years. This makes as much sense as you using the term "settlers" just to make a pathetic divisive argument. The development of industry in the north not the south was primarily due to geography Take away shipbuilding and linen and there ain't a lot left, and both have been in serious decline for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:09 AM

250


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll


In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?
Brexit allows us to deal on our own terms with the rest of the world (i.e. 'Globally'). This includes allowing us to deal with the EU.
Brexit is not an isolationist policy, it is a globalist policy. We do not wish our trade with other nations to be restricted by some of the silly rules originated within the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

Sould have added - under British Rule, all the major industry was centred in the North East - the bit that still remains under British rule
The Republic has never recovered by the massive loss of population by death and forced emigrations of the mid nineteenth century, the aftershocks of which are still very much a part of Irish life today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM

"and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?"
No it does not thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence
Immaterial anyway - Ireland is remaining in the EU
"For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM

"Britain being incapable of "standing on its own feet" without an industrial base"
and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?
For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison and I do not mean the union.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM

Continue..
You are ignoring what I wrote about Britain being incapable of "stonding on its own feet" without an industrial base
Also, the implications, both morally and practically of Britain dealing with despots and importing goods being produced by slave labour
Inevitably, Brexit will make Britain even more dependent on such tainted goods
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM

"""How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011""
You aare putting it up as how it affects Britain after Brexit
Britsin was part of ignoring its own rules if the complaints are accurate - a culprit, not a victim
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:58 AM

""How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011"
and??????????????????????

Here is a view of reality: It has it's upsides and downsides.

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/west-economy-misbalanced-services-manufacturing.html

If you want to argue a service economy is not ideal I can understand your view.
If you want to argue our economy is too dependent on financial service and therefore potentially vulnerable I would agree with you.
Much of what you trot out is just a tired old mantra with no supporting statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

Steve Shaw is my one and only name and I'm a big hairy bloke, Jim. Woodcock here, aka Teribus, was the first to call me Shaw, and his little puppydog Iains came along and copied him like a sheep. Everybody in the world who knows me calls me Steve except for those two. Well, Mrs Steve has been known to be slightly less complimentary....


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:49 AM

"I told you to calm down Jim."
Read what has gobe before Ake - you insulting rolling is as much a part of the state of this forum
I was sixty miles away from my computer when the Mogg thread was closed down - Teribus and Iians posted six times between them after my last posting
- they included three personal insults or attempts to 'talk down' , which I reckon was the reason the thread got coles down
It's about time you cleaned up your act too
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:43 AM

Jim you need to be put in a case and displayed alongside T REX in a museum unless you can argue from the 21st century, not the timewarp of nonsensical argument you are trapped in. No doubt you would argue we need apprenticeships for fletchers and bowmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:41 AM

There was a lot of interesting responses and more posts in a day than any other.......this thread is full of cursing and obscenities by Backwoodsman, but its still open.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:30 AM

Just got back, who closed the JRM thread...and why?

I told you to calm down Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:57 AM

"Jom - Shaw's name is ..... well Shaw? What is wrong with using it?"
I don'tt know if it is his real name, it could be a pseudonym - but his chosen name is "Steve Shaw" - "Saw is an attempt to talk down to him (if he is a him" - a deliberate ploy on your part to foulf the atmoshere and in doing so to gain some sort of an advantage
"Jom is the name you yourself once signed off on"
It was a typo and you have been tod that numerous times - it repleced your equally unimaginative "Christmas"
What I said abou "Shaw" goes equally for this an attempt fo establish some sort uf upper ground by talking down to people
Both were a minute part of a massive list of insults, not just on this thread but on dozens of others
Far from from being a response to others (aka "he hit me first sir", they have been part of your bullying behaviour from the beginning
Some time ago, Joe Offer, in his reasonable way, suggested that we stop behaving like name-calling schoolchildren
Most of us did, you you persist - maybe because you have little else to offer
I up to you to prove that is not the case by behaving like an adult
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM

Iains
"How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011 when Britain was a full member of the EU was a member and had ever4y chance to complain if it found that to be true - in fact, if it is, Britain was as guilty as any and is pert off that "ignoring"
To complain about it now is somewhat ingenuous
"Making its own rules" is a somewhat stupidly meaningless term - the EU is an organic organisation whose job it is to adapt to changing circumstances by "making its own rules" - whose job is it to do so if not the EU itself?
Comparing what happens in the EU is equally as meaningless - all that it means is that the entire system we live under is in the clarts, not just Britain, which as far as I am concerned is the point.
Britain cannot "stand on its own feet" without an industrial base
Our industrial base was destroyed long ago so, unless it is replaced, we have no feet to stand on.
It is immaterial who destroyed industry - it was killed off for profit for the investors, not for the benefit of the British people as a whole
We are now reliant on imports, largely from the labour of workers working in slave-like conditions, which, apart from the moral issue, which creates another massive problem for us in that those wishing to seek a better life turn to Britain as a haven from the hell we have helped create an are perpetuating with our trade.
Our demand for oil and our support for the most despotic regimes has led to a flood of refugees seeking safety from wars we have helped create.
This is not just about economics - it involves the well-being and future of the whole planet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:40 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM
you don't get it. industries aren't like maggie thatcher said, a shopping basket and if theres threepence off you buy from someone else.
they are interdependant. when you lost the coal. you lost the steel.. you lost the mining equipment manufacturing - we were world leaders in that. you lost huge swathes of transport. huge reasons for running trains.


Yes, and rather than just blaming Maggie, look at the actual history.
Callaghan & Wilson closed more pits than Thatcher.
But they were the labour party, so presumably that's Ok.

Even when Maggie did close them, some had already had a year of non-production due to strikes (or maybe walk-outs). The strikes were also endorsed by the Labour Party.

Let's put the blame where it belongs.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:32 AM

Jom - Shaw's name is ..... well Shaw? What is wrong with using it?

Jom is the name you yourself once signed off on - during one of your interminable, incoherent rants and I rather liked it so it stuck.

In most of your "examples" Jom put them in context and you will discover they were written in response to comments made by others.

Now then Shaw? EU cannot abide by the rules it lays down - Go and take a look at the supposed rules for the ECB - they say what the bank can and cannot do - compare that to what the ECB is currently doing and has been doing for some time now under Mario Draghi on the orders of the EU Commission.

London is the largest and greatest financial hub in the world - it will continue to be so. WHY? Because it is independent of political interference unlike any bank in the Eurozone, if you doubt that ask the Greeks, the Cypriots, the Italians, the Spanish and the Irish. The world of international finance just simple will not trust the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM

Even Labour's PM Wilson saw a structural problem with British Industry in the early 60's.

white heat of technology speech


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM

"The rot started when the Thatcher regime lifted almost all regulation from financial institutions"

London, the capital city of the United Kingdom, is the world's leading financial centre for ... London generates approximately 22 per cent of the UK's GDP
London generates 30% of UK taxes


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM

Decline of Manufacturing not just a British problem

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/economic-policy-papers/competition-and-the-decline-of-the-rust-belt


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:31 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-ticking-euro-bomb-how-the-euro-zone-ignored-its-own-rules-a-790333.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11207721/Why-do-France-and-Germany-keep-breaking-EU-rules.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM

The rot started when the Thatcher regime lifted almost all regulation from financial institutions. True, Labour did not restore it. But that was the seed in this country. Blaming Clinton for banking irresponsibility in this country is ludicrous. You love to preach to us about taking personal responsibility, remember?

"The EU is a totally corrupt organisation who cannot even follow the rules and guidelines they themselves lay down."

Utter nonsense. That's the second time within a week and I'm still waiting to hear from you and Keith about this plethora of examples of the EU not following its own rules, etc. So far, you've given us one which I've disproved. Get to work, Bill (just trying to keep him quiet for a few hours, you understand...)


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:02 AM

A dose of reality-nothing to do with Maggie.
The first from the Guardian, so it must be correct!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/29/crisis-british-steel-tata-40-years-making

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/nostalgia/way-were-cotton-king-manchester-6085736

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

Very easy to generate the links for any industry and check the statistics yourselves. There is no point in singling out Thatcher for blame, she became premier with an inherited situation. Guilt can be shared in all directions. The major problem with government is that it only recognised the severity of the problem with hindsight. Consequently solutions offered were too little, too late. Sticking plasters do nothing to aid a corpse.
DEREGULATION was the mantra of Reaganomics and was adopted indiscriminately.
de regulation
Some would argue it was the best thing since sliced bread, others that it created an uncontrollable economic nemesis. All depends where you are coming from.
To blame the underlying structural changes of British Industry on a sinle politician is patently absurd and naive in the extreme. Socialists need to learn basic economics and history.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:32 AM

I've just opened Dave the Gnome's "You're not welcome on this thread"
Maybe it should be a permathread 'romper-room' for those who find themselves incapable of of behaving respectfully and intelligently, and let the rest of us get on with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

"Mind you maybe the above IS YOU treating others with respect - wouldn't surprise me for one second."

"Hate to burst the bubbles of all the usual moaners "
"Clear as crystal to everybody else Shaw: "
Cases Shaw? what ones would you like to discuss? "
"So tell us Shaw how"
"Well then Shaw "
"That is a joke right? "
"or is that a bit of a problem to understand? "
"A toon for the Remoaners! "
"is a damned sight more relevant than your gas "
"By the way I thought you and the other remoaners on this forum"
"For someone who claims to be as widely travelled as yourself Shaw, I would have thought that by now you would have discovered what the bidet in the bathroom was for - enjoy your ants, skidmarks and view while ye may. "
"When will the remoaners start blaming the weather on Brexit? They appear to have the same knowledge of reality as they do of english grammar and spelling. " "One word sums them all up-PATHETIC!!!!! "
"This from Backwardsman: "
"Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts"
"By the way give my regards to the Musktwats. "
Not quite Backwards, I did take the trouble to correct one of probably many misconceived notions "
"Got it?? "
"How's that countdown of yours goin' Backwards? "

There you go Jom, Backwards, who has a posting style remarkably similar to that of Musktwat, "
"Care to tell us your version of how something becomes Law in the UK " "Backwardsman - I could do with a good laugh. "
"Oh dear someone having a hissyfit. Perhaps a kind forum fairy will delete him! or are some allowed to post what others cannot? "
"Thanks Shaw that was a good laugh. "
"What a remarkably stupid, divisive statement. "
"Not only stupid but inaccurate. "
" What an imagination the boy has- he is totally batshit crazy of course! "
"Backwardsman - more final appearances than Frank Sinatra"
"Go on then Arsefirst - Do it your way. "
"Try RUBBISH! "
"Backwardsman"
"And he's the TWAT complaining about - "rudeness and name-calling" - Priceless."
"Such a polite little fellow. The brexit controversy is becoming a little too taxing for him. "
"Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?"
"That I am afraid is a unique Jimmy interpretation of the referendum result. "
"When people come out with complete and utter crap"
"By the way Numbnuts this was your first post to this thread: "
"Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it. "

This is a list of ill-mannered and personally insulting postings from just two people on this single thread alone – there are hundreds of others on other threads, mainly closed down by such behaviour
Yet another interesting thread has just been closed as a direct result of the same behaviour of one of these people
There are a tiny number of other bad-tempered postings, invariably in direct response to insults by this pair.
If this behaviour is allowed to continue, this thread also will cease to exist, and so will this forum
Perhaps that's the purpose of peple who find themselves out of their depth and substitute bullying, sneering and personal insulting as a substitute for intelligent argument
I suggest that, if they are unable to control themselves, somebody in authority should take the situation in hand
We really cannot carry on decent, intelligent debates in the face of aggression such as this
The fact that there are only two main, persistent culprits should make it easy enough to deal with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM

I hate to (at least partially) agree with Teribus, but the whole financial crisis was a result of irresponsible lending by financial institutions on both side of the Atlantic. I think though it goes back further than Clinton. Neither GWB nor Obama should have been given the money to bail out the banks, and though I think Vince Cable is right on brexit, he was an early advocate of bailing out banks in the UK which should never have happened. The banks should have been allowed to go bust, and depositors compensated up to the FSA limit.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:25 AM

2008 financial crisis Shaw has S.F.A. to do with a British Prime Minister who had been out of office for 17 years before it happened.

The person who caused the 2008 world financial crash was a President of the United States of America and his administration. The President's name was William Jefferson Clinton and he did the damage in 1998 when he told the two largest mortgage brokers in the US to ensure loans were arranged for people who should never have been lent a penny. He did this and those mortgage brokers complied on the inferred promise by Clinton and his administration that these loans would be guaranteed by the Federal Reserve Bank. Only problem was the Fed knew absolutely nothing about it. That sub-prime debt was sold all over the world based on that lie and when the bubble burst the world caught a cold. Very early on in the crisis GWB asked Congress for $731 million to cover the crisis and the request was refused - Obama and the Democrats wanted to be seen as riding in to the rescues, which they did the February after he took up office. Unfortunately it was far too late, confidence had been lost and the $840 million he had to spend could not stop the run - GWB of course should have been given the money when it could have done some good. So Shaw, nothing whatsoever to do with Thatcher, and in the years that our banks made enormous profits I didn't hear a squeak of protest or any objection from Labour who were in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:05 AM

SPB-Cooperator during the recent EU \referendum Campaign, as far as my vote went, the Leave side of it did not have to say a word. At any point from about 1982 onwards my vote would have been LEAVE - Don't think I am alone in that. The EU is a totally corrupt organisation who cannot even follow the rules and guidelines they themselves lay down.

If your mined coal is costing £250 per ton and you are relying on that to provide power to your industries because no-one else will buy it then everything you produce must absorb that cost which in turn means that your products are priced too high then your industries are going to go out of business irrespective of what Government is in power, especially if the country is part of a trading block (EU) that clearly states that government subsidies are illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 01:49 AM

By the way Numbnuts this was your first post to this thread:

Backwoodsman - 09 Sep 17 - 09:54 AM

There's a live feed on FB at the moment from the anti-BrexShit demo in London. A great many of the 'comments' rolling up on it are from Pro-BrexShitters, and a considerable number of those proclaim that they 'voted for democracy', and that anyone who disagrees with them is a 'traitor' who should be forced to leave the UK,

Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it.


So in this thread, in any exchange between me and thee chum it would appear that it was YOU who started the name calling. Mind you maybe the above IS YOU treating others with respect - wouldn't surprise me for one second.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 01:44 AM

"When people give me shit, they get it back. Start behaving like a civilised human being, and you'll get the same in return."

Take a good long look a long way back I tried what you suggest above and with those on this forum it did not seem to make the slightest bit of difference, so I adopted the stance that you yourself outline in your first sentence above. As you go on to say - "I don't give a damn."

When people come out with complete and utter crap - such as bills being passed through Parliament without "scrutiny" or "approval" and expect others to swallow it I will challenge them and pull them up on their ill-informed and incorrect statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, plenty of new jobs, Al. A million on zero hours. Five million self-employed, largely bogus (aka your employer no longer pays sick pay, holiday pay, maternity pay, your stamp...). Hundreds of thousands on fake apprenticeships on half the minimum wage. Loads more working for wankers like Mike Ashley who docks your pay if the bus was five minutes late and who has people to check on how many times you've been for a piss. Loads more on short hours. I know couples who are both in full-time work who can hardly afford to rent a modest two-bed house on an estate here in Cornwall, the poorest area of England. We didn't lose those industries, Al. They were deliberately thrown away by Thatcher so that she could establish her yuppie spiv economy with no-one keeping an eye on what the spivs were up to. And just look where that got us in 2008.

A really serious question or two, Al. If there are so many spiffin' new jobs, can you explain why our economic growth is less than half of that of the eurozone and the worst of the G7? Can you explain why the productivity of this country refuses to take off?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM

you don't get it. industries aren't like maggie thatcher said, a shopping basket and if theres threepence off you buy from someone else.

they are interdependant. when you lost the coal. you lost the steel.. you lost the mining equipment manufacturing - we were world leaders in that. you lost huge swathes of transport. huge reasons for running trains.

of course our competitors could sell better things cheaper - try and buy a cheap car now though. of course you always tell your competitor that his product is no good, and the thing to do is go out of business. and if you've got the newspapers on your side and a hatred of the unions, some daft bastards will believe you.

membership of the eu just means more stagnation and diminution of our industries. go for it if thats what you want for your kids and grandkids. of course there lots of new jobs Steve. fries with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:00 PM

He's on late-night booze mode again, SPB. Worry not. An analyst would be able to write a whole thesis on his hysterical insecurities. Your post is spot on. Unfortunately, no leaver will admit that they voted leave on racist grounds now that they have had quite a long time to rationalise their "decision" to us.

Here's what's happened so far.

EU citizens are either leaving in droves or deciding not to come here at all. Why? Because they have heard about the hate crimes and the hostility towards "outsiders." If they come here they will endure severe job insecurity from now on, if they can get a job at all, not to speak of vilification from brainless xenophobes. They'd be mad to come here/stay here! But no worries! There are LOADS of trained-up skilled BRITS who can step into the breach! British jobs for British workers, old boy! The Empire strikes back!


NOT!!

The CBI are shitting themselves and the FTSE companies won't sign Theresa's letter. They know that they can't make it without those EU workers. Theresa can't make it without undemocratic Henry VIII laws, a dirty deal with a bunch of near-fascists and an unconstitutional attempt to stuff Commons committees with Tories. Meanwhile, the EU bigwigs, who have come to realise that, by the day of brexit, the UK will be an economic basket case (we're more than half way there already by every measure), they'll be a damn sight better off with us out, are laughing at the absolute buffoon who we've put in charge of brexit. Fifteen months on, less than eighteen to go, progress? Nil or backwards!

We're half-way down the skyscraper in freefall, but why look at the tarmac below when the little puffy clouds look so nice!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM

Well Shaw you clearly demonstrate your grasp of how the real world operates is sadly lacking. Less time in the classroom and more time experiencing reality would have probably helped you. Sadly not a vision Shaw but economic reality.If you cannot compete with challengers overseas on cost, where are you going to sell all this excess steel, ships and whatever else heavy engineering used to provide for export. Do you think sticking a union jack on the item suddenly makes it sell? You live in a dreamworld of little pink socialists, where everyday is sunshine and roses.

SPB-Cooperator. was not "do you really believe" a former hit by the Spice Girls? Interesting change of lyrics. Is that some sort of political statement?


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