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BS: brexit matters

David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 05:17 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 05:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 17 - 05:02 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 04:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 17 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 04:55 AM
Teribus 14 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 04:33 AM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM
Teribus 14 Sep 17 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 03:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 07:34 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 07:32 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 03:32 PM
David Carter (UK) 13 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:09 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 03:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 02:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 01:17 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 12:04 PM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 11:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 09:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 08:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:31 AM

What is more, Teribus completely fails to address the huge benefits of Free Movement for our young people, increased opportunities to work and study, improve their knowledge and cultural understanding. The argument against is entirely bogus. The arguments for are compelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM

From the Guardian, a month before the referendum.

"The Office of National Statistics says that while the numbers of EU workers in Britain has risen by 700,000 since 2013, they are outnumbered by the extra one million Britons who have gone into employment in the same period. The number of British citizens working in the UK labour force is now at the near-record level of 28 million. That compares with 3 million foreign nationals.

As the economist Jonathan Portes has pointed out, it is not a zero-sum game in which there are only a fixed number of jobs to go round: "It's true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can't take that job – but it doesn't mean he or she won't find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration."

HMRC figures also show that EU migrants more than pay their way. Those who arrived in Britain in the last four years paid £2.54bn more in income tax and national insurance than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013-14. The Office of Budget Responsibility has estimated that their labour contribution is helping to grow the economy by an additional 0.6% a year...

...The Uk Statistics Authority also stresses that the number of people in work is not the same as the number of jobs in the economy. The ONS figures are estimates of the numbers of people in employment, so it is nonsense to talk about them showing "foreigners taking British jobs". They also stress that the figures do not reflect new migration, since they only cover those migrants who come to work, and some of those newly employed may well have been in the UK for some time.

What about the claim that they are depressing wages, particularly for the low-paid?

The most recent research from the centre for economic performance at the London School of Economics says "the areas of the UK with large increases in EU immigration did not suffer greater falls in the jobs and pay of UK-born workers. The big falls in wages after 2008 are due to the global financial crisis and a weak economic recovery, not to immigration."

Several studies have shown a small negative effect of migration on the wages of low-skilled workers in certain sectors in certain parts of the country, particularly care workers, shop assistants, and restaurant and bar workers. The effect has been measured at less than 1% over a period of eight years.

The LSE's Jonathan Wadsworth said: "The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a "necessary evil" that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit."



If you're too impatient or blinkered to read that, or think that everything in the Guardian is automatically a pile of poo, the bulk of it is utterly factual. Admittedly it's about 16 months out of date by now but it confronts arguments used that persuaded people to vote leave. What emerges is that:

Migrant workers do not take British workers' jobs.

Migrant workers do not "drive wages down."

Migrant workers do not overload public services.

Migrant workers actually create extra jobs by coming here.

Migrant workers make a significant net contribution to the economy and are in no way a financial burden to the country. In fact, they contribute significantly to our economic growth. We could do with a bit more of that.

The leave campaign was largely predicated on "taking back control of our borders." The facts show how bogus that argument was. We were being lied to.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

That last post went prematurely - sorry. I meant to edit it but I won't bother now. It's from UNISON's website.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

Introduction: migrant workers in the UK

Migrant workers are people who come from other countries to work in the UK. Migrant workers include seasonal workers, full-time and part-time employees, and contract or self-employed workers.

Registering for a national insurance number

To work legally in the UK all migrant workers, including those from the European Union, must register for a national insurance (NI) number. You can start work before you have an NI number, but you will be charged emergency tax until you have one.

Pay rates for migrant workers

As a migrant worker you are protected by the same laws that protect other workers in the UK. You should receive equal pay to British workers doing the same work.

The national minimum wage

The national living wage and national minimum wage set minimum hourly rates that employers must legally pay workers in the UK.

Check your pay rate

The national living wage and minimum wage does not apply if you are genuinely self-employed.

If you are being paid per piece of work you finish rather than per hour, the total that you are paid must at least be equal to being paid the national minimum wage for the hours it takes you to do the work.

Payslips

You should receive a payslip either before or on the day you are paid. This should clearly show your total pay before tax and any deductions, as well as the amount you are actually being paid (your take-home pay). All deductions must be clearly listed.

Deductions

Tax and national insurance (NI) will be taken from your pay. How much is deducted depends on how much you earn.

No other deductions can be taken from your wages, unless they are written in your contract, or you have agreed to them with your employer before they are made. Any agreement must be confirmed in writing.

Even if you have agreed to a deduction, your employer cannot take off money so that you end up being paid less than the minimum wage, except for accommodation. Even for accommodation there is a limit to how much your employer can take from your pay.

If you think your employer is deducting too much for accommodation then call the Pay and Work Rights Helpline on 0800 917 2368 or speak to your UNISON rep.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:17 AM

Please don't react to their "sophisticated wit and cutting edge repartee"
Dave
Iains has made it quite clear that'
s exactly what they want.
Still plenty more to discuss on brexit without hem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:16 AM

If you wish to discuss the immigrants who work here permanently for UK employers, Bill Woodcock, you are not talking about those seasonal workers who work for yer Lincolnshire farmers. They are not immigrants. You conflated them with real immigrants. Not only that, they are not the people "driving wages down." Those seasonal workers have no control over what they get paid. It's those gangmasters and the employers here who collude with them who drive wages down, and it's illegal if the pay is less than the minimum wage. Any worker, seasonal or not, migrant or not, who works in this country must by law be paid the minimum wage at least. The only allowable deductions from their wages that can reduce them to below the minimum wage are for supplied accommodation and there are limits on what can be deducted for that. If there are employers or gangmasters or whoever who cause workers to receive less, they are BREAKING THE LAW. This whole discussion about migrant workers is bogus unless we home in on the real culprits. Why don't we ask why the law isn't being enforced? It is within the government's gift to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:02 AM

Of course we should realise that the terrible twins do not indulge in childish insults. It is sophisticated wit and cutting edge repartee when they do it. Makes them feel better about themselves I suppose.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:59 AM

"SHAW,"
Is it totally beyond your capabilities not to fuck up yet another thread with your arrogant bullying behaviour Teribus
Do you not realise that people regard your strutting and posturing with contempt?
Please give it a rest
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:58 AM

What a surprise. Inane but consistent :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:55 AM

"Getting a few rather hysterical people here. Need to take a few deep breaths and calm down. Good to see you behaving as normal. Nothing sensible to offer so just throw out a few insults in the hope the forum fairy will close this thread as well."

From: Iains - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:41 PM

Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM

Look further down the thread SHAW, the subject under discussion did centre around seasonal agricultural workers. Of course paying attention to what others have to say is not one of your strongpoints. Same thing applies in other types of work. The EU has not dictated a standard hourly minimum wage - member states would not tolerate that so it is perfectly legal to get contacts for low wages signed in one country for work in another as I described.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:33 AM

Who says we're only talking about seasonal workers, WOODCOCK? Free movement involves a hell of a lot more than just them. Not only that, if they come to the UK for seasonal work only they are not "immigrants."


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM

Getting a few rather hysterical people here. Need to take a few deep breaths and calm down. Good to see you behaving as normal. Nothing sensible to offer so just throw out a few insults in the hope the forum fairy will close this thread as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:42 AM

To Shaw & Mr Carter,

Here is how it works. The immigrant seasonal workers do not work directly for a British employer. They are employed by a labour gang boss on contracts signed in their home countries, where that contract is enforceable in law. Gang boss has a contract to supply labour at legal wage limit plus a margin - otherwise the British party would be breaking the law. Gang boss pockets the money pays out the amount agreed with the worker then deducts travel and accommodation at extortionate rates. THAT Mr Carter is what your EU freedom of movement allows.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:36 AM

I agree this is what happens Dave, but these people really mean what they say - their value is that they represent the values that decide things like Brexit and deals with shady regimes
Time to mobe on and have a sensible discussion aubot Brexit without the name calling and all too often strutting arrogance we have to deal with here - and not just on this thread
RIP to all this, eh lads?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM

It is just a ploy to get the thread closed, Steve. They do it when they have nothing but insults left and then accuse others of doing the same. As soon as a moderator sees that this has turned into yet another platform for playground taunts it will go the way of all the others.

Pound to a penny one gobshite or the other will respond in a completely expected way ;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM

Every time I read a post from Iains, especially one of his "Jimmy" or "Shaw" ones, I think to myself that I've seen that somewhere before. And of course I have! It's precisely what Teribus has been trying on for years. Iains has no mind of his own. He's latched on, totally unoriginally, to Teribus's modus operandi. Now why would anyone want to do that! Gosh, if there was a trick cyclist in the house, I'd ask him!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:34 PM

"If all the bakers dropped "
If all the Bankers, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:32 PM

Back to my over-emotional post
I've become tired and rather bored with being called "anti-British" even "rcist" by Keith, Tribus and Ake, because of my attitude to British politicians and what they have done to my home country
I don't think I have ever come across three people who hate the ordinary British people as much as they do - scroungers. greedy - malingerers - bed-blockers- stupid - lazy, ruiners of the economy, begrudging and jealous............. you name it, these people have accused the British people of being it, over and over and over again.
And now we have Iains - with his little more than a 'Cap'n Flint parrot-like repeating the insults of Long-John Silver Terinbus
"Hatred and contempt" sums up the attitude of these people, without whom we wouldn't have lights or homes or running water.... or the wherewithal of everyday living.
If all the bakers dropped dead tomorrow, life would go on more or less as normal
If the same thing happened to our tradesmen we'd all be up to our necks in shit, stumbling around in the dark
Personally, I am proud to be included in their hatred - I would take it as a slight if I wasn't
I much prefer the company of those they hate,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:32 PM

Heartily agreed, David.

This "armchair socialist" was brought up in a slum for the first ten years of my life. I had planty of experiences to keep me grounded, thank you Iains. You need to stop copying Teribus. I told you that you come across as his puppydog. Like him, you make assumptions about people who you've never met and know about only from what you read here. That isn't safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM

Freedom of Movement is one of the pillars of European Democracy. Its our right of Free Movement, which the likes of you Ake, want to take away from us, and our children and grandchildren.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM

Plenty of Typos there for you turds to feed from
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:09 PM

"Just continue living in your deluded bubble. "
Unncessary and nasty indeed
I was brought up on council housing estateds and worked for a living - I am now livin g on a staaate pension with no oyther income
We buried a sister earlier this year - one of twins 9 years younger than me
Both left school with good marks but were unable to get higher education because it wasn't available to us in those days and my parents would not have been able to afford keepin them
They went to work in a factory - labouring for a third less than the maen were getting for the same job
Mora - the one who died was a stacker in a warehouse and dri=ove a fork-lift truck as part of her job
Both of them earned a pittance as unskilled workers.
Five years ago Moira had a fall and broke her femur which led to a mini-stroke and kidney infection, which eventually demanded dialysis
Her treatment caused another infection which needed hospitalisation - which Ake and Teribus dexscribed as "oh my sore back" and scrounging off the state to pay for holidays"
She went blind bust was assured it could be cured by an operation (which she never got because the waiting lists were too long)
Eventually, she had her toes removed, but due to overworked, underpaid and underappreciated hospital staff, the operation was botched and the removal of the leg became necessary - she gave up, demanded we let her die
She died in early July
When you scum talk about "sucking on the public teat" and "bubbles" and "breaking the law" take a look at how the real world is for the majority of Britain's population
HOW FUCKING DARE YOUR, YOU INHUMAN PRiCKS?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:08 PM

Well I suppose we have to conclude from your posts that you had bloody awful teachers, Iains. You certainly weren't sucking on any of their teats.

One thing that we teachers come to realise is that the real bloody idiots of this society are the people who don't see the value of the education they had at school. There are two egregious examples on this forum, Iains and Teribus, both completely pig-ignorant of what being a teacher entails and both as rough in their manners and demeanour as a vulture's crutch.

And fer chrissake, Al, if you really think akenaton had it right in that post, then there's no bloody hope for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM

that's an unpleasant and unnecessary thing to say Iains.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 02:21 PM

Toldy you Steve - no response, just rantt
Jim Carroll

"A very peculiar post, that's for sure."
Nurse - the screens !!
Jm Carroll

Strange. I can understand perfectly what Ake is saying. As the economic cycle progresses job oportunities expand and contract as a direct response. Shortage of labour drives wages up, surfeit drives them down.
The unskilled at the bottom of the heap suffer the most grief. This is a harsh reality but anyone sucking on the public teat like teachers are well insulated from such facts of life. Just continue living in your deluded bubble. You probably also support that maniac Len McCluskey with his threats to break the law. You armchair socialists have not got a clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 01:59 PM

are you sure its not you two that's got it wrong? with the best will in the world, what Ake says isn't a rant. that is really how it is in many parts of the country. i'm happy for you that you have missed seeing poor people living in desperate conditions - willing to work for less than a living wage, work on the black, work for gangers, work on commission....its always been half the economy of this country. that's what the unions were made to combat - and its why they're not allowed in many industries.

you really do need a reality check.

i disagree with Strolling Johnny/Backwoodsman about Brexit - but I'm pretty sure he will tell you how the hard drugs became the mainstay of the economy when the mines went in the north notts area. working men became the lumpenproletariat - willing to work in out of the way factories for a hundred quid a week to blow on a weekend. things really were that bad, and into this hell broth came the economic refugees from every corner of the globe.

if you lived somewhere where this didn't happen count yourself bloody lucky - but be assured it happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 01:17 PM

"A very peculiar post, that's for sure."
Nurse - the screens !!
Jm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM

A very peculiar post, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM

Toldy you Steve - no response, just rantt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:04 PM

That's your trouble Steve,
you believe in myth.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but we live in a capitalist society you and the other faux lefties vote for the continuation of that type of society, so don't come whining to me that it's "just not fair".

Nobody said it would be "fair"....it isn't "fair" ....it will never be "fair"......   in fact the system would collapse if everything was "fair".
I could take you to areas where most of the folks haven't worked for generations, places where the "drug culture" and criminality are the local economy.......Fair, don't talk to me about what's not fair, you seem to be quite comfortable on your pension reasonable lifestyle, think yourself fucking lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM

Nothing to do with any UK Govt Labour or Conservative.

"Freedom of Movement" is one of the pillars of the European Dictatorship.....whichever government is in power in the UK must accept Free Movement or leave.
Thankfully the people of Great Britain had the sense to vote in favour of leaving the EU and regaining control over the affairs of the United Kingdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM

""EU dictatorship." "
Don't feed a troll who ignores facts and uses these threads as a soapbox for his racism Steve
He will keep putting this extremism up and ignoring responses as long as he is fed "the oxygen of publicity"
He knows as well as the rest of us that there are no jobs to accommodate mythical training schemes#The Government has admitted that the problem lies with the education system not turning out applicants and that is what needs addressing, not the influx of immigrants who arriving with skills and are essential to the economy
Immigrants are essentially filling in a gap, not taking training places
HORSE'S MOUTH CONFESSION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM

"You can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for not paying the minimum wage - they never have. Its just that now there are people who will work for even less."

If they won't pay the minimum wage they are breaking the law. If they deliberately pay a desperate man less than someone else for doing the same job, they are unprincipled. So you seem to be saying that you can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for being lawless and unprincipled. Well I can, hastening only to add that I'm sure it isn't all or even most of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:16 AM

There is no "EU dictatorship." All the countries of the EU are democracies that must operate under the rule of law. This country has agreed to over 95% of thousands of EU laws and directives, disputing very few, and has played a major part in drawing them up. For an unwieldy organisation consisting of 28 countries containing half a billion people, the degree of harmony is amazing. There is no little man in a Brussels bunker telling us how long our courgettes should be. And I'm a very simple man, as you all know. So let me repeat. The person who pays the wages is the employer. Subject only to the law of the land, the employer is the man who decides what wages to pay. Yes the government of the country can have policies that make it harder for him to pay higher wages or employ more people. But this government has made it easy for employers to shirk responsibilities such as paying sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay and national insurance. This government has made it easier to employ people then tell them there's no work today, tough luck, try again tomorrow and you won't be paid. This government has made it easier for employers to offload workers without reason and with little notice, without fear of redress. This government has emasculated trade unions, making it next to impossible for them to step in to protect workers who are under any kind of threat. It's called "the flexible labour market" and its aims are to keep employees firmly in their places by maximising job insecurity, to keep wages low and to persuade us that there have never been more jobs in the history of the nation. What they fail to explain is why growth in this country is the weakest in the G7 and EU and why productivity has been bumping along the bottom for years. Funny, that. Not one person goes to work wanting less money. Blaming immigration for "driving down wages" is unfair, bonkers, xenophobic and often downright racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM

its a bit like Monkey World - have you seen that programme. One day - all the troupe ganged on old Rodney who had been the leader of the troupe. They found old Rodney's mangled body and a new younger guy had become the troupe leader.

The late wonderful Jim Cronin ( founder of Monkeyworld) was explaining it. He said - There are no villains. There are no bad guys - its just what monkeys do.

You can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for not paying the minimum wage - they never have. Its just that now there are people who will work for even less. Irish people used to come over. Bob Geldof was in Boston at United Canners when he was a a young 'un. the wages were always shit. when i was a kid i used to pick daffodils and beans for two bob an hour.

there are no bad guys. its just what monkeys do. the trouble is that there is widespread ignorance about how people in different parts of the country live.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM

The fault lies with the EU.   The economic policy of Free movement of Labour drives down wages, stops proper training programmes for UK citizens.

Of course the bosses will use cheap labour that is why Free Movement is an ECONOMIC policy! Of course immigrants will come here in their millions, the money they earn is worth three times as much in Poland or Romania!

Neither of these groups can be blamed for working the system, the fault lies with the EU dictatorship and the sooner we get out the better.....Deal or no deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:15 AM

The answer actually is very simple. The only people who can drive down wages are the people who pay the wages. There are not many unskilled/temporary/seasonal workers, especially if they have come to find work to support their families overseas, who have the choice to say to an employer, stuff your low wages, I won't work for you, go and find a Brit instead. Blaming EU workers for driving down wages is xenophobic and was a mainstay of the racist brexit campaign. Just try to remember that we are talking about large numbers of people who are not organised to fight back and who the Tories have made sure enjoy no employment security. The Tories refer to them as the flexible labour market. Us lefties refer to them as vulnerable human beings. And where they come from is immaterial.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

"I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour"
Assume nothing - I mean that employers are willing to use immigrant labour o drive down wages and always have done, the Irish famine being typical
It lies within theremit of the government to establish a minimum living wage, they don't, which leaves the field open for those inclined that way to blame immigrants
Government statements have actually stressed the contribution of immigrants, but have ignored the solution of a living wage
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

"I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour"
Assume nothing - I mean that employers are willing to use immigrant labour o drive down wages and always have done, the Irish famine being typical
It lies within theremit of the government to establish a minimum living wage, they don't, which leaves the field open for those inclined that way to blame immigrants
Government statements have actually stressed the contribution of immigrants, but have ignored the solution of a living wage
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.
I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour. The answer is not that simple.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:33 AM

Sorry Nigel - that's what I meant to say - my mistake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM

Working people are now treated worse that the slaves in the southern states who may have been ill treated beaten and abused on a daily basis but at least they were recognised as valuable financial assets by their masters - now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.

I can't agree that British working people are treated worse than slaves.
They may be valued less (which is what your comment goes on to suggest) but that is not the same as being "treated worse".
Who, in Britain gets beaten on a daily basis?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:15 AM

"Many black Americans would find that dreadfully offensive, and i wouldn't blame them."
Are you really suggesting that British workers are valued higher than someone who has been prchased as an investment - which is the point I was making Al?
Convince me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM

i don't think people are treated worse than slaves in the antebellum confederate states of the USA.

i agree with a lot of what you say - but really that's wrong on so many levels. And i think you know it is.

Many black Americans would find that dreadfully offensive, and i wouldn't blame them.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM

All true, Jim. What Thatcher did was to make spiv culture permanently respectable. The financial institutions are behaving today exactly as they were doing up to 2008. There WILL BE another crash. It's just a matter of when. And the icing on the cake for us is the upcoming brexit catastrophe. Thank your lucky stars, baby boomers like me. Nobody's ever had it so good and never will again.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 06:27 AM

"In the months before the Big Bang, the average number of trades in London-listed shares was 20,000, amounting to around £700m in value.
This year, the average has been more than 45-times as many: 976,000 with an average of £5bn worth of equities changing hands every day.
The changes introduced during the Thatcher years are ongoing."
This is th truest word anybody has written
Unfortunately they fail to mention that all these advances have been made at the expense of working people (many of whom are not working).
Thatcher divided Britain sharply into haves and have-nots, cutting adrift whole swathes of Britain to live in poverty - two of her greatest cons were turning homes into "investments" and respectabalising greed.
Sure - investments have risen and the haves now have far more -go look at the gap and tell me that is not the case.
We have no industry and workers are treated as expendable - forced to take anything on offer or starve and in doing so destroying any stake that had in the country
Working people are now treated worse that the slaves in the southern states who may have been ill treated beaten and abused on a daily basis but at least they were recognised as valuable financial assets by their masters - now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.
The largest percentage export in Britain today is money, which benefits only those in finance
If a firm avoids paying billions in tax ther are regarded as 'successful' - if a worker fiddles a few quid out of his or her tax they are criminals.
You want to see a lifelike depiction of life in Britain today, go see 'I Daniel Blake' - if you don't go away angry, you are not human.
I really don't understand what king of people can accept what is happening today without comment
There y'ar lads - another "rant" for you
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

"The issue of the existing border is another long running sore. It is in everyones interest to have a peaceful resolution whatever the final decision may be."
I've saidd that a hundred times Iains - I've also pointed out that Brexit has put that in grave danger
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM

"Competition, innovation and globalisation were unleashed on London, breaking up the "cartel" and smashing into the "fortress of protectionism"

Fine talk from yer man. But another way of putting it is that the City was put into the hands of spivs who no-one was watching.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM

its getting increasingly opaque.

i don't see why anyone should get angry with anyone else for not agreeing with or understanding the reasons for a point of view on this subject.

its SO complicated.


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Mudcat time: 23 September 10:38 AM EDT

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