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Origins: Molly Malone

DigiTrad:
MOLLY MALONE
MOLLY MALONE (2)


Related threads:
Lyr Add: The real Molly Malone (6)
Lyr Req: Yokohama Mama (to tune of 'Molly Malone') (9)
Lyr Req: Molly Malone Ballad (not the common one) (17)
Lyr Req: a different Molly Malone (19)
Molly Malone (8)
Lyr Req: Juanita Suarez (parody of Molly Malone) (12)
Who Wrote Molly Malone? (11)
Lyr Req: Molly Malone (20)
Tune Req: Susan Reed: Cockles & Mussels? (22)
Tune Req: Molly Malone (for piano) (9)
Tune Req: Molly Malone (6)
Add'l Verses Req: Molly Malone (3)
Tune Req: Molly Malone (tab) (2)
Lyr Req: Molly Malone (parody by Allan Sherman) (1)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Molly Malone (arrangement)


Kat 17 Dec 99 - 03:47 PM
Kat 17 Dec 99 - 03:52 PM
Bruce O. 17 Dec 99 - 03:55 PM
Bert 17 Dec 99 - 04:00 PM
Diesel 18 Dec 99 - 07:06 AM
Kat 18 Dec 99 - 07:54 AM
Big Mick 18 Dec 99 - 10:38 AM
Brendy 19 Dec 99 - 02:01 AM
Kat 19 Dec 99 - 07:39 AM
Lyle 19 Dec 99 - 11:09 PM
Kat 19 Dec 99 - 11:29 PM
Brendy 19 Dec 99 - 11:41 PM
Big Mick 20 Dec 99 - 12:11 AM
Brendy 20 Dec 99 - 01:01 AM
Áine 20 Dec 99 - 09:08 AM
Brendy 21 Dec 99 - 03:38 AM
NSC 21 Dec 99 - 03:53 AM
NSC 21 Dec 99 - 03:54 AM
Kat 21 Dec 99 - 09:37 AM
Martin Ryan 21 Dec 99 - 11:07 AM
NSC 22 Dec 99 - 03:25 AM
lamarca 22 Dec 99 - 02:06 PM
JedMarum 22 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM
Martin Ryan 22 Dec 99 - 06:34 PM
tipper 22 Dec 99 - 07:03 PM
tipper 22 Dec 99 - 07:11 PM
diesel 23 Dec 99 - 10:09 AM
Kat 24 Dec 99 - 12:20 AM
paddymac 24 Dec 99 - 12:32 AM
diesel 24 Dec 99 - 11:32 AM
Seonaid 24 Dec 99 - 12:04 PM
John in Brisbane 25 Feb 00 - 08:05 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Feb 00 - 10:42 AM
Molly Malone 25 Feb 00 - 04:40 PM
Mary in Kentucky 25 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 25 Sep 01 - 07:55 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Sep 01 - 10:51 AM
marymarymary 25 Sep 01 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM
IanC 25 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM
robomatic 25 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 25 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM
IanC 25 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM
MartinRyan 25 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM
MartinRyan 25 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM
Mr Red 25 Sep 01 - 06:37 PM
Snuffy 25 Sep 01 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 27 Sep 01 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,ALJMAJ@JUNO.COM 11 Apr 02 - 09:59 PM
Joe Offer 12 Apr 02 - 02:01 AM
masato sakurai 12 Apr 02 - 03:33 AM
Dave Bryant 12 Apr 02 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 12 Apr 02 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,gemma 24 Mar 04 - 12:26 PM
GUEST 25 Mar 04 - 04:44 AM
GUEST 06 Mar 05 - 10:08 PM
Lady Hillary 06 Mar 05 - 10:49 PM
masato sakurai 06 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM
masato sakurai 06 Mar 05 - 11:39 PM
GUEST,leeneia 07 Mar 05 - 10:21 AM
Lighter 07 Mar 05 - 05:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Nov 05 - 02:43 PM
Dave Hanson 30 Sep 06 - 04:19 AM
Fergie 30 Sep 06 - 06:25 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 05 Oct 06 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 05 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 05 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,as a child 29 Apr 07 - 04:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Apr 07 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Bridgett 08 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM
Uncle_DaveO 08 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM
Don Firth 08 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 08 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM
Mysha 08 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Archie Caulfield 22 Aug 08 - 10:23 AM
Lighter 22 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM
GUEST 02 Mar 10 - 02:20 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 11 - 04:39 PM
saulgoldie 21 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM
saulgoldie 21 Jul 11 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Narelle 13 Mar 12 - 11:36 PM
MartinRyan 21 Feb 13 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,John Moulden 22 Feb 13 - 03:25 PM
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Subject: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:47 PM

Does anyone know the story behind the song, Molly Malone? Is it based on fact or fiction, any other information? Friend needs to know and I am also curious.

Thanks and blessings. Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:52 PM

SORRY FOLKS, I meant to write history OF Molly Malone, not For. I really don't think she cares, but never the less, Tony and I need it, not poor, dead, Molly.

Thanks again Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:55 PM

There's something on another thread, but I can't recall the title of it. There's a statue of her in Dublin, and Jack Campin (Edinburgh environs, has website on Scots tunes +) said it's recently known as that of 'the tart with the cart', but didn't cite any historical evidence that she was a prostitute, too.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Bert
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 04:00 PM

to think we used to sing

....and she wheels her wheelbarrow
though Wembley and Harrow....


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Diesel
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 07:06 AM

Don't know the history of Molly,but will try find out for you as I'm rather interested in it myself.

I do know that the term "tart with the cart" does not refer to Molly per se ! but however is a reflection on Dublin wit. Many the monument gets jibes in such satire-like prose. The Anna Livia fountain in O'Connell Street was known as "the flussi in the jacussi" or the now removed millenium clock from the liffey as "the time in the slime".Such is the humour !

Diesel - in Dublin


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 07:54 AM

Thanks Diesel, I sure can't find a thing. Such a lovely song must have a bit of history behind it.

Blessings Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 10:38 AM

Bert, don't you even try to appropriate our lady of the bosoms to England................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I recall hearing, about the time of the Dublin Millenium celebration, that there was a raging debate over what Molly really died of. She was a real person and her death records exist. Some black hearted blaggard suggested that she was a prostitute and died of venereal disease. Those who staunchly defend the reputation of she of the wonderful cleavage believe it was probably of food poisoning from eating tainted oysters, as the beds had been polluted pretty badly in those days.

WEMBLEY AND HARROW, INDEED........HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 02:01 AM

No, apparently, she doubled as a prostitute. But of course that was a term used, and still is, by people who view a woman with 'looser morals' than themselves. Hence the 'tart with the cart'.
There is many an opinion, and many's the pint has been drunk debating this very question, but popular thinking has it that the 'fever' referred to as as the cause of her sad and untimely demise, incurable as it was, was non other than the dreaded 'pox' (syphilis).
As mortality rates of the time went, in working class Dublin, it was odds on that it was the 'pox'.

But then that's wat pints are for!!

Oh! barman........?

Breandán


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 07:39 AM

Thank U both, Big Mick and Brendan, but I would like to find some of her personal history, like birth date and place where she grew up. Anything that would put some electric to her life.

She was well known enough for someone to write the song, there must have been more to her than being a monger. I somehow cannot believe she was also a prostitute. I can just imagine all the work involved as a monger. Get up before dawn, go get fish from pier, walk it back to the market pushing a full cart, then sell and clean up afterward. No, she did not have the time or the energy for the 'street' work. I perfer to believe that our dear Molly was a hard-working, God fearing girl who just became very ill and passed on. But there was a bit of living beyone the fish cart. That's what I want to know about.

Blessings all and thanks again. Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Lyle
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 11:09 PM

Don't know how much help these will be, but at least they are interesting!

Emmanuel Kehoe writes: "Cockles and Mussels" is a dirge for an 18th century fishmonger (almost certainly an historical figure) who died in one of the cholera epidemics that regularly swept the city of Dublin. Molly possibly was a part-time bawd and the song is alluded to with sexual innuendo by Leopold Bloom, the hero of James Joyce's Ulysses. The doleful ballad, invested with bizarre brio by football crowds, has become Dublin's anthem. A life-size bronze statue of Molly pushing a handcart and wearing a rather revealing dress stands across the road from Trinity College, Dublin. Dubliners, who have taken to giving their statues rhyming nick-names refer to it as "The Tart with The Cart".

Unfortunately, I have this with a copy of Moly Malone, and I didn't annotate where I got it from! Sorry.

But here are two other sites that are interesting, and someday I'll learn about that "blue clicky thing."

Irish Historical Mysteries has an interesting story, and can be found at:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/index.htm

Irish Historical Mysteries: Molly Malone Take #2 also is interesting, and can be found at:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/molly2.htm

Hope this helps a bit!

Lyle


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 11:29 PM

Thanks heaps Lyle, I can't wait to go and check them out. I will write more after reading.

What U have given is a great deal more than I have ever been able to find.

I just can't believe that she was a 'loose' lady as the words of the song refer to her is such loving, tender terms. Nowhere do the lyrics degrade her in that manor.

Blessings Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 11:41 PM

I think that was the point I was making, Kat.
A 'loose lady' is a term thought up by other people.
From my understanding, and don't get me wrong, I only know of the period history, not hers. But any woman who was 'freeer' in her relationships with men was termed a prostitute, and, after a long day a-trading her wares, what could be nicer except a couple of bottles of stout, a few gins, and a bit of company in the bed to stave off the lonliness: not a prostitute.
Interesting references Lyle. I had never turned much thought towards her, except to refuse to sing the song in traditional circles, but I will check them out later.

B.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Dec 99 - 12:11 AM

Awwwwwrrrrriiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhttttttteeeeeee then................all of youse bowsies what would impugn the reputation of the lovely Molly Malone, I want you all out behind the pub............now. Not one at a time, I want all of youse. My buddy, Paddy Reilly, he of Rathcoole, will be standing by to pour a drop of the holy water, run once troo the kidneys, on your sorry selfs for suggesting such a t'ing. Out we go..............


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Dec 99 - 01:01 AM

Micheál, Micheál, easy on the bold type there a chara.
That's not the way to resolve our differences in this englightened society of ours.
I'll tell you what. I'm a wee Northerner that does not have the same idea on Molly Malone as others particularly have. I have nothing against the song, I just don't love it.
I don't think it's place is in a session of traditional music. The outside world assosiate Irish music with the Dubliners, The Pogues. Well the outside world on this side of the pond anyway.
My heart has been nearly broken because of the song.
When I go back to Ireland, I need to. I need to sit and play the tunes with people who are sensitive to the music.
I need to discuss and sing songs other than those which define Irish music in my part of the world. I try to do this twice or three times a year. Because it is too important to my general well being and sanity. That's why I do it.
This is also, I suppose, why I joined the Mudcat. Here we have a place where even discussing WhiskEy in the Jar, Molly Malone and the likes can be fun, and not reduced to the "Play a good Irish song like Molly Malone" when I'm bustin my ass singing other, and better songs about the social conditions in all of Ireland, not just Dublin.
Take the fists down Mick, and you over there drop that ashtray. Lets write a song about it instead.
We could set up a Molly Malone commity to investigate allegations that she actually took payment for services rendered.
That she did this on several occasions.
They could also comfirm or deny doctors reports to whit Molly Malone, spinster, of address unknown, inner city Dublin, Ireland, did secumb after long illness of Cholera, Tuberculosis, Diptheria, Syphilis, or other agent unknown.
Having gathered all relevant documents, and after interviewing any surving eye-witnesses, we could form a sub-commity to write the report, submit it to your MP. or Congressman, who will propose the bill, which will make the law, which will come in force, which will forbid anyone to to challenge the fact.

Love to All.....B


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Áine
Date: 20 Dec 99 - 09:08 AM

Big Mick or Brendy,

If you're interested, you can find the song in Irish here

Le meas, Áine


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 03:38 AM

Nice one Áine
I notice though, that the word 'fever' is literally translated. That's fine, but as I sit and think about this song, and I have done for a few days now, the waters just get muddier.
It reminds me of the UFO sightings that you hear about, that are proven by a very shakey hand video recorder that's doing it's best to cast even further doubt on the claim.
Nice translation isn't it?
B.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: NSC
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 03:53 AM

Frank Harte has made a recording of this fine traditional Dublin song which epitomises the only way it should be sung.

I recommend his singing to anyone and it should and must be sung in traditional circles. It is a traditional song.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: NSC
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 03:54 AM

Incidentally she died in 1697 or thereabouts.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 09:37 AM

Thank U all so much for the information. It has been so much fun finding about one of Dublin's more famous characters. Lyle, I really enjoyed the Irish Historical Mysteries site. I suppose it is best that no real history has been written on her, this way we can create who she was as we would have had her be. ( I still think of her as a lily of the street people.)

Big Mick, thank U for springing to defend her. She is no doubt smiling on U for your chivalry. Thanks NSC, for your support of the singing of it in traditional circles. It is one of the most traditional ballads I know of. No party has ended that I have not been requested to sing it and it always brings the water up into the eyes of those listening. I love the melody and the tenderness of the words. It's a great song.

I wish you all a very happy, holy Christmas and a New Year filled with blessings, joy and good health. Remember the reason for the season, stay sober, please.

Love to all, God bless. Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 11:07 AM

NSC (Is that you in there George?!)

Any evidence for the 1697 date? BTW isn't this the one of which Frank Harte remaarked: "Don't judge a song by the company it keeps!" Or was that the "Spanish Lady"? --- and no chat about the latter's morals, either ...


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: NSC
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 03:25 AM

Martin,

I heard the date reference on a trad programme on RTE but I cannot remeber which one. I was on my way to or from Ennistymon the year Frank gave his wonderful lecture and he sang this at the beginning.

The way he roars Cockles and Mussels definitely makes you see her shouting from behind the barrow. Her morrels are of no concern to me. I love her.

Yes I think this is the song Frank was referring to.

George


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: lamarca
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 02:06 PM

I had the good fortune to hear Frank Harte at the Washington Irish Festival 2 years ago. He did sets on several stages; I went to hear him in our pseudo-"Pub" stage. He did a fine set, and got Karen Casey and Mairead ni Mhaonaigh up to sing songs they had learned from him, too. He ended his set by getting his granddaughter up on stage with him. She sat on his lap, and they sang "Molly Malone" together - another generation of Dublin singers carrying on that grand song.

Frank said something about singing which I've taken to heart - that you should learn and sings songs for the songs' sake. He sometimes has people ask him why he learns these long a capella ballads or historical songs, when they don't necessarily make good pub sing alongs or performance pieces. His reply is that he sings the songs because he loves them, they're a part of the tradition and the people who passed them down over the generations also sang them because they loved them, not for an audience or performance.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM

This has been a great thread! I have never known much about this song, that my Dad sang so often in my childhood, and that I have been singing also, for many years. I have played this song to a wide variety of audiences, and all respond to it ... all seem to know it, and many sing along - even in the Country bars. Thanks, all!


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 06:34 PM

LaMarca

Frank's version is great, alright!
That said, I'm still sceptical about the song's origins.Frank disclaimed all knowledge of them in the first edition of his "Songs of Dublin" - and I've never heard him say otherwise in recent years. I'll ask when next we meet.

And before anyone mutters darkly in their beer - I agree completely that the origins don't make a blind bit of difference to the quality of the song. I'm just curious!

Regards

p.s. George: The programme was probably in Pat Feely's series "The Song and the Story", of which I heard some but not all. Many were excellent - some were highly speculative, IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: tipper
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 07:03 PM

I had the good forturn to be in Frank Hart's class that in was giving at the week long gaelic roots festival held at Boston Collage,frank said 'the songs of the past are out there floating around and it takes someone to put a voice to it,to make it live on.Also 'those in power right the history, while those who suffer right the songs and Ireland has a lot of songs....any body else been to B.C. for gaelic roots


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: tipper
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 07:11 PM

Please forgive the spelling of right for wright and what ever else.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: diesel
Date: 23 Dec 99 - 10:09 AM

Kat I haven't forget ye, but I'm living here in Dublin and you think I can find out much about her - not a chance ! The corpo and various other groups have been asked - I'll keep digging but don't hold the breath waiting on this one ...........

Merry Christmas to all

Diesel


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 12:20 AM

Thanks Diesel. I think I have been very lucky to obtain what the others have given on Her. At least its a good start. I don't keep track of the Mudcat all the time and I miss so much. Wish I could spend more time here but work will not allow it.

I wish all a very happy, holy, & blessed holiday season and a New Year filled with love, joy, and good health.

Kat


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 12:32 AM

I don't think I would call Molly's statue "life-sized". Certainly not if you look at the paps of ana rubbed to such a lustrous sheen by thousands (at least) of tourists. Seems to me that one of Frank Harte's song books described her as an entirely mythological creature. A good wee bar bet is "Where is the statue?" I've had more than a few pints from folks who don't believe me when I tell them she stands on Grafton Street. Most tourists think Grafton Street is limited to the slope coming down from the green, but if you look closely at a good Dublin map you'll see that it extends 2 blocks northward from the foot of the slope, to include the location of the "Tart with the cart". Jeez, can't wait to get back.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: diesel
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 11:32 AM

Quite agree on the location of the statue being on Grafton Street.A book I read some time ago now for the leaving cert. was "A charwomans daughter" which gave some wonderful descripions of the city and its people at the turn of the century, it also put me straight on the winding Grafton street stopping at the doors/gates to Trinity. Wonderful book - I'ld recommend it.

rgds

James


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Seonaid
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 12:04 PM

This has been a great thread. I didn't realize Molly could be found in Gaelic -- great! Re Molly's moral reputation: There is a traditional association of fish and sex, based on olfactory considerations (if you don't understand, ask a sexually adventurous friend). Not much of a stretch to associate peddling a barrow full of actual marine creatures with the selling of something else entirely.


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Subject: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 08:05 AM

I have an old manuscript which attributes the composition of Cockles and Mussels to James Yorkston. I can verify the date of publication by Monday of next week. Can anyone shed any light on this please? Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 10:42 AM

John, if you look at the other thread that someone has refreshed you will note the history located at

Irish Mysteries - Molly Malone

Also, that history refers to this link of the original words

Original Lyrics


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Molly Malone
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 04:40 PM

Did someone call???

Ok, I always thought cockles and mussels meant something else altogether! If you look at it from a Bawdy Balladeer's perspective, the songs quite different.

(Shakespeare would be so proud!)


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM

If you're curious to see what the statue on Grafton Street looks like, here's a picture.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 07:55 AM

There's an article in the current issue of Irish Music Magazine with some research background on this one. I'll add details later.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:51 AM

Thanks Martin, that would be wonderful.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: marymarymary
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:28 AM

There is an interesting debunking of the Molly Malone story on this website. The song was apparently written and copyrighted by a man from Edinburgh in the late 1880's, and there are no references to *any* version of the song or the story before that time.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Ah, marymarymary, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Right - so, who else here remembers Dublin without the Tart Or the Floozie?

Pete


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: IanC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM

Mary...'s version looks about right. There's nothing in The Bodleian collection and (oddly) there's nothing in Levy, but The British Library catalogue has two entries for 19th Century versions.

"Cockles & Mussels" Song [begins: "Of all merry blades"] Geoghegan, Joseph B 1876.

"Cockles and Mussels" Comic Song. (Written and composed by J. Yorkston, arranged by E. Forman.) Yorkston. James 1884.

Style is much more 19th Century also.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM

Allan Sherman wrote a brief take-off on the song, I don't remember all the words:

her barrow is narrow her hips are too wide I don't mind her fat butt It's not only that, but Her girdle keeps scraping the homes on each side!


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM

The gist of that site (no mention of an author?) looks very much like the article I mentioned.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: IanC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

Martin

On the site it says

This webpage is based on Sean Murphy, The Mystery of Molly Malone, Dublin 1992, now out of print.

Was this your article?

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

Ian

Thanks - That's what comes of sneaking a look at something while I was supposed to be doing something else! I certainly didn't take in the footnotes at first reading!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

I hadn't heard of Murphy's book before. There's a copy of it in the Irish Traditional Music Archive, seemingly. Their catalogue dates it as 1922, rather than 1992, incidentally. I'll have a look next time I'm in Dublin.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:37 PM

Quick post without reading all above (willdo offline)
I heard a dissertation from a scholar on Radio 4 that someone (maybe him) reckoned that far from 17th century Irish that there was evidence that it was probably written in the Victorian era by a Scot in either Edinburgh or Glasga. The songwriter was mentioned by name. Plus a dirth of reportage on it before AD 18XX
I didn't believe it either but who am I to trash someones PhD thesis because I feel rather than know?


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:52 PM

It goes quite quite well if you change Dublin to London, and sing with the most outrageous cockney accent you can manage! (Cockoos and massoos)

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 05:32 AM

Looks to me as though the article in Irish Music Magazine was based on the same research as the website. Doesn't add any more to what we have so far.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,ALJMAJ@JUNO.COM
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 09:59 PM

i'm looking for the movie that the song was sung in

any one know. this must be an easy question for this group. thanks


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 02:01 AM

Well, this page (click) seems to indicate that "Molly Malone" was sung in Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange. I didn't see the movie, but I think I should have.
The song was also featured on an episode of M*A*S*H.
-Joe Offer (e-mail sent)-


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: masato sakurai
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 03:33 AM

International Movie Database (Word search: "molly malone" in soundtracks) returned:

Here are the soundtracks containing molly malone

1. Premature Burial, The (1962) - "Molly Malone"

2. Tree Grows in Brooklyn, A (1945) - "Molly Malone"

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:14 AM

Why make Molly Malone into a London song anyway ? There already is a London song about a lass who sells seafood (sprats in this case) and comes to sad end "The Ratcatcher's Daughter". She also only ever seems to have fancied one fellow.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:13 AM

I still love Susan Reed's version of this song, real haunting long drawn out street peddlar's cry at the end. Lovely.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,gemma
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:26 PM

is folk music written by annonomouce people? please reply


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:44 AM

This is.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:08 PM

i found this website that has all the info about her http://www.bordercolliekennel.nl/story_of_molly_malone1.htm

go there it real good


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:49 PM

Last night, I happened to be at a party hosted by a Mr. Malone. His daughter [after 3 sons] was named Molly.

When I asked him whether his daughter was named after the song, he replied that she was.

He added that he had visited Dublin and when he got into a discussion with another lad in a pub the subject of Molly Malone came up. The other lad had a bit of discomfort at that point and when Mr. Malone asked him why, the discomfort grew. When pressed, the other let Malone know that "Molly Malone" is still used as a euphemism for prostitute.

Interesting convergence, hmmm.....alive, alive oh-o...

EBarnacle


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: masato sakurai
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM

Broadside ballad entitled 'Cockles and Mussels. Aliv, O' is at The Word on the Street - Broadsides at the National Library of Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: masato sakurai
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:39 PM

There's another "Molly Malone" song by J. Gaspard Maeder (New York: Pond & Co., Wm. A., 1870). Click here.


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:21 AM

All this noxious stuff about Molly being a tart is the result of mixing two things - beer and jealousy. I can just picture all those nothing men sitting in bars and making up nasty stuff about "Molly Malone." Why? because she achieved a small amount of fame, and they never did.

It's a song that's lived because it feels good to sing it. Why ruin it?


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Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:28 PM

GUEST leeneia, you may be missing the point. The claim that Molly was really a 17th-18th Century "tart" was intended to promote Dublin as a tourist destination in 1988. In other words, it's supposed to be a *good* thing ! Irish TV even held a press conference to spread the word. This website will tell you all about it.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/molly.htm


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:43 PM

Molly Malone origin- So much nonsense!
"Cockles and Mussels," a comic song, written and composed by James Yorkston, a Scotsman, and published by Francis Brothers and Day, 1884, London (also an Edinburgh printing?- "printed by permission of Kohler and Son"). See broadside of "Cockles and Mussels" at NLS linked by Masato, above.
Also in an 1883(?) song book, U. S. (see second link, below).

See The Contemplator: Cockles and Mussels
Also Irish Historical Mysteries: Molly
This article, with references, details the nonsense and history of the myth, up to the Grafton Street Statue of 1988. "A farrago of invention."

There are several songs about a "Molly Malone," not of the fishy barrow, including the one by Maeder, linked by Masato, and one by George M. Cohan, 1927 (Levy Sheet Music, but not shown because of copyright).


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Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:19 AM

Molly Malone AKA the tart with the cart.

eric


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Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: Fergie
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:25 AM

(cut and pasted from an older thread I started).

I found these lyrics by chance and I just had to post them.
For those who have no Gaeilge it is a translation of the good old singalong Molly Malone. Well I got a giggle out of them.

Mol Ní Mhaoileoin

I mBaile Athá Cliath, Ní fhaca mé riamh,
Aon chailín níos sciamhaí ná Mol Ní Mhaoileoin,
Ag stiúradh a barra,
gach áit ins a chathair,
Le ruacain is sliogáin, is iad go breá beo..

curfa:
Is iad go breá beo, is iad go breá beo,
Le ruacain is sliogáin, is iad go breá beo.

Ba mhangaire éisc í, an cheird di ab éasca,
Os amhlaidh dá muintir ó chianta fadó,
Ag stiúradh a mbarra,
gach áit ins a chathair,
Le ruacain is sliogáin, is iad go breá beo.

curfa:
Ach mo chreach is mo dhiacair, fuair Mol bocht an fiabhras,
Agus b'in i an chríoch bhí le Mol Ní Mhaoiloin,
Ach tá taibhse sa chathair,
ag stiúradh a barra,
Le ruacain is sliogáin, is iad go breá beo.
curfa:
Fergus


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Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:38 AM

Very good, Fergus. Anyone heard Frank Harte's rendition, where the "Co-ckles! and Mu-ssles! --Alive, Alive O!" is given in the manner of a street-chant, and is in my view the more effective for this. But what would a doctrinaire Irish "traditional" singer make of this performance; that is, when there seems to be a prohibition (among some - doctrinaire - singers) upon any element of characterization, interpretation, "coloring" the voice, etc etc? (Just a question that's been concerning me for some time)


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Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM

Frank's comment on this song, which he sang regularly, used to be : "Never judge a song by the company it keeps!"

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM

Great stuff! Another "phrase and philosophy".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,as a child
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:18 PM

I remember hearing and singing this song from childhood. As I've grown up, I've known so many people whose good name has been slandarized, even publically, as a result of one jealousy or another. And false or not, those slandars often remain as the only remembered testimony. And this is what I believe is the case regarding the history of Molly Malone.

As I recall, the question that is supposed to be asked is not who or what Molly Malone was, but rather who was the original singer and why did he sing this song about this woman?

It was told to me that the singer is actually her husband. Molly, a hard working woman from a hard working family, was seen by this young lad in his youth. He fell in love with her, married her, and eventually watched sadly as his wife died in his arms. The song is supposed to be both a tribute to her and a warning to us all not to miss the love as we may find it, or let the beautiful opportunity of life pass us by. A reminder that one day, it will be too late.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:59 PM

As many myths as there are cockles and mussels.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,Bridgett
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

I sang a song in school that is different than this one... I don't remember the title, only some of the lyrics... here's what I remember..
.. and Patrick O'Leary told Molly Malone, my darlin I'll come back for you... when the warm sun of kansas makes the grain grow tall my darlin I'll come back for you..

anyone know this???


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

Geoghegan's song 'Cockles and Mussels' can be found on the British Library Collect Britain website under Victorian popular Music.
It is dated 1876 and the singer of the famous chorus is one 'Jim' not a Molly. The singer is a London Costermonger who is 'known the world over from Stepney to Bow'. The chorus runs
Fresh cockles and mussels alive, alive O!
Alive, O! alive O!
Alive, alive O! I call as I go,
Fresh cockles and mussels alive, alive O!

Geoghegan was born in Lancashire but lived a lot of his life in Sheffield. He wrote lots of songs we nowadays think of as folk songs and almost rivals the great Harry Clifton in this respect. He wrote 'Hey John Barleycorn', 'Ten Thousand Miles Away', 'I likes a drop of good beer', 'They all have a mate but me', 'Down in a Coal Mine', 'Johnny I hardly knew ye', 'Pat works on the Railway' etc etc.

Now regarding the origins of MM, if Yorkston wrote it in the 80s then obviously he was influenced by Geoghegan's song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

Cries of street peddlers tended to be typical and at least semi-musical. Does anyone know if 19th C. peddlers actually sang out, "Alive, alive O! Cockles and mussels! Alive, alive O!" Maybe they even did it to something like the melody in "MM"!

If so, Yorkston may not have been plagiarizing - or not quite so much!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

GUEST,as a child, wrote:

It was told to me that the singer is actually her husband. Molly, a hard working woman from a hard working family, was seen by this young lad in his youth. He fell in love with her, married her, and eventually watched sadly as his wife died in his arms. The song is supposed to be both a tribute to her and a warning to us all not to miss the love as we may find it, or let the beautiful opportunity of life pass us by. A reminder that one day, it will be too late.

Where in the world did that come from? I've never heard ANYTHING similar to that about the lady of the boobs. If there's any basis for the dying-in-hubby's-arms story, I'd like to hear it.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

Nice rack!

But speaking of "fever," I think the way the lady is depicted here is mainly a matter of someone's fevered imagination.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

Many years back a fellow I met, a visiting journalist from Leeds, England, postulated that Molly was actually a transplanted latter-day Luddite lass who was forced into fishmongering and ancillary activities by an unfeeling factory owner for whom the later casting of the statue was penance. I demurred, thinking the whole tale a little fishy...

He also mentioned the concept that Molly's ample "caboose" was the proximate origin of the rude term "broad." What can I say; he was obviously biased, not to mention the three bottles of "wee heavy" (McEwan's Scotch Ale) we had during the conversation.


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Subject: RE: Other Molly Malone
From: Mysha
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM

Hi Bridgett,

I don't know the song, but seven years ago in
this thread someone tried to find a song that looks almost the same. The thread doesn't have the answer, but it does give a short version of the story. Maybe reading about it will jog your memory.

                                                                  Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Jonathan,
Couldn't find anything in Mayhew or Old London Street Cries other than plain old 'Mussels!' I'm sure I've seen a cut of something like what you describe though.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,Archie Caulfield
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:23 AM

Does the nom de guerre "The Molly Malones" for some kind of Secret Society/Workers' Protection Organisation in America in the nineteenth century pre-date James Yorkton's ballad? Or did they adopt this name forany known reason?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

Sure doesn't. You're thinking of the "Molly Maguires."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:20 PM

Words I remember from the song:

Fair thee well, my darling, to America
I will wait in Ireland for thee
When the warm sun of Kansas
   Makes the grains grow tall
My darling, I'll come back for thee

A [wave] of Scarlet Fever started out in the West
And Patrick was so far from home
????
????, his Molly Malone


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 04:39 PM

try this addy it gives a history ..hope it is what ur looking for http://mollymalones.com.cy/about-cyprus-and-ireland/molly-malone-story/


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM

Funny cross-reference story. I smoke pipes. One of the great pipe-makers is Peterson. They make several iterations of the pipe we often envision when we think of Sherlock Holmes' pipe. They have come out with a "Molly Malone" line of pipes. I have asked them why. I will share with the group.

Saul


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:24 AM

About the pipes:

I did an Internet search, and came up with this discussion from the listing on Smokingpipes.com:

"Peterson's Molly Malone set presents a fine pair of pipes named in honor of the enigmatic figure whose beauty and tragedy is the subject of the popular 19th century Irish ballad, and who is considered a symbol of the countless impoverished women of Dublin who made their meager livings as street-hawkers by day and, all too often, as part-time ladies-of-the-evening by night. For this two-pipe set, Peterson's chosen a sturdy, and rather full-bodied bent Brandy, as well as a bold and upright straight Rhodesian, each banded in sterling silver. They've also, for the box art, chosen an image of the bronze statue of Molly Malone by Jeanne Rynhart (known locally as the "Dolly With the Trolley"), which now stands at the end of Dublin's Grafton Street, and of whom it must be said, does certainly possess a decolletage positively made for marketing.

- Eric N. Squires"


I find the the idea that Peterson would create a pipe in honor of someone of low degree fascinating.

Saul


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,Narelle
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:36 PM

I am practising a song called Cockles and Muscles on my ukulele and it has brought back memories of a film I saw as a child. Problem is I cannot remember it title and would love to know the name of the person who produced it. I think Molly was a wonderful person who had a sad life and am appalled at all the insulting innuendo people have suggested as to her character. It seems people just like to throw mud.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:51 PM

Came across a video of the late Frank Harte singing his version some years ago - with some ghostly harmonies!

Click here

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Molly Malone
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 03:25 PM

Farrago - by conjecture out of ignorance; thank heaven for people like the late Bruce O, Steve Gardam and Martin Ryan who base their conclusions on sound research and long experience.


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