BS: Boarding University!

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 08:25 AM

I Also no idea if it is true about fees but have heard unfounded rumours. I havent heard any speculation if we are only talking undergraduates or hight degrees as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 08:18 AM

I'm hoping you're right. If they could trash them before I start my MPhil I'd be even happier.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:09 AM

I think that student fees are doomed. I heard a rumble to that effect yesterday, can't remember the source right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM

Nope. It was meant canonically.


Geddit? Cane, canonically? Whaddam I like! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:06 AM

The situation is student loans is absolutely appalling. It causes real issues for students at all levels of study at uni and the amount of debt my colleagues are left with after graduating from their PhDs is astonishing; if you think this has no affect on people then you are not living in the real world, it is a huge burden on people.

Also, the hike in funds is tough on self-funded people as many foreign students (and myself) are. For those from overseas the cost of HE courses as well as the toxic atmosphere generated by Brexit (which is also real, it is discussed frequently) is causing palpable anxiety. If you start your PhD and some twat hikes the cost of your course half way though you could be in real trouble if you can't find extra funding, and no-one wins.

Universities are partly responsible for this of course, but it sticks in the craw to see some rich toff like Jo Johnson telling people loaded with debt when they leave uni that they're getting a good deal. He doesn't have a fucking clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:36 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:08 AM

Iains, your ignorance is astonishing.

.............................................................

Complaints from industrialists about schools churning out illiterate students have been there forever, not just since 2000. A couple of points on that: first, the complainants always represent a small numerical minority of industrialists, usually right-wingers who are harking back to a mythical golden age when the privileged few sat in serried ranks of wooden desks with full inkwells, learning by rote, ruled with a cane of iron wielded by a strutting classroom Hitler

I would have thought that, as a teacher, you would have discovered that canes are made of cane (surprise surprise)not iron. Of course, "rod of iron" would have been acceptable usage, both being a biblical quote (and common expression) and using 'rod' as a common synonym for 'cane' (as an instrument of punishment).

It's amusing to see that the posts of the two right-wingers here who moan about declining standards of literacy are themselves generally replete with errors of grammar and punctuation, not to speak of inelegant expression. They are also the people who sneer most at the errors of other people's posts. Ironic, eh?

In view of the above, I trust that this last quote was also meant ironically?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:09 AM

"!Was there any point you were trying to make there
Yes - that you pair, with you presistent and long-term bullying aggression is fuckinbg up thread after thread - it seems to be an obsession
"Jom?"
"You are objectionable, ill-informed, biased, bigoted, a dinosaur that represents the very worst of 1970s Britain."
"You make idiotic and patently untrue statements that do not stand up to the most cursory examination when challenged. You then resort to insults and deflection to cover your tracks as you retreat - your last post is a classic example of it.""
There - see what I mean
And your little friend
"This is mental midget talking down to you o sour little scouser.
Unlike your goodself that cannot master the art, or the argument. I
Neither of you manage to aspire to adulthood with your pathetic nake-calling
If you are unable to control your behaviour you should not be here - certainly not discussing education - if you are an example of what you are promoting
Feel free to make your list - the examples of your appallingly childish behaviour have been put together recently - long after Joe Offer suggested we needed to clean up our act
We did - three of you continue to pollute this forum with your vitriol, though Ake seems to have lapsed into silence
It is about time you got a grip of yourselves or followed Ake's example
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:07 AM

As the moody Blues would say exam results are getting "higher and higher".
Yet:

https://www.indy100.com/article/the-uk-has-one-of-the-lowest-literacy-and-numeracy-rates-in-the-developed-world--bkgu_g4NTg


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/britain-named-worst-in-developed-world-for-literacy-so-yes-school-reform-is-needed/


http://www.reform.uk/publication/standards-of-public-examinations-in-england-and-wales/

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:35 AM

"stop being so bloody rude and childish." Better take that caber out of your eye shaw!
I generally put links up to support my arguments. Unlike your goodself that cannot master the art, or the argument. I present opinions shared by others, whereas you in your unsurpassed arrogance, feel it is not necessary.
Is conflate the new word of the moment? makes a pleasant change from insecurity I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:35 AM

OK, Dave, but competition among boards doesn't necessarily mean a race to the bottom. When I was involved in these things I found that the whole business of one exam board being "easier" than another was shrouded in mythology. There are other factors that schools may take into account such as the nature of course work and the structure of exam papers. But much of it was reputations predicated on shaky evidence. The boards are obliged to work together to try to achieve consistency year on year and across the boards. Don't you think there'd be outrage if one exam board's results were suddenly so much better than everyone else's?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:27 AM

Presenting links without comment is rude and lazy. I don't open such links. You should be giving at least a brief summary of what is in the link. You have presented lots of your ignorant and prejudiced opinions but no evidence that the standard of work done by students and their levels of literacy have fallen. And you can't, because they haven't. You persist in conflating that with your perception that exams are getting easier and that the value of degree classification is being degraded. The two are not connected. Get a grip and say something worth responding to, and stop being so bloody rude and childish.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

I have no direct experience of the processes whereby standards across boards are set. I was simply reacting to the article which said:

One study by the Science Community Representing Education (Score) – a group of learned bodies – looked at biology, chemistry and physics.

...

The report raised concerns that competition between exam boards prevented them setting papers or assessments "that might appear difficult, for example by including more and more challenging mathematical content."


In such circumstances it is worth looking to see who 'Score' is, and I found this:

SCORE
The Association for Science Education, Institute of Physics, Royal Society, Royal Society of Biology and Royal Society of Chemistry work in partnership to promote high-quality science education in schools. We provide guidance and advice to those who make policy decisions about biology, chemistry and physics education in schools. We bring expertise, collective action and a strategic approach to strengthening education in the sciences of biology, chemistry and physics education for students from 5 to 19. We use our united voice to advocate evidence-informed science education policy. We believe that science education should prepare present and future citizens for modern society, stimulate interest in the further study of the sciences and educate the next generation of science-based professionals.



So if this group thinks competition between boards might be a cause for concern it is worth investigating. If they find there isn't a problem, all well and good.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:19 AM

The evidence has been presented. Perhaps besides not being able to create blue clickies, you are also lacking the skill set to open them as well. As someone who proclaims to the world he is a well educated scientist-well, one is forced to wonder about that. Doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:08 AM

Iains, your ignorance is astonishing.

.............................................................

Complaints from industrialists about schools churning out illiterate students have been there forever, not just since 2000. A couple of points on that: first, the complainants always represent a small numerical minority of industrialists, usually right-wingers who are harking back to a mythical golden age when the privileged few sat in serried ranks of wooden desks with full inkwells, learning by rote, ruled with a cane of iron wielded by a strutting classroom Hitler (many of the rest festered in secondary moderns which did not even allow pupils to sit exams, though some of those schools did sterling work, it has to be said). Second, such complaints are routinely hoovered up by the gutter press and foghorned from the rooftops out of all proportion. If you think that literacy levels ain't what they used to be, then you must present the evidence for that, including details of the ways literacy is measured. You'll have an uphill struggle. Over to you. If you wish to use the rantings of those businessmen and college lecturers as part of your evidence, then tell us where they got their evidence from. Received wisdom is a wonderful thing in this field. Alternatively, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. So, evidence, please.

For the second time, let me shatter the myth that exam boards are involved in a race to the bottom in order to get schools to sign up. In fact, extensive and painstaking work is done every year by chief examiners to ensure consistency in standards across the boards. You can't ask the same questions on exam papers every year and different boards set different questions in different formats, so achieving a common standard is fraught. But that work is carried out and it always informs the setting and marking of future exams.   

It's amusing to see that the posts of the two right-wingers here who moan about declining standards of literacy are themselves generally replete with errors of grammar and punctuation, not to speak of inelegant expression. They are also the people who sneer most at the errors of other people's posts. Ironic, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM

Was there any point you were trying to make there Jom?

Have you any idea the length of a post that would illustrate your past tirades, jibes and insults?

You are objectionable, ill-informed, biased, bigoted, a dinosaur that represents the very worst of 1970s Britain.

You make idiotic and patently untrue statements that do not stand up to the most cursory examination when challenged. You then resort to insults and deflection to cover your tracks as you retreat - your last post is a classic example of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:47 AM

This is mental midget talking down to you o sour little scouser. Who has never been known to throw out insults has he? If you are out of your depth and cannot contribute to the discussion you could always keep quiet.

Boy this is just like shooting ducks!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/6063012/A-level-results-grade-inflation-is-just-a-cruel-confidence-trick.html

http://www.economist.com/node/14270137   (anyone for meedja studies?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_inflation

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:32 AM

"So what you are trying to say shaw is that you helped create the problem. What an accomplishment!"

This is the level of input into this discussion put in by our advocates of 'educated superiors' so far on this thread
It shows these people as incapable of holding an intelligent and respectful discussion without constantly lapsing into hate filled vitriolic personal abuse aimed at whoever disagrees with them
Hardly a recommendation for their case, especially as it appliers to every single thread they infest
I quite enjoy compiling these lists – your loutish behaviour undermines everything you say - such behaviour would lead you to being thrown out of a kindergarten
It certainly doesn't say much for elitist education
It's totally beyond me why you are allowed to persist on an otherwise enjoyable and informative forum
I look forward very much to adding to this list - keep it up lads
Jim Carroll


IAINS
"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate."

"'All men are created equal' says the American Declaration of Independence.
'All men shall be kept equal' say the Socialists."

"Socialists make the mistake of confusing individual worth with success. They believe you cannot allow people to succeed in case those who fail feel worthless."

"You guys are hilarious!ou provide endless entertainment"

"Here you are boys. Chew on this:"

"Shaw has started to babble about food. Says it all really."

"'All men shall be kept equal' say the Socialists.
But despite that the cream still manages to rise to the top!"

"Well Jimmie here's some up to date history of the Labour party."

"Hey Shaw you should talk to the whinging scouser. He is the one with a fixation on Churchill and dragging in politicians. Same tired old garbage over and over. Just to set the record straight, the death toll at Tonypandy was one, more jimmy exaggeration. He obviously dreamt up piles of bodies."

"No!!! You presume too much. You are not in the classroom now."

"I suspect the people in the Rhondda researched the subject of the Tonypandy riots a little more thoroughly than Jimmie. No surprise their version is far more restrained and less sensational. Amazing how the story changes when the political grandstanding is castrated."

"You need more practice to become a comic Shaw. You should do it in front of a mirror instead of boring the rest of us."

"Well sour little scouser and twerp shaw please explain why abbopotomus"

"Just a whiff of hypocrisy I detect. The labour clique mantra: "do as I say, not as I do." Dachas for us, gulags for the rest. Typical socialist "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" No doubt when the time is ripe labour would like to introduce the guillotine to thin out the hoi polloi."

"Hoi polloi = oiks like you shaw.(common people.) Very common in your case."

"Tsk. Do I have to spoon feed you shaw. You know what they say:" you can lead a horse to water............"

"Call yourself a scientist/teacher/botanist!-do you really know what you are?Can't be much of a scientist if you cannot puzzle out how to construct a link, and even boast about it.(The instructions I always considered idiot proof-but for you I suppose I must make an exception."

TERIBUS
"Wonder why our lecherous old sandal and short wearing "Oik" has to mention me in a thread "

"Think it was more the fact that your "fater" refused the offer that I referred to - in any event we unfortunately ended up with you, my little whinging scouser"

"you are a perfect example of someone who claims one but obviously lacks the other. You are with out a doubt a complete and utter Oik and you and your pals revel in your "Oikishness".

"Come on then Jom"

"Hello there 👨🏻🎓the "Oik" when applied to you Shaw requires a capital because you are an oik of such massive proportions. See in the "Bullocks" thread you and your fellow "Oiks" are relaying tales of more irresponsible oikish behaviour. "Country dweller" indeed - your pal Jom would describe you as a townie blow- in. Talking of Jom, Shaw, now there is someone who does need some lessons in spelling and grammar ."

"Your knowledge of the Labour movement in Wales is not sketchy Jom - It is non-existent."

"So Jom "

"Oh 👨🎓 anyone who bangs on about ..... me car, .....me Dad, .....me garden has got some effin' cheek giving anyone else tips on written English, on the subject of the latter your pal Jom sometimes comes quite close to managing a sentence now and again - mostly when he isn't frothing at the mouth and ranting."
ONE POSTING

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:27 AM

"the incentive of finding a job and getting a university place has been removed from the aspirations of our children bcause there is no longer an industry to provide work and further education is now far beyond the expectations of the vast majority of young people in britain because it has been priced out of their reach"

No idea what any of that has to do with young adults coming out of our schools not being able to read, write or count.

But it does beg the question of how there are more people at work in the UK today than at anytime in it's entire history - wonder what they are all beavering away at as we no longer have "an industry" - Not that we only had one before.

If on reaching the stage of leaving school you have difficulty in reading and writing I would imagine your expectations would be somewhat curtailed by your capabilities.

Heard in the folk club the other night - "Of course anybody can be taught to sing" - which of course in a sense is true - "Anybody could be taught to be a brain surgeon" - doesn't mean that they would be any good at it, most would not be and hopefully would steer clear of it as a means of making a living.

A little exercise for those who witter on about education being placed beyond the reach of people.


1: Read the rules related to tuition fees and student loans

2: Apply that knowledge to the expected career path of a university graduate and detail the repayment schedule if the post graduate student stays in the UK to work.

You will find over the course of the thirty-year life of the loan - few if any will ever pay their loans off. The repayments start with sums that equate to the cost of a couple of nights down the pub per month to the cost of a dinner for four per month later on in life. After thirty years the debt is written off. If you go and work abroad you pay nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:20 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 03:49 AM

So why are there complaints about literacy and numeracy skills on entry of school leavers into industry or university by employers and lecturers?
The problem is there and has been clearly recognised since 2000. In 2010 this was identified within our penal system:
"prison population is some 85,000. More than three-quarters of them cannot read, write or count to the standard expected of an 11-year-old."

True, but I wonder what percentage of 11 year olds can write or count to the standard expected of an 11-year-old

I must admit I find writing easier on the computer. Spell-check helps (but I sometimes disagree with it). What I do like is the ability to include italics or bold type with just a couple of keyboard strokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM

So what you are trying to say shaw is that you helped create the problem. What an accomplishment!
The statistics destroy your argument. It require more than your smug arrogance to counter the argument.( Oh and about those blue clickys?)


http://www.reform.uk/publication/standards-of-public-examinations-in-england-and-wales/
" At 50 UK universities - roughly a third of the total - at least 25% of degrees awarded in 2015/16 were a first, while at 10 institutions, more than a third were given the highest award. By contrast, in 2010/11 just 12 institutions gave at least one in four degrees a first, and only two gave more than a third the top honour.
    On average, across all institutions there has been around an eight percentage point rise in firsts in the last five years, the analysis of Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) data shows.
    Just seven institutions have seen a fall in the proportion of firsts.
    Five universities and colleges have seen the proportion of top honours rise by at least 20 percentage points, while 40 institutions have seen at at least a 10-point hike."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/12100610/Record-number-of-first-class-degrees-awarded-to-students.html

Babble away to your heart's content but you cannot dispute the reality that standards have dropped. League tables are irrelevant-so is the fact that tertiary education is a business.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:18 AM


"So why are there complaints about literacy and numeracy skills on entry of school leavers into industry or university by employers and lecturers?"

That's a good question, and I think it is best expressed by the biblical observation "no man can serve two masters". Politicians have a great incentive to show their policies are working, so they like higher rates and to show everything is improving. The schools are forced by the league tables to show they are always improving and getter better results. The exam boards and so on are involved in this search for higher and higher results as well.

And all this is the exact opposite of what business wants: it wants a wide spread of grades, so only a few are 'the best' and they are easily identified. Those objectives are inherently incompatible.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM

"So why are there complaints about literacy and numeracy skills on entry of school leavers into industry or university by employers and lecturers?"
Perhaps because the incentive of finding a job and getting a university place has been removed from the aspirations of our children bcause there is no longer an industry to provide work and further education is now far beyond the expectations of the vast majority of young people in britain because it has been priced out of their reach
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 03:49 AM

So why are there complaints about literacy and numeracy skills on entry of school leavers into industry or university by employers and lecturers?

The problem is there and has been clearly recognised since 2000. In 2010 this was identified within our penal system:

"prison population is some 85,000. More than three-quarters of them cannot read, write or count to the standard expected of an 11-year-old."

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 02:37 AM

As an outsider, Steve, that's how it looks to me as well. And while private schools are not subject those assessments in the same way, teaching to the exam is precisely what happened in the public school I mentioned above. The aforementioned boyfriend's English classes studied précis and read one of two key scenes from books, but why on earth would you waste time reading the whole thing?

I agree schools can't directly manipulate external exams, but the bit I quoted from the report says different examination boards may be making the questions easier. If that is so, there is great pressure on the schools management via Ofsted and league tables to select the board which gives them higher results. In the panoply of manipulation that Steve referred to, that is small beer. Which makes that board more profitable, of course, so they have every incentive to do that as well. So there is at least one path whereby publishing league tables could be a direct cause of grade inflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 02:34 AM

"Funny innit that the lefties among them probably scorn "boarding school!!"
Funny innit that the many thousands of people taking up higher education today will not include those from lower paid famies because you Righties have placed it out of reach of reach of their parents and made it only available to the privileged.
Nobody here gives a toss about boardings schools - if a lot of young men (or young women) wish to go off and live together for long periods and get up to what young people get up to in the privacy of their own company, that is their business
That the majority of British people are deprived of a decent education system whic is leading to a situation that we are now being ruled by a bunch of educated Hooray Henrys who have destroyed our industrial base, split the nation into a small number of haves and a vast majority of have-nots and are set fair to close access to a vast number of jobs for unemployed British people - is all our business.
You might be able to give an unquantifed number of monkeys typewriters for an unquantified number of years and end up with the works of Shakespeare but you can't turn a select bunch of privileged buffoons into a decent national leadership which will "put Britain on its feet" - that takes and educated and inspired population.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:34 PM

"But the main point of my last post was to raise the question whether the league tables are themselves a cause of grade inflation. Any thoughts on that?"

Well schools can't do much about manipulating the results of external exams such as GCSEs or 'A' Levels. What they can do is train children to pass exams instead of educating them. Excuse my cynicism. Course work organised by teachers can be a major source of cheating. After all, you have Ofsted and the league table breathing down your neck, both of which have no interest in education but every interest in your school's statistics. I saw major wholesale cheating going on (first-hand, details on request can't be provided here) in one school that resulted in one department getting stellar GCSE results one year. I'll never know why someone's antennae weren't all a-twitching at the sheer disparity between that department's results and the much poorer, honest results of all the other departments in the school. I also saw the pupils in Key Stage 2 tests in a primary school brazenly being told the answers. Would you blame the teachers, when any adverse Ofsted report sees you getting shat on for years and your career progress threatened? Are you surprised that teachers are leaving in droves and that it's getting impossible in some areas to recruit headteachers?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:12 PM

The Eleven-plus exam that I passed had three examined elements, not just "intelligence." The other two examined elements were English and Mathematics. There was a further element of teacher recommendation. You are seriously out of your depth here, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:01 PM

"In a nutshell more people of lower intelligence are achieving higher grades."

In a nutshell there is no evidence whatsoever for this. The aim of the "system" is that the right people are awarded the right grades. We have worked very hard to achieve that. I could tell you horror stories about how 'O' Level and 'A' Level exam papers were extensively "impression-marked" in the 70s and 80s. Though it was before my time, I can't think that it was any different in the 50s and 60s. Marking exam scripts is piece work. The faster you do it, the more you get paid. In the old days your moderator was probably of like mind and connived in that. These days, integrity and close scrutiny is the name of the game. The futures of thousands of young people who had worked hard to pass their exams and progress themselves was once in the arbitrary hands of those lazy bastards of old. We've come a long way since then. And what I'm telling you should make you think very hard before you ignorantly start to rattle on about "standards."

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:47 PM

Well, Iains, DMcG was saying tbe same thing as I was saying. Your post is a bit brainless coming from a man (well I suppose you could be a woman) who claims to be a science consultant. I never ask for proof, nor am I interested in anyone trying to prove anything. That isn't how science works. Or didn't you know?

For twelve years I worked for what was then the University of London exam board as an examiner in 'A' Level biology. My specialism was the three-hour essay paper, though I also marked structured question papers. After a few years I was promoted to the position of Assistant Chief Examiner/team leader, in charge of moderating the work of a team of examiners. No-one from top to bottom was immune from being vetted. On more than one occasion I was involved in vetting the marking of our chief examiners. I also marked thousands of scripts from overseas, many from Hong Kong and Singapore, almost a monopoly for the London board.

Over that period I saw the papers becoming far more "can-do." One year, quite early on, I marked over two hundred essay papers, none of which gained more than 59%. That was reflected by the work of all the other examiners. There's a big problem with exams that are as tough as that: they discriminate very badly as all the results are skewed into the lower echelons. The difference between a B and an E can be as little as six or seven percent. That is unconscionable. The whole point of exams is to get a good range of scores. In the next few years tbe exams "got easier," but all that meant was that we got a good spread of scores with far more manageable grade boundaries. What it most decidedly did not mean is that the standard of the students had slipped. In fact, exam boards did extensive work among themselves in order to establish that standards were maintained across the board as much as possible year on year. It can't be perfect as you can't ask the same questions on the papers every year. The trouble is that people like Iains, with his anti-state system agenda, knows nothing about these processes. But I'll just say again: you think exams are getting easier? Well you may be right, though remember what exams are supposed to be for, to inform us about a range of student abilities. An exam that scores 90% of pupils below a score of 40/100 may satisfy your desire for high standards to be maintained, but, as far as informing us as to the excellent, the good, the average, the poor and the hopeless, well, it's hopeless. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:56 PM

DMcG Once upon a time education was perceived as a benefit, now it is a business, especially at degree level. To be a success a business must produce results. 50% failing does not make a successful business model.
Need I say more.

Selected on the basis of tested intelligence (the 11+)and producing a lower standard of success than those of average intelligence(or however you wish to describe the broader participation in both secondary and tertiary education) raises some major issues that goes way beyond the generation gap of the two sets of results.
In a nutshell more people of lower intelligence are achieving higher grades. This does not compute unless you accept the bar is lower.
I do not believe any other explanation is valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:44 PM

"It does not mean that standards have dropped/slipped. It could mean that exams or other methods of assessment have been more favourable to candidates,"
Don't be absurd shaw. If you want to make ridiculous statements like the above let's be having some proof(as you are known to say)
As a well educated scientist you should not have to be told that to back up a theory some sort of proof needs to be shown, otherwise it is merely meaningless words.
Call yourself a scientist/teacher/botanist!-do you really know what you are?Can't be much of a scientist if you cannot puzzle out how to construct a link, and even boast about it.(The instructions I always considered idiot proof-but for you I suppose I must make an exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:43 PM

I am reminded of a science fiction short story I read 50+ years ago where by government decree the length of a metre was reduced a little year by year. The consequence was that every year new world records were set, as the 100 metre was run in a shorter and shorter time. In the same way car speeds got faster, miles per gallon improved and so on. But in an absolute sense, nothing had changed.

That's the difference between grade inflation and the actual capability of the the student. Proof of grade inflation does not, in itself, say whether the capability has changed or not.


But the main point of my last post was to raise the question whether the league tables are themselves a cause of grade inflation. Any thoughts on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:41 PM

Many 1000s of youngsters are leaving home today for "boarding university"! Funny innit that the lefties among them probably scorn "boarding school!!

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

It does not mean that standards have dropped/slipped. It could mean that exams or other methods of assessment have been more favourable to candidates, but in no way would that be an indication that the standards exhibited by students have gone down. You are conflating two unconnected things. It's an easy mistake to make, though you have repeatedly told us that you are a science consultant (whatever that means). That's very disappointing. But not surprising. More to follow. I'm posting in haste.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:48 PM

DMcG. I would say the statistics make a very convincing case. More qualifications obtained, higher grades at GCSE and A Level, Far more people obtaining degrees, with a much higher percentage obtaining 1st and upper seonds.
If you take the late 60's as a benchmark roughly 12% had grammar school or equivalent education. Of that cohort a smaller number went on to obtain degrees. Few obtained a first or upper second.
Compare that with today and by any metric the figures cannot be reconciled unless you accept that standards have dropped. The atatistics are in the public domain for all to peruse.
In a nutshell a wider range of abilities is achieving better results than those that passed their 11+ 50 years ago.
Unless the paradigm has shifted the results cannot be reconciled unless you accept standards have slipped.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:43 PM

"It is non-existent."
As is your ability to act like an adult
Do you really not realise what a moron you look strutting around like a schoolyard bully intead of slaughtering us with your obvious erudition and knowledge
Now you have a parrot to sit on your shoulder -
If you got rid of the penis-substitute gun you wave around to show the world what a man you are and replaced it with a cutlass, you might at least provide a litle light entertainment .
"Your knowledge of the Labour movement in Wales is not sketchy Jom "
Sure it is - but at least it's being based on one of them
Your hatred of British people with your "layabouts", skivers, no-nothing morons who should be prepared to "get on their bikes, leave home and look for work if there any shelves to stack in Tescos, verges on racism
I don't think I've ever encountered anybody who dispays hatred of the British people as you and your handful of mates do - right down to "lying soldiers who only served three months in Paschendale"
Now - tell me about al these "economy-ruining" British people you have targeted down the years
"Jom"
And your imagination still hasn't been able to co up with anything mor imaginative than a typo.
What with you and your parrot - a matched pair of (water) pistols, I think
As the old saying nearly goes - he who can does, he who can't, throws shite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 01:53 PM

Those are interesting, Iains, though it is important to note the widely different years they were written. In one for this year I found this little snippet intriguing "The report raised concerns that competition between exam boards prevented them setting papers or assessments "that might appear difficult, for example by including more and more challenging mathematical content."

Now, why should they do that? Because it affects schools position in league tables, perhaps. So if you accept the standards are falling - which is not easy to analyse in the first place - it is at least a hypothesis to be tested that the league tables are a significant factor. Which would not be in the least surprising - it is a commonplace that measuring something can often affect what you are measuring.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 01:46 PM

Jim Carroll - 17 Sep 17 - 01:27 PM

Curchill - wasn't he the one who massacred the Tonypandy miners
Pip-pip
"My history of the Labour movement in Wales is rather sketchy, but I had a distinct memory of Churchill directing the rifle fire — 'shoot left', 'shoot right' — and piles of tiny Welsh corpses building up.

Your knowledge of the Labour movement in Wales is not sketchy Jom - It is non-existent.

Nobody was shot in Tonypandy - FACT.
Churchill was opposed to sending troops - but local Government demanded that they were sent.
The police were not armed.

So Jom where are these piles of tiny Welsh corpses shot by rifle fire directed by Winston Churchill nonetheless - Well I never.

Oh 👨‍🎓 anyone who bangs on about ..... me car, .....me Dad, .....me garden has got some effin' cheek giving anyone else tips on written English, on the subject of the latter your pal Jom sometimes comes quite close to managing a sentence now and again - mostly when he isn't frothing at the mouth and ranting.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 01:12 PM

"Tsk. Do I have to spoon feed you shaw. You know what they say:" you can lead a horse to water............"
Still the mindless crap - I really don't know why you fellers bother with this turd
Wonderful interlude on the news tonight while reporting the May/Johnson bout
The camera was trained on the front door of number 10, waiting for someone to emerge, when a rat ran along the pavement and disappeared, stage right
How symbolic can you get?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 10:35 AM

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/02/biology_chemistry_exams_ofqual/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9228904/A-level-maths-content-being-dumbed-down-claim-experts.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9238834/GCSE-and-A-level-exams-less-demanding-says-Ofqual.html

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/alert-over-dumbed-down-a-levels-6970086.html

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 10:27 AM

Tsk. Do I have to spoon feed you shaw. You know what they say:" you can lead a horse to water............"



https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/aug/17/a-levels-results-standards-ib

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 09:22 AM

Singapore has an authoritarian regime and its population is less than one-tenth the size of ours. It is one of the richest nations on earth and is a tax haven. It is a compact little country, not all diverse and spread out like ours. Trying to compare their system with ours is futile.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 09:14 AM

Perhaps you'd like to tell us what the alleged degradation of the university grading system has to do with standards in state schools. Do focus.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM

Why does Singapore adopt a system of education we have abandoned?


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/the-world-loves-our-grammar-school-system-so-why-dont-we/

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 07:42 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8235115/Dumbing-down-of-university-grades-revealed.html
1)kids getting smarter?
2)Teachers getting better?
3)Exams getting easier?

or just dumbing down?

If you have another way of measuring standards, let's be having it.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:21 AM

"Labour having destroyed nearly all grammar schools and replaced them with comprehensives, rather than admit having created a shamblesthey take their own children out of state educashun..."

A bit of history for you. From the mid-60s to the mid-70s both Labour and Tory administrations set about the rapid conversion of nearly all secondary schools to comprehensives. Since that time, standards, if you want to measure standards by the numbers getting A-C GCSE grades or equivalent grades in the old 'O' Levels, have risen so far that even the grammar schools of the early 1950s are outdone. If you have another way of measuring standards, let's be having it. What happens is that comprehensives outside the big cities do pretty well. In the more deprived inner city areas, children of better-off families are bussed around to "better schools" or put into grammar schools, leaving what are in effect secondary modern inner-city schools. I spent thirteen years in two of those. Tough places to be but still full of human beings who deserve a chance (which the vast majority took) and who we don't want ending up as young offenders. That's how it works. And some of your Labour people sent their children to grammar schools, which may or may not be private schools. Check your facts. Having said that, I think they shouldn't do it at all. Schools are not just places that teachers make or break. They are places integral to communities and the parents and other concerned people, as well as the kids and teachers, all have a stake in making it work. Sending your kid to a private school miles away from your community is doing that community, and your kid, a disservice. Why, some of them end up getting drunk, sticking their willies into dead pigs' mouths and eventually wrecking the country. Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:14 AM

"Well first of all you may not be able to afford it. So the devil take the hindmost, eh, Stu?"

Been there, done that; I WAS the hindmost at school and that is why I fight hard for my education and would have fought for my kids educations too, if I had any. Good state schools are being destroyed by the tories, so what choice is there for people?

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:00 AM

Hoi polloi = oiks like you shaw.(common people.) Very common in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:27 AM

Well first of all you may not be able to afford it. So the devil take the hindmost, eh, Stu?

I note, Iains, that your own education didn't run as far as apprising you of the correct meaning of hoi polloi. Look it up then enjoy a few hours of red-faced silence. And I'm not a scouser; in fact, apart from a three-day city break in 2012, I've only ever been to Liverpool once in my whole life. Making assumptions about people here is another trait you've adopted from Teribus. Baaaaa!

By the way, Shaw needs a capital S (unlike oik, which doesn't need a capital O). If you really want to gratuitously insult Diane Abbott about her body shape, you big baby, the spelling would have to be Abbopotamus, assuming you've derived the moniker from the bulky riparian beast's name. And I know the grave of Tom Cobley, a real person who's buried in the lovely churchyard in Spreyton in Devon. I recommend the Tom Cobley Inn while you're there. Note the spelling of Cobley. Tsk. More evidence of your threadbare education, I presume. No wonder you're so bitter! 😂

Great article in the Guardian today suggesting, seriously, that young offenders should be sent to public schools instead of Young Offenders' Institutions. The chances of that doing them more good by separating them from other offenders would be high and the country would save millions in the long run. If public schools had to do that I'd even let them keep their charitable status!

Subject: RE: BS: Boarding University!
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:24 AM

It seems the child is being totally ignored in this discussion

Really? You must have missed my post of around half an hour ago - two above yours - where putting the child first was the reason I said I can find boarding justifiable in the right circumstances.