BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018

Subject: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:08 PM

I'm starting this because although only recently started, these demonstrations and their causes have infiltrated a creditable thread about UK politics.

The New York Times article has more than one source. The headline, for instance, gives a number of dead that within the article states that has not been confirmed by Israeli sources.

Way down in the article there is mention made of preparations by Hamas involving destruction and violence. And that the Israelis have been preparing for violence.

Overall I'm prepared to say that any violence is wrong. There goes my virtuosity signal. I am sanguine that no rockets are going from Gaza into Israeli civilian areas (so far as I know).

I hope folks find this thread a place to make reasoned observations. I understand that there are disagreements ahead, but I for one will make a genuine attempt to be clear but not disagreeable.

The facts of the violence and deaths at hand I'd rather not bicker over. We are in the day of the drone. I expect that all sides will have drone shots and samples and interpretations. All sides are well aware of the potential for making themselves look good at the expense of their opponents.

Let's see how much light we can shed among the heat.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:20 PM

What appears to be happening is that a massive protest intended by the organisers to be non-violent is meeting a violent response by the authorities. That is a very familiar situation in numerous struggles struggles. We’ve seen it in British India, in South Africa, in the American South, in Norhern Ireland, in struggles all over the world.

Non-violence threatens authority in a serious way. That is especially true in the case of authorities that claim to represent democratic structures and principles. It threatened the British and American stare especially,and it threatens the Israeli authorities for the same reason. That means it is far more "dangerous" than violence. Violence can always be countered by greater violence.

And use of violence against non-violence carries the realistic hope of generating counter violence, and breaking down any sustainedcommitment to non-violent struggle.And of course in any struggle there will be those only too ready to cooperate in switching to a violent struggle. I can remember seeing that happen in a heartbreaking way in Northern Ireland back in 1969 to 1970.

The hope that this time that can be avoided is a slim one, but it still exists. It has to be based on a realisation that violence just plays into the hands of the authorities, gives them what they want, and that it is a kind of betrayal of the struggle. Those who respond violently will in truth be collaborating with the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:30 PM

"Way down in the article there is mention made of preparations by Hamas involving destruction and violence. And that the Israelis have been preparing for violence"

Sorry, but this simply won't do. You are pretending to try to get this off to an even-handed start but already you're making a false equivalence. The Israelis have a massive US-backed military, one of the biggest in the world. Hamas have nothing of the kind. This is as one-sided as a match between Real Madrid and Hartlepool second reserves. You mention violence for both. You mention destruction only by Hamas. You are as see-through as can be and you are not talking to fools here. We know exactly where you're coming from. Now would you like to start again?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:53 PM

I think a very good principle in any discussion, online or face-to-face, is to put any previous disagreements out of our minds, and try to start with a clean sheet.

That's not easy to do. Some people appear to think that it involves insincerity, being inauthentic. "Let it all hang out, be open about it, cut out the shillysallying, and get stuck in." But let's try it for once, couldn’t we. If we have the cheek to hope that the people facing the IDF can hold to non-violent resistance, in face of guns and mortars and gas, why not adopt a non-violent tactic here?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:18 PM

Good job robo, a thread guaranteed to bring the night crawlers to the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:25 PM

I think bob prefers a world of eternal antagonism and conflict
rather than mediation, peace making, and rebuilding...???

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:53 PM

And the first commentator to launch into mudslinging arrives right on cue.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:57 PM

bob - well tell me I am wrong... maybe you are a misunderstood disillusioned old hippy...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:10 PM

Steve, I felt the NY Times article itself to be a bit disingenuous, and I have not made a claim of 'even-handedness'. I have put forth an article and my reaction as OP. You can read the article or not and post your own interpretation of what are the 'facts'. You seem to want to comment on me, and I don't need that kind of flattery, speaking personally. Your words are really up to you and will reflect on you, as with me and everyone else who has and will post, MODERATORS WILLING.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:32 AM

nineteen dead and over a thousand wounded to date - the first "terrorist" to be killed (as I am sure he will be described) was a local farmer cutting beet (I'm sure one of his beet was packed with explosives, which was why tank-fire was required!!)
THe first round in the Sharpeville Gold Cup race
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

Hamas, once again, playing the media and the haters like a fiddle.........it's just so easy.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:41 AM

Yeah - it was their marksmen did the killing - the Israelis tried to stop it - just like Sabra/Shatila
Give us a break and stop blaming the victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:05 AM

"Way down in the article there is mention made of preparations by Hamas involving destruction and violence.} And that the Israelis have been preparing for violence."

That was you, not the article. Two sins by Hamas, one sin from Israel. Not a great way to kick off a fair discussion, is it.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:06 AM

Meant to highlight the word destruction there but point made.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:19 AM

If Israel has the right to exist, it must be allowed to prevent hostile incursion across its borders.

They tried tear gas but it did not stop them.
What did the "demonstrators" think would happen if they attacked the fence?

Why demonstrate by the border at all?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM

"Why demonstrate by the border at all?"
Maybe so thosde who have last their land to make toom for settlers might get their land back
There you go - another massacre for you to defend - and your not an extremist - are you ???
God preserve us from moderates like you!!
Jim Carroll!!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

There are no settlers in Gaza Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:43 AM

"What did the "demonstrators" think would happen if they attacked the fence?"

Might this have anything to do with protesting against a fence that wasn't on their land before...???

It's not easy keeping track of new borders and fences in this sorry war of attrition and land grabs...

It's not like they can avoid protesting by instead appealing to the local planning department,
like we can if a bullying neighbour encroaches on our back garden
with home extensions and fences...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:53 AM

"There are no settlers in Gaza Jim."
There are many millions of Palestinians who have been refused the right to return home -the largest group of exiled refugees on the planet - that is what the protest is about
I would have thought that a good Christian first question here would have been "why have unarmed protesters been massacred?" - especially at Easter
THere are Christians and Christians, it seems
Don't ever tell us you are a moderate again Keith - you are an appeaser of mass murder and you always have been
Don't forget your prayers before you go to bed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

Might this have anything to do with protesting against a fence that wasn't on their land before...???

The fence is within Israel's original border.

It's not easy keeping track of new borders and fences in this sorry war of attrition and land grabs...

New border? New fence?
They have been in place since Israel was created.
Is that your problem that you do not think Israel should exist.

That is an extraordinarily extreme view even for you people.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:26 AM

"That is an extraordinarily extreme view even for you people."

Keith - let's face it, you will never be respected and taken seriously
while you continue to make such idiotic exaggerated pronouncements...

Of course you completely ignored the vitally important word "might" with which I started my post.

A post that questions rather than expresses dogmatic statements...



"Is that your problem that you do not think Israel should exist."

In your desperate need to imply the worst in people who query your warped ideas,
have you forgotten I am part Jewish...
Though with empathy for, and a need to understand both sides of this conflict.

Btw.. when you use "you people" as a favoured dismissive insult,
the Jewish part of me could take offence
if I was over-sensitive and looking for that kind of thing out of context to take exception to...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:30 AM

Whenever the expression "You people" is used it tends to be a warning sign that the person using it is not reaching out a hand of friendship.

The fact that the present Israeli state sees the concept of the return of people to the land from which they have been forcibly excluded is an indication that there is something unhealthy in the current nature of that state. Zionism as it was originally conceived did not envisage the expulsion of the native population from the land to which they wished Jews to have a right to return, and to share it with them.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:02 AM

I need a short phrase to describe the group of same minded people who dominate these political threads.
DtG, PFR, Steve, Dave and Rag, currently absent.

It must not have any pejorative connotations, and I apologise unreservedly if my previous use of "you people" has led to any misunderstanding.

Please help me out.

The fact that the present Israeli state sees the concept of the return of people to the land from which they have been forcibly excluded

Israel is a tiny sliver of land and could not accommodate a million "returnees," few if any born in 1948,

In 1948 Israel did absorb on its tiny sliver expelled Jews from Arab states. Their numbers were much greater than that of displaced Arabs, who were not allowed to settle in all those vast Arab lands

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:20 AM

"I need a short phrase to describe the group of same minded people"
You have one Keith - "Left wing extremists"
I asked you to provide examples and you offer none so you lied
Try humanitarians then go and looki it up - it appears to be a foreign concept to you
"The fence is within Israel's original border."
You haven't answered the fact that Palestinian's for the largerst group of exked people on the planet thanks to Israeli ethnic cleansing
I suggested that you should have asked why these people were massacred - you didn't reply
"New border? New fence?"Go look at the"BEFORE and AFTER" maps and repeat that Keith
Your argument appears to be that, because Israel is "a tine sliver of land" it has the right to eveict anybody who gets in their way, despite the fact that they have lived theitr for many centuries - millennia even.
an interesting concept of Human Rights -lamost as interesting as giving the right to soldiers to shoot down unarmed protesters
Is this the "middle-of-the-road' ground you claim to occupy?
Interesting!!!J
I'd hate to meet those who drive either side of that particular road
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 20
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:22 AM

The whole ideology of Zionism is about the right to "return" of people on the basis that their ancestors were unjustly driven, together with a notion of a right as "descendants of Abraham" to live in "the Holy Land". Both those things are equally true of Palestinian Arabs.

Where is there any need or justification to have a collective term for a variety of people who happen to disagree with you on a particular issue, and who undoubtedly hold a wide range of views on many other issues (as some attention to other discussions in Mudcat threads would make abundantly clear)? I would surmise that in fact, even on the issue of Israel/Palestine there is quite a variety of views even among those who do disagree with your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:56 PM

"New border? New fence?"Go look at the"BEFORE and AFTER" maps and repeat that Keith

The border with Gaza now is exactly as it was in 1948.

Re. "You people."

OK if I revert to calling that specific named group "the pack" ?

Ians calls them "mudrats" but that could be seen as offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 01:13 PM

I refer to 'mudcat mates', whatever their qualities or obnoxious tendencies...

No need for 'us against them' in a small community where folks try to put up with each other
and get along...?????

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:08 PM

"The border with Gaza now is exactly as it was in 1948."
You haaave just been given the maps Keith
It takes a gread deal of stupidity to deny something that has been put in front of you
"OK if I revert to calling that specific named group "the pack" ?"
Cant speak for the rest but call me what you lik as long a you don't mind me calling you The Klan - if you wish to reveryt to insults instead of arguments again
In my life I've argued and discussed with people of every shade of politics and philosophy, from fanatical anarchists to extremists like the National Front and 'Keep Britain White
I can hand on-heart say I have never met such a hate-filled, irrational, inhuman individual like you
You are informed that there has been a massacre - your first instinct is to blame the victims - you have expressed no condemnation of this horrisuic event against unarmed protesters, you have shown not a shred of sympathy for those who died or have lost family members
Even before ht bastards who carried out his attack you have excused them, defended them and given them yor utmost cringing support
What kind of idividual does that - not a Christian (which you claim to nbe, not a rational Liberal - not even a human being
You are one sick cookie
As I said - call me what you like - I only have to remamber what an excuse for a human being you are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:21 PM

Jim,
You haaave just been given the maps Keith

Yes, but the "after" map did not show Gaza at all!

The border with Gaza is now exactly as it was in 1948.
Anything else I can educate you on?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:24 PM

McGrath would you also grant the right of return to the Jews who were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries and ethnically cleansed from the West Bank by Jordan?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

I should add in my previous question to McGrath to the Jews and their descendants.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:32 PM

If Israel was too small to begin with,
unable to cope with it's expanding birthrate and continuous influx of immigrant Jews from all over the globe...


How come they don't just build far more skyscraper apartments...???

.. just an innocent thought...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:47 PM

If Israel was too small to begin with,

Actually to begin with the territory initially allotted to the Jewish people for their national homeland comprised all of what is Israel today including Judea and Samaria and Gaza plus the territory comprising the country known today as Jordan which was then taken from the Jewish people and reconstituted into an Arab only country forbidden to habitation by Jews. Jordan comprises approximately 77% of the total land mass initially allotted to the Jewish people for their homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:06 PM

"McGrath would you also grant the right of return to the Jews who were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries and ethnically cleansed from the West Bank by Jordan?"

Of course I would. If a just settlement in Israel/Palestine can be achieved, there is no reason that that could not in time be achieved. After all Germany now welcomes the return of Jewish exiles, and the rebuilding of Jewish communities. There is no reason why in time the same could be true. In the cases of Arab countries. So far as antisemitism is concerned Arab countries have a far better record in history than most European countries.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:05 PM

Well McGrath, we have a little problem there in that the majority of the Arab countries that expelled their Jewish citizens, citizens who I might add can often trace their citizenry in those countries back 2000 years, have official policies that forbid entry to their countries to Jews. Also the stated policy of the Palestinian Authority is that their future state will be Judenrein. Those inconvenient little truths are conveniently overlooked by those who are intent on demonizing Israel.

Here are some government policies that Jews would face if they were permitted to return to the countries where they lived for generations:

More on this subject to be found HERE

In Libya, in 1953, Jews were subjected to restrictions and became victims of economic boycotts. The Maccabi sports club was forcibly opened to Arab members in 1954. A decree was issued on 9 May 1957 obliging Libyans with relatives in Israel to register at the Libyan boycott office, even though at that point, 90 percent of the Jews had already left. On 3 December 1958, Tripoli’s Jewish community ceased to be an independent entity. Thereafter it was overseen by a state-appointed commissioner. Legal exclusion worsened. In 1960, Jews were prohibited from acquiring new possessions. They were no longer allowed to vote, hold public office, or serve in the army or the police. On 2 April 1960, Alliance Israélite Universelle schools were closed.

Similar developments occurred in Lebanon. As early as 1947, Jewish students were expelled from Beirut University. Jewish “Zionist” organizations (such as the Maccabi sports club) were forbidden. Jews were discharged from public service positions and Jewish youth movements banned.

In Iraq, Jewish history and Hebrew language instruction were prohibited in Jewish schools during the 1920s. Jews were expelled from public service and education in the 1930s. The Jewish schools’ curricula were censored in 1932.

In Iran, Zionist activities (differentiated from “Jewish” activities) were banned in 1979. In 2000, discrimination developed in public service, universities, and public companies.

In Yemen, sharia law was instated in 1913, worsening the situation of the dhimmi. Decrees specifying forced conversion for orphans were issued between 1922 and 1928, while Jews were excluded from public service positions and the army.

In Syria, real estate purchase was prohibited to Jews in 1947, and Jews began to be discharged from public service positions. In 1967, Muslim principals were appointed to Jewish schools.

In Morocco, after independence in 1956, a process of Arabization of public services began, cutting the Jews off from the larger society. A dahir (decree) Moroccanizing Jewish charitable organizations was issued on 26 November 1958, endangering their freedom.

In Egypt, a long process of discrimination in the public service began in 1929. In 1945-1948, Jews were excluded from the public service. In 1947, Jewish schools were put under surveillance and forced to Arabize and Egyptianize their curricula. Community organizations were forced to submit their member lists to the Egyptian state after May 1948 and until 1950. In 1949, Jews were forbidden to live in the vicinity of King Farouk’s palaces.

In Tunisia, a law concerning Judaism (11 July 1958) put an end to Jewish communities, replaced them with temporary “Israelite worship commissions,” and suppressed the personal status of the Jews (inherited from the dhimmi status, which obliged the Jews to depend on their religious tribunals for all matters related to their personal status). In Tunisia too, independence (1956) led to the Tunisification of public services.

Turkey under the Young Turks (1923-1945) created hard-labor battalions for non-Muslim conscripts in May 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:44 PM

The case of Germany and in fact other European nations is relevant in this context, both when it comes to generating antisemitism, and in recovering from it. We have in many ways a far worse record of antisemitism than the Arab countries. In many ways the developments you list, bodacious, are best seen as cases of Westernisation on the part of those countries, following the lead of their richer and more powerful neighbours to the North; and of course the events in Palestine had a major role in encouraging those kind of thing.

If there were a solution in Israel/Palestine, whether that involved two states, separate cantons within one stare, or a unified state, that would remove the factor that prevents a movement of reconciliation within the whole region, There are certainly no reason, for example, to believe that Morocco could not come to welcome the return of its exiled ancient Jewish community, which had lived there for thousands of years, with roots far older than the Jewish Dispersion from Palestine in the first century. Is it suggested that Moroccans are genetically antisemitic in a way that Germans and other Europeans are not?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:49 PM

"Bodacious" That wasn't me engaging in the common practice of mocking the names of people with whose views I am engaged, a practice I detest. It was my iPad thinking it knew better than I did, and putting in the word it thought I was trying to write. I intended to write "bobad".

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:00 PM

Anything else I can educate you on?"
Piss of, you arrogant twat
The whole conflict is based on the seizure of land that was allocated to teh Palestinians - teh only reason Israel has not been tried for land stealing and human rights abuses is that it is protected by around 100 US vetoes - pretty well the same as Russia and China protected Assad for his atrocities

AMNESTY "LAND GRAB" STATEMENT

The massacre you are so fanatically defendeig took place because of these land siezures
What kind of a sick individuals are you?
I don't kno about educating - you need psycholgical help
Sick bastard!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:22 PM

Some background on those poor, innocent, peaceful demonstrators so callously targeted by the vile Jewish demons:

1. Mosa'ab Salol — 23 years old, resident of Zo'ida, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's military wing. Neutralized by IDF troops near the Northern Gaza Strip as he and an accomplice fired at the troops.
2. Sari Abu Odeh — 28 years old, resident of Beit Hanoun, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's military wing in the Beit Hanoun Battalion.
3. Jihad Frina — 35 years old, resident of Sheikh Radwan, Company Commander in the Hamas terror organization's military wing.
4. Ahmad Odeh — 19 years old, resident of Gaza City, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's Shati Battalion.
5. Hamdan Abu Amshe — 25 years old, resident of Beit Hanoun, active operative of the Hamas terror organization.
6. Muhammad Rahmi — 33 years old, resident of Shuja'iyya Turkman, active operative of the Hamas terror organization.
7. Muhammad Abu Amro — 27 years old, resident of Shuja'iyya Turkman, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's tunnel-digging initiatives.
8. Abed Elrahman Abed Elnabi — 20 years old, resident of Lahia, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's military wing.
9. Ebraheem Abu Sha'er — 29 years old, resident of Rafah, active operative of the Islamic Jihad.
10. Jihad Zuhier Salman Abu Jamos — 30 years old, resident of Bani Suheila, active operative of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:03 PM

ter bullshit Bobad - nobody could possible have gathered this information in day
You carefully did not link your list - little wonder -
HERE IS YOUR SOURCE - an extremist right-wing blog inspired by Shin Bet
The Bloggers are described thus in their Wiki entry

"According to a report published in October 2009 by Inter Press Service, StandWithUs has received funds from a "web of funders who support organisations that have been accused of anti-Muslim propaganda and encouraging a militant Israeli and U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East." The organization countered by stating, "Radical Islam has impacted the Middle East greatly. All this stuff comes from a very fundamentalist religious position and looking at it does not make you right- or left-wing."[20][21][22]
In response to a December 2011 article in The Forward,[23] Rothstein wrote a letter to the editor criticizing the newspaper's attempt “to discredit us as 'right wing.'” She stated that "StandWithUs does not and has never advocated specific policies for Israel” and that its work is “not contingent on which parties are in power"; rather, she wrote, its goal “has been to counter the vicious anti-Israel, anti-Semitic propaganda campaign that was unleashed along with the intifada in September 2000" by helping "to educate the public about Israel and empower others to educate their communities." Rothstein stated that "Israel is the only modern state whose right to exist is still questioned. If you consider support for the existence of the Jewish state a right-wing position, then indeed we are right wing. Yet you repeatedly confused anti-Israel propaganda with 'reasonable criticism' of Israeli policies."[24]
In response to an open letter in Billboard Magazine by the Creative Community for Peace (CCFP) titled “200 Hollywood Heavyweights Support Israel”, some media and activists asked whether Hollywood stars like Ziggy Marley, Seth Rogen and Sarah Silverman were aware that the “Creative Community for Peace” was “a sanitizing front for the right-wing, pro-settler organization StandWithUs, that has deep ties to the Israeli government”.[25]
In January 2015, StandWithUs announced a possible partnership for a joint social media program with the National Information Directorate of the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office focused on Israel education.[26] The partnership however, never took place and StandWithUs remains an independent non-profit organization.[27]

The first rule of carrying out atrocities is to denigrate the victims - this is a crued and cruelk attempt to do that to the victims of a massace who ares still warm
You people really are disgusting non-humans
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:09 PM

Full entry for STAND WITH US
A step up from your usual "Muslim Watch" and "White Supremist", but only just
Are you not capable of decent, honest argument ?
I think you've made my case about Israeli extremism pretty well if this is all yuo can come up with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:51 PM

Here is a post I just did on the other thread, which should really be about the current attack on Jeremy Coor6n, and which really belongs over here:


In any situation like this it is always claimed initially that the victims were there as supporters of violent struggle. Remember Bloody Sunday?

Sometimes of course this can be the case. It is perfectly possible for someone who has seen violence as the only option to be brought to try another kind of struggle. In fact, unless people who have been committed to violence can do this, there can be little hope of escaping the tragic game of atrocity and response arrocity, which has lasted for decades.

The stated aims of the people organising this campaign has been to engage in nonviolent struggle, meaning the use of tactics that are not intended to kill opponents. The fact that all the dead so far have been protestors is evidence that the protesters have been holding to that. The common practice of the authorities in situations like this invariably is to undermine protesters' claims to be nonviolent as false, either by provoking violent response, or by demonstrating that victims were really terrorists, in some cases by falsifying evidence and planting weapons. Or of course by defining slingshots and stones as equivalent to guns and bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

I suspect that if it was any country other than Israel then the international condemnation, of what we see taking place,
would be overwhelming.
But having carefully created a situation where any criticism of Israeli government action is considered antisemitic, they have free rein to carry out activities most people despise.
It is long past time thus cloak was obliterated and the actions can be clearly seen for what they are.
It is significant that The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a number of resolutions saying that the strategic relationship with the United States encourages Israel to pursue aggressive and expansionist policies and practices.
,

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:00 PM

Well said, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:26 PM

Drink to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:16 PM

Y'mean the condemation of Russia/ Bashar Assad for the destruction wrought on Syrian civilians?

The condemnation of Russia for the destruction wrought on Ukraine (and Dutch) civilians?

The condemnation of Saudi Arabia /Yemen (or Iran /Huthies) for destruction/ starvation of Yemeni civilians?

The condemnation of People's Republic of Congo for the destruction of Congolese institutions and infrastructure?

The condemnation of Sudan/ South Sudan for the depradations on Sudanese/ South Sudanese?

The condemnation of Eritrea for depradations on Eritrean people and ethnic minorities in that sad state?

Oh, and there's always been North Korea? Let's give them a break becuase that's all gonna get sorted out real soon!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:42 PM

Robo - There are definitely some extremely shit people ruling countries...
Religion and ethnicity are the least factors...
shit people are just shit people...

the arse of the world needs to be wiped.....

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:55 AM

Israel has refused to hold an enquiry into this massacre of unarmed dmonstratiors - no surprise there
They have decided that ten of those murdered were "terrorists" based on the figure claimed by Shinn Bet five hours after the killings took place
Israel should be congratulated for the miraculous ability of its marksmen in identifying and identifying and taking out so many terrorists among so many thousands of demonatrators
"Another massacre for old Israel" as the song nearly said!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

The Israeli military on Saturday night identified 10 of the 15 people reported killed during violent protests along the Gaza security fence as members of Palestinian terrorist groups, and published a list of their names and positions in the organizations.

Hamas admits that five were theirs.
Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation.

I am just stating facts. Do not accuse me of supporting anything or anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:51 PM

When did they identify them, Keith? Before or after they summarily slaughtered them?

Beats having to apply the death penalty via the justice system any day. None of that expensive trial-by-jury crap and all that adverse publicity that always comes with having to hang people, etc., not to speak of tbe expense of keeping them on death row for months or years. Much easier to kill the bastards in cold blood first then bleat that they were terrorists anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:05 PM

The relevant thing in any case would not be whether those killed were members of this or that, but whether they were engaged in terrorist activity when they were killed.

This was planned and organised as an essentially non-violent demonstration. The fact that all those killed and virtually all those injured were Arabs is evidence that those taking part stuck to that pretty well. No doubt there will have been many members of Hamas and other organisations who will have taken part in it. I am reminded of Bloody Sunday when the IRA issued strict orders that guns should not be taken by any IRA supporters who took part.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:12 PM

In spite of the fact that Israel will not hold an enquiry, suspicious in the extreme, expect two of our local residents to rush in to defend these atacks. And round and round and round we go...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:45 PM

This was planned and organised as an essentially non-violent demonstration.

Planned and organized by a terrorist group committed to killing Jews. If you believe that you may be interested in a good deal I can get you on a bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:56 PM

"I am just stating facts. Do not accuse me of supporting anything or anyone."
Course not Keith - would you do such a thing?
"Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation."
So what Keith - Hamas is the party elected to lead the Palestinian people so in fact the Israelis murdered statesmen
Hamaas is the only organisation that stands between Israel and total ethnic cleansing
Israel came into being thanks to terrorist organisations like Hagannah, The Stern Gang and IRGUN ZVA’I LEUMI and those ACTS OF TERROR are still celebrated
Menachem Begin was a terrorist who later became Prime Minister, Moise Dayan was a member of Irgun and later became a statesman
I have little doubt that, should the Palestinian people survive Israeli ETHNIC CLEANSING, many now regarded as "terrorists will be accepted as statesmen
There is a war taking place Keith - every nation at war uses terrorism - incliding Britain and (especially the United States
Beside the point
When Israel conducted their massacre *(which they have refused to hold an enquiry over) they fired indiscriminately into an unarmed crowd - just as the South African Apartheid regime did at Sharpville
One more you are defending teh indiscriminate slaughter of unarmed civilians - your forte, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:58 PM

Absolute rubbish. It's impossible to have any sort of rational discussion with you. You are utterly blinkered and obsessed and desperately filled with blind hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:59 PM

That was to bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:23 PM

The March for Return is not organised by Hamas. Of the 20 organisers two are members of Hamas, the rest have various left backgrounds. Here is an article with an interview with Hasan alKurd, a chief organiser who has no Hamas connections, but a history of commitment to nonviolence as the only way forward. The article comes from "972 magazine" which was set up in Israel a few years ago by some Israelis who disagree with their government's policy and practice.

In it he repeatedly emphasises the intention of organisers to avoid the use of violence by those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:32 PM

They tried suicide bombers - that didn't work, they tried rockets - that didn't work, they tried tunnels - that didn't work, this is their latest gambit and make no mistake about it their goal is to kill Jews and it won't work this time.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:04 PM

I suppose there were some people said that kind of thing about Martin Luther King, and actually convinced themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:11 PM

I must say that is the stupidest false equivalence ever seen here, and there have been plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:56 PM

FWIW today's New York Times Editorial. The headline mentions Israel, but it hits Palestinians, too:

Israel Courts Catastrophe

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:38 AM

"The headline mentions Israel, but it hits Palestinians, too:"
That seems to be a fairly even handed description of what's happening Robo - thanks
"I must say that is the stupidest false equivalence ever seen her"
It would to someone who has claimed that the Paletinians have no right to live where they have lived for over a thousand years Bobad
"They tried suicide bombers - that didn't work, they tried rockets"
Just count the casualty figures - it has always been a David and Goliath battle
The Heroes of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943 fought with petrol bombs, sniper rifles, barricades and in the end, tunnels - they didn't work either - they ended up in the extermination camps
We still recognise them as heroes - not terrorists
"That was to bobad."
That's a relief - thought you might have caught something off Keith!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

Last week Hasan Al-Kurd said in an interview:

“We will start the march of return on March 30, but the idea is to keep going, and gather more and more people. Within one week, we’re hoping to have at least 50,000 people close to the border. After that, we will advance 100 meters closer to the border.”

He stressed repeatedly that that the protest would be completely nonviolent, contrary to how it was being described in Israeli media.

“We want families. We want to send a message that we want to live in peace — with the Israelis. We’re against stone throwing or even burning tires. We will make sure the protest doesn’t escalate to violence — at least from our end.”

Organizers were fearful that because the Israeli media was portraying the return march as a Hamas-organized event, and considering the increasing number of border incidents in recent weeks, that the Israeli army would mete out deadly force on their nonviolent initiative.

That was of course what has happened. That comes from this source: https://nedhamsonsecondlineviewofthenews.com/2018/03/27/

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:44 AM

Conveniently overlooking the fact that the "non violent" protestors attacked the Israeli defense forces with stones from slings, fire bombs, burning tires and gunfire and attempted to infiltrate Israeli territory by cutting the border fence and planting IEDs. This is nothing but a deliberate attempt to provoke a violent confrontation with Israel.??? Hamas bears sole responsibility for the violence. Israel, like every other sovereign country, has the right to defend itself from those who would do it harm.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:17 AM

" "non violent" protestors attacked the Israeli defense forces with stones from slings, "
After it had been announced that Israel were sending in 100 snipers
Theere was no gunfire reported and no guns evident - that is a lie
The events swere filmed and attended by neutral witnesses
Catapults - there goes that David and Goliath analogy again
"Israel, like every other sovereign country, has the right to defend itself from those who would do it harm."
And Israel has the duty to answer to teh shooting down of protesters - or did we gravely misjudge thos besmirchech thos Sharpville sharpshooters
Once again Israel and her supporters are blaming the victims for getting killed
Sick

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:27 AM

You should know by now, Jim, that the first casualty of war is bobad's analytical ability.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:29 AM

Bob - so then, what's your recipe for a peaceful resolution to this never ending conflict...???

Come on, be constructive - you do want peace, don't you...???

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

Remember how at Orgrieve the miners were accused of starting the violence by attacking the police, who then responded by having a mounted charge and in other ways? When in fact it was later proved that it had been the other way round?

In any large protest there are liable to be those who respond violently, throwing missiles and so forth. That can happen even when those organising wholly oppose that, as here. It happened in the Civil Rights campaigns in America, in Gandhi's campaigns, in Northern Ireland and in many other situations. That is likely to be welcomed by the authorities, since it undermines the protest. Sometimes it is even carried out by infiltrators.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:41 AM

Bob - so then, what's your recipe for a peaceful resolution to this never ending conflict...???

What conflict are you referring to? Gaza is not occupied by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

Bob - start by picking one you think could start the peace train rolling...
This your opportunity to show your human side...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

Ok Punkster, how about a liberation movement by the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank against those who are oppressing them - Hamas and Fatah. Once their freedom is gained and the dictatorship replaced with moderate leaders whose priority is the welfare of it's citizens rather than the destruction of Israel only then will peaceful coexistence be achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM

Are you going to back up your claims of an vilolent protest Bodbad?
No?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:09 AM

"Take, for example, the recent events in Gaza. This past Friday, before the first night of Passover, the Palestinian-Arab terrorist group Hamas launched a series of protests on the Gaza Strip near the Israeli border. Over the course of the afternoon, the protests turned violent, as Palestinian-Arabs heaved rocks and firebombs towards the border fence and sent tires engulfed in flames towards Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) responded in kind by targeting those civilians instigating violence or attempting to breach the border wall. "


http://thefederalist.com/2018/04/03/western-media-scrub-mention-hamas-headlines-israeli-clash/

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM

those civilians instigating violence or attempting to breach the border wall.

Calling members of the terrorist groups Hamas, Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad, and a salafist group civilians is a misnomer.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:29 AM

But Bobad, if they are being shot at they MUST be civilians- Jut ask their supporters here.


If it was an Israeli crowd, throwing stones and firebombs at a Palestinian area, they MIGHT have a different viewpoint. Is that really what they want to see? ( re the David and Goliath talk.)

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:49 AM

"But Bobad, if they are being shot at they MUST be civilians-"
Why not - Isral has a long record of taking part in MURDERING CIVILIANS - especially unarmed one - with a neat twist of disemboweling pregnant women for good measue
"If it was an Israeli crowd, throwing stones and firebombs at a Palestinian area, they MIGHT have a different viewpoint. "
The Israelis settle for trained troops, tanks, heavy artillery, anti personnel missiles and chemical weapons for that Bruce
Wouldn't like to experience either, but given a choice..... !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:03 AM

"tanks, heavy artillery, anti personnel missiles and chemical weapons"

The Palestinian favorite is to place a tire filled with gasoline around the neck of the victim ( hands tied) and light it on fire. Sure makes their elections festive, changing peoples' hearts and minds.

Sorry, it is Hamas that has (and uses on civilian populations) the anti personnel missiles.

NO-ONE has used chemical weapons, unlike the government side in Syria. But I guess if Arabs use chemical weapons on other Arabs, you are ok with that.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:07 AM

This your opportunity to show your human side...

BTW Punky, are you implying because I support Israel and its right to defend itself against terrorism that makes me somehow inhuman or less human than you?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM

Bob - nope.. simply referring to your usual persona as an antagonistic old point scorer, habitually dismissive of other points of view...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

..and you do tend to give off vibes that you are in no hurry to see an end to violent conflict in this region under discussion...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:38 AM

simply referring to your usual persona as an antagonistic old point scorer, habitually dismissive of other points of view...

Well, the same can be said for most of the posters here including yourself, if you want to go that route.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

"The Palestinian favorite is to place a tire filled with gasoline around the neck of the victim"
Go caount the casualty list Bruce and then come back an tell us who has slaughtered the most and who has the most efficient at it
There is no need for any of this slaughter so, in order to understand it you need face its causes and not just blame one side
White florescence was acknowledged to be "chemical weapons" when the Israelis finally agreed to end its use - under pressure from the photographs of children with their faces burned away
The ineffectual rockets (go compare the casualties to one day of any of the military incursions) do not match up to the flechette fragment bombs found to have been used during the last invasion of Gaza
Killing civilians became a blood sport when the Isreali death squads went out mopping up survivors amid the rubble of their homes (reported by Israeli soldiers and ignored)
How long do you want to go on with this Bruce - this war is about land seizure and ethnic cleansing, and their ain't no Palestinians doing that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:43 AM

"usual persona as an antagonistic old point scorer, habitually dismissive of other points of view... "

Unlike Mr Shaw and Carroll?





"No-one is quite so blind..."



As for a peaceful resolution, as long as one side ( the Palestinians, in case you don't know) have committed to the entire removal of the other side, there will be no peace. As long as the Moslim side insists that all the Jews must be removed (after losing in Arab military attacks the areas they had previously removed Jews from,) there can be no peace as long as even one Jew is there. The Palestinians have stated so.


Too bad the Mandate Palestine ARAB MOSLIM homeland (TransJordan, 77% of Mandate Palestine, with NO JEWS permitted to settle) did not accept the 640,000 Moslim refugess from 1948, as the Mandate Palestine JEWISH homeland ( less than 33% of Mandate Palestine) accepted all of the 820,000+ Jewish refugees ( who wished to settle in Israel- some went to other nations driven from Arab nations. It was the Arab League that kept the Palestinians in camps, and would not allow them to immigrate to Arab countries.

The PEACE TREATY between Israel and Jordan specifically states that Jordan DOES NOT include the West Bank- THAT was part of the Jewish Homeland portion of Mandate Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:45 AM

..and you do tend to give off vibes that you are in no hurry to see an end to violent conflict in this region under discussion...

I support the side that has repeatedly made proposals to end the conflict only to be continuously rebuffed by the other side. I'm not the one who is in no hurry to see the end of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:49 AM

So, Mr Carroll, you are basically saying that if the casualties are not equal, the side with the lower deaths is at fault?

So you support the Nazis against Britain (Bombing of Germany killed far more Germans [CIVILIANS!] than German bombing of Britain), and the Russians against the Finns in WW II?


Or are you only saying it applies to Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:55 AM

So... bitter held grudges from the past aren't exactly achieving much towards peace settlements then...???

But if bob and Bruce can at least consider discussing possible options for peace in a thread like this,
then there is some potential hope for constructive debate,
rather than the usual two way trading of insults between the 'pros and antis'...

After all perpetual point scoring for the sake of it get's us nowhere...[as much fun as it might be...???}

As for me, I don't hold a position either way, I need to learn far more
from both sides to construct an informed opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:59 AM

I need to learn far more
from both sides to construct an informed opinion...

The information is out there, inform yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:07 AM

bob - In a perfect world, we could all enjoy the luxury of unlimited time to read up on all sorts of things.
Right now it's a matter of prioritising and balancing day to day domestic commitments and problems,
and concentrating on more immediate UK political concerns that can affect my family and future...

Believe it or not, that's why I settled on mudcat as a convenient source of condensed information and debate...

... that's sad...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:15 AM

A significant problem is that the backers of the Moslim Palestinian side have a fundamental flaw in many of their arguments:


They claim the Israelis have no claim on the land because the Jews were driven off ( debatable, but that is the claim.) by later groups. But the Israelis should not be allowed to drive off the Palestinians, because Palestinians had possession of the land ( again, debatable ( See history of Ottoman Empire)) in the past.

So the Israelis have to give the land to the Palestinians because the Palestinians were there before ( sort of like the Jews were, but never mind),but after the Jews had been.

The previous owner has the right to the land, except if the owner was Jewish.


BTW, the Palestinians I know and grew up around were members of one of the 6 founding families of Ramallah- ALL ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN. Seems that the Palestinians in place now are NOT the same ones who were there before 1948 - SO WHO are the Israelis supposed to give the land to?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

"So, Mr Carroll, you are basically saying that if the casualties are not equal, the side with the lower deaths is at fault"
No I am saying that there is a war on, that war has atrocities committed by both sides as does every war - so instead of throwing "my atrocity is not as bad as your atrocity" bombshells at each other we need to come to terms with the rights and wrongs
Not so long ago I watched the documentary firm 'The Gatekeepers", wher six former heads of Israeli security compared the lenghts they went to with the of the Nazis (since oyu choose to mention them) - one describd the present regime as a "bunch of Nazis"
Around the same time I watched a CBS history programme using archive footing of Israeli soldiers during the Six Day War describing how selected prisoners were chosen to execute their fellow-combatants, without trial, then were taken off and shot themselves
You can't beat horses-mouth evidence like that
This is a dirty war - as far as I am concerned, one side is fighting for their homes - the other for a 'Pure Nation'
The world has been here before
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:23 AM

So, Israel is fighting for the ONLY Jewish state as a home, and the Palestinians are fighting for a "Pure Nation" free of Jews.

I can agree with you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:27 AM

"They claim the Israelis have no claim on the land because the Jews were driven off "
And Golda Meir said "there is no such person as a Palestinian", Netanyahu described them as "crocodiles" and the Father of Israel admitted way back that "we have stolen their land - if I were an Arab I wouldn't deal wit the Israelis"
This can take as long as your "your atrocity is worse than mine" exchange idf that's what you wish - but you can d it on your own
Your refusal to discuss what is happening and why is a perfect example of why this killing is taking place
The Jews I grew up with and mixed with must be sick to the back teeth of all this - I know some who have said as much - but they are probably "self haters" (surely that term, in itself is an indication of how sick this all is)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:36 AM

-The Palestinians I grew up with had nothing but disgust for the permanent refugees, held by the Arab League in concentration camps to breed suicide troops for the next attack on Israel.


So we each have our opinions. YOU have refused discussion- I have merely presented the side you refuse to acknowledge exists.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

"So, Israel is fighting for the ONLY Jewish state as a home, and the Palestinians are fighting for a "Pure Nation" free of Jews."
Nope - we know who is doing the actual ethnic leansing
Try those links to the Isreali statistics - 55% of Israeli citizens support ethnic cleansing (Jerusalem post) or "African refugees are Cancers" (also Jerusalem Post)
I've always cherished teh "If your not part f teh solution, you are paertt of the problem"
You are the only Jew I have ever come across who has excused the Israelis of supporting antisemitism because "it's the lesser of two evils" - remembering that THIS WAS ONE OF THEM
What could possibly be worse than that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

As compared to the Palestinians who support killing all the Jews? ( See Hamas charter


"[TABLET]: Any Jew who is inside the borders of Palestine will have to leave?

[AREIKAT]: Absolutely. I think this is a very necessary step, before we can allow the two states to somehow develop their separate national identities, and then maybe open up the doors for all kinds of cultural, social, political, economic exchanges, that freedom of movement of both citizens of Israelis and Palestinians from one area to another. You know you have to think of the day after."


So we DO know who is demanding ethnic cleansing- as they did in 1948-1967 in the territories conquered ( By military force) by the Arab League.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:59 AM

“We want families. We want to send a message that we want to live in peace — with the Israelis. We’re against stone throwing or even burning tires. We will make sure the protest doesn’t escalate to violence — at least from our end.”

But of course all Palestinians are dedicated to driving out all Jewish Israelis, rather than finding a way to share the country they both see as home. Stand to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 12:16 PM

I never said ALL- But I will say more than the "55% of Israeli citizens support ethnic cleansing " Mr Carroll uses to condemn all Israelis.


OK?

The numbers I have seen in past polls were 85-93% against any Jews in Palestinian state. (The Palestinian government is quoted above.)

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM

"As compared to the Palestinians who support killing all the Jews? ( See Hamas charter"
As compared to the Israelis who are actually killing the Jews
The fact that you refuseto what is happening and why it is happening and refuse to iscuss facts like "55% of Isralis support ethnic cleansing" and "African refugees are cancers" explains perfectly why you have no objecton to Israel supporting the groups who sent six million of your people to their deaths puts your position xacrtly where it is
You are an appeaser of fascism and anti-semitism - that's why you are not worth talking to
My family took to the streets in the thirties to stop people like you now there appears to be a fifth column created by the Isreali regime
Finished here
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 12:55 PM

"As compared to the Palestinians who support killing all the Jews? ( See Hamas charter"
So threatening to kill your perscutor is worse than avctually murdering six million Jews
Must write that down
And you call me an antisemite!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:09 PM

Yes I do.

But we will both end up at heaven's gate to be judged- and I will arrive with a clear conscience. Can you say the same?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:47 PM

"Yes I do."
But it's you who has blamed the Jewish people for the atrocities of Israel and it's the Israelis who have claimed that tha their actions are being acarried out bon behalf of the Jewish people
You don't for one minute believe me to be antisemitic otherwise you would be claiming my offer of a generous donation to your named charity
It's stood for several years now and none of you have ever at any time attempted to claim it
You don't have to wait for divine judgement (which I dismiss as a fairy -story anyway) - it's on hand waiting for the asking
Not do you believe the shit about the Arab threat to kill all Jews - that is just an excuse to appease Israel's massacres
Israel is a nuclear power with a highly trained and well equipped army compared to what amounts to little more than a society of settled tribesmen - no standing army, no sophisticated equipment -
This is the bullshit all bullies use to excuse their picking on the vulnerable
Any killing that has been done by the Palestinians is a natural response to decades of land and home seizure and greations-worth of persecution and humiliation
This has always been a one-sided fight - the olny reason Israel hasn't ended in the war crimes court has been over one hundred U.S. vetoes
Now - my antisemitism - any claims yet?
No?
Thought not!
Your open support for consorting with facscist organisations makes you a supreme antisemite
Who knows, maybe the FUTURE GENERATIONS will sort it out, but what a shitty job you peole have left them
Jim Carroll


Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:51 PM

Why waste time doubting the sincerity of people we are arguing with?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:30 PM

One example that illustrates how the media is being played by Hamas, as usual, in this deadly game of terrorist theater:

Meet Mohammad Abu Amr, one of those killed in the recent “March of Return” riots. To an international, English-speaking audience, he was a well-known carver of sand.

Mohammad Abu Amr well known carver of sand

To an Arabic-speaking audience, he was an aspiring carver of innocent people.

Martyr al-Qassami/Mohammad Naeem Abu Amr

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:31 PM

Lol......Hamas is receiving criticism from Palestinian analysts and activists for the mistake of publishing photos of "martyred" terrorists dressed in their terrorist regalia and being given military funerals. It kinda blows their attempt to hoodwink the world about the "peaceful" nature of the protest right out of the water.

As one veteran Palestinian journalist commented: "Hamas has done damage to the Palestinian account that states that the demonstrations were peaceful and nonviolent."

One Palestinian political analyst said that it was wrong for Hamas fighters to approach the security fence because many of them were on Israel’s list of wanted terrorists.

Hamas is also being criticized for hijacking the demonstration and for counting coup with the blood of its "martyrs" and injured.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:32 PM

Powerful words from Giulio Meotti in Arutz Sheva International news:

If the 30.000 Palestinians were allowed to cross those borders, instead of dead terrorists, we would have had dead Israelis. Would the world be more satisfied?


The world goes for Israel's throat

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:47 PM

Bobad is a compete obsessive. I suggest that we all completely ignore his poisonous posts.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:55 PM

Steve:
What is wrong with bobad's posts? I've read logical points which tend to connect the dots. You respond by attacking the poster.

It is indeed curious when a 'martyr' has pre-planned photos and screeds ready to go in a supposedly peaceful demonstration.

I think it is because the Palestinians execute ALL routes to their goal at once, despite them ostensibly eschewing violence (in this case). It's like trying to play football by attempting to intercept, sneak, and pass all at the same time. The goal is still the goal, but each attempt tries to pass it off differently to the outside world.

How about you suggesting some rational behaviours on the part of the people we are talking about, rather than the people doing the talking?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:05 PM

Why is this man's opinion in the slightest bit interesting Bobad?
He is an extremist right-wing Zionist of the worst kind who believes that every critic of Israel is an antisemite and that Jew who criticise the regime are "self-haters"
As a journalist, he has a reputation as plagiarist who lifts the writing of others wholesale and publishing them as his own
Dredging up anything saying the right thing is meaningless and a sign of desperation
REad and enjoy an assessment of him - read in particular the long list of those he describes as antisemitic = Jews who critcise Israel he describes as being "DERANGED"
A truely fanatical racist madmant
You appear to have excelled yourself in your search to find suppoerters of mass-murder
Jim Carroll

Giulio Meotti is an Italian journalist who writes on Middle Eastern and Jewish issues. He is a strong advocate of Israel, and is critical of both the Catholic Church[1] and of Jews who are themselves critical of Israel, regarding them as abettors of anti-semitism. He was subject to accusations of engaging in plagiarizing the work of other journalists, and since has worked for Il Foglio and Arutz Sheva.
In his book Jews against Israel (2014)[6] Meotti took to task a large number of Jewish critics of Israel's behavior towards Palestinians, accusing them variously of intellectual treason, Jewish anti-Semitism, of being self-hating Jews[3] as suffering from what in his view was a 'pathology' of Jewish anti-israelism or as being 'deranged' (squilibrati) Jew-haters'. The list of notable Jews he censures for their attitudes towards Israel and defense of human rights of Palestinians includes George Steiner, the philosopher Hannah Arendt, the Franco-German politician Daniel Cohn-Bendit,[7] the former Chancellor of Austria Bruno Kreisky, Pulitzerprize-winning playright and screenwriterTony Kushner, director Steven Spielberg, British historian Eric Hobsbawm, the bioethics and moral philosopher Peter Singer, British politician Gerald Kaufman, French journalist Jean Daniel, French essayist Dominique Vidal, the Argentinian civil rights activist Jacobo Timerman, rabbi Arnold Wolf philosopher Edgar Morin, the United Nations special rapporteur for Palestinian rights Richard A. Falk, the American historian Norman Finkelstein, English film, director Mike Leigh, neuroscientist Steven Rose and his wife, the sociologist Hilary Rose, rabbi Michael Lerner, Nobel-prize winning dramatist Harold Pinter, philosopher Judith Butler, the historian Tony Judt, the orientalist scholar Maxime Rodinson, Italian novelist Natalia Ginzburg, the Italian Germanist Cesare Cases, the antifascist intellectual Emilio Sereni, the poet and literary critic Franco Fortini, the Italian journalist Gad Lerner, the Italian Yiddish playwright and musician Moni Ovadia,[7] the Israeli biochemist and philosopher of Judaism Yeshayahu Leibowitz, the Israeli historian Shlomo Sand, the Israeli political geographer Oren Yiftachel, the Israeli political scientist Neve Gordon, the Israeli journalist Amira Hass Israeli historian Moshe Zimmermann, the Israeli historian Ilan Pappé, the Israeli conflict theorist Lev Grinberg, the Israeli historians Tom Segev and Idith Zertal, the Argentinian musician and comic Danny Rabinovitch, the Israeli novelists Amos Oz, David Grossman and Abraham Yehoshua, the cosmopolitan conductor Daniel Barenboim, and the diplomat Martin Indyk, and survivors of the Holocaust such as Warsaw ghetto survivor Marek Edelman, Marion Kozak (the mother of David Miliband and Ed Miliband), the sociologist Zygmunt Bauman, resistance leader Stéphane Hessel, the Israeli political scientist Zeev Sternhell, the French historian Pierre Vidal-Naquet, the writer Primo Levi[7] and the writer Isaac Deutscher.[8]
In mid 2012, Meotti was accused by Marc Tracy in Tablet of being a 'serial plagiarist' for lifting, unacknowledged, material written by other journalists. The accusation was also endorsed by Max Blumenthal who provided several other examples of apparent copyright violations.[16] When this documentation imputing to Meotti a practice of copying other journalists emerged, not only Ynet but also Commentary magazine’s John Podhoretz severed their relationship with him for having engaged in journalistic theft.[17][18] In self-defense, Meotti stated that if he indeed quoted without crediting his sources it was just carelessness, but claimed the accusations were actually a form of demonization of himself, whom he described as one of ’the last and few pro-Israel journalists in Europe,‘ part of an ad hominem campaign infused with envy which had been ongoing for some years.[19] According to Blumenthal Meotti considered the accusations as forms of incitement that put his life at risk. [20]
Meotti is known for having very pro-Israel views and for being very critical about Islam, multiculturalism and political correctness.[21][22] He describes himself as a liberal conservative.[23]

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:11 PM

"What is wrong with bobad's posts?"
I believe I've just answered that Robo
The man is a trolling fanatic who calls everybody who disagrees with him a "Jew Hater" and has trawled the internet, taking articles from extremist rightist sites (including ant-semitic ones like "The White Supremacist" to prove that the Muslim culture is degenerate and has been from pre- Christian times
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:35 PM

While you choose to ignore the violent and aggressive behaviour of successive Israeli regimes towards the Palestinians down the decades, robomatic, in order to get us focus on the justifiable resistance of the virtually-unsupported and downtrodden Palestinians, while you choose to set aside the discrimination, the land-grabs, the blockade of Gaza and the mass murders of innocent civilians, then quite frankly your views are not worth listening to. The icing on the cake is your defence of arch-bigot and virulent hate-monger bobad. You are clearly an articulate man but you have been comprehensively hoodwinked. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:57 AM

I find the writer Bobad dragged up extremely disturbing, but also extremely educating
He has produced a huge list of Jewish writers and intellectuals who are he claims, guilty of intellectual treason, Jewish anti-Semitism, of being self-hating Jews[3] as suffering from what in his view was a 'pathology' of Jewish anti-israelism or as being 'deranged' (squilibrati) Jew-haters'.
To produce such a list and brand them all (some of them internationally, long respected writers such as Isaac Deuscher, and brand them antisemitic is simply fascism of the worst kind - the equivalent of the Nazi's book burnings
To place the policy of any State or administration above criticism is classic fascism
To allow any group of people to re-define words like "antisemitism" to suit their own policies and objectives is Orwellism of the worst kind - it is a major feature of '1984'
I recently looked up the a definition of antisemitism - it has been altered again from its Euoropean accepted one to suit current Israeli policy - that is an attempt at mind-control - it is what the Cold Warriors were accusing the Soviets of doing.
It now appears to be a reality.
Frightening or what??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM

Father of Israel admitted way back that "we have stolen their land - if I were an Arab I wouldn't deal wit the Israelis"

There is no evidence that he ever said that.
He says the opposite in all documented quotes.
One man claims it was said to him in private, but you use it every time as if it was true.
You know the truth because we have been through all this many times before.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM

Same as the other thread Keith
Go away - you are an antisemitic trolling pest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Incidentally
"You know the truth because we have been through all this many times before."
Anybody who believes that all he has to do is to deny something to make it untrue is a raving psychopathic nut-case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM

Under extreme right-wing pressure in the Knesset, Israel has reversed its reversal of the decision to either imprison or deport African refugees and is now offering money to all refugees to leave the country - ethnic cleansing is now openly official
Israel was founded on refugees - a poster carried by an Israeli in protest against these actions sums up the situation perfectly:
REFUGEES SHOULD NOT DEPORT REFUGEES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM

I've read logical points which tend to connect the dots. You respond by attacking the poster.

It's pretty clear who the complete obsessives here are, really, it is to laugh.........and I do.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:02 AM

The man is a trolling fanatic who calls everybody who disagrees with him a "Arab Hater" and has trawled the internet, taking articles from extremist leftist sites.

Anybody who believes that all he has to do is to deny something to make it untrue is a raving psychopathic nut-case.


Seems like an exact description of one Jim Carroll
Go away - you are an antisemitic trolling pest




Sorry that my posts about the Carroll family in Maryland were removed.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:03 AM

Jim,
Anybody who believes that all he has to do is to deny something to make it untrue is a raving psychopathic nut-case

It is a fact that only one person ever claimed to hear him say that, that he waited decades until the man was safely dead and then made his claim in an obscure book.

No-one else has heard him say anything like it and there are many authentic quotes of him contradicting such views.

You are just a liar Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:28 AM

Go talk to Bruce Keith - he believes the Jewish People are responsible for Israeli atrocities just as you do
Maybe you can go for a pint together and share your Islamophobia and antisenitism in convivial surroundings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:54 AM

Jim,

Your misconceptions, and outright lies are your problem, not mine.

I deny both Islamophobia and antisemitism: Perhaps you should reconsider your libel.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:58 AM

Jim, you can only reply with baseless personal attacks again.

I stated nothing but facts.
You are just a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 09:12 AM

I just ignore anyone who has a fixation with Jews and Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

Keith, Bruce, Bobad - three of a kind, I thing
This hand's mine lads - deal again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:07 AM

Sorry, you were not even dealt in.

You lose.

When you are willing to play by discussion of facts, and not personal attacks and accusations, you can get back in the game.

When you invoke the SRS rule that only those sources that apriori agree with you are allowed, you have already lost.

When you expect others to believe YOUR sources, and you refuse to accept other's sources, you have already lost.

When you make unsupported claims about what others are thinking, and insist it be believed, yet do not accept it when they state what YOU are thinking, you have lost.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

BTW, three of a kind beats a joker every time.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Don't play into his hand BB you'll only get this thread shutdown, just ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

Opposing viewpoints to my own are always welcome- but I expect to be treated fairly in the discussion, and be able to act under the same rules as those who disagree with me.
Difficult on Mudcat, but there are some people who are more interested in a discussion of the facts than in toeing the party line.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 11:42 AM

This is what's happening in Gaza today:

JERUSALEM — Israel said Wednesday it has arrested 10 Palestinians suspected of planning an attack against a navy ship off the Gaza coast, just days after it accused Gaza militants of using mass protests along its border with Israel as cover to stage further attacks.

The Shin Bet security service said the interrogation of the cell’s alleged leader revealed a plan to send a decoy boat from Gaza to distract the navy ship while another would fire a rocket at it. The plan called for militants to then try to abduct wounded sailors and keep them as bargaining chips for future prisoner swaps. Amin Jamaa was being indicted Wednesday at a court in southern Israel.

The Shin Bet identified him and his cohorts as members of the Islamic Jihad militant group and said they were abusing the easing of Israeli restrictions on Gaza fisherman to collect intelligence on Israel’s naval operations along the coast.

by Aron Heller?|?AP April 4 at 5:57 AM

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

Hajo Meyer

Early life
Born in Bielefeld, in 1938 Meyer fled Nazi Germany to the Netherlands alone, without his parents.[3] He went into hiding in 1943, but was arrested after a year and spent ten months in Auschwitz. His parents, who had also been deported to Auschwitz from Germany, did not survive.
Post-Holocaust
After the war, Meyer returned to the Netherlands, and studied theoretical physics. He eventually became director of the Phillips Physics Laboratory (NatLab). After his retirement he took courses in England and worked as a builder of new violins and violas.
Later career
In his later years, Meyer became politically active, including as director of A Different Jewish Voice. He wrote Het einde van het Jodendom (The End of Judaism) in 2003, which accuses Israel of abusing the Holocaust to justify crimes against the Palestinians. He was a member of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. He participated in the 2011 "Never Again – For Anyone" tour. He claimed Zionism predates fascism, that Zionists and fascists had a history of cooperation (Nazi/Zionist cooperation was the subject of 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis, which was collected and edited by Lenni Brenner), charging, among other things, that Israel wants to foment anti-Semitism in the world to encourage more Jews to migrate to Israel.
Meyer spoke in favor of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel.[5] Meyer was a member of the Dutch GreenLeft.

A remarkable statement from a remarkable man


An Ethical Tradition Betrayed
By Hajo Meyer
I was 20 years old when Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviet army 55 years ago. This occurred just in time because 10 months imprisonment in Auschwitz-Gleiwitz- had weakened me considerably. One needed a hell of a lot of luck in order to survive that long under the circumstances in that camp.
Two important components of luck were on my side. First, during my first years as a refugee kid in the Netherlands I had learned to be a locksmith. So during the very strong winter of ‘44-‘45 I worked in the warmth of a factory. Second, I had acquired a very good and completely trustworthy friend, called Jos. We helped each other as much as possible. The two of us did indeed survive.
Another aspect of my friendship with Jos was that in spite of — or better, due to — the extremely high number of people per square foot in such a camp, one felt extremely lonely. Because of our friendship, mutual help and absolute mutual trust we were not lonely. This was vital to our psychological survival.
Psychological survival is at least as important as physical survival. In fact, the Nazi concentration camps were their attempt to dehumanize us Jews. If a prisoner became part of the oppression system by being Kapo, the dehumanization would be successful. Obviously, the non-Jewish members of the oppression system were also no longer fully human. I realized there that anybody from a dominating group who tries to dehumanize people from a minority group, can only do so if by education, indoctrination and propaganda he has already been dehumanized himself, independent of the uniform he wears.
It is a deep tragedy that in Israel this is not what one concludes from the experiences in Auschwitz. To the contrary, Auschwitz is elevated there into a new religion.
“In the beginning is Auschwitz,” wrote Elie Wiesel. “Nothing should be compared to the Holocaust but everything must be related to it.” This elevation has allowed it to be exploited for political ends. All that was once most valued in a rich and varied Jewish heritage — the centrality of the ethical tradition, for instance — disappears beside the Nazi attempt at annihilation. This Holocaust religion translates in the minds of many into the impossibility that Israel can do any wrong.
Auschwitz existed within history, not outside of it. The main lesson I learned there is simple: We Jews should never, ever become like our tormentors — not even to save our lives. Even at Auschwitz, I sensed that such a moral downfall would render my survival meaningless.
Like most German Jews, I was raised in a secular and humanist tradition that was more antagonistic than sympathetic towards the Zionist enterprise. Since 1967 it has become obvious that political Zionism has one monolithic aim: Maximum land in Palestine with a minimum of Palestinians on it. This aim is pursued with an inexcusable cruelty as demonstrated during the assault on Gaza. The cruelty is explicitly formulated in the Dahiye doctrine of the military and morally supported by the Holocaust religion.
I am pained by the parallels I observe between my experiences in Germany prior to 1939 and those suffered by Palestinians today. I cannot help but hear echoes of the Nazi mythos of “blood and soil” in the rhetoric of settler fundamentalism which claims a sacred right to all the lands of biblical Judea and Samaria. The various forms of collective punishment visited upon the Palestinian people — coerced ghettoization behind a “security wall”; the bulldozing of homes and destruction of fields; the bombing of schools, mosques, and government buildings; an economic blockade that deprives people of the water, food, medicine, education and the basic necessities for dignified survival — force me to recall the deprivations and humiliations that I experienced in my youth. This century-long process of oppression means unimaginable suffering for Palestinians.
It is not too late to learn a different lesson from Auschwitz. For example, in the last year, the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network has become a means for many — including young Jews in the United States — to challenge the precepts of Zionism and support the Palestinian call for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. Their goal, and mine, is to challenge the dispossession and exclusivity of a Jewish state, in their names and in mine. They understand the urgency of the classical Jewish concept of teshuvah, return from the wrong road. Further, they understand that the pursuit of justice and making ethically positive sense out of senseless suffering is not only part of an ancient Jewish interpretation and shaping of history, but is crucial for all of us in creating the world we want to live in, and to our moral survival.

Hajo Meyer is the author of The End of Judaism: An Ethical Tradition Betrayed.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

That certainly is a far-Left viewpoint. Thank you for presenting it.

"Like most German Jews, I was raised in a secular and humanist tradition that was more antagonistic than sympathetic towards the Zionist enterprise."

And had not changed even with his experiences.



I do not agree with his assessments.


"After his retirement ... worked as a builder of new violins and violas."

As is my intent- I repair them now.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:38 PM

"That certainly is a far-Left viewpoint. Thank you for presenting it. "
So holocaust survivors no longer have a say in Israel if they don't embrace extremist right politics
Thank you for confirming that thais has nothing to do with either the Jewish peoplem or humanitarianism
What a hatefully inhuman remark and what a wonderful way to commemorate six million dead remark

Incidentally Bodad
You credited your latest unlinked article to Aron Heller - perhaps this ARTICLE BY HIM might interest you though I doubt it ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:49 PM

Mr Carroll,


I am not the state of Israel.

Nor are YOU.

You have expressed your opinion- many of us in the real world think it false.



Your presumption of God-hood is not welcome here.

"So holocaust survivors no longer have a say in Israel if they don't embrace extremist right politics"

They have the same say that they have since 1948, when the ARABS tried to destroy the state of Israel. AND continue to try. "NEVER AGAIN"



"Thank you for confirming that thais has nothing to do with either the Jewish peoplem or humanitarianism"

I confirm NOTHING other than you have made unsupported statements about what other people think ACCORDING TO YOU.




"What a hatefully inhuman remark and what a wonderful way to commemorate six million dead remark"

And YOU should be ashamed for reading it into what I posted- it is obvious that YOU are the one who is "inhuman" and "hateful"

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:10 PM

!I am not the state of Israel."
You have defended every scummy actuion they have ever taken - including mas murder
You may as well be a sitting member of the Knesset (on the extreme right wing, of course"
"Your presumption of God-hood is not welcome here. " I listen to what people are saying - you don't, unless they are defending the same atrocities you do
"They have the same say that they have since 1948"
Like the old Auschwitz survivor you have just called a liar, you mean?
"I confirm NOTHING other than you have made unsupported statements"
Who do I believe -= a raving ultra right supporter of massacres or a former inmate of Auschwitz (can I have some time to think about that?)
"And YOU should be ashamed for reading it into what I posted"
You said - "That certainly is a far-Left viewpoint. Thank you for presenting it. "
what else is there to be read into what you said - you called him a liar
Meyes politics were described as "of the Dutch Green Left."
Anybody who denigrates a survivor of Auschwitz to defend mass murder by an ultra right terroriist state is a piece of shit as far as I'm concerned - I don't know why Im even responding to you - I wouldn't talk to the BNP or the French National Front
If I described a Holocaust survivor the way you just did you'd be claiming my donation to your charity and I'd be paying it.
You people really are the dregs of humanity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:28 PM

And isn't saying that the opinion of ONE American of Jewish descent is the policy of Israel anti-Semitic ?

So pay up to "claiming my donation to your charity" AIPAC will do. Waiting on the donation.



As for the rest of your comments,

I called YOU a liar- I said I disagreed with his far Left view of things.

As for supporting massacres, YOU are the one here that seems to be doing that.

"Anybody who denigrates a survivor of Auschwitz to defend mass murder by an ultra right terroriist state is a piece of shit as far as I'm concerned "
Since IMO YOU are denigrating him,I guess my opinion that you are a piece of shit is supported by your own comment.


"YOU PEOPLE"?

You mean Jews that disagree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:33 PM

Jim:
Your references to bobad did not deal with what bobad has been saying in the posts above. You referenced without links alleged extremist posts not in evidence. I have participated in many threads with you all, and I do not recall bobad being more extreme than yourself.
You seem to have a peg-the-needle approach to this debate. You are the one constantly making accusations without evidence. What you have quoted above, and for the purpose of this post I am ASSUMING you quote correctly, is an extreme end of a diversity of opinion. I have no trouble with diversity of opinion, which can be thought of as one end or another of a 'bell' curve. It's gonna be there. If you so chose, you could probably come up with an extreme 'right' quote which brands any trace of anti-Zionism as racism in denying all Jews access to their ancestral homeland.
Oh, but you've omitted the vast middleground of opinion and seized on one end of it as YOUR middleground, and YOU have determined that anyone not stuck on your position is the racist.
Meanwhile, even leaders in Saudi Arabia have moved along, which puts you just where, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:47 PM

NOW I understand you Jim....



"the IRA supported the Nazis, and the Nazis supported the IRA. The IRA helped the Luftwaffe bomb Belfast and Derry.

Hitler would of course have done to Ireland what he did to every other country. In the Wannsee Conference notes of Jan 1942, Ireland's 4,000 Jews were listed for extermination. No doubt Irish quislings would have helped in this, as quislings helped in every other country.

Luckily, the IRA failed in their plans, and the Jews of Ireland were not exterminated. The IRA has still not apologised for this. "

a href="http://www.markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html">http://www.markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:29 PM

Hopefully, these work.   Nice to know this about Leftists...

http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html

http://markhumphrys.com/IRA/4.JPG

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:44 PM

What a bloody terrible thread. Christ almighty.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:42 PM

It's a good thing you didn't say Allah almighty or else you would have Carroll going apoplectic.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:37 PM

"Your references to bobad did not deal with what bobad has been saying in the posts above. "
Bobad has been screaming "Jew hater" at anybody who dares to criticise the actions of Israel for as long as I can remember - at least five years, I think
There isn't a shelf-life to such behaviour- Bobad is a hate-filled troll who has always drawn his evidence that Islam is a degenerate religion fro some of the worst racist sites on the net - from Muslim watch to The White supremacist" - he continues to do so
"You are the one constantly making accusations without evidence. "
Now you're behaving like Keith - I probably link more evidence than anybody else on this forum - the fact that you either don't read it or don't agree with it is immaterial - you certainly never provide any counter-evidence to dispute it - why not?
"I am ASSUMING you quote correctly,"
Please don't smear me - I never doctor evidence and I usually provide links unlike your protege Bobad
You peapole seem to base you whole approach on smears - like Bearded Bruce has just smeared a Holocaust survivor he suggested as "far left" - he was member of a Green left organisation - how "far left" is that
Opposing the mass murder the Isreali regime has carried out otr facilitated over the years - from, Sabra/Shatila to last week's massacre isnt being "far left" - it's being a human being
"And isn't saying that the opinion of ONE American of Jewish descent is the policy of Israel anti-Semitic ?"
Are you joking
I have linked to masses of evidence hundreds of Jews from all over the world who are horrified at what Israel is doin "Jews for Justice", "Rabbis for Justice", "Haaretz"....
I,ve jyst linked to a Holocaust survivor(the one you described as being "far left")
I've recently quoted mases from American Jews (the woman who made me aware of your "far left" Hajo Meyer
Sorry - not even the shadow of a cigar
You people are supporting the same attitude and actions of those who sent six million Jews to their deaths - not one of you have had the bottle to condemn Israel for appeasing them
Trumps party is riddled with open racist and anti-semites and they Jerusalem will have an underground station named after him for future generations of Israelis to admire
European neo fascism is hailing the Israeli leadership and Netunyahu is basking in their praise - you people stay silent
One of your number broke his balls telling us how harmless British wartime fascism which was calling for the death of Jews was as harmless as "the theme tune of Dad's Army" - you and Bobad knew this and were asked to comment - you stayed silent then and when the matter was raised again you still stay silent
I believe you people (not "Jews" - supporters of the Israeli regime) are antisemites - if not in your beliefs then in your natures - you are most certainly appeasers of antisemitism
And you lot of wee jobbies call the Labour Party antisemitic !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:42 PM

Leave it, Jim. This thread should just die.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 09:04 PM

You wish.......lol.

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Your wish is my command . . .