BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results

Subject: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 03:57 AM

Exit polls suggest a clear majority voted for a change to allow abortion in the first trimester. The true outcome will be known in a few hours.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/yes-vote-shows-overwhelming-desire-for-change-that-nobody-foresaw-1.3508879

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:14 AM

We say first 3 months, I'm with the Irish women.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:40 AM

The next step for Irish women will be to get that extremely arbitrary time limit scrapped. Not only do many women not realise that they're pregnant up to or even beyond that point, it will be open season for anti-abortion doctors to delay things until it's too late. Irish women will still be flying to the UK for abortions. I suppose the result's progress of a kind, even so.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:04 AM

Great shame that Irish women are held back by catholic drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 18 - 07:50 AM

To advance professionalism and freedom for women this is obviously good news

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:37 AM

Now that many results have been declared it seems the exit polls were correct. A rather different result from what opinion polls previously regarded as a close race.
All in all a stunning result for Irish Women. Both my daughters and ex are over the moon with the outcome.
The next hurdle is how many in the Dáil dare try to frustrate it's implementation.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:55 AM

Not much left of this thread after the entirely rational remark about the over-reach of the Catholic church regarding women's health and personal choice sent Jim into a frenzy of racist accusations, which have been deleted, as have the responses. Jim, it's part of the story, so ignore the thread if you can't live with it, don't try to side-track it.

This is important. And it's way past time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 18 - 12:15 PM

"Jim, it's part of the story, so ignore the thread if you can't live with it,"
I am very much aware that it is - but it is not just an "Irish" problem and nor is it confined to the Catholic Church or abortion - that was my objection
The majority was such that I very much doubt if it will be opposed in the Dáil
What remains to be seen is the effect it will have on the Church, whose role in the campaign has been scurrilous beyond belief
One of the speakers on the platform a Dublin Castle has called for the separation of Church and State - long, long overdue
There has been a running battle over the 90% ownership of schools by the church and the demand for baptismal certificates
I think the church has shot its bolt on this - I thought they had after the Same Sex Marriage vote
I would be over the moon if the church's influence was finally ended here, but I can't help wishing that it had been done differently
I would not like so see a bitterly divided Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 18 - 12:47 PM

For those of us a long way away: Dáil Éireann.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 May 18 - 01:12 PM

The "No" people seem to react as if it is compulsory! Why they want to rule other people's lives who don't share their beliefs, I don't comprehend. I do wonder, however, if there is opposition from medical staff, including nurses. Will it be easy to find willing clinics?
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 01:23 PM

For those overseas this is the background to the controversy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Until very recent times it could be argued that the country was in thrall to the Catholic Church. Those bonds are loosening by the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 18 - 02:43 PM

This is going to give Northern Irish fundies an interesting time trying to police the abortion ban they have there.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 18 - 03:08 PM

"Those bonds are loosening by the day."
Please don't be provocative Iians
A small reminder - according to the Marie Stopes Clinic:
Abortion is defined as unlawful in Northern Ireland. Abortion is not permitted in Northern Ireland in cases of rape, incest or foetal abnormalities.
The majority of women living in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland travel to England to access abortion services.
Today the Republic took a giant step - who knows when that little bit of Britain in the NE will take that step
Then maybe it can take a look at another issue
"Northern Ireland remains the only part of the UK where same-sex marriage is still banned."
And what next - MAYBE THIS MIGHT GET SOME ATTENTION

The bonds have been loosening in the Republic for some time now - the clerical abuse revelations started the ball rolling

Thanks for the reminder Jack
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:08 PM

"While Ireland remains a “predominantly Catholic country” the percentage of those who identified as Catholic has fallen sharply from 84.2 per cent in the 2011 census to 78.3 per cent in 2016." However
Dr David Barker, responsible for the 2004 Report of the Church in America, warns. The Catholic Church in Ireland has probably five or, ten years at most,to change before being reduced to a tiny irrelevant minority.


http://www.thejournal.ie/religion-health-care-catholic-church-3360849-Apr2017/


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-has-stubborn-reluctance-on-school-divestment-martin-s


https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/the-catholic-church-has-at-most-10-years-to-adapt-1.3084834

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum result
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:39 PM

The "No" people seem to react as if it is compulsory! Why they want to rule other people's lives who don't share their beliefs, I don't comprehend.

The point you miss, Roger, is that in the case of abortion, the simple position of accepting other people preferences as their business, doesn't really work. It's not like other issues such as sexual preferences or gender variety, or lifestyle choices.

If you believe that a foetus is a small human being, at a stage of life where it is totally dependant, that means that it is not merely a matter of different strokes for different folks. For anyone who holds that belief, it is in a sense analogous to other situations where some human beings treat other human beings as disposable, and these are situations which are generally seen as intolerable.

This currently is a minority opinion in most places, very much including Ireland, as evidenced today. Accordingly it would be wrong to seek for it to be imposed by law. However it should be recognised that it is not a position based on intolerance of difference, but on a belief about human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:56 PM

No, Kevin, it isn't. That argument is a belief, not a fact. An argument that parses those "human" rights in favor of a non-viable cluster of cells over the wants or needs of a sentient adult human woman (or sexually mature underage girl or a victim of rape). Whose circumstances you can not understand and are in no position to judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 18 - 07:41 PM

What you call "a non-viable cluster of cells", I would call "a human being at a very early stage of development incapable of independent existence". Both descriptions are scientifically accurate. Given a couple of weeks it becomes "a non-viable embryo", which can also be called ."a recognisable but very small human being". Both descriptions are accurate. And so forth.

My point however was not to continue to argue about the rights and wrongs of abortion, but to suggest that it should be recognised that it is not about intolerance of different views, but about a more fundamental disagreement.

Would it make sense to say to an opponent of hunting, or an advocate of gun control, or an abolitionist in the days of slavery, "no one is making you go hunting, or own a gun, or have slaves, why can't you just accept that other people like those things, and stop trying to change minds"?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 18 - 07:45 PM

And where there is a disagreement, YOU can't tell us what we must agree about. No more about that, I'm not going to argue with you, just tell you that you didn't win an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:33 PM

I don't think Kevin is trying to win an argument. I think he and I would agree that there are two different points of view, each of them valid. It's not a matter of one being right and one being wrong. I don't know how the two can be reconciled.

Since that's the case, I think the decision has to be made by the woman who is pregnant because she is the one who is affected most directly - but I understand and sympathize with those who oppose abortion because they view it as killing a life. I suppose that means that both sides will vehemently disagree with me and call me awful things.

I don't think anyone can say definitively when life begins. It's a matter of opinion, and a variety of opinions can be valid.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 May 18 - 03:14 AM

I think it is very difficult for a man to pontificate on this. I don't think it is a decision to be made lightly. Female friends who have miscarried or have struggled with infertility have experienced emotions I can't replicate. I can only imagine the turmoil a woman goes though before making the decision to have an aborition. I would rather the issue of birth control lost its stigma (though I understand even in Catholic societies it is widely practiced despite the church's attitude)than women have to rely on abortion, but I still believe it is the woman's right to choose.
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 03:17 AM

Well, I won't vehemently disagree with you, Joe. I would perhaps not talk in terms of 'validity' since people mix that up with 'true', but this is not a topic that I think can be 'scientifically answered': it is about relationships and attitudes and judgement and messy human stuff like that, not something that can be neatly mapped onto an equation or number.

I would have voted 'yes' to remove the restriction from the constitution. Whatever your view on abortion, it seems to me something that the government should be able to take a decision on, not something they are prohibited from even discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 03:44 AM

I do hope people aren't intending to re-open the incredibly unpleasantly divisive referendum arguments that we in Ireland have been subjected to over the last month or so
Ireland made a far clearer choice on the matter than I ever dreamed was possible - hopefully, it did no damage to somewhat easy-going nature of its people (there are still a large number of people here who refuse to discuss the Civil War)
The Church, I believe, made a fatal mistake in taking an open 'No" stance, just as they did with same-sex marriage; in doing so they drove yet another nail into their coffin.
No body with the psychological/mystical influence the church has should have been allowed to behave the way they did
As it happened, all they managed too do was shoot themselves in both feet
Ireland is quite keen on referenda - it wouldn't surprise me if the next one was to decide whether the church should be allowed to continue its 90% plus control over children's education.
The sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:17 AM

"While Ireland remains a “predominantly Catholic country” " the North does not but has the similar restrictions on abortion.

There are loud calls for reform in the North too, but the devolved legislature is not functioning and Westminster is loathe to make any contentious decisions on their behalf.

Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:52 AM

Jim the arguments have been presented, the issue voted on. The result an overwhelming majority in favour of the repeal of the eighth amendment.
A 66.4% majority. This is a cause for celebration, not constantly reopening old wounds. Try to look at the positives for once. By any metric the Catholic church is diminishing in power and influence. Ireland clearly has a secular government-not a bunch of closet catholics.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 05:55 AM

"Try to look at the positives for once."
Where have I not Iains?
That doesn't mean we ignore the implications that were raised in the debate
You were the one who raised Irish women being "in the thrall of the Catholic Church" - not me
I suggest things would be far easier to discuss if you took responsibility for your own statements
It was a great result, but the manner in which the campaign was conducted raises the possibility of future problems - one of them being the suggestion that was raised that the"NO" campaign would take the final decision to court is it went against them, or alternatively, that they would challenge any actions the Government decided on in court.
I get a little tired of English outsiders telling the Irish how they should run their country, espacialllly on the issues of the border - surely it's time they learned their lesson.
I do not want to make this an issue, nor do I wish to continue the argument about the North going to have to run very fast to catch up with the Republic on matters sexual
Get your own act together before you start telling Ireland what to do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 18 - 07:18 AM

Surely the solution is liberal use of johnnies, bugger the catholic church, and the loony N Irish - but then they know all about that!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 07:49 AM

I said Ireland was in thrall to the Catholic church. Had I meant women I would have said so. If you wish to quote people get it right. Do not distort what was said as an excuse to parrot your usual responses.

"Get your own act together before you start telling Ireland what to do"
You sir, are a buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:20 AM

Ignoring the expected ill-mannered outburst
The first major response to the result is a demand by Northerners for a change in legislation to allow abortion there
The DUP have dug their heels in and said they will not be bullied into changing their position
Members of the Tory Party have demanded change in the North, but it has been pointed out that May's reliance on the DUP vote has placed her in a position where she is quite likely to do nothing   
A campaign has been started in the north and the Church (on both sides) have taken up their old usual positions
When will they ever learn!!
Incidentally, several "No" campaigner leaders have said they will abide by the decision, but how many remains to be seen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:07 AM

The whole point is that if they used birth control in the first place, there would be no need for an abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:16 AM

The DUP have dug their heels in and said they will not be bullied into changing their position

So what? They do not have an overall majority, and the legislature is not functioning anyway.
Westminster is not going to pass a decree on such a contentious issue, but maybe they might hold a referendum in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:22 AM

Contraception is a good start, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:38 AM

The referendum had nothing to do with northern Ireland.After all it is a different country with a different government and different legislature. Perhaps you need some lessons in political geography! If you are trying to say the outcome may possibly impact legislation in the north at some future period only God knows the answer at this point. What happens in the north is irrelevant to the referendum outcome. You are merely trying to divert the thread Yet Again to suit your own agenda.
Why not start your own thread? then you can be as contentious as you like. And we can all ignore you

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:42 AM

"The referendum had nothing to do with northern Ireland."
@Fraid the Northern Irelanders don't agree with you Iains
Please stop insulting me and come to terms with what effect this referendum has had
When will the Little English ever learn that the Empire has long gone
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:49 AM

Is it the clergy who have led Catholic opposition to birth control and abortion in Ireland? Catholic clergy are largely silent on these issues in the U.S. and often privately express distress at the aggressive nature of the anti-abortion movement here.
Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 11:37 AM

"Is it the clergy who have led Catholic opposition to birth control and abortion in Ireland? "
Yes is is - the bishops described the reapeal as murder and liked it to euthanasia
On the eve of the vote prayers were said for a 'No' vote, in Churches, certainly in Dublin
On the single sex marriage issue, politicians were threatened with excommunication if they voted for it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 11:55 AM

"When will the Little English ever learn that the Empire has long gone"
The same tired, provocative, inflammatory statements.



I wonder if little jimmie's persistant anglophobia extends as far as refusing to accept his uk pension. Somehow I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Abortion Referendum results
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 12:07 PM

"The same tired, provocative, inflammatory statements."
And yours are not
"The same tired, provocative, inflammatory statements."
You really aren't the brightest button an the uniform, are you
A self-awareness really would do wonders
Please respond to the points I have made
Jim Carroll

---

Let's not flog this anymore, you're off the rails. Again.