Punch & Judy - US equivalent?

Subject: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: GUEST,Busker On A Budget
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:20 PM

I know that learning to be a "Punch And Judy Man" in the UK traditionally involves apprenticeship with a veteran performer, learning to use and make the unique device that creates Punch's trademark sound, etc.

Is there a performing tradition in the US that has an analogous apprenticeship tradition?

Also would love to hear stories about the history and lore of Punch And Judy men.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:47 PM

Punch and Judy is a very English traditional puppet show which must be analyzed in Freudian terms to recover the ancient rites which it is obviously a hand-down from. Roman? Druidical (He doesn't look Druish. . .).

There is no way, No Way. NO. FREAKIN. WAY. that America has an analogue of this brutal tradition that the English kiddies love.

Oh Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:07 PM

For its gender neutral environment.

You cannot get better in the USA than "Beany an Cecil."

...Your UK P&J should land any performer in jail and under severe examination in today's world...spousal abuse is not funny, nor never was.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

A friend did some of the B&C puppetry. What an absolute gas walking into beach-side venues in the early 70's and watching her transform into a living animation that I never really knew. Hazelrah (a rabbit) from Watership Down was spell binding.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:35 AM

We love watching a Punch and Judy show.

People miss the point that the violent, nasty Mr Punch meets his just deserts when the Devil arrives to claim him. It's a morality play.
It doesn't advocate domestic violence.

In the shows we've seen, Mr Punch thumps a policeman too. This is to show that one cannot assault representatives of the Law with impunity.

I do wish the dreaded Politically Correct Brigade would leave our traditions alone, especially when they have palpably misunderstood the underlying message.

Oddly enough, there's a much-loved character in Ivory Coast called Moussa Le Fou, who has many similar qualities to Punch. He thumps his wife, causes trouble wherever he goes and even has a hunchback like Mr Punch. There are many films about him (He's a real man, not a puppet)
My husband noticed the similarities while watching his first P&J show in Norfolk.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:23 AM

Punch has its origins in the Commedia del'Arte in Italy, and Mr. Punch is an equivalent of that traditional figure, the Lord of Misrule. One of the interesting aspects of the whole show is the growing measure of anarchy which rises during the performance - baby, Judy, policeman, skeleton, devil - all get whacked with Punch's stick. It's a great snook-cocking exercise at the restraints of the "normal" life - and that's why it's loved by kids and adults alike.

The good professor throws in a few modern jokes while keeping the traditional business alive (crocodile & sausages, etc.). Just like that othetr great British tradition, pantomime.

I've known several "professors" over the years, and always admired their art. Apparently, you can't graduate as a professor until you've made your own puppets and retrieved the swozzle after it's been inadvertently swallowed!

Long may it continue.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM

I'm an American, and I've never encountered an equivalent to Punch and Judy, if by that you mean a travelling puppet show in a small booth.

But if by that you mean a long-lived show where primitive characters insult each other, the Simpsons TV show might qualify. Mind you, I've only seen it once.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:23 AM

Punch & Judy was hugely popular in Europe and the US in the late 18th century - not in the booth we know today, but as a larger, staged presentation. Expensive to stage and not easy to move from place to place, which is why the booth originated.

As for the Simpsons, it is one of the wittiest shows on American TV - and you have to be up-to-date with, and have a wide knowledge of, cultural references to get the constant stream of jokes, allusions and parodies in the show. Example - just look at the names of shops in a street scene, or the names on gravestones in a graveyard. Blink and you'll miss them.

Far more than just primitive characters insulting each other. The characters are also far from primitive.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: clueless don
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM

gargoyle wrote "A friend did some of the B&C puppetry."

Beany and Cecil puppetry? I've only ever seen Beany and Cecil as an animated cartoon.

Guess it's time to sail past the Montgomery Cliffs into the Chimpan Sea - en route to No Bikini Atoll.

Don

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:13 PM

It would be in our cartoons, like Tom and Jerry.

~S~

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 04:36 PM

Though they may not be remembered for the physical humor/violence, Laurel and Hardy also fit.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 05:06 PM

Punch & Judy was hugely popular in Europe and the US in the late 18th century

Knowing its origin, I should not have been surprised, but I was, when I came across a Punch and Judy show while in the Gernam town of Celle, some four years ago. I watched for a while and, although I don't speak German, it seemed to be very close to the English version.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 08:04 PM

"Punch has its origins in the Commedia del'Arte in Italy,"
There is a wonderfully evocative translated illustrated history of this theatrical masterpiece entitled 'The Italian Comedy' by Pierre L. Duchartre - still available at a reasonable price - well worth it for the illustrations alone.
It traces its history back as far as Ancient Greece
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:07 AM

Thanks for the book info Jim - just ordered it from AbeBooks.

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:32 AM

Hope you enjoy it as much as I still do Will
There are others, but that's the best one I found
It was high on MacColl's recommended reading list when I joined the Critics Group
Jim

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM

Hahaha DMcG! "So macht man das!"

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:39 AM

When I was living in London in the late '60s/early '70s, I made acquaintance with "Professor Alexander" and John Foreman - two hugely knowledgeable persons in the Punch and music-hall world. I was also fascinated in those days by the "penny plain, twopence coloured" cardboard cut-out theatres sold (and still sold, I believe) by Pollock's in Covent Garden.

My old buddy Pete Charlton - current Historian of the British Music Hall Society - does large-scale, street-theatre-on-a-barrow versions of "The Siege of Troy" and "Saint George and the Dragon", the art of which is very much based on the cardboard theatre. The little wires on which the cardboard figures are manipulated from the wings become large 2x2" wooden rods in the barrow version!

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

Sorry - last post was mine - just reset my cookie...

Subject: RE: Punch & Judy - US equivalent?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:40 AM

Just after the War, I remember going to stay at the seaside with my parents and watching many a P&J show. Also Pierrot shows. (People dressed in black-and-white harlequin costumes with frills round the neck, dancing, singing and a bit of slapstick.)
There are still a P&J shows available for bookings in Norfolk I believe.