country dance question

Subject: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 11:48 AM

I play for a group of English Country dancers.

If the callers like a dance but the band rejects the music specified for it, can we substitute any tune if these things are the same:

the time signature
number of measures
number of repeats?

Do pick-up notes make a difference?

(FYI, the main reason we dislike music is that it is repetitious and uninspired - "like an exercise".)

Question 2. Suppose we can't find the music at all. Is there a way to tell from the dance what time it is in the how long the music should be?

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: G-Force
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 01:27 PM

Question 1: Speed is another thing to bear in mind.

Question 2: Most callers seem to know whether they need '32-bar reels', '48-bar jigs' or whatever.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 02:47 PM

Following on from G forces Comments above;   I play regularly in an English Country Dance band, … we are only human and cannot possibly know every tune that's ever been written, and if a caller asks for a tune we don't know, we substitute … there is usually no problem. Callers rarely ask for a specific tune, usually they ask for,say, 32 bar jigs, or 48 bar polka's or something similar, very few dances actually have specific tunes attached to them anyway.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery)
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 02:53 PM

Previous comment was from me !
P.S, Pick up notes are not a problem, The dancers usually sense when the actual tune begins or if not it doesn't take them long to fall into the rhythm !!!

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM

Any caller worth their salt would be able to adjust to another tune in the same rhythm, but preferably with the same number of measures/repeats.
If the dance calls for a 3-part tune a 2-part tune can easily be adjusted by the lead musician in a variety of ways. We often used 2As, 2Bs AB for this without any problem. We only had a couple of 3-part jig sets in our repertoire and if these were exhausted we would revert to the former.

The great majority of our dances were for general public rather than experienced dancers so we tended to use the same sets of 3 or so tunes for each regular dance. We could play them in our sleep, so we could have a bit of fun and watch the dancers.

After I retired from calling with my own band I did a lot of supply calling and never had a problem with other bands' tune sets.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery)
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM

Steve Gardham.   Adapting tunes "on the hoof" is something that all dance musicians learn very early in their careers, either changing 32 bars to 48 by playing AA.BB.AB, or cutting 32 bars down to 16 using just 1A part Followed by 1B. Even adding or leaving out sections as the dance progresses if the dancers gallop ahead or slow down is pretty much par for the course !!.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:47 PM

Yes but …..
As an English Country Dancer - i.e. a country dancer in England, I dance what we call 'Playford', 'Ceilidh' and 'American'
Certainly Ceilidh dances are usually published with suggestions for tunes '32 bar reels' '48 bar jigs or reels' etc. And each band has a repertoire of tunes that they play well. If they play regularly for a particular caller tunes and dances that match well became paired.

I think American 'English Country Dancers' dance what we would call 'Playford'. For that tunes and dances have become linked. The tunes may be a less standard length. The dancers may 'know' the dance by responding to the music. Even in Ceilidh this can sometime be true - easy to go wrong in Blaydon Races if the band have gone on to a second tune and I can imagine getting very confused if I tried dancing a different dance to the tune Blaydon Races.

Historically there was more mix & match, by publishers. So new sets of figures were put to old tunes and in different books you find the same figures to different tunes (and the dance might be called after the tune). Cecil Sharp searched out old Playford dances from the 17th century, but if he didn't like the tune Playford had matched it with he used another from the book e.g. Hit & Miss to the tune Daphne.
So yes, you can, but the dancers may not like it if they already know the dance. What some bands in England do is find a second tune that fits with the first and play a medley. This would give the dancers and caller a chance to see if it suited the dance.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:49 PM

Our callers don't know anything about music. They have two books which provide dance instructions and (usually) a tune to go with the instructions.

Apparently the answer to my question in the first post is Yes.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:53 PM

For Q2 the caller should be able to tell you this. I assume they give you their programme in advance. Dance instructions are published as A1, A2, B1, etc,(sometimes it says A1 b1-4, A1 b5-7) the caller should know if the phrase is 4,6,8 bars etc. by how many steps the moves take.

Really, both questions need negotiation between band and caller.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,Banjo flower
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 05:44 PM

Our caller usually just turns to me and says 32 bar jigs or reels please
Also we can do a whole ceilidh of 48 bar jigs without resorting to AA/BB/AB

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 05:50 PM

In my experience, it’s always a compromise between what the caller asks for and what the band knows and are happy with. In days gone by, dance bands tended to play from notation, and could render any tune if they had the dots to follow, whereas now most of us either play from memory or by ear, making it more difficult to offer tunes we don’t already know. When calling for dances, I either have to suggest appropriate tunes that the others know, or think of another dance altogether, given that some dances like the Playford ones are so associated with particular tunes that it’s almost unthinkable to try another tune for them.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: CupOfTea
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 09:51 PM

For English Country Dance, (as danced in the US) we've played for both callers who understand music notation, and those who don't. Having tune name = dance name made it very easy for the caller w/out notational clue: they did not have to even think about the details. Over the decades, we've educated them to varying degrees.

We expect to have the dance/tune list at least a week in advance of the monthly dances, particularly when we have new music (which, to our dismay sometimes lately means 2-4 pieces, some complex) and we're all (5 of us) playing from sheet music. We might suggest a dance card is overloaded with jigs or too much 3/2 or 9/8. There are some tunes, both traditional and new, that the band loathes, and plumb will NOT do. When up against the wall we can sub in something in the same meter & length. Some we just grouse ("CHRIST! Not Christchurch Bells! I'll fall asleep and not know which part!").

A friend who is a very experimental & flexible ECD caller (also hammer dulcimer player for contra) reported that at a Playford Ball a bit downstate, the band would start with the traditional tune, then when the dancers were in the groove, would switch tunes. She also calls for our Sunday night slow paced ECDance for elders, and has modified or rewritten dances to minimize confusion and maximize fun, particularly if she likes the tune. Her simple mixer to Newcastle is nothing like the advanced Newcastle dance.

It would improve things if you can educate a caller who would appreciate it, to learn time signatures and tune structures. Another consideration is, how familiar with the repertoire are your dancers? Long time dancers might not be best pleased if the dance is Jamaica, and the tune is not. The whole point is that dancers, caller, and band have a good time. If switching in tunes that fit pleases you without disconcerting anyone,mwhy not?

Joanne in Cleveland (whose buddy and caller has 2 of his dances' tunes in the Barnes Green book!)

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: BobL
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM

Some dances prefer their own proper tunes, especially if they're at all idiosyncratic - "Jenny Pluck Pears" for example - while others aren't so fussy. Though in some cases it's the tune that makes the dance, e.g. "Levi Jackson", you can throw in other tunes as long as you start and finish with the original.

One advantage of a set tune is that it can help dancers recall the moves. This can work both ways though: I was once in a display side which deliberately practised "Newcastle" to all sorts of different tunes, thus disabling the dancers' auto-pilots so they had to THINK (I wouldn't recommend Steeleye Span's "Robbery with Violins" although it almost worked).

BTW there are moves afoot to restore some of Playford's original tunes where substitutes are commonly used. Try "Hit and Miss" to the original rather than "Daphne", and with a straight hey. A few need a bit of musical effort to make them work - UK dancers might encounter them courtesy of the band Playford Liberation Front.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 03:30 AM

Adapting tunes "on the hoof" is something that all dance musicians learn very early in their careers,

There are bands, and there are dance bands. And we ceilidhnauts gravitate to the latter. We reckon musicians (& callers) that are seen dancing elsewhere make better ceilidhs.

Playford, by and large, is more prescribed and in my limited experience thereof, the demands of the music greater. Certainly Playford as done in the UK is more serious cf ceilidh & barn dances. Getting it right, higher up the agenda.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:08 AM

I used to dance at a club where the band played Newcastle for the first time through Newcastle, then switched to Alabama Jubilee - a complete change of mood and great fun (though it would be heresy to make staid 'Playford' dancers dance it to Alabama only). Almost a different dance.
Bob, I agree, for some dances it is the combination of dance / tune that makes it memorable.
I've danced Bishop to the tune of that name, rather than Miss Dolland's delight, which Sharp paired with it, but never tried calling Hit & Miss to it's own tune and hadn't thought of a straight hey, the circular hey seems to need the extra bars Daphne gives it.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:28 AM

From a musical point of view, any tune which fits the dance will work. What is more important is the expectations of the caller and the dancers.

I am in a band which plays for both 'ceilidh' and 'social' dance, which includes Playford and what I believe Americans refer to as' English Country Dance'. The expectations are very different. Playing for ceilidh, the choice of tune is usually entirely a matter for the band, the caller will simply specify what type of tune they want - we may have some discussion about the style of dance to help us choose which tune from our repertoire we play, but otherwise it is our choice.

'Social' dances including Playford are often more complex, and as Mo has explained the dancers will often take their cue from the tune, so playing an unfamiliar tune may be confusing. Unfortunately some of the tunes can be less than inspiring, especially those for new dances. Composers of great new dances are not always so talented when it comes to composing the tunes to go with them! However some old tunes can also get pretty boring, especially after numerous repeats.

As a musician, your role is to facilitate the dancing. If the caller and dancers are fine with a different tune then there isn't a problem. If they want, or need, the original boring tune then sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and go along with it.

If it all gets too boring then maybe you should look to play for something different. Music is meant to be fun!

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:45 AM

Leenia, we cross-posted yesterday. I agree with Joanne about educating the caller, I think you could work together to educate each other.

Do they chose dances that they have danced themselves, or just pick things they like the look of, from a book. (Wonder which book - might be one I have. If you want to know about specific dances do pm me). I usually pick mine either because I've danced it and liked it, or because I have a recording and find the track so special that I have to know the dance that goes with it. The second method doesn't always last more than a couple of times at club, sometimes I can tell from reading that it won't suit our dancers.

Since most English clubs use recorded music I learnt my calling to practising tapes at home. At the time, although I'd played piano and recorder as a child I could hardly tell a jig from a reel, and spent a lot of time listening to tracks and tallying As & Bs to work out how long they were. Educating myself. Later I went to a band workshop to learn some of the tunes (as I was booked to call with the group and wanted a feel for what they played). This helped a lot. There's a lot to be said for callers playing and musicians dancing - even a bit.
It might help if you could listen to recordings of a particular dance, to give a feel and inform your choice of alternative.

Also ask the caller if there is any part of the dance that needs a particular phrasing. In Ceilidh dances I prefer a 2bar,2bar, 4bar shape for the forward and back and cross over in Galopede (to get beginners dancing to the music), and a long note at the end of the phrase in St Bernard Waltz for the stamps (some tunes have the wrong rhythm there). It's not quite as simple as number of bars, some tunes work better.

The other thing about tunes is that it's not the dots, it's what the musicians do with them. The old EFDSS recording makes Daphne sound pedestrian, I liked Heartsease much better as a tune though it has an awkward transition for dancers, Hit and Miss is a better dance. Then I found another recording of Daphne which sounded much better. Same with Mr Isaacs Maggot - I enjoy the wistful sound of newer recordings. But for some dances the EFDSS record is more to my taste than some of the fanciful renderings (e.g. Bare Necessities). Again it depends on dance /tune - I love Bare Necessities for Freeford Gardens.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 06:09 AM

There is a discussion group for ECD which will usually give a very quick answer to queries about specific dances and tunes (some member may also send you the 'dots' off-line).
"The ECD list, founded in 1994, is for discussion of all aspects of modern and historical English Country Dance and related forms as they have relevance to the discussion. (Related forms include contra, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, contradanza, Victorian longways dances, quadrilles, cotillions, etc.)"
A lot of the discussion is by callers, but some of them are also musicians

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

There are some tune/dance pairs where you can't substitute. "Petronella" is an obvious one.

In general, before about 1800, dances always had unique tunes, and they still do in most of continental Europe. If you don't know the original pairing, and can't figure out why it works, you shouldn't be randomly substituting different tunes.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:19 AM

I agree with that for the older dances, (Hole in The Wall, Mr. Beveridges’s, Nonsuch, Grimstock, Jenny Pluck Pears, etc.), but I meant substituting tunes when doing the more modern dances, such as barn dance and ceilidh favourites. However, I can think of some Scottish and Irish dances, where the dancers would expect the standard tune too.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 10:09 AM

Irish dances, where the dancers would expect the standard tune too.

Good Ceili bands (in Ireland) get it right. And it ain't slow! And the "Baile Bhuirne Jig Set" virtually demands the prescribed 5 tunes.

In Irish Set dancing the choice of music is supremely important. But then the dances are fiendishly complicated cf Barn Dances. Playford & Contra are more complex and command the same consideration.

So there you have it, when choosing a tune, first ask "how complex is the dance?". Then you have half the answer to "which tune"?

So in answer to the OP, "its complicated!"

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:07 PM

I agree with Mr Red, there are all sorts of types of dance occasions and different styles, different audiences. In order to give more precise help here we would need to know the context. My own context was essentially calling and playing for the general public where most of the dancers were only occasional social dancers or complete beginners.
Lots of fun to be had there , but that's not to say lots of fun can't be had in other contexts.

Leeneia, you appear to be talking about a dance club, in which place please ignore any of my advice as it's not appropriate.

Never danced, called or played for Playford and never had the desire to.
But, horses for courses.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Jos
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:38 AM

I remember an occasion years ago in the Anchor Garden in Sidmouth when the caller announced 'The Rifleman' and told the dancers to do a rant step. The band then played a hornpipe.
For those obediently trying to rant, it was a struggle. For those of us who danced it as a hornpipe it was brilliant.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:15 AM

"Baile Bhuirne Jig Set" almost never called and done complete without pause. For times like that the dancers need all the cues they can get and familiar tunes are certainly one help.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:49 AM

Jack, I'm not sure that you are quite correct historically.
Certainly publishers would pair figures with tune and call the dance by the name of the tune, but other publishers would pair things another way. And in longways (duple or triple minor) dances the set would form, the leading couple would choose which figures to dance and dance them with each couple or couples they came to, who would then dance with the next first couple - the rest of the set waited (chatted, flirted) until the leading couple came to them.
I agree that, because those who now dance C17 & C18 dances see them as linked to a particular tune, because they are reconstructed from publications which link them.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:53 AM

I am talking about 'English' dances. Don't know very much about continental (except bourees etc which I've danced to various tunes)

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 06:22 AM

I remember an occasion years ago in the Anchor Garden in Sidmouth when the caller announced 'The Rifleman' and told the dancers to do a rant step. The band then played a hornpipe.

That sounds like a miscommunication between the caller and the band. It is up to the caller to tell the band what type of tune he/she wants. Unfortunately some callers can be infuriatingly vague about their requirements, and I have been in situations where the band has had to change its choice of tune when it became apparent during the walkthrough that our first choice wouldn't suit that particular dance. If you only find out once the dance is in progress it is much more difficult to change.

It helps that three of our band members are also callers themselves.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM

I had no idea so many catters play for dancers.

Mo, you wondered about our books. Almost all our dances come from two sources - the red or blue book of 'English Country Dances' collected by Barnes or the book 'Impropriety' by Brooke Somebody.

We dance every two months, and 2 or 3 weeks before the dance, Our Leader sends us the music for 16 or 17 dances via e-mail. Maybe half of them will be new to us. So we use written music. There's a pool of nine musicians, but only 3-5 will play any given dance.

We have one rehearsal before the dance, and we really enjoy it. I try to contribute a new couples' waltz to end every dance.

My collection of dance music fills two 1-inch binders.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 08:52 AM

That will be Brooke Friendly (Australian??)
I knew Barnes published dance tunes, didn't realise he included instructions.
No, I haven't got any of those. Looking on the Cambridge Folk index I don't recognise the name of any of the Impropriety dances - presumably they were written by Brooke Friendly. He is a member of the group I mentioned above.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Marje
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:15 PM

A dancer friend who spends a lot of time in the US once gave me a copy of the Barnes blue book. Both she and I (when I saw it) were surprised that it isn't better known in the UK. It's a terrific treasury of 486 English dance tunes, ranging from Playford to Pat Shaw. It just gives the melody line, with suggested chord-letters above the staff. There are no dance instructions, just the tunes, arranged alphabetically. It's a weighty, spiral-bound paperback. Highly recommended to English players who may not have come across it.

Marje

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:24 PM

The books I have by Peter Barnes contain only music, not dance instructions. I don't know where our leader gets the instructions for those tunes. In addition to the blue book there is the red book, equally fat and enticing.

Both books have provided fine tunes for the piano, the accordion and with friends, as well as for dancers.

You are right, Mo. It's Brooke Friendly.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 May 19 - 06:08 PM

There's a new Green Barnes too, this English musician / bandleader was enthusing on facebook. So some of our musicians use it.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 May 19 - 06:57 PM

And just posted on the ECD discussion group is a link to a website with details of the dances in Barnes 3, source of instructions + instructions where permission was give http://barnesthree.aactmad.org/about
There is also a good index of dances (instructions, not tunes) on the Cambridge Folk website

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: CupOfTea
Date: 01 May 19 - 07:39 PM

Barnes 3, AKA "the Green Book" has long been anticipated, in hopes of not having to haul around thick binders of "Not in Barnes/NIB" tunes, and after browsing through it, I am not not disappointed, though only one of Steve's dance's tunes made it into the book (Sherry at the Ball). Tunes from the Mendicino book, lots by tunes used by contemporary callers/dance authors, that have previously arrived in all sorts of sizes and formats, all in one place, just lovely! With enough patience, perhaps it will be available digitally, like books 1 & 2. In some ways, It is a snapshot of what is being danced around the US in recent years, though not all of the tunes (or dances) are new.

Sorry, bit of thread drift, but my enthusiasm switch went off...

Earlier books also include a thick volume "A Little Couple Dancemusik" filled with waltzes, tangos, and a whole assortment of increasingly exotic couples dances (there's one kind that changes time signatures every couple measures, and is even harder to spell). Also "Interview with a Vamper" about how to vary and improvise playing dance piano. Now known as Kate Barnes, this is a fantasticaly inventive musician, who has played dance music for decades with other astonishing musicians, whose band, Bare Necessities, has been the source of volumes of CDSS recordings - the kind folks dance to if they don't have live music.

I'll go back to being live music, and you can return to basic questions!

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 02 May 19 - 11:45 AM

I just ordered the green book and the couples' book. The couples' book is for accordion playing at home.

I don't haul the books. I type the dances and chords into Noteworthy Composer and print copies in a bigger font.

I have a friend who hauls her gear (flute, guitar, amps) in a rolling wagon. She doesn't bring a music book; she puts her laptop on the music stand and reads it right off the screen.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:23 AM

About Brooke Friendly: American and female.

https://brookefriendlydance.com/

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:10 AM

I must be thinking of someone else.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 03 May 19 - 11:47 AM

Probably the Australian composer Cliff Hostile, who used to write dance music where every measure had a different time signature. He was devoured by dingoes on a fatal camping trip.

A perfectly natural mistake, Mo.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:13 AM

I think I've danced/played some of his in a Euro session ;).
The name Gardiner floats up at me from somewhere, may be wrong again though!

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: leeneia
Date: 05 May 19 - 09:07 PM

I have given our leader a copy of Cecil Sharpe's book of country dance from 1916. (The book is from 1916. The dances are old ones from Playford.) She was pleased to receive it, but she did say I was feeding her addiction.

I haven't encountered a dance writer named Gardiner, though.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:33 AM

Yes, I have that set of 6 books. Book 1 is dances collected in English villages in the early C20, Book 5 he describes as American Running Set, collected by him (in the Appalchians?) the rest are his interpretation of Playford.
Some of the interpretations are now thought to be not how they would have been danced in Playford's time - in fact Cecil Sharpe changed his mind about siding when further research made it clear (he had to make something up, as the instruction cropped up in so many dances and he didn't know what it meant). His followers had got used to doing it what they thought of as 'the proper way', so he wasn't allowed to change it. So there are various versions of some of those dances. And the original can be studied online so we can make our own guesses

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:12 AM

Colin Hume has a good website, the link is to his interpretation of Playford dances etc, but there is other good stuff there too to feed an addiction, including some tunes.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:26 AM

Here are the Australians I was thinking of. Jon & Alwyn Gardiner-Garden

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:55 AM

John, not Jon

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:20 AM

(except bourees etc which I've danced to various tunes)

The "Ice Cream Bourrée"** does need the tune so you know it it that one. It does require more lateral room than a standard Bouree. And Unlike the Auvergne Bourees (wot I calls the Banana Bouree) you can't adjust the territory to fit the dance floor traffic.

**I have been told the proper name for the Bourrée but age & monogloticism defeat memory.

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST,watcher
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:26 AM

Mr Red -- Ice cream dance is the Bourree Tournante des Grandes Potteries
htps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7wOi5IbdbI

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 19 - 12:09 PM

Thanks for the link, watcher. That's fun.

(Your link is missing a t at the front. Should read https...)

Subject: RE: country dance question
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 May 19 - 03:10 PM

If not familiar with it, you can see from the pattern of the dancers - it looks like an ice cream cornet.